{"error":false,"id":["156957"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":156957,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/156957","日期":"2024-11-14","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-14T13:11:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-14T13:18:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/978646e8c8251f3b008b19763a115309fd7b6b5cb373b4ddea15901506589ece0b16ca848615eb905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:11:34 - 13:18:46","會議時間":"2024-11-14T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案。\n二、邀請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n三、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)(僅詢答)\n四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案。(僅詢答)\n【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.01284375,"end":36.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":36.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.03784375,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.38784375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.619718750000004,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.22721875,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.969718750000006,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.03721875,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.259718750000005,"end":54.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.50346875,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.094093750000006,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.705343750000004,"end":63.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.055343750000006,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.33346875,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.36159375,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.68221875,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.46659375,"end":76.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.17096875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.09471875,"end":78.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.27971875,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.05971875,"end":92.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.10159375,"end":90.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.60721875,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.10471875,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":117.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.22784375,"end":125.12534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.24471875,"end":117.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.12534375000001,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.37846875000001,"end":130.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.06971875000002,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.26784375,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.68534375000002,"end":140.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.58346875,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.63784375,"end":158.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.13409375,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.16659375,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.50409375,"end":162.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.85784375,"end":169.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.00034375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.62784375,"end":178.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.78784375,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.01534375,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.91159375,"end":199.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.12221875,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.64096875,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.18471875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.65659375,"end":212.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.00659375,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.38846875000002,"end":227.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.26971875,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.69096875000002,"end":231.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.80909375000002,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.94409375,"end":232.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.96096875,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.02409375000002,"end":236.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.12471875000003,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.78284375,"end":239.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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,{"start":209.304,"end":235.463,"text":"應該還是會減少的。會減少?確定?你確定齁?好那我想問一下齁台電如果未來齁因為和能源配比的變化齁產生碳費不管是增加減少請問一下他是會轉嫁給消費者嗎?不會因為這個比例很低啦。比例很低?因為他不到5億啊。所以他不會因為這個理由要課增碳費之後就漲電價?不會齁?也不會造成也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎?不會?"},{"start":240.632,"end":257.342,"text":"因應虧損當然是因為發電成本增加它就會造成因應虧損嘛我們現在講的是成本的部分嘛會不會因為碳費這個成本增加了所以它把電費轉嫁提高然後轉嫁給消費者有沒有可能造成這個狀況不會因為它佔它的這個比例非常的低啦"},{"start":257.822,"end":259.684,"text":"中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":275.382,"end":276.823,"text":"三、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案關於環境部部主管預算"},{"start":295.253,"end":316.992,"text":"要用什麼方式?這個是這個中研院的專業啦。他可能也是燃燒天然氣嘛,也是燃煤嘛。報告委員他是用那個LNG去...那他在維持這個高溫的過程當中有沒有可能會排出二氧化碳?當然會。也會嘛。所以實際上綠能不是說完全不會排二氧化碳啦,他也是會排二氧化碳。"},{"start":318.133,"end":335.727,"text":"所以你們在預...那個維持700到900其實就是二氧化碳就是會排嘛所以你們在預估所謂的會不會增加碳費或者是碳排你不能夠只算它純粹它發電你應該要把它整個過程通話算進去嘛不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排嘛沒錯吧"},{"start":336.067,"end":339.75,"text":"我只是舉這個例子就是說其實綠能它不是完全沒有碳排的因為大家一般會以為說只要是綠能就沒有碳排但其實不是"},{"start":361.506,"end":377.146,"text":"還是會有還是會有然後再跟你請教一下因為我們現在算那個碳費啊必須要外面減核嘛對不對要減核嘛那現在19萬企業裡面大概只有是15家有這個減核能力是不是減核來減核那個"},{"start":377.526,"end":383.029,"text":"那個是他的排放量要經過這個查驗證明嗎?只有15家。那我們這個人力應該是不夠啦。不夠啦。那夠!確定?15家就夠了?因為他檢核的過程當中查驗就要三個月的時間耶。"},{"start":395.216,"end":395.236,"text":"好,謝謝。"},{"start":428.205,"end":429.871,"text":"謝謝葉元芝委員接下來請劉建國委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2004,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時11分）請環境部。"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我想請教一下，根據環境部的資料，你們有一份資料裡面有550筆碳排量，我特別去看了一下，前10名有7名都是電力供應業，電力供應業大概占了總排量36.45%，這資料應該是正確的嘛？是你們提供的。"],["彭部長啓明：前10名是電力業嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，那個是……"],["彭部長啓明：那個是工廠，你說的是廠，不是公司。"],["葉委員元之：工廠，好。我想問一下，因為裡面很多是電力供應業。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：請問在電力供應業要繳碳費嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：要扣掉他給別人用的，他自身的或是輸配電的他自己要付。"],["葉委員元之：他要付嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：因為他也有產生二氧化碳，所以要付碳費。"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是他的比例不高，大概7、8%左右。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼？怎麼算？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們有一套算法，例如台電產生1億噸的排碳量左右，可是他自己大概只有不到1,000萬噸左右。"],["葉委員元之：那剩下的是誰付？"],["彭部長啓明：剩下是我們使用者。"],["葉委員元之：使用者來付？為什麼台電造成二氧化碳，卻是使用者來付？"],["彭部長啓明：就是使用者用了這個碳排。"],["葉委員元之：當然啊，一般工廠生產東西所製造出來的碳費也是由消費者買單嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我們請署長解釋一下。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，當時在討論氣候變遷因應法的時候，有關碳費的徵收，對於電力的使用，當時立法院討論的時候就是由使用電力的一方，譬如這些工廠會用到電，所以碳費就由工廠端來負擔，而不是由電力發電端，不然如果兩邊都算的話，就會重複計算。但是如果像……"],["葉委員元之：可是如果一般的工廠生產東西，有排二氧化碳的話，是工廠付碳費，還是終端消費者付碳費？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：是工廠，而且是……"],["彭部長啓明：工廠。"],["葉委員元之：工廠嘛，所以只有台電特別，台電是由消費者來付碳費，台電是……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：只有會被收到碳費的大工廠才會要負擔碳費。"],["葉委員元之：我知道。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：一般的中小企業、服務業、民生都不會被收到碳費。"],["葉委員元之：不是消費者付，是只要生產當中有排出二氧化碳，他就要付碳費，一般的工廠是這樣，沒錯吧？台電的話是由使用者來付碳費，他只要負擔一部分，剛剛詢答是這樣，沒錯吧？問題很簡單嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：不要講那麼複雜。我想問明年台電大概要繳多少碳費？"],["彭部長啓明：他們其實會很努力，目前我們估應該是5億以下。"],["葉委員元之：5億以下，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：5億以下，好，沒關係。因為明年就非核家園，核電退出，那二氧化碳會增加嗎？發電過程排放二氧化碳會增加嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：目前我所掌握的數據，我們綠能比例是持續在往上走，所以排碳係數是逐步往下走當中。"],["葉委員元之：所以明年非核家園以後，因為綠能的增加，所以台電要負擔的碳費會減少，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：台電負擔的電費……"],["葉委員元之：你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：基本上不會減太多，因為目前來講……"],["葉委員元之：不會減太多，那到底是會減，還是會增加？不會減太多是減還增？"],["彭部長啓明：應該還是會減少的，因為……"],["葉委員元之：會減少，確定？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：你確定喔？好，那我想問一下，台電如果未來因為能源配比的變化產生碳費，不管是增加、減少，請問一下它會轉嫁給消費者嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，因為這個比例很低。"],["葉委員元之：比例很低。"],["彭部長啓明：因為不到5億。"],["葉委員元之：所以它不會因為這個課徵碳費的理由而漲電價？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["葉委員元之：也不會造成所謂的虧損嗎？不會？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，虧損是自己營運的虧損。"],["葉委員元之：確定？確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：營運虧損當然是因為發電成本增加而造成營運的虧損，我們現在講的是成本的部分，會不會因為碳費的成本增加，所以把電費提高，轉嫁給消費者？有沒有可能造成這個狀況？不會？"],["彭部長啓明：不會，因為這個占它的比例非常的低。"],["葉委員元之：非常低，你確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：我這邊要指出另外一個問題，你剛剛講說因為還有綠能，所以可以cover到一些排碳的，因為綠能會cover到核電，所以不會增加碳排。可是你知道譬如說中研院現在在發展氫能，中研院不是跟台電合作，說他們用去碳燃氫發電。"],["彭部長啓明：是。"],["葉委員元之：這個東西也不會有二氧化碳。可是學者指出，你要去碳燃氫，要能夠甲烷熱分裂的話，是要在高溫700度到900度的狀況下，請問一下你要用什麼方式讓高溫維持在700度到900度？要用什麼方式？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是中研院的專業。"],["葉委員元之：它可能也是燃燒天然氣，也是燃媒嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，它是用LNG去做催化劑之後……"],["葉委員元之：那它在維持高溫的過程當中，有沒有可能會排出二氧化碳？"],["彭部長啓明：當然會。"],["葉委員元之：也會嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以實際上綠能不是完全不會排二氧化碳，它也是會排二氧化碳。"],["彭部長啓明：比較少。"],["葉委員元之：維持在700到900度的過程中，其實二氧化碳就是會排嘛，所以你們在預估所謂會不會增加碳費或者碳排，你不能只算它純粹發電，應該要把整個過程都算進去，不是說綠能就完全沒有碳排，沒錯吧？"],["彭部長啓明：很低，相對的低很多。"],["葉委員元之：這個也都要算進去，因為剛剛感覺部長這一塊沒有精算過，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實整個去碳燃氫有它的算法邏輯，像目前我們看他們的計畫，到2028年只有5MW的發電量，所以相對比較少。"],["葉委員元之：我只是舉這個例子，就是說其實綠能不是完全沒有碳排的，大家一般會以為只要綠能就完全沒有碳排，但其實不是，還是會有。"],["彭部長啓明：幾乎是非常的低，非常的低。"],["葉委員元之：還是會有。再跟你請教一下，我們現在算碳費必須要外面檢核，對不對？現在19萬企業裡面，大概只有15家有檢核能力，是不是？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：那個是它的排放量要經過查驗機構的查驗。"],["葉委員元之：查驗證明嘛，只有15家，那我們的人力應該是不夠啦！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：夠，因為……"],["葉委員元之：不夠啦，那……"],["彭部長啓明：夠。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：夠。"],["葉委員元之：確定？15家就夠了？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：確定，因為這個制度已經實施很久。"],["葉委員元之：因為檢核的過程當中，查驗就要3個月的時間。"],["彭部長啓明：不會，報告委員，其實現在的人力150人左右，15家公司，我們有推算過每一個人的量能是多少，因為每一個查驗1個人大概2、3天左右，所以目前是夠。但是唯一一個情況是，如果社會恐慌，我每一個都要去做碳盤查、碳驗證，那就會不夠了，所以基本上現在要做的就是例如說金管會要求、我們要求還有供應鏈要求做就可以了，其他中小企業不需要做。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":348,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","盧縣一","蘇清泉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","林淑芬","洪申翰","黃建賓","涂權吉","林俊憲","陳瑩","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","葉元之","劉建國","楊曜","張雅琳"],"page_start":85,"meetingDate":["2024-11-14"],"gazette_id":"11310001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結報告案2案；二、邀\n請環境部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、審查中華民國 114年度中央政府總預算案關於\n環境部主管預算（公務及基金預算）（僅詢答）；四、審查環境部函送財團法人環境資源研究發\n展基金會等4家財團法人114年度預算書案（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310001_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}