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這個"},{"start":180.838,"end":194.905,"text":"這裡面有一個問題昨天在立法院同樣的問題問你我們現在超真的四千多億你說沒有辦法還稅於民那你可以做什麼事再講一遍好不好"},{"start":196.606,"end":201.312,"text":"對於我們的稅收的時增數超過預算數的部分第一個我們會減少舉債比如說今年的總預算原來要舉債的部分我就沒有舉那另外我會增加還債會增加因為第一個今年度沒有增加"},{"start":214.147,"end":227.274,"text":"因為我們會等到11月到12月的以後我們在算那個時增數大概可以達到多少然後國庫的資應上沒有問題我們就增加還債第一個公債法裡面就有規定好了你可以增加多少還債呢?跟我講一下大概增加多少?"},{"start":230.476,"end":245.37,"text":"委員您上次在審我們預算的時候就有做一個決議就是說我們超過的預算數的部分至少要再還5%嘛對不對5%那個是法定的太低了啦不是法定的部分已經還了已經還了1158億已經還但是到過時增數超過預算數的部分我們至少要再還5%那至少是150億以上對"},{"start":251.576,"end":251.936,"text":"台灣對美國的貿易順差800億美金"},{"start":275.709,"end":302.488,"text":"總裁獨家一直說五百多億喔!查這,是什麼人算?財政部公佈的財政部公佈的貿易順差有800億美金喔!850億喔!總裁獨家一直說五百多億喔!到底查在哪裡啦?查在哪裡啦?為什麼查內?你們公佈的啊!經濟部國際貿易署官方的文字裡面對"},{"start":306.678,"end":317.342,"text":"對,去年就是賺美國是805億順差嗎順差805.6億跟委員報告一下差在哪裡跟總裁差在哪裡807億缺是112年全年是對各國的順差但是對美國112年是353億那今年1到10月對美國順差是529億沒有錯是529億今年到1到10月份對"},{"start":334.789,"end":341.811,"text":"財政部公佈對美國突破出口突破4300億順差805億不要提在這裡啊不要提你們財政部公佈的啊財政部公佈的數字啊我們順查了去年去年是880億不是對美國而已美國是353億"},{"start":359.977,"end":372.168,"text":"你這公布的都是你們公布的數字再查一下喔來來來部長對著麥克風講我們再查一下我就請教那個總裁阿現在川普總統上來了喔好不好那個部長可以請回囉這個我們都知道他現在祭出一個關稅戰對不對是沒有錯"},{"start":380.663,"end":386.506,"text":"如果真的大陸課60%全世界課10%會全世界產生什麼狀況會不會disaster是不是災難對全世界的經貿我覺得我個人覺得比如說60%10%因為在我們的這個報告裡面就是說美國川普上台之後"},{"start":403.875,"end":412.72,"text":"包括拜登政府所以對全球平均對中國大陸最後是19.3%那對其他的國家是3%那現在就是說要10%我從3%要到10%那非常高喔那你從20%要到60%那是很高喔那我總覺得我個人我也總覺得就是說60%真的有可能嗎"},{"start":433.633,"end":436.734,"text":"那68呢當然他因為...所以你不太相信60%啦簡單來講你不太相信60%啦那真的是68的話所以呢我剛剛才在講等一下等一下因為時機有限那川普講囉說如果原來講說如果中國打台灣要炸北京後來後面一點是講說要扣150%到200%那更不可能啦如果他會這樣講"},{"start":462.46,"end":477.564,"text":"我想齁這個有些時候是一個策略啦齁是一個策略所以剛剛我還是講到一個重點所以你講的就是60%不可能10%也不可能我也不是說不可能啦我只能說懷疑啦就不可能我只能說是懷疑懷疑那因為齁因為你就說對如果說對他的那個EV對他的鋰電池對他的太陽能板他的新三樣"},{"start":488.787,"end":508.826,"text":"它扣高稅那這有可能會超過60多有可能對不對但是對其他的商品我在想特別是它的那個consumer goods它的一個消費品美國說實在的它也非常依賴中國大陸的消費品"},{"start":511.629,"end":523.035,"text":"但是他現在就很簡單嘛他拿到總統的位子主要是靠的他就是經濟就是高關稅啦所以你講說這個可能性不高但是萬一萬一康處怎麼辦我就請問你如果10%、60%真的靠了全世界經濟會怎麼樣你回答一下回答一下好我回答就說第一個我們"},{"start":537.942,"end":552.467,"text":"我覺得就是那個Faith的主席他講了一句話講得很好他說他對於這個政見呢川普的政見呢他不去預測他不去假設他不去猜測"},{"start":553.905,"end":558.086,"text":"他因為他的那個時間啊他第一個他的timing是什麼時候第二個他的規模是怎麼樣他都搞不清楚所以美國的貨幣政策呢他也認為就是說他在這種前提之下他不做這些的一個猜測可是也因為這樣子他現在美金獨強啊嚇嚇叫啊全世界最強貨幣就是美元啊那現在是市場的一個反應啊那沒有錯啦沒有錯啦那現在美元是又強了到106左右"},{"start":582.335,"end":596.883,"text":"這個你看起來好那我覺得剛才跟你財政部的差距在於我們軍購算不算在貿易順差逆差裡面算不算據我們了解我們也有跟那個財政部也有溝通過應該是有有放在那裡面有放在裡面"},{"start":603.166,"end":605.307,"text":"我跟你具體講一點啦你又不敢講硬體有啦軟體沒有啦軟體沒有啦你擔心不擔心我們又再被列為匯率操縱國"},{"start":619.492,"end":630.765,"text":"會不會擔心?匯率操縱國基本上到目前為止我們跟美國財政部溝通得非常良好所以我們剛剛在講就是說我們現在是兩個標準三個條件滿足兩個啦基本上三個條件不會"},{"start":639.315,"end":655.518,"text":"那我都認為現在不管是貿易順差你講500億好了我講300億好了啦我都認為這個就是他要我們付保護費他們在努力的方向他是生意人的mindset你要賺我錢我都要幫你賺回來啊"},{"start":656.559,"end":657.18,"text":"最後一個最後一個很重要的東西"},{"start":672.409,"end":699.742,"text":"川普擁抱加密貨幣啊他裡面喔今年五月份喔他進行活動接受比特幣的捐款而且他要成為美國首位的第一個比特幣總統這裡面他說加密貨幣是一百年前的鋼鐵工業而且還川普居然說啊永遠不要出售你的比特幣"},{"start":700.902,"end":703.384,"text":"這個都這樣子,但是這個完全是打臉楊總裁,楊總裁對加密貨幣是非常不屑的沒有,我們是認為就是說加密貨幣它的價格波動非常大,那它投資的成分非常高"},{"start":718.553,"end":737.169,"text":"那這個呢至於你在講這個的時候呢事實上呢我據我了解金管會也要對加密貨幣呢他要監管他而且他他你還不接受嗎他現在可能那監管就是接受的意思啊馬斯克這麼重要的一個他的測試馬上接這個效力部的部長吧馬斯克說以後可以用比特幣來還美國的國債請問美國國債我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":746.697,"end":751.9,"text":"馬斯克是很會操縱市場的啦他以前他也講說他的比特幣可以跟那個去購買那個他的那個Tesla結果到最後呢也是不了了之所以是隨便講講我會我不出字啦所以我們楊總裁點兩點馬斯克隨便講講馬斯克也是蠻會操縱金融市場的好啦我們請你就是這一點啦現在"},{"start":771.232,"end":775.253,"text":"怎麼辦這個東西你一直瞧不起的比特幣現在變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成...變成..."}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時47分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長、金管會彭主委、央行楊總裁三位長官一起。"],["主席：請楊總裁、彭主委及莊部長。"],["賴委員士葆：三位長官好。我先請教金管會彭主委，這個簡單的題目問完，你就可以回去你的座位了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看到數發部為了打詐要推動網路廣告實名制，財政部長也在這裡，他都很清楚，九大泛官股也跟進了，請問金管會，你能不能夠也為了政府的打詐績效盡一點力，有沒有可能讓不管是不是泛官股的所有銀行跟進，還有上市櫃公司也跟進，在網路平臺下廣告一定要實名制，否則不下，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，其實這件事情是金管會在10月30日召開我們自己成立的內部防詐小組會議，我們邀集了各個公會一起討論出來的想法，後來他們就開始落實實施，當然，站在金管會的立場，對於所有的詐騙一樣是深惡痛絕，我們也是採取各種方法，由業者自發性這樣的作為，我們是支持的，所以我們也會持續保有這個態度，我們也希望大家一起來防詐，包括這些所謂的廣告主也應該善盡社會責任。"],["賴委員士葆：我問你的是你可不可以要求上市櫃公司或者最少強烈建議上市櫃公司，為了臺灣能有一個乾淨的空間，所以大家一起來打詐，沒有實名制就不下廣告，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們也是朝這個方向在做。"],["賴委員士葆：你要求和朝著這個方向是不一樣的，你能不能在這裡答應？數發部部長昨天已經答應了，明年1月開始做，不到兩個月就要開始做了，你這裡同樣要求，可不可以？或者至少對於所有的民間銀行也這樣做，可以嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們其實已經朝這個方向在做了，因為我們是金融主管機關、監理機關，業者已經有非常高度的自發性，我們也是非常支持，我跟委員的想法是一樣的。金管會會……"],["賴委員士葆：對於上市櫃公司可不可以要求？"],["彭主任委員金隆：基本上，我覺得上市櫃公司的差異性會比較大一點，當然這件事情應該全民一起來努力，我也在這邊呼籲……"],["賴委員士葆：至少你可以強烈建議或者……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想這是全民的共識，強烈建議應該是沒有問題。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你可以做？"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，我可以做。"],["賴委員士葆：好，主委請回。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，這裡面有一個問題，昨天在立法院問過你同樣的問題，我們現在超徵了四千多億，但是你說沒有辦法還稅於民，你可以做什麼事，再講一遍，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於我們的稅收實徵數超過預算數的部分，第一個，我們會減少舉債。"],["賴委員士葆：可是你還債的部分沒有增加啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：譬如，今年的總預算裡面原來要舉債的部分，我就沒有舉，另外，我會增加還債……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有增加喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：會增加，第一個，依照公共……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有增加，今年度沒有增加。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為我們會等到11月、12月以後，我們再算那個實徵數大概可以達到多少，然後在國庫的支應上沒有問題，我們就增加還債，第一個，公債法裡面有規定……"],["賴委員士葆：你可以增加多少還債？跟我講一下，大概增加多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，委員上次在審我們預算的時候就有作一個決議，我們超過預算數的部分至少要再還5%。"],["賴委員士葆：5%是法定的，太低了啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，法定的部分已經還了，已經還了1,158億，但是實徵數超過預算數的部分，至少要再還5%，我們至少會再還150億以上。"],["賴委員士葆：太少了！我們覺得還是不夠，不給老百姓那就多還一點吧，至少要還到500億，怎麼才150億！接下來請教總裁，請總裁聽好，剛才你一直講、一直講，先讓部長講一下，部長，這是財政部今年1月份公布的，臺灣對美國的貿易順差800億美金，但是總裁剛才一直說五百多億，怎麼會差那麼多？我們要以誰說的為準？財政部公布的貿易順差有800億美金、805億，總裁剛才一直說五百多億，到底差在哪裡？為什麼會差這麼多？這是你們公布的統計數據，在經濟部國際貿易署官方網站的文字裡面，去年對美的貿易順差805.6億，跟總裁說的差在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，805.6億是112年全年對各國的貿易順差，但是112年對美國是353億，今年1到10月對美國順差是529億，沒有錯，今年1到10月是529億。"],["賴委員士葆：財政部公布對美國出口突破4,300億，順差805億，這個標題就在這裡啊！這是標題是你們財政部公布的，這是財政部公布的數字啊！那你們不就都是隨便講講的？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年全年的貿易順差是805.6億，不是對美國而已，美國是353億。"],["賴委員士葆：這都是你們公布的數字，再查一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們再查一下。"],["主席：部長，對著麥克風講。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們再查一下。"],["賴委員士葆：好，部長請回。請教總裁，現在川普總統上來了，我們都知道他現在祭出一個關稅戰，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["賴委員士葆：如果真的對大陸課徵60%、全世界課徵10%，全世界會產生什麼狀況？對全世界的經貿會不會是災難（disaster）？"],["楊總裁金龍：我個人覺得無論是課徵60%或10%，在我們的報告裡面也有提到，美國自川普上臺之後，包括拜登政府，對全球進口品的關稅平均稅率，中國大陸是19.3%，其他國家是3%。現在要從3%提高到10%是非常高的，從20%提高到60%也是很高的，所以我個人也覺得提高到60%真的有可能嗎？當然因為它……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你不太相信60%，簡單來講，你不太相信60%。"],["楊總裁金龍：我也覺得真的是60%的話，所以我剛剛才講，第一個……"],["賴委員士葆：等一下，因為時間有限，川普原來是講如果中國打臺灣，他要炸北京，後面一點講要課150%至200%，那更不可能啦！如果照你這樣講。"],["楊總裁金龍：我想這有些時候是一個策略，所以剛剛我還是講到一個重點……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你講的就是60%不可能，10%也不可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也不是說不可能，我只能說懷疑啦！"],["賴委員士葆：幾乎不可能，可以嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，不，我只能說是懷疑……"],["賴委員士葆：懷疑？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為如果他要針對EV、鋰電池及太陽能板這所謂的「新三樣」課高稅，那有可能會超過60%，這都有可能，對不對？但是其他商品，特別是consumer goods，所謂的消費品，說實在的，美國也非常依賴中國大陸的消費品，他非常依賴。"],["賴委員士葆：是啦！但是現在就很簡單，他拿到總統的位子，主要是靠他的經濟政策，就是高關稅嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！沒有錯，關稅是他的一個……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你講可能性不高，但是萬一、萬一come true，怎麼辦？所以我就請問你，如果課了10%、60%，全世界的經濟會怎麼樣？你回答一下、回答一下。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我回答。第一個，我覺得Fed主席講了一句話講得很好，他說對於川普的政見，他不去預測、不去假設、不去猜測，因為第一個，他的timing是什麼時候，第二個，他的規模怎麼樣，都搞不清楚，所以針對美國的貨幣政策，他也認為在這個前提之下，他不做這些的猜測。"],["賴委員士葆：可是也因為這樣子，現在美金獨強，嚇嚇叫啊！全世界最強的貨幣就是美元啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：那是現在市場的一個反應，沒有錯啦！沒有錯啦！現在美元是又強了，到106左右。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我就請問你剛才詢問財政部的問題，我們的軍購算不算在貿易順差、逆差裡面？算不算？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我們了解，我們也有跟財政部溝通過……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是有。"],["賴委員士葆：蛤？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，有放在裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你具體講一點，你還不敢講……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是。"],["賴委員士葆：硬體有，軟體沒有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：喔！那這個我就不大曉得……"],["賴委員士葆：軟體沒有啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：因為貿易是屬於……"],["賴委員士葆：你擔心不擔心我們又再度被列為匯率操縱國？會不會擔心？"],["楊總裁金龍：匯率操縱國？基本上到目前為止，我們跟美國財政部溝通得非常良好，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們剛剛講的，就是我們現在是兩個標準……"],["賴委員士葆：三個條件滿足兩個啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：三個條件不會，基本上，三個條件不會。"],["賴委員士葆：現在不管貿易順差，你講500億，我講300億，我都認為這就是他要我們付的保護費，是他們努力的方向，他是生意人的mindset──你要賺我錢，我當然把你賺回來啊！從武器裡面買回來啊！你同意不同意？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣的分析也是蠻合理的。"],["賴委員士葆：合理嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：也是合理的。"],["賴委員士葆：他目標就是300、500億美金，這就是所謂的保護費。最後一個很重要的部分，川普擁抱加密貨幣，今年5月份，他的競選活動接受比特幣捐款，而且他要成為美國所謂的第一個first比特幣總統，川普說加密貨幣是一百年前的鋼鐵工業，而且居然還說永遠不要出售你的比特幣！都這樣子了，這完全是打臉楊總裁欸！"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有啦……"],["賴委員士葆：楊總裁對加密貨幣是非常不屑的……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們不會，我們是認為加密貨幣的價格波動非常大，投機成分非常高，而且事實上據我了解，金管會也要對加密貨幣監管，而且他有一步一步的……"],["賴委員士葆：你還是不接受嗎？他現在可能……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，監管就是接受的意思啊！"],["賴委員士葆：馬斯克，他這麼重要的一個策士……"],["楊總裁金龍：監管就是接受啊！"],["賴委員士葆：馬上要接效率部部長，馬斯克說以後可以用比特幣來還美國的國債，請問美國國債有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，馬斯克是很會操縱市場的，他以前也講說可以用比特幣去購買他的Tesla，結果到最後也是不了了之。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是隨便講講？"],["楊總裁金龍：我不予置評啦！我是覺得他以前……"],["賴委員士葆：所以是「楊總裁：馬斯克隨便講講！」"],["楊總裁金龍：馬斯克也是蠻會操縱金融市場的。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝楊總裁、謝謝士葆。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！我們請你重視這一點，現在怎麼辦？這個你一直瞧不起的比特幣，現在變成……"],["楊總裁金龍：喔！我沒有瞧不起，抱歉！沒有瞧不起。"],["賴委員士葆：變成川普很重要的……"],["主席：好，謝謝楊總裁，謝謝賴士葆。"],["楊總裁金龍：那個金管會都要監管了，怎麼會瞧不起咧！"],["主席：接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}