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七成三採納貶惠之意見在履約爭議協調方面調解成立率約八成"},{"start":2230.885,"end":2256.268,"text":"提供專業鑑定及諮詢一百一十二年受理法院檢查及調查機關屬託資公共工程技術鑑定及諮詢案件計二十四件已完成二十二件二、確保公共工程品質方面精進品質管理措施要求建造單位落實檢驗停留點之檢查"},{"start":2257.731,"end":2286.313,"text":"提升施工檢核查核成效將職業安全檢核停留點橋樑維護及工程材料抽驗列為查核重點112年全國查核比例為11.62%需屬民間力量渡工112年全民渡工計845件皆已完成改善精進品質管理訓練"},{"start":2287.847,"end":2310.532,"text":"一百一十二人辦理公共工程平行試驗班及回訓班共三百六十八起培訓一萬五千兩百四十三人辦理土木直系公務連員集中實務訓練五梯次共調訓一百九十六人辦理金職獎鼓勵優良工程廠商"},{"start":2313.305,"end":2324.51,"text":"加速公共工程進行方面修正公共工程經費估算手冊掌握工建計劃執行進度112年列管388項經費6787.42億元整體達成率96.21%主動協處工建計劃管控停工解約工程"},{"start":2342.732,"end":2369.298,"text":"協助排除困難重新發報管控延遲付款案件廠商通報列管23件已經付款賊案16件其他案件持續協處中4、健全公共工程管理方面確保公共工程安全衛生定定施工防患施工中御利、哀、行糧、吊放"},{"start":2371.291,"end":2400.254,"text":"後翻錄風險之作業主引．調索型橋樑設計施工維護階段應注意事項．請各機關配合辦理．強化公共設施維護管理．有效管理活用公共設施．訂定公共設施有效管理使用作業要點．要求設施管理機關主動清查．落實活用公共設施．"},{"start":2401.721,"end":2409.664,"text":"加速地方災後復健工程加速審議災後復健工程即核類復健工程2608件經費182.41億元強化關鍵基礎設施CRI安全防護與保安防護工作"},{"start":2424.209,"end":2451.283,"text":"吳推行工程永續發展方面．落實公共工程節能減碳．定班公共工程節能減碳．檢核注意事項．要求工程主辦機關於生命週期．落實節能減碳做法．定期追蹤提報．鼓勵廠商自主宣告碳排量．機關填泡使用大宗資材之碳排量．"},{"start":2452.469,"end":2472.902,"text":"推動再生力量運用與公共工程成立再生力量運用與公共工程跨部會推動小組推動與公共工程妥適運用再生力量強化公共工程生態檢核作為完成公共工程生態檢核資訊公開作業指引6、協調解決工程問題方面從源頭解決"},{"start":2480.377,"end":2497.278,"text":"營建材料及缺工問題以源頭管控方式每月檢視砂石供給平衡充分供應砂石營造業人力以遍地勞工為主放寬公共工程引進外籍勞工維護"},{"start":2500.536,"end":2523.835,"text":"離清流標原因與因應協處．召開340餘案檢討會議．辦理計五十五場說明會．進行宣導及雙向交流．訂定道路塌陷及臨防基礎操工之防範指引．及工程高空作業災害之防範指引"},{"start":2525.592,"end":2532.197,"text":"中央地方建設協調事項協調新北市宜蘭縣及屏東縣相關案件至113年2月已召開80次會議協調185案的案件其他相關業務事項"},{"start":2545.888,"end":2557.914,"text":"落實公共工程設計建造施工與全責執行通盤檢討修正公共工程專業技師簽證規則技師受託實際辦理與病科技術相關事務方得簽證與事負責協助工程產業擴展海外市場112年國內七大輸出國團隊及拓展業者於新南向"},{"start":2576.258,"end":2604.973,"text":"區域得標39件約319億元．於公共工程建設之推動與民眾福祉息息相關並為國家經濟發展之主要動力便會持續推動協助各機關排除公共工程上所遭遇之困難與障礙讓公共工程順利推動並讓品質更為提升以上報告進行主席及各位先進主教謝謝"},{"start":2607.365,"end":2617.998,"text":"謝謝吳主委的業務報告目前在場委員已逐3人進行議事錄之處理請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有錯誤或遺漏之處議事錄確定"},{"start":2625.482,"end":2651.447,"text":"現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記與10點30分截止各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第一位林沛翔委員發言"},{"start":2662.892,"end":2665.413,"text":"吳主委首先本席先要肯定我們公共工程委員會在與監督行政院各部會的工程跟協定審定我們的契約不過本席要特別在這邊先提醒公共工程委員會"},{"start":2689.625,"end":2717.071,"text":"因為物價的浮動還有最近我們近年來常常看到很多公共工程的氣標案常常發生所以還請公共工程委員會特別注意各大公共工程的進度甚至說有關標案來講的話本席是認為說以這個最有利標精神來促進各個公共工程的進度是我認為比較在這個目前這個世代是比較合理的做法"},{"start":2717.987,"end":2727.239,"text":"再來既然說我們公共工程委員會有協助審定契約的功能那本席就想請教一下請問OT跟ROT案有什麼不同?"},{"start":2730.56,"end":2731.741,"text":"他主要經過契約的變更程序"},{"start":2756.226,"end":2782.505,"text":"那這個是要有一個法定程序才能做變更吧?他有一個程序去做變更那有沒有真相的先例就是經過法定程序之後合理變更的呢?要看他的實際需求那所以說以主委的經驗以主委的專業來判斷的話OT案改成ROT都是要經過一定的法定程序不能說改就改對吧?"},{"start":2783.893,"end":2797.982,"text":"呃要看他的個案的需求如果需要變更他要按照程序辦理變更要有個程序在嗎OK那不好意思那就請問因為我是基隆來的立法委員那基隆的東岸商場這個"},{"start":2799.463,"end":2799.563,"text":"那我想請 請說"},{"start":2829.68,"end":2856.356,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是畜餐的業務那麼現在已經是在屬於財政部的業務主管所以畜餐這一塊現在我們工程會沒有在這個接觸不過以以前的慣例來講還是要經過一個法定的程序才能確認說這個OT案雖然是ROT可能對於整個城市也是有幫助的但是不管怎麼樣以公務人員四大法則來講合法、合理"},{"start":2857.616,"end":2880.27,"text":"合法、合理、必要、比例原則來講的話合法性這是有待爭議的對吧 主委我的意思是說從工程的觀念來看今天7月已經訂定如果7月的旅行過程當中有需要去改變7月的內容跟方式的話他就透過變更程序來辦理"},{"start":2882.227,"end":2910.9,"text":"好那比較奇特的就是說我們在這邊看到有一個奇特的點就是說基隆市政府跟他的如果在NET的案子裡面基隆市政府是屋主中間有個房東叫做大日開發然後我們現在另外一個受害者也就是所謂的NET主婦服裝公司基本上是屋主房東跟房客的關係那這邊我們就有一個疑點就是說基隆市政府"},{"start":2911.42,"end":2937.553,"text":"他是跟大日開發也就是他的房東簽了5加3年的合約但是大日公司拿到這5加3年之後就直接跟Net跟主婦商場簽訂10年的租約這是讓人家覺得很奇特的一點那我也想請問說像這樣的合約在公共工程委員會上面你們認為合理嗎?就公共工程這邊採購的企業來講"},{"start":2940.256,"end":2967.827,"text":"那麼如果這一個假以雙方以方的契約的這個以方的這個廠商他如果有分包廠商的話那麼一約也是可以的但是他也要報備要報備嗎?所以可能報備上面這個就是不見得這個就要看他個案的就是個案的狀況嚴格講起來就是在這個案子裡面NET跟基隆市政府沒有直接關係因為他是大熱開發的協力廠商"},{"start":2969.406,"end":2987.739,"text":"是沒有但是他如果分包有報備的話他也連帶有他的權利義務關係我為什麼會把這個案子特地拿出來講的原因是說像這樣的案子我們以如果不把它政治化的話這是一個在公共工程在合約上面會變成是未來在"},{"start":2988.559,"end":3003.607,"text":"全國的一個範例一個先例如果今天我們可以看到說一個房客可以約一個房客一個私人企業體可以從中間經過房東經過他們的他們的開發商一個合約開發商就可以暫時認定說"},{"start":3006.448,"end":3027.553,"text":"政府的土地政府的產權是屬於他們私人的那這會開一個先例在我們所在我們所知道的行政體系裡面也就是說如果未來這個先例一開我們會看到任何的自身自稱是悠揚廠商直接在我們國有土地上隨便新建一個物品新建一個建物之後就自行宣稱產權"},{"start":3029.233,"end":3037.177,"text":"是屬於他們的所以為什麼今天在公共工程委員會我要第一個發言請教主委的原因在這裡謝謝主委的回答好謝謝林佩祥委員質詢接下來請黃建豪委員質詢好謝謝主席我們請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":3063.601,"end":3089.326,"text":"委員你好主委好主委感謝公共工程會長期在臺灣的工程界跟物價的波動上面取到穩定的作用但我讓今天我看到專案報告的首要的最終的業務當然提到了所謂的政府採購法那大概有幾件事情我想就教一下我們主委政府採購法的第4條第一項裡面提到這個法人或團體接受機關補助辦理採購"},{"start":3091.306,"end":3114.922,"text":"那這個補助金額占採購金額半數以上的話他其實是適用這個政府採購法的規定這一條嘛好主委那我們大家請教一下這個去年喔鬧得沸沸揚揚的這個雞蛋的採購案其中涉及的單位就是這個續產會反正續產會對外採購是否合法在當初的新聞裡面我們看到一句話所以才今天特別來這個來詢問來質詢"},{"start":3118.184,"end":3140.134,"text":"當初續產會跟農業部有特別來洽詢過我們這個公共工程委員會來確認說他到底適不適用這個採購法那這個工程會當初的回應是指說這個續產會他是屬於這個法人但是我們的這個採購法只適用於機關那我們就要問了在續產會這案子上面"},{"start":3143.157,"end":3147.344,"text":"續產會的這個案子上面他的這個定位是法人還是機關是由誰來認定?"},{"start":3151.96,"end":3170.229,"text":"在法令上面採購法有採購法的規定那扁會是針對採購法來做解釋另外民團法有民團法的這個這個他的法令的依據所以這個部分就由他們來這個解釋所以解釋機關是誰?就是當這個該案的主管機關"},{"start":3176.676,"end":3199.07,"text":"所以續產會是機關還是法人是由誰認定是農業部認定還是公共工程會認定那公共工程會不就是可是公共工程會如果負責採購法的話你們應該是採購法的主管機關吧那採購機關主管機關如果你是主管機關為什麼不是由你們來認定如果你們要放棄這樣的權利為什麼今天要特別提這個事情因為續產會的這個資金結構裡面來看的話"},{"start":3203.553,"end":3224.494,"text":"還要提到這個工程會為什麼是法人而不是機關是因為他以自有資金購買財物不是用這個採購法但是本席翻閱了這個中華民國相關的所有的法令在相關的採購法裡面其實我沒有看到這個自有資金啊自有資金的法定的定義到底是什麼"},{"start":3226.759,"end":3249.611,"text":"這個部分看起來在所謂自有資金的認定上面有一些大家看法的不同那在這個預算審查會議的時候由委員提出來要我們採購法也去做一個檢討好這個一定會提出來檢討啦因為你看喔續產會這個當初去買這個單的時候他是從農業金庫借來這個15億齁"},{"start":3255.434,"end":3270.588,"text":"這農業金庫竟然15億他把他當成所謂的自有資金但是農業金庫的錢哪裡來的?農業金庫的錢也是來自於中央政府的補助啊所以農業金庫的錢等於也是政府的錢等於也是人民納稅錢"},{"start":3271.869,"end":3272.449,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":3295.595,"end":3321.717,"text":"委員會的這個監督也可以規避國會的監督那如果這一套邏輯能夠成立的話我想未來其他的各單位各部會他都可以去成立所謂的法人來規避相關的只要反正我只要說我是法人那雖然我的資金來源九成全部來自於政府甚至九成多全部來自於政府那這樣子的話是不是工程會就無法用採購法來要求或來監督他主委"},{"start":3322.677,"end":3349.244,"text":"對 這個部分就變成這個自由資金來源是從這個個案還是從他整體的東西的認定那這個部分上一次在預算審查會議委員會委員有提出建議我現在正在檢討當中那你們檢討的因為已經 因為把它做一個釐清到底是從個案還是從整體性來看你們這個檢討的這個時間點就到底什麼時候會提出一個比較完整的"},{"start":3350.728,"end":3374.413,"text":"的說法我們現在正在進行這個東西我還要邀請相關的機關來探討你有時間表嗎主委你有時間表這個會期會有嗎對於自由資金怎麼認定對於像相關我提到的這個任何一個法人或任何的社團接受政府的捐助他就不受工程會不受採購法的這個適用這個檢討什麼時候會有我盡量在這個會期盡量"},{"start":3380.614,"end":3407.015,"text":"主委那我記得了這會議記錄這個會期好主委謝謝這是第一個我希望說工程會還是要提出相關的說法跟版本啦要強化政府採購法的監督不然如果以後每一個單位都給你捐助一個法人出來然後讓他自由的採購完全不受政府採購法的監督的話其實那等於整個預算法整個採購法就形同虛設了好主委那下一個部分時間不多剩20秒我要提一下"},{"start":3408.439,"end":3434.019,"text":"台灣的道路工程在這個工程會的評鑑裡面我們夾等的道路在去年去年全年度平等的道路是零原來台灣的道路品質這麼優良這麼優秀所以我想工程會在這個查核上面應該要更確實去落實說怎麼樣來查核這個道路品質因為我想跟這個民眾的感受很大的落差去年查的幾乎都夾等"},{"start":3435.36,"end":3443.131,"text":"沒有冰凍的欸可是我想到這個地方上很多道路其實是非常不優惠不離我倆的道路狀況啊86%對啊86%啊那還有剩下你說什麼東西86%"},{"start":3446.837,"end":3447.097,"text":"委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":3476.957,"end":3505.329,"text":"那扣掉酒駕之後其實有很多這個道路自摔你如果從警察局調閱資料因為我從義援出生的我們調閱很多相關資料很多的自摔案件是來自於說道路不平整道路這個水溝蓋不平整等等的原因導致他自摔所以你看去年的這個道安統計裡面有這麼多機車騎士是因為道路不平整導致自摔的這個結果發生但是我們回過頭來看工程會在評鑑全國各地方的道路主要道路的時候"},{"start":3506.129,"end":3527.561,"text":"平等的道路居然是零我想平等道路是零這件事情我覺得在這個民眾的觀感上面在真實的社會上面是有一定的問題的所以我想這個工程會要去檢討是說當然如果道路都是假等的如果真的是這樣子那當然是我們國國的榮耀但是實務上工程會在評鑑的過程裡面到底怎麼去執行"},{"start":3529.272,"end":3556.779,"text":"是使用後去驗收的過程裡面真的沒問題還是驗收前長一回事但是使用後發現了這個道路真的會遇到下雨遇到重車壓完之後它反而會變成凹凸不平所以導致這個道安的結果是這麼多人自摔所以這部分我希望工程會在評鑑上面要更加落實評鑑的結果要跟書記要吻合對啊對啊這就是我們希望的工程會希望能夠更確實去做到這件事情好 謝謝"},{"start":3560.709,"end":3561.691,"text":"謝謝黃健豪委員發言接下來邀請廖先祥委員質詢好謝謝一樣麻煩邀請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":3581.225,"end":3606.046,"text":"謝謝主委這個工程界的那今天質詢的第一個問題我想先針對一個採購的爭議事件來請教一下主委在數位身分證推行的時候那當然後來經蘇貞昌院長喊卡之後那數位身分證的政策先暫停那後來廠商有提履歷爭議對不對"},{"start":3607.555,"end":3626.86,"text":"就是在去年的新聞有提到5月多的時候那已經在我們工程委員會的條儲的會議要召開那後續的條儲結果不確定就沒有新聞露出了然後想請問一下有關這一次的社會身份證的採購履歷爭議場上酋長的部分有沒有結果出來了"},{"start":3629.642,"end":3642.426,"text":"委員提的是律師證就是5加5嘛律師證的那一個對那廠商應該有提一個吳議員的這個爭議嘛對不對去年我們同年那個聖書會告訴在1月今年的1月調解成立那調解的結果"},{"start":3657.915,"end":3683.324,"text":"就雙方同意依照他們的條件來進來解決他們的條件怎麼樣簡單一點政府到最後有沒有賠款給廠商是跟委員報告廠商本來請求10億多那經過我們調解後他因為有些部分必須在國外去數量必須去匯算所以我們整體調解金額應該是會在2億8以下2億8"},{"start":3687.725,"end":3708.201,"text":"那我想請問一下主委那有關這樣子的政府採購的一個缺失我不曉得你認不認同這個缺失兩個字但是這個結果造成了我們政府在推行一下政策沒有成功之外還要賠償給廠商兩億多的一個經費那主委針對這樣子的採購案您個人的看法有沒有什麼值得見到的地方"},{"start":3709.652,"end":3737.105,"text":"根據我的了解這個案子是因為這個要實施跟決策過程當中遭遇到民意的一些意見而變更這個做法是這樣的一個結果那當然要檢討的地方就是未來對於任何的政策要在實施之前應該要做好更廣泛的溝通避免在實施過程當中再產生不同的民意的反應"},{"start":3737.945,"end":3758.912,"text":"那造成這樣子的結果有沒有會有任何的懲處的一個機制或者說誰應該要對這件事情來負起責任這個部分就由這個主政的機關他們去檢討主政機關可是現在當初決策的行政院長現在已經貴為總統了誰可以來檢討他"},{"start":3764.9,"end":3792.038,"text":"這個應該是在機關這邊檢討政策不會到院長所以說就是時任的內政部長可能要來決定要檢討到哪個單位反正就是基層來基層來背鍋就對了也不是這樣一個數位身分證的一個這個全國性重大的政策推行失敗造成國家的損失結果居然不是由院長等級不是由部長等級的人來承擔責任而是由基層的同仁來"},{"start":3792.679,"end":3795.721,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3807.674,"end":3827.824,"text":"不會,一定會有人去對這個部分去做一個交代會有一個課則嗎?那我們工程會當然啦,當初因為我們就只是合約的政府採購法的一個算是一個上級的一個機關嘛指導機關那後續我們會追蹤嗎?有關課則的部分還是您可以跟我建議後續應該要跟哪個機關來追蹤?這個部分應該相關部會他們會去檢討"},{"start":3833.274,"end":3857.72,"text":"您有沒有建議的?我們原來就應該要去檢討這個問題所以後續這個案子有關相關的課則我就是去主委建議我去找內政部這樣子我沒有這樣講那不然我找在政府的體系他有該負責檢討的單位他會去檢討因為我今天是在質詢主委嘛對不對請教主委"},{"start":3858.3,"end":3881.793,"text":"那我想確認,所以未來可以繼續跟主委請教後續課則的問題嗎?還是要另請其他單位?委員要問我也可以,我會去了解好,那就後續再麻煩主委,謝謝主委另外第二個問題是,前一陣子有一個新聞是國手,籃球國手的一個保險的問題"},{"start":3883.322,"end":3905.79,"text":"那就是有國手就是對於國手培訓時候﹐比賽不管是培訓或比賽的時候的保險的制度有一些維持那不曉得我們工程會事後有沒有做一些相關的瞭解或是單位在執行上面支案來行的地方這個部分我在媒體包括在院會的執行也聽到委員有這樣的執行案"},{"start":3906.704,"end":3932.179,"text":"那我個人的看法應該這個部分是我覺得是不應該發生這樣不應該發生那我看我聽教育部長也回應委員的執行也會去檢討這個事情是好那我們應該針對採購法的部分他們一定有他們摯愛奶情的地方嘛那後續是不是也可以麻煩我們主委這邊麻煩同仁後續有關這個保險的部分來後續追蹤"},{"start":3932.719,"end":3960.996,"text":"有需要的話我們會來給你協助好那我再後續來請教一下那另外再請教一下因為我們的報告裡面有提到公共工程採購金額申請這個移工的金額嘛有降低嘛對不對那前一陣子也是國內討論度非常高的一個事件就是國內要不要開放印度移工進來國內那可能這個也會牽扯到我們營造的工程包括因為工程這個採購法都有一些相關的"},{"start":3970.255,"end":3990.251,"text":"主委針對開放移工這一項政策您有怎樣的看法?據我瞭解勞動部增加印度移工這個部分是增加來源國但是數量並沒有限定所以媒體在講說10萬好像不是這個意思"},{"start":3992.536,"end":3996.941,"text":"總而不變 組成方式多加一個國家 多加一個來源的地方"},{"start":3998.004,"end":4022.068,"text":"那麼對於移工這個部分從這個根本上在我工程會的看法就工程這個部分是我們原則上還是以本勞為主外勞為輔所以我們朝這個方向在努力那主委支不支持就是剛剛您架構下總而不變那增加一個印度也可以進來的這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":4023.171,"end":4044.616,"text":"站在公共工程管理的一個角度來看您支持嗎?增加來源國的管道我想我們是贊成的好所以主委是支持在總而不變的情況下那增加來源國就是在增加一個硬度的部分都一個選擇嘛好主委是支持的嗎?好謝謝主委那以上我今天的請教到這邊謝謝好謝謝好謝謝廖先生委員質詢"},{"start":4050.831,"end":4053.132,"text":"接下來邀請徐富奎委員質詢謝謝主席,有請我們的吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":4071.62,"end":4071.781,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4091.474,"end":4113.851,"text":"我個人的意願我是需要休息主委不過我想說本席這邊要首先請教就是說因為我們公共工程委員會一直在我們的這個行政院的組織法一直沒有很明確的一個定位那未來也一直存在所謂的一個主給的一個聲音那不曉得針對這個部分我們主委有沒有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4114.631,"end":4131.894,"text":"怎麼樣讓公共工程委員會有未來的定位甚至未來的功能性能夠有一個更多的一個發揮這個兩難從這個實務上面公共工程委員的存在業務上有他的必要性也他的非常重要的一個功能是"},{"start":4132.375,"end":4147.154,"text":"那在實務上面因為有這個部會數量的限制那麼有其他的部會的需求所以暫時用這種方式那麼來這個進行那麼也是一個不得已的做法"},{"start":4148.644,"end":4170.475,"text":"不過主委我想說這個未來還是要有一個專業性跟一個考量我想說不管是主改也好或是怎麼樣的一個定位我想公共工程委員會對我們行政機關是一個很重要的一個角色應該也不能這樣不明不白一直下去應該要解決對我想未來這部分行政院應該也要做一個思考"},{"start":4171.355,"end":4198.158,"text":"那另外我想針對目前我們各縣市面臨一個比較大的問題就是所謂的一個進度、工程進度落後跟流標的問題那我想主委長期以來也一直在協助我們各縣市在處理這個問題那尤其由我們的資料來顯示從108年到112年我們地方政府的公共工程的落後的進度從19件提升到500多件成長了將近30倍"},{"start":4198.658,"end":4221.358,"text":"那針對這個問題我想主委這邊是不是有什麼解決的方案這個落後的這個工程進度的列管一直都是我們持續在這個控管當中那麼我們做了很多的努力希望在這個預防方面那麼盡量降低它的發生"},{"start":4222.139,"end":4246.79,"text":"那麼我們在標案的管理系統上面發現他的這個落後我們馬上就會提醒甚至於我們會給予來協助那麼來跟地方跟相關機關尤其是地方政府我們來協助他們那麼來解決問題讓這些碰到的不管從流標到停工到等等我們來協助他解決一直都在努力當中"},{"start":4248.341,"end":4276.96,"text":"主委,不過因為我們屏東那個主委對屏東也很了解嘛我們屏東的服務員很廣而且有偏鄉跟原鄉的問題存在那所以我們目前的有一些案件進度落後的部分確實是比較多啦那未來,未來針對這些偏鄉跟原鄉主委是不是有一個更積極的做法或是比如說有些工程單價也不能跟度位去比嘛那這樣怎麼樣去協助我們的"},{"start":4278.04,"end":4292.95,"text":"現政府的部分來做這樣的一個努力盡可能不要流標或是delay的問題對偏鄉的部分變來就可以依照他實際的價格需求去編列那這方面我們也一直在宣導"},{"start":4293.931,"end":4310.196,"text":"所以將來委員在屏東這邊比較了解我們會來更加強對鄉鎮甚至於縣政府這邊怎麼樣去對他的個案需要去編列預算那麼讓他不要去造成流標我們會多多來做先導"},{"start":4311.941,"end":4328.886,"text":"當然我相信我們委員會很努力的協助不過就是說因為整個地理環境的狀況跟所謂的一個現在的廠商的一個能量的問題也是一個大問題那這部分工程會有沒有什麼比較更積極的一個做法來協助"},{"start":4330.387,"end":4354.447,"text":"能量的部分確實有這種狀況但是呢這個有兩類一類是大工程他會被這個市場的這個能量所限制那一個部分是剛剛委員提到的我們像我們偏鄉會不會因為他在偏鄉而在地的這個廠商比較少產生這個現象所以這個部分也是可以尋求解決的方式"},{"start":4355.794,"end":4381.443,"text":"好 那我另外再請教主委 主委之前有在媒體上提過您自己上任之後到現在已經開過將近300場的一個流標的檢討會那從這個數據來看 工程的流標的案件去年當然是最近比較少 但是還是有將近10%的一個都會的流標比例 那這個部分主委怎麼樣來做改善"},{"start":4382.912,"end":4402.483,"text":"劉標的問題我們還是認為在機關的作為上面他的設計有沒有符合實際剛剛那個委員提到的價格有沒有依照實際還有供期有不合理還有甚至有沒有發現標案裡面的一些條件不合理"},{"start":4403.143,"end":4414.821,"text":"都可能發生這個部分我們都已經在掌握那對於流標案件馬上就跟主辦機關來溝通協調了解提醒他怎麼樣讓他去解決"},{"start":4416.15,"end":4434.483,"text":"對,依我們評論來講,我們有的案件甚至流標十幾次以上,這件很大的問題,我們的懲辦同仁光是來來去去整理這些東西就花很多的時間,所以這個部分還是要麻煩諸位再特別再加強。我們會特別來注意。好,那我想"},{"start":4436.704,"end":4465.828,"text":"另外一個部分就是說我們這個廠商這邊也有一些相關的一些問題就是說從108年到112年有超過200件主管機關拖延工程款的案件而且是由廠商主動通報那這樣子的一個狀況會讓我們的民間廠商不敢來表我們公家的案這個是一個很大的一個問題也影響到我們政府的公信力那後續我們針對這部分工程會如何來做因應跟處理"},{"start":4467.279,"end":4490.04,"text":"其實我們已經有在這方面在努力一方面在網路上面接受廠商的陳情我們去處理那因為我們為了廠商他怕得罪這個機關他不敢講我們主動從網路上面發現主動去關心瞭解什麼原因如果他該給了而沒有給那我們會給協助"},{"start":4491.909,"end":4520.251,"text":"因為確實這個尤其我們每次到桂泥井這個案件特別多這個大家都會有很大的困擾所以這點再麻煩主委我們會來注意那本席是認為說我們公共工程委員會是統籌我們全國公共工程的主要機關那未來也針對我們的一個偏鄉跟原鄉的公共工程能夠提供更多的協助尤其是全國公共工程的一個招標的狀況"},{"start":4521.032,"end":4522.013,"text":"委員的建立方向來努力謝謝"},{"start":4548.26,"end":4549.86,"text":"許委員發言完畢．現在請林國成委員發言主委早"},{"start":4573.971,"end":4598.516,"text":"我想你也是工程界的尖兵那其實我今天要談的主要我個人的看法公共工程在整個所有台灣裡面不管是地方政府、中央政府所有的公共工程確確實實工程會是有存在之必要"},{"start":4599.758,"end":4620.54,"text":"主委你認同嗎我認同不要人心惶惶坐在這裡包括處長包括副主委包括所有工作同仁什麼時候要被裁撤都不曉得所以習委員剛才所講的基本上本席也非常贊成"},{"start":4621.775,"end":4641.461,"text":"但是有一點主委在這裡主管的這些契約公共工程的這些品質還有爭議最後解釋法律的這三大立場基本上主委你們現在是變成孤兒欸"},{"start":4644.156,"end":4664.525,"text":"1999年到確定要整病但是在主改的過程當中大家可以看經濟部人員增加交通部人員增加農委會改為農委部環保署改為環保部內政部新成立的數位部請問主委"},{"start":4666.789,"end":4687.907,"text":"你不覺得竹改孤兒就是工程會我要聽聽主委你要拿出你的專業還有擔當告訴我們在竹改過程當中不能成為孤兒基本上這個是有必要的主委你可以回答我為什麼"},{"start":4689.371,"end":4704.92,"text":"我非常謝謝委員對這方面的見解看得非常的清楚今天工程會的這個存在確實有很多跨部會的事情還有相關的協調的事情"},{"start":4705.76,"end":4734.072,"text":"相關碰到的困難問題都需要我們去預防去協調去解決那麼確實是非常關鍵但是我剛剛強調在現實面就是有一個部會的數額的限制產生這個問題所以這個部分我們會來跟院裡面來反映沒有主委我主要的目的你要替替我們所有同仁該爭取的該表態的你還是要表態"},{"start":4735.412,"end":4761.016,"text":"剛剛席委員跟你詢問的時候你說我個人意願你個人意願不再繫刃最起碼的話你要講真心話讓主改知道真正怎麼改才是正確這一點我想我建議這個主委啊你要有擔當把真心話講出來不要因為你現在是為官就不把真心話講出來這一點我想主改"},{"start":4762.212,"end":4789.983,"text":"我想多數委員都認為工程會存在是有必要的那另外一個剛剛主委又講到基隆市政府LATER的問題我說實在雖然這是一個促參條例而產生但是不要忘了促參條例通通要有合約有合約就跟我們工程會有關所以這個部分我還是建議主委"},{"start":4790.703,"end":4818.653,"text":"因為以一個基隆市民的立場：可以自己覺得說這個房產就是他的但是你以一個基隆市民來講這個房產是基隆市政府的怎麼會變成這樣呢我不管你用什麼畜餐條例或者不管你用什麼那個OT或BOT我不管你但是都有合約的存在所以我要建議"},{"start":4819.733,"end":4842.036,"text":"我們主委這個部分我不妨你可以把他們出山調理回歸其實合約的本質跟合約的合理不合理你們才是行家你們才是行家地方政府或者是廠商不一定是行家所以我建議這個部分"},{"start":4843.874,"end":4863.255,"text":"基隆市民的財產就是基隆市民的財產只要這裏面沒有牽涉到合約有明文規定通通基隆市民的怎麼會去變成是那個內特他們的呢所以這點我是比較疑惑所以我要見解我們主委這個部分"},{"start":4864.396,"end":4888.517,"text":"你們的專家拿出來研究一下給政府機關不要硬拗這一點另外一個我要主委答覆的就是我一向非常重視勞工的權利你們的這些合約裡面第一章你們這個63條這裡的內容就提出派駐勞工新租證明以後"},{"start":4889.198,"end":4889.798,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":4913.124,"end":4926.324,"text":"這個創新很好保障勞工基本上勞工出身我去關心這個議題我看到工程會有這個新舉動基本上我認為是OK的所以主委你們這個勞工的範圍"},{"start":4928.7,"end":4956.398,"text":"包括到什麼層次他這個主持是說他有一些標案他要派駐在機關工作的這個對我知道主委我的意思就是這個本意那個立法那個良善但是換為到什麼時候是只有工地主任或者只有他的經理人或者包括他所使下包廠商的這些勞工我要了解的是這個主委"},{"start":4957.233,"end":4980.672,"text":"那這個部分是不是我們來釐清之後再來跟委員講上面好 那主委我也同意啦 這個把它釐清到底是只有工地主任或者是經理人或者是要包括下包廠商這點我希望你給我辦公室一個回覆好不好好那接下來啊因為有時候主委我說實在來你看一下接下來看一下"},{"start":4982.895,"end":5008.108,"text":"公共工程我現在舉例啦因為你主管這個公共工程我舉例你現在看圖片引李倫貝香未伸手他的工程案已經留保18次欸那像我們旺大縣8次那那個環傳縣5次或桃園的捷運這個5次那你知道這是什麼原因嗎"},{"start":5010.041,"end":5019.746,"text":"對於流標的問題工程會非常的花很大的心思在上面那麼都會去了解那我們了解之後"},{"start":5020.816,"end":5044.127,"text":"我們覺得從結果來看現在是百分之平均91%以上是都可以提票出去的一成以下才流標那那個流標的問題尤其大工程比較多小工程比較少偏鄉多都市比較少這個部分我們都個案去了解了解之後"},{"start":5045.608,"end":5064.038,"text":"主委這個我拜託因為我時間已經到我希望我希望您把這個研究的結果把通案提供給我們本會的委員去做參考因為這個是跟公共工程這整個有關的這點拜託您一下可以嗎好謝謝您謝謝林委員現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":5079.827,"end":5084.391,"text":"好 謝謝主席本席邀請我們工程會吳主委請吳主委主委你好主委你好主委我們現在全國的列管閒置設施只有剩3件我看你的報告這樣寫恭喜以前都100多件現在怎麼剩3件"},{"start":5108.607,"end":5125.297,"text":"其實公共設施閒置本來就不應該本來就不應該啊我舉個例子啦我們台南龜園有一個公有市場啊二三樓啊那閒置了快30年了但是為什麼沒有在我們列管的名單裡面啊以前列管全國工程列管的閒置設施大概都一覽百見齁"},{"start":5133.959,"end":5154.942,"text":"自從我們工程會改變了,會不會是因為你改變了認定的那個方式啊?不是。不是喔?不然都改過了?都解決了?以前齁,我覺得以前那麼多是因為啊,他們都要報到工程會來啦。由工程會一個審核委員都去審查。"},{"start":5156.504,"end":5182.774,"text":"現在政府自己先選擇先決定這個算不算閒置設施需不需要報告工程會會不會這樣以前的幾百件是來自於媒體的報導或是聯名的反應說那個有閒置就把他列款是這樣來的沒有啦你自己的報告就這樣寫以前是這樣產生的啊你看"},{"start":5183.669,"end":5198.393,"text":"那後來我們引擎結果﹖抱歉我沒有做起來,你看一下﹖數字都來自你工程會﹖你都像媒體報導﹖後來我沒有亂挖﹖建築很多那時候應該不是你認內,102年,你還沒來,107年我現在是這樣子啦,就是說像我們地方就有一個公共市場閒置2、30年"},{"start":5212.133,"end":5221.642,"text":"那面積很大喔,我照片都拍給你看喔那為什麼沒有在列館裡面我認為是,就是因為現在是不是閒置設施由地方政府自己認定啊"},{"start":5222.853,"end":5223.633,"text":"主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":5252.055,"end":5276.26,"text":"就是說他縣市政府他自己先決定要不要報給你嘛那這數字怎麼會多 對不對我如果地方我當然就略管越少越好嘛看面子嘛 對不對啊所以當然報給你有借法捏報給你少那你承建的數字當然就少啊你看你現在全國閒置設置只有3間這合理嗎 這可能嗎"},{"start":5278.326,"end":5297.733,"text":"這是不可能嘛那地方政府不報你當然就不知道啊因為你授權給他啊他設施要怎麼使用他自己不用我知道啦他自己怎樣你懂我意思沒有啦所以喔我認為現在這個是不是已經不符合實際狀況了啦應該是地方政府人不理你你都要補開嘛"},{"start":5302.666,"end":5327.112,"text":"那以前是我們工程會有一個委員會在審查你算不算閒置設施那你需不需要列管嘛那現在沒有這個工程會已經不做這樣審查了就直接丟給地方政府了所以這個建書就會變很少了啦我們對於地方政府有沒有報的實在我們也會抽查你現在只是我們要抽查如果委員想這樣講那表示他不實在那我們抽查不確實我們會檢討那你就要去抽查"},{"start":5328.493,"end":5329.273,"text":"我們會來加強抽查"},{"start":5358.079,"end":5387.174,"text":"對阿,你只剩這樣阿,所以你現在這個閒置奢侈的數字我覺得已經沒有意義了,對你齁我們現在今年阿,工程會要開始實施公共工程的簡單新規定齁尤其工程會的報告裡面說今年年終,年終應該算落尾吧就是要鼓勵志願性的填寫啦,我們醫藥社會公共工程都要填寫他的排碳的數據啦,廠商都志願性的揭露啦那現在這個志願性的揭露你要趕快建立喔"},{"start":5388.444,"end":5411.871,"text":"工程會是不是說要自己建立自己的碳排放的資料庫目前看起來是沒有了才開始在規劃主要受理都在哪裡?主要都在環境部嘛那環境部根本也還沒有做好我舉個例子給你看環境部的碳足跡資料庫他現在只有列30種類別"},{"start":5414.08,"end":5435.287,"text":"其實還差的啦,你知道嗎?我們公共工程會使用到的項目多得不得了啦那舉一個例子,它這個水泥啦水泥的這個碳排放數字還有2014年那年代的受理都很久了啦我認為連環境部的碳足跡資料庫都很不實在"},{"start":5436.98,"end":5463.543,"text":"那麼現在我們如何來請廠商揭露就公共工程的施作的廠商他要填寫他的太盤這個我感覺你要推動這個一定要推動因為這個國際上的公約大家都要這樣推動啦但是你那個速度要快啦要不然那些廠商說你是要怎麼寫的我根本就沒有成一個參考的數字嘛"},{"start":5464.56,"end":5482.243,"text":"所以要落實碳排放的這個機制第一個你們要跨部會要去談嘛你為了碳足跡資料庫他什麼時候可以建立那我們才開始要求別人嘛包括你工程會也要自己建立一個碳排放資料庫"},{"start":5483.923,"end":5512.048,"text":"這是你說的吧?我不知道你自己收集資料還是要拿環境部的資料來 我不清楚啦那我這裡再舉個例子給你看啦你現在比如說環境部的有那個探足機的資訊網做公共工程他只列這幾項啦比如礦石啦還有窯業的製品可能像瓷磚之類的啦"},{"start":5512.992,"end":5539.167,"text":"塑膠、管材、水泥、板材、金屬製品但這些資料都還沒有落實所以如果按照我們工程會自己寫的希望在今年年中開始就可以讓廠商、輔導廠商自願性的來填寫碳排放資料我認為你認為我做得到嗎?"},{"start":5540.305,"end":5540.505,"text":"目前這樣看起來齁"},{"start":5557.721,"end":5583.701,"text":"我是覺得你今年你今年要推動啊要很要速度要趕快的要很加油啦你現在根本不可能啦一年至少有3萬件的工程以我們目前的標準啦至少有3萬件的工程你要填爆碳排放量現在這些現在現在施作的廠商他有這樣的能力嗎他有這樣的資訊嗎看起來看起來是完全沒有啦而且啊能夠進行查核廠商填放的"},{"start":5584.421,"end":5586.982,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5610.609,"end":5634.342,"text":"那麼你這個跨部會之間的以及相關的配套措施啊 工程會這邊希望能夠進速啦 或者要跟環境部那邊要做相關的一個聯繫啦 或者以目前的資料庫你今年就要開始推動的話 我認為根本來不及啦 好不好好 謝謝主委主委你對這個事情你了不了解啊 你知不知道 了解"},{"start":5639.793,"end":5643.774,"text":"林委員發言完畢．現在請李明哲委員發言謝謝主席 有請我們工程會吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":5668.743,"end":5669.064,"text":"吳志偉你好"},{"start":5698.543,"end":5701.847,"text":"昨天晚上我們桃園機場南跑道的稅休然後造成了造成什麼辦了什麼活動你知道嗎"},{"start":5716.602,"end":5731.779,"text":"正送香港來台旅客有飛到日本的感覺瞭解嗎?一個小時再送他三個小時可是我感覺其實這是一個安全的問題那淘機公司或者民航局那另外一個領域"},{"start":5733.479,"end":5758.339,"text":"我們現在談的是T3、R3真的是非常的急迫有這樣的一個需要而不像在疫情的時候感覺沒有什麼客人來沒有什麼航班落地那種感覺那時候陶吉都說我們正好借這個兩三年好好扎實來改善一下這個跑道結果還沒一年當然他定期的稅休那我就想因為這麼急"},{"start":5760.492,"end":5782.066,"text":"我們當時淘機三航廈從原計劃經費746億那前幾天我們機場公司跟民航局來說他說目前預估至少漲三成那按照原始計劃這個比例大概會漲到四成多這個情況"},{"start":5785.879,"end":5786.039,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":5801.357,"end":5801.757,"text":"這案子確實從開始到現在"},{"start":5828.086,"end":5840.775,"text":"我講白話一點今天如果沒有這一個疫情恐怕更嚴重我話是這樣講我是很務實的所以我們一直在督促他們應該要趕快加速來進行"},{"start":5842.318,"end":5842.718,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":5872.418,"end":5899.245,"text":"其實我真的是覺得疫情過後很多的問題看起來真的營建不管是公共工程或者個人的營造工程它面臨的問題我覺得真的沒有太大的緩解一個大缺工的時代第二個在公共工程大缺錢的時代第三個可能面臨到以後居然有可能面臨到高風險的不管是營造或者運輸業無保險的時代"},{"start":5901.386,"end":5922.881,"text":"我過去完全沒有想到怎麼會有錢沒有人要去保的事情都要發生所以像面臨這樣的一個情況都會影響到公共工程第二個我想請教一下公共工程安全的問題像我們現在在簡報上面講的很多都是個人的工程可是我們發覺他都是蠻知名的"},{"start":5923.905,"end":5924.205,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5946.141,"end":5947.122,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5961.55,"end":5963.551,"text":"公共工程比較少民間工程比較多這個現象就存在"},{"start":5985.91,"end":6003.937,"text":"公共工程會比較少的原因是因為他主辦機關他有在統合、整合從設計、建造、施工解決問題、看出問題來做一個處理民間工程從設計、建造到施工"},{"start":6005.404,"end":6024.905,"text":"各自為政沒有一個統合所以我們經過檢討之後我們建議內政部應該把這個部分要把它統合起來甚至於連那個鑽探也是獨立的那結果資料的互相之間的連結確認很重要所以這個部分我正在推動這個部分"},{"start":6025.706,"end":6049.601,"text":"所以希望透過你這個會議你們專家的一個結論無論如何要提升工程的品質有時候我們做得好民間的企業也會去學所以我覺得互相的學習經驗累積非常重要那我今天要談的最後一個問題其實我覺得真的是危機因為在今年年初我現在已經辦了兩次的協調會第一次是這個兩次都是運輸界就是包括貨車"},{"start":6050.862,"end":6051.322,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":6069.312,"end":6083.717,"text":"可是不保不是說那一家的貨運公司他要出去面對可能駕駛是本身路人可能面臨到很多這個情況如果萬一不幸發生重大事故的時候是沒有人可能就擺爛了"},{"start":6085.339,"end":6100.106,"text":"前一陣子是租用車也不跑後面聽說還會像很多的像營造業我們很多的卡車很多運輸界他到底在我們公共工程或者民間工程是我們主力來載沙石來這樣跑"},{"start":6102.146,"end":6129.921,"text":"我想主委你幫忙真的要注意這件事喔如果我們所有的團隊有一半在過去這樣的一個保險的機制他都不見了我至少現在目前貨車貨運第二個主任業都面臨到保險公司不是不保是完全不保不是提高保費的問題請金管會協調他只能接應那現在的消息是我們營造公共工程"},{"start":6131.423,"end":6145.568,"text":"主委您也看到工商時報做了一個統計營造綜合企業近5年保費這些保險工的收入跟賠多少我們看到2023年保費的收入46.95億它的賠款率到達100%所以"},{"start":6155.707,"end":6174.373,"text":"現在也傳出了有部分的像公共工程也好他們很多人就是不太願意產險工會他們業者不太願意去保當然他講主要的理由因為國際債保市場他們也覺得風險在高了我們要去轉嫁這風險原本可以轉嫁"},{"start":6175.413,"end":6175.593,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6200.933,"end":6200.953,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":6219.85,"end":6237.429,"text":"如果這個事情真的確實落實發生在我們公共工程上面也就是說公共工程發生什麼意外災害對於我們自己在界內的勞工朋友他的保險可能不足對於在外面可能影響到的零損"},{"start":6238.59,"end":6239.01,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6266.857,"end":6268.519,"text":"盧委員發言完畢我們現在請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":6289.676,"end":6295.471,"text":"謝謝主席,昆喆召委,我們請主委,要不要喝口水沒關係,我們可以等會請吳主委"},{"start":6301.849,"end":6318.9,"text":"主委好剛剛盧委員講的那一件事情在實務面上事實上是這幾年真的很嚴重的情況我覺得公共工程委員會真的是要馬上立即即刻的去跨部會解決接著還有一個是需要我們公共工程委員會也必須要積極去面對而且要跨部會去探討是什麼我們氣候變遷因應法在112年修法過後立法了應該這樣講那立法了之後我們要"},{"start":6330.828,"end":6331.809,"text":"我看到我們公共工程委員會在這方面說實在的我覺得還可以更好"},{"start":6348.002,"end":6355.81,"text":"還可以更有效率像這一次3月10日到14日我們立法院也有一團國會議員團要去日本去參加亞太國會議員聯合會的第52屆的會員代表大會但事實上這一次大會它的主題也是什麼"},{"start":6365.519,"end":6392.681,"text":"也是我們的氣候變遷的這個環境之下未來我們所有這個跨國際之間的一些的一個因應大家要互相交流那我們今天當然是聚焦在國內的公共工程那我就要想要請教這個主委在氣候變遷因應法三讀通過之前呢我就在你們的網路上有爬書到我們過去有所謂的政策白皮書然後呢98到102年有找到一個"},{"start":6394.582,"end":6396.223,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":6420.124,"end":6445.682,"text":"顧算的編列手冊的總則裡面原則性的有開始在做開始在進步可是我就必須要問主委這個原則性的東西我跟你講還是讓我們基層的第一線的執行的公務人員或是地方政府很難辦為什麼我們必須要去了解第一個我們目前可以做探檢核或是探足機的第三方驗證單會有哪些"},{"start":6448.334,"end":6468.829,"text":"這是一個我們必須要去面對的問題你不能只公布了一個原則結果呢你根本找不到你知道我們一年有多少萬件的公共工程在進行主委你知道嗎4萬件那你要求我們在1億元以上的公共工程都必須要做碳減合"},{"start":6469.79,"end":6490.138,"text":"去爬梳他們所有的探足機那誰來做這第三方驗證單位有哪些這個有沒有揭露公開資訊讓所有的各地方政府也好各行政單位也好執行單位跟所謂的業界包商大家都能夠找得到這是專業的問題第二個"},{"start":6494.281,"end":6508.598,"text":"我們公共工程委員會在這一方面還必須要求什麼各行政機關要去訂定檢核機制跟檢探目標那現在我看到你們有訂了原則都訂了指引也講了但是呢我們的進度"},{"start":6511.038,"end":6538.536,"text":"我們的進度你有要求各行政單位要提進度跟時程嗎?我不知道因為我在任何的資料上我看不到第三個各部會這個是專業的問題各部會各單位有所謂的探檢核的專業人員嗎?第一線上執行的因為我看到後面等一下為什麼我要講這個工程採購的時候你要求第一線的這些公務人員在辦的時候你要求他怎麼檢核他怎麼落實"},{"start":6541.238,"end":6569.653,"text":"他完全沒有經驗沒有背景沒有相關的專業那我想當然而揣測啦就只好去委外啦那委外就會回到我剛剛講的那個業界能夠做的單位有哪些單位能量足嗎第4個除了我們自己行政部門要要求自己要做之外那我們發報出去了之後產業界又是如何在執行"},{"start":6571.254,"end":6572.749,"text":"這些都是問題,主委你有沒有想過?"},{"start":6574.766,"end":6600.555,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒我覺得碳排的問題是比較先進的一個立法跟趨勢的做法主委其實不是先進我剛剛給你看我們立法之前你從98年就開始有在做了有一些資訊來甚至觀念上的一個在要求了有一些"},{"start":6601.215,"end":6606.117,"text":"公共工程委員會必須要更進一步去做的是如何連結公共工程裡面看含量的估算的標準"},{"start":6629.326,"end":6641.149,"text":"又是如何?剛剛林俊憲委員有提到一點啦他說現在環境部確實有針對幾項比較大項的有所謂的這個碳估算的一個類似標準"},{"start":6642.435,"end":6662.14,"text":"但是公共工程委員會有嗎?我看到新聞是說首波是鋼筋業、水泥業要先來做因為他們也已經正在做甚至走在我們行政部門之前端那我們現在要如何加強跟他們溝通再回到上一頁我必須要講"},{"start":6663.5,"end":6691.089,"text":"為什麼提到這個如果我們的碳含量的估算標準是我們公共工程委員會跟環境部可以好好的做下來來一項一項的來把它講清楚列清楚而且寫清楚那未來你按照規劃你今年起所有政府電子採購網上面要新增一個減碳的欄位因為你強制部會要去填寫新建工程你要先預估碳含量"},{"start":6691.989,"end":6709.274,"text":"我說 這沒有填就沒有辦法完成採購程序也沒有辦法去取得所謂的工程的物料但是我現在就要回到說你要這個第一線執行的公務人員去填這個減碳的這個欄位他怎麼填他怎麼下手去填又委外是不是如果又委外可以嗎"},{"start":6720.862,"end":6721.022,"text":"這個部分我聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽聽"},{"start":6740.171,"end":6762.093,"text":"我們會來做出一套接一個換算的一個... 不會主委,這樣我先問你說按照規劃今年起所有政府電子採購網都將新增減碳欄位強制不會填寫新建工程預估碳含量如果沒有填,沒有辦法完成採購程序"},{"start":6764.318,"end":6791.693,"text":"甚至會影響到工程物料的取得好,如果按照你的規劃的話想必你已經有一套系統SOP來告訴各政府單位第一線的執行人員在電子採購網上如果他有新建工程他必須要去填這個東西問題是怎麼填?誰來填?我了解委員的意思我們會把它來做規劃所以現在有規劃了嗎?正在進行"},{"start":6792.546,"end":6794.407,"text":"現在進行所以沒有細節現在目前是一個宣導的階段"},{"start":6803.462,"end":6806.162,"text":"你都已經先公開宣布了這件事了"},{"start":6833.348,"end":6835.894,"text":"結果我現在問你第一個怎麼填誰來填有規劃嗎"},{"start":6842.318,"end":6866.761,"text":"有這樣子的專業人員嗎?有嗎?來,誰可以回答?報告委員,我們目前的規劃是這樣那從現在開始到20...就是116年都是在一個過渡期那目前呢我們的資料庫已經正在驗測中大概預估今年6月開放給廠商來舔那這個廠商是什麼廠商呢?我們會分批有比較重要的往"},{"start":6867.942,"end":6891.922,"text":"愈來愈細節來做,所以第一批碳排最大的就是鋼筋所有這些副主委你講的不是我的問題喔我講的是第一個問題你說所有政府部門的電子採購網要新增減碳欄位強制部會各單位填寫新建工程要先預估碳含量是"},{"start":6893.345,"end":6904.219,"text":"那我就請教你我剛剛的問題是這個表示這是由我們政府部門公務人員要填寫的所以我才問說第一個誰來填第二個誰來寫第三個誰來估"},{"start":6905.552,"end":6929.292,"text":"是,這就正如我們剛剛主委講的我們會從方案設計開始做所以一開始所以現在還沒有設計就對了不是不是我是說設計階段工程的設計階段所以工程設計階段裡面它最重要是建材建材占80%所以呢我們會有一個建材的探強度資料庫讓他去乘以他所使用的數量看看你會不會設計的方法來減少我們所"},{"start":6930.573,"end":6959.034,"text":"可是你們公告的宣布說強制部會來填寫不是廠商業者填寫不是設計的廠商來填寫我們會有一個那個計算的那個模型供我們現在建築類我們目前正在跟內政部的建業所合作他會有一個模型供他們來使用那這個模型要多久能夠產生我們正在努力中大概今年一定會上路所以今年6月來得及你說的上路嗎"},{"start":6960.363,"end":6982.921,"text":"第一階段的建材的部分一定會上路然後再過來就是計算模型而且這個建材的部分建材原料八八重乘滿重齁你們怎麼去分別類來做估算?第二個,你們剛剛具現委員提到跟我相同的點那各個工程的相關物料製成裡面的碳盤廠的資料的資料庫的建立這個你們能夠建立嗎?"},{"start":6983.935,"end":7006.387,"text":"報告我們目前的碳排資料庫是由廠商經過14067跟環境部的PCR所以我現在跟你講喔副主委包括你要跟主委報告清楚有兩件事喔一個是我們自己行政部門自己的事情喔一個是產業界業者的事情喔那我接下來要講你們公布說兩年之內八大類工程要先推那兩年做得到嗎"},{"start":7011.906,"end":7014.787,"text":"那你說兩年內要做到、做得到嗎?"},{"start":7037.618,"end":7055.828,"text":"報告委員目前這八大類裡面已經有兩個已經ready了一個是建築一個是水利那這兩個分別一個在內政部一個在經濟部他們都已經把減碳的指引那其他的部會呢那我們就是在未來兩年我建議除了我們政府部門要跨部會之間去協調這件事之外我覺得也要加強產業界的溝通跟輔導這是一定要做的最後的最後"},{"start":7063.001,"end":7087.216,"text":"有一個是你們可以先做的,最簡單的我們台灣銀行有一個共同供應契約平台這個你們都知道嘛,所有各大小的行政部門要做所謂的設備的採購的時候都會上這個共同供應的契約平台這裡面我覺得你們先可以做什麼先從小的做起,先從他們的減碳量的一個資訊的揭露先做起"},{"start":7088.277,"end":7109.726,"text":"在這個平台上面：各大的行政單位都要在這個平台採購：如果要推動減碳：在小孩子先走：你的八大類我也期待兩年之內：你們真的能做得到指引跟輔導好不好是這樣子我覺得要落實啦：要務實啦：才能夠推動政策向前走好不好謝謝"},{"start":7111.172,"end":7127.357,"text":"好謝謝何委員現在要請陳素月委員發言在這邊也做個宣布陳素月委員以及在場的邱若驊委員發言完畢之後我們休息10分鐘現在請陳委員發言謝謝主席請主席邀請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":7145.393,"end":7160.713,"text":"委員早安在剛剛主委的這個報告裡面有提到就是推動工程的永續發展是我們工程會的一個施政重點那在這個部分其中這個推動公共工程的節能減碳更是首要的"},{"start":7161.413,"end":7163.555,"text":"公共工程節能減碳減核的注意事項"},{"start":7187.575,"end":7207.649,"text":"進行,那我們工程會也希望就是說以身作則在工程這個公共工程的部分來率先做起那因為我們也看到整個公共工程年碳排放量可以說是占台灣整體的這個碳排放量將近一成所以如果說我們在公共工程的這個減碳的這部分能夠"},{"start":7210.331,"end":7226.085,"text":"打倒有這個效益的話當然對整個就是減碳就是包括就是在2030年我們要就是依據溫室氣體減量及管理法要達到20%這個部分應該也是會有一些效益跟幫助"},{"start":7226.846,"end":7226.946,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7243.863,"end":7267.398,"text":"已經預計在今年3月就是要上線有關這個電子採購網要新增減碳的這個欄位那這個部分是指我們業務單位在工程招標的時候要新增的欄位對不對對那所以我覺得說在這個部分就是說我們要推動公共工程的減冷減碳我想牽涉的部分可能有三個"},{"start":7268.7,"end":7268.86,"text":"公務人員．"},{"start":7286.283,"end":7313.965,"text":"他有沒有辦法去填這個估算這個減碳的一個數字那他填的數字是不是合理那是不是會造成廠商他來投標的時候有沒有辦法達到這樣子的一個標準這個都是息息相關的嘛因為我們現在要讓就是公共工程要揭露這個碳排的一個部分所以未來如果說想要來投標"},{"start":7315.025,"end":7336.914,"text":"公共工程的包括不管是道路、橋樑或者是這個建築體包括停車場等等的這些業者的話他不只是要比他的規格、價格還要比他的那個減碳排的這個量對不對如果說他的這個碳排的量沒有辦法達到標準那是不是就沒辦法得標"},{"start":7340.927,"end":7351.351,"text":"應該目前還不會到這個程度還沒有到這個程度我們目前是在這一個推行的階段還沒有到這個決標與否的這個程度"},{"start":7354.514,"end":7374.867,"text":"還沒有到決表與否,所以因為其實我們的一個政策的推出當然就是會引起相關的業者的一個疑慮嘛他們也會非常密切的關心我們這個政策的內容跟實施到底會實施到怎樣子的一個程度所以在這個部分是不是可以請主委再詳細的說明一下"},{"start":7381.927,"end":7394.66,"text":"我們會來針對到底機關要怎麼做、廠商要怎麼做我們要把它做一個很清楚的一個分工而且要可行、做得到馬上來推動出去"},{"start":7396.71,"end":7416.445,"text":"對 就是可行要做得到 那我們現在目前就是邀請業者可以自動來提報 就填報這個減碳的一個數字 所以在這個部分應該是會比較單純一點 就是包括這個混凝土業者或者是鋼筋業者他們可以去努力在這個材料上他們減碳的這個數字 對不對"},{"start":7420.207,"end":7448.705,"text":"對可是這個部分以後就是說在這個部分工程會有沒有也去考量到他未來會影響到的一些層面包括成本的一個提高對於加上這樣的一個要求我想會不會延伸出來對於成本的提升這個我們會來加以來做一個瞭解那麼如果有的話那應該從預算面要加以來考量"},{"start":7449.481,"end":7457.987,"text":"對,因為我想這個都是簽一法動全身因為你如果說整個材料因為我們要求要符合就是減碳"},{"start":7458.831,"end":7483.831,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7484.171,"end":7512.773,"text":"我們會全盤考量做全盤考量跟評估是好那接下來我來關心一下就是有關那個公共工程就是有關剩餘土石方的這個去化的一個部分因為在節能減碳方面因為我們也是另外一個部分就是要鼓勵這個循環經濟就是有關可以再利用的部分我們就是希望能夠回收再利用所以有關土石方去化的這個部分"},{"start":7513.393,"end":7539.231,"text":"本席也關心很久了其實也有很多業者會來配合我們政府的政策做去化的這個處理那在這個去化處理的過程其實也會牽涉到減碳的一個部分像我們水庫的這個淤泥在清淤之後然後很多專業業者他願意來做這個去化的這個部分可是他們反映一個問題就是說這個"},{"start":7541.192,"end":7559.89,"text":"水庫的淤泥照目前的規定是要先再運到一個堆置場、土質場之後他們再去那邊再去運到他們的鑽窯場來做一個處理可是主委你有沒有想過在這樣子的過程中增加了多少碳排放量?"},{"start":7561.124,"end":7579.823,"text":"那你覺得這個合理嗎?委員的這個建議現在內政部一定要調整修正他原來對於這個土屬方的去處他用一個轉運解決一切那個是一個漏洞那反而對於像剛剛委員提到磚瓦搖廠"},{"start":7582.085,"end":7585.429,"text":"因為我們要減少碳排放量就是要減少貨運的運輸的軌跡"},{"start":7602.768,"end":7619.808,"text":"所以我覺得說在過去在檢討這個部分一直在談可是一直都沒有一個進度那我們也希望就是說在這個部分主委也要來協助來解決然後讓這個實際上實務上能夠更符合我們目前的這樣子的一個政策"},{"start":7620.208,"end":7642.242,"text":"好 這個部分我會繼續來追蹤好 謝謝那接下來我再關心一下有關那個公共工程發包的這個部分那我們當然公共工程發包如果能夠順利的話就是有助於整個這個公共工程能夠如期如止的一個完工也是會造福地方帶動地方的一個發展"},{"start":7642.722,"end":7664.484,"text":"可是我們看到在整個決標的一個過程裡面就是審計部的標準是以第一次招標時就決標的這樣子的一個比例來衡量的話那我們也看到這個彰化縣政府是最低的所以他的留標率是算是蠻高的在留廢標兩次這是我們"},{"start":7665.144,"end":7684.832,"text":"公共工程委員會的標準就是在流入廢標兩次進行第三次招標以上這樣子的一個標準來看章花縣政府也高達了這個9.29%所以在這個部分我們也希望就是工程會能夠盡力的去了解然後協助相關的公共工程能夠順利的發包"},{"start":7686.733,"end":7692.441,"text":"是不是主委是不是可以 這個部分你們會最比較流標多的這些縣市會來給予比較個案的輔導"},{"start":7697.588,"end":7719.735,"text":"會流標當然應該是會有一些原因的可能就是說他在工程設計上或者是相關的條件上有一些問題所以這個我也再回到剛剛我們的這個碳排的這部分就是未來電子採購網就是你們要求要就是揭露的就是這個碳排的這個部分那這個會不會未來會造成我們"},{"start":7720.615,"end":7720.635,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":7744.04,"end":7752.066,"text":"陳委員發言完畢,現在請邱若驊委員發言。邱委員發言完畢之後,我們休息10分鐘。主席好,主委好,有請主委。請吳主委。"},{"start":7770.228,"end":7792.526,"text":"委員你好主委113年公共建設經費持續增加國發會今年2月26號的時候也表示過2024年整體公共建設預算近7800億創立年薪高請問主委工程會如何協助強化監督管理機制以提高"},{"start":7793.707,"end":7821.986,"text":"實行成效．確實掌握工程進度狀況．如何精進與各部會合作．持續監督相關準備作業．及動工前的相關準備工作．以利後續建設之推展。謝謝委員的所教。那麼我們一年來公共工程的經費的合度大概在6000到7000億這個合度範圍內。那麼每一年我們在"},{"start":7823.547,"end":7847.582,"text":"一開始就會要求各機關提出執行的這個進度計畫然後我們會加以列管那麼追蹤如果有這個一方面提醒他們事先應該注意什麼事情避免後面的執行遭遇到問題比方說用地要先解決等等那麼一些困難的問題像請照等等要先完成"},{"start":7849.282,"end":7876.148,"text":"然後按照實際的執行需要去編列他的預算然後他一旦有落後我們會加以來追蹤來督促來這個協調解決問題那全國推動的公共建設加上民間興建大大小小的工程目前工程量能足夠嗎?像是公務人員政府工程專業人員的量能能夠處理這麼多案件嗎?"},{"start":7877.788,"end":7884.392,"text":"目前看起來大型的工程比較會有廠商的未納量的問題"},{"start":7886.479,"end":7889.301,"text":"工程會改善政府工程流標的情況做得如何?"},{"start":7912.734,"end":7920.538,"text":"那劉標的問題我們很認真的在對個案連我自己都在主持這個檢討已經開過300多場的檢討會議那我們檢討起來其實是有這個"},{"start":7928.362,"end":7930.083,"text":"公共工程委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":7944.17,"end":7970.8,"text":"你編列預算有沒有依照市場價格編列你的這個供期有沒有合理還有甚至於有一些這個招標文件裡面有一些不合理的現象例如綁標等等這些我們都要求他們去改善之後那麼最後終能夠順利我們像我們在這個上個年度112的達成率達到96.21%"},{"start":7973.221,"end":8001.066,"text":"也算可以順利達成率是主委您也提到就是原物料還有缺工的問題那重大工程面對物料上漲還有原物料供應短缺缺工問題這影響到工期能否如原先計劃時程還有預算是否追加廠商有沒有這個能力能夠繼續興建那請問主委工程會的積極因應指導然後還有對於去年與之前發生的原物料供應短缺"},{"start":8001.966,"end":8023.416,"text":"影建能力缺工等影響到公共工程進行那已經做了哪些對策那成效如何?我們都從流標的這個狀況、個案分別去了解甚至於協調、主導機關怎麼樣去做調整那麼這樣一執行之後我們目前來看那狀況還算好"},{"start":8028.042,"end":8043.512,"text":"缺工的部分,跨部會要如何共同解決?缺工的部分早期對公共工程的這個缺工不引進這個外勞那只要還是要用變勞我們三十幾萬的勞工在營建市場"},{"start":8044.812,"end":8062.977,"text":"缺工的部分我們引進外籍勞工其實現在最早以前才4000個人現在不夠現在我們經過跟勞動部協調已經增加到1萬多到2萬的外籍勞工可以補足這一塊那算可以順利"},{"start":8065.311,"end":8075.54,"text":"在業務報告中提及到的主動協處工建計畫提及掌控部會還有計畫工程標案執行狀況提早發現問題及時協處解決並定期檢討執行成果請問主委可否具體說明相關的實際作為"},{"start":8084.428,"end":8097.395,"text":"這個部分我覺得在機關提醒他們很重要像比方說我們在中央部會的列管來看衛福部一直都在落後那我們就發現他兩個問題一個是對於這一個"},{"start":8102.18,"end":8116.537,"text":"補助型的工程他先給他核定了這個計畫跟經費結果地方還要再去編地方配合款還要再去做設計請照所以這個年度內根本不可能出行這些工程"},{"start":8117.461,"end":8133.94,"text":"所以我們就要求請衛福部分兩階段你要給他先核定但錢不要先列他可以去做那一些先起的工作那另外一類就是大型工程那大型工程的話土地還沒有取得他去編預算"},{"start":8135.961,"end":8151.368,"text":"還沒有耐震評估就加以編列預算所以他預算就足以不出去同樣應該要先核下去給他先進行那一些的先期的作業然後再核進位給他去發報施工這樣來改善"},{"start":8152.748,"end":8180.72,"text":"主委您提到地方各縣市已經動工或是正在爭取合併興建的公共建設計畫非常多以桃園為例本席來自桃園桃園改置為直轄市之後為了加速都市發展持續推動了很多非常重大的建設像是上週五3月1日傍晚的時候行政院有合併通過接應龜山中線可行性研究還有綜合規劃報告接下來也會進入發包作業"},{"start":8181.62,"end":8205.271,"text":"上週五本席捷運已爭取的捷運三陰線延伸至八德的階段的綜合規劃報告也獲得交通部審查通過了後續將進入行政院審議階段請問主委如何協助地方民眾期盼已久還有對解決交通生活等問題促進地方發展的重大建設如期如值的完成"},{"start":8206.192,"end":8227.172,"text":"那他經過這些捷運線經過可行性核定之後後續還要做規劃設計在發包施工我們會來提醒那麼這個市政府這邊後續做規劃設計的時候怎麼樣預先考量的問題讓他不注意後面的流標讓他能夠順利進行我們會主動來跟他們協助"},{"start":8229.935,"end":8231.435,"text":"7位委員發言完畢我們現在休息"},{"start":8283.53,"end":8297.848,"text":"議員吳澤成列席報告"},{"start":8304.087,"end":8307.33,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9308.186,"end":9310.769,"text":"好,繼續開會。現在請郵務委員、郵號委員發言。麥克風按一下。好,請吳主委。"},{"start":9333.361,"end":9360.343,"text":"你好你好主委你好本席想要就教我們工程會吳主委本席知道您是工程的專家也有非常豐富的行政經驗跟歷練是政治的前輩那我想請教一下就教主委在目前來講您做了那麼久的工程會的主委"},{"start":9361.164,"end":9384.779,"text":"中部是不是可以列舉3個你目前在工程會所列管最關心的一個重大工程在公共工程的列管上面我印象比較深刻的有幾個就鑽造委員說列舉3個第一個就是像淡江大橋淡江大橋的發包"},{"start":9386.66,"end":9400.871,"text":"預算編類設計跟發包沒有連結造成幾次的流標不順利主委直接針對三個列舉就好三個工程名稱然後還有桃機三行下也是一樣"},{"start":9402.602,"end":9410.708,"text":"另外還有最近在臺南發生的跨港大橋的發包流標的案子"},{"start":9432.703,"end":9434.064,"text":"跟主委特別提一下"},{"start":9452.003,"end":9479.106,"text":"在CBN2026正式上路之後那其實工程會期針對相關的指引跟作業手冊其實相信都有許多的一個探討那在探牌的部分其實在很早之前就已經是國家發展的重大的方針那所以說目前的三件還重大工程還在工程會期包括在行政院下是沒有做任何探牌的規劃那也希望在2026正式要上路之後"},{"start":9481.008,"end":9499.609,"text":"這個工程會可以針對相關的單位還有尤其是在國家的重大工程還都能夠來去進行這個碳指引跟碳排的部分那以及說包括重大工程的部分是不是在現在就已經有納入這個碳權管理師還在這個國家的重大工程"},{"start":9501.074,"end":9525.735,"text":"跟委員報告我們在公共工程來講碳排只是其中的一個部分那麼我們更重要的是對於公共工程的一個價值的評估在規劃的時候哪一個方案比較最經濟可以減量減經費可行這方面做得到的話相對碳排就會減少"},{"start":9526.536,"end":9552.759,"text":"好那相信主委您是專家所以說工程的品質您一定非常的清楚那既然國道6號橋樑當時是用碳能來去做一個設計來做碳排跟減碳那本席也期許未來來講工程會在相關的重大工程也能夠做好相關的這個碳排的一個規劃那因為相信這跟工程品質來講它並不衝突那同時就是在"},{"start":9554.24,"end":9580.088,"text":"去年底開始工程會也與相關的一些部會來去做一些溝通那我想請教一下那跟縣市政府有沒有進行這個攤牌指引的宣導目前還在溝通當中在推動當中那我想問一下跟各縣市政府有沒有共同跟縣長或是相關工程會跟縣市政府開過幾次會還沒有那沒關係那我們積極來去推動好不好"},{"start":9580.808,"end":9604.131,"text":"那接著我來提一下南投的建設在2016年還有例行產業道路旁邊的例行國小2016年到2024年這過程中其實它經過了八次的流標它規劃了四年施工四年到最後終於啟用那這個公共工程牛部化的原因到底是因為缺工還是原物料上漲哪一個是最大原因"},{"start":9604.651,"end":9624.981,"text":"我覺得原因應該是工程的變身他的設計施工的可行性那麼有沒有做到是關鍵那這樣子工程會再加把勁好不好那以目前來講全國的這個重大工程來講缺工是主因還是這個原物料會是主要原因哪一個排第一"},{"start":9625.501,"end":9641.646,"text":"我覺得原物料的上漲跟缺工他是一個趨勢但是絕對不是一個工程的本身的主要原因他這個趨勢那我們就要去克服他比如說你這個物料上漲我們就要編足夠的費用來給人家"},{"start":9644.527,"end":9665.717,"text":"從疫情來講這3年到現在相關的原物料還都至少漲了20%那我相信這個原物料是重要原因那我就想要直接就教一下主委那在缺工的部分這個現在目前來講要引進印度的勞工10萬大軍要來台那想請教一下勞動部跟工程會開過幾次會"},{"start":9669.72,"end":9683.564,"text":"開會的幕僚作業應該是有我個人是沒有參加他是我們幕僚的作業那幕僚是不是可以那據我的瞭解印度勞工他是一個增加一個來源國並沒有10萬的勞工要引進這一座畫并沒有"},{"start":9687.365,"end":9688.506,"text":"目前跟相關的單位跟勞動部有沒有討論過幾次"},{"start":9705,"end":9727.29,"text":"我們工程會有派員參加勞動部的那個審查小組的委員那在那邊就有開會好那我跟主委就是補充一下就是因為勞動部啊他其實他在報導上面他提到了他跟經濟部、農業部、衛福部、內政部開會他就是媒體工程會"},{"start":9728.05,"end":9747.001,"text":"那所以本身來講相信勞動部相關的引進外勞一定有跨部會許多的成員一起加入但是在針對如此重要的印度勞工他要來台灣的這個部分啊這個工程會主管是國家重大工程那我想請這個主委能夠要求"},{"start":9747.601,"end":9748.001,"text":"議員吳澤成列席報告"},{"start":9770.691,"end":9786.625,"text":"他開會沒有找工程會可能是針對需求單位再來談那至於引進勞工的來源工程會基本上是支持那我問一下營造業有沒有引進外勞的需求當然有那勞動部怎麼沒有找"},{"start":9789.031,"end":9804.718,"text":"所以說勞動部要檢討他需要單位是在那些部會工程會主是協調單位我跟你講協調單位也一樣會有用到這些需求那本期在這裡就同樣就是請我們的主委那也跟勞動部反映因為"},{"start":9805.518,"end":9825.129,"text":"印度勞工來臺我相信這個牽扯的各行各業那印度勞工來臺跟本勞一樣是有競爭關係如果能夠在本勞能夠就業在17月業務報告三天所寫還能夠補充到外勞那我相信主委的表態但是更要有積極配套好 謝謝接下來請李崑澤委員"},{"start":9839.83,"end":9842.971,"text":"主委你好我們都關心勞工的職業安全其實我們來看臺灣的職災的問題仍然是非常的嚴重如果我們依照勞動部職安署的2022年"},{"start":9867.18,"end":9882.824,"text":"相關的勞動檢查統計聯報來看22年致災死亡的人數總共320人這是5年來的新高那2022年只能施災傷害的人次達到13000人那2018到2022年施能的傷害頻率已經由1.27提升到1.49這是全國致災的一個嚴重的狀況"},{"start":9893.507,"end":9920.486,"text":"我們公共工程委員會在推動相關的公共工程的監督對於職災的一個要求跟保障勞工的這種職業安全應該是作為全國工程的一個表率但是我們來看非但沒有辦法作為勞工安全的一個表率之外我們的違規的建樹"},{"start":9921.755,"end":9932.586,"text":"都是非常的驚人你看公共工程違反治安法的這樣的一個比例2022年違反的這些件數達到17169件2023年違反的件數也達到15241件都是超過15000件的諸位"},{"start":9941.533,"end":9964.11,"text":"那樣態都是集中在違反第6條以及第23條第6條就是沒有符合規定的必要安全衛生設備與措施那23條就是未訂定職業安全衛生管理計畫未設置安全衛生管理及自動檢查人員我們看看職災的死亡人數公共工程"},{"start":9966.132,"end":9991.777,"text":"2023年32件30人死亡7人受傷2022年39件40人死亡11人受傷2021年36件39人死亡3人受傷那樣態都集中在於墜落墜落3年造成的45人的死亡還有物體的倒崩塌3年造成12人死亡"},{"start":9993.109,"end":10002.969,"text":"我一再的督促公共工程委員會必須要針對公共工程對勞工的保障必須要做好但是我們非常失望來主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":10005.703,"end":10027.792,"text":"委員一直以來對勞工安全非常的關心以及一再的要求我們在做法上面也把它列為除了加強宣導之外也列為抽查的主要的項目但是從這樣的數字看起來確實很遺憾不但沒有降低而且有增加的狀況"},{"start":10029.913,"end":10048.161,"text":"我現在我們必須直接來面對問題第一個公共工程的責任是必須要加強的重大職災的分析裡面其實我們來看它的原因因為不安全的設備或者是動作而離災的人數其實是佔了96%"},{"start":10053.898,"end":10077.399,"text":"我們對於公共工程的職安必須要來加強第一個要落實職安的查核要求工程辦理機關來落實政府採購法其實條之一就是我們要協助查核廠商是否有採取相關的防護措施與職安訓練這個部分來公共工程委員會目前的做法"},{"start":10078.716,"end":10096.835,"text":"這個部分的查核我們確實已經在委員的督促之下列為優先主要的查核做得不夠啦必須要落實並且加強第二個我是建議要分級加強查核我們要跟勞動部還有內政部來合作"},{"start":10098.917,"end":10116.06,"text":"就是依照營造工地按安全衛生績效以及營造工地的危險性將工程的現場來分級而且依據級別的不同來增加對工程現場的查核來這個說明一下目前的狀況"},{"start":10116.761,"end":10131.631,"text":"非常謝謝委員不但提出問題還提出建議的方法我們會來徹底的檢討怎麼樣來加強來督促這些機關免於再發生我們會來努力"},{"start":10132.271,"end":10150.183,"text":"另外就是廠商的職安規劃這是一個很重要的目標我們看聯合國對永續發展的議題確保勞工的職業安全永續發展跟勞工職業安全都是聯合國永續發展的一個重要的議題"},{"start":10151.744,"end":10170.011,"text":"我們對於相關的政策要求各機關要優先採用有編制永續報告並且對勞工權益、職業安全有具體規劃的廠商這個建議來說明一下這一個建議我們會納入考量來加強推動來辦理"},{"start":10171.832,"end":10187.483,"text":"我們剛才提到永續發展跟勞工、職業安全都是聯合國重要的一個目標跟議題那永續發展、聯合國的目標跟指標就是希望它涵蓋了環境、社會、經濟、人權的面向"},{"start":10188.163,"end":10203.139,"text":"而且他的ESG就是以環境社會治理三個面向來評估企業組織是否符合永續發展的一個目標當然我們也有相關的政策就是2050年的淨零碳排"},{"start":10204.72,"end":10225.156,"text":"我們的公共工程的碳排放其實我們也有相關的一個統計跟規劃公共工程2021年我們排放2690萬噸的溫室氣體那相關的都有這樣的一個例如一半混凝土連排放464噸約佔17%鋼鐵佔了83%"},{"start":10233.14,"end":10247.328,"text":"其實都佔了台灣的碳總排總排放量大概是9.78工程會也有相關的一個措施工程會也有一個碳強度宣告的政策"},{"start":10248.668,"end":10269.944,"text":"包括我們在事前事後範疇影響都有相關的一個過來來主委簡單說明一下這些我們是根據這個環境部這邊的檢探的政策在推動那我們另外還會從整個工程的這個規劃設計的價值工程會從這邊來切入讓整個檢探量會更多"},{"start":10275.208,"end":10301.23,"text":"好 主委其實我們來看看這個碳強度宣告政策其實我發覺有一個問題就是說我們現在講的都是營運碳就是工程進行中建築物營運後的相關的碳排放但是還有一個很重要叫隱含碳就是原料的提取運輸建築物的養護以及停止使用後的碳排放那"},{"start":10302.113,"end":10325.126,"text":"目前從工程會要求預估跟填寫的範疇來看包含鋼筋水泥製造過程的碳和使用後的營運碳我們隱含碳、原料運輸、竣工後的養護等等這種隱含碳被忽略了無法有效完整的反映出公共工程的碳排情況來主委說明一下"},{"start":10325.946,"end":10353.417,"text":"我同意委員這個建議應該要把竣工後的養護要把它涵蓋進去而且還要從計畫的時候的方案的選擇應該要考量進去我們對於永續相關的措施應該要持續的精進持續加整碳強度宣告就是剛才我們提到的要完整的評估紀錄營運碳跟隱含碳"},{"start":10355.558,"end":10368.549,"text":"這個會讓後續的資料比對更加的完善進而增加評估的準確性那工程會應該要跟內政部還有建議所來合作協助各工程的這樣的一個"},{"start":10371.394,"end":10393.263,"text":"透過協助各工程採購機關透過評估模型從設計階段就開始來計算工程的這個碳排放而且要促進永續的報告跟資訊的揭露那工程會剛才我有建議就是說要逐步的鼓勵工程採購機關要優先選擇有編制永續報告書揭露公司永續相關資訊的業者"},{"start":10400.796,"end":10424.313,"text":"包含永續發展跟勞工安全的保障 這個我們是希望讓工程相關的業者進一步重視環境、社會以及治理等等面向 來促進我們達到永續發展的一個目標 這個主委來最後讓你再講一下委員的建議非常用心而且具體 我想我們會把它納入進來考慮來推動辦理"},{"start":10426.193,"end":10441.223,"text":"主委那因為時間的關係我們還有相關的對於優化機關與業者的這個締約還有要將相關措施提升位階還有要加強採購人員的培訓優化機關與業者締約我們包含研擬敏捷式的開發合約的範本"},{"start":10447.318,"end":10462.25,"text":"另外要持續將相關的措施提升位階就要修正政府採購法還有加強採購人員的培訓要提升採購人員的資安專案這個部分我們再用書面來做一個資料的補充好 謝謝"},{"start":10474.568,"end":10477.892,"text":"好,我們現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝,慢慢主席請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":10496.514,"end":10514.424,"text":"大家好,主委老大我想主委大家都很關心這個2050的淨零轉型2050要達到淨零碳排我想這個全球啊在國際這些政界領袖大家共同努力底下雖然大家都努力啦但很困難"},{"start":10517.192,"end":10533.23,"text":"蔡總統也宣誓2050作為台灣淨零碳排所以國會提出了淨零碳排轉型的路徑等等其中12項關鍵戰略我看了一下其中包括第8項的資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":10534.631,"end":10548.258,"text":"那我也看到政府所提出這個所謂的關鍵項目當中無機材料及利料其中這個大概是公共工程委員會裡面要協助辦理的部分"},{"start":10549.704,"end":10563.996,"text":"那基本上我知道主委對於其實這幾年已經有一些動作努力在做但是對我來講我都覺得這個其實我們應該想辦法來合作讓他效率再提升"},{"start":10566.478,"end":10582.091,"text":"我們知道循環經濟其實在談的就是說其實世界上是沒有垃圾這個東西啦只在於說我們的科技進步到哪裡或者我們處理成本有多高如果處理成本不是很高其實垃圾就是黃金嘛因為它是有效的支援"},{"start":10583.311,"end":10607.317,"text":"在這個架構底下,我只取一種例子,因為時間有限,我只取其中一種例子叫做濾清混泥土我們都要求濾清混泥土一定要刨除之後再鋪設那主委你知道現在堆積在台灣土地上面的濾清混泥土的這些廢料大概有多少數量?"},{"start":10612.455,"end":10622.091,"text":"按照業者提供大概有465萬噸對這個是工會提供的數字那地方政府呢地方政府還有沒有儲存"},{"start":10624.397,"end":10640.38,"text":"現在我已經要求前面做調查到底量多少,我已經答應業者要去前面清查出來400多萬公噸是保守估計換言之有可能500萬、600萬噸的刨儲物這個刨儲物不是不可以再利用"},{"start":10649.273,"end":10659.154,"text":"事實上隨著科技它的運用範圍可能可以更廣換言之透過技術上的研發加工它的強度也可以讓它更強"},{"start":10660.578,"end":10685.537,"text":"但是問題就來了就是誰要來用它也就是說如果我們談循環經濟我們認為它事實上任何我們要追求達到淨零碳排的過程其實任何事情的處理它都是產業啦也就是我們一定要從產業的概念來思考這個問題而不是從垃圾的概念來思考這個問題如果你用垃圾的概念來思考這個問題我認為它很難成功"},{"start":10689.119,"end":10698.773,"text":"就像我知道主委有公告這個所有的地方政府工程的發包一定如果這個所謂的"},{"start":10703.869,"end":10718.095,"text":"這個濾清混凝土的刨除物如果沒有辦法在工程裡面達到平衡地方政府要編列預算給廠商不可以叫廠商事先自己再去引導處理啦我覺得這個是對但是這個對齁只對一半"},{"start":10722.577,"end":10750.974,"text":"這個對只面對工會今天產生那麼多的這個濾清刨除物到處堆砌主委我想你也知道這個堆砌物基本上我們在政府的都市計畫或者政府相關土地的規劃裡面其實又沒有足夠的空間來堆砌這個因為堆砌這個對很多人來講這個叫嫌惡嘛你家的旁邊濾清粉泥土的廢料堆積如山"},{"start":10752.338,"end":10777.664,"text":"可是呢如果我們從產業發展的角度它其實是某一種產業的原料它其實不是垃圾但是我們現在的架構裡面因為產業鏈沒有產業鏈的思維沒有產業發展的思維所以我們當它叫做廢棄物的處理我們概念上還沒有跳脫它是用產業的角度所以我的意思就是說我建議主委"},{"start":10778.752,"end":10801.724,"text":"面對你看齁作為這個濾清的刨除業者他們沒有地方堆砌也到處在陳請他們也希望合法希望政府能夠給他們堆砌的空間那就算你補貼他錢就算地方政府沒有辦法在工程裡面讓刨除去平衡給他錢還是沒有地方堆啦"},{"start":10803.016,"end":10828.231,"text":"對了放在那裡3年、5年、10年對周遭的這個來講大家又嫌惡他啦所以這個就是我講的這個做一半啦就雖然我們有嘗試解決但是我覺得這個解決的方法其實應該更加認真來思索那我剛剛我也想到嘛譬如說你那個我們的那個葉副主委啊他其實對產業很了解"},{"start":10829.093,"end":10855.327,"text":"就是說我們應該整體比如說請業務主委來思考工程會可以扮演什麼角色因為我們從我們的內政部跟環保署在這些所謂的無機材料及利料裡面他們是主辦單位那還有兩個我們工程會都是協辦那我剛剛講過如果用產業的角度來思考這個問題那他應該統合起來也就是說"},{"start":10856.687,"end":10874.466,"text":"到底這400多萬噸他放在哪裡他的內容物是什麼那內容物是什麼產業可以在這個平台上會不會有產業願意投入來將這樣的力量來進行加工或者加入什麼樣的東西他的強度可以變成什麼樣"},{"start":10875.615,"end":10902.835,"text":"所以換言之它其實是一個產業那接著呢這些東西要怎麼收它其實是一個平台也就是說我想要來做這行 加工但是我要去收啦這個也要政府的力量嘛不然你這裡有刨廚房、那裡有刨廚房它要怎麼去收所以架了平台透過研發跟管理那最後就是我們的制度面了也就是說你政府沒有在法規上面去規定"},{"start":10904.789,"end":10919.238,"text":"廠商就不一定會用,他就不一定會使用,除非你的價格非常有優勢所以他其實是一個需要政府來統籌的事情如果我們沒有政府在這裡面扮演角色這個事情其實是做不來的"},{"start":10920.012,"end":10944.688,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們澤良副主委他其實對產業了解所以他可以試圖的統籌因為我看都把工程會列為協助單位而已並不是你們來主導所以我會希望說這個應該有一個高度有一個計畫所以要從產業發展的角度來思考這個問題"},{"start":10946.397,"end":10958.053,"text":"主委你的看法怎麼樣這個問題我講第一個會造成的原因就是政府在執行上面的偏差造成了一個結果"},{"start":10959.383,"end":10977.474,"text":"那麼今天要收尾還需要政府同意委員的看法那麼當初的規定是有問題的他要求人家刨除的利清你越西越左通通要買回去然後你這個工程才能夠用60%所以一定有40%會繼續存在那邊"},{"start":10979.355,"end":10998.86,"text":"他會越來越多啦累積到現在這麼多所以這個部分應該從政府來解決我已經答應歷經業者我們全面的來檢視、調查到底有多少然後怎麼來消化這個東西正確做法不應該讓每一個工程那麼讓他買回去頓在那邊"},{"start":11001.401,"end":11021.678,"text":"應該各該工程從設計就要解決掉你能夠刨除再利用再利用你不能再利用你可以作為底層基層填放料變工程就應該要把它消化掉而不是累積在那邊以後變成很多大堆再來解決那個以前錯誤的現在我想導正這個事情"},{"start":11022.739,"end":11046.15,"text":"所以我想我剛剛講過主委你已經注意到了只是說我覺得要加入產業的概念就是怎麼在產銷透過什麼樣的方式可以把這個平台架起來以後就變成市場機制的問題但是這個階段因為累積歷史的這個工業啦越賺越多啦現在已經怕死人他已經不再是他不再是那個他是環境的問題啊"},{"start":11047.17,"end":11060.682,"text":"很多人都來陳請檢舉堆積爐山堆積爐山你去跟業者叫他們改善他們說他們也很希望看政府可不可以提供給他們土地所以在這種層次思考"},{"start":11061.946,"end":11081.694,"text":"循環經濟在這種程式思考這些所謂廢棄力量這個是對2050淨零碳牌最大的侮辱這是很好笑可笑的事情他連確實有提出來說叫我們協助他找地方給他放出這個東西我個人看法這樣是不對的應該要把這些東西把它消耗掉這不會改過來了這做一半而已"},{"start":11084.756,"end":11100.516,"text":"因為我們在談經營碳排其實這些問題都要解決這個其實就是我們達到2050經營碳排其實首要工作就是把循環經濟做好沒有垃圾這個東西就看我們怎麼去規劃跟設計它是管理、設計、規劃的問題"},{"start":11102.438,"end":11121.903,"text":"然後該有的法規主委你拿該相關的法規我希望工程會能夠儘速來提出那我會持續啦就是針對循環經濟這個問題在工程上因為只有8分鐘太短了所以我想我們就今天先把其中的一個項目我先來提出來好不好我們來努力謝謝主委謝謝好蔡委員發言完畢現在請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":11145.773,"end":11148.694,"text":"主委我一直在關心的就是我們的最有利標那我們的效率好不好"},{"start":11167.711,"end":11194.706,"text":"那也觀察了很多年這一點要肯定工程會的成果啦我這邊列出了從108年到112年那我們持續關心那這個比例呢不管是絕標建樹還是絕標金螺的比例也都有逐漸的提高這個部分也要跟主委跟我們工程會的同仁表示鼓勵跟感謝"},{"start":11196.447,"end":11220.875,"text":"當然今年的數據比例還是提高但是金額為什麼會下降呢?決標件數為什麼會下降這個我有去了解以前是10萬以上就有去統計那現在改成15萬所以雖然決標件數減少因為金額提高不過總比例還是增加的這個部分還是肯定那另外就是說"},{"start":11222.563,"end":11247.568,"text":"為什麼我一直要求說讓政風主計可以去參與事實上我們可以看到最有利標他最大的好處就是量身訂做讓我們穿最適合的衣服他最大的壞處就是有些公務員不敢承擔或有些公務員有一點不一樣的不好的想法所以這個是他的優點跟缺點"},{"start":11248.909,"end":11266.444,"text":"那政方跟主席都能夠參與至少就是表示我都在旁邊看所以第一你不用怕第二你也不能後悔來所以這個部分我們因為他們的參與事實上也有提高的狀況我們當然也要表示肯定"},{"start":11267.285,"end":11290.214,"text":"那我看今年的政風主義參與的比例是降低的以前都每年提高啦那今年是降低的那當然你往好的方面想就是說大家都已經按部就班都就緒了該承擔的承擔該防弊的防弊也越來越好了所以我比例可以慢慢的降低了那這個部分主委你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":11291.421,"end":11313.699,"text":"這方面很謝謝委員一再提醒我們去做這個事我個人非常的認同我覺得讓他們來參加有安內跟讓外面的放心的作用非常的重要像跟委員報告很多的重大案件主動要求像台北港"},{"start":11314.58,"end":11316.942,"text":"對,所以就是說我們這個做法其實是正面的做法"},{"start":11330.394,"end":11354.895,"text":"所以我說我已經觀察了要求了很多年也希望說主委可以一起來重視那包括我們同仁就是說這個方向如何去讓最有利標可以得到說我們買到最適合的衣服又是最好的又是價格合理的又不會讓人家亂做手的我想這個原則對於國家的公共工程的"},{"start":11356.296,"end":11357.357,"text":"現場也都一直在說缺工的問題"},{"start":11380.221,"end":11404.182,"text":"這個部分我們去看從業人員的年紀我們把它看一下就是說勞動力短缺跟人口老化所以大概在45歲到64歲中間是比較集中的那30到39是比較少的那20到29我不知道你們那邊有沒有統計資料那我在猜一定是更少"},{"start":11405.99,"end":11418.824,"text":"那如果提高年輕人願意來擔任營造業或者是相關的勞力的工作事實上現在很多人都不願意嘛那主委有沒有什麼方法"},{"start":11420.477,"end":11444.398,"text":"根據我們的了解現在我們主要勞工還是靠國內的勞工大概有30幾萬那麼年齡也一直在上漲年輕的越來越少這個是事實那最後面我們現在採取幾個除了暫時性外勞來補充之外根本性的解決希望能夠減少工程對勞工的需求"},{"start":11445.259,"end":11466.373,"text":"例如改成預註等等工項把它剪掉工法來減少勞工這是一個方法我另外提一個請諸位參考我們再看下一頁你可以看到我們金紙獎事實上是我們工程會相當重要的一個頒獎典禮"},{"start":11468.43,"end":11470.636,"text":"那這幾年也看到就是說從109、110、111我們都有增加一些項目"},{"start":11476.192,"end":11502.681,"text":"那111億其實個人貢獻職人獎這個我就蠻感興趣的這個讓有一輩子就像日本他們職人獎都很興盛嘛那如果年輕人他要得到這個職人獎可能現在還有困難那我在想說是不是有機會我們來增加20歲到40歲就是說增加他們的一些價值跟榮譽感比如說我那個很會打籃球的我就來幫忙我來頒獎叫做最佳籃球"},{"start":11506.94,"end":11511.363,"text":"我做到白天了對吧?這樣可以頒獎叫做最佳藍鐵也就是說我們鼓勵年輕人來參與甚至年輕人其實現在我們可以看到很多年輕人也是這樣他覺得去餐廳賣菜一個月賺兩萬塊他不可以來現場做最佳藍模、最佳藍鐵一個月可以賺七萬"},{"start":11535.624,"end":11536.045,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":11554.16,"end":11575.665,"text":"現在我們的做法就跟委員講的方向差不多一致一個就是給他尊榮感那第二個就是給他證照制度像給他技術是證照證照技術就是他們一定要去考這沒問題因為他要考上了才有他那個資格讓他有這個尊榮讓他有保障提高他的這個薪水"},{"start":11576.785,"end":11603.668,"text":"所以我的具體建議就是說我們111年爭頒的這個個人貢獻指輪獎可能年長的會居多啦我們也鼓勵青年的也有所以年輕人如何就是說類似這樣子一個鼓勵方式你讓他靠一個榮譽感、要一起一個工作的價值那這樣子我可能願意年輕我就來投入那我們也會比較增加我們年輕人的一個缺工的問題來協助"},{"start":11606.37,"end":11623.845,"text":"對,這方面我們現在正在努力朝這樣再說所以我現在要跟你說的就是奧斯卡,金職獎的職員奧斯卡,你可以贖課分類尤其是營造業,這個很辛苦的所以我覺得最佳燃火跟最佳燃鐵不錯"},{"start":11625.605,"end":11637.64,"text":"這個需要鼓勵我每一次到工地我報告這個名稱啦我會說你那個名稱有趣啦他有價值又有趣這樣他會覺得說我現在得到工程會頒獎金子獎頒獎最佳藍帽來其實是頂帽來的啦"},{"start":11645.522,"end":11655.75,"text":"但是這一種的肉依感不一樣,剛才我在那時候,我在做紅山市長的時候,我跟我們前幾天的隊員都說,其實你們很重要的,如果沒有你們,下次是草莽莽了,其實人家都說,人家來跟你否定說,啊你會得本事嗎?"},{"start":11665.011,"end":11686.973,"text":"就好像在否定你,好像這個職業有分貴賤,這個職業你們是很重要的,你們要有那個光榮感跟榮譽感人家這樣子講是他們不對,我們自己要肯定我們自我肯定自我自己肯定很重要,但是如果政府能夠肯定的話,他那個榮譽感會加倍,加很多倍"},{"start":11688.14,"end":11690.121,"text":"徐委員發言完畢現在請林楚英委員"},{"start":11717.697,"end":11741.935,"text":"林柱英委員．林柱英委員不在現在請王洪威委員．王洪威委員．王洪威委員不在現在請鄭天才委員．鄭天才委員．鄭天才委員不在現在請侯孟凱委員．侯孟凱委員．侯孟凱委員不在"},{"start":11742.856,"end":11761.178,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在現在請謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員、謝一鳳委員不在現在請陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在"},{"start":11762.319,"end":11782.087,"text":"現在請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員不在現在請鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在現在請麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在"},{"start":11783.227,"end":11808.451,"text":"現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在現在請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在"},{"start":11817.974,"end":11834.7,"text":"現在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在現在請陳俊宇委員發言來慢慢來沒關係"},{"start":11862.418,"end":11867.145,"text":"好謝謝主席那請主席請我們吳主委來請吳主委"},{"start":11875.094,"end":11875.154,"text":"謝謝吳主委"},{"start":11898.425,"end":11911.221,"text":"那我想這個就叫我們吳主委對於宜蘭縣我們未來一個關鍵的黃金10年那這個相關的包括交通、醫療、產業還有我們這個休閒方面觀光休閒"},{"start":11916.187,"end":11936.816,"text":"其實在這幾個面向裡面竣瑜個人認為比較重要的是交通跟醫療那我也謝謝我們這個中央政府對於宜蘭縣的這個部分所做的相關的核定的內容表示肯定那今天因為時間問題我想請教我們這個主委就是針對我們這個"},{"start":11943.812,"end":11967.843,"text":"鐵路高架的部分鐵路高架的部分在我們目前宜蘭縣鐵路高架部分從東山到我們礁溪的這一段到宜蘭的礁溪這邊那總長度大概是15點15.84公里15.84公里那可是對於一個這個非執政的"},{"start":11970.495,"end":11985.155,"text":"這個非直轄市的縣市來講它相關的配合款對於宜蘭縣來講可以說是非常沉重的負擔反觀我們看直轄市對於相關交通建設在推動的過程裡面"},{"start":11985.996,"end":12014.289,"text":"我們這個重大的交通建設可以說中央全額支付的情況都比比皆是那我在此我是想建議說對於這個直轄市的部分像這個宜蘭縣的鐵路高架我們是不是有辦法可以來核定一個這個距離15公里內的這個工程費用是不是由中央全額來支付"},{"start":12015.27,"end":12043.411,"text":"主委您認為有沒有可能?剛剛委員提到的幾個像國立陽明醫學副醫還有這個這個鐵路的高架等等這些這個工程對宜蘭縣都是非常重要的工程項目那現在各部會包括衛福部"},{"start":12044.051,"end":12065.173,"text":"包括交通部都已經在進行相關的規劃後期或這個可行性報告的審查階段那委員希望的是趕快能夠協調推動那這個部分我想雖然不是工程會的主管"},{"start":12065.894,"end":12082.591,"text":"那我願意以這個工程會的立場來邀請這些部會來協調到時候也請委員參加一起來推動讓這些計畫能夠加速的來進行定案來複製實施"},{"start":12083.772,"end":12104.644,"text":"好 謝謝主委因為這個鐵路高架對於我們宜蘭縣要縫合我們東西向的經濟發展是非常重要的一個這個工程那也能夠消弭23個平交道讓我們所有的用路人在通行的時候更加安全所以在此我還是懇切的拜託我們吳主委對這個工程的這個重視"},{"start":12106.045,"end":12116.597,"text":"並且對於我們這個所謂的經費方面能夠有一個更好、更完善的一個配套讓我們在推動的過程裡面可以更順遂那針對在2月份也有一份這個"},{"start":12119.124,"end":12141.179,"text":"反評出來這個反評的報告出來類似有卡關那我也請我們這個吳主委是不是針對這部分我們應該是能夠更好的一個溝通方式來把這個反評的這個問題來解決才能夠順利的來推動我們這個鐵路高架這樣子我相信"},{"start":12142.02,"end":12166.157,"text":"在這個動工跟完工的日期才不會去這個download到所以在此我真的再次的拜託我們吳主委對於這個工程的一個重視還有這個相關環節的這個溝通協調真的要拜託我們吳主委來幫忙因為在1月份我們蔡總統到宜蘭也很明確的指出行政院會"},{"start":12167.538,"end":12195.226,"text":"對於我們這個綜合規劃給予最大的支持那我也希望說我們在各部會包括我們交通部對於這個工程還有後續包括這個高鐵東延還有我們這個重大的這個台62線都能夠一併來做比較好的這個時程的規劃讓宜蘭線對於對外的這個交通路網可以儘早來有一個比較完善比較好的一個打通"},{"start":12195.697,"end":12208.752,"text":"好,我們把這幾個案都列入協調會報來協調委員在一起來主調,一起來努力謝謝主委,謝謝主委好,陳委員發言完畢我們現在請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":12221.382,"end":12226.41,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是請工程會吳主委跟嚴副主委"},{"start":12233.36,"end":12261.473,"text":"首先我要特別謝謝吳主委跟嚴護主委長期我們過去十幾年的互動不管是各項政策的推動或者是為選民陳情事項的協助我想主委跟副主委都給我們很多的協助跟幫忙解決很多地方的問題跟鄉親的問題所以行政跟立法當然要互相尊重"},{"start":12263.96,"end":12289.098,"text":"對於權力大家一定要都要非常謙卑行政、立法都是為國家人民服務沒有什麼上對下這是匪夷所思這個不要來了立法院就喪失了人性跟明明的人格這個是非常不好的所以首先我對行政部門同仁陸立為公、陸立為國為民表示高度肯定跟感謝"},{"start":12290.382,"end":12314.545,"text":"接下來討論就是之前大概幾年前高雄有一個綠環境館我去運過好幾次嘛還好是吳澤成主委出面去協調人們在那裡看過那開始就知道完全是這個閒置完全是荒廢啊等一下要怎麼辦沒辦法活化一定要工程會來督導"},{"start":12317.413,"end":12341.669,"text":"我拜託各位三位請留意你跟這個市政府做協調然後各方面這個各單位做協調那時候好像是農委會的預算這樣才把這個問題解決把那個綠環境管把它拿掉之後會不會重新招商引資將近100億打造一個智慧化冷電的物流中心這就是"},{"start":12344.372,"end":12347.306,"text":"行政部門跟立法部門大家共同努力的結果"},{"start":12348.516,"end":12376.218,"text":"所以大家共心、大家互相尊重、互相努力國家才會進步所以這點也要盡度下吳主委你看副主委也一樣我差不多一星期參與副主委紀念一次有啦很多我們的算命、澄清事項、很多法律、工程會那些法律很專業公共工程、公共事業、一些跟工程會相關的業務只要是嚴副主委來"},{"start":12377.398,"end":12393.877,"text":"差不多10項差不多9項都改觀尤其為國家利民的做事就是兩位是模範恭喜大家我很感謝也很感動這次另外一項就是興達港新的碼頭我不知道主委要不要去過在嘉庭那裡"},{"start":12397.686,"end":12422.389,"text":"應該有去過。這個里數是差不多到高雄關的時代,楊秋新管理在做管理的時候,他就做了整個青仁碼頭。這青仁碼頭當然比較大利用興達港旁邊的土地,包括有飛鴨樹的土地,包括有郭山樹的土地。所以他要打造成一個觀光休閒這個油氣的一個亮點。"},{"start":12423.803,"end":12424.564,"text":"曾經大概十幾年前還能辦過國慶煙火"},{"start":12437.243,"end":12459.278,"text":"國慶有十幾百人在那裡看 後來就慢慢的關閉合併之後 很多原因就沒辦法好好把這個情人碼頭 把它維持下去 再創這個榮景過去我們的雄心壯志是說 北部有一個娛樂碼頭在淡水 南部有一個情人碼頭在興大港透過觀光休閒 這個娛樂 透過遊艇 來帶動這個協定的發展"},{"start":12467.443,"end":12489.135,"text":"或府內的發展,這是人們的目標。我覺得我做理委也十幾年了。我越看越稀微的看,包括你看一塊設施,很多土地可以做的,包括飛行所可以做的,或是這個汽船可以做的,我都在舊鄉,包括有BOT叫遊艇港,遊艇公司來做這個遊艇港碼頭。"},{"start":12496.78,"end":12499.042,"text":"海洋科技研究中心 海洋科技研究中心"},{"start":12512.394,"end":12530.321,"text":"臺灣的新達海基也在做離岸風電所以它一方面有這個海洋科技研發的一個園區另外一個海洋科技產業的離岸風電園區還有遊艇港碼頭的BOT計畫再看下一張這個有的土地都可以處理的就可以盡量處理現在沒辦法處理的就是國三署在主管的這個青山碼頭以前的一些建物"},{"start":12540.313,"end":12558.187,"text":"這個建物是八角樓,旁邊有沙草叢森,過去八角樓是一個送親人碼頭的一個好的一個賣東西的地方,在那裡休息,看美景的地方,現在就閒置在那裡這是高雄財產署的地,現在每天走過去我就想哭"},{"start":12564.564,"end":12585.63,"text":"好好的地點、好好的風景竟然沒有發生幾位也不是說市政府沒心,這個是屬於國產署的地所以一定要中央用主要的管道協調我們這個同仁羅伊參國產署、羅伊參企業署、羅伊參國產署市政府的協調看要怎麼把這個情人碼頭、這個園區把它活化起來"},{"start":12592.772,"end":12594.453,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12618.972,"end":12645.271,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵這個案子我們馬上來了解好,謝謝主委,等一下好,請委員發言完畢登記質詢的委員均與發言完畢做以下決定第一,報告局詢討完畢委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分"},{"start":12646.469,"end":12657.235,"text":"請工程會競速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢現在休息3月6日星期三上午9點繼續開會謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}