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(第五案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查)\n二、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員賴士葆等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員邱志偉等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(七)\t本院委員許宇甄等22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)\n三、審查：\n(一)\t本院委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)\t本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案。\n(四)\t本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第十八條之一條文草案」案。\n(五)\t本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)\t本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案。(詢答)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":9.599093750000002,"end":13.817843750000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":14.25659375,"end":20.449718750000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.74096875,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":25.984718750000003,"end":26.65971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":27.13221875,"end":33.40971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":33.62909375,"end":35.805968750000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":36.26159375,"end":41.290343750000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":41.56034375,"end":43.517843750000004,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.69909375,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.16284375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.242843750000006,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":49.407218750000006,"end":49.47471875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.47471875,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.80784375,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":54.705968750000004,"end":55.313468750000006,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":56.14034375000001,"end":56.680343750000006,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.157218750000006,"end":56.697218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":56.697218750000005,"end":81.48659375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":82.48221875,"end":83.27534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":83.81534375000001,"end":85.41846875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":85.92471875000001,"end":87.71346875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":88.01721875000001,"end":90.70034375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":90.81846875000001,"end":92.03346875000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":92.28659375000001,"end":106.61346875000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":106.96784375,"end":124.07909375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.39159375000001,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":124.51784375000001,"end":125.24346875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":125.49659375,"end":128.56784375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":129.14159375,"end":135.73971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":136.36409375,"end":139.03034375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.77284375000002,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":147.80534375000002,"end":153.37409375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":153.71159375000002,"end":164.25846875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":165.01784375,"end":178.02846875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.02846875,"end":178.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":178.55159375000002,"end":178.56846875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.33596875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭委員正鈐","start":188.22096875000003,"end":198.10971875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_na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對不對那我在想說這個情況我就覺得很混亂就是現在立法委員他要提這個案子可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到整個明年8月1號之後"},{"start":136.428,"end":163.701,"text":"條例第九條及第十一條條文修正草案。」案。 是這樣的一個情況嗎?跟委員報告目前現在我們的任務籌備處的任務當然是要讓這一個個資法的主管機關個人資料綁匯生出來。理解那我這邊要特別提到一個點因為目前針對一般的民間的人士如果洩漏個資很容易就會被處罰可是政府部門洩漏個資好像只要否認就沒有事你有沒有發現?"},{"start":165.143,"end":169.165,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":188.237,"end":190.879,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":205.964,"end":211.249,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":225.27,"end":232.975,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":249.665,"end":277.406,"text":"條例第十一條及第十二條條文修正草案案。」案。他就覺得為什麼他們這麼小然後他們的個資一樣洩漏?主任你有沒有知道這件事情?新聞的報導有之前有聽到你有注意到這個事情對不對?那你覺得這些小朋友的個資他們是從哪裡洩漏出去的?當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊出去做學校端就洩漏出去了嗎?有沒有輪負責任?"},{"start":279.485,"end":296.394,"text":"對目前假如說以當然現在還是分管會由教育部這邊會來做中央目的事業組員來做查賬OK那這個部分我要特別講一下因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識他們覺得他們可能從小一入學的時候資料系就被賣出去了"},{"start":297.254,"end":303.876,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查："},{"start":324.394,"end":331.276,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查�"},{"start":353.643,"end":359.167,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":384.844,"end":398.3,"text":"這我要確認因為我們有推估齁我們在能源署有推估針對整個用電需求量如果把AI或半導體這相關的投資進來會成長多少我們那時候是有成長差不多這2.5到2.8左右OK"},{"start":400.623,"end":426.602,"text":"那麼台電這邊說法的時候我就說因為就是因為半導體跟AI需要的一個部分所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的一個用電跟你講的數字是符合的那麼在1151萬千瓦這個部分的時候我們回推現在大家因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%那我就回推的部分就現在的我們的一個"},{"start":428.184,"end":448.798,"text":"負債量大概在5,755萬千瓦到3,836萬千瓦之間那我查了昨天的一個數字確實也差不多在3,000多萬千瓦確實是符合這個狀態那我這邊我就再回去看了一下這台電發言人這邊講出來的情況他說我們今年再生能源的比例會佔到12.1%是這樣子的一個數字嗎"},{"start":450.879,"end":454.161,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":477.595,"end":483.965,"text":"未來十年應該再生能源我們現在再推估的話太陽光電應該如果從現在到2033的話應該會增加到4GW然後那個離岸風電應該會整體齁"},{"start":492.577,"end":510.753,"text":"因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字我只是看到這數字裡頭我其實一直在玩文字遊戲為什麼?因為他直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1786萬千瓦然後我們再生能源這邊的時候就可以產生每年多200萬到300萬千瓦"},{"start":512.995,"end":528.4,"text":"那如果這樣算起來的時候我們光是再生能源的部分就可以cover掉我們未來十年要增加的1151萬千瓦你知道嗎?就是我們大型機具夠我們再生能源就可以遠遠的cover掉我們未來十年要增加的部分"},{"start":531.043,"end":550.791,"text":"這個數字這個是裝置容量不是不是他講的是負載量這個是裝置容量所以我就覺得台電跟經濟部這邊一直在玩一個文字遊戲因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分那這個部分到底要出來多少所以你說這個1151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎"},{"start":554.612,"end":556.493,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":577.498,"end":580.06,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":597.742,"end":599.943,"text":"條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"},{"start":614.327,"end":616.069,"text":"條例第七條及第十一條條文修正草案：一、審查：一、審查：一、"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:24:43+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:24:48.194000+08:00","text":"主席好，我想請經濟部的連次長、國發會彭副主委，還有個資保護委員會籌備處的李主任。","quality":0.139},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-14T11:24:48.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:24:53.388000+08:00","text":"連次長、彭副主委、李主任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:24:53.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:24:53.468000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:10.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:10.906000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:11.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:17.775000+08:00","text":"我首先問一下李主任好了，次長的部分，我最後再來請教。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:20.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:26.286000+08:00","text":"有關2022年底發生2,300萬筆國人戶政資料外洩案，請問你有沒有掌握這件事情？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:28.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:30.304000+08:00","text":"在之前的……應該說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:30.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:32.746000+08:00","text":"你要推給國發會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:33.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:37.311000+08:00","text":"不是，就是之前的一些資訊我們有……當然現在還是有去掌握。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:37.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:25:39.233000+08:00","text":"你有掌握嘛！對。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:25:39.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:26:15.389000+08:00","text":"OK，那我想問一下，在這個案子當中涉及資料外洩事件的其實是內政部，卻一再對外否認有相關的事情，但是內政部這個說法其實已經被調查局資安站這邊直接打臉，調查局資安站在這邊的時候直接表示臺灣這位鄭姓工程師花了15萬元去買的那2,300萬筆的資料確實是臺灣的戶政資料，你知道這個事情嗎？","quality":0.468},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:26:15.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:26:18.172000+08:00","text":"是，那個部分的話，媒體也有報導。OK。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:26:18.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:26:27.981000+08:00","text":"那我想請問一下，針對這一個部分，在洩漏個資的嫌疑人方面，坦白說，在民間只要有洩漏個資的時候，一般就會被處罰，對不對？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:26:30.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:26:48.606000+08:00","text":"在這一次有很多委員提案，可是我看到我們籌備處這邊的回應基本上都是希望等到我們主管機關明年成立之後再來做進一步的研議，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:26:48.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:26:49.666000+08:00","text":"明年8月11日以前……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:26:49.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:27:02.990000+08:00","text":"是，這個情況我就覺得很混亂，現在立法委員要提這個案子，可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到明年8月1號之後再來大幅的調整，是這樣的一個情況嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:27:02.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:27:11.734000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，現在我們籌備處的任務是要讓這一個個資法的主管機關──個人資料保護委員會生出來……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:27:11.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:27:26.701000+08:00","text":"理解，那我這邊要特別提到一個點，因為目前針對一般的民間人士如果洩漏個資，很容易就會被處罰，可是政府部門洩漏個資好像只要否認就沒事，你有沒有發現？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:27:26.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:27:39.313286+08:00","text":"所以說在明年8月1號之後，你要大幅地來研議、修這個部分的時候，公部門如果洩漏個資的部分，你們會不會把處罰也放進去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:27:39.313286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:27:51.925571+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，未來的監管的話，就是公務機關跟非公務機關的統籌性監管的會朝這個方向，這部分我們會來列入修法的研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:27:51.925571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:04.537857+08:00","text":"都必須要把它列入嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:28:04.537857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:17.150143+08:00","text":"我想這個部分其實很重要，比方說，這個2,300萬筆的個資洩漏出去之後，感覺政府部門只要一直否認，好像就沒有人被懲處，至少我目前看起來是沒有人被懲處，對不對？","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:28:17.150143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:29.762429+08:00","text":"我們希望之後如果公部門洩漏個資的時候必須要有人被懲處，我覺得這很重要，否則大家都不用負責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:28:29.762429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:42.374714+08:00","text":"而洩漏個資很大一部分可能都是從公部門出去的，2,300萬筆個資出去的時候，後續會怎麼用，我們都不知道，然後你如果說要等到受損害的時候才去主張、提起損害賠償之訴，那都遙遙無期了。","quality":0.013},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:28:42.374714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:54.987000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望洩漏個資這件事情在公部門當中就需要被處罰，好不好？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:28:54.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:28:59.931000+08:00","text":"另外有個部分，因為現在有很多同學，他們其實在PTT上面就直接把它給公布出來，他就覺得為什麼他們年紀這麼小，然後他們的個資一樣被洩漏？","quality":0.377},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:01.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:02.613000+08:00","text":"主任知不知道這件事情？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:03.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:05.695000+08:00","text":"新聞之前有報導。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:05.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:08.057000+08:00","text":"你有注意到這個事情，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:08.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:12.480000+08:00","text":"那你覺得這些小朋友的個資是從哪裡洩漏出去的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:13.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:17.144000+08:00","text":"當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:18.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:19.666000+08:00","text":"學校端就洩漏出去了嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:19.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:20.386000+08:00","text":"有沒有人負責任？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:22.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:28.748000+08:00","text":"目前假如說以……當然現在還是分管，會由教育部這個中央目的事業主管來查察。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:28.748000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:42.904571+08:00","text":"OK，這個部分我要特別講一下，因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識，他們覺得自己可能從小一入學的時候，資料其實就被賣出去了，被賣出去之後，第二年到小二，六年之後到國中一年級，就是一路被賣、一路被賣、一路被賣，所以臺灣的小朋友都認為他們的個資在小一入學的時候就被賣掉了，這件事情非常的嚴重，我們請主任這邊一定要很認真的去看待這個事情，然後不要讓這樣的事情變成臺灣個資的一個很大的破口跟傷害，可不可以？","quality":0.283},{"speaker":"李主任世德","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:42.904571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:29:57.061143+08:00","text":"是，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:29:57.061143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:30:11.217714+08:00","text":"謝謝，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:30:11.217714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:30:25.374286+08:00","text":"我接下來想請問一下連次長，因為我看到台電這邊不斷在講電是夠的，經濟部也不斷在講電是夠的，可是我發現經濟部長之前講說電是夠的、而且保證2030年之前電都會夠時，他有一個前提是說目前所有的計畫都會按照計畫在進行，是這樣的一個情況嗎？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:30:25.374286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:30:39.530857+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:30:39.530857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:30:53.687429+08:00","text":"所以所謂的不缺電是有很大的一個但書，可是這個但書能不能達到，我其實是有一些疑慮的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:30:53.687429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:31:07.844000+08:00","text":"我這邊直接講一個狀態，台電的副總前幾天針對特定媒體受訪的時候表示說，未來十年內，他講到2033年，未來十年內臺灣大概要增加1,151萬千瓦的電，這個數字有沒有錯？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:31:07.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:31:21.060000+08:00","text":"這我要確認，因為我們能源署有推估，針對整個用電需求量，如果把AI或半導體相關的投資進來會成長多少，那時候是有成長差不多2.5到2.8左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:31:21.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:31:37.634000+08:00","text":"OK，那麼台電這邊提出此說法的時候，就說是因為半導體跟AI需要，所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的用電，跟你講的數字是符合的。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:31:38.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:32:01.931000+08:00","text":"那麼在1,151萬千瓦這個部分，我們回推，因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%，那我就回推，現在我們的負載量大概在5,755萬千瓦到3,836萬千瓦之間，我查了昨天的一個數字，確實也差不多在三千多萬千瓦，確實是符合這個狀態。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:32:03.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:32:11.798000+08:00","text":"我這邊就再回去看了一下台電發言人這邊講出來的情況，他說我們今年再生能源的比例會占到12.1%，是這樣子的數字嗎？對。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:32:11.798000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:32:27.949000+08:00","text":"那我再往回推的時候就發現，我們現在再生能源的發電量大概落在690萬到460萬千瓦之間，這數字都對嗎？","quality":0.146},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:32:27.949000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:32:44.100000+08:00","text":"我是按照你們給的數字去往回推的，然後我覺得台電這邊又講說未來十年我們每一年至少會產生200萬千瓦到300萬千瓦的再生能源，這個數字也是你們的數字嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:32:44.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:32:46.945000+08:00","text":"未來十年再生能源的部分，我們現在推估，太陽光電如果從現在到2033年的話應該會增加到4GW，然後離岸風電應該會……","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:32:55.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:02.783000+08:00","text":"因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字，我看到的這個數字裡頭其實一直在玩文字遊戲，為什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:02.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:25.378000+08:00","text":"因為它直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1,786萬千瓦，然後我們再生能源這邊就可以每年多產生200萬到300萬千瓦，如果這樣算起來，我們光是再生能源的部分就可以cover掉我們未來十年要增加的1,151萬千瓦，你知道嗎？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:25.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:31.380000+08:00","text":"不只我們大型機組夠，我們再生能源就可以遠遠的cover掉我們未來十年要增加的部分。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:34.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:35.784000+08:00","text":"這個是裝置容量……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:36.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:38.185000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，它講的是負載量。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:39.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:41.306000+08:00","text":"這個是裝置容量，還要再打折。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:41.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:49.409000+08:00","text":"OK，如果是裝置容量，我就覺得台電跟經濟部一直在玩一個文字遊戲，因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:49.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:50.650000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:50.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:52.570000+08:00","text":"這個部分到底出來的是多少？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:53.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:53.791000+08:00","text":"所以你說這個1,151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:54.291000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:56.576714+08:00","text":"這個應該是需求量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:56.876714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:33:58.305286+08:00","text":"是需求量嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:33:58.605286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:34:01.176714+08:00","text":"底下這兩個是裝置量……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:34:01.476714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:34:05.476714+08:00","text":"所以你說200萬、300萬千瓦都是裝置容量？","quality":0},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:34:05.776714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:34:20.919571+08:00","text":"底下這兩個應該是裝置容量，委員，我們把這個詳細數字，目前2025到2030、2030到2040年這些相關的，我們有一個完整的規劃，再把它送到委員辦公室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:34:21.219571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:34:49.505286+08:00","text":"次長，你給我一個很完整狀態的資料，包括接下來這十年我們電力有哪些、怎麼樣增加、然後減少哪些部分，因為如果按照台電的說法，經濟部長也說我們電力這麼充沛的時候，就不會跟我們講說新竹以北所有的算力中心都不予通過，你知道嗎？","quality":0.01},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:34:49.805286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:34:55.233857+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我覺得它是有很大的一個衝突。","quality":0.053},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:34:55.533857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:04.391000+08:00","text":"次長，你給我一個很完整的資料，我們對於電的部分其實是非常非常擔憂的。","quality":0.032},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:04.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:14.405286+08:00","text":"我們把我們的需求量、我們的設置到時候會產生多少、然後減去多少、會新增了多少……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:14.705286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:24.419571+08:00","text":"然後你給我一個實際發電量，因為我覺得台電現在每次都用裝置容量來忽悠大家。","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:24.719571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:31.576714+08:00","text":"好，我們給委員的是實際的發電量，然後我們把它送給委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:31.876714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:33.876714+08:00","text":"多久給本辦公室？","quality":0},{"speaker":"連次長錦漳","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:34.176714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:36.176714+08:00","text":"我們一個禮拜內。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"鄭委員正鈐","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:36.476714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:38.762429+08:00","text":"一個禮拜內？好。謝謝。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席（鄭委員正鈐代）","start":"2024-11-14T11:35:39.062429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-14T11:35:43.348143+08:00","text":"我們接下來請呂玉玲委員質詢。謝謝。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1004,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時24分）主席好，我想請經濟部的連次長、國發會彭副主委，還有個資保護委員會籌備處的李主任。"],["主席：連次長、彭副主委、李主任。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長好。我首先問一下李主任好了，次長的部分，我最後再來請教。","有關2022年底發生2,300萬筆國人戶政資料外洩案，請問你有沒有掌握這件事情？"],["李主任世德：在之前的……應該說……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你要推給國發會嗎？"],["李主任世德：不是，就是之前的一些資訊我們有……當然現在還是有去掌握。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你有掌握嘛！"],["李主任世德：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那我想問一下，在這個案子當中涉及資料外洩事件的其實是內政部，卻一再對外否認有相關的事情，但是內政部這個說法其實已經被調查局資安站這邊直接打臉，調查局資安站在這邊的時候直接表示臺灣這位鄭姓工程師花了15萬元去買的那2,300萬筆的資料確實是臺灣的戶政資料，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["李主任世德：是，那個部分的話，媒體也有報導。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。那我想請問一下，針對這一個部分，在洩漏個資的嫌疑人方面，坦白說，在民間只要有洩漏個資的時候，一般就會被處罰，對不對？在這一次有很多委員提案，可是我看到我們籌備處這邊的回應基本上都是希望等到我們主管機關明年成立之後再來做進一步的研議，對不對？"],["李主任世德：明年8月11日以前……"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，這個情況我就覺得很混亂，現在立法委員要提這個案子，可是你們這邊也希望說能夠等到明年8月1號之後再來大幅的調整，是這樣的一個情況嗎？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，現在我們籌備處的任務是要讓這一個個資法的主管機關──個人資料保護委員會生出來……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，那我這邊要特別提到一個點，因為目前針對一般的民間人士如果洩漏個資，很容易就會被處罰，可是政府部門洩漏個資好像只要否認就沒事，你有沒有發現？所以說在明年8月1號之後，你要大幅地來研議、修這個部分的時候，公部門如果洩漏個資的部分，你們會不會把處罰也放進去？"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，未來的監管的話，就是公務機關跟非公務機關的統籌性監管的會朝這個方向，這部分我們會來列入修法的研議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：都必須要把它列入嘛，對不對？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想這個部分其實很重要，比方說，這個2,300萬筆的個資洩漏出去之後，感覺政府部門只要一直否認，好像就沒有人被懲處，至少我目前看起來是沒有人被懲處，對不對？我們希望之後如果公部門洩漏個資的時候必須要有人被懲處，我覺得這很重要，否則大家都不用負責任。而洩漏個資很大一部分可能都是從公部門出去的，2,300萬筆個資出去的時候，後續會怎麼用，我們都不知道，然後你如果說要等到受損害的時候才去主張、提起損害賠償之訴，那都遙遙無期了。所以我們希望洩漏個資這件事情在公部門當中就需要被處罰，好不好？"],["李主任世德：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：另外有個部分，因為現在有很多同學，他們其實在PTT上面就直接把它給公布出來，他就覺得為什麼他們年紀這麼小，然後他們的個資一樣被洩漏？主任知不知道這件事情？"],["李主任世德：新聞之前有報導。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你有注意到這個事情，對不對？那你覺得這些小朋友的個資是從哪裡洩漏出去的？"],["李主任世德：當然有可能是在學校端就有把這個資訊……"],["鄭委員正鈐：學校端就洩漏出去了嘛！有沒有人負責任？"],["李主任世德：目前假如說以……當然現在還是分管，會由教育部這個中央目的事業主管來查察。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分我要特別講一下，因為現在連小朋友都有個資的意識，他們覺得自己可能從小一入學的時候，資料其實就被賣出去了，被賣出去之後，第二年到小二，六年之後到國中一年級，就是一路被賣、一路被賣、一路被賣，所以臺灣的小朋友都認為他們的個資在小一入學的時候就被賣掉了，這件事情非常的嚴重，我們請主任這邊一定要很認真的去看待這個事情，然後不要讓這樣的事情變成臺灣個資的一個很大的破口跟傷害，可不可以？"],["李主任世德：是，可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，OK。","我接下來想請問一下連次長，因為我看到台電這邊不斷在講電是夠的，經濟部也不斷在講電是夠的，可是我發現經濟部長之前講說電是夠的、而且保證2030年之前電都會夠時，他有一個前提是說目前所有的計畫都會按照計畫在進行，是這樣的一個情況嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣嗎？所以所謂的不缺電是有很大的一個但書，可是這個但書能不能達到，我其實是有一些疑慮的。我這邊直接講一個狀態，台電的副總前幾天針對特定媒體受訪的時候表示說，未來十年內，他講到2033年，未來十年內臺灣大概要增加1,151萬千瓦的電，這個數字有沒有錯？"],["連次長錦漳：這我要確認，因為我們能源署有推估，針對整個用電需求量，如果把AI或半導體相關的投資進來會成長多少，那時候是有成長差不多2.5到2.8左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，那麼台電這邊提出此說法的時候，就說是因為半導體跟AI需要，所以在未來十年大概需要增加這麼多的用電，跟你講的數字是符合的。那麼在1,151萬千瓦這個部分，我們回推，因為他說這個部分大概會增加20%到30%，那我就回推，現在我們的負載量大概在5,755萬千瓦到3,836萬千瓦之間，我查了昨天的一個數字，確實也差不多在三千多萬千瓦，確實是符合這個狀態。我這邊就再回去看了一下台電發言人這邊講出來的情況，他說我們今年再生能源的比例會占到12.1%，是這樣子的數字嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那我再往回推的時候就發現，我們現在再生能源的發電量大概落在690萬到460萬千瓦之間，這數字都對嗎？我是按照你們給的數字去往回推的，然後我覺得台電這邊又講說未來十年我們每一年至少會產生200萬千瓦到300萬千瓦的再生能源，這個數字也是你們的數字嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：未來十年再生能源的部分，我們現在推估，太陽光電如果從現在到2033年的話應該會增加到4GW，然後離岸風電應該會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為台電這邊給的是一個整體的數字，我看到的這個數字裡頭其實一直在玩文字遊戲，為什麼？因為它直接表示說我們大型機組未來十年要增加的量是1,786萬千瓦，然後我們再生能源這邊就可以每年多產生200萬到300萬千瓦，如果這樣算起來，我們光是再生能源的部分就可以cover掉我們未來十年要增加的1,151萬千瓦，你知道嗎？不只我們大型機組夠，我們再生能源就可以遠遠的cover掉我們未來十年要增加的部分。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是裝置容量……"],["鄭委員正鈐：不是、不是，它講的是負載量。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是裝置容量，還要再打折。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，如果是裝置容量，我就覺得台電跟經濟部一直在玩一個文字遊戲，因為裝置容量這邊會有一個容量因素的部分。"],["連次長錦漳：對、對、對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這個部分到底出來的是多少？所以你說這個1,151萬千瓦是裝置容量嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：這個應該是需求量。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是需求量嘛！"],["連次長錦漳：底下這兩個是裝置量……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你說200萬、300萬千瓦都是裝置容量？"],["連次長錦漳：底下這兩個應該是裝置容量，委員，我們把這個詳細數字，目前2025到2030、2030到2040年這些相關的，我們有一個完整的規劃，再把它送到委員辦公室。"],["鄭委員正鈐：次長，你給我一個很完整狀態的資料，包括接下來這十年我們電力有哪些、怎麼樣增加、然後減少哪些部分，因為如果按照台電的說法，經濟部長也說我們電力這麼充沛的時候，就不會跟我們講說新竹以北所有的算力中心都不予通過，你知道嗎？所以這個部分我覺得它是有很大的一個衝突。次長，你給我一個很完整的資料，我們對於電的部分其實是非常非常擔憂的。"],["連次長錦漳：我們把我們的需求量、我們的設置到時候會產生多少、然後減去多少、會新增了多少……"],["鄭委員正鈐：然後你給我一個實際發電量，因為我覺得台電現在每次都用裝置容量來忽悠大家。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們給委員的是實際的發電量，然後我們把它送給委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：多久給本辦公室？"],["連次長錦漳：我們一個禮拜內。"],["鄭委員正鈐：一個禮拜內？好。謝謝。"],["主席（鄭委員正鈐代）：我們接下來請呂玉玲委員質詢。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-13","speakers":["呂玉玲","鄭正鈐","陳玉珍","許宇甄","徐巧芯","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳超明","黃國昌","黃健豪","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","謝衣鳯","麥玉珍","林岱樺","張嘉郡"],"page_start":101,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"1139901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查：(一)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「再生能源發展條例第七條、第九條及第十一條條文\n修正草案」案、(二)本院委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(三)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條及第十三條條文修正草案」案、(四)本\n院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「再生能源發展條例第十九條之一及第二十一條條文修正草案」案、(五)\n本院委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「再生能源發展條例第三條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；二、審查：\n(一)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員賴士葆\n等17人擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本\n院委員邱志偉等 22 人擬具「個人資料保護法第二十一條、第二十九條及第三十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員賴瑞隆等18人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(五)本院台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「個人資料保護法第四十七條、第四十八條及第四十九條條文修正草案」案、\n(六)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「個人資料保護法部分條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員許宇甄等\n22人擬具「個人資料保護法第六條條文修正草案」案（詢答）；三、審查：(一)本院委員陳亭妃\n等16人擬具「離島建設條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員鄭天財等22人擬具「離\n島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「離島建設條例增訂第\n十三條之一及第十三條之二條文草案」案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等17人擬具「離島建設條例增訂\n第十八條之一條文草案」案、(五)本院委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「離島建設條例第二條及第十五條\n之一條文修正草案」案、(六)本院委員陳瑩等18人擬具「離島建設條例第十三條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1139901_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}