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我請部長 總部長好 請請部長委員好部長 今天兩個問題第一個問題就是我上禮拜那麼我在質詢金管會彭諸葳的時候我跟他提到我們央行有一項規定就是針對我們所有"},{"start":33.334,"end":59.008,"text":"銀行那貸款給建商這種空地貸款有個限令就是空地貸款必須在18個月內一年半當中取得建造來開工這是貸款的條件那這個規定行之十數年、二十年之久啦那結果我問了一下"},{"start":61.494,"end":87.041,"text":"這個各銀行我就問我們九大公營行庫就是說這貸款超過18個月還沒有開工這樣子的案件有多少金額多大結果我得到的答覆哇大吃一驚嚇了一跳總金額啊銀行體系貸款"},{"start":88.87,"end":116.635,"text":"九大公營行戶貸款給建商空地貸款超過18個月的金額竟然高達2180億之多啦2180億之多那當然九大公營行戶人家有的模範生像易營、像這個鍾小慶人家都是"},{"start":118.402,"end":146.305,"text":"十來億而已 很小的金額啦這裡面最大金額的竟然是我們公股百分之百關股的土地銀行土地銀行光它一家就高達1173億它一家啊 等於另外八大公營行庫加起來總和"},{"start":147.897,"end":157.995,"text":"還不夠他多這已經到不可思議的地步啦所以部長因為九大公營安庫董事長、總經理都你派的"},{"start":159.13,"end":182.538,"text":"所以我除了要求金管會要嚴加查查以外我今天就是要問你要問九大公營行庫董事長、總經理你們對貸款給建商裡面多數都是不孝建商才會這麼做貸款去買了工地之後擺著"},{"start":184.52,"end":193.863,"text":"不開工、不申請建造他擺明了就是買地、養地、圈地就是這麼簡單欸部長2000我把尾數刪掉2000億就好建地我們抓100萬一坪的就好"},{"start":204.023,"end":231.435,"text":"兩千億可以買一百萬的建地買二十萬坪欸也就是說我們公營航庫體系隨時啊擺著兩千億給這些不孝建商拿去買地、全地、養地並向的助長他們炒作房地產並向的助長不孝建商拉抬房價"},{"start":233.383,"end":244.013,"text":"難怪難怪我們全國各地不只首都而已喔你看這兩三年來房地產這個漲幅過去我們社會還有那麼多中產階級現在中產階級通通變成烏奴因為房地產大幅上漲啊"},{"start":260.351,"end":272.274,"text":"這大幅上漲背後的幫兇竟然是我們公營航庫最大的幫兇就是土地銀行董事長站起來董事長你站起來何董張總我不曉得你們來多久啦我今天把數字跟你講1173億你怎麼解決"},{"start":292.867,"end":313.662,"text":"到9月、10月好各少掉200多億額度減減個200多億這樣還不夠啦土地銀行不要拿這個當藉口我私下找你們問的時候你們說土地銀行是專業的建築公司、土地公司主席請再上來"},{"start":316.789,"end":345.4,"text":"我以為主席請他坐下不會啦謝謝主席那個你們的私下答覆說你們是專業的啊專業的建築融資、土地融資沒錯你是專業沒錯你借的金額也超大沒錯你總計你這些房地的借款"},{"start":346.55,"end":367.902,"text":"一兆4800億沒錯可是跟你一樣大的人家台灣銀行一兆4000也是800他多你還多你14億一兆4800億人家台灣銀行當然也不少啦也不少他預期18個月的142億142億剛好你的尾數你比他多1000億"},{"start":378.138,"end":392.935,"text":"其他人家330這個我剛剛講一人是摩漢銀行他借的也不比你少耶比你少啦他大概你的一半但是人家只有12億"},{"start":394.98,"end":413.396,"text":"那張瑩更不用講張瑩啊貸放債建築土地融資的一兆五千億超過你結果張瑩預期的金額也是你的尾數才148億所以你怎麼解釋這個啦所以那個那個部長"},{"start":422.452,"end":439.819,"text":"你是他們政治的母親啦你拉拔他們出來的嘛所以這件事我就交給你啦好不好好 謝謝委員我想這個部分委員所說的就超過18個月還沒有動工的購地貸款這個數額確實要給處理跟控制然後也不能過度的集中是"},{"start":441.243,"end":465.365,"text":"那就交給你啦好不好其他各銀行我就不多念啦那個比較多的齁超過200億的我稍微念一下何苦林董事長、王總經理你226億喔我讓你知道一下啦好不好跟義營、台汽營去學習嘛"},{"start":467.04,"end":489.828,"text":"問他們人家是怎麼控管的好不好他們有當一回事啊好不好合作金庫本來在我的名單裡面你們算是模範銀行欸結果暫時把你踢除啦吼好那部長我就敲給你啦兩位董事長總經理請回吼謝謝委員我還有第二個問題"},{"start":493.939,"end":509.806,"text":"今天第二個問題就要跟你談到說我們台灣我們國家我們台灣人民就是那麼慈苦耐勞我們的超額儲蓄率這幾年確實逐年創新高這非常的好我們超額儲蓄率從"},{"start":511.708,"end":521.819,"text":"大概5年前開始每年2.23兆之後都突破3兆以上到了今年預期我們可能超額儲蓄3.84兆"},{"start":524.983,"end":535.147,"text":"草原儲蓄率高達15.46%這個在避逆這些先進國家包括德國它才4.2%日本2.1%韓國1.8%美國更扯它是負數負1.8%那這些都是正面現在問題是說我們如何"},{"start":545.53,"end":571.081,"text":"把我們國家國民辛苦所得超額的這個儲蓄率跟資金如何把它引導到能夠參與我們國家的公共建設也就是說民間參與公共建設但是隨著我們超額儲蓄增加但是民間參與公共建設這個量能都沒有明顯成長我光統計"},{"start":573.854,"end":588.825,"text":"107人到現在這6年裡面從83件捧接的那一件有時候稍微增加到90幾件最高來到172件到去年才100件金額也都大概在1000出頭億今年大概去年總結1876億我為什麼跟你講這個呢就是說這裡面這個金額齁"},{"start":601.055,"end":627.978,"text":"我們還是財政部還是把其他法令參與公共建設的都算進去欸欸部長我現在列給你看了這個說去年100屆1876億你是把比方說他是根據大眾捷運法他根據國有財產法他根據都市更新條例這種獎勵的你通通算進去這些不單單只是"},{"start":631.374,"end":650.398,"text":"這個促進促參法的這個所以也就是說如果單就促參法而言我們那個成效更差結果促參法的推動我們不是沒花錢部長你編的這不是你編的啦你的前年他編102年到110年所謂的促參忠誠計畫花了7億2千萬"},{"start":658.783,"end":683.916,"text":"花了7億2千萬就要鋪通下去你看就是剛才那個成績啊沒什麼成績那麼花了這些錢以後兔餐法占民間投資總額不到三成只占24.79%我現在表格上列給你的右下角24.79花了那些錢下去欸"},{"start":687.124,"end":710.86,"text":"說只是去推動促餐法喔只是去推動喔就要花那些預算結果結論24.79%那今年又編啦部長在您任內你的任內不是今年編的啦前年編的編到114年為止要5億1000萬所以部長我就跟你說這"},{"start":712.56,"end":724.467,"text":"五億1700萬這是你任內的這你責無旁貸你一定要監督這一筆錢下去推動出產法它的成效是怎樣好不好部長"},{"start":727.379,"end":750.954,"text":"委員跟委員報告您提到差額儲蓄的部分確實我們是希望把民間資金都投入到國家的公共建設那促餐是其中一個方式當然也有依照非促餐法來做那同樣也是民間投資的譬如它依照電業法或者是蔣餐條例的交通建設等等都有那包含商港法也是那促餐法的部分在我們110"},{"start":752.475,"end":767.341,"text":"一年修正以後展開了所謂促參2.0我們會希望做得更大的一個部分那也一直都在相關的執法也都在訂定當中我們希望這個部分會加大力道來推動促參主席我一分鐘你提完我再跟你講最後的結論是"},{"start":772.475,"end":787.189,"text":"有要繼續補充嗎?我跟你講有啊你有做嘛你也編了預算是前一筆7億多的那不是你任內算再來這一筆這是你任內一直到明年這5億1000萬所以我認為這一筆預算你要嚴格去監督去推動是 是的"},{"start":791.934,"end":812.469,"text":"主要的不是那幾億啦主要的是要有成效不要再讓我們看到說什麼24.79%我認為啦參與民間參與公共建設提前終止契約是一個大問題那提前終止契約這個問題齁我統計了一下我統計了一下我們大概"},{"start":813.72,"end":826.372,"text":"提前解約的大概佔了12%每年大概實踐金額大概到1300億左右所以部長我是建議這樣來因為我們促產法是不是在推動我們應該納入"},{"start":828.963,"end":856.025,"text":"強制仲裁這個規定也就是說如果有這些爭議的時候那趕快快速解決要不然你比方說像比方說像屏東大鵬灣現在就爛在那裡啊結果我們政府也花了那麼多錢那擺在那個地方地方的民眾看著眼看著很心急光光沒辦法起色政府也花了錢那好在那邊不知道要拖到何年何月何時所以是不是促三法應該把"},{"start":858.466,"end":884.438,"text":"這個強制仲裁這個規定納進去以公共利益最大化為優先來考量好不好在初三法修正的時候曾經有想走強制仲裁但是後來因為法治上因為不符合因為仲裁必須是雙方合一但是也有說廠商提供仲裁機關不能去我們再用書面再做一般的我都會同意啦只是政府不同意啦"},{"start":884.718,"end":885.04,"text":"好 謝謝委員我們再用書面跟你們補充 謝謝時間委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1374,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時25分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長好，今天有兩個問題，第一個問題是上禮拜我在質詢金管會彭主委的時候，我跟他提到央行有一項規定，就是針對所有銀行貸款給建商空地貸款有個限令，就是空地貸款必須在18個月內即一年半當中取得建造來開工，這是貸款的條件。這個規定行之十數年、二十年之久，我問了一下，我就問我們九大公銀行庫，就是貸款超過18個月還沒有開工的案件有多少及金額多大，結果得到的答復讓我大吃一驚、嚇了一跳，九大公銀行庫貸款給建商空地貸款超過18個月的金額竟然高達2,180億之多，當然九大公銀行庫的模範生像一銀、中小企銀，人家都是十來億而已，可以說是很小的金額，裡面最大金額的竟然是百分之百公股的土地銀行，光是土地銀行一家就高達1,173億，其他八大公銀行庫加起來總和還不夠它一家多，這已經到不可思議的地步。部長，九大公銀行庫的董事長和總經理都是你派的，所以我除了要求金管會要嚴加查察以外，我今天要問你和九大公銀行庫的董事長、總經理，你們貸款給建商裡面多數都是不肖建商才會這麼做，貸款去買了空地，之後擺著不開工、不申請建造，他擺明了就是買地、養地、圈地，就是這麼簡單！","部長，我把尾數刪掉，2,000億就好，我們抓100萬1坪的建地就好，2,000億可以買100萬的建地買20萬坪耶，也就是說我們公營行庫體系隨時擺著2,000億給這些不肖建商拿去買地、圈地、養地，變相的助長他們炒作房地產，變相的助長不肖建商拉抬房價，難怪全國各地不只首都而已，你看這兩三年來房地產的漲幅。過去我們社會還有那麼多中產階級，現在中產階級通通變成屋奴，因為房地產大幅上漲啊，這大幅上漲背後的幫兇竟然是我們公營行庫，最大的幫兇就是土地銀行！董事長站起來，總經理站起來，何董、張總，我不曉得你們來多久了，今天我把數字跟你們講，有1,173億，你怎麼解決？"],["何董事長英明：報告委員，我們已經開始在解決，到9月的時候已經少掉202億，到10月的時候少掉了260億。"],["王委員世堅：到9月、10月，各少掉兩百多億？"],["何董事長英明：就是額度在減。"],["王委員世堅：額度減？減個兩百多億這樣還不夠啦，土地銀行不要拿這個當藉口，我私下找你們問的時候，你們說土地銀行是專業的，建築融資、土地融資……"],["主席：兩位請上備詢台。"],["王委員世堅：我以為主席會請他坐下。"],["主席：不會啦！"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。董事長，你們私下答復說你們是專業的，專業的建築融資、土地融資，沒錯！你是專業沒錯，你借的金額也超大沒錯，總計你這些房地的借款1兆4,805億，可是跟你一樣大的臺灣銀行是1兆4,819億，還多你14億，臺灣銀行當然也不少啦，它逾18個月未動工購地貸款是142億，剛好是你的尾數，你比它多1,000億！再看三商銀，我剛才講一銀是模範銀行，它借的比你少，大概是你的一半，但是人家只有12億；彰銀更不用講，彰銀貸放在建築土地融資的1兆5,000億超過你，結果彰銀逾期的金額也是你的尾數，才148億，所以你怎麼解釋這個？","部長，你是他們政治的母親，你拉拔他們出來的嘛，所以這件事我就交給你，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，委員所說超過18個月還沒有動工的購地貸款，這個數額確實要處理跟控制，也不能過度的集中。"],["王委員世堅：那就交給你啦，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：其他各銀行，我就不多唸啦，比較多的超過200億的，我稍微唸一下。合庫林董事長、王總經理，你們是260億，我讓你們知道一下啦，好不好？跟一銀和臺企銀學習嘛，問他們是怎麼控管的，好不好？"],["林董事長衍茂：是。"],["王委員世堅：他們有當一回事啊！合作金庫本來在我的名單裡面算是模範銀行，現在只好暫時把你剔除啦。部長，我就交給你啦，兩位董事長、總經理請回。","部長，我還有第二個問題。我們臺灣的人民就是那麼吃苦耐勞，我們的超額儲蓄率這幾年確實逐年創新高，這非常的好，超額儲蓄率從大概5年前開始每年2.23兆，之後都突破3兆以上，到了今年預期可能超額儲蓄3.84兆，超額儲蓄率高達15.46%，這個睥睨先進國家，包括德國才4.2%，日本2.1%，韓國1.8%，美國更扯是負數-1.8%。這些都是正面，現在問題是我們國家國民辛苦所得超額的儲蓄率跟資金，如何把它引導到能夠參與國家的公共建設？也就是民間參與公共建設，但是隨著我們超額儲蓄增加，民間參與公共建設的量能都沒有明顯成長，光是統計107年到現在，這6年裡面從107年的83件開始，有時候稍微增加到90幾件，最高來到172件，到去年才100件，金額也都大概在1,000出頭億，去年總結1,876億。","我為什麼跟部長講這個呢？就是這裡面的金額，財政部還是把其他法令參與公共建設的都算進去。部長，我現在列給你看的是，去年100件金額是1,876億，比方說，這是根據大眾捷運法，根據國有財產法，根據都市更新條例，這種獎勵的你通通算進去，這些不單單只是促參法的金額。所以也就是單就促參法而言，我們的成效更差，這個促參法的推動，我們不是沒花錢耶，部長，這不是你編的，102年到110年所謂的促參中程計畫花了7億2,000萬，花了7億2,000萬，結果撲通下去，你看就是剛才那個成績啊，沒什麼成績。那麼花了這些錢以後，促參法占民間投資總額不到3成，只占24.79%，我在表格右下角列出這個數據，花了那些錢下去說只是去推動促參法，只是去推動喔，就要花那些預算，結果結論24.79%！今年又編了，是在部長您任內，但不是今年編的，是前年編的，編到114年為止要5億1,000萬，所以部長我就跟你說，這5億1,700萬是你任內的，這你責無旁貸，你一定要監督這一筆錢下去推動促參法的成效是怎樣，部長，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您提到超額儲蓄的部分，確實我們是希望把民間資金都投入到國家的公共建設，促參是其中一個方式，當然也有依照非促參法來做，同樣也是民間投資的，譬如它依照電業法或者是獎參條例的交通建設等等都有，包含商港法也是。促參法的部分，我們在111年修正以後展開了所謂促參2.0，我們會希望做得更大的部分，相關的子法也都在訂定當中，我們希望這個部分會加大力道來推動促參。那還有一個金融產品……"],["王委員世堅：等你說完後，我再跟你講我最後的結論，你有要繼續補充嗎？不然就我跟你講，其實你有做嘛，你也編了預算，前一筆7億多不是在你任內，再來這一筆就是你任內，一直到明年，這5億1,000萬……"],["莊部長翠雲：國家的中長程計畫。"],["王委員世堅：我認為這一筆預算你要嚴格去監督、推動，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["王委員世堅：主要的不是那幾億，主要的是要有成效，不要再讓我們看到什麼24.79%，我認為民間參與公共建設，提前終止契約是一個大問題，提前終止契約這個問題，我統計了一下，我們提前解約的大概占了12%，每年實踐金額大概到1,300億左右。所以我是建議部長這樣，我們促參法在推動時應該納入強制仲裁這個規定，也就是如果有這些爭議的時候，要趕快快速解決，要不然比方像屏東大鵬灣現在就爛在那裡，結果我們政府也花了那麼多錢，擺在那個地方，地方的民眾眼看著也很心急，觀光沒辦法起色，政府也花了錢，耗在那邊不知要拖到何年何月何時？所以是不是促參法應該把強制仲裁這個規定納進去，以公共利益最大化為優先來考量，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝，在促參法修正的時候曾經有想走強制仲裁。"],["主席：部長是不是再補書面？"],["莊部長翠雲：後來因為法制上不符合，因為仲裁必須是雙方合議，但是也有說廠商提出仲裁，機關不得拒絕。"],["主席：部長請以書面說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再用書面跟委員說明。"],["王委員世堅：一般都會同意，只是政府不同意。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員。","接著請羅廷瑋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":172,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","王鴻薇","賴士葆","陳玉珍","羅明才","李彥秀","顏寬恒","陳菁徽","黃珊珊","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","王世堅","羅廷瑋","羅智強","洪孟楷","黃國昌","陳培瑜","蔡其昌"],"page_start":13,"meetingDate":["2024-11-13"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「貨物稅條例」11 案：( 一 ) 行政院函請審議、本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員張智倫等 17\n人、委員賴士葆等26人、委員蔡其昌等18人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等19人、委員陳\n冠廷等23人、委員陳菁徽等16人、委員賴惠員等18人分別擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條條文修正草\n案」等9案、(二)本院委員顏寬恒等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之三條文修正草\n案」案、(三)本院委員郭國文等16人擬具「貨物稅條例第十二條及第十二條之六條文修正草案」\n案；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部及所屬單位歲入預算部分。（僅詢\n答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部、國庫署、財政資訊中心歲出預\n算部分。（僅詢答）；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有\n關財政部主管債務基金─中央政府債務基金。（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}