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PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1872.83,"end":1889.458,"text":"好,我們現在開會請主任律師報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人以主法定人數我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議紀錄來,我們先確定一下上次會議的意思錄請律師宣讀"},{"start":1896.261,"end":1901.306,"text":"時間113年2月29日星期四上午9時12分至9時25分地點紅龍202會議室出席委員、王委會委員等14人主席張委員紅綠報告事項請委員參閱選舉事項選舉第11屆第1會期本會召集委員2人"},{"start":1918.039,"end":1919.08,"text":"好,上次會議預示錄有沒有錯誤或者遺漏的?"},{"start":1948.438,"end":1955.907,"text":"聽不到我們麻煩一下好不好在場的在場的在場的議事人員請維持一下現在現場我們的這個現場的次序"},{"start":1967.6,"end":1989.471,"text":"我們麻煩一下我們請媒體媒體朋友們維持一下我們開會的順序次序然後我們請我們的這個委員們對安靜然後請我們的媒體朋友維持一下現場委員會的次序好"},{"start":1994.875,"end":2021.925,"text":"好,上次的會議意思錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏的地方?好,意思錄確定了然後呢,我們現在繼續好像是有程序發言人要發言,是嗎?好,我們現在這個程序發言你們可以來登記繼續進行本日議程報告事項,請宣讀"},{"start":2024.881,"end":2037.109,"text":"報告事項邀請海洋委員會主任委員、大陸委員會主任委員、國防部及海軍司令部參謀長就:「金門撞船執法過程及後續處理、進行專題報告．並備質詢。」宣讀完畢"},{"start":2052.939,"end":2067.531,"text":"好 宣讀完畢了 今天我們的議程就是按照我們委員會初期的專案報告的名稱所以呢 以上已經確定我們現在呢 你們要程序問題 沒問題我會讓你們程序發言好不好"},{"start":2071.073,"end":2071.093,"text":"請簽名"},{"start":2126.324,"end":2145.042,"text":"好 主席現在宣佈 主席現在宣佈 請安靜主席現在要宣佈一下 我們請大家聽一下好不好 現場的委員們 主席在這邊宣佈一下"},{"start":2146.503,"end":2153.495,"text":"我們今天程序委員會裡面的簽名我們就按照內政委員會今天先來順序的先後來發言好不好謝謝"},{"start":2171.056,"end":2185.385,"text":"主席,我剛剛已經宣告了,如果大家有意見的話,請大家安靜,因為你們現在這麼吵,我聽不到。"},{"start":2190.263,"end":2204.106,"text":"請安靜一下好不好謝謝請各位委員尊重一下召委的發言因為你們現在太吵我沒有辦法來繼續我來維持這個開會的順序還有我的結論如果大家有意見的話是不是這樣子我們就才表決我們內政委員會裡面的委員們來表決我們程序的發言好不好"},{"start":2217.449,"end":2229.601,"text":"謝謝,好,我們請現在維持大家回到位置上,好嗎?可以嗎?可以可以,謝謝,我已經做這樣子的才事了,請大家回去,好嗎?謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":2233.272,"end":2238.837,"text":"請回到位置上來表決我們現在開始來清查內政委員會的委員"},{"start":2283.407,"end":2294.331,"text":"好 我們請議事委員來清點一下內政委員會的人數我們來進行表決 謝謝 謝謝好 非常謝謝委員的尊重 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":2331.72,"end":2358.106,"text":"好,巧會委員等一下不好意思不好意思請大家安靜好吧你們沒有安靜我講話大家都聽不清楚好,基於召委非常理性的來這裡維持會議的順暢我們也接受這個巧會委員還有惠美委員您的建議我們就用我們內政委員會的委員"},{"start":2359.326,"end":2360.707,"text":"但是我們希望的時間不要太長以內政委員會的委員來做程序發言"},{"start":2407.478,"end":2436.538,"text":"我覺得國民黨團跟民進黨團你們自己先討論一下誰排第一位然後如果願意接受我的建議的話因為民眾黨只有一席我們是不是先第一位尊重民眾黨的委員好不好讓麥義堅委員先來做程序發言除非他放棄他的程序發言好不好"},{"start":2437.779,"end":2438.361,"text":"請尊重門議會內政委員會。謝謝!謝謝!"},{"start":2455.014,"end":2460.596,"text":"我們請議事委員維持一下現場的秩序,我們要非常的平和、順利的開會,好不好?謝謝大家,謝謝媒體朋友們,謝謝!"},{"start":2540.485,"end":2567.431,"text":"好了,我非常謝謝民進黨團的決議是說再吵下去也沒意思那麼我也尊重民進黨團的委員們那我們為了讓今天的會議非常順利可以進行誰第一個做程序發言就是三個黨團來抽籤好不好我覺得這是最平和的好,招我做這樣的決議麻煩一下做籤然後誰做第一位程序發言"},{"start":2586.038,"end":2589.08,"text":"好,各位黨團,你們要偷派哪一位來抽籤,謝謝"},{"start":2608.134,"end":2614.511,"text":"好的,我們請媒體朋友們,你們請回座一下,這樣我們真的很難開會,請維持現場的次序,好嗎?謝謝!"},{"start":2707.385,"end":2710.866,"text":"我們現在開始我們的程序發言然後請我們的媒體朋友們請回座謝謝"},{"start":2752.154,"end":2775.106,"text":"我們的程序發言時間我們定為3分鐘好不好謝謝大家不好意思我們是不是請其他委員先把位置讓給我們的內政委員會好不好還是我們請議事人員多拿幾張椅子進來好不好"},{"start":2779.124,"end":2793.047,"text":"好 謝謝我們請媒體朋友維持一下我們現場的秩序然後要讓我們的委員們能順利的上台做程序發言好嗎 謝謝 謝謝我已經請議事人員去準備椅子了 謝謝"},{"start":2841.886,"end":2858.896,"text":"好了,我們現在開始我們的程序發言。我們請第一位登記的委員,麥義堅委員,請發言。時間是3分鐘,然後我們請媒體朋友們,請離開一下我們的這個發言台,好不好?"},{"start":2859.936,"end":2868.521,"text":"請我們的議事人員維持一下現場的次序請媒體朋友們謝謝你們張偉在這邊謝謝你們的關心這個議題真的是非常的重要所以我們必須要讓我們的議會非常順利的進行所以請媒體朋友們是不是回到你們的位置上然後把我們的質詢台讓給我們的委員做程序發言"},{"start":2887.313,"end":2889.794,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位媒體朋友、大家早安今天我們是要討論的"},{"start":2912.888,"end":2934.079,"text":"好,我們請...對不起,那議政委員...議政委員先暫停一下我們是不是先暫停一下我們現場的媒體朋友們麻煩一下你們如果一直在我們的質詢台上這個是會妨礙我們所有的委員在這邊進行他的質詢跟程序委員的發言,好嗎?謝謝媒體朋友們,謝謝你們,辛苦你們請議事委員,來"},{"start":2944.485,"end":2968.379,"text":"我們把這個諮詢台清理乾淨了以後,我們再請委員發言。我們重新開始,好吧?重新開始計時。好,非常謝謝。對,後面的媒體朋友們,因為你們如果在前面的話,後面的媒體朋友是拍不到的。我們請議事人員。"},{"start":2970.605,"end":2971.246,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2994.348,"end":3009.202,"text":"麻煩你們去 麻煩 因為後面的人在抗議所以麻煩前面的媒體朋友們 因為他們拍不到麻煩一下我們請議事人員處理再處理一下 謝謝"},{"start":3021.806,"end":3028.932,"text":"謝謝主席、各位委員、各位記者、大家早安我是覺得今天我們是要來處理問題、解決問題的所以我們請大家尊重我們的會議的程序還有我們各個"},{"start":3049.167,"end":3056.15,"text":"報告還有我們委員的發言還有我們主席的決定的話希望大家都要尊重準時要開會不要為了這一個就是聲量啊媒體一直在這樣子去吵下去我們開到明天也開不完謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":3068.815,"end":3077.27,"text":"好 謝謝議長委員簡單有力的發言好 繼續我們請這個新委員做程序發言時間是3分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":3087.899,"end":3099.895,"text":"主席、各位委員、在場的媒體大家好我們今天程序發言最重要我們是要譴責我們海委會的管組委"},{"start":3101.355,"end":3129.818,"text":"苗氏國會篡改我們召委所定的內政委員會專案報告的題目我們的陸委會的報告是沒有題目的報告這個海委會的篡改題目陸委會的報告可以沒有題目所以我們在這裡要求我們的管主委還有我們的邱主委要道歉"},{"start":3130.578,"end":3143.54,"text":"首先第一個民進黨執政的官員藐視這個我們立法院的召委所定的題目擅自專改"},{"start":3145.233,"end":3160.228,"text":"而且還在臉書上嗆聲那完全的不尊重立法委員是所有民眾選出來的所以我們的管主委不尊重立法院不尊重"},{"start":3161.308,"end":3182.548,"text":"民意因為所有立法委員是民意所選出來的所以我們在這裡要譴責而且要求道歉我們要退回這個報告那在我們國會的這個開會在院會有程序委員會在我們的委員會我們由召委來訂定這個題目"},{"start":3183.729,"end":3205.924,"text":"如果管委員認為現在金門撞船案他有現在不方便講的他公開不方便講的他可以召開秘密會議如果他有覺得現在還暫時不方便的可以跟召委溝通來延緩這個專案會議的可能延後來報告"},{"start":3207.685,"end":3224.06,"text":"那不能夠這樣擅自專改擅自篡改這個題目這個是國會史上完全沒有從來沒有過的只有壓霸傲慢的執政黨現在的執政黨才敢這樣做所以我們在這裡提出"},{"start":3225.121,"end":3252.017,"text":"程序發言希望在今天專案報告之前我們要請管主委來道歉我們要請這個陸委會陸委會沒有題目也是很不尊重不尊重我們的這個召委所以在這裡我們也看到也看到我們這一次的這個金門撞船案我們希望"},{"start":3253.118,"end":3280.528,"text":"民進黨的執政不要導致兩岸情勢越來越緊張我們應該盡速的釐清事實緩和情勢我們非常相信也非常的認同我們海巡弟兄們的辛勞而且我們也支持那我們就是要請我們海委會一定要為海巡弟兄向兩岸人民說明真相"},{"start":3281.408,"end":3296.201,"text":"所以我們希望這個關主委一定要道歉我們希望道歉認錯之後我們再來正式的開會好 謝謝好 謝謝民進委繼續我們請博弈委員3分鐘發言一樣 謝謝博弈委員我我在這好 謝謝"},{"start":3311.129,"end":3313.817,"text":"主席抱歉齁,剛剛忘了先跟你鞠躬第一次來這裡發言"},{"start":3315.168,"end":3342.942,"text":"那針對這個程序委員會我想我們必須要做一個發言的就是大家可以坐在這個國會殿堂包含各位委員我們大家彼此尊重那我們會坐在這裡是因為台灣是一個民主、法治的國家什麼是法治?什麼是法治就是說我們今天不是來這裡來決定說這一個意外事件到底是怎麼發生的因為我們有我們的法治我們的金門地檢署正在偵辦中"},{"start":3344.585,"end":3363.372,"text":"我們是希望可以透過這個專案報告來釐清當天發生的事件以及來檢討未來有相關的事件我們要怎麼處理所以我們還沒有釐清當天發生的事件我們就用主觀的這個動詞做撞船我覺得這個是我們是可以大家來討論一下的"},{"start":3364.893,"end":3390.127,"text":"而事實發生的那一天確實發生了一個意外那這個意外怎麼發生的我覺得我們必須要藉由我們國會藉由那麼多媒體朋友讓全台灣的人民來知道說那一天發生了什麼事情而不是現在就告訴大家那一天是撞船撞船是我們的船撞他們的船還是他們來撞我們的船這個我們都沒有人現在目前沒有人知道嘛所以我們希望透過這一個"},{"start":3391.247,"end":3418.505,"text":"透過這個機會讓全國的人民知道那也要透過這個機會來檢討未來海巡弟兄們相關的事情我們要怎麼處理比如說沒有秘錄去或者是應該要有哪一些存證來安大家的心這個是首先對於這個撞船我們這個主觀的這個名稱撞船我們先來提出我們是不是用比較客觀的方式就是說這個意外怎麼發生的那如果結論"},{"start":3419.506,"end":3442.506,"text":"金門地檢署的報告出來起訴出來如果是我們撞船那大家可以再繼續來討論第二個我想要釐清的就是說那我們雖然是新任的委員我們也很認真做了功課萬一遇到召委所排定的這個名稱那部會沒有辦法接受或做什麼樣的調整的時候其實很多前例我舉"},{"start":3444.327,"end":3470.908,"text":"內政委員會的例子好了2015年李俊毅委員就在我們的內政委員會提出邀請大陸委員會主委王玉琦就中國透過民航組織單方面於台灣海峽西側劃線新航線這一個案子後來經過協調把這個中國的部分改成中國大陸透過民航組織這個有啊"},{"start":3472.409,"end":3474.671,"text":"好接下來2015年趙天寧委員提出日本核災五線式產品標示入境事件凸顯食品邊境把關漏洞衛福部也改了也把這個專案報告"},{"start":3488.965,"end":3515.103,"text":"改成近期重大食安事件之稽查以及後續專案報告的處理這是有的那所以說我希望我們可以就這一個名稱的部分來做相關的一個討論再讓管委員再讓陸委會最重要的是讓海巡署趕快把那天事件發生的過程釐清也讓國人知道立委不是只有知道那間的報告我們也要挺海巡署那一天到底海巡的弟兄們多辛苦謝謝"},{"start":3517.399,"end":3532.575,"text":"好,謝謝博弈委員的發言現在程序委員大家的舉例就是說只有3位委員對程序這個程序發言做一些發言那麼在發言結束之後我也有幾句話要講第一個我要確定的是"},{"start":3533.295,"end":3535.137,"text":"第二件事情我要說的是管主委也好"},{"start":3551.895,"end":3554.156,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":3576.022,"end":3597.629,"text":"侵犯立法權我必須提醒在場的委員們請尊重我們自己的職權如果這個例子一開了之後呢我們所謂的新國會就會造成很大的困擾所以呢我覺得大家我都同意今天的專題報告我們來實質的詢答希望就是有助於"},{"start":3598.189,"end":3623.191,"text":"能夠釐清事情的真相以及還原當時的事實然後讓兩岸的情勢不要這麼樣的嚴峻我想這是對全民國人的交代所以呢我報告完畢了後我們現在就開始來我們的開會我們請海洋委員會管組委我們介紹一下在場的委員還有列席的官員好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":3631.876,"end":3652.305,"text":"我來介紹一下現場的委員有許新寅委員、葉徐廷委員、丁學忠委員、張志源委員、徐宇貞委員、黃建斌委員、吳啟明召委、張宏祿委員、"},{"start":3656.929,"end":3684.756,"text":"王美惠委員、蘇巧惠委員、黃潔委員、李柏毅委員、麥玉珍委員、王鴻威委員、林倩儀委員、葛如君委員、葉元芝委員、"},{"start":3686.499,"end":3705.182,"text":"政政前委員、陳永康委員、廖偉祥委員、陳雪生委員、吳思堯幹事長、沈柏洋委員、黃仁委員"},{"start":3708.091,"end":3731.668,"text":"陳詠勳委員陳詠康也剛剛已經介紹了好,非常謝謝今天我們內政委員會所有的委員對於這一次的專案報告那麼樣的關係大家辛苦了好,我們現在來介紹一下海洋委員會的主任委員管碧玲管主委政務副主委兼海巡署的署長周梅武綜合規劃處的處長王一中"},{"start":3738.007,"end":3757.77,"text":"海域安全處處長黃軒凱海巡署副署長許靜芝巡防組組長廖雲紅情報組組長黃西章後勤組組長洪柏昇通電資訊組組長周燕雯艦隊分署分署長廖德成"},{"start":3769.008,"end":3777.496,"text":"金馬鵬分署的副分署長蔡茂岩、大陸委員會主任委員邱泰森、處長周明瑞以及國防部作戰及計劃參謀次長是聯合作戰計劃處的處長董益興、副處長李昌富"},{"start":3796.001,"end":3817.13,"text":"海軍司令部副參謀長張憲瑞海軍司令部戰備訓練處副處長羅承正現在已經介紹完了委員還有列席的官員我們就請海洋委員會的管組委畢林來報告今天的專題報告謝謝"},{"start":3827.883,"end":3828.103,"text":"主席"},{"start":3841.977,"end":3870.594,"text":"如果是3分鐘的話那我想主席各位委員在座各位同仁各位媒體朋友各位女士先生大家早安大家好今天受大院內政委員會第二次全體委員會議專題報告來自於就海洋委員會所送海巡署所做的專案進行報告"},{"start":3871.903,"end":3872.683,"text":"有關於本案面對傷亡"},{"start":3889.269,"end":3910.842,"text":"本人在第一時間的時候就指示海巡署應該安頓亡靈、設立牌位、靈堂予以祭拜．並且海巡署隨即就委請金門海運司師傅安寧送金、安置靈堂、安頓亡靈．責成海巡署人員善盡臨前祭拜．盡家屬應該要有的責任"},{"start":3912.898,"end":3936.48,"text":"我們所有的人道關懷,盡一切的努力在進行。啟動溝通以後,從家屬抵台。我們做了各種方式配合家屬的要求。兩位生還者,非常迅速地就讓他們回國。家屬要勘查、傳播,我們也都配合。啟動協商的整個過程還迅速持續。"},{"start":3937.341,"end":3960.753,"text":"以最大的誠意提供具體撫慰的方案希望給予家屬最實質跟協助的保障．結束完成善後工作這是一個三無傳播、越界捕魚海巡署執法案件整個案件有太多太多海巡署在執法過程結束之後所受到的誤解跟扭曲"},{"start":3961.733,"end":3988.093,"text":"今天只給我3分鐘我就用最重要的一個報告來跟各位報告所有的溝通我僅聲明第一我們是民主法治的國家自事發之日起以及進行後續的協商我們始終堅持事故真相必須與我國體制交由獨立公正與客觀的司法機關完成調查未來也會依照調查的結果釐清責任絕對勿忘勿忠"},{"start":3990.635,"end":4018.635,"text":"第二．我們期待優先照顧家屬．人道關懷．我方願意在事故真相調查公布前．優先給予家屬最誠摯的關懷與實質的慰問．展現我方妥善處理本案的最大誠意．在司法機關尚未完成調查以前．海巡署針對未進行收證的錄影．以致事發經過無法在第一時間呈現．除了造成家屬未能及時瞭解真相．深受煎熬等等．"},{"start":4019.756,"end":4038.145,"text":"除了我們在許副署長的公開的記者會向社會道歉本席也指派了海巡署長在家屬的上香在亡靈者的上香以及家屬的撫慰上面署長也對亡者的死亡表達了歉意"},{"start":4039.145,"end":4055.632,"text":"對於死者的遺體也好,事件的船隻也好,相關的發凡,我們也願意在完成我方司法程序以後,行政部門尊重家屬所有全人的意願,盡下水域的安全與自信,需要兩岸水域相關的共鳴,我們期待所有"},{"start":4059.233,"end":4072.664,"text":"所有的這些善意能夠被珍惜恢復今夏海域原有的寧靜我們也期待海巡兩岸執法兩岸協同執法的部分這個善的橋樑"},{"start":4074.685,"end":4102.154,"text":"不能夠在這個取締的案件發生之後被崔委的報告摧毀這一座善的橋樑我們也在您所謂的八頁裡面只有六頁裡面都提到了這些今天專案報告其實呢我們只看到六頁實在是讓召委還有在場的委員們有一點嘆息那您剛剛所報告的在您的報告裡面也說了謝謝那繼續我們請大陸委員會邱主任委員泰山做報告謝謝"},{"start":4107.262,"end":4122.77,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生我們內會曾貴恩邀請進行今天的專題報告我們以下就涉及本會的業務跟法制面提出說明第一個背景說明我想根據兩岸條例29條的規定道路的船舶非經儲管機關許可不得進入台灣地區的禁限制水域"},{"start":4130.194,"end":4151.823,"text":"另外,第32條第1項也規定說,如果未經許可進入的話,那我們的主管機關的進行驅離、扣留其船舶或物品,並且留置人員為必要的防衛組織。那在施行細則裡面也對於拒絕、授檢等等有相關的這樣的一個規定。那本案事情的發生經過,我想我就不再重述"},{"start":4153.023,"end":4168.328,"text":"本會處置的過程首先在2月15日我們就授權海基會處理陸方的家屬到金門的相關事宜當然對於發生這次的不幸事件我們也深表遺憾第二個"},{"start":4171.289,"end":4190.303,"text":"國台辦在2月17日晚上發布了一個新聞稿那這裡面當然扯到政治面的爭議也就是否認我方有所謂的禁制、禁限制水域那本會在2月18日重申上述禁限制水域的公告期間並且我們將繼續的來執法那對於國台辦的無端的指控無視於兩岸"},{"start":4193.945,"end":4208.756,"text":"各有關單位積極在調查原因後續處理,我們也深表遺憾。第三,針對中共海警局2月18日發布的常態化巡查行動本會也提醒海巡署注意中共"},{"start":4209.697,"end":4233.739,"text":"海警、越界及執法的狀況第4我們在2月19號也授權海基會通知陸方競速的提供來台名單並赴金門會同海基會、海巡署、移民署跟相關的人員附近的這個事宜那第5呢在2月25號我們也呼籲陸方能夠尊重我方的司法體制近代這個調查的這樣的一個結果以獲真相"},{"start":4234.239,"end":4256.166,"text":"那後續的處理建議呢我們第一個我們期盼全體的國人能夠支持我們在第一線執法不管是國軍警察或者是我們的海巡人員那第二個我們希望靜待司法的這個調查結果第三個我們也呼籲陸方能夠加強管理他山路的這個船舶以避免漢式的這個再度發生以上報告請進行指教"},{"start":4256.966,"end":4268.262,"text":"好,非常謝謝邱主委您在時間之內報告完畢,非常的精準好,繼續我們請國防部的董處長季欣來報告國防部今天準備的專案報告"},{"start":4276.843,"end":4304.301,"text":"主席、各位委員大家好。國防部針對大院過委員的交付專題實施簡要的報告如後。第一個,在前面部分請各位委員參閱。第二個,現行執行限制水域的執行做法。第一項部分請參閱。第二項,現行執行限制水域的執行任務是由海巡署來負責。國軍依據與海洋委員會海巡署簽署的《海上任務綜合資源協定書》來實施應援。"},{"start":4306.883,"end":4332.432,"text":"第三個,國軍運儲的原則第一項,在運儲原則部分．國軍發現中共船舶接近進入我限制禁止水域．及中共的海警船對我民用船舶從事臨檢或是洗腦時．除了依照經常戰備時期突發狀況處置規定外．以及台灣地區與大陸地區人民官司條路運取外．本不直接介入．"},{"start":4333.112,"end":4354.474,"text":"不升高衝突的原則保持監控以及協助海巡單位來應處嚴釐衝突的態樣以及處置作為部分國軍全程掌握水域的動態目前已經要求外島防衛部以及海軍嚴釐而衝突態樣以及處置的方法將納入平時的演練做好支援海巡署的準備"},{"start":4356.492,"end":4381.463,"text":"結語,因應中共的海警局在下京海域常態化的執行、巡查做法,並且運用了多批次海警船,逐步加大侵擾,增大了我的運儲處置的複雜度以及風險。國軍遵不挑釁、不示弱、不升高衝突的原則協助海巡單位運儲,以維護我主權以及海峽安全。以上報告,敬請各位委員支持及指教。謝謝"},{"start":4383.203,"end":4385.33,"text":"好 非常謝謝董處長您的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4388.595,"end":4415.528,"text":"好 現在都已經報告完畢了我們現在進行詢答委員質詢之前我們原律做幾點宣告第一個每位委員發言的時間因為大家都是充分準備而來的所以我會給你們很多時間所以本會委員10分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘然後非本會委員10分鐘我們上午10點30分截止發言登記然後對於臨時提案截止提出時間是10點然後10點半"},{"start":4418.109,"end":4427.195,"text":"本委員會詢答完畢後我們要處理10點半我們處理臨時提案然後現在請登記第一位的委員發言我們請D學中委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4441.604,"end":4454.999,"text":"感謝我們主席總召感謝我們各位立委同仁感謝我們的主委以及邱主委、管主委以及我們海巡署、我們各位長官今天在這裡台語說話沒關係啦我們婚姻正好來"},{"start":4463.319,"end":4469.643,"text":"要請問我們這個關主委：當這個海委會的公文：要處理專訪是透過我們這個臉書的聯繫嗎?委員你是要邀請管主委嗎?我們有請管主委,謝謝委員好"},{"start":4487.466,"end":4498.788,"text":"請問館主委,我們現在海委會的公文處理全部都是透過我們臉書嗎?你私人臉書嗎?委員我了解,你想要建議我做一件事,讓我向委員報告好不好?其實那天有兩部分,一部分是在外面接受電視台訪問的時候,我有很明確表達說我接受我們立法院的監督,這是做節目的本質,我覺得我可以這樣回答"},{"start":4516.972,"end":4521.296,"text":"我們知道金門撞船的事項之前我們都在網上看到了因為這個名稱還屬於政府代表我必須要比完事了"},{"start":4541.112,"end":4546.174,"text":"這點我跟委員報告我開始了解說對教育要有尊重我從小我對話就已經有說了海巡講真話我對話就有說了我認為這是教育事務的改善海巡事務不可以私立上海巡事務不可以私立上的部分我需要彰顯一個地方我知道 我知道 沒關係 主委妳剛才講妳對話都有說出來"},{"start":4566.343,"end":4566.723,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4588.96,"end":4598.488,"text":"所以你可以在這裡公開向我們所有委員會來向我們的召委、委員、向我們所有的立法委員、委員這樣好了?我已經都完全表達,召委也已經接受上次量查,也已經都公開但是我要跟委員報告你一定要跟召委、委員、委員,不用跟我們這裡的委員、委員要公開啊,所有的委員會來報告不用跟我們這裡的委員、委員,謝謝委員的指導,這個事情"},{"start":4614.56,"end":4615.161,"text":"管碧玲委員"},{"start":4635.92,"end":4660.355,"text":"女士、主委,她是用管閉鄰上,然後我也是用我個人高金素梅回答。對於高金素梅身為一個立法委員的其中之一員,我能夠體察諒解。但是對於其他的委員,我必不能夠替他們回覆他們是不是原諒您這樣的作為。以上來回應,謝謝。"},{"start":4662.537,"end":4667.761,"text":"委員 海巡署這件事若是去香港作為浪子的事件就好產出中國大陸民主的意圖"},{"start":4681.331,"end":4684.352,"text":"所以主委我認為你可能比較有邀約力去認定問題或來看如何解決問題你是只有將在這個交題內要來做到對"},{"start":4708.12,"end":4722.488,"text":"這很重要啊!這很重要啊!這航艇是海巡巡視的耶!海巡巡就出來了耶!這次碰撞跟撞船事件又完全不一樣喔!這次碰撞...這次碰撞...這次碰撞...這次碰撞跟撞船事件又完全不一樣喔!"},{"start":4730.413,"end":4731.934,"text":"我相信海巡署已經一直對我有表達過歉意．因為日本經濟海巡．"},{"start":4752.381,"end":4752.421,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":4769.304,"end":4770.645,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4797.828,"end":4798.249,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":4815.65,"end":4829.217,"text":"鄉鎮的一座城牆的四大鎮,人們他們都乾脆入侵,我們的海巡署面對的是我們所謂的敵對國,我們所謂的敵對國有可能發生到什麼程度?"},{"start":4831.118,"end":4847.304,"text":"我們海軍司的官員,既然他們要有相當的一年期的政績來懲告回來我們的上級單位,讓我們的上級單位所使有的防禦那個情況,我感覺這是最好,為什麼我們以前那些叫你幹的"},{"start":4848.544,"end":4849.585,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4865.956,"end":4874.384,"text":"我向委員報告,我們需要90億來修理船,委員你有了解嗎?這個船需要90億來修理船,是我們來後解決的,現在已經有醫生了,提到90億的醫生,我們現在在公衛事務,現在是在公衛事務,說這艘公船輸驚,現在我們是在討論公船輸驚"},{"start":4891.52,"end":4893.261,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4916.118,"end":4920.88,"text":"我一肩扛起到現在我一肩扛起到現在我不是一個棄居保帥的人我永遠在浪頭上面我永遠在浪頭上面我永遠在浪頭上面"},{"start":4936.187,"end":4937.047,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4956.332,"end":4956.352,"text":"委員"},{"start":4975.598,"end":4991.909,"text":"我不會說翻船執法我不會說翻船執法我只會說日替國會的態度我會說日替國會的態度我會說翻船執法但是我先經過怎樣我們海水署大家都知道我都知道人家生意都會處理這些的工作我都知道人家生意會處理這些的工作我只會來講對說"},{"start":5005.197,"end":5020.34,"text":"你自己篡改我們這個專案報告的這個題目這個報告是海巡署呈給我的報告不是我篡改我支持海巡我支持海巡我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目我支持海巡這樣改題目"},{"start":5029.882,"end":5031.583,"text":"我所有都公開了,我願意受指責：而且一路受指責："},{"start":5058.695,"end":5059.035,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5080.785,"end":5088.55,"text":"沒有沒有沒有,海船的概念需要你支持我希望我們希望的,大家同意這件事情在這裡我們希望的,就是我們這個管組委自行篡改專案報告的這個題目我們要求他當局的,把我們遭遇的,把我們遭遇憤怒的入獄都給毀失的我們要求我們的而已"},{"start":5108.257,"end":5114.942,"text":"其他人來這裡的內容我又要說嗎?我跟你們下去要怎樣?我尊重委員但是我所有應該表達的我已經都充分表達,感謝所以你的表達就是一種這麼傲慢非常傲慢的表達同時我非常高興拜託所有委員職執行職財財財財財你如果真的是高興你不是這個態度來運動的"},{"start":5137.25,"end":5141.996,"text":"我必須回答的太多我必須回答的太多我必須回答的太多"},{"start":5153.651,"end":5153.892,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":5175.107,"end":5189.958,"text":"你已經變形了,你自己有辦法在臉書找到你的主席,自己在臉書,你有辦法去自己創改,有專案報告的這個題目,你有沒有看出來,說你沒有接受到我們召委所提出來的題目,你就已經變形了,你已經變一種形了,往今已經把你看到你變一種形,看了看你當時的機遇,我們也要來擺一下。"},{"start":5205.168,"end":5207.011,"text":"金門撞船案 翻船執法過程及後續處理"},{"start":5220.188,"end":5241.387,"text":"那麼當時會排這個名稱我覺得撞船其實是事實檢察官也好海巡署也好你們自己都認為他是事實也是非常中性的名詞因此呢剛剛我們會議也已經宣讀了適用這個名稱好不好以上我做這樣子的補充繼續我們請徐宇貞委員做詢答謝謝"},{"start":5250.615,"end":5259.43,"text":"主席、各位同仁、各位官員、大家早。事務主席請海委會管病主委跟陸委會邱泰山主委。好,我們請管組委、邱組委。謝謝。"},{"start":5267.516,"end":5285.316,"text":"管主委還有邱主委早在這邊在詢問之前我要先表達就是針對管主委對於我們這一次的我們的專題的一個報告的名稱金門撞船案翻船執法過程跟後續的處理"},{"start":5286.797,"end":5308.562,"text":"我想館主委其實有很多的管道可以跟召委這邊溝通如果您對這樣的名稱是有意見的事實上可以直接跟召委溝通可是館主委您選擇了一個最藐視國會的方法就是在臉書直接嗆聲而且更改我們的報告的名稱所以我想這樣子藐視國會傲慢無禮"},{"start":5311.038,"end":5336.407,"text":"我想今天大家所看到的就是這樣那剛剛我想丁水中委員一直請管主委能夠對我們所有的委員尤其是內政委員會道歉但管主委還是沒有做道歉這樣一個動作那我是不是曉得說管主委他心裡想的是不是認為這樣做是對的而藐視國會也是應該的跟委員報告沒有藐視國會我還沒有請您回答不好意思謝謝"},{"start":5337.81,"end":5355.107,"text":"好,所以呢也是在詢答前本席也要強調我絕對支持海巡署守護海域、捍衛疆土取締違法進入禁止海域者依法行政是最基本的所以海巡署的同仁執行守護海域"},{"start":5355.755,"end":5373.579,"text":"執行公權力的行為是值得嘉許的只是這一次海巡署在執法的取締過程中可能會有些意外這也不是我方所願所以這一次的傳播撞船的碰撞的意外為例意外發生後海巡署2月14號、15號連續兩天的新聞稿都誤執案發的時間"},{"start":5379.66,"end":5397.545,"text":"到底這是誠實的錯誤還是刻意的隱秘?如果刻意的隱秘就是危機處理時候的大事還是這是組織基層自保的一個慣例呢?所以發生問題時我們應該是要面對問題而不是閃躲、推諉、隱秘"},{"start":5399.724,"end":5413.238,"text":"面對各界的質疑的時候更應該拿出證據回擊可惜的是臺灣號稱科技島我們卻拿不出錄影的這個資料作為證據反擊質疑海巡署一年有編列257億的預算"},{"start":5416.121,"end":5433.738,"text":"密錄器也不過就是短短的2500萬我不懂為什麼卻不能買密錄設備而且也沒有辦法在我們執法的船舶上建置360度的影像錄影兩岸的共打機制在這一次是不是有發揮效果"},{"start":5434.238,"end":5456.533,"text":"未來要避免這種狀況如何的再次發生這都是本席今天要探討的所以本席要請教管主委為什麼海巡署在取締大陸三無船舶時造成漁民落海導致兩死兩傷的悲劇金門地檢署介入調查的時候已經初步的釐清海委會海巡署在查紀的過程中確實有發生船對船的碰撞"},{"start":5460.748,"end":5467.129,"text":"所以我們現在要釐清的問題應該是海巡署在執法時候的追撞所導致的還是大陸漁船山壁覆撞所導致的會是雙方追逐而引起的差撞究竟是哪一種撞船導致漁船翻覆"},{"start":5488.593,"end":5488.633,"text":"第一點"},{"start":5510.376,"end":5529.524,"text":"海巡署不可能隱匿這件事包括說是不是有碰撞包括說有沒有錄影帶他們沒有要隱匿第一時間他們就跟檢調做了全部的報告這個是一個另外就是說這兩件事情是絕對不可能隱匿得住的"},{"start":5531.505,"end":5545.549,"text":"那現在是第一時間的說明的問題第一時間的說明的社會溝通確實有不足那我所了解以海巡署的語言跟社會語言跟委員報告社會溝通是如此但是海巡第一時間為什麼不能說碰撞是不是任何說明或者是讓首長來說明好嗎"},{"start":5560.633,"end":5565.217,"text":"以海巡署的語言登檢委員跟委員報告今天本來我們希望能夠播一個登檢的影片給大家看但是召委沒有允許"},{"start":5587.83,"end":5589.031,"text":"封建這兩個字封建這兩個字對海軍署來講封建這兩個字是啊"},{"start":5601.485,"end":5604.027,"text":"偵查院在112年7月18日就有提出調查報告．內容也指出偵搜設備．人員的配置"},{"start":5623.385,"end":5632.833,"text":"都明顯的不足,要求海防暗巡整體的規劃．人員的配置．當天密錄器是夠的．是否應該釐清改進．當天密錄器是夠的．管主委．我們會補充．等一下,你先不要急．我等一下會讓你說明．管主委,海巡署"},{"start":5638.638,"end":5666.334,"text":"海委會對於這個設備不足的問題為什麼在當時提出去年7月18號當初這樣的調查報告的時候您不即刻改善如果去年有針對這個問題改善今天海巡署取締所造成的意外就能夠迅速的釐清責任也不必變成各說各話的難堪局面所以在督導管理責任重大今天會造成這樣的局面就是你未能積極改善設備不足所造成的所以叫這次的問題所以"},{"start":5669.383,"end":5683.05,"text":"我們管主委選擇的是在臉書指責召委排案不是要平衡前面所受媒體訪問不好意思管主委我接受指責已經一再的表達但是你沒有跟我們道歉喔好"},{"start":5684.591,"end":5699.851,"text":"另外我再請教一下管主委、邱主委,針對大陸漁船越界進入金門禁制區的情況,我們有沒有透過兩岸共打機制的聯繫機制,請求大陸方面強化兩岸協同執法的質量跟密度?"},{"start":5700.712,"end":5712.826,"text":"其實在兩岸協同執法的時候共同打擊三無船過去都有案例這個本來就是兩岸的共識兩岸對於三無船的取締共識立場是一致的請問一下你這邊提供本席聯繫的時間跟對岸回覆的時間"},{"start":5718.112,"end":5733.956,"text":"我們兩岸共打我會請海巡署去了解這個部分是不是機密的數字如果不是的話當然一定提供給委員兩岸共打兩岸共打之下的協同執法是提供連續的時間跟對岸回覆的時間好不好如果沒有的話那我是不是先請邱主委先說明一下針對兩岸共打的機制是不是有大多方面的這個"},{"start":5742.738,"end":5745.08,"text":"兩岸共打基本上主管機關是法務部的國兩司他們負責這樣的一個主責"},{"start":5760.814,"end":5775.971,"text":"所以我相信那個防部呢他們大概都會有一些相關的資料可以那我大概可以跟委員報告了大概在過去這七八年呢就共打的部分呢我們大概他幫我們送回來大概40幾位的這個通緝犯"},{"start":5778.234,"end":5798.477,"text":"那我們也幫他們送回去大概12、3位的通緝犯所以基本上共打的機制還是有在做運作主委我是指這一次的案件這一次不不不我現在講你剛剛講說兩岸的共打對對對我說以這次的案件有沒有啟動兩岸共打機制這個部分是因為海巡他們又有海巡的機制恐怕署長會比我了解"},{"start":5799.451,"end":5806.819,"text":"登委員報告兩岸協同執法海巡署兩岸協同執法的對口這一次事件第一時間發生就有跟對方聯繫我們請署長說"},{"start":5814.555,"end":5839.024,"text":"如果我們現在雙方的溝通沒有結果陸方能堅持在我國所設置的禁限制海域的巡航那請問海巡署強制的做法是什麼陸方現在可以用行政船測試未來可能換成武裝船所以除了海警的巡邏也可以是海軍的戒護所以請問針對大陸不同的船舶的因應做法為何請簡短回應"},{"start":5840.866,"end":5848.372,"text":"非常謝謝委員我剛剛想跟委員先報告一個數據我把這數據給你你就知道我所講的是事實還非事實至於兩岸共同黨的戰隊跟協同．我只是報告個數字協同執法光是去年112年"},{"start":5867.116,"end":5889.393,"text":"中方跟我方就已經舉行了49次我剛剛有跟您提出針對這次大陸漁船播的作業我們大概每個月都要執行4次共同執法我想再請教的是如果將來再有大陸漁船到我方的禁制海域作業的話海巡署"},{"start":5889.813,"end":5890.913,"text":"因為我們現在是在取締非法保障合法"},{"start":5905.719,"end":5906.78,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5920.547,"end":5943.98,"text":"報告非常完整 是不是之後再給我書面報告所以從這一次的這個撞船事件來看我們沒有辦法排除未來再有事故發生或者是兩岸緊張中美衝突的時候陸方都可能升高言論的這個論調對方施加壓力在未來陸方很可能不會只用口頭的語詞來否定我方的治理範圍而是改以實際行動劃定陸方的內海"},{"start":5946.441,"end":5950.222,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":5964.867,"end":5967.028,"text":"對話跟交流才是我們應該要做的而且要建立有效的溝通管道不要對到"},{"start":5991.543,"end":5994.804,"text":"有關這一次我們的這個兩岸協商的談判代表我知道的是我們在臺灣是海巡署的許副署長那據我了解許副署長是海軍中將的官階"},{"start":6021.054,"end":6036.819,"text":"所以由這樣的高階的中央政府的執法官員對上大陸紅十字的顧問這樣身份位階上的落差完全不對等所以這有符合過去民進黨一直強調的兩岸事務協商需符合對等的關係嗎?請那個主委回答"},{"start":6040.543,"end":6041.243,"text":"所以這是兩岸對等的一個狀況嗎?"},{"start":6064.917,"end":6085.812,"text":"我們都知道這是基於我們的尊重我們一定就是說這是紅十字會的代表那希望我們還是希望說我們這個兩岸的這個協商一定會對等那不必以免不要在我們在城市的門內運氣避免一旦再次發生所以我覺得要跟管主委這邊說關於一個專題的報告"},{"start":6087.773,"end":6087.993,"text":"徐宇貞委員"},{"start":6105.187,"end":6129.25,"text":"謝謝我們官員的答詢 謝謝我剛剛要說明一下因為管主我剛剛有說過今天海巡署本來要放一個錄影帶然後經我的助理詢問之後這個錄影帶呢巡署要放的錄影帶並不是當天的這個撞船事件的錄影帶而是我們怎麼樣登檢我想你們這樣的錄影帶在所有的網路都可以搜尋到"},{"start":6129.991,"end":6130.111,"text":"張志倫委員"},{"start":6156.375,"end":6164.611,"text":"主席好 各位主委好 各位委員好 各位媒體先進大家 早安大家好那是不是有請管主委來接受質詢好 有請管主委謝謝"},{"start":6173.638,"end":6197.988,"text":"館主委您好首先在進行質詢之前我想要針對就是館主委您針對我們這個內政委員會的專案報告的專題專題報告的標題來進行這個修改我要表達強烈的不滿所以我想先請教一下這個館主委說你本身跟這個我們高經招委是怎麼樣去做溝通跟協調的"},{"start":6200.125,"end":6212.555,"text":"跟委員報告這件事情確實是我先在臉書上對外揭露事後我跟召委致意也跟社會大眾表達對召委失禮之處我願意接受指責"},{"start":6218.86,"end":6234.287,"text":"新型的表達或是用簡訊的方式來通知我們的召委都是對我們這個委員會的不尊重以及對立法院的不尊重也對我們立法委員的不尊重所以這邊是會代表我可以請代表我們立法委員們請管主委這邊跟大家致歉一下"},{"start":6235.103,"end":6252.894,"text":"我想我對於這件事情在第一時間對外就公開的說明那一天之所以用臉書是因為就在前一刻我接受電視媒體的訪問的時候我已經非常非常虔誠的表達說接受接受接受監督是我們的本職所以需要公開就這樣子說明那請問一下行政院跟各部會是不是會"},{"start":6261.86,"end":6262.12,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":6276.906,"end":6304.008,"text":"在害害海巡的立場的情況之下我真的是跟委員誠懇的拜託就是說如果我們都支持海巡請大家也要支持海巡來更改這個名稱我們都非常支持這個海巡兄弟的信號我們針對是您當時不管是跟昭偉的溝通及擅自修改專案報告的標題對我們的服務非常好而且這是開立法院的首例"},{"start":6304.428,"end":6306.551,"text":"我們不希望這個惡例一直持續下去"},{"start":6323.312,"end":6337.637,"text":"最後要跟管主委請教我們這次主要做內政委員會的專題報告也是希望管主委可以藉由這次專案報告的機會跟國人來說明這次驚嚇事件的始末而且尤其大家關心的兩岸的議題"},{"start":6339.238,"end":6361.139,"text":"那管主委我覺得您這次使用不管是用臉書或是傳簡訊私下給我們的主委其實我覺得個人認為是非常的不妥我認為很多的事情不應該留為政治的口水那以及我今天早上才收到這一封的這個我們黨團給我的資料我們一直想要跟您請問的是說您在簡訊中提到說"},{"start":6364.061,"end":6382.173,"text":"謝謝昭偉海巡署極為辛苦原住民同仁所佔的比例在原住民部落區域的單位所佔的比例為而不低那您這樣的簡訊內容那我們的昭偉也跟我們分享說這讓他覺得心裡非常的不舒服請問是不是想要用這個利益交換來讓我們同意說這個專案報告的主題做一個更改"},{"start":6387.557,"end":6388.178,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6405.299,"end":6420.531,"text":"原住民的同仁在海巡署的特勤組所佔的比例高達17%最辛苦的工作當中原住民的同仁所佔的比例非常的高可是當你在協調事情的時候你卻把這個東西拿出來我覺得"},{"start":6423.793,"end":6430.716,"text":"讓人家不免會接受到訊息的人感覺到非常的不對因為已經接受已經接受上期量產還有這個質詢粉絲應該要予以全負主權所以是不是本席在這邊再給你一次機會"},{"start":6440.561,"end":6443.802,"text":"我充分地表達這件事情我充分地表達我應該受指責而且我願意受指責謝謝委員"},{"start":6461.01,"end":6489.085,"text":"好 謝謝管主委您辛苦了那接下來我要來質詢的部分就是我們現在國人非常重視的一個議題就是這次驚嚇事件我們海巡署第一線的人員其實非常的辛苦大家知道現在這個這個驚嚇的海域常常發生衝突可是我覺得讓國人所嘩然的部分沒有常常發生衝突我想這邊要請你回答的是說在這次的衝突之間我們海巡人員在發生這是一個事故"},{"start":6490.126,"end":6503.517,"text":"好 這個事故我們想要了解的是說造成兩死兩傷的結果那為什麼沒有任何的蒐證的記錄跟設備我想請問管主委是說您可以在這邊分享一下到底有沒有蒐證的設備及記錄"},{"start":6505.879,"end":6526.852,"text":"第一個當天我們密錄器是夠用的但是當天這艘船它本身的配備就是一個V8所以他們有帶V8出去執勤而且它不是接到案子以後重配備出去它是在海上其實在海上是非常的不適用那我們以我在新北市的範例我們這個這個密錄器都是應該要帶在身上的所以這邊一定要拜訪主委這邊"},{"start":6531.355,"end":6553.391,"text":"應該要再去爭取我們所有海巡弟兄應該要使用的設備而不是手持V8那這邊我要再跟管主委報告我已經在主管會報也成立了小組一定要對勤務管理也進行全盤的一個檢討那這邊我接下來要繼續跟主委請教其實在立法院的內政委員會在108年就決議說要請海巡署在兩個月內研議配發密錄器給基層的執勤人員"},{"start":6560.836,"end":6562.277,"text":"這個缺口是我們改變未來的配備的這個新型設備的配備方式我們現行的配置方式呢"},{"start":6583.174,"end":6583.434,"text":"委員報告．"},{"start":6598.211,"end":6598.591,"text":"目前不是這樣配備"},{"start":6626.534,"end":6628.776,"text":"目前不是這樣配備但結果這一次我們準備要這樣配備"},{"start":6651.85,"end":6653.771,"text":"我收到你們這邊有一個資料是說從108年到112年主要購買的1358台這個數字有沒有錯誤"},{"start":6682.171,"end":6689.558,"text":"這個數字應該是沒有錯我再跟你請教在110年北立分屬有一個標案他說採買密錄器200台金額為60萬他一台大概估計的金額是3000塊錢那請問這個密錄器是哪一國產製的這個部分我請署部的同仁來回答"},{"start":6705.035,"end":6727.274,"text":"報告委員、情報組這一部分的密錄器的話有一部分是台灣製但是有一部分是大陸產製所以這就是我今天要提的問題齁如果這些我們的密錄器是大陸產製會不會有治安上的問題所以這一部分我們在110年的時候我們通知組這裡就有一些所以這就是我要跟各位我們跟今天我們所有的國人報告的齁"},{"start":6727.534,"end":6749.492,"text":"就是因為這些密錄器是大陸製的導致我們海巡第一線的弟兄們他不知道是不是應該使用這個密錄器會不會有資安上的問題因為我們大陸產製的這些密錄器總共400多具其實都已經封存了所以我們現在所有所用的密錄器都是台灣產製沒有用大陸產製的密錄器"},{"start":6750.728,"end":6764.979,"text":"好那接下來我要請問的是關於這3061台的缺口這密錄器還沒有取得的部分請問你們是不是要動用第二預備金來做採買請問大概會用多少的第二預備金報委員我們會用到2150萬的金額"},{"start":6769.564,"end":6789.825,"text":"請問大概一台是多少錢?是採用哪一國製的?我們是台灣製的,我們採用的那一台是我們比警方更好一點,我們一台大概便宜價格是7000塊對,這跟我說到的消息是一樣的,那希望說在這邊你們盡早去取得這個密錄器的使用,而且要確保這個資安的安全"},{"start":6790.365,"end":6791.206,"text":"這次不幸的事件我們高度的遺憾"},{"start":6808.587,"end":6824.314,"text":"海巡署在勤務的裝備跟勤務的管理上面如何更進一步的落實經由這次事件的檢討我們已經成立小組這個小組我們不排除在不涉及機敏資訊的部分我們會請學者專家一起來指導"},{"start":6825.795,"end":6853.971,"text":"我請教一下我管主委如果又發生說有大陸的艦艇登到我國的這個船艦這個不管是旅遊船或任何的船艦上的時候請問主委這邊你要怎麼反應如何確保兩岸的安全跟人民的安全其實中國的公務船對我國民船的登艦這是非常特別的案例多半都是發生在"},{"start":6854.611,"end":6856.693,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6873.406,"end":6899.231,"text":"所以當天我所說我們第一時間會請他在安全的範圍之內能夠不要停留跟我們對開讓我們趕快能夠接近在兩船的中間這確實就是海巡署所律定對於這樣的一個政治爭議事件當中的攻擊協會的作品這邊我要最後要拜託你的就是說跟隊伍剛剛提出來我們這個海巡弟兄的密錄器"},{"start":6900.111,"end":6900.892,"text":"我們就看誰提供委員"},{"start":6930.092,"end":6946.115,"text":"非常謝謝張志文委員質詢,也謝謝管主委,謝謝。我們繼續請黃敬斌委員,哈?怎麼樣?您是OK嗎?好,那黃敬斌委員的同意就是處理,您是怎麼樣?"},{"start":6958.968,"end":6959.308,"text":"主席"},{"start":8304.462,"end":8321.807,"text":"現在大家都回到座位上了大家辛苦了主席我來宣布一下現在有臨時提案總共是4案經過剛剛各黨團的協調之後召委也接受大家的意見我們就暫緩處理臨時提案我們現在繼續我們的答詢請黃建斌委員謝謝"},{"start":8347.365,"end":8369.024,"text":"主席還有我們這場各位我們先敬我們在場的主委還有我們現場所有的媒體朋友大家早我想要請教一下這個我們的海洋海洋海巡署的署長嗎我們海洋會的管會和主委好我們請海洋委員會的主委、管主委謝謝好 環委員好"},{"start":8375.459,"end":8398.559,"text":"主委長安最以前我對你的印象就是在電視上那時候是在擔任立委的時候主委給我的印象就是專業而且溫柔但是問題頭尖銳身為一個人一代表非常的成功但是今天我也看到功力不減但是還是提醒一下"},{"start":8399.815,"end":8414.168,"text":"主委就是我想換了位置換了腦袋只是正常的但是我相信依主委這麼資深的經歷也應該知道要尊重立法權這件事情也不會發生我們早上這麼多的花底"},{"start":8416.11,"end":8437.261,"text":"我來委員會的第一天,張綺麗委員就說我們的傳統是很peace那時候我們很peace那我也是想說應該是會很開心的在這裡來共同解決我們民眾的需求沒想到今天一開會就看到現場這麼多的媒體跟朋友那當然"},{"start":8439.401,"end":8439.721,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":8464.697,"end":8464.997,"text":"主任委員也有委員,謝謝"},{"start":8480.891,"end":8507.044,"text":"所以大概我簡單的來說到這一次的事件我們針對我們這次金門撞船事件其實大概發生就是兩個原因對不起我請委員支持海巡署改名對他們來講真的太重大了真的有需要對不起主委我要必須在這邊再糾正一下今天的狀況報告不是你們送來的狀況報告好不好謝謝主委我都已經講成這樣了你讓我下台你還這樣對不對"},{"start":8511.587,"end":8526.973,"text":"所以我們現在提到的就是這件事情整個最引發最大爭議的原因就是因為影像這件事情沒圖沒真相是沒圖沒真相所以對於基層執行的地區發想也非常不公平他們冒著生命危險"},{"start":8528.133,"end":8531.416,"text":"海巡署不是因為他們的過失造成災難,我能夠請委員再回到上一頁嗎?"},{"start":8557.775,"end":8583.434,"text":"抱歉抱歉抱歉因為海巡署的疏忽演變成災難真的很抱歉是所以這個災難這個事故我想不是因為海巡署的疏忽在登檢的過程中發生的事故我們現在在等檢調來釐清等檢察官來釐清謝謝那如果說是因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們真的是深深的感到抱歉"},{"start":8584.495,"end":8588.12,"text":"我再度也為閉路一帶的事情深深地感到抱歉"},{"start":8597.18,"end":8618.388,"text":"主委,海巡署說我們缺乏露營器材,這造成問題。主委,海巡署說我們是盾擊以下的巡邏艦艇,密錄器不是標配,因為這樣並沒有違規。我想這個是都把責任推到我們基層同仁的做法,完全要以第一線同仁來承擔這個奉獻。"},{"start":8620.108,"end":8644.184,"text":"如果今天沒有因為金門撞船事件這個意外發生我真的不知道海巡署同仁沒有佩戴密錄器那個幾個委員提到像那個學生委員提到這個在我們鄉下是警察執行基本的配備因為他不單單是要維護執行的安全他也要確保自己的安全所以密錄器是必備的應該是這樣吧"},{"start":8646.613,"end":8649.716,"text":"主委的關心我們真的會痛加檢討因為主委剛才提到說主委上一年多解決很多問題包括花樂道91去修那個船"},{"start":8666.032,"end":8670.535,"text":"秘密錄器的部分我個人在針黃分署的部分讓他做到每一個人有一台這一點在我上任以後有要求"},{"start":8684.102,"end":8698.513,"text":"政法分屬的部分已經補到每一個人有一台那金馬棚分屬的部分我替他們找了100台那過年後才到所以當時那100台還沒有到所以密錄器我其實我就任以後也陸陸續續的在解決"},{"start":8700.815,"end":8721.424,"text":"有更大的問題替海巡署做了很重要很重要的問題的解決但是無論如何就這個部分真的接受所有委員的指導跟指教我們一定要痛加檢討我們未來絕對不允許在勤務上沒有落實然後再發生這樣的事情"},{"start":8723.038,"end":8740.257,"text":"中日本其實部門很多弟兄都是在軍人服役那有些是在海巡單位服役那其實這件事情會丟機成人大打擊因為他們會擔心未來如果我執勤我到底要怎麼辦如果出了事情之後我要怎麼辦不過當天密錄器是夠的當天密錄器是夠的"},{"start":8742.118,"end":8766.999,"text":"所以我有說在我們的管理的勤務的落實的部分我們有很多細膩的地方要檢討但是當天他們就是依循常的做法用這個攝影的器材來出勤而且他不是說我要去登檢怎麼會你要出發沒有密錄器不是而是他已經在海上用他尋常的標配在海上執勤的時候被調過來的"},{"start":8768.22,"end":8790.837,"text":"被調到現場去應處這件事情所以有這樣的設備在所以他用的就是標配就是我們在每一艘CP提醒上面所給的手持式的攝錄影集但是沒有影片好來分署長想要說更能夠了解事實好不好"},{"start":8792.621,"end":8810.129,"text":"報告委員我是艦隊分署的分署長廖德成這邊在特別的說明在特別的說明我們更簡的規定在密錄器的部分不一定是只有密錄器只要能夠全程錄音錄影的設備就好那就是要在"},{"start":8811.229,"end":8832.564,"text":"發動登檢的當時一定要全程錄音錄影這個是我們一個勤務上面的規範那當然如同我們朱偉講的將來我們的勤務上面會再做一個檢討精進以上好 謝謝副市長當時搖晃的程度讓他來不及因為追逐的時間就短短的那麼5分鐘而且是高速的40節的這個過程"},{"start":8836.001,"end":8836.241,"text":"那我們的"},{"start":8864.773,"end":8867.594,"text":"各位委員報告有沒有這個影像當然是其中讓我們了解案情當中的一環但是事證的還原其實不是光靠這個影像事證的還原有種種的跡證從船舶的跡證"},{"start":8891.545,"end":8900.64,"text":"從人員的筆錄從各方面這個檢察官他會去還原整個事實的真相主委我剛才提的是"},{"start":8903.422,"end":8904.263,"text":"這個部分請署長來說明請署長"},{"start":8926.58,"end":8948.854,"text":"跟委員報告我想這一次整個有關陸船翻覆的原因依照我個人我們同仁第一時間在做這個現場的調查跟整個證物的一個現象來看我想主要有三個原因我想在這邊跟您做個報告第一個它是一個高速右轉這是第一個原因"},{"start":8949.614,"end":8978.9,"text":"那麼這個高速右轉我們從這一個艇它的這個車就是我們的加車就是它的速度它是推到底它的電門開關是開啟另外它的舵就是方向盤是打到右門舵這個右門舵就是向右轉到底就是如同我們這張這個圖片那這樣子的一個狀況它是高速右轉第二個主要的原因是它的配重"},{"start":8980.179,"end":8981.66,"text":"所以理論上這個船,兩個弦外機在後端,它平常就是這樣翹起來的"},{"start":9009.226,"end":9036.476,"text":"另外他還有一個這個收網機在他的右側所以正常上他的配重就不正常所以他正常狀況下他有加了這樣子的配重然後他會右傾他又在高速又右傾第三個最重要的原因第三個我最後一個原因第三個最重要的原因我時間剩下55秒不好意思我只是要調調一件事情而已如果我們從頭到尾知道緊盡快公佈他不會超船這個船長"},{"start":9038.337,"end":9042.667,"text":"他只開了不到14船這一艘船他1月份才買來的所以他沒有執照"},{"start":9047.09,"end":9048.27,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":9072.757,"end":9093.835,"text":"我們絕對支持海巡弟兄依法行政我們絕對支持但是其實是需要一個真相也包括今天大家對我們弟兄的質詢的質疑是最後要提醒你啊 主委海巡署他是署內正部所以在我們內政委員會這邊的質詢他不是軍隊他是海上警察"},{"start":9094.535,"end":9095.576,"text":"指法必須小心"},{"start":9119.487,"end":9132.433,"text":"謝謝建兵委員質詢也謝謝你們的答詢我在這邊提醒一下署長您剛剛所回答委員的這些為什麼在你們今天的專案報告裡面沒有更細部的說我這個是要譴責你們的"},{"start":9134.414,"end":9154.222,"text":"若今天你所有的這個專案報告能夠把你們更細部的這些如同您剛剛所講的是不是能夠更提供給委員們做參考而你在剛剛浪費太多的時間我先譴責你們並沒有把這個細部的資料交給這個委員會下次不可以這樣子好不好謝謝好繼續我們請劉許廷委員來做質詢謝謝"},{"start":9162.624,"end":9164.388,"text":"謝謝主席這個還有會主委有請請管主委這個喔"},{"start":9173.561,"end":9192.398,"text":"因為在開始質詢之前我們還是要把話講清楚因為這個連給一份報告的內容都可以避重就輕這本席是覺得非常失望這是我們很多新科委員第一次站上委員會發言的質詢台但前面就惹出這麼多的風波那我想海洋委員會主委我想責無旁貸我舉個例子來講"},{"start":9193.619,"end":9218.373,"text":"趙薇已經明確的排案也把會議的名稱告訴大家連外面不屬於內政委員會直接監管的國防部都願意尊重內政委員會的排案權利直接去寫金門撞船案的報告結果你們自己一個海委會自己在那邊更改名稱還發臉書也不願意跳過也不願意只跟趙薇講也不跟委員溝通前面剛剛程旭發言也有講其他有例子那都是協調過後"},{"start":9219.754,"end":9246.584,"text":"大家都願意各退一步可是像你這樣子跳過去還在臉書上直接寫的也算是聞所未聞啊入委會也很油條啊就乾脆寫反正這就是個會議然後也不寫標題反正方法總是很多啦我只是覺得國防部比你們更重視內政委員會這件事情你們應該好好回去檢討因為有海巡署的立場必須捍衛請委員能夠支持你講得真好啊不要開始我們的質詢啊就是因為要捍衛海巡的立場啊"},{"start":9247.344,"end":9254.847,"text":"我告訴你在場每一個立法委員都非常支持基層依法行政這件事情沒有人質疑我還沒有請你回答我會給你時間啦好不好主委你先聽我把話講完"},{"start":9260.052,"end":9283.562,"text":"為什麼我們都講說要支持執法這就是因為我們要支持基層依法行政所以今天才要排這個專案報告我第一個要請問這個主委的問題是我們每一次現在有這些爭議的海域對不對有那麼多的船隻進進出出那請問平常海巡在執法的時候是以驅離為原則還是以登船這個檢查為原則請主委回答"},{"start":9284.122,"end":9307.179,"text":"跟委員報告我今天的最新的資料沒有在手中但是根據事發當天我們今年驅離213艘才扣留了4艘驅離213艘扣留的才只有4艘這個數字我想委員從這個數字可以知道執法有執法的依法行政的總統規定所以我現在就要問你在這邊把話講清楚什麼時候要驅離"},{"start":9311.562,"end":9330.689,"text":"什麼時候要上船登檢?有沒有SR?山無絕對扣留山無是法有明文規定兩岸人民關係條例明文規定山無船無名船百分之百我們就是一定要經過登檢以後處理那當然嘛既然是要登船要扣留對不對?所以就越追越近了是不是?那天當初的狀況就是這樣是不是?"},{"start":9331.909,"end":9334.711,"text":"委員我們的同仁在那種過程中跳上船是有可能被夾到的沒錯吧我們的同仁還三根指頭被夾斷"},{"start":9348.179,"end":9372.334,"text":"我們的同仁已經受傷不是在所有登船的事件當中我們有很多的這樣的一個傷痕在身上在國際海巡的執法慣例上通常啦如果要這個停船受檢那當然就會比較有衝突性也比較有危險性嘛甚至很多地方會做失能性射擊甚至考慮集塵那麼碰撞其實是這個執法的替代方法我還沒有問你你不要再這樣這很過分好不好"},{"start":9374.336,"end":9397.194,"text":"所以我們用靠近的方式有的時候可能會有碰撞本來就是在所難免的事情嘛 對不對是嘛 對不對我跟你講我們今天把這話講清楚就是因為我們沒有無意要指責基層啊但是總要知道真相嘛你要先知道真相才能尋求善了所以剛剛很多委員都很關心有沒有密錄器我告訴你有沒有密錄器影響的是什麼"},{"start":9401.738,"end":9413.995,"text":"我們會比較迅速的對於案情有比較多的了解這一點我們痛加檢討而且也成立了小組在未來如何確實的落實的部分還有整個過程我們都會做全盤的檢討"},{"start":9415.222,"end":9440.007,"text":"我告訴主委108年大概也是在這裡開會雖然那時候本席還不是立法委員但那個時候大概也是因為海巡執法的關係內政委員會就做成決議兩個月以內要研議要處理讓大家都有密錄器108年就要講說把這個品質提升起來到了現在還會發生這樣的事然後完全沒有畫面主委我告訴你沒有密錄器沒有畫面影響的就是基層的權益因為我們現在連話都講不清楚"},{"start":9443.588,"end":9471.776,"text":"連話都講不清楚的時候我們怎麼幫基層執法委員講話這確實是保護雙方所以我們會痛加減討所以你現在講痛加減討現在就是痛加減討我痛加減討我承受指責現在台灣政治這麼好搞就對了在整件事情上 包含主委今天稍早開會的時候在講我一肩扛起這話講得多好聽啊現在講一肩扛起只要被罵就叫一肩扛起這麼簡單嗎請問這件事情發生到現在誰負責了負起了什麼政治責任付出了什麼代價請你回答"},{"start":9473.186,"end":9483.259,"text":"報告委員海巡依法行政取締三無傳播造成意外沒有他們的過失剛剛署長所說三大原因"},{"start":9487.705,"end":9487.945,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":9503.986,"end":9526.077,"text":"我講你的管理失當我講你的該上去的裝備沒有準時上去嘛你的管理是高層的事情不是基本的事情嘛出事的時候管理階層就要檢討就要有人負起政治責任現在問題之所以大家講成這樣就是因為沒有人負起政治責任嘛大家期待你之所進退有所作為也是因為這樣嘛"},{"start":9526.997,"end":9528.238,"text":"本席從來保護他們到現在,此時此刻我還在保護他們。"},{"start":9543.012,"end":9565.159,"text":"根據海巡署召開的海巡署金門2014專案小組記者會,第9號海巡隊副隊長陳建文報告是坦承執法期間兩船有碰撞。金門地檢署2月20日對外說明,主任檢察官施嘉榮表示,訊問金門海巡隊執行隊員表示,張獅雙方高速行駛,退方不斷蛇行,雙方不慎發生碰撞,大陸快艇當場翻覆。"},{"start":9566.019,"end":9582.115,"text":"我剛剛前面已經幫你講了你既然說因為我不要涉及我以碰撞的方式處理這是一種選擇所以碰撞是執法的常態地檢署也講你們自己海巡裡面的人也講那就有嘛有就是有碰撞跟撞船不一樣碰撞跟撞船不一樣我們請專業來說明好嗎"},{"start":9583.797,"end":9598.789,"text":"碰撞和撞船是不是一樣?我們能不能讓我們的分署長用最專業的角度來解釋?你今天想要在這邊鬼扯這個我沒有意見我是請分署長要來說明這件事你現在最大的問題我現在在檢討你整件事情的處遇你第一時間你講它蛇行蕃蝠"},{"start":9600.45,"end":9600.61,"text":"分署長回答"},{"start":9618.981,"end":9634.212,"text":"我們在執行登檢的過程裡面兩船會擦撞碰撞這個都是一個常態至於說碰撞的大小會不會影響到它翻覆的狀況這個由地檢署再做一個確認那我們在登檢這個碰撞擦撞這個都是一個常態"},{"start":9636.354,"end":9658.807,"text":"所以委員 當我第一時間看到海巡對外做那樣的說明的時候事後我了解 在海巡的語言裡面 燈檢就是包含一個持續碰撞的過程所以他們用那樣的語言來講的時候 事實上跟社會溝通的語言不一樣所以你在這邊就等於承認是有碰撞吧"},{"start":9659.267,"end":9660.389,"text":"這個海巡第一時間沒有講所以我替他們來講的時候"},{"start":9675.006,"end":9692.236,"text":"委員當碰撞的事實要說明又沒有錄影帶要一起說明的時候主委啊那絕對是一個跟社會溝通的問題你知道社會大眾現在怎麼解釋這件事嗎一開始說他們舌形翻覆所以我們的執法院幹啥一開始後來講到哇完蛋有碰撞可能這次有爭議"},{"start":9692.836,"end":9700.721,"text":"後來你最近因為專案報告的名稱你又要堅持沒有碰撞然後你現在在這裡回答我的時候你又說有碰撞這叫顛三倒四啦各位這個事情我看還有得講啦光是你的反反覆覆啊就讓這件事情更加複雜"},{"start":9715.209,"end":9721.75,"text":"主席,對不起,時間暫停一下好,我們請主委的對相關的說分談說我只是海巡署﹖可以直接對海警傳開火﹖認知作戰做到這種地步,我是不接受的"},{"start":9744.855,"end":9757.047,"text":"我承受,連一個報紙的社論都可以造謠到這種地步,說我下令海巡署可以對海警船直接開火,這是大暴的社會。但我在臉書說也會被人交代啊。"},{"start":9765.175,"end":9781.419,"text":"請你就不要再回答問題,因為牛委員沒有問你這個問題,謝謝尊重一下立法委員的諮詢權啦,前面已經不尊重趙薇的排案權,現在又要不尊重立法委員的諮詢權這裡是你答詢的場合,不是你開記者會的場合,你搞清楚啊第三部分我要接著問啦現在,我這個也要請一下陸委會主委,可能要一起說明好不好,麻煩你,謝謝"},{"start":9791.75,"end":9816.423,"text":"現在狀況 中共國台辦發表立場啦 直接宣誓說這個禁止水域不存在他不是嘴巴講而已啊 現在人家海警船也進來啦進來的時候 愛怎麼搞怎麼搞 我們看那個巡航軌跡感覺還蠻順暢的就好像照他規劃的這樣子繞了好幾圈一樣今天來一下 明天又來一下 好像非常態變成常態 本席非常擔心啦我們都支持海巡執法"},{"start":9817.003,"end":9841.903,"text":"但我們也支持執法不分對象剛剛你講針對山無漁船 對不對我們這甚至要登船臨檢這是你的SOP我們當然覺得沒有問題 對不對我們剛剛在討論的是你在處理整件事情的時候進退失據讓一件意外變成政治風暴這是高層這是你們在管理單位無能的地方現在我們要看的是接下來可能會發生什麼事啊現在狀況是海警船登堂入室啊"},{"start":9842.443,"end":9846.885,"text":"請問海巡先請管主委再回答一下海巡是要處理呢還是不處理委員我建議這個問題由署長來回答我們要知道的是最專業最真實的事為什麼不讓署長回答呢我時間有限我給你30秒請好我們有請署長謝謝"},{"start":9865.001,"end":9894.319,"text":"非常感謝委員給我這個機會說明我想你現在剛剛我就單就這個問題來回答海警船現在目前從2月14號以後發生這件事情以後他們每天刻意的在白天平均在6到7艘那曾經有高達過11艘不僅海警船還有海監船還有公務船還有海巡船所以他們的意圖就是圍繞著金門對他進來了處理不處理"},{"start":9894.679,"end":9909.953,"text":"要不要處理?怎麼處理?有沒有驅離?為什麼沒有影響他們的航跡?我們當然有,我們的船就是一直跟他對應著,我們在我們的禁止水域內,對他們不斷的廣播跟驅離,這些我都可以提拔,OK,我可以提拔,沒有問題,沒有問題,會,我會給你五秒留給陸委會主委,一樣"},{"start":9919.242,"end":9946.906,"text":"我們要求書門這個禁止跟禁制水域是不是兩岸雙方的默契基本上從81年10月那國防部根據兩岸條例他公布了禁限制水域那這個禁限制水域30幾年來雙方都有這樣的一個默契有默契嘛對不對出現歧異的時候怎麼處理有沒有處理方式基本上我想海巡單位都有他的SOP沒有我講的是兩岸之間有沒有做協商跟討論"},{"start":9947.786,"end":9952.708,"text":"他們都有一個處理的經驗...我剛剛已經跟你講你書面就好如果我們現在講說遇到這樣子的問題海軍署長在你後面請問你是支持他強力執法還是你要呼籲他冷靜一點"},{"start":9962.893,"end":9983.106,"text":"我想當然支持他執法啦 但是是不是強力不是 他們本來狀況不同啊 因為我們現在沒有辦法假設到底是珊瑚船還是一般的漁船還是貨船沒有我講海警船喔 中共的船 中共的船那我想他們都有SOP 我們國軍也有SOP對 本來他們有SOP 所有的狀況不同 我們沒有辦法現在一一的"},{"start":9985.547,"end":10012.921,"text":"主委,你剛剛有聽清楚我的問題嗎?一個是,是不是雙方默契?第二,認知出現歧異的時候是怎麼處理?你跟兩岸,就現在遇到這樣的狀況,你的回去處理是什麼?第三個是執法,剛剛你這三個,一樣我請你會後用書面回覆本席,可以嗎?主委,前期未充分準備,中期處理進退失據第三,事後方向不明確,該有人負起政治責任,謝謝"},{"start":10014.178,"end":10038.892,"text":"好,非常謝謝牛徐廷委員的質詢也謝謝我們所有官員的回答請不要忘記了剛剛委員所提的你們有一些書面報告請你們儘速提到本委員會然後參與我們所有本委員會的委員來參考謝謝我們繼續請許新穎委員但是跟委員報告一下我們待會跟王美惠委員詢討完之後呢我們休息五分鐘的時間讓大家這個上個洗手間好嗎?謝謝,有請新穎委員"},{"start":10052.039,"end":10059.945,"text":"主席、我們各位委員、各位官員還有各位媒體大家好首先本席想請海委會管主委"},{"start":10069.071,"end":10091.147,"text":"首先本席想先就教育部從邊的國語詞典修訂本來向您來做一個簡單的教育撞的其中一個意思就是碰擊那例如撞車所以今天我們的題目金門撞船事件這個"},{"start":10094.704,"end":10111.522,"text":"碰撞的意思就是碰觸撞擊剛剛您在答詢牛許廷委員的時候您也一直的講碰觸所以這個撞跟碰撞都是一種描述客觀事實的動詞"},{"start":10112.813,"end":10139.323,"text":"如果撞帶有故意的意思那我本席想請教2020年1月2日空軍黑鷹直升機在新北烏來山區撞山失事是故意的嗎?這個巴巴水災漂流木撞擊漁船致受災專案救助計畫難道漂流木有意識?難道是故意的嗎?所以希望"},{"start":10140.236,"end":10168.497,"text":"管主委．包含我們海委會．我們海巡單位不要在文字上去做過多的解釋其次在海商法第三條下列船舶除因碰撞外不是用本法之規定它也是用碰撞海事報告規則第一條本規則所稱海事指船舶沉沒、擱淺、碰撞所以"},{"start":10169.759,"end":10180.713,"text":"這個部分希望管主委可以去查不要自己想自己對那再來本席也要再次的來譴責就是"},{"start":10181.946,"end":10199.239,"text":"您篡改我們召委的這個專案報告的題目其實不只是這個不尊重立法院不只是藐視國會您更是毀憲亂政是毀壞我們憲法的現行犯所以"},{"start":10201.145,"end":10218.602,"text":"本席還是在這裡,要求您道歉認錯,可以嗎?委員,這件事情發展到現在,我想...那停,你不用回答,你願不願意道歉認錯?其實委員,從昨天我公開道歉認錯,我昨天..."},{"start":10222.005,"end":10226.849,"text":"我幾經斟酌兩個價值我必須要平衡的時候我所致的意就是用這樣的方式來表達所以你昨天傳給我們的高金昭偉你說失禮結果今天的報告還是用你的這個題目"},{"start":10251.087,"end":10266.968,"text":"完全的真的藐視國會回憲亂政接下來本席要掌握時間我們非常的捍衛海巡的立場剛剛海巡署也這樣說您也這樣說"},{"start":10268.206,"end":10293.562,"text":"真正的捍衛就是要拿出證據說明真相所以本席要再次請教檢方是否有查扣傳播軌跡資料兩艘船的有沒有交給檢方的資料我們是請分署長來說明等一下我沒有要請分署長您身為海委會主委發生這麼大的事您應該知道"},{"start":10294.69,"end":10317.955,"text":"大陸的漁船跟我們的1051艇的船舶軌跡資料我們台灣這邊雷達資料或是兩艘船有沒有船舶軌跡資料有沒有交給地檢署本席就問這個問題跟我報告的是有有所以我現在跟你確認兩艘船都有嗎兩艘船都有好"},{"start":10318.815,"end":10333.789,"text":"那各位兩艘船的軌跡都有我們是不是可以就軌跡的比對我們就知道到底有沒有碰撞跟委員報告檢察官他會根據船本身的事件檢察官有檢察武器"},{"start":10334.77,"end":10337.053,"text":"我現在要捍衛我們海巡弟兄的立場所以第一個既然有傳播軌跡資料"},{"start":10356.454,"end":10359.755,"text":"媒體報導兩船接近巡邏艇長下令登船檢查那中國快艇突然甩尾急轉不讓海巡人員登船是否是事實"},{"start":10384.271,"end":10396.257,"text":"所有的案情的說明委員為什麼今天一直到現在我們署長才把剛剛講的三個原因說出來因為所有的案情所有的案情都應該由檢察官來還原我沒有要他講這個"},{"start":10400.859,"end":10415.551,"text":"好,非常謝謝,請所有尊重一下委員的質詢剛剛我也有在聽,牛委員質詢的時候,我們署長說的一再的,他只是在說明什麼,船為什麼會翻但是我們現在要確認的是"},{"start":10416.552,"end":10441.593,"text":"當我們要這個下令登船檢查的時候那到底是不是中國快艇突然甩尾急轉不讓海巡人員登船所以造成不小心碰撞或是不小心怎麼樣然後才導致翻覆你們是一直的強調為什麼會翻覆我剛剛有聽我聽得很清楚所以不用再講現在我的問題就是是不是"},{"start":10443.035,"end":10444.776,"text":"其實你的回覆我們大家就知道那應該就是如此嘛"},{"start":10472.876,"end":10495.341,"text":"那再來我們這個有人說兩岸的默契只要這個船越界船呢使離境線水域我們海巡人員就會返回執勤地區那當時呢其實是大陸快艇他更深入了我方的海域所以才發生追捕事件那這個情況是否屬實"},{"start":10496.561,"end":10497.161,"text":"本席要問當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的是庭長還是岸上指揮?"},{"start":10511.63,"end":10512.83,"text":"本席為什麼問這一題?因為現在我們看到媒體報導"},{"start":10540.777,"end":10555.38,"text":"檢方他以過失致人於死的這種法律責任朝向這方面申辦當然我們不希望因為我在庭我們海巡人員不能讓海巡人員去擔這個法律責任所以我們要知道"},{"start":10555.78,"end":10576.804,"text":"是誰下的指令所以按照剛剛我們主委所說的那是我們庭長是庭長委員我們按記通報的時候循環區就會調度調度以後整個執法的過程所以有庭長也有按上指揮整個執法的過程不會去指揮他說你這個是要驅離還是沒有我們的署長已經點頭了沒有署長已經點頭了沒有沒有"},{"start":10584.605,"end":10585.046,"text":"我剛剛在講的時候"},{"start":10600.915,"end":10618.3,"text":"當天指揮CP1051追緝作業的時候,委員請...不是從頭到尾一個長官在指揮嗎?那是...對對對有啊,所以這中間一定有互通嘛,然後所以我們的庭長還有岸上指揮,大家就狀況然後來下令,所以那一天應該是..."},{"start":10619.56,"end":10620.02,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員"},{"start":10650.441,"end":10656.567,"text":"我們一直希望司法能夠把這個真相真實的呈現這個就是為什麼我們一直沒有對外說明的原因我們不希望影響司法的判斷"},{"start":10665.635,"end":10684.405,"text":"我們當然希望我們兼顧偵查不公開兩岸互信台灣人民權益保障和未來兩岸協同執法繼續推動那我們還是希望海委會要釐清事實向社會完整說明那今天在報告的時候這個管主委有提到"},{"start":10685.385,"end":10699.925,"text":"因為現在呢,我們雙方,兩岸雙方都互不信任,如果送請公正專業的第三方團體機構鑑定,管主委是否同意?是,我們也希望這樣做,同時檢調..."},{"start":10703.209,"end":10703.449,"text":"海巡署"},{"start":10721.9,"end":10725.124,"text":"我們非常希望不是請公正的第三方就非台灣非台灣非大陸都可以我們都可以因為這是一個我們已經請"},{"start":10736.977,"end":10737.337,"text":"最後本席要說"},{"start":10758.004,"end":10778.518,"text":"館主委,你位高權重,出入有隨乎,安全無虞但是,現在我們這個金門撞船事件,造成我們金門海域附近民間的漁會跟漁民朋友只能尋求自保"},{"start":10779.298,"end":10780.638,"text":"我必須要強調,我們依然在執法"},{"start":10801.843,"end":10803.965,"text":"我們希望你們繼續的執法合法我們為海巡鼓掌但是如果"},{"start":10819.557,"end":10848.223,"text":"未來檢察官起訴那我想請問我們管主委如果到時候真的有這種過失致死那您要如何治保?您會不會辭職?我今天所說的第一點已經非常的清楚本案有待於我們國家的司法制度來釐清您責任勿萬勿眾這是我們的待遇當然我們大家都希望而且我們希望是沒有擦槍走火"},{"start":10848.843,"end":10869.997,"text":"所以我們希望管主委您一定要為我們這個整個事件你要想的周全你不要再如此的這個態度強硬而且我們希望能夠對兩岸我們的勝意無以負加我們真的呼籲大家能不能一起呼籲對方也讓這件事情回歸人道好也謝謝管主委謝謝"},{"start":10876.881,"end":10878.022,"text":"蘇巧慧委員海巡署州署長"},{"start":10900.482,"end":10901.663,"text":"海巡署和各位海巡弟兄在我們的海疆裡面,他的最大的職責是什麼?"},{"start":10920.646,"end":10944.563,"text":"我們就是要捍衛我們的國土捍衛我們的海疆捍衛我們漁民的合法權益我們今天這個行動是取締非法保障合法從春山開始金門地區的漁民就開始跟我們報案說這個地區有不斷的有大陸的船隻進入來做非法的捕魚或者其他走私或者什麼的行為"},{"start":10945.143,"end":10945.303,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":10966.104,"end":10982.274,"text":"我們的雷達剛剛委員所問的這個整個是一個連續動作我們的雷達雷情一發現有陸級的快艇要進入到我們的境線之水域這個時候我們的戰情的職域人員就會通知CP"},{"start":10982.734,"end":10982.914,"text":"整個故事是這樣子"},{"start":11011.462,"end":11038.567,"text":"所以不是在海上接到通報以後我重新穿戴好以後然後整裝出發我是已經在海上不只在巡查當中趕往事發地點趕往被通報地點那是要被事發所以是一個正在巡視海疆每天每天不分眾頁巡視海疆的狀況下接到通報去到有不明船艦的地點"},{"start":11039.187,"end":11042.708,"text":"請問署長你可不可以把當天發生事故的主因你剛剛說有三點你可不可以再簡短陳述一次我想一個就是"},{"start":11064.178,"end":11066.599,"text":"高速大轉彎 按照艦船操縱的特性 像這種高速"},{"start":11084.042,"end":11110.124,"text":"大轉彎他那天是右轉因為我們看後來的施政他是在右滿舵對這樣子的傳播這種快艇的操船特性他一定就是會右傾對那麼另外第二個我講配重那他為什麼要高速行駛啊他在逃避我們的追查所以看起來所以那天的狀態是兩艘船艦我們的船艦聽到了通報以後追逐過去以後看到了這一艘三無傳播是"},{"start":11110.424,"end":11130.925,"text":"然後呢?然後開始開始開始進行追逐我們要開始他從我們先廣播對聲音響信號我們一定是標準的程序對我們一定會先廣播對請你離開這個水域對如果我們要登檢先警告了嘛我們會先警告對而且我們會廣播請你減速好我們必須要登檢"},{"start":11131.525,"end":11132.946,"text":"藍色是我們的 紅色是他們的逃走 準備逃走"},{"start":11154.32,"end":11170.229,"text":"在這個過程當中都是高速的是他看到我們的時候他就開始高速他在兩分鐘之內的速度從零加到這一段你現在描述的這一段是有影響的嗎現在描述的這一段是有影響的嗎其實這個我們不能講"},{"start":11172.91,"end":11197.623,"text":"但是今天因為剛剛有很多委員都提到你們有沒有雷達的航跡跟影像對如果稍微我們一般人都知道我們怎麼可能沒有雷達的航跡跟影像所以剛剛的資料全部都交給減掉了是他到底是不是陸方所講的他是停在那邊好對我們高速過來撞擊那這個船我們吊起來看說360度各位看"},{"start":11198.123,"end":11224.095,"text":"他除了左舷這個船沿的地方的六分之一處有一個破縫一個明顯的撞擊的點以外其他整個船身整個船身是FRP的而且沒有一點的破洞也沒有大凹洞連凹的地方都沒有那如果是他講的我們40節的高速這樣子垂直撞到他"},{"start":11225.106,"end":11226.427,"text":"一般漁船會開到40節嗎?一般漁船最多10節"},{"start":11242.398,"end":11242.538,"text":"各位請看"},{"start":11256.175,"end":11275.909,"text":"在這個船的前面在這一張各位看它在它的右側還有一個起網機這個起網機也是一個很重的東西是它要來違法到我們的水域裡面把這個布的網再起起來就是它布的網它在裡面捕魚"},{"start":11276.81,"end":11297.923,"text":"那這個騎網機也正好在右旋那他那天跟我們追逐到最後我們在區裡準備登檢的時候登檢是一定要破鏡嘛這是實情你不破鏡你怎麼登檢在這個登檢的過程當中雙方都是高速這樣子的高速過程當中請問委員你認為會不會有差創你認為會不會有這種互相之間的這種"},{"start":11302.606,"end":11325.175,"text":"所以我們為什麼我們在這個影片上面我們希望能夠證明我們平常的登檢就是這樣的這是實情我們從來沒有隱瞞實情我跟委員報告我們從事發到現在我們一直遵照檢調的指示我們不可以對外透露所有的案情所以你現在我還要強調一點所有的雷達"},{"start":11326.335,"end":11342.691,"text":"是可以看到這個目標這兩個不管是我們的還是中共的這個快艇航向、航速是非常清楚的這雷達是可以看出你航向、航速它的位置在什麼地方它是不是在我們禁限制的水域還是"},{"start":11344.249,"end":11369.897,"text":"我們胡亂揪一個故事告訴你們這些都是用雷達的這些行動表示出來但是這個我們都不應該講這叫留給剪掉去說我知道你很委屈啦也為我們的海巡弟兄委屈因為整段的故事就是一個我國的海巡弟兄在保江衛土的狀況下進行在海上接到通報要去驅逐"},{"start":11370.697,"end":11385.409,"text":"而發現他是一艘三無船舶之後警告之後他想要逃逸所發生的狀況最後有不幸的結果但我們現在接受調查所有的資料你都已經提供給檢調對不對是一個這樣的狀況也希望國人能夠理解嘛其實你整個的狀況是這樣何況你歸納的經驗其實是"},{"start":11393.436,"end":11412.307,"text":"第一,這艘大陸的珊瑚船舶高速行駛第二,它在逃避追逐的時候向右急轉第三,坦白講你們現在調查過,你也認為船長經驗不足這是三大翻船的主因因為這個調查不是只有我方的四個團隊還有兩位生還者各位還要記住還有兩位大陸生還者"},{"start":11414.511,"end":11414.911,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":11435.063,"end":11435.303,"text":"委員會主委"},{"start":11455.772,"end":11481.132,"text":"我想請問,基於這樣的事實,你為什麼認為今天的報告,我剛剛聽管主委在說的時候,報告名稱的更改其實是海巡署建議的,為什麼你們提出了這樣的建議?這跟你現在的談判有沒有重要關係?如果有的話當然要能夠多事一件,剩下30秒。好,我想委員,因為主委他對這件事情的態度一直就是"},{"start":11482.534,"end":11492.534,"text":"﹗"},{"start":11492.796,"end":11501.959,"text":"每天都在這樣做我們是取締非法我現在要知道的是剩下10個秒這個名稱你對於談判有沒有影響當然就是糾結在這個名詞大委員你講的完全正確因為這個可能就是一個責任的歸屬將來如果說你們"},{"start":11518.524,"end":11544.687,"text":"你們國內都這樣講是碰撞或者是什麼撞船或者是這些他說你們自己都這樣講那你怎麼能怪我們說這是你們撞船因為這個撞船的這個動力跟這個我們平常兩個我剛剛特別解釋就在你們海巡專案裡面這有特別的用法嗎沒有什麼特殊的用法但是你說撞船的話那個感覺就是現在陸防的說法"},{"start":11545.347,"end":11572.766,"text":"所以現在中國在談判的過程中就是用你們撞船這樣子的名詞嗎?是用撞船兩個字在把責任扣到你身上?你的意思是這樣嗎?所以你沒有辦法接受?我不能透露我們這個溝通的過程但是你拒絕接受這個名詞?當然當然所以這就是一個態度我可以這樣理解嗎?可以你無法透露但你沒有辦法接受在這裡報告這個名詞我要請委員聚焦我們現在是取第三無傳播"},{"start":11573.366,"end":11586.935,"text":"因為我們剛剛有其他委員很認真的還查自己請你給我20秒我再做個解釋這個三無全部不是只有我們在查起我剛剛有特別跟另外一位委員質詢的時候講我們光是去年112年"},{"start":11588.456,"end":11610.619,"text":"中方要求我方跟他協同執法就有49次那個概念就是說我每個月跟中方他的海事單位或者是海巡單位或者是海洋事務的單位他會要求我們海巡跟他一起合作在各自的水域當中去查其這種違法的走私的"},{"start":11610.979,"end":11611.619,"text":"邀請海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":11634.093,"end":11654.239,"text":"大陸跟我們之間共同來維持這段水域正當漁民的一個捕魚的一個合法的權益另外我們是要保障這些合法的權益我們要防止那些濫捕濫啃這些他們經常跑到我們的水道撲下一些漁網"},{"start":11655.419,"end":11657.881,"text":"那個不光是影響我們漁民的權益也影響航行安全"},{"start":11676.478,"end":11690.983,"text":"資料是一件一件拿出來所以責任不在我方的我們金魚我們是執行我們應有的權益保障合法取締非法該讓的我們是可以慰福、表達善意但"},{"start":11691.463,"end":11693.545,"text":"不該讓的我們絕對一步都不能退包括我們的名詞用法也不應該造成未來談判的困擾所以在這裡我是完全支持海巡弟兄的至於在國會的程序上如何可以更周圍當然我們彼此之間是同事我們可以再更進一步的來了解但"},{"start":11712.06,"end":11732.478,"text":"支持海巡地修我想這是不分黨派我們要讓海巡地修有最好的配備最好的權力也是我們作為他們最大的後盾這一點我想請署長放心我要跟召委抱歉正式的抱歉這個題目是我們海巡署昨天前天我們在禮拜五下午就寫了我們的撰稿人就在現場"},{"start":11734.12,"end":11759.28,"text":"所以我要跟委員稍微真正抱歉不用跟我抱歉我覺得你今天今天你如果有誠意的話你今天的專案報告也應該要如草繪委員所講的詢問的我們似乎好像是從媒體或者是委員的答詢當中你們才一點一點一點的透出來現在很清楚是說你們是有行軌跡圖的"},{"start":11761.181,"end":11772.807,"text":"所以你們只是交給了檢調但是你們一直對外是說沒有所以現在對於釐清真相的是有的對不對巧惠所以呢謝謝巧惠剛剛的質詢我們一點一點才知道抽絲剝繭也謝謝署長的回應謝謝好謝謝巧惠委員繼續我們請張宏祿委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":11792.422,"end":11796.285,"text":"我還是請署長好 我們還是請署長署長 剛剛聽你這樣子我覺得名稱其實對後續的影響很大 對不對就是撞船啊 碰撞啊 什麼的我不能講說不大因為我們現在的專案小組"},{"start":11819.144,"end":11821.147,"text":"責任的歸屬在我方的立場一直非常明確我們希望經由我們司法"},{"start":11835.606,"end":11851.137,"text":"公正的調查 同時剛剛委員都提到由第三方的公正單位不光是檢調的調查也不光是這些海事的調查也不光是各種的看驗而且要請一個第三個公正單位來看這些物理現象這些"},{"start":11852.378,"end":11880.269,"text":"海事的一個規則以及他們習慣上可能會產生的一個結果所以我們為什麼把這些資料全部提供給檢調我們而不對這些資料做任何的發表言論是因為我們要非常尊重我們台灣的司法制度我們不可以講一大堆有的沒有的去影響這件事情同時我也要跟委員報告我們這段時間從2月14號以後我們的同仁承受很大的壓力"},{"start":11881.269,"end":11896.661,"text":"因為我們也希望我們的同仁不要對外去講這些事情但他們心裡面也受到很大的煎熬不但是我們的同仁我們同仁的眷屬也受到很大的壓力因為外界一直對這些事情有很多的揣測"},{"start":11897.702,"end":11926.035,"text":"那我們做的事情的報告我們僅止於我們所了解但是剪掉調查部分我們是不可以公開的我們是不可以把這些資料譬如說這雷達的資料如果我今天可以拿到這個現場給大家看一下那我相信馬上各位就會有一個公平但是我們不能做這些事情因為這是剪掉專業的事情這個你剛剛已經說了那我問你啦有一件事情可不可以讓大家知道是"},{"start":11926.795,"end":11938.147,"text":"我們的艇現在艇在哪裡?我們現在的艇跟另外那一艘快艇現在全部被這個形式"},{"start":11939.195,"end":11940.836,"text":"有保密說誰都不能看嗎?"},{"start":11960.836,"end":11976.138,"text":"我們有規定不可以讓任何人看不可以讓任何人看對,有覆蓋那我問一下,副長,我不知道各位透露我們的艇有任何破損或擦撞的痕跡嗎?或我們去撞到人的痕跡,主動去撞人的痕跡嗎?"},{"start":11977.768,"end":11991.575,"text":"這可不可以透露這個內容我不知道恰不恰當透露但是就我們的我方的報告我不知道檢方的報告我們根依你海巡署的立場海巡署長講我們的我警車"},{"start":11993.496,"end":11995.137,"text":"所以如果沒有破損的情況之下你如果這艘艇去撞"},{"start":12020.632,"end":12029.827,"text":"故意像剛剛說的故意去撞擊這一艘商務的船舶你那麼多年當署長的經驗我們的艇會不會受損"},{"start":12032.725,"end":12060.074,"text":"因為我們兩邊都是FRP的材質照這樣高速的速度40節這樣子衝撞過去我認為會有一些最起碼會有一個凹痕或者破洞但是其實那天我們在吊著兩個證物的時候媒體記者都有拍左右旋360度都有拍到不管是我們的船跟對方的船現在所有360度"},{"start":12062.208,"end":12062.449,"text":"我們有一張圖"},{"start":12079.439,"end":12101.776,"text":"這是我們自己調查的因為我們第一時間我們自己海巡隊要做個初步的調查這是我們的船各位有沒有看到任何的破洞有沒有看到既然拿出來了我跟各位報告一下它的長是11.6米我們的長只有9.6米它的寬是2.7米我們的寬是2.8米"},{"start":12107.11,"end":12107.37,"text":"這次外面講的"},{"start":12120.959,"end":12149.278,"text":"這我們真的是我們這是事實這就是我們的照片這是我們的扣押的現在已經被扣押在這個證物的那我們這個是我們自己內部的一個這跟檢調無關所以我還是要強調所有的事實真相一定要有檢調來說我們不能說不是署長給檢調的我們當然知道但剛剛署長也有提到當天在處理這個時候其實媒體也有拍到嘛對不對我們的船"},{"start":12151.559,"end":12162.283,"text":"是沒有任何的損害 只有一點點的那個擦撞一點點擦撞 然後 對不對但你敢保證這個擦撞是這次造成的嗎我不能這樣講對嘛齁 因為是 來 書長你先聽我講完"},{"start":12166.465,"end":12182.431,"text":"一般國際慣例跟我們在舉例非法的一般就是他如果不停船我們當然是會慢慢靠近慢慢靠近我要登船臨潔偶爾都會碰撞對不對我還要強調還有另外一個場景委員沒有考量到"},{"start":12183.551,"end":12197.805,"text":"陸方的船翻船之後我們的船第一時間在做什麼事全部在做救難救人因為我下的第一個命令就是以救人為主那天我就在我們海巡署的請指中心第一時間我們副署長"},{"start":12198.986,"end":12200.407,"text":"這個船隻到底是怎麼回事?或者是有什麼狀況?"},{"start":12223.12,"end":12250.012,"text":"那都是後來後來因為檢方要求要扣押這兩艘船給它釣到陸岸上不可以在水裡面所以說我們現在是釣到陸岸上的過程當中我們媒體也有拍到這些照片這不是我們要刻意透露這個照片對我知道所以我們現在我立法委員質詢你嘛所以現在一個很事實很清楚的問題就是說很清楚的我們的海巡署的艇沒有"},{"start":12250.532,"end":12251.774,"text":"後續因為我們在救援的過程當中我們有一個救援的照片我們那個"},{"start":12268.556,"end":12271.939,"text":"因為有一個我們一直沒有找到所以我們後來緊急"},{"start":12294.818,"end":12317.999,"text":"就馬上派潛水人員再派船過去我們的潛水人員立刻下去之後在第二次下水的時候才在那個駕駛艙裡面找到這個船長那整個的事實救援的過程我們從開始碰撞到現在雷達的那個回擊的現象那這種的時間如果是一點時分的話我們在"},{"start":12319.898,"end":12337.566,"text":"三點五十就把最後一個人救起來了那就是兩點、三點、四點就三個小時之內我們把四個人立刻從這個失事的水域把人都救起來這個各位也可以去追查一下過往我們這樣子的一個救生救難的這個經驗"},{"start":12339.347,"end":12339.928,"text":"這一點我必須要教訓"},{"start":12364.523,"end":12382.208,"text":"另外我還要強調我們這些每一個救護的人員送到案的時候那個救護車是消防局的他每一個救護車上面都有錄影都有時間那個時間就可以證明我們到底有沒有延誤我們什麼時候給他我們第一個"},{"start":12384.889,"end":12386.77,"text":"1點33分我們2點鐘就把他送到碼頭2點2分3點5分那個救護車就到現場為什麼我們在海上已經請"},{"start":12407.516,"end":12421.976,"text":"請我們的請指中心先申請救護車趕快先到最近的那個碼頭我們過去之後就把人送上去一直在急救好署長所以啦齁事件的關係啦我這樣的結論你看都不對啦齁第一個"},{"start":12422.857,"end":12435.606,"text":"從我們的艇現狀來看不像外界所說的我們是故意去衝撞故意去衝撞造成它的翻覆這個應該剛剛你講的我認為結論是這樣第一個沒有錯嘛第二個積極救援剛剛署長你說的就是這樣嘛對不對所以問題要講出來而且署長"},{"start":12447.745,"end":12467.676,"text":"我之前我在質詢我都要求你們要挺我們海巡弟兄要錢給錢要什麼給什麼我們都是這樣我們就希望他積極執法啦對不對我覺得你也要讓我們海巡弟兄有這個感覺你這個長官是挺他們的那我也覺得後續未來"},{"start":12469.057,"end":12492.783,"text":"我也覺得我們要積極的執法不能因為這件事情那讓以後所有的這一種傳播來讓我們的漁民苦無生計然後我們國安出現漏洞我覺得這個才是我們現在要的一個態度對不對那至於你剛剛說的你們海巡的堅持如果是用撞船或什麼會影響後續這個你今天這樣講大家都知道了所以"},{"start":12493.903,"end":12507.409,"text":"必須要有一個很清楚的跟大家講所以我剛剛所說的這幾點結論是不是都沒有錯沒有錯沒有錯嘛齁但是我們還是要強調我們現在所有的資訊跟所有的證據都送給檢調我們不能夠下定論一定要由檢調來做一個公正的評論"},{"start":12515.592,"end":12515.612,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12539.5,"end":12546.306,"text":"好,非常謝謝張宏祿委員的質詢,謝謝也非常謝謝署長的回應,有請王美惠委員,謝謝好,我們再請署長要不要先喝一口水好,謝謝"},{"start":12565.452,"end":12570.594,"text":"市長,在剛開始開會到現在,兇手就是你了。大家都在美冠馬主委說他在這個地方,在這裡我認為,我們台灣國會這個議員,我們也覺得應該要捍衛台灣的主權,因為我覺得長久以來,"},{"start":12591.226,"end":12597.13,"text":"大家發生事情的時候,大家都不滿意,因為在這個地步的時候,你能夠跟主委說,你怎麼不跟主席說呢?他是沒辦法接受你說的,還是你根本就不跟他說,再來在剛才你所解說的,說實在,我看我們海巡署說實在,非常可憐,非常無奈,"},{"start":12621.646,"end":12634.069,"text":"因為你說常常聲聲鼓鼓說捍衛我們海巡視我們這裡的兄弟啦吼,但是在這個過程當中,自1994年到現在,每個人每個人每個人啦,我又看不到說每個人來到這裡,是要為台灣還是要為阿強啦,全部覺得是阿強的"},{"start":12648.724,"end":12649.186,"text":"會想法嗎．叫我講啥．跟我們來訪問他．因為若說後路外．在本席的臨地．"},{"start":12659.298,"end":12665.923,"text":"小龍騎摩托車的小龍跟騎摩托車的小騎那是聽差一點的你若在做秘密的時候我覺得不小心把你騎到還是我若你跟你的小龍那時候做的是不一樣的所以在這個單位我認為你要講清楚是怎樣你的"},{"start":12685.618,"end":12689.947,"text":"去質疑說,不能說太濃,要說太稀你如果太濃的時候,說實話這就是惡質"},{"start":12698.817,"end":12705.12,"text":"因為常常我們都說要捍衛台灣移民的權益及主管的權益,但是回過頭來,我覺得我們真的,我們的海巡署在做的時候,我們是如何打擊它?"},{"start":12716.127,"end":12724.974,"text":"再次在這裏,到目前為止,您有話不能公開,不能公開,這樣分析給您問一下,到目前為止,您的協調、您的說話時,到現在您意想到什麼?"},{"start":12732.401,"end":12748.559,"text":"請第二位來謝謝委員剛剛您所講的我們都能夠體諒那您剛剛說了我們就是一個執法就是一個單一的事件那今天這麼一個單一的執法事件也不是第一次發生我們經常在海上處理"},{"start":12749.58,"end":12749.9,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":12768.533,"end":12768.553,"text":"〔廣告〕"},{"start":12787.318,"end":12787.698,"text":"我相信我們不管他發生"},{"start":12813.733,"end":12822.936,"text":"沒錯沒錯,我們都不願意發生這樣的憾事但是我們今天我們的專案小組到金門談了這麼多天,從15號我們的專案小組長就帶著我們的調查組長我們15號就已經進入,他們20號才來市長我再來請教一下,搞不好政委委員會還要求我們海巡視的人過一邊給他們調查"},{"start":12842.722,"end":12847.123,"text":"因為我必須要跟委員報告我們雙方協議就是我們之間的會談的內容我們不要公開來,市長,不公開的時候因為說實在"},{"start":12872.705,"end":12873.985,"text":"因為不管是什麼人對不對"},{"start":12899.77,"end":12901.673,"text":"畢竟有兩個人過往的,我們就是要理清這個事情出來,不外乎會說,你們這個民進黨這層,又跳地在那裏霧,跟在那裏暗冷球"},{"start":12915.811,"end":12918.034,"text":"第一點,我們在這個整起事件上面"},{"start":12935.735,"end":12940.518,"text":"陸方一直要求一個真相我們也追求一個真相所以我們說我們要請我們的司法調查完了之後這個真相出來如果有救責有我們的責任我們絕對不規避你剛才說的船要經營"},{"start":12955.007,"end":12973.294,"text":"在一般的宣洩會判斷起來啦,原來你沒有這麼多但是我還要跟委員報告,就是我們因為雙方我講我們20年的合作,我們都有很好的默契平常他們要出來執法,我們要出去執法如果今天是協同執法,我們都會互通電話"},{"start":12975.035,"end":12990.304,"text":"邱主委特別有講到因為這是我們基層就是地方的事務我們直接海巡對海巡就聯絡了就可以做這件事情而且每次都會強調在雙方各自管轄的水域裡面做執法"},{"start":12991.464,"end":12999.746,"text":"這個都是我們的西區平常我必須要跟委員報告但是我要跟委員報告我們現在整個跟不管是家屬或者是對方的代表團紅十字會的這些顧問我們的重點就擺在我們希望能夠對死亡的家屬能夠多一點照顧"},{"start":13017.839,"end":13040.134,"text":"這也是我們國內很多的公教團體或者是我們的這些公益團體都有拜託我們希望我們能夠多照顧這樣子的一個家屬這是我們一直秉持的一個沒有啦 署長 大家照顧希望的家屬任何人都沒有犯罪的你今天要理清的專案就是要理清"},{"start":13043.456,"end":13048.059,"text":"當然這一定要由司法判決之後但是調查的結果出來之後跟社會大眾做一個說明所以我們不能說我們對我們不能這樣講因為陸方也會說他沒有錯我覺得這是一個很正常的一個想法當然啦不是啊 所有都是這樣你說你對我說我對就是讓他們去判斷你這個船會受傷是一對嘛對對可以考驗說你是龍還是蝦嘛"},{"start":13073.112,"end":13098.693,"text":"跟委員再做一個報告就是我們整個這個協商的過程當中我們最重要的一點就是說我們如何雙方避免未來在金下水域不要再發生類似的案件我們應該要注意這件事情那我們是不是雙方可以對這些山無船隻我們要嚴格的把關如果"},{"start":13099.895,"end":13118.96,"text":"如果陸方就讓他講出來的話反正像這三回沒辦法處理也要處理啦對 對 但是我們希望我們就是希望我們避免未來再發生類似的案事這是我們希望避免好 來 署長 最好我來請教一下到現在目前為止你們的合作後你們的這個名字是什麼來 你說一下你們的協商什麼名字"},{"start":13129.102,"end":13135.266,"text":"您的協商,您要去協商要寫什麼啊?請我們小組長、副組長來做個報告這位小組長啊,是不是我們的許副組長,是嗎?好來,來那協商過程的名稱我們都是一律使用彈劃紀要彈劃紀要?是阿沒說弄到、阿沒說碰撞、阿沒說什麼我就是說到2月10日發生這個事情"},{"start":13158.046,"end":13162.107,"text":"本席也了解,跟我們未來說實在,本席在這裡就是要告訴你們,你們的學生之後"},{"start":13174.091,"end":13179.472,"text":"我們都還在努力努力是哪個方面努力我們各方面都在努力我剛剛特別強調我們就是希望能夠在人道關懷的立場一定要對家屬提供很好的照顧"},{"start":13198.888,"end":13204.109,"text":"因為我認為,署長你說這樣是大家都認同的,你剛才說真的要讓人照顧,但我們看到副主席顧民東、副主席去告他們,說回來要立民進黨駕駛,我覺得很奇怪,是要駕駛什麼?"},{"start":13220.592,"end":13226.014,"text":"因為關心事情,我們是要求書論書來處理才對啊。你看他這樣,很高興的。跟他們國台辦的主任說回來要立法院進黨到時,哎呦,不要這樣啦。相為在台灣,回到什麼事情,我們是要合作來解決問題才對啦。不是在外面,要罵台灣人啦。這樣說實在啦,不夠假啦。"},{"start":13251.186,"end":13258.773,"text":"因為我看到這樣,我也覺得很奇怪,去到外國,跟他在台灣人,那些台灣人的退休金,加上美南台灣啊,你看他們不是民進黨的,是黨的。署長,你有覺得我說這樣,他說要回來的價值還是民進黨的嗎?"},{"start":13277.301,"end":13300.608,"text":"我要特別強調這次是一個單一的執法事件這是一個地方的一個單一的執法事件我們跟京下跟晉江之間這種事情我剛剛有特別舉例我們經常在執法的過程當中執行的時間後你有最好的可以提供我的拜託配合提供我的我剛才在問的意見以上"},{"start":13304.607,"end":13305.588,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13852.165,"end":13875.619,"text":"我們現在繼續開會我們請這個麻煩我還有一些官員好像還沒有回來是不是聯繫一下請他們趕快坐到位置上我們的管主委還沒有到所以請海巡署同仁是不是能夠聯繫一下管主委好 謝謝"},{"start":13878.018,"end":13878.038,"text":"黃婉嫻議員"},{"start":13907.489,"end":13907.509,"text":"黃婉婕議員"},{"start":13933.151,"end":13949.762,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席那我先開始在在此之前我要先表達一下我非常支持管主委對於這個名稱的更正因為我也認為在真相還沒有釐清之前不應該違背事實使用撞船這個名詞"},{"start":13950.663,"end":13978.576,"text":"所以我也希望接下來大家在司法的調查結果還沒有出來之前應該要尊重更用中性的字眼來定定那其實剛剛前面在程序發言的時候有非常多的委員都提到說過去沒有先例但其實在立法院裡面這個先例不只有而且非常多那其實以往都是互相尊重立法部門跟行政部門可以各自使用自己而認為的比較偏離中性以及符合自己立場的"},{"start":13979.736,"end":13979.796,"text":"主任委員．"},{"start":13998.277,"end":14024.718,"text":"我們維護自己的主權以及維護自己的治權應該是退無可退的萬一這件事情我們在這個名詞上面退了是不是會造成接下來非常嚴重的影響不管是說接下來談判的結果以及甚至到時候的教室的責任彼此的釐清沒有辦法進行下去甚至是一旦此門一開是不是變成說我們海巡署沒有辦法再好好的執法在執法的時候難道針對這些非法"},{"start":14026.96,"end":14027.821,"text":"首先我們請管主委"},{"start":14046.735,"end":14063.092,"text":"好 謝謝主委 我想要問一下就是關於2月14號這個金門海域發生的事情我想檢討是必要的因為沒有人希望看到這樣不幸的事件發生但是因為台灣是一個法治國家我們所做所有的事情都應該要執法有據"},{"start":14065.975,"end":14082.708,"text":"海巡署在這個執法的基礎上不只行之有年而且也寫的白紙黑字非常明確就是兩岸條例裡面29條、32條、42條其實都有寫到說中國的漁船不得進入台灣限制及禁止的水域"},{"start":14083.448,"end":14112.028,"text":"那如果未經許可進入了我們海巡署就必須要依法來驅離甚至扣留及傳播我們是不是過去兩岸都是在這樣的基礎跟默契上來執法的報告委員是兩岸人民關係條例這兩條還有施行細則的第42條照規定這個是依法有據這種三無的傳播我們就是扣留的程序登檢的程序扣留的程序來處理"},{"start":14112.568,"end":14112.908,"text":"其實就... 對不起"},{"start":14132.29,"end":14149.18,"text":"中國的法律比我們更嚴格。中國對於三如船這樣的傳播,如果被扣留了以後,他們抓到是一定扣留。扣留的時候,他們在拍賣的時候是把拆解包裝綁在這個拍賣中,你買去的一定要拆解。"},{"start":14149.48,"end":14153.604,"text":"一經查獲,一日沒收,而且罰款是船價兩倍,而且一定是最後要求適用拆解"},{"start":14167.719,"end":14192.699,"text":"所以其實中方在執法的過程當中他們不只是拆解末日乳甚至是他們用更嚴格的方式在進行取締嘛所以我不太理解的是在我們的政府非常積極的查緝的時候我們用非常克制的方式用非常理性的方式在照以往的慣例在處理但是還是有人要怪罪我們的海巡署說我們執法過當"},{"start":14194.901,"end":14195.221,"text":"我特別跟委員報告"},{"start":14223.884,"end":14244.779,"text":"這個十幾天當中我們沒有把這些案情說出來因為把這些案情說出來的時候兩岸在談判桌上正在溝通說出來的時候責任很明顯會歸於一方的時候這整個氣氛是我們跟家屬在談人道的撫慰可是我們談案情在說責任在對方"},{"start":14245.419,"end":14251.666,"text":"我理解我理解主委其實是非常善意而且也很有誠意的想要用最妥善然後釋出最大的善意來處理這件事情"},{"start":14267.103,"end":14293.364,"text":"但我還是要回到最源頭因為大家都知道這艘船就是一艘三無船沒有船名沒有船舶證書也沒有船籍港的登記那過去我們對於三無船其實是都是非常嚴加來查緝的因為三無船會造成我們合法船舶的權益的損害以及要保障我們合法漁民的權益所以必須要支持合法打擊非法這是一貫的立場對嗎"},{"start":14294.725,"end":14310.374,"text":"是,尤其是其實對海上的安全的影響也是很有疑慮的那無論如何我們依法有據的在依法行政執行這次的去地是一定要有這樣的一個執法的過程"},{"start":14310.714,"end":14334.14,"text":"所以在這件事情上面其實以往都是兩岸在共同打擊犯罪甚至是我們有一起來針對這些非法的船隻都有共同的處理對嗎在兩岸協談執法的過程當中我想我們海巡署經常也會收到對方希望說我們共同的對三無船要來加強取締我想這個在兩岸其實是我們的共識"},{"start":14335.14,"end":14353.852,"text":"沒有錯那我想針對這件事情其實以往都是這樣處理的但是我想要問的是這個事件本身請問這四位船員其中包括一位船長他們有沒有中國合法的漁民證書是沒有的他們沒有漁民證書嗎我們目前所知是沒有的"},{"start":14354.252,"end":14382.544,"text":"那請問一下這艘船他們是有勞補許可證跟漁業的船舶檢驗書的嗎?我想以這樣的串織我們目前所知道的資訊是沒有但是是不是容許這個部分如果要更精確的話我們艦隊分署或我們的偵防分署可能在這個部分會掌握比較更精確的資訊"},{"start":14385.795,"end":14405.643,"text":"有請分數長,謝謝委員好,有關於這4名船員他的身份的部分我們經過查證,包括生還者這2名的船員講他們的確是沒有所謂的證照包括船舶也是一樣,沒有所謂的船舶證書"},{"start":14407.475,"end":14435.009,"text":"所以他們不僅是三無船而且他們是無照駕駛對嗎可以這樣講那現在很明顯他們已經是在非法的處境之上而且是無照駕駛那接下來就要講說這個中國當時其實他們有宣稱說這四名船員他們是有停船受檢的但你們的檢查的結果是這樣子嗎這個絕對不是事實沒有在高速的行駛的過程之中"},{"start":14437.222,"end":14447.376,"text":"因為從最後,掉起來的船舶的最後狀態剛剛署長也有講了最後的狀態看到的是油門是全車"},{"start":14450.478,"end":14466.239,"text":"其實剛剛署長也有講到在台下有聽他有把最後這個船隻的狀態講得更明確他不只是全車前進而且是又滿舵即轉彎高速前進的狀態然後在這樣的狀態下加上這台這艘船它吃水很淺"},{"start":14467.541,"end":14467.781,"text":"當他以這樣的配重的比重的狀況"},{"start":14491.304,"end":14507.021,"text":"在以他又滿舵又是在高速開全車的狀況我們艦隊分署長曾經做的報告是即使沒有碰撞都是非常容易自行翻覆但是案情是什麼我們還是希望有檢調來釐清"},{"start":14508.683,"end":14532.49,"text":"好 那當然我們以上是提供一些事實的釐清讓檢調做最後的判斷到底造勢責任在誰那我相信造勢責任在誰已經很明確了那我想要問一個其實今天有聽到說談判到現在中方的談判的代表聽據說有要求我方的海巡人員要到中國問訊我想問一下是不是有這件事情"},{"start":14535.83,"end":14542.072,"text":"整個談判上面的誠信跟氛圍還有整個過程是不是我們請許副署長來說好委員好那在談判的我想用談判可能溝通我們是不是使用溝通這一個名詞來界定這樣的一個對話那在談溝通的過程當中是曾經有過這樣子的"},{"start":14564.381,"end":14571.253,"text":"對方有過這樣子的說明但是經過這幾天的這個溝通以後已經逐步的已經化解了"},{"start":14572.162,"end":14594.944,"text":"好那如果真有此事代表說我方的主權會有極大的受害影響希望我們要堅守我們的立場那這個在溝通的過程當中也必須要堅守我們執法的立場好那最後我想要講一下就是最後其實在這段期間有非常多人都要求我們主委以及海巡署要道歉"},{"start":14596.385,"end":14616.959,"text":"這件事情其實我必須要要求我們主委及海巡署絕對不能道歉我們不僅是無從道歉也沒有道理要道歉希望在司法調查以及責任釐清出來之前我們都不應該並且沒有任何執法的依據要來道歉好不好"},{"start":14618.219,"end":14644.057,"text":"兩個人命的過往我們是高度的遺憾跟哀悼也有很深的不捨之情但是因為事涉責任尚未釐清所以我們很誠懇的安排了兩次的道歉一次是對於說沒有這樣的一個收證的錄影導致於家屬十分的煎熬因為他們沒有辦法更迅速的來了解案情"},{"start":14644.697,"end":14651.199,"text":"所以對於沒有蒐證錄影的這一塊我們先由許副署長在金門的記者會上公開的道歉我也請我們的署長親自下去上香以及撫慰家屬在上香的時候也有對署長表達過歉意"},{"start":14664.424,"end":14692.73,"text":"我希望就是當然這個監控的部分監視器的部分接下來一定都要處理最後一定要保存我們自己那也希望說接下來我們在人力的部分如果有不足是不是接下來也可以試著改善是不是以兩艘為主來編制確保說現場的人力都是OK的然後都才不會有這種沒有辦法有人去錄影的狀態那最後就是有沒有看到說中國現在已經派出非常大噸位的執法船了2000噸"},{"start":14694.67,"end":14719.89,"text":"我們目前的這個頓位是不是跟他們沒有辦法對比是不是我們未來也可以考慮再加強派更大頓位的執法船來常駐呢?我想這個部分我們有一定的SOP那我們也有對局勢的一定的研判我想是不是容我們從海巡的專業以及整個海域"},{"start":14720.691,"end":14723.012,"text":"主委,我覺得該改善的就一定要改善,但是必須要堅守三大原則,就是我們的漁權、治權跟主權,這一定都要堅守住好嗎?"},{"start":14743.12,"end":14743.18,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14764.598,"end":14776.328,"text":"這個繼續我們請李博裕委員質詢那個我宣告一下等到這個召委我質詢結束的時候我們讓大家休息20分鐘用餐好不好謝謝謝謝齁那我們請那個海巡署周署長我請周署長"},{"start":14797.484,"end":14823.552,"text":"謝謝謝謝署長其實剛剛在這個程序發言的時候其實我就想要請你上來說明因為我從這個事件發生之後從這個專案報告裡面其實我們知道海巡署對於這個名稱是有意見而這個意見在哪裡這個意見是在於撞船跟執法跟你現在正在談判的這個過程是有相當絕對的影響"},{"start":14825.453,"end":14844.287,"text":"但是你有意見的這個過程當然你是必須透過海委會的主委透過管委員那管委員必須要跟我們這個內政委員會的召委來做一個溝通同時管委員也有責任讓我們全國的國人知道我們這個專案報告的內容是什麼"},{"start":14844.867,"end":14863.684,"text":"所以在這些種種的時間差造成今天早上內政委員會有一些大家有一些意見不一樣甚至對於目前的這個專案報告的名稱大家還是有一些意見的不同我想這個是事情的主因是在這裡是不是可以請署長你說明一下"},{"start":14864.545,"end":14887.968,"text":"撞船這個調查報告以及取締非法的這個調查報告內容會對於這個我們的談判的過程會造成大概怎麼樣的影響主委是謝謝委員但是我要說明之前我要先強調這是我們海巡署的立場所以可能海巡署如果沒有這個立場"},{"start":14889.989,"end":14913.116,"text":"這是我們海巡署的立場對我們第一線執法的人員會非常不公平趙偉出的這個題目我們把它海巡署做成這樣子一個題目來報告我個人對於這件事情我剛剛已經對趙偉做正式的抱歉非常抱歉但我們的考量只有一個考量我們是正當的執法我們是在取締"},{"start":14915.158,"end":14931.283,"text":"這個越界的這個快艇他的山巫船舶他是一個違法的行為所以另外其實你剛剛的說明裡面也有齁其實我們跟對岸的海警也有協議也就是說當這些山巫船他可能出現在我們的海域的時候"},{"start":14931.903,"end":14932.584,"text":"我也要跟委員說明一下"},{"start":14950.981,"end":14970.193,"text":"外界有很多的報導我們在這個整個的過程當中都沒有跟對岸的海巡聯絡我們在這個過程當中一直跟我們原來協同執法的單位一直都有保持聯繫同時查證這些船員的名字、機資然後請問這個船的狀況"},{"start":14972.614,"end":14996.641,"text":"然後我們現在救援的狀況我們一直在告訴對方因為這是我們過去一貫的做法所以這個請指中心他同時您在指揮這個要去取締、要去驅逐或是要是登船去檢查的時候我們也在通知對岸的這個海警嗎?我們當地的海巡隊的隊長親自通知對方我們現在的進度我們現在作用什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":14998.061,"end":15013.227,"text":"那麼一度我們在沒有找到第4位的時候對方曾經要求我們要派直升機過來加入救援我們可以派直升機過來加入救援他們希望能夠要求派直升機過來救援但是我們就在那個當下3點50分"},{"start":15015.288,"end":15033.765,"text":"當然這是假設啦,如果這是有必要的話我們也會派對不對?對,他們會派來,但是我們就在那個當下3點50分的時候,我們找到第4位的這個溺水者,我們立刻就送醫在這個第一時間我們就通知對岸,我們已經找到這4位這個溺水的人"},{"start":15035.447,"end":15056.198,"text":"所以我想我這樣子來說明一下這個事件跟我們兩岸的這個我們海巡署跟對方的海警的目標跟我們目前在執法的對象尺度其實是一樣的只是說發生在我們的海域是由我們來執行如果發生在他們的海域就算是我們的漁船有相關的狀況也會由他們來執行這是沒有錯的對不對"},{"start":15058.72,"end":15059.04,"text":"海洋執法支隊"},{"start":15077.003,"end":15081.904,"text":"我從你的回應我可以知道雙方的溝通是順暢的隨時可以共同來做這個我們也希望不要因為這一件事情但是今天會在這邊那麼敏感的原因是因為有這個事件之後"},{"start":15106.71,"end":15126.672,"text":"造成可能對方最近海警也增加了甚至他的海監船也增加了甚至他的盾位也增加了就是有點升高這些緊張的局勢但是我們在面對他們升高緊張的局勢的同時我們一定要給我們海巡人員最大的依靠我們一定要給海巡人員最大的後盾"},{"start":15127.913,"end":15154.212,"text":"在這裡要堅持對於取締非法的這個行動要力挺我們海巡人員這是我們必須要去做的事情但是這個過程裡面來那個請署長先請回我想要邀請這個海委會主委以及陸委會主委一起上台有一個在網路上看到你們的對話請兩位主委謝謝我們先請兩位一起上先請管主委"},{"start":15157.677,"end":15169.265,"text":"邱主委抱歉你先在旁邊先聽一下齁我看到這個對話齁這個對話的內容其實非常的惡意那我想要把這一份這個對話內容先給管主委主委我請問你齁你在對話裡面說中國兩個漁民該死"},{"start":15186.287,"end":15190.136,"text":"越借不撞他們的船,他們會越來越囂張,請問這是你嗎?不可能,這絕對不是我會講的話。你賴的圖案是這樣嗎?"},{"start":15194.875,"end":15223.389,"text":"不是 這已經是應該我很年輕的時候了年輕的時候跟中國兩個移民沒有關係吧所以這是一個我認為這是認知作戰的一部分這整件事情發生以來一直把我沒有講的話塞進來我的嘴巴然後把我建構成好像一個妖魔鬼怪一樣冷血 是不是就像我今天有講的連一個三大暴之一的國內的大暴的社論都可以說"},{"start":15224.509,"end":15225.189,"text":"這次我自己就感同身受"},{"start":15252.179,"end":15268.479,"text":"完整會議第一個你力挺和尋曙不要用撞船這個報告我給你肯定之外那目前所有的這一個包含認知作戰把你塑造成希望把你塑造成中國漁民該死這種"},{"start":15269.801,"end":15272.442,"text":"我們一路以來我一方面支持跟堅持捍衛我們海巡議法行政的執法之外"},{"start":15291.646,"end":15319.755,"text":"對於家屬的撫慰對於亡者的安寧我是盡所有的力量我們舉辦法會我們安置靈堂我們的同仁去拜飯持續到今天完全沒有停聚好謝謝管委員對不起管主委那我這樣請這個陸委會邱主委在管主委你請回座面對海委會他現在站在第一線海巡署站在第一線"},{"start":15320.555,"end":15346.468,"text":"面對對岸或者是這種認知作戰要拉高兩岸的緊張程度面對這種認知作戰要讓外界認為台灣主戰要讓外界認為台灣的海委會主委很殘忍對於我們漁民越界他們怎麼樣那對於這種認知作戰我想陸委會是不是也應該跟相關的單位做一些比較全面性的討論"},{"start":15348.289,"end":15365.186,"text":"片面的去改變目前今夏海域的執法狀況的是誰?台灣的陸委會到底對這件事情的態度我們希望怎麼樣維持和平我們的這個取締的方式我們是和平的取締但是發生了意外我們還是要力挺我們海巡人員的這些說明"},{"start":15367.868,"end":15384.885,"text":"確實,感謝委員的質詢我大概有三個面向我想長期以來中國對我們的認知作戰我想不是只有在這個領域所有領域基本上都有在做認知作戰我想這個報紙或者是我們國人也大概都相當的了解第二個,我們必須要感謝今天這樣的一個質詢裡面"},{"start":15387.387,"end":15408.434,"text":"我們所有的朝野的立委都支持挺這個海巡署不過剛剛您所提到的這個認知作戰我想在這裡也跟各位委員跟所有的媒體希望大家小心因為國台辦他在第二天的記者會裡面他就用了所謂這是惡意撞船事件"},{"start":15411.348,"end":15413.97,"text":"海巡署暴力執法要求賠償"},{"start":15429.4,"end":15455.86,"text":"一再的敘明說檢察官也用證人的身份對兩人製作兩份的詢問筆錄並且命他拒絕該兩人均表示對海巡隊的執法程序沒有意見我想在檢察官還在調查的過程中我希望國人不要對海巡署可以過度的苛責這種執法的過程確實很難避免一些所謂的意外的發生更何況我想"},{"start":15459.107,"end":15485.59,"text":"郭台鑌大概先前的記者會已經在做鋪陳他後續的這些認識作戰了所以這也是我們國人如果真的大家要挺海巡署我們真的在用語上可能稍微斟酌一下是我想謝謝主委這個也關係到後續的談判的相關的所有的要件那前提我剛剛也很高興聽到周署長那也很高興我們朝野共同來這個挺這個我們所謂海巡"},{"start":15486.391,"end":15510.14,"text":"那另外也就是我們海巡其實跟對岸都在打擊這一個三無船我們實在沒有必要去拉高這個緊張我們也都主張和平而且我們在執法的過程也都主張和平所以說在拉高緊張的人是誰在破壞和平現狀以及拉高緊張以及偵派這些海巡偵派這些海警"},{"start":15510.52,"end":15511.04,"text":"賴玉珍委員"},{"start":15543.34,"end":15544.661,"text":"海洋委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":15566.665,"end":15584.746,"text":"首先就是專案報告我看了目前已經交由警調處理執法遇到的程序還有相關的細節我們都尊重司法的調查但是我想要請教主委對於這件事情的看法是什麼"},{"start":15586.043,"end":15611.814,"text":"這是海巡依法行政執法我們絕對沒有過失在這個過程之中發生的這個不幸的事件那麼我們本於大公無私我們把所有的資料都交給檢察官讓他們不偏不倚的來還原真相但是在這個過程之中海巡的執法、依法行政難免在登檢的過程當中會有一個持續的碰觸的過程"},{"start":15612.794,"end":15633.752,"text":"但是我們知道這一艘船本身的條件的問題以及這一艘船他這個操船的人的身上身份的問題都在在的顯示說我們真的是在這個時候我們再把這些事情說起來是不說出來是不得已可是一定要說這是一艘三無船"},{"start":15634.292,"end":15637.654,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":15662.526,"end":15663.227,"text":"既然是這樣金門距離歐盟的最近的地方"},{"start":15680.719,"end":15691.168,"text":"兩千三百一十米,意味著兩邊的近線至水層高度是重疊的,也就是說這樣的狀況未來還是有可能會發生。再來我國出日號的遊艇,"},{"start":15698.813,"end":15725.342,"text":"被中國水警登船的臨檢這件事情意味著就是衝突升級了不然他們為什麼還要那麼敏感的時候特別來到我們的船上做臨檢想要請問海巡署的一旦類似的衝突再度發生海委會有何應對策略我們如何確保台灣的移民的安全"},{"start":15726.711,"end":15744.284,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟廈門的距離雖然很近但是禁縣制水域是從1992年以來雙方執法一個很重要的一旬所以不是因為說兩邊很近一定就會不斷的發生類案"},{"start":15745.405,"end":15770.239,"text":"這是第一點第二點這樣的一個執法的過程我們的執法其實我也三令五申我特別請艦隊分署要告訴我們的同仁落實所有的勤務我們也應該有精進的作為我們的執法一定要最優先是顧及自己跟他船的安全這個是我們執法所必須的而我們的海巡也都謹守這樣的一個執法應該要有的態度來執法"},{"start":15772.72,"end":15798.641,"text":"那這次發生意外是一個非常個別的單一的事件我們未來會盡一切的努力會盡一切的努力的精進作為來避免這樣的案件再度發生我們不會看到說這樣的事件要不斷的發生事實上也不是是但是我們遇到中國的海警的措施是什麼會去距離嗎還是說我們會主動開火嗎"},{"start":15804.059,"end":15828.644,"text":"委員絕對不可能是主動開火的這一切的SOP都一樣在沒有進入禁限制水域的時候我們有未進入禁限制水域時候我們的應處那麼如果是進入限制水域這個其實也是在非常緊張的時候才會發生的一種政治氛圍之下的作為"},{"start":15830.665,"end":15844.133,"text":"海警船進入禁止水域目前為止即使是這一次也都還完全沒有那進入禁止水域不是海警船而是其他的公務船舶所以其實兩岸我們都很希望能夠維持"},{"start":15845.774,"end":15860.126,"text":"我們兩岸在海域上面我們既是有協同執法我們又是有救生救難上面的聯合的救生救難這個善的橋樑是存在的我們很希望能夠讓這件事情趕快落幕在人道的抚慰上面我們趕快能夠落實跟完成我們是有非常非常大的誠意我們很希望能夠趕快恢復今夏海域"},{"start":15873.217,"end":15875.839,"text":"我們希望能夠趕快趕快讓這個事情不要再被綁在很多的政治的考量之中那個是沒有必要的"},{"start":15898.377,"end":15906.442,"text":"能夠擱置政治還原到人道的撫慰才是我們最衷心最大的期待也是最大的呼籲"},{"start":15909.182,"end":15922.51,"text":"這件事情海委會還有陸委會知道嗎菲律賓的在海外的南海的衝突我認為就是我們遇到問題就是解決問題而且不是在喊口號在說明大陸就像我們家的隔壁鄰居的壞鄰居所以我們也要想辦法說如何去解決他不然最後"},{"start":15936.119,"end":15944.066,"text":"最可憐的還是我們的民眾菲律賓他們也可以在最近半年跟美國展開的聯合軍事的演習我們目前的衝突情勢已經升級了我們既然還要採那麼強硬的立場我們有做好跟他們應來的準備嗎?"},{"start":15960.875,"end":15983.292,"text":"報告委員我們沒有採所謂強硬的立場我們絕對是堅持執法的過程當中我們是不勝高政治衝突的這從來我們不挑釁不勝高政治衝突從頭到尾過去到現在到未來都是我們唯一的態度這樣我們有機會就是說找美國跟我們是三天一直連回巡邏嗎"},{"start":15985.545,"end":16009.45,"text":"跟委員報告臺美的海巡彼此之間我們有合作的MOU但是合作的MOU的內容它分成很多的項目至於說我們有一些聯合的合作的項目因為本於外交上面的考量恐怕我們是不便在這裡做公開的說明跟報告"},{"start":16009.89,"end":16019.713,"text":"我相信就是臺灣的民眾不會在乎剛才大家就是很多的委員在問的就是說專報開的什麼名字我們全國的人民在乎的就是情勢升級會不會影響我們的生活還有甚至到說兩岸開戰因為有念過歷史的人都知道很多戰爭都是因為著火"},{"start":16043.219,"end":16056.263,"text":"這個才是我們台灣的人民的關心而不是就是有意義的就是鑽牛九尖一直在講一些的問題或者名稱所以最後就是我們金門的民眾每次就是要兩岸衝突"},{"start":16057.583,"end":16064.515,"text":"他們都是像海嘯一樣排第一名所以我們相信臺灣沒有人包括這位就是希望這樣子的衝突"},{"start":16069.208,"end":16095.064,"text":"大家就是渴望和平就是穩定生活的環境因為在我就想問委員的重點就是說在行政部門如何平衡積極捍衛領土與海城的權利同時確保金門甚至我們所有台灣人民不必要的就是害怕就是打戰擔憂的恐慌"},{"start":16096.935,"end":16097.155,"text":"國防部委員"},{"start":16119.633,"end":16147.229,"text":"所以說因為我看到就是說就是在講的都是這些問題所以我是希望就是說我們因為告訴的時間還有短暫的因素所以問的問題都是用陳述的我希望就是說未來本署就是可以就是將於就是精進還有就是加強的訓練所以關於就是精進加強的訓練的"},{"start":16148.87,"end":16165.577,"text":"提出幾個點希望就是我們說第一個就是海巡力還有對兩岸的關係的影響力還有對人民的福祉影響力的素面可以給我們一份嗎?因為都是用講的我覺得是不夠詳細我們的經營作為會給委員一個報告還有就是說關於就是說溝通的機制"},{"start":16179.098,"end":16198.269,"text":"請問我們這次的對於兩岸溝通的管道是什麼?有哪一些官方單位參與這次的溝通?我先跟委員報告,其實兩岸本來30幾年來就有基本的溝通跟協商的機制只是對方要不要用而已"},{"start":16200.665,"end":16223.372,"text":"但是正是對方可能礙於政治上的一些框架或考量但是現實上涉及到人民權利義務的這個事項他們最後還是會或是說我們雙方都會找到一個適當的方式去那以過去這幾年來講大陸人民在台灣發生各種的意外事故的"},{"start":16224.252,"end":16224.613,"text":"沒有政治之間的溝通管道"},{"start":16242.713,"end":16263.422,"text":"對 溝通管道我剛剛不是講了嗎溝通管道一直都有30幾年來雙方簽了很多的協議也有很多的溝通管道的機制不是相反就是兩邊政治溝通的管道就是通過單位各個單位基本上政治的議題的溝通縱使是所以才會拉成說已經半個月了到現在還沒有溝通完整"},{"start":16267.764,"end":16279.854,"text":"要分兩件事你剛問的是第一個政治的溝通基本上這件事情是沒有政治的問題因為它就存在一個個案執行的問題它就存在一個執法個案的問題過去發生過了很多的案例所以如果這樣做的話我們希望就是要有效的溝通希望有效的溝通"},{"start":16292.345,"end":16295.247,"text":"我們會盡盡一切的作為做最大的努力讓未來避免再度發生這些案件"},{"start":16319.898,"end":16326.402,"text":"但是這一次的案件委員您也知道對方船舶的狀態我想今天已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":16344.148,"end":16344.809,"text":"海巡署州署長"},{"start":16358.337,"end":16382.802,"text":"市長好,市長我們都針對議題今天我看了很多的同仁大家都執行的爭議就是我們的珊瑚船舶的問題那整個珊瑚船舶其實我們都知道它是越線然後整個以我們的常理來判斷一個撞船跟擦撞"},{"start":16383.522,"end":16383.802,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":16403.529,"end":16430.966,"text":"只是一個那個漆有漆的那個痕跡那整個事情都是一個很單純那現在我看到我們今天的同仁都變成有點政治化所以在整個過程我也希望透過影片讓我們社會大眾還有我們的媒體我們的先進大家來知道整個事件的來龍去脈因為為什麼我會找署長上來因為你是最前線嘛"},{"start":16431.846,"end":16459.857,"text":"當初你是最清楚所以我也希望說這個事件也讓全國的民眾大家來知道說為什麼這個事件的發生整個我們的包含我們的後續的救援大家都是盡心盡力啊也沒有說我們的海星都是棲之不顧啊也沒有啊所以說很單純的一個事件我希望我們各位同仁大家都是把它不要太過政治化"},{"start":16460.417,"end":16463.178,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":16488.428,"end":16492.373,"text":"那我現在我也透過我的影片讓大家知道好不好來雅文"},{"start":16584.994,"end":16596.396,"text":"好的我透過這個影片給我們各位媒體大家來做參考其實海型單位真的非常的辛苦所以你看一個"},{"start":16597.882,"end":16623.86,"text":"三股船舶第一他們的船隻本身就有問題這是一個非法的船隻那又越過我們的中線就比如說我們已經超線過來然後我們的基於我們的維護我們的國家主權在執行所以我們要體諒到我們的海巡署我們的同仁大家的辛苦"},{"start":16624.6,"end":16652.864,"text":"所以今天我們就針對這個問題我也請海巡署署長來將整個來做說明因為我們也基於說偵查檢調偵查不公開偵查不公開的情形我們還是要知道說檢調基於偵查不公開我們的署長也是必以無奈不能講太多但是起碼可以公開的由署長來跟社會大眾來做說明好不好"},{"start":16653.885,"end":16672.826,"text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會說明那我想剛剛透過艦隊分屬這個影片大家可以了解那個就是我們平常如果要登檢那就是我們平常在做的事情那往往在這個過程當中受傷的是我們的同仁"},{"start":16673.467,"end":16694.768,"text":"我們的風險比他們還大各位我不知道剛剛有沒有看到他們的漁船刻意地從兩旋戳出這個鋼管而且那個漁船都有做好的洞他要看到我們海巡來的時候他把他所有的鋼管戳出去讓這個船要跟我們我們的船要接近的時候"},{"start":16695.549,"end":16724.174,"text":"你登不上他的船,為什麼?他有伸出那個鋼管先把我們撞破他有一段距離,剛剛各位可以看得出來最明顯的一個... 您想跟你請張偉要說明一下這個影片是你們這一次的影片嗎?不是,我特別說明這次的撞船影片嗎?對,請你說明一下好不好?我們剛剛特別講的就是我們在登檢的過程中,我們過去登檢的經驗當中就是現在我們剛剛影片所播的一個狀況另外就是我們"},{"start":16725.174,"end":16743.494,"text":"我講個最明顯的案例就今年的這個中秋節在我們台北港外大概10到12海里左右那麼陸方的一艘漁船也是在這邊滅戒捕魚在我們的領海之內那我們的海巡艇也是接到"},{"start":16744.235,"end":16772.992,"text":"我們的命令之後過去驅離但他完全不接受驅離就一直對著我們來做碰撞那這個碰撞過程我們整個海巡艇188、10088這個編號我還記得因為那天是中秋節那天我正好也是在署裡面整個的過程我們的處理也是那天我們的同仁在這個接近的過程當中是非常的危險"},{"start":16773.812,"end":16786.68,"text":"那像這樣子的案例路芳也都是非常的能夠遵照我們過往處理的經驗他也是透由律師然後來跟我們來談賠償因為他違法在先"},{"start":16790.602,"end":16804.167,"text":"他也同意對於我們的修費對於我們的這些東西都能夠有賠償我要特別舉這個案例就是說我們兩岸過去在這樣子的一個案例當中是很多很多的案例"},{"start":16805.047,"end":16823.87,"text":"我們之間有一個執法的默契我們在各個事項或者事證擬清之後雙方都會做出應有的處置我們一直都是本著這個原則所以我要一再的強調我們跟對方的海巡也好"},{"start":16824.571,"end":16838.864,"text":"海洋執法支隊也好我們都一直保持有這樣子的一個默契那特別是在金門海域的執法我特別跟各位報告那去年一年的協同執法的頻率就高達49次"},{"start":16841.086,"end":16864.824,"text":"這裏面驅離我們是居多的那他們的扣留是居多的他在他的海域發現山屋傳播之後他就立刻扣留那其實我這邊都有數據因為他每次雙方都會做一個報告這次我們協同執法我扣留了幾艘船我取締了些什麼東西我把一些漁網給重新給他"},{"start":16866.005,"end":16866.586,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":16884.98,"end":16913.157,"text":"在航道上這些非法的這些活動或者布網或者是放這些蟹籠這些東西都是不被允許的不僅僅是我們海巡要做這些工作他地方的執法支隊也在做這些事情我們的金門縣政府也委託他也有專門的船隻出去收這些漁網或什麼那他在執行的時候也都會請海巡來配合"},{"start":16913.959,"end":16916.07,"text":"所以在這樣子一個執法的氛圍之下"},{"start":16917.335,"end":16946.258,"text":"我們是希望能夠保持一個好的一個漁場的環境讓雙方的漁民都能夠合法的在這邊進行他的捕撈作業我想這是我們一直以來跟對方一直保有的一個互動的一個方式那這是我要特別先說明的那這一次的三無船舶在進入到我方的禁縣制水域所謂禁縣制水域就是它已經進入到我們的領水"},{"start":16948.451,"end":16970.563,"text":"進入到這邊之後我們的海巡的隊員很明顯的就可以看出來因為他沒有船名因為我們海巡的同仁在這方面的執法已經有幾十年的經驗他第一時間就可以判定他是一個無船名就是三無的船舶所以他馬上就廣播驅離警告我們一開始的動作還是希望他能夠儘速離開"},{"start":16972.364,"end":16987.159,"text":"但是後續它產生一些高速脫離的現象我們才會採取後續這樣子準備登檢的一個動作那在這個準備登檢的過程當中就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生的那種"},{"start":16987.679,"end":16990.34,"text":"這次檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後請這些相關的單位來做查驗的時候"},{"start":17009.968,"end":17037.288,"text":"明顯的有兩方擦創各流油漆的因為如果我們擦創到它它的油漆會到我們的船體上我們的油漆會到它的船體上而且我們這都已經送到臺北刑事警察局已經幫我們都驗都已經查驗完畢了那這個地方明顯的有兩個油漆互擦的一個這個擦創的一個地方"},{"start":17038.55,"end":17039.414,"text":"據我所知當然檢調為準"},{"start":17042.418,"end":17069.932,"text":"有兩處就是他們的左船尾跟我們的右船首那這些都是在調查的過程當中這些整個的事件的過程跟證物跟所有的我們開驗的結果這些資料我們都請相關的公證單位來做第三方的公證那這個公證可能要由檢調他去請我們不能請因為我們是當事人"},{"start":17070.792,"end":17087.591,"text":"我們是一個假方跟一個乙方所以今天有一位委員問到說為什麼是海巡署的副署長在負責來談論這件事情因為我們是假方他們是乙方我們是當事人我們是當事人我們必須"},{"start":17088.592,"end":17088.632,"text":"好的"},{"start":17112.105,"end":17123.722,"text":"謝謝我們的海巡署我們的署長我們各位媒體聽到我們海巡署的署長所描述整個過程中應該我們現在都要相信我們的檢方檢調的調查"},{"start":17126.306,"end":17139.513,"text":"整個調查出來我們再來做評論應該這樣是比較合理那也謝謝我們的召委謝謝我們同仁感謝各位謝謝吳啓明召委的質詢也謝謝署長的回應繼續我們請陳雪生委員質詢好謝謝我們美麗的召委辛苦了"},{"start":17155.02,"end":17158.842,"text":"是不是請我們海委會?好,也請管主委。主委、國安。您當了4任的委員吧?立法委員。是。那我們也是老同事。邱太三主委跟我從國道代表到現在30年了。"},{"start":17180.629,"end":17206.405,"text":"我們可以說都是老同事了所以我不忍在這個地方來苛責您我只是滿遺憾的是早上我們內政委員會高精召集員用撞船、翻船的字眼引起海委會那麼強烈的一個反擊撞船不見得是錯的"},{"start":17208.477,"end":17233.497,"text":"不見得錯了,也可能是對的啊那今天在立法院提出這樣的說明報告我們海委會可以據理說明嘛這個事件的本身大家很清楚嘛就是一個警匪的一個追逐嘛,是不是很清楚啊,不要說剛才的影片我們你看以前楊元明組長是不是,帶了槍"},{"start":17237.509,"end":17265.458,"text":"警匪的騙子然後海巡我從當縣長一直到現在我們對海巡的弟兄說真的非常的好我在前天跟主委電話的過程裡面我說我們縣長、議長、立委對你們海巡、岸巡基本上應該非常的好你們到了地方去看看縣長嘛"},{"start":17266.957,"end":17285.292,"text":"組長有沒有看過縣長、看過議長?人家都沒有啊各位委員報告我去馬祖的時候因為時間很短促而我們單位非常的多排完了這些單位以後確實還不及來拜會縣長不用拜會,縣長、議長也會去看你們嘛"},{"start":17286.543,"end":17288.044,"text":"各位,剛才已經花了很多的時間說明了,影片也放過了"},{"start":17308.573,"end":17312.237,"text":"因為對中國來講這樣的定義整體下來是一個惡性的海巡的艦艇撞擊大陸漁船然後導致翻覆跟死亡的一個惡性的殘暴的執法型"},{"start":17325.831,"end":17328.352,"text":"國台辦、福建省台辦、福州市台辦跟我密集電話都在通話"},{"start":17355.697,"end":17364.615,"text":"也就是說這件事情怎麼散了我告訴你一件事你看過公雞跟蚱蜢在談判嗎?公雞跟蚱蜢談判你有沒有看過?"},{"start":17369.141,"end":17369.981,"text":"我們常常也在談判過"},{"start":17395.575,"end":17395.755,"text":"老媽早上"},{"start":17422.017,"end":17442.792,"text":"小匯委員、蘇小匯委員私底下跟我聊天,他去過金門去了回來,他曉得金門馬祖的民眾好委屈喔!我的委屈你知道嗎?你不要以為你委屈欸!署長委屈啊!邱太三主委委屈啊!我的委屈你知道嗎?委員"},{"start":17445.126,"end":17448.811,"text":"報告委員．就是大象跟螞蟻在談戀愛嘛如果我們內部跟委員報告"},{"start":17453.78,"end":17474.138,"text":"我們的同仁從談判桌上回來也說了他們的心聲當他們在談判桌上的時候看到內部對我的攻擊對事件的誤解跟對事件的扭曲變成談判桌上對方拿出來作為談判的材料的時候他們也覺得心傷"},{"start":17476.24,"end":17496.434,"text":"我了然於胸如果我們全國能夠一致對外呼籲中國能夠擱置正義然後能夠回歸人道這件事情的力量會往哪一邊更有力量就會招攬如果都是完全不一樣主任委員我告訴你面對的就是武力面對的就是武力"},{"start":17502.574,"end":17516.358,"text":"我看你海巡你有20條還是有30條它的白船可以出動300條我所以在國防委員會質詢的時候我告訴這些中將上將啊你們哪一個人看過萬箭齊發你們看過嗎你們看過那個幾發我們認為這個世界是有公理跟正義的世界我們面對的是2300萬人民的力量跟公理與正義今天我們世界上有公民正義的話是連加薩"},{"start":17529.961,"end":17531.062,"text":"今天法律的事情歸法律"},{"start":17557.984,"end":17562.286,"text":"我們人道的方案充滿了我們對家屬撫慰的真誠委員您也知道"},{"start":17578.894,"end":17579.134,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":17601.756,"end":17602.897,"text":"我認為是高度的不均衡"},{"start":17620.277,"end":17632.302,"text":"如果我們的民意能夠展現這樣高度的團結來呼籲中國趕快放棄政治然後能夠趕快回歸人道的話今天或許就不會拖這麼久"},{"start":17636.343,"end":17650.637,"text":"可是我們必須堅持的問題為什麼到現在我沒辦法去就全案做道歉我們很願意就我們應該要給予家屬就因為沒有錄影帶的部分我們讓他堅持我說主委這個事情要善了趕快處理"},{"start":17655.649,"end":17681.141,"text":"我們就是秉持這樣的善意一路下來其實委員們都幫忙很多其實委員們都幫忙很多你們不需要去回答問題嘛有底下的先去打嘛打了以後再說嘛是不是你現在把事情講到這個地步你們現在海軍出去有看到桑文的船嗎?"},{"start":17682.759,"end":17686.46,"text":"一艘都不見了還看到船嗎全部躲起來了"},{"start":17689.4,"end":17712.031,"text":"如果中國能夠在海洋的管理海洋秩序的管理上面其實這是雙方可以共同努力來維護我們的兩岸協同的執法長期以來有共同相守的相同的價值跟相同執法的規則"},{"start":17716.184,"end":17727.798,"text":"執法自對你們底下檯面下是有聯繫的啊為什麼都沒有越界呢都沒有越過禁限制海域我們海巡有沒有越過他們的船也沒越過啊為什麼"},{"start":17728.962,"end":17758.201,"text":"所以這一次把這樣的一個單獨的個案執法的事件升高到這樣的政治的連結我們真的是不樂見我們也覺得我們也認為應該要呼籲不要用這樣的政治的連結來處理他們也在抓不是我們在抓他們也抓那我是說他們的船越過界了越過界了當然我們去抓在追逐的過程在追逐的過程碰到事情了現在"},{"start":17759.226,"end":17785.913,"text":"他在藉著這個事故,所以就散了其實發生過,就是個案處理,但是這一次升高為政治是一切問題的根源我跟你講話,我覺得你還可以再低調一點我的勸,因為我也很忍耐,我也很委屈我希望管主委你也忍耐一點,你該委屈也委屈一點"},{"start":17787.338,"end":17815.965,"text":"今天美國的航空母艦不會五艘同時出現在金門的海域不可能的同時出現在馬祖的海域也不可能的啦我們水還太淺我們沒有那樣的意思所以如果說正面要交戰的話美國也不允許你開任何一槍一砲包括這一次整個過程以來都沒有挑釁沒有升高政治國防部長夏令開我太清楚了我在馬祖我太清楚了所以我希望就是說"},{"start":17816.966,"end":17817.312,"text":"這件事情"},{"start":17822.537,"end":17843.891,"text":"委員,從發生到現在所有的專訪我全部都婉拒唯一就是到立法院來被堵麥的時候我才有發言而這些發言都是回應媒體的問題的時候所做的發言委員,發言的時候回答問題我們只是必須要捍衛海巡執法的正當性而所為"},{"start":17851.075,"end":17872.503,"text":"我們時間到,所以要請謝謝委員好不好,忍受忍耐,盡量忍耐委員我想我們都密切保持你們有點管道跟大陸談判嘛,一直這樣下去嗎?你一直這樣下去,我們金門法組現在已經有點和平區了欸這樣搞的話,又變成前線了我們又變成前線了我們要出去打魚,我們靠海為生欸"},{"start":17873.163,"end":17898.385,"text":"所以我想委員大家也知道雙方大概就這件事情也持續的都不斷的在溝通但是因為有一些基本的堅持所以呢有已經合意的地方但是也還是不一致的地方所以繼續溝通啦你不要說我當論華記夏立言副主席跑去幫忙講個話黑的嗎你們把他唱紅有必要嗎是不是"},{"start":17900.116,"end":17924.87,"text":"董事長的家理言、副主席去能夠去把這些事情散了都是好事我們團結一致嘛好不好我想因為時間的關係我就不講了那個高金委員對我已經很不爽了好不好謝謝我們陳水深委員的支持你們兩位都是我的好朋友好同事我對你們沒有任何的惡意管吧我們在這邊那麼久了我跟你有沒有惡言相向過"},{"start":17926.428,"end":17927.149,"text":"有請我們高金昭偉委員諮詢"},{"start":17947.571,"end":17962.111,"text":"好,非常謝謝召委我還是接續一下陳雪生委員剛剛說的我不同意這個主委您剛剛的說法說忍耐也不同意這個邱泰山主委您說的忍耐今天如果我們有真相"},{"start":17963.012,"end":17966.875,"text":"我們不需要忍耐我們今天有日英日英我們不需要忍耐我們大可以在談判桌上把這些證據通通呈現出來然後讓對岸的人清楚知道不是我們撞死了兩條人命而是這當中的細節都非常的清楚而不是你們今天一昧的說把所有的資料"},{"start":17988.03,"end":17988.17,"text":"交給了檢調"},{"start":18018.03,"end":18018.23,"text":"有請署長"},{"start":18040.031,"end":18048.8,"text":"我們的署長呢他不僅僅是海巡署的署長他也是政務副主委而且也是我們的專業的海軍也是我們的這個國安系統你曾經待過這麼多的地方所以我相信您也不樂見"},{"start":18057.81,"end":18058.01,"text":"是的"},{"start":18085.02,"end":18102.706,"text":"好現在我要就幾個問題因為今天我聽到了幾個問題第一個問題為什麼會有那麼多的質疑就是第一個你們說海巡子事發過程非常短暫因為很忙救人沒有錄影收證"},{"start":18103.726,"end":18122.846,"text":"然後你們又再改口說陸船舌形巨減然後不慎翻覆造成了四個人落海到有人質疑了你們之後你們又改口講了海巡署的艦艇是在高速追逐的狀況之下它的船身多次的接觸剛剛你又說"},{"start":18125.649,"end":18140.229,"text":"其實兩岸之間的協同執法有非常多次而且你們是有密切聯繫而且我剛剛又聽到您剛剛說其實這件事情不是突發事件"},{"start":18141.05,"end":18167.398,"text":"您是初三的時候大年初三也就是2月12號的時候其實你們就已經發現這所謂的三五船所以也就是說剛剛您的回應讓我們清楚知道不是突然在海上突然出現而是接到了所有的訊息之後你們按照SOP的流程來做一些"},{"start":18169.799,"end":18197.177,"text":"你們應該準備的工作那現在我要問的第一個問題是依據海岸巡防激光海域執法作業的規範的第9條的規定我們的海巡人員執行職務的時候應該要依照規定穿著制服或者是出示證明文件並且要隨時照相、錄音、錄影或者是用其他收證的方式保全相關的事證"},{"start":18198.098,"end":18207.642,"text":"以為移送主管機關查處的依據除了這個之外也是要保護我們的海巡弟兄對吧第10條第2項你也規定應該要與被檢的船舶保持距離然後要以雷達監控同時全程錄影照相存證"},{"start":18222.727,"end":18248.52,"text":"並且要依照規定通報反映所以按照我們海岸巡防機關海域執法作業規範第9條第10條你們早就應該要準備這些東西了而不是對外的宣稱說你們沒有密入器你們沒有打開錄音的這個裝置你們並沒有全程錄影而且您剛剛還準備了一個很大的照片"},{"start":18249.48,"end":18253.184,"text":"這個人掉下去了海裡面你們有時間照相那就表示其實你們全程是有錄影的只是你們不願意拿出來所以你剛剛講很多次你們在做這些處理的時候其實是有碰撞"},{"start":18268.061,"end":18272.882,"text":"好 請署長您回答我的問題你們有沒有全程錄音錄影如果沒有的話就是造成這一次的那麼多的問題的產生你們要不要道歉當然已經道歉了你們要不要懲處相關的人員你們有沒有一些行政程序的報告簡單回答好 謝謝昭偉給我這個機會說明"},{"start":18294.167,"end":18306.837,"text":"第一個,出山報案的那艘船,我們不能確定它是不是三、五船舶,有可能是漁船,有可能是貨船,有可能是其他的船艇。好,謝謝署長您的回應,謝謝。我現在能不能再詢問您,您不能夠去確定它是不是三、五船舶,那麼你們應該會有通報記錄吧?是。"},{"start":18318.567,"end":18336.544,"text":"而且這個通報紀錄就我了解就我了解其實你們在記者會是有公布的你們公布的通聯時間是12點41分然後距離你們修正後公布的案發時間是下午1點10分足足相差了30分鐘"},{"start":18338.366,"end":18353.247,"text":"最關鍵的這些通聯記錄卻不公布您剛剛又說您沒有辦法清楚知道它是不是三網船隻所以我們現在與根本的證據都不清楚知道你怎麼可以回答我這個呢那有沒有錄音"},{"start":18354.108,"end":18381.777,"text":"不同時間,初三的報案是民眾打118跟我們報案好,那14號的呢?14號是我們的雷達監控有快速目標進入到我們的境線之處好,既然有了快速的這樣子的一個雷達訊息你們應該很清楚知道就開始有通報機制了吧?當然這些通報機制的錄音有沒有?都有能不能提供到我們委員會來?"},{"start":18383.357,"end":18388.78,"text":"有沒有交給檢調單位?那可不可以提供到我們的委員會來?我想這不是你能不能,這是我召委到時候會不會安排第二個問題,對不起,您的意思就是有錄音所以我很明確地說,你能不能明確地回答我有沒有錄音錄影?"},{"start":18409.927,"end":18433.323,"text":"你所謂的錄影 剛剛你講我們什麼救難什麼2月14號有沒有錄音錄影錄音有我們執管的這一部分的錄音全程從你們發現了這個所謂的三五船隻一直到落海你們如何救人 這個所有的錄音過程都有嗎"},{"start":18434.664,"end":18441.928,"text":"好 謝謝本席會待會做一個結論請你們提供給委員會第二個第二個第二個第二個我要問您的是為什麼你們不公佈完整的無線電通連接我們沒有不公佈因為這個已經交給檢調好交給檢調那沒關係"},{"start":18459.357,"end":18475.891,"text":"我會讓你們提供給我們委員會那第二個問題就是海岸巡防激光海運執法作業的規範第10條有要求要雷達監控海巡署有沒有掌握事件相關的船隻的雷達軌跡圖有或沒有"},{"start":18477.125,"end":18479.266,"text":"當我們去協商的時候有沒有提供這個錄音榜給對岸"},{"start":18504.638,"end":18519.723,"text":"為什麼不能提供?這個不就是很重要的證據之一嗎?當你們在談判的時候這不就是很重要的一個證據之一嗎?如果趙薇你講重要的證據之一,把這個雷達的整個過程"},{"start":18521.283,"end":18540.13,"text":"一公佈．給他們一看．他就知道當時的情形是怎麼樣那當然啊這就最好啦就要提起所有的問題啊不是嗎這個東西現在都是要有檢調來決定我不同意你的說法謝謝署長你的回應所以我要必須講的是今天很確定的是說有錄音還有雷達軌跡圖所以這兩個其實都有的"},{"start":18546.032,"end":18546.692,"text":"海軍司令部副參謀長詹副參謀長"},{"start":18579.466,"end":18603.612,"text":"謝謝 請把我的時間暫停一下好 請問一下自從海巡署強化了平時和戰時的轉換機制之後海巡署的禁案雷達情資是不是已經透過連線侵傳給海軍的連程戰係你們雙方其實是有互換情資 有沒有這個事情是的 我們跟海巡署之間有支援協定的簽署 有情資的分享有嗎是"},{"start":18604.272,"end":18630.921,"text":"好 我要再請問您兩岸因為這個金門撞船事件關係越來越緊張了這不僅僅只是海巡署的問題不僅僅是海委會的問題也不僅僅是陸委會的問題未來可能會關係到國防的問題所以請問海軍的連程戰係可不可以公佈你們所掌握的雷達軌跡圖然後跟我們的海巡單位的航軌"},{"start":18632.862,"end":18659.131,"text":"把他一起來公布是跟委員報告因為針對這一次的事件來講我們連城系統所掌控的目標並沒有包含到這麼小的目標那這個目標在我們連城系統掌握的目標的部分像這種近岸水域小型的目標的部分在我們連城系統是沒有把他掌握沒有不好意思喔前海軍的郡長他有指出你們以前有大城系統"},{"start":18660.491,"end":18682.619,"text":"這個大程系統也就是現在的連程戰系你們的連程戰系已經跟海巡近岸的雷達強制你們透過連線、勤船、海軍連程戰鬥系統了所以你不能告訴我說連這麼小的你們都看不到因為你們的訊息都已經互傳了"},{"start":18684.54,"end":18707.31,"text":"各位委員報告,我們跟海巡署之間的目標的監控的部分,我們是有責任的分屬,那就像委員所指的沒有沒有沒有,那如果是如你所講的話,你的意思是說你監測你的一個系統,然後海巡署監測一個系統,是這樣的意思嗎?那如果是這樣的意思的話,為什麼你們在媒體上公佈的時候,你們不去做一些澄清呢?"},{"start":18708.03,"end":18730.97,"text":"因為現在我所拿到的這個媒體上的公布是說你們跟海巡署已經形成了一個侵船系統所以侵船系統是有嗎?是有所以只要是海巡署搜尋到的所有的軌跡你們也都會有嗎?就連程系統的限制來講的話是連程系統上是沒有的"},{"start":18732.595,"end":18756.637,"text":"你講沒有沒關係我覺得國防部還有這個今天我們的所有的這個在場的官員的回應我們至少今天離清楚了兩件事情一有錄音二有錄影三我們的國防部其實對這件事情來說你們不能夠排除在外因為兩岸因為兩岸情勢慢慢的升高了之後其實它危急的"},{"start":18757.378,"end":18758.399,"text":"國防部也好"},{"start":18774.986,"end":18784.979,"text":"海巡署也好海委會也好我們的陸委會也好你們必須好好處理這樣的事情不然的話就是愧對2300萬台灣人民的安全謝謝"},{"start":18789.117,"end":18806.752,"text":"委員我還是要說明一下,剛剛我講有的錄音是我們的指管通信的錄音錄影是我們的雷達,您問我是有沒有雷達的累積圖,我說有另外您看到救難的那些畫面是我們的35頓艇,我們一共來了7艘艇"},{"start":18809.494,"end":18810.515,"text":"至於本席張磊未來會尋求什麼樣的資料我再提醒一下"},{"start":18825.874,"end":18849.817,"text":"因為你既然你要在這裡告訴我的話 我要提醒一下 我們立法院是有這個職權調閱所有的資料不要告訴我是國防機密 也不要告訴我已經交給檢調了 所以不提供給本委員會好不好 各位我們一定提供 謝謝到時候我到時候會邀請你們提供什麼資料 我會再告訴你們 非常清楚的告訴你們 我們一定配合"},{"start":18852.857,"end":18860.747,"text":"謝謝我們高金召委的諮詢按照我們召委的宣告現在我們就休息20分鐘用餐謝謝大家"},{"start":20337.566,"end":20353.365,"text":"現在我們繼續開會但是有一些官員還沒有回到位置上我們是不是等一下他們回到位置上以後我們才開始請問一下志強委員可以嗎好 謝謝是沈博恩委員 對不起可以嗎 等他們回座好 謝謝"},{"start":20379.462,"end":20390.789,"text":"好,我們現在兩位主委都到了,然後署長呢?對不起,沒看到你,好,不好意思謝謝,我們繼續開會,我們請沈博洋委員來質詢好,那謝謝主席,那請這個海委會的這個主委好,有請管主委"},{"start":20414.05,"end":20427.335,"text":"主委好因為時間有限所以我就不要浪費太多時間因為今天早上大家已經花了非常多的時間想要釐清這整件事情但其實這整件事情對我們來說最重要的是中國的步步進逼"},{"start":20427.955,"end":20444.375,"text":"他是一個灰色地帶的作戰在這10年來講中國用類似的方式達到這樣的一個作戰已經多達到82次了所以這每一次的灰色領域的作戰對台灣都是一個主權的威脅那不知道主委對於反送中事件是否熟悉"},{"start":20447.59,"end":20471.462,"text":"反射中事件也是先由病調犯罪的一個方式然後再藉由修訂逃犯條例然後一直造成香港事件的爆發這是中國非常典型的手段所以今天在這個有限的時間因為非本委只有10分鐘我就只先把這樣的一個事實還有這樣的一個框架先釐清釐清之後我只問兩個問題就是我寫在上面的一個就是我們對未來的預判到底會是什麼樣子"},{"start":20472.262,"end":20478.235,"text":"以及我們對於過去的透明措施應該要怎樣才可以預防這樣的事情發生 抵擋中國的一個攻擊"},{"start":20480.011,"end":20501.342,"text":"好那第一件事情就是呢中國這整體的框架對於我們的攻擊呢一直以來都是法律跟輿論不斷的交錯大家可以看到在2月14號國台辦先定調我們的執法是粗暴跟危險然後到2月17號宣稱我們的這個水域不存在這件事情之所以重要是因為他要否定台灣執法的一個權利進而去擴張中國執法的權利"},{"start":20503.223,"end":20532.051,"text":"所以單單光是擴張執法權利這件事情就不是那麼簡單的說我們在取締快艇翻覆的一個事實而已而是中國想要藉由這樣的一個藉口去擴張在我們這邊的執法權利連我們的國防部長都說這個可能會建立一個新常態那2月18號是大家比較容易忽略的是王毅在受訪的時候呢定調了這是一個中國跟反對台獨那我想先問一下這個主委請問我們這件事情跟台獨有什麼關係"},{"start":20532.831,"end":20560.683,"text":"完全沒有關係報告委員這是一個單獨個別的執法事件那其實過去也曾經發生過那我們一定可以找到一個很方便很容易來好好處理的一個SOP因為我們其實是有經驗的而且兩岸的海事上面的工作過去長期是在救生救難也好協同執法也好在這一方面相當程度是有一個善的橋樑"},{"start":20562.043,"end":20578.539,"text":"謝謝主委所以他既然跟台獨沒有關係的話為什麼中國要這樣定調那就是因為中國想要藉由這樣做出一個政治上的操作因而在這個之後因為台獨的這個操作變得有點無力也造成了在2月20號大量的出現這個所謂的虛假消息我們看下一頁"},{"start":20579.46,"end":20597.506,"text":"就是剛剛我們在博弈委員的就已經有講過這個關於我們管委員的一個虛假對話想要製造這樣的一個輿論風向進而去定調一個法律的框架在下一頁所以現在我們在遇到的狀況是什麼呢就是大家今天一直在討論到底他是不是一個撞船事件他到底要不要使用這樣的名詞"},{"start":20598.226,"end":20624.62,"text":"在這邊告訴大家在2月27號之前中國根本就沒有用撞船這兩個字他是從國台辦開始定調這個叫214惡性撞船事件所以這跟我們的教育部怎麼規定撞這個字一點關係都沒有他就是中國想要製造一個新的名字跟新的法律框架讓我們在這個框架下面來討論這個案件所以從那個時候開始呢台灣竟然還有投書可以同步"},{"start":20625.2,"end":20626.141,"text":"我想問一下 幫我換下一位"},{"start":20654.11,"end":20675.335,"text":"當然可以看到在這邊在整個這個網路的這個聲量裡面我們主委應該也可以看到他整個214惡性撞船事件出現大量的文章跟大量的協同操作並藉由沖平社跟國台辦相關去定調這樣的一個字眼所以接下來我想問主委的事情就是幫我換下一位再下一位"},{"start":20676.809,"end":20701.704,"text":"如果我們今天這個事件的發生從他一開始操作輿論然後再去擴大他的執法的權利然後再一直想要讓我們這邊做承認跟道歉去承認這樣的一個新常態我認為這個在以往我們看過八十幾個案例之下已經到大概第五個階段了所以接下來想要請教主委因為這件事情還沒有結束那請問海洋會對這件事情的預判是什麼也就是接下來還會發生什麼事情"},{"start":20704.545,"end":20729.903,"text":"報告委員海巡署或海委會也好遇到這件事情處理到現在我們就是盡全力在溝通的部分能夠越來越趨近然後去找到共識這個過程其實是有很多的階段每一個階段對方的訴求我們沒有辦法達成共識的部分就一題一題的去解決"},{"start":20730.503,"end":20731.143,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":20755.034,"end":20758.758,"text":"我先簡單的問一句就是當時有想到他們會放這個所謂的假的line的截圖嗎?"},{"start":20772.527,"end":20790.574,"text":"其實我相當的震撼當然在這個LINE的截圖之前我已經就被誤解了很多例如說我請九屆的法務院是我沒有想到會操作到這種地方或者是中國台辦會讓我能寫都是意料之外的"},{"start":20790.894,"end":20819.057,"text":"所以這邊我想要提醒一點就是中國在這以往的八十幾個案例的操作常常出現這樣的情形除了造假的截圖之外他們也很常做一件事情譬如說假設這邊我們有相關營救到的人員一旦回到了中國之後呢他馬上就請他翻工並做成大量的短影片然後在網路上散播所以如果我們今天能夠預判這件事情發生的話那我們可以事先在我們把人放回去之前應該要讓國人知道中國可能的操作手法"},{"start":20819.717,"end":20824.22,"text":"所以這邊呢我只是 這邊就只是一個建議就是說接下來很有可能他們還有各式"},{"start":20839.771,"end":20860.96,"text":"除了這個我們知道海巡署這邊是非常的委屈啦但是還是要告訴大家讓國人知道我們處理這些事情的SOP可能是什麼因為接下來中國可能會有的動作他因為他的定調叫做惡性撞船事件而藉由我們台灣這些所謂把撞船事件提高到這個不管是在政府的層次跟媒體的層次之下"},{"start":20861.38,"end":20884.942,"text":"他接下來想要做的就是他要怎麼去定掉惡心以及他要怎麼去把排毒這件事情帶進來所以如果我們不能讓國人知道中國的操作手法的話後面他再丟出來任何的輿論我們可能就會節節敗退更不要講說他可能還會製造新的法律框架所以這是一個簡單的建議接下來因為只剩2分鐘所以我想換一下一個主題就是因為我們剛剛講的是對於未來的預判"},{"start":20885.783,"end":20906.372,"text":"我們現在需要比較知道的就是在過往的這個過程當中因為我聽到今天早上一直到剛剛下午之前大家都一直在提密錄器但是密錄器其實它攝影的範圍其實非常非常的小如果我們今天要知道整體的全局的話如果我們想要知道到底發生什麼事情的話密錄器顯然是不夠的嘛"},{"start":20907.012,"end":20930.288,"text":"所以我們在這邊整理了幾個各個國家在應對這種衝突的時候不同的手段那我這邊就不一一念我會把資料交給海委會再幫我換下一頁大家可以看到在中國的海警船跟其他的對峙的時候搜證的船隻是在第三台也就是它不是在這一台船上面做拍攝再換下一張然後以及像這個是雷射攻擊它也是在遠處做拍攝"},{"start":20932.534,"end":20947.125,"text":"像這一個非國的船隻跟中國的海警船在對峙的時候很明顯是由空拍的方式做拍攝也因此問題根本就一直不是在密錄器當我們把問題一直糾結在密錄器的時候其實又是掉入對方所設定的框架"},{"start":20947.705,"end":20962.311,"text":"我們需要知道的是在灰色領域作戰最好的方式菲律賓從2023年開始做的事情就是用第三隻第四隻的船隻或者無人機或者飛機去把這些畫面發下來及時的公佈給大眾"},{"start":20963.371,"end":20988.079,"text":"所以大家都可以知道說中國的不管是海警還是他的小男人他在怎麼去做這種灰色領域的步步驚逼那我知道所以其實呢我們光是說密錄器到底要多少什麼這已經是個假議題而是說我們如果要做到菲律賓去年做的這些事情的話我們所需要的預算應該要有多少需要的人力應該要有多少海巡這邊呢應該要針對這件事情做一個盤點"},{"start":20989.419,"end":20989.86,"text":"最後幾個短短的建議只剩10秒鐘"},{"start":21007.955,"end":21007.975,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":21026.902,"end":21052.509,"text":"好 謝謝沈伯陽委員的質詢也謝謝關委員在這邊要提醒一下沈伯陽委員抱歉您剛剛在質詢的時候有指控我說是配合對岸來這個排案我必須請您這個未來請您不要這樣子雖然雖然你沒有指名道姓是我但是呢因為我是召委這個案子是我排的所以你在影射到我所以我在這邊特別跟你提醒一下第二件事情我今天會用這個名詞"},{"start":21054.469,"end":21076.648,"text":"對不起,這是你個人的意思,所以請你在國會電場也尊重召委,好不好?然後第二件事情就是呢,我今天為什麼會用撞船事件,也不是我個人提出這個名詞。我認為是在2月22號海巡署的記者會還有檢察官都明確的說有碰撞這樣的事實,所以我引用,這個是一個客觀的現象。"},{"start":21078.55,"end":21082.053,"text":"主席有請管主委有請管主委 謝謝羅委員好"},{"start":21107.369,"end":21121.978,"text":"主委其實上午我聽了非常多的質詢在內政委員會待了很久那你不斷的強調為了維繫談判的氣氛保持善意所以很多談判的過程內容細節你都不對外透露對不對"},{"start":21123.204,"end":21138.565,"text":"我們一直都沒有透露我想我們我支持這一個做法我們一直都沒有透露但是今天在這裡的時候沒關係我跟你講你遇到國會質詢你必須有答詢權答詢的義務這一點沒有問題那我想請教你知道上午的時候王定宇臉書"},{"start":21140.107,"end":21154.571,"text":"報料對岸談判代表提出的要求就是臺灣海巡人員到中國接受訓問請問有無此事我沒有看到這樣的報導我們是不是請我們副署長來說明好不好時間暫停好我們時間暫停了後有請副署長委員好在溝通的過程當中陸方有曾經舉過這樣子"},{"start":21169.716,"end":21178.68,"text":"所以換言之這個訊息就是你們告訴王定宇委員的嗎既然已經證實有這個訊息那我想請問你委員這一次媒體有很多訊息被報導出去沒關係我要跟那個管委員說你今天來這裡報告你就該把這個事項在這裡報告"},{"start":21199.161,"end":21217.059,"text":"你透過 你們透過任何方式剛剛也被你們的人員證實是你們透露給王定宇那就違反剛剛你一直強調遇到你不想回答的問題就是說今天試射談判機敏你不便透露試射偵查不公開不便透露遇到王定宇就會轉彎啊"},{"start":21218.32,"end":21237.146,"text":"沒關係,你要試射談判的內容不公佈,要保持善意,我可以接受。我就問目前幾個大陸方面公開的要求,不是談判內容。國台辦發言公開要求,臺方盡快公佈事實真相。我今天一整天聽,你認為事實真相已經公佈了嗎?對不對?"},{"start":21238.356,"end":21242.842,"text":"交給檢方偵查嘛所以你到目前為止你也不認為你們公布的事實真相那我們今天在這裡幹什麼我們在這邊幹什麼我們要的不是事實真相嗎"},{"start":21256.258,"end":21274.913,"text":"委員你不用那麼快一直在想要設法第二個問你嚴懲相關責任人我想請問你嚴懲相關責任人也做不到嘛因為你認為海巡沒有執法過大嘛海巡沒有執法過大嘛你剛剛從早上到現在是不是認為海巡沒有執法過大連這個都無法回答"},{"start":21275.233,"end":21283.861,"text":"目前海巡署的基證顯示,海巡署並沒有過失,但是所有的一切都需要檢查官方會員徵簽。我們跟家屬的道歉,如果有所措施,報告委員,當事證的真相還沒有釐清的時候,我接下來問您"},{"start":21301.377,"end":21311.835,"text":"第一個顯然你只有針對錄影的部分會道歉希望你在談判秉持這一點你們也說過不會書面致歉也不會口頭道歉除了錄影之外你們說得到這一點嗎?"},{"start":21315.378,"end":21321.101,"text":"做得到?做不到?你到現在為止採的東西,你剛今天早上跟委員尋答,你就說沒有責任啊?好,我再請教你下一個問題,海巡人員非常辛苦,我們大家都在當他的後盾,你認同吧?"},{"start":21334.843,"end":21346.049,"text":"我們都要當海巡人員的後盾,對不對?謝謝您。要當海巡人員的後盾,要建構海巡人可以有安全、有尊嚴的執法環境,對不對?"},{"start":21346.963,"end":21366.56,"text":"我們盡全力要做到這一點好 謝謝你認同那我想請問你專業領導算不算是一個建構海巡的一個專研跟安全執法的一個項目領導當然領導是很重要需要卓越的領導我想請問你不算代理主委周梅武你的前一任海巡海委會主委是誰"},{"start":21368.683,"end":21374.505,"text":"李綜威主委的經歷是什麼?海軍中將、海巡署署長、海委會主委之前當過海軍部司令、海軍艦隊指揮官。你有任何海巡經驗嗎?"},{"start":21390.849,"end":21395.732,"text":"你有沒有任何海巡經驗在當這個主委之前?有沒有?有沒有?你沒有啦!你沒有啦!我跟您講海委會主委海巡署的上級主管不是讓你來這裡當實習生欸!今天待會我知道要講這個社會公平我應該跟你來公平一下那你知道聽過降帥無能累死三軍嗎?"},{"start":21419.565,"end":21424.909,"text":"無能包括專業吧!專業上的無能也是一種無能吧!你有聽過外行、領導、內行?來!沒關係我知道你當然沒辦法回答這句話齁!我要請教您齁!我跟你講我從頭到尾不怪您啦!我怪的是今天用你的陳建仁"},{"start":21443.081,"end":21443.621,"text":"這句話誰講的?這句話誰講的?"},{"start":21463.029,"end":21463.99,"text":"請問你,為什麼這次沒有密錄器?"},{"start":21490.752,"end":21493.096,"text":"為什麼專業的海巡署長出身的李仲威他跟你講的SOP就有密錄器你不專業的管碧玲當主委你就沒有密錄器"},{"start":21505.592,"end":21508.235,"text":"你不是說沒有嗎?現在又有了嗎?又要再變嗎?我問你現在有沒有嗎?只要有跟沒有啊你不要再跟我講你已經重複100遍而這艘艇裝不上攝影設備但是密錄器多大?密錄器是有的"},{"start":21525.512,"end":21526.875,"text":"有 交出來 有沒有交出來各位媒體朋友啊 各位我們所有議員同仁我今天很高興啊 管主委說有密錄器啊"},{"start":21537,"end":21543.022,"text":"所以從頭到尾說沒有錄影都是騙人的嗎?非常謝謝你啊手持式攝錄影機有沒有用?警察人員有密錄器海巡人員要不要用密錄器?很多正義法官判決前都先看密錄器密錄器可以保護自己非常重要這句話誰講的?"},{"start":21564.211,"end":21593.013,"text":"誰講的密錄器這件事情綠營的立委趙正宇在質詢李中威講的李中威特別強調都有密錄器而且是使用的密錄器不是像你吊在旁邊晾乾的密錄器然後跟你講手持搖晃無法用掛在身上會手持搖晃嗎密錄器你現在叫出密錄器來你說畫面不清楚我們可以接受啊你現在跟我講有密錄器你又跟我講密錄器沒有用因為用手持手持搖晃又沒有用"},{"start":21594.281,"end":21596.984,"text":"最後法院裁判不罰的原因是什麼你知道嗎?"},{"start":21620.273,"end":21623.959,"text":"因為兩次要求警方都拿不出密錄器的錄影"},{"start":21624.676,"end":21650.081,"text":"然後法院的判決是什麼?他認為今天你沒有秘錄器沒有辦法證實你執法的所謂的證據性所以像這種情況之下他也只能無奈的判沒有違法以這個個案來講秘錄器有沒有不是還原真相好啦好啦我告訴你上次這樣講你的報告還說要補充所有的秘錄器你不自己打點自己嗎秘錄器這麼不重要"},{"start":21651.661,"end":21653.603,"text":"沒關係你說這個也不重要我告訴你李宗威你要打臉立法院你要打臉我想請問你"},{"start":21661.873,"end":21684.51,"text":"2016年的管碧玲那時候縣執部在偵查的時候縣執部有一個環節沒有錄影請問您你怎麼評價縣執部的報告委員那次的質詢完全沒有談錄影的問題在臉書上談錄影的問題的時候是和質詢來來來你看2月7號2016年2016年的臉書我唸給你聽這一點說香話能力留下來有追搜證錄影資料執行執行暫停"},{"start":21691.744,"end":21697.548,"text":"追收證錄影資料,證實關鍵簽志願同意書根本沒錄影,正是國軍憲兵史上的大烏龍,該下台負責的要有自覺,真的不能拿基層當替死鬼。為什麼需要藐視國會罪?"},{"start":21717.844,"end":21730.977,"text":"因為就有這種官員曾有說瞎話啊說過的話通通不認啊我要跟各位講今天我們都支持海巡但是一個無能的一個主委一時累死海巡執法人員"},{"start":21732.076,"end":21752.864,"text":"密錄器錄影沒有落實這個SOP不要推給基層當替死鬼我們都是海巡人員的執法的後盾但是你沒有落實SOP造成海巡人員有理說不聽這就是2016年的管碧玲批評今天的管碧玲謝謝那是段章取義好 非常謝謝樂智強委員的質詢也謝謝管組委 謝謝我們繼續請賴世寶委員質詢 謝謝"},{"start":21764.752,"end":21771.7,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請陸委會的邱主委以及海洋委員管主委兩位長官好我們看到的"},{"start":21788.004,"end":21806.648,"text":"今天國防部人家他的標題就是跟我們召委列的題目一樣這只有你們兩大單位一個陸委會一個海巡署立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議專題報告還是什麼專題報告題目都沒有"},{"start":21812.711,"end":21835.936,"text":"沒有這個內容好歹有個標題吧標題這麼重要一個title這麼重要我覺得很奇怪啦齁特別兩位當過立委管主委又是也當了好幾屆嘛齁因為你在立法院的經驗我們都很清楚我在立法院多年都很清楚你對他這個報告案的title如果有意見你時間找到溝通啊"},{"start":21838.783,"end":21843.012,"text":"我請問要主委、要管主委你找我們招委溝通了沒有?"},{"start":21844.707,"end":21870.688,"text":"委員報告有關於這個部分確實是對張偉有失禮之處,我也特別的表達了,在這個部分應該受到指責,我也願意接受指責。好,謝謝啊!這個,那管主委就已經跟他道歉了嗎?啊,求主委你要不要也跟他道歉一下?你這個,這個藐視,藐視我們高軍署的張偉勒?好像,好像他是你下屬一樣,他是不是你下屬勒?怎麼會這樣子呢?"},{"start":21873.783,"end":21875.984,"text":"你不是無良...你不是什麼無孕良貧吶"},{"start":21896.596,"end":21897.516,"text":"我並沒有改他的題目我只是把題目沒有寫出來"},{"start":21925.325,"end":21954.04,"text":"那主要的原因那就是你不同意啊你不是不同意啦你是讓我不學他這個題目我們本來想要在今天口頭報告的時候或書面報告的時候我們來老實講我們都很清楚在立法院多年都知道面對召委的題目如果政務官不能同意的話兩個做法第一個去跟召委談對談了以後請召委改改到覺得欸?這樣會三年我做過召委好幾次啊我有列出題目"},{"start":21955.68,"end":21956.5,"text":"全國委員會主委、海洋委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":21965.967,"end":21985.368,"text":"有事好商量面對面好商量第二個題目不改但是內容呢他可以針對題目來做以說這個題目定的不好事實不是這樣子這個題目呢什麼什麼等等這個才是正軌兩位都當過立委啊怎麼會會犯這樣的錯我覺得"},{"start":21989.06,"end":22001.173,"text":"難道邱主委沒有覺得你這樣錯嗎?確實值得再商議那在這一點上我願意向召委表達歉意你也願意道歉喔?"},{"start":22002.17,"end":22003.071,"text":"最近有人在提一個事說你這個"},{"start":22022.708,"end":22052.237,"text":"你在立委其實我們大家都看你的表現是有沒有有用主委在這個事情之前也並沒有什麼太大的問題可是這個事情出來之後我就覺得邱主委一起來你喝夠水可以了再請邱主委謝謝這個事情到目前為止你不覺得兩岸的惡意螺旋上升嗎請邱主委先回答"},{"start":22053.1,"end":22054.742,"text":"對岸有惡意啊對岸有惡意啊當然我們要"},{"start":22070.544,"end":22087.159,"text":"報告委員我剛剛大概有跟幾個委員講過了其實兩岸發生這種意外事件呢過去大概有9次的協商的很快就解決了那我們的人民在大陸大概也有3次所以其實這個處理的機制過去都有經驗那我想這應該是問對岸"},{"start":22091.323,"end":22091.843,"text":"委員我看你這個稍微有一點過度的聯想"},{"start":22120.315,"end":22124.506,"text":"我跟委員提一下差異今天是在金下水域是兩岸人民的漁場"},{"start":22126.323,"end":22126.963,"text":"其實我們大家都很清楚"},{"start":22154.909,"end":22178.282,"text":"大家都知道這個事情廣大型我們被菲律賓撞船了我們就要求幾個嘛這個大陸要的就跟我們一樣委員那個恐怕不一樣喔這個可能要憑憑那歷史的相關調查然後好好看因為就像我講的那是在公海發生的爭議第一個大家要真相全世界都要真相"},{"start":22179.437,"end":22184.17,"text":"你們反對吧?第二個要人道!要人道!好歹要關懷吧!"},{"start":22187.332,"end":22193.116,"text":"這件事情發生以後我第一時間徐副署長可以做見證我請他一定要找高森來超渡來設置靈堂"},{"start":22211.849,"end":22229.999,"text":"主任,請問有沒有跟家屬道歉?有沒有?我們也請了海巡署的署長下去,也致贈了撫慰金,也跟家屬互勉,也上香致敬,也跟亡者致歉,也跟亡者致歉。"},{"start":22236.022,"end":22245.655,"text":"我沒有請你講,請你不要講好不好?抱歉,我們要互相尊重一下請主任委員就他的問題來回答好不好?謝謝我有很多要問的來,周署長請問你周署長"},{"start":22249.884,"end":22263.353,"text":"請問你有沒有展現你的對家屬的關懷?對,這個事情關懷,有沒有?是,有有嗎?親自去嗎?親自道歉嗎?親自表達我們的歉意親自道歉?署長你做得很好,這個事情你為什麼不說?"},{"start":22276.081,"end":22299.414,"text":"其實我們陸陸續續都有發新聞人道關懷署長做其實人家覺得如果主委做更好啦如果主委能夠這樣子你也公開表達歉你一直不願意嘛到目前為止你也不願意表達歉啦最少不管誰怎麼樣最少發生在我們的海域裡面死了人"},{"start":22302.875,"end":22305.143,"text":"好歹我們要表示說,在我家發生這個事,我很抱歉,對他的家屬"},{"start":22310.246,"end":22338.388,"text":"請問你,這個道歉分兩個哦,我也問哦,人道的關懷就是道歉嘛,我也問對死者,或者對死者家屬,對哪一個?或者兩個都是?我有對死者親自到這個殯儀館上香,也向他們追悼那也特別跟死者的家屬當面致意所以等於說你對死者跟死者的家屬都道歉?都有做,都有做那個請問,管主委,你可以做同樣事情嗎?"},{"start":22341.363,"end":22341.663,"text":"好!最後一個都進來!"},{"start":22368.385,"end":22368.505,"text":"執法部長"},{"start":22399.145,"end":22403.027,"text":"如果說按照過往陸委會、海基會處理陸人在臺死亡這種意外或者是臺方的人在大陸死亡這種意外我們有很多的案例"},{"start":22427.478,"end":22433.544,"text":"海基會大概平均都是在3到400萬台幣左右,人民幣大概80萬到100萬。"},{"start":22446.195,"end":22446.355,"text":"忽然這個部分"},{"start":22468.047,"end":22478.553,"text":"已經不是問題不是因為這個問題卡住的所以我們真的也很希望說人道的這個部分解決的時候我們能夠就回歸人道但是目前我們還在努力"},{"start":22489.299,"end":22491.1,"text":"我請海委會跟海巡署"},{"start":22514.465,"end":22517.029,"text":"海洋委員會主委及海巡署署長"},{"start":22523.046,"end":22543.896,"text":"好,謝謝主席,諸位署長今天其實只尋好幾個小時的時間我看前面好幾位委員,包括我前面幾位的羅志祥委員非常關心我們海巡署的態度那中國的大內宣也表達說台灣說我方是叫做冷血所以我想要請問一下,這一次"},{"start":22547.598,"end":22574.999,"text":"針對這個往生者的不幸事件我們還尋數有沒有協助來設立靈堂有的我們在什麼時間設立的委員我們第一線每一個我們替家屬所善盡的祭拜安寧我們都有做持續到現在那我是不是請我們在金門的專案小組許副署長來報告好不好好"},{"start":22577.998,"end":22581.861,"text":"所以我們海巡署是由您親自去上香?那我們去上香了幾次?"},{"start":22606.96,"end":22627.277,"text":"我們每一天都有去白飯上香我們每天都去上香那我想請問中方的人員有沒有來上香過?就目前所知道的是沒有中方的人員從我們設立靈堂到現在沒有來上香過但是有去現場招過魂"},{"start":22628.547,"end":22642.928,"text":"那包括家屬有沒有來上巷是你們海巡署不讓中方人員來靈堂上巷嗎?金門有沒有這樣的事情?殯儀館是開放的隨時只要在開放的時間內都可以去"},{"start":22643.609,"end":22663.738,"text":"好 因為我聽說 中方甚至不讓家屬來上香我希望沒有這樣的事情所以我剛也必須要跟你們確認是不是在我們有沒有不讓家屬來上香所以未來如果有這樣的需求我希望我們海巡署可以盡力來協助盡到我們人道的關懷可不可以做到"},{"start":22666.325,"end":22692.362,"text":"可以好接下來我也想要請問在我們目前跟中方的協商當中我們協商了十多次的次數在協商當中中方有沒有聚焦於要去定義這次的事件是碰撞或是衝撞有沒有聚焦於討論這一個名詞的使用因為它包含了對事件的定義有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":22694.008,"end":22722.417,"text":"我想這個部分這個中方他對這個本事事件的定性他一直就是定義在一個惡性的一個衝撞的一個範圍之內那經過幾次溝通了以後他們開始有逐漸的把這個惡性的這個名詞拿掉那剩下撞擊的這個部分"},{"start":22723.348,"end":22724.288,"text":"那真相要由誰來釐清?"},{"start":22751.138,"end":22774.625,"text":"必須要由獨立的司法機關來做調查沒有錯現在金門地檢署司法已經介入調查我今天在這裡要再一次提醒這件事這個不是用協商可以來談的包括你們海巡署包括海委會你們也沒有權利沒有資格來對事件做定義因為真相必須交由司法來釐清"},{"start":22776.305,"end":22793.092,"text":"所以中方及我方我們對於撐撞、碰撞的名詞我們有不同的見解你們在協商當中絕對不能退讓因為這不是用協商可以談的真相要交由司法來釐清海巡署、海委會有沒有辦法保證"},{"start":22795.236,"end":22809.84,"text":"我們從頭到尾都堅持說臺灣是一個法治國家一定要經過獨立的公正的司法審判釐清之後才能夠來依據釐清的責任我們一方面勿萬勿眾一方面我們應該要擔負的責任都會擔負起來"},{"start":22812.921,"end":22820.582,"text":"沒有錯我們台灣是一個民主法治的國家所以我認為這一次的事件我現在聽下來我的結論是這是一個在執法過程當中發生的意外事故針對意外事故的部分我們在協商以及要交由司法來釐清但是我們海巡署執法的正當性我們政府絕對要來捍衛這一次的事件本身第一件我想要確認的是這個三無船破"},{"start":22842.546,"end":22860.465,"text":"在臺灣以及中國是不是都是違法的?報告委員,三無的船舶只要無船民他進入到我們的禁限制水域的話依兩岸人民關係條例跟施行細則的規定我們就是可以扣留可以留置人員而且可以有所處置"},{"start":22861.397,"end":22878.46,"text":"但中國方面對於上午傳播他們的查緝跟罰則是什麼他們比我們更重每一艘如果是查緝到的話都是會沒收而且還會罰高額的款然後會要求一定要拆解"},{"start":22879.301,"end":22897.279,"text":"所以三五傳破在中國也是違法的我想請問過去中國有沒有曾經尋求我方的協助尋求我們一起來進行三五傳破的查緝過去有沒有這樣子的案例過去在兩岸"},{"start":22898.148,"end":22900.429,"text":"這不是第一次發生嗎?這並不是一個特例嗎?過去有沒有發生過?"},{"start":22914.478,"end":22916.799,"text":"我們立刻進行搜救沒有延誤"},{"start":22942.352,"end":22945.923,"text":"第一時間進行搜救然後我們救回了"},{"start":22946.923,"end":22973.224,"text":"我們四個人都救回來了那送醫之後有兩位就是因為這個急救無效所以他宣告我們在海上的不管是我們的案件當中發生需要救援或者是海上的救援人道救援過去有沒有發生過尤其是中國的船隻以及中國的船隻這個人員相關需要我們說的過去有沒有發生過"},{"start":22973.945,"end":22973.965,"text":"請報告"},{"start":22992.577,"end":23010.562,"text":"我們在110年我們有8個案件我們救援了8艘中國的船救援了58個人在111年我們有7個案件我們有救援的船數有7艘救援起來的人數有54人"},{"start":23012.145,"end":23037.197,"text":"一百一十二年有兩次案件那麼救援的船只有一艘那麼救援的人數是七個人所以我們在過去三年我們一共發生了17件這樣子救生救難的案件那我們救救援了中國16艘的船隻然後也救援了一百一十九個人這是我們一個準確的統計數字"},{"start":23038.723,"end":23039.684,"text":"目前我們協商了十幾次的次數"},{"start":23056.293,"end":23071.307,"text":"我們最主要的困難點協商沒有辦法達成共識是什麼原因呢既然這個兩岸協同執法這過去是往例、慣例既然海上的救援這也不是第一次發生這一次我們目前協商遇到的困難是什麼"},{"start":23071.947,"end":23099.254,"text":"我想我就由我的角度來看因為這一次中方一直提出一些條件說嘛那譬如說我舉例說明我們說要真相那我們一定要等司法的整個的調查完畢之後他會給一個判斷會給一個判定或者一個結果但是他認為這個我不能夠接受"},{"start":23100.274,"end":23115.339,"text":"我們這方一定要堅持我們的司法制度我們一定要堅持按照我們的司法制度來走這個程序但他們堅持就是他們的一個想法所以我們在很多的點上面會有一些衝突"},{"start":23115.919,"end":23137.492,"text":"但是這個衝突在我們十幾次的這個這個過程當中慢慢慢慢我們有趨近我們有趨近所以我們還呼籲我們中方的這個談判的這些不管是同仁也好這家屬也好我希望我們能夠在競速還是以這樣子的一個好的一個氛圍我們繼續談判下去"},{"start":23138.353,"end":23152.531,"text":"我希望我們循往歷這樣的事件按照我方的司法我們的法治我們過去的執法來進行不要把這個事件政治化這事件是可以按照我們的執法去處理的"},{"start":23153.932,"end":23178.205,"text":"在協商的過程當中如果有條件說如果是涉及到政治條件說我希望你們一定要捍衛堅定我們的立場絕對不能退讓因為這牽涉到我們海巡執法的正當性絕對不能答應如果答應了未來台灣的水域成為海盜的天堂所有的三無船破都來台灣的海域絕對不可以讓這樣的事情發生可不可以做到我們一定會秉持這樣執法的信念好 謝謝"},{"start":23184.042,"end":23188.264,"text":"好,非常謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢,也謝謝我們的主委,謝謝署長,謝謝繼續我們請李昆城委員質詢好,謝謝主席請我們的管主委好,有請管主委"},{"start":23213.565,"end":23230.256,"text":"主委好 主委也辛苦了這次關於中國的三無傳破因為遭到取締導致翻覆案的這個案子到目前為止這個總共談判了幾次?談判了15次那最新的談判進度是怎麼樣?最後一次談判的結果是怎麼樣?"},{"start":23236.927,"end":23262.801,"text":"我們在逐漸趨近之中那是不是還是我們在最前線還是由我們許副署長來看看哪一些事情適合說明沒關係就是可以對外說明的就說清楚就是最後一次的第15次的談判那到底談判重點在哪裡卡在哪裡能不能請這個副署長來講一下我想在"},{"start":23264.252,"end":23292.339,"text":"最近的一次也就是在昨天我想陸方的主要的訴求主要的訴求由於我們兩岸法律制度的不同兩岸法律制度的不同所以說在這個共識的凝聚方面共識的凝聚方面還有相當的落差那未來往後我們還會來持續法律制度的不同是指什麼就是彼此的法律作業的程序是"},{"start":23293.467,"end":23317.279,"text":"你這樣講其實我不太清楚是他們要求我們要先道歉嗎那我們是希望說等這個司法調查結果出來之後再說嗎類似這樣就是說包括真相也好或者是究責也好台灣有台灣的司法制度在我們有我們的法治體系我們總是認為說應該要到最後真相釐清的時候有些事情我們才能做"},{"start":23317.999,"end":23341.154,"text":"也因此我們會希望說大家能夠了解台灣的司法制度的情況之下我們在現在我們先 bypass 我們這個司法的我們先來抽離這個司法一個未來的一個冗長程序的限制我們先用撫慰的方式"},{"start":23341.854,"end":23342.274,"text":"中方是要求我們先道歉嗎?"},{"start":23366.297,"end":23367.538,"text":"在談判的過程當中,有中方要求海巡人員到對岸去接受詢問"},{"start":23388.959,"end":23408.075,"text":"我們剛剛有重複說明了一下那本席剛剛沒有聽到簡單的要說明協商的過程當中曾經有提出這樣的訴求經過我們多次的溝通以後已經逐步的化解剛剛有提出這種要求嗎是"},{"start":23412.48,"end":23439.048,"text":"除了這個字外還有沒有其他我們也認為是無理的要求委員我想我們不用無理兩個字的話就是說對於制度認知的落差我一直都希望這樣定位因為我們還是要秉持善意那舉一個例子就是說撫慰金或者是賠償這兩個概念完全不同因為在制度的認識上真的有很大的落差所以包括這個部分現在也都還在努力之中"},{"start":23439.508,"end":23453.318,"text":"因為你們在第一線談判所以你們的用詞我知道會比較低調一點點但是站在我們的立場該堅守就是要堅守啊這沒有什麼叫我們的人過去詢問那以後怎麼執法我們是取締非法的善無傳播對不對"},{"start":23456.121,"end":23475.949,"text":"三無傳播我們要取締,中國要不要取締?他們規定也很嚴格中國有沒有要求我們也要取締?過去協同執法的時候兩邊都要取締這種三無傳播嘛,對不對?那這一次也是三無傳播嘛,基本上越到我們的這個季限制海域我們就是要取締嘛,對不對?"},{"start":23477.55,"end":23499.37,"text":"對阿,所以整個事情就是,我認為啦,就是說山湖船舶接近我們的,侵入我們的境縣制海域,那我們知道這個消息了,然後我們海巡署就過去了,希望了解說到底這個山湖船舶是要做什麼嘛,那在這個要調查的過程當中,那他們我按照這個早上這個署長的說法,速度非常的快,"},{"start":23500.947,"end":23527.295,"text":"然後最後是不是有導致翻覆的情況當然這個司法還是要做調查當然就我們的立場來講說第一個我們是在執法我們是在取締非法所以我是支持這個管主委把這個專案報告名稱改成取締大陸及快艇事故這是我是支持的這是要站穩台灣的主權那我再請問一下因為在520之前會不會有類似這一種"},{"start":23528.885,"end":23532.588,"text":"報告委員,越界捕魚我們就是用越界捕魚除了越界捕魚之外我們沒有把它當作是灰色地帶戰略至於說燈檢我們真的很不願意看到還有第二次"},{"start":23558.127,"end":23587.057,"text":"那基本上其實登檢也是很罕有而且多半都是在政治的氛圍的情況之下所發生譬如說去年的歷屆演習的那個階段那以及這一次那麼那是一個比較政治性的登檢那我想中國在這樣的兩次的登檢的過程當中我必須說一句公道話就是說基本上還是有某種程度的"},{"start":23589.878,"end":23597.601,"text":"我是希望說船是台灣的船要登檢我認為要有節制但是我們認為不應該登檢這個是我們堅定的主張我們有SOP所以報告委員我想海巡署他更可以來說明我們都知道這個定位是政治性的登檢"},{"start":23616.229,"end":23639.837,"text":"所以當他是政治性的登檢的時候他就不是說海盜來了要登檢什麼你叫他去送死叫他不要停不是的不是的所以在這樣的一種政治性的氛圍情況之下的登檢我們的SOP就是我們會希望我們的民船趕快跟我們海巡聯絡然後我們會趕快去馳援然後在這個過程之中在這個過程之中保持安全能夠跟我們對開是最好的"},{"start":23644.598,"end":23667.543,"text":"所以跟委員報告說在這樣的一個SOP之下我們總是希望能夠把這樣的一個行動然後不要再繼續我們的SOP就是我們就是不讓他登檢那我們就先回來目前是這樣子嗎我想我們從海巡同仁的口中來說明就可以更精確好嗎我們請我們巡防組的來簡單講一下"},{"start":23672.695,"end":23689.074,"text":"我是巡邏組長首先我們是針對海域來做區分分別從限制水域外到限制水域乃至於到禁止水域那上次的那個我們的遊艇呢這一艘遊艇是在限制水域外是那通常我們在會先用透過雷打來"},{"start":23689.955,"end":23709.678,"text":"曾知知道這件事知道有這艘船之後我們會透過那個監控如果他進到裡面在我們的水域裡面或者我發現的時候我會馬上通報我們的線上過去然後切到他大陸的公務船跟我方的船舶之間之後再透過兩岸協調的管道來做溝通"},{"start":23710.998,"end":23732.155,"text":"好 那說520之前如果類似的事情發生的話是不是不應該讓他們上船登檢?絕對是這個態度跟立場對啊 因為上次就讓他們登船上船登檢過啦欸 這也算是台灣主權的延伸欸對不對 這是我們的船欸他憑什麼來上船登檢?是 我們也延伸了這個態度我們有違規嗎?沒有沒有違規啊 那為什麼 憑什麼他們要來上船登檢?沒有這個權利嘛"},{"start":23741.564,"end":23759.541,"text":"在這個1989年的時候,35年前在中國在這個海域上面還有萬船齊發這也是一個政治性的氛圍那時候就是要來嚇阻那我不知道說現在在520之前會不會有類似這一種萬船齊發"},{"start":23762.339,"end":23789.781,"text":"中國現在不依法取締他們的商務船舶我認為是單純對中國漁民違法行為的放任還是官方支持對金馬海域的干擾執法這個對我可能剩下最後一分鐘這件事情我有三個堅持請海洋委員這邊我希望能夠堅持下去第一個涉及管轄權的問題涉及主權的問題絕對不能有任何讓步"},{"start":23790.829,"end":23817.201,"text":"2.對於中國漁民的違法行為取締不能打折3.給予人道的撫慰金不能有任何附加條件我們願意給對方罹難者人道撫慰金但是不能讓對岸有任何的附加條件主委 這個在談判的過程能不能堅守至少這三個原則"},{"start":23818.574,"end":23833.897,"text":"報告委員我們交給專案小組我們交給專案小組來作為參考好不好好不好我希望取締非法維持合法堅守台灣的主權在這次的談判過程當中我認為是要堅守下去的好不好是謝謝委員指導我們一定會接下來還會再繼續再談判下去嗎會的他們還留在金門嗎"},{"start":23844.085,"end":23847.826,"text":"談判的時間不是重點,立場要彼此調整,釋出最大善意,那個才是重點"},{"start":23862.556,"end":23880.704,"text":"我當然知道談判時間不是重點我們會掌握所有的節奏好不好好 謝謝坤城委員、哲勛也謝謝管組委員、副組長謝謝你們謝謝繼續請邱毅英委員邱毅英委員、邱毅英委員不在再請我們的鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":23897.899,"end":23922.422,"text":"主席、各位委員,有請海巡署署長哪一位署長?署長是不是?海巡署署長,謝謝副主委兼署長對,副主委兼署長,謝謝這個署長好,辛苦了齁應該的這個為了維護我們的主權還有海域的安全"},{"start":23923.78,"end":23925.001,"text":"我們這個召委以內政委員會的開會通知是立法院內政委員會的開通知"},{"start":23953.399,"end":23981.949,"text":"這個題目是金門撞船案這個金門撞船案兩種可能嘛一個是大陸快艇撞我國的巡防艇另外一種可能我國的巡防艇撞大陸快艇當然還有第三種可能兩個同時碰撞"},{"start":23990.913,"end":24011.358,"text":"我自己是事務官出身我當過事務官很久30年我也當過常務的副主委很多年無論是民進黨執政、國民黨執政我都當過這為一個我不知道你們是不是稱為事務官"},{"start":24012.813,"end":24015.614,"text":"除了我以外以下全部是事務官主長是政務官是副署長"},{"start":24041.836,"end":24063.659,"text":"我們有請副署長我常常過去當事務官我們要考量到就我們原住民族的前夜來講我們要去怎麼樣去協助我們的長官你要協助我們的廣州委廣州委員過去立委當很久"},{"start":24065.324,"end":24093.503,"text":"這個要調整不是那麼容易所以有時候這個該欠打或是拜託甚至用拜託兩個字這個可以減少很多的相關的衝突尤其是涉及到海域的安全海巡弟兄的執法各方面所以這個部分更要去勇敢的"},{"start":24094.512,"end":24119.584,"text":"勇敢的去跟長官報告好我們看這個因為我們的資訊很少了張偉的資訊也是很少了對不對所以我們當然就看媒體的報導啊我們就看靜州刊的報導靜州刊過濾了吧靜州刊的報導你看他這邊提到負責調查的金門地檢署"},{"start":24120.533,"end":24149.081,"text":"檢察長朱士瑜親上火線第一時間就發現中國快艇左旋下方有一處明顯的撞痕用肉眼即可看到凹陷處一聲有碰撞這邊也提到碰撞碰撞碰撞就剛才講了三種可能性甚至四種可能性都有所以這個部分我們看一下"},{"start":24152.171,"end":24154.092,"text":"這是你今天的答詢呢?"},{"start":24175.504,"end":24176.105,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":24192.571,"end":24217.89,"text":"在這個準備分檢的過程當中就會發生像剛剛我們影片所發生的因為互相一個是逃跑一個是追逐這樣子互動的一個狀況之下難免會有一些擦碰我想這個一定會有所以我們在這一次的這個檢調對於兩艘船查扣之後請這些相關的單位來做這個查驗的時候"},{"start":24236.425,"end":24241.07,"text":"所以這個部分當主委我不知道是一開始你就下了這個標題"},{"start":24243.407,"end":24271.142,"text":"我說今天的那個報告的標題是你下的還是主委下的我不知道是誰改的沒關係重點不管怎麼樣我們要第一個我剛講的一開始的原則減少衝突立法院難免會有不同的立場對不對民進黨立委當然質詢的方向不一樣"},{"start":24272.579,"end":24298.91,"text":"但是怎麼樣去減少衝突尤其是涉及到兩岸的和平我們就講原住民來說主委也很清楚主長你也很清楚在海巡弟兄裡面原住民的比例很高我們的軍人的比例也很高原住民是不怕打戰的啦"},{"start":24300.901,"end":24301.722,"text":"我們都會打仗,我們是執法。"},{"start":24325.849,"end":24326.39,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24342.455,"end":24343.776,"text":"好,我們看了你們的,好,好,好"},{"start":24360.273,"end":24379.992,"text":"那麽主委在看到我們這個題目之後他就認為我們為什麽要寫這個題目我說我們這就是一個單一的執法事件我們就是一個取締、一個三無傳播但是我們要好好檢討所以我們要好好檢討是這個問題我早上已經特別提出過去"},{"start":24381.173,"end":24406.789,"text":"立法院的執請不是只有召委本人我也當過召委很多年我提的文字內政委員會或別的委員會都會跟我討論說這個題目要不要稍微修正一下改一下所以這個都會所以這個部分的溝通很重要好我們來看"},{"start":24410.313,"end":24437.488,"text":"這是你們的報告本次涉案傳播細數三無傳播無傳名無傳播證書無傳及登記對不對當然用詞就我來看每個人的觀點不同我尊重大陸及快艇它是無傳及港登記"},{"start":24439.349,"end":24466.772,"text":"無船舶證書無船名這個部分這個有時候還是稍微謹慎一下這個因為我們依法例等一下我先看一下條文依法例台灣第7與大陸第7人民關係條例第29條第1項使用的是叫大陸船舶我們依法行政大陸船舶"},{"start":24468.637,"end":24469.077,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24492.176,"end":24492.336,"text":"這裏面的報告提到"},{"start":24513.618,"end":24541.489,"text":"立法院內政委員會108年會議結議考量海巡人員執法環境特殊建議海巡署員2個月內研議配發密錄器與基層人員期間須陸續籌補1358台為目前配發所使用密錄器未採用執行人員每一台方式配發未來將改採每人一台方式配發當然你後面有提到"},{"start":24543.134,"end":24569.587,"text":"動資一倍金我的意思是說這個部分今天在這個快艇裡面我們的快艇我們的名稱叫什麼我們的那個海巡艇不是只有一個人好幾個人在裡面顯然如果都沒有密錄器的話顯然還是"},{"start":24571.658,"end":24573.439,"text":"請問一下署長,你們今年什麼時候會完成全部這個實踐報告?"},{"start":24592.549,"end":24594.53,"text":"我們希望能在9月以前完成"},{"start":24610.637,"end":24636.756,"text":"莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員．莊瑞雄委員不在．洪孟楷委員．洪孟楷委員．洪孟楷委員不在．林沛翔委員．林沛翔委員．林沛翔委員不在．謝一鳳．謝一鳳．謝一鳳委員不在．吳思瑤．吳思瑤．吳思瑤委員不在．鍾嘉斌．鍾嘉斌．鍾嘉斌委員不在．李燕秀．李燕秀．李燕秀委員不在．"},{"start":24637.876,"end":24664.93,"text":"楊瓊英、楊瓊英、楊瓊英委員不在王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在林思敏、林思敏、林思敏委員不在林楚英、林楚英、林楚英委員不在鄭振權、鄭振權、鄭振權委員不在蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜委員不在林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在"},{"start":24665.27,"end":24667.291,"text":"邱志偉王世堅張家俊游皓林德福張祺凱馬文君顏寬恒"},{"start":24693.867,"end":24702.535,"text":"廖偉祥．委員不在．羅廷偉．委員不在登記發言委員．除了不在場者之外．其餘都已經發言完畢．我們現在詢答結束委員．陳冠廷．楊瓊英．王宏威．張綺凱．所提的書面諮詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":24715.866,"end":24727.299,"text":"書面局質詢還有未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一周內以書面來答覆並複製本會本日的會議到此結束我們現在散會謝謝大家辛苦了"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}