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去加大去跟他買那這中間可能就會買到一些我們現在可能不需要的東西有可能啦有可能那所以因為總裁您是這個在我們金融界講話一言九鼎你這樣講話今天整個媒體都震動了到底要買什麼應該評估說到底哪一些東西是應該買然後沒有去買的我們可以建議可以買這些我覺得這樣子的發言可能比較"},{"start":89.2,"end":114.786,"text":"我想委員講的也沒有錯不過我們只是說拋出這個議題而已我們也沒有就是說政府非這樣子不可不是啦因為你也是政府代表嘛你不能說我拋出一下政府討論看看然後如果沒有就沒這回事這也蠻奇怪的第二個你說鼓勵那個台積電到美國去投資然後這個也是平衡貿易順差密差方法但是你知不知道2022年張忠謀講一句話他說在"},{"start":118.747,"end":120.969,"text":"臺積電在美國投資是貴且浪費你有沒有站在臺積電的角度去思考這個問題不過你現在就是說臺積電他就去啦"},{"start":131.515,"end":154.831,"text":"台積電還是去啦去美國啦你是說誇增加嘛現在是說為了要去平衡貿易順差逆差增加投資嘛不過我也沒有說台積電要增加投資啦因為你講說台積電赴美投資現在問題是說要平衡順差逆差所以你講一些解方其中包括去對美的採購以及台積電赴美投資是在這個前提之下去講這些議題嗎我只會說我們的廠方"},{"start":156.832,"end":157.432,"text":"請財政部部長、莊部長"},{"start":188.561,"end":209.073,"text":"市長,請教一下,因為我們今年預估也會超增4000億的稅,但昨天聽說您講說是不會還稅於民,會拿去還債對吧?沒有還稅於民這個規劃,那我們會提早舉債我想請教一下,為什麼前幾年有超增都可以還稅於民,只有今天不可以?今年不可以,差別在哪?沒有前幾年,只有在112年的時候,因為112..."},{"start":212.395,"end":216.179,"text":"一年那個時候歷經這個疫情的一個影響然後我們經濟成長得不錯所以把經濟成長的果實以全民購買所以今年的經濟沒有啦部長今年的經濟成長跟之前一定也是差不多所以才會超徵那麼多稅嘛"},{"start":229.215,"end":251.146,"text":"跟委員報告那個時候歷經的我還是說是疫情的關係是疫情的關係所以才還稅於民是疫情的關係那時候疫情的時候全民其實有部分的產業受到一些衝擊但是我們因為防疫所以你還稅於民的目的是為了要刺激產業應該不是吧那個時候你們當時的行政院長不是這樣子講的喔"},{"start":253.046,"end":263.31,"text":"當初講吧就是說因為經濟有成長所以要講這個果實去跟大家分享沒有去扯到什麼產業受到衝擊這些喔所以同樣的條件整個是在義後經濟的一個那個整體計畫裡面的一項嘛那是一個義後經濟的一個我們有一個整體計畫裡面的一項就是對全民共享這個普發性的一項"},{"start":274.755,"end":294.242,"text":"應該我覺得那時候不是你講的這樣那時候說還稅於民是因為要把經濟的成長跟全民分享而且這本來就是超真的這本來就是超真的嘛那如果說按照你講的都不用還稅於民的話那你每一年通通都試算錯誤就好了啊然後每一年都超真啊超真就被你們政府決定怎麼用就怎麼用啊"},{"start":295.943,"end":309.73,"text":"因為你已經連續好幾年都超針了所以你認為說因為你預估跟你預估的時收跟你預估的有落差嘛那你們預估每一年都差到那麼幾千億你覺得是正常狀況嗎"},{"start":310.35,"end":330.852,"text":"我跟委員報告在國際間的文書差10%以內是絕對的一斤兩然後在10到20%之間是估計兩所以你覺得很正常就對我不能說很正常但是我們在估計的方式我們更穩定所以你覺得所以明年可能所以未來每一年都有可能會超增因為部長認為說在國際上都是正常現象我想委員不要這樣子"},{"start":331.593,"end":353.088,"text":"你的態度就是這樣嘛。理論上來講,如果部長你認為超徵有問題的話,你就會說好我們可能會經濟或是哪一個部分造成我們超徵,我們去調整。但你不是嘛。你講的就是說國際都這樣啊。所以你理所當然啊。那你如果理所當然的話,那你明年後年大後年通通都會超徵啊。不是嗎?那你剛剛就說國際都這樣嘛。這個都有直播的,大家都有看到嘛。"},{"start":358.411,"end":359.451,"text":"但部長的態度大家都看到了啦"},{"start":384.181,"end":405.554,"text":"就是這樣子啦,超徵4千億都是國際上都是正常狀況所以外界也不要批評財政部財政部已經做得很好了就是這種態度大家都看到部長找時間跟葉委員做溝通好不好謝謝葉言之委員那接著鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在吳思瑤委員吳思瑤"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1590,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時47分）你好，請央行的楊金龍總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：葉委員午安。"],["葉委員元之：總裁好。你有提到因為我們現在對美有順差，要透過跟美國買東西來平衡，請問是要買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們這邊就是建議像能源、農產品、還有軍購……"],["葉委員元之：這是你個人的看法，還是你已經跟政府討論過了？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有，我們……"],["葉委員元之：因為一般我們聽到這個，都覺得有點本末倒置，通常我們買東西，是有需求才會買嘛！沒有是為了要平衡順差才去買的嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["葉委員元之：你這樣是不是等於有亂花錢，這樣的建議你覺得適當嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想第一個，我們臺灣的進口，譬如像能源是我們的進口……"],["葉委員元之：不是，這本來就有在做，那個都是市場機制，就是有需要就去買。總裁的意思是說，我們為了要平衡貿易的順差、逆差，所以我們要特別去加大去跟他買，這中間可能就會買到一些我們現在可能不需要的東西。"],["楊總裁金龍：有可能。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！總裁在我們金融界講話一言九鼎，你今天這樣講，整個媒體都震動了，到底要買什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：應該評估到底哪些東西應該買，然後沒有去買的，我們可以建議買這些，我覺得這樣子的發言比較……"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員講的也沒有錯，不過我們只是拋出這個議題而已，我們也沒有說政府非這樣不可。"],["葉委員元之：不是啦！因為你也是政府代表嘛！你不能說我拋出一下，政府討論看看，如果沒有就沒這回事，這也滿奇怪的。第二個你說鼓勵台積電到美國去投資，這也是平衡貿易順差、逆差的方法。但是你知不知道，2022年張忠謀講一句話，他說台積電在美國投資貴且浪費，不知道你有沒有站在台積電的角度去思考這個問題？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過現在台積電還是去啦！"],["葉委員元之：你是說增加嘛！現在是說為了要去平衡貿易增加投資嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我也沒有說台積電要增加投資啦！"],["葉委員元之：因為你說台積電赴美投資，問題是要平衡順差、逆差，所以你講一些解方，其中包括對美的採購，以及台積電赴美投資，是在這個前提之下你講這個議題嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：我只是說，我們的廠商……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得尊重台積電啦，好不好？政府不要去引導台積電到底應該做什麼事情，畢竟是我們的護國神山。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我剛剛沒有說台積電要持續去那邊投資，我只是說我們的廠商可以考慮到美國去投資。"],["葉委員元之：OK，好，總裁謝謝。麻煩請財政部部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：請教一下，我們今年預估也會超徵4,000億的稅，但是昨天聽說你講不會還稅於民，會拿去還債對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有還稅於民這個規劃，我們會減少舉債、增加還債。"],["葉委員元之：我想請教一下，為什麼前幾年有超徵都可以還稅於民，只有今年不可以，差別在哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有前幾年……"],["葉委員元之：前幾年有啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：只有112年的時候，因為111年歷經疫情的影響，然後我們經濟成長得不錯，所以把經濟成長的果實與全民共享……"],["葉委員元之：所以今年的經濟……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以就普發6,000元。"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！部長，今年的經濟成長跟之前一定也是差不多，所以才會超徵那麼多稅嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，那時候歷經……"],["葉委員元之：所以這是疫情的關係……"],["莊部長翠雲：我還是說明因為那一年的關係，所以把經濟成長成果跟全民分享。"],["葉委員元之：是疫情的關係，所以才還稅於民？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["葉委員元之：是疫情的關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：疫情的時候全民其實有部分的產業受到一些衝擊，但是我們因為防疫做得很好，使得經濟成長好……"],["葉委員元之：所以你還稅於民的目的是為了要刺激產業，應該不是吧？你們當時的行政院院長不是這樣講的，當初的講法就是說因為經濟有成長，所以要將這個果實去跟大家分享。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！全民共享。"],["葉委員元之：沒有去扯到什麼產業受到衝擊這些喔！所以同樣的條件……"],["莊部長翠雲：這是整個當時疫後經濟整體計畫裡面的一項，那是一個疫後經濟，我們有一個整體計畫裡面的一項，就是對全民共享普發現金。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得那時候不是你講的這樣，那時候說還稅於民是因為要把經濟的成長跟全民分享，因為這本來就是超徵的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["葉委員元之：這本來就是超徵的嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：就是全民共享普發現金。"],["葉委員元之：如果說按照你講的都不用還稅於民的話，那你每一年統統都試算錯誤就好了，然後每年都超徵，超徵就被你們政府決定怎麼用就怎麼用。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，沒有什麼超徵……"],["葉委員元之：因為你已經連續好幾年都超徵了……"],["莊部長翠雲：因為稅的每一塊錢都是依法課徵的……"],["葉委員元之：實收跟你預估的有落差嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有落差。"],["葉委員元之：那你們預估每一年都差到幾千億，你認為是正常狀況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，在國際間的文書，差10%以內是絕對的精良，在10%至20%之間是估算良好……"],["葉委員元之：所以你覺得很正常就對了。"],["莊部長翠雲：我不能說很正常……"],["葉委員元之：那你扯國際幹嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是我們現在估計的方式，我們……"],["葉委員元之：所以明年可能……"],["莊部長翠雲：我只是把國際上的……"],["葉委員元之：所以未來每一年都有可能會超徵，因為部長認為這在國際上都是正常現象。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員不要這樣子……"],["葉委員元之：你的詢答態度就這樣嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：我只是說國際上的……"],["葉委員元之：理論上來講，如果部長認為超徵有問題的話，你就會說我們可能會精進，或是哪一個部分造成超徵我們去調整，但你不是嘛！你講的就是說國際都這樣啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我不是說國際都……"],["葉委員元之：所以你理所當然啊！你如果理所當然的話，那明年、後年、大後年統統都會超徵，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我有說我們估算的方式也要精進……"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛就說國際都這樣嘛！這個都有直播的，大家都有看到嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是國際都這樣，是說國際的文書都……"],["葉委員元之：你說正常，你剛剛說正常，所以以後這樣做都是正常。"],["莊部長翠雲：我說正常嗎？"],["葉委員元之：你說正常。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["葉委員元之：還可以講嗎？"],["主席：超過了很多時間，我想部長要找個時間跟葉委員充分的溝通，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是的，沒問題。"],["主席：因為葉委員這個議題事實上相當的好。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！謝謝召委，但部長的態度大家都看到了，就是這樣子啦！超徵4,000億在國際上都是正常狀況，所以外界也不要批評財政部，財政部已經做得很好了……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是照國際上……"],["葉委員元之：就是這種態度，大家都看到了。"],["莊部長翠雲：不是這樣的一個說法，不是這樣的……"],["主席：部長找時間跟葉委員溝通好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝葉元之委員。","接著鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤委員，吳思瑤委員不在。","涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員不在。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員，黃健豪委員不在。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","羅智強委員、羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員，張啓楷委員不在。","王世堅委員、王世堅委員，王世堅委員不在。","今天登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決議：一、報告、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會在一週內以書面答復，委員另外要求期限者從其所定；委員王世堅、何欣純、邱志偉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。三、中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分暨中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關中央銀行（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）預算案，均另擇期繼續審查；本日會議委員另有相關的預算提案，請於11月20日星期三中午12時以前，逕送財政委員會議事人員收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":256,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-8","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","羅明才","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳玉珍","黃國昌","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","麥玉珍","葉元之","王世堅","何欣純","邱志偉"],"page_start":173,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍、財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「美\n國新任總統的貿易政策對台灣經濟與金融穩定之可能影響與對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案：行政院歲入預算有關中央銀行股息紅利繳庫部分\n（僅詢答）；三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於中央銀行\n（含中央造幣廠、中央印製廠）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310002_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}