{"error":false,"id":["156903"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156903,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156903","日期":"2024-11-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-14T10:37:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-14T10:50:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3be4d629f30d80fc1ffd7b6b5cb373b4dd5ae72a34e051796ebb479112f1783c0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:37:40 - 10:50:09","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案。\n二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)(僅詢答)\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案。(僅詢答)\n【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.79784375,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.371593750000001,"end":8.232218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.42159375,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.923468750000001,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.69096875,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.457843750000002,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.05221875,"end":27.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.85784375,"end":28.195343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.465343750000002,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.65909375,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.09284375,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.673468750000005,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.23409375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.61346875,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.01409375,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.330343750000004,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.90409375,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.40596875000001,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.852843750000005,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.63721875,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.83096875000001,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.73346875,"end":70.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.72034375,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.30596875,"end":77.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.36471875000001,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.09846875000001,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.69284375000001,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.08909375,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.77159375000001,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.79659375,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.47471875000001,"end":106.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.57534375,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.59221875,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.84534375000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.41909375,"end":108.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.45284375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.46971875000001,"end":108.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.55409375,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":109.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.58221875000001,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.34096875,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.74846875,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.79471875000002,"end":138.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.00534375,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.96721875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.11471875,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.51534375,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.51096875000002,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.72846875000002,"end":156.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.96846875,"end":161.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.50784375,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.09846875000002,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.43909375,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.35846875000001,"end":175.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.12596875,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.67846875,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.86409375000002,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.91471875000002,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.94846875000002,"end":177.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.34909375,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.81159375000001,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.51971875,"end":195.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.43909375,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1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的是真的有效嗎?如果說他是用那個超超臨界的話是有效啦。換成天然氣會更好啦。換成天然氣更好。不過天然氣排放又多。他少很多,比燃煤大概只燃煤的大概剩下一半左右啦。"},{"start":463.669,"end":490.738,"text":"空污災,多一點給屏東,好不好?這個我們會鼓勵,我努力一下。因為中山山脈的尾端就在那邊,一兩千公尺的山都擋住。我每天看那個中山山脈三角線那邊,灰茫茫的一片,以為是山藍之氣,結果那就是空氣污染。等到下雨啊、颱風啊、稍稍的,火落落的,待會就火天氣天氣。這個都很糟糕的事情耶。"},{"start":492.011,"end":498.72,"text":"好,那最後一個我再問你那個廁所的問題,廁所這個這一次感覺非常好,我們署長非常努力。"},{"start":501.972,"end":521.654,"text":"我去赫爾新基在那個機場看到那個廁所是一間一間的都是進去有馬桶就是小便斗然後有坐著馬桶那馬桶還是那個可以沖水的免治馬桶那進去沒有婚男女"},{"start":522.856,"end":527.6,"text":"二、尊重你是男的、女的、中性的、人道的事情。你是不是要站起來、要借言、人道的事情。"},{"start":539.391,"end":554.02,"text":"這很文明啊,很現代化啊,我們他也不在推這個,還在停留在說男的廁所一個小便斗,女的這邊要三間,三個小便斗這邊要15間,13間私人,當然女性的廁所多一點,這個是我們已經通過的。"},{"start":559.929,"end":569.021,"text":"那如果像我剛剛這樣像赫爾辛基那北歐那邊我想應該我們要往前跳出去就是尊重這個啊"},{"start":569.997,"end":590.018,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?報告委員 這個就是性別友善廁所啦這個也是我們努力的方向目前比例的確還有一點低但是我們新的都鼓勵要做這些事情就做這樣就沒有困難你的時候進去就是不過這個也要跟委員報告這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力啦但是我覺得這個是國際的趨勢還是要往那方面走"},{"start":591.792,"end":618.254,"text":"因為真的我們現在都尊重兩性平等、三性平等都無所謂啦。但是你自己認為我今天要用坐著,我就坐著。今天我要站著,就站著。視態力啊。我覺得很好,我做醫生的角度,我覺得這個真的是非常文明,而且是非常有衛生的。所以這個,那廁所的比例,補助公共廁所啦,補助的我們的執行效力好像不好捏,署長。"},{"start":620.815,"end":639.103,"text":"我們在未來到118年我們還會再有46億8750萬要興建2500座新建或修建的廁所那這個我們在努力那之前前一段已經有新建補助4290座廁所這是大於我們的KPI"},{"start":643.045,"end":643.505,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":643.505,"end":643.645,"text":"以上"},{"start":659.471,"end":674.925,"text":"那廁所做好像我們這次去看去屏東看這個東港啊這個都很棒但是呢廁所的維護是大問題我以前我有幫那個墾丁大街升起了一座那個時候就花500多萬"},{"start":676.55,"end":693.445,"text":"那當然墾丁大街他們管理委員會接到的那些他們就請歐巴桑在那裡整理,整理最重要啦,不然你自己做做的,不然人家整理就很難過的啊。所以你推廣這個廁所文明這個是非常重要,但是你要交給當地的團體啦。"},{"start":695.266,"end":721.704,"text":"請他們維護,因為那個才是長長久久啊。所以你不是只有拿去去的,就送給他後面後續看要怎麼弄,我就覺得這個緩和是重要。部長,你覺得怎麼樣?其實第一個是說要養成尊重這個清潔人員的文化啦。例如說上完之後要輕輕去,謝謝你啦。另外一個是要把這個工作把他這種尊榮感把他拉高一點點。"},{"start":725.026,"end":725.586,"text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員我們現在休息10分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1378,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時37分）請部長。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長好。預算案已經開始審查了，所以大家提出來的問題五花八門，我今天就先就小琉球的問題請問部長，因為上次我們有去小琉球。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：小琉球有兩個港，一個是白沙港，以客運為主；另一個是大福港，商業用的沙石等貨運船，都是從大福港上來比較多。好，我們看大福港，大福港西側現在有一些工程在施作，應該不是環境部的吧？"],["彭部長啓明：不是。"],["蘇委員清泉：不是，看起來應該是大鵬灣國家公園管理處，現在是要填土，弄個比較好行走的斜坡，請問，一般這個土方是臺灣過去的，還是在地的？"],["彭部長啓明：這個要查一下，要看源頭在什麼地方。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這個土方裡面有寶特瓶、垃圾、袋子、玻璃等，什麼都有，那些土被推到消波塊這邊，弄得整個消波塊很髒，這個環境部有沒有辦法出手？"],["彭部長啓明：我們請署長說明。"],["顏署長旭明：跟委員報告，這個港的興建權責機關不在環境部，不過如果有像委員講的裡面夾雜一些垃圾，我們會去看一下，如果確實是垃圾堆在這個地方，其實也牽涉到廢棄物清理法第四十六條第三款，那是有刑責的。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，你們派人去看一下！"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們會派人去看一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：另外，我們再看一下這個影片。","（播放影片）"],["蘇委員清泉：上次我跟部長去的時候也有看到，現在的綠蠵龜差不多將近有1,000隻，在全世界可能是數一數二，綠蠵龜能夠在那邊存活，第一要有東西吃，第二就是環境很友善，所以綠蠵龜來了就不想走，部長，這你上次有看到嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：有啊！很漂亮。"],["蘇委員清泉：每隻都很大，有的近幾百公斤，綠蠵龜到底能活多久我也不知道，有人說可以活到200年，到底是真的嗎？我沒辦法活200年，所以沒辦法考究。現在看到的這個是防波堤，不知道以前是哪個天才把它蓋成防波堤，那裡本來是一片沙灘，現在蓋成這樣，上次交通部也有去考察，我問是不是可以把防波堤拆掉，因為完全沒有功能，拆掉以後，鋪上沙子，因為這一片本來是綠蠵龜可以產卵的地方，這個部長有辦法處理嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我很想處理，但這很像是農業部的權責。"],["蘇委員清泉：你不要推啦！看要怎樣處理，把它弄一弄，有辦法嗎？把它敲掉，然後鋪上沙子，不然生態會出問題，這個很重要。"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來跟農業部反映。"],["蘇委員清泉：當初會搞這個東西，實在是很好玩，上次交通部次長也覺得匪夷所思，所以那一片要處理。","再來，有關空污部分，因為時間有限，我講快一點。屏東縣的工廠是高雄的六分之一，高雄那邊有六千六百多間，包括林園石化工業園區、興達火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠等等，空污差不多都是從那邊來的，像PM2.5、PM10、臭氧、懸浮微粒等，屏東都比高雄還要高，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們屏東人是用愛在呼吸，都沒什麼補償，也沒什麼回饋，我們的空污費又遠低於高雄，差不多只有十分之一而已……"],["彭部長啓明：差不多。"],["蘇委員清泉：差不多嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：我請司長來回答相關數字。"],["蘇委員清泉：司長，你們都沒有作為耶！"],["張司長順欽：不是，跟委員報告，我們有很積極的作為，因為空污費部分，在固定源部分，有60%是地方自己收，也就是如果工廠比較多，就會收的比較多；第二個是移動源，這是依據加油站的發油量付20%；第三個是營建工地，百分之百是地方自己收，這樣算下來，屏東去年大概收了二億一千多萬的空污費，這是他們自己收的。另外……"],["蘇委員清泉：高雄市是不是收三十億？"],["張司長順欽：沒有啦！他們是七億多，不到八億，差不多是4倍，因為他們的工廠多。"],["蘇委員清泉：那中央的空污怎麼補助……"],["張司長順欽：這就是下一個重點。我們每年的補助是透過中央收的那些微薄的錢來調配，如果空污費比較少的，像屏東，我們的補助款歷年來都是第一名，明年也是第一名，有三千多萬補助款是透過空污基金來補助的，所以對我們來講，只要他提得出來，我們……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們微薄的空污費，到底有多少？"],["張司長順欽：我們前幾年才破產啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，環境部的預算太少啦！77億多，實在有夠「漏氣」！"],["彭部長啓明：好啦！我也沒面子啦！所以委員我努力，我都有跟我的同事勉勵，要破百億！"],["蘇委員清泉：當然啦！太少了，這要怎麼玩？高雄PM2.5全部飄到屏東來，就像剛剛盧縣一委員講的，整個太武、來義一年有三分之二的時間都是紫爆，潮州、內埔也很糟糕，有辦法改善嗎？你們每天在這裡講這些，講一講……"],["彭部長啓明：有啦！高雄有改善，而高雄改善，屏東也會一起改善，這個會啦！我們會來處理。"],["蘇委員清泉：源頭要嚴格啊！"],["彭部長啓明：源頭有啦！他們有注意啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：興達火力發電廠是最大污染源，還有大林，他們一直說要改善，中鼎說要用最新的燒煤方法，真的有效嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果他是用超超臨界的話，是有效的，不過換成天然氣會更好。"],["蘇委員清泉：換成天然氣會更好？天然氣二氧化碳排放比較多啊！"],["彭部長啓明：其實它少很多，大概只有燃煤的一半左右。"],["蘇委員清泉：空污費多一點給屏東，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會努力，我們會努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：多擠一些，我們是農業縣，結果因為中央山脈尾端就在那邊，都是一、二千公尺的山，都擋住了，我每天看中央山脈山腳下都是灰茫茫一片，以為是山嵐之氣，結果都是空氣污染，要等到下雨、颱風掃一掃，才有辦法讓空氣乾乾淨淨，這是很糟糕的事情。","好，最後一個我要問的是有關廁所的問題。這次感覺非常好，署長非常努力，我去赫爾辛基時，看到機場的廁所都是一間一間的，進去都有小便斗，也有坐式馬桶，馬桶還是可以沖水的免治馬桶，沒有分男女，廁所就是廁所，都是一間一間，男女都可以使用，所以也沒有什麼一比幾的問題。第二個，尊重你是男的、女的、中性的，都是你家的事情，進去後要站、要坐，也是你家的事情，這很文明、很現代化，我們為什麼不推這個？現在還停留在男廁一個小便斗，女廁這邊就要3間，如果3個小便斗，另一邊就要十多間，嚇死人啊！當然，女性廁所多一點是我們通過的，但可以採用我剛剛講的赫爾辛基、北歐的例子，我想我們應該往前跳出去，就是尊重這個啊！你的看法怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這就是性別友善廁所，也是我們努力的方向，目前比例的確還有點低，但新的部分我們都鼓勵要這麼做。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是這樣，沒有分男女廁所……"],["彭部長啓明：對，我們希望新的是這樣，不過也要跟委員報告，這個還是會遭遇到一些團體的阻力，但我覺得這是國際趨勢，還是要往那方面走。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我們現在真的都尊重兩性平等、三性平等，這都無所謂，你自己認為今天要用坐的就坐著，要站的就站著，隨便你啊！我從醫生的角度來看，覺得這個真的是非常文明，而且非常衛生，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：有關廁所比例、補助公共廁所部分，署長，我們的執行效率好像不好，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：請署長說明。"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，未來到118年，我們還會有46億8,750萬興建2,500座新建或修建廁所，這個我們在努力，之前已經興建補助4,290座，大於我們的KPI，我們原先訂定的目標是4,000，這個我們會再努力。委員剛才講的那個性別友善廁所，除了這些人以外，可能也有一些人工造口的人要使用廁所，這些我們都會一併考慮進去，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，廁所要做好，像我們這次去屏東東港，就都很棒，但是廁所的維護也是大問題，以前我幫墾丁大街申請了一座，那個時候好像花了五百多萬，墾丁大街管理委員會接到後，就請了歐巴桑幫忙整理，其實整理最重要，不然做好了，沒人整理，馬上又很髒，所以推廣廁所文明非常重要，廁所做好要交給當地團體，請他們維護，這樣才能長長久久，不是只幫他們蓋一蓋送給他而已，後續要怎麼維護反而比較重要，部長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是要養成尊重清潔人員的文化，例如上完廁所之後說聲很乾淨，謝謝清潔人員。另外要把這個工作的尊榮感拉高一點，等於這件事情一定要去鼓勵，不要讓大家覺得這是最基本、最低賤的事情，而是有榮譽感，就像日本的職人文化一樣，這是我們要努力的目標。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，預算搞多一點，人家都是2、3,000億，1、2,000億，你這77億笑死人了！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我會加油。"],["蘇委員清泉：加油啦！謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時50分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}