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宣讀上次會議議事錄二 邀請大陸委員會主任委員及交通部次長、交通部觀光署署長就:「赴陸旅遊團停招．決策過程與後續影響評估．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．宣讀完畢接下來我來介紹一下在現場．對不起 馨玉妳說 妳要程序發言嗎"},{"start":2095.987,"end":2096.848,"text":"請新委員做程序發言"},{"start":2109.495,"end":2129.766,"text":"主席各位列席的官員在座各位委員以及我們各位媒體大家好本席在這裡想要針對我們在今天的陸委會的報告還有交通部的報告在昨天本席辦公室在昨天中午以前收到陸委會的報告"},{"start":2130.606,"end":2151.828,"text":"昨天下午下班前收到交通部的報告那本席在這裡發現這樣子實在太慢了今天早上9點的會議那但是報告呢我們的召委是在上個禮拜四就已經發出這個會議通知但是我們的報告卻在禮拜二的"},{"start":2153.208,"end":2178.735,"text":"一個接近中午一個接近下班才送達這個實在是太沒有效率而且行政機關實在是太寬鬆了所以在這裡我也很感慨我第8屆當任立委的時候我發現這個報告不僅早送而且內容是非常的紮實具體"},{"start":2180.502,"end":2198.31,"text":"我們現在發現這個行政單位的報告我們字體越放越大行距越來越寬頁數越來越少內容越來越空泛所以麻煩請讓我講完所以本席在這裡想要建議主席這個是程序問題"},{"start":2202.219,"end":2226.151,"text":"我現在講完,不然你聽我描述完,我的程序是想要提...我現在講重點啊,還沒3分鐘啊,所以我現在講重點,重點就是本席想要建議,想要建議是不是可以我們週一的這個議程,除了週一的議程以外,我們的這個"},{"start":2228.773,"end":2244.429,"text":"週三跟週四的這個議程的專題報告可以週三的可以在週一中午前送達週四的可以在週二中午前送達那也讓我們可以了解行政機關他們要報告的內容"},{"start":2246.952,"end":2267.089,"text":"那如果我隔天一早我就這個要開會結果你前一天到下班前才送來所以你是逼著委員全部要把行程排開那來讀你的報告那所以我們是不是可以請主席可以做出這樣的一個才事"},{"start":2269.67,"end":2272.192,"text":"請列席機關組準備書面資料於113年3月5號下班前送150份至本會"},{"start":2309.132,"end":2326.476,"text":"希望以後各部會能夠儘早來把我們的資料送達到各委員會的辦公室會比較妥當一點好不好我們也請這個議會人員我們會把這個會議記錄給記錄下來希望能夠更早一點可以吧可以可以"},{"start":2336.878,"end":2337.479,"text":"請問在場其他內政委員會委員會面見"},{"start":2348.049,"end":2360.574,"text":"好 等一下我們來休息一下然後讓我們因為 朝委是這樣子啦希望在場的委員們大家彼此互相尊重所以我來詢問一下大家的意見可以嗎 我們休息一下"},{"start":2650.694,"end":2670.075,"text":"好,我們非常謝謝信心委員也提出了這個問題點,的確我們有時候行政單位你們送的這個報告真的實在是太急促,因為你太急促的時候其實你讓委員還有辦公室委員辦公室的助理們要準備資料其實是有一點急促,但是呢我們也"},{"start":2670.936,"end":2691.783,"text":"我們也體恤我們的行政議會議的人員你們要把這個會議資料出去其實你們也要有一點時間所以我們就這樣子我們做一個折衷大家也都同意我們這一個禮拜或兩個禮拜看一下我們的這個行政官員們你們的態度然後後續如果你們還是這樣子的方式來這個因應我們委員會的話那麼我們就會再把此確定的時間把它寫上"},{"start":2700.126,"end":2702.508,"text":"許新穎委員、牛徐廷委員、吳祁銘委員、王美惠委員"},{"start":2724.038,"end":2734.368,"text":"蘇巧惠委員．黃潔委員．李博毅委員．現在我介紹一下一會的官員．大陸委員會主任委員．邱泰山．經濟處處長葉凱平．"},{"start":2750.202,"end":2755.306,"text":"交通部常務次長林國賢觀光署副署長"},{"start":2781.203,"end":2786.405,"text":"好我們現在繼續進行本日議程的報告事項請宣讀宣讀過了好我們接下來就請大陸委員會邱主任委員泰山來報告您今天的報告好像也是很短所以我還是給你4分鐘時間好了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":2812.781,"end":2826.867,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生、大家早成門、貴會邀請就這個赴陸旅遊團的停招、決策過程跟後續影響評估來做專題的報告那我們以下就涉及本會的業務進行"},{"start":2829.068,"end":2842.718,"text":"首先就暫停的這個決策過程呢那因為在疫情的一起呢那為了要守護國內的這個防疫安全呢那交通部呢他就在109年的1月22號跟3月18號跟隨後的這個記者會呢他們也這個喊請這個各旅行商業同業公會轉資所屬會員暫停組團赴陸旅遊"},{"start":2854.326,"end":2857.208,"text":"但是在議後經過跨部會的檢討之後為了要因應我們的防治COVID-19的特別條例在去年的7月1號就公告廢止所以"},{"start":2869.915,"end":2888.911,"text":"行政院就由跨部會主動研商就恢復兩岸觀光旅遊以及放寬入籍人士來台商務交流的相關規劃最後就由陸委會會同交通部在去年的8月24號對外公布我們依對等的原則"},{"start":2890.171,"end":2908.583,"text":"來處理恢復兩岸團體旅遊的事項上述規劃在政策上調整為只要陸方開放陸客旅行團來台我方將同步開放旅行社、組團、附陸主要考量疫情之前108年兩岸觀光消費已出現66億元逆渣"},{"start":2913.886,"end":2914.246,"text":"主席"},{"start":2937.875,"end":2962.867,"text":"去年11月交通部原本有規劃在今年春節前要宣布恢復赴陸旅遊的這樣的一個具體內容但是因為中國大陸契會就陸客旅行團來台進行安排日前又片面的宣布要改變503航路等一些作為考量整體的情勢不利於我國家利益以及陸方"},{"start":2963.667,"end":2983.702,"text":"事實上在過去這一年多又有新的相關的法制也造成國人赴陸會有人身安全風險的增加所以在沒有有效的機制或者是雙方的這樣的一個協商之下交通部就在2月7號對外宣布至3月1號起暫停來執行"},{"start":2987.325,"end":3000.804,"text":"那後續的推動跟影響評估那政府當然歡迎這個兩岸對等的這個開放觀光而非我單方面的解禁那關鍵的在兩岸同時做出這樣的一個開放那我們很遺憾的"},{"start":3002.486,"end":3026.691,"text":"看到中國大陸已經恢復他們的旅行社跟線上的旅遊也就是說中國公民可以出境旅遊但是總共有138個國家也包括港澳但是就是沒有台灣並沒有納入到今天為止還沒有納入名單此外我們正為了要釋出善意從去年的9月以後我們就開放第三地的"},{"start":3027.171,"end":3027.912,"text":"以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":3050.342,"end":3056.697,"text":"好 非常謝謝我們的邱主委的報告繼續我們要請這個交通部林常務次長國賢來報告一樣時間4分鐘時間 謝謝"},{"start":3061.86,"end":3078.213,"text":"謝謝召委主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天應邀到貴委員會就赴陸旅遊團停招、決策過程跟後續影響評估進行報告說明如何,敬請各位委員指教有關恢復兩岸旅遊的這個團體旅遊的規劃在兩岸團體旅遊的現況部分"},{"start":3083.497,"end":3106.44,"text":"陸方前一陣子稱因為兩岸關係,所以從108年8月1日起暫停來臺的自由行。疫情後,陸方也分批來恢復138個國家跟港澳出境團體的旅遊,但都沒有包含臺灣,所以目前團體旅遊來臺跟自由行還沒有開放。"},{"start":3107.72,"end":3119.364,"text":"2.以後我們從111年10月13日起開放組團赴國外及接待國外旅行社來臺,不含大陸及港澳地區。從111年11月1日開放港澳入出競團體來臺,"},{"start":3124.966,"end":3142.517,"text":"我方對恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃陸委會在去年8月24日會同交通部、經濟部公布恢復兩岸觀光旅遊及放寬入籍人士來臺商務交流及相關規劃有關恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃我方旅行業者組團互錄應該要依對等原則適度調控赴大陸人士"},{"start":3152.284,"end":3158.996,"text":"自宣布之日起．以一個月為準備期．並看陸方的回應來確定實施的日期"},{"start":3161.623,"end":3183.764,"text":"這個工作一直在準備我們從去年8月24號開始跟相關業者開始溝通是希望以對等循序恢復的方式來開放團客赴大陸的旅遊相關機關事實上準備工作也已經就緒原來交通部是規劃在今年的3月恢復國人互入的團體旅遊"},{"start":3185.715,"end":3203.691,"text":"但是這一段期間我們認為已經釋出善意可是陸方一直沒有開放來台旅遊第二個在這段期間又片面宣布改變M503等航路的運行方式這個是不善意的舉動損害了我國家的利益經過跨部位的協商"},{"start":3204.332,"end":3231.001,"text":"考慮這樣的情勢變更因此做了政策的調整本部觀光署依照權責請旅行業在113年2月7日起暫停來招攬赴陸的旅行團後續考量旅遊市場的實務操作因此我們有設了3個月的緩衝期對已經成團的在3月1日起到5月31日出發之間的都可以出團6月1日以後的"},{"start":3232.002,"end":3239.294,"text":"希望能併3-5月來成團或改往其他地區或國家旅遊或退會保障旅行業及民眾權益"},{"start":3241.754,"end":3261.382,"text":"後續為了推動恢復兩岸的團體旅遊,陸委會在8月14日所公布的相關規劃,事實上是對等循序漸進的,本部後續能配合來執行,這是政府的政策機會改變。但是,如果陸方在這段期間陸續釋出善意的話,我們也不排除提早來進行適當的調整。"},{"start":3265.586,"end":3272.538,"text":"市長不好意思我請你留息一下我覺得你今天報告剛剛我們入會主委的報告都沒有談到一些"},{"start":3273.956,"end":3299.294,"text":"二五零三的航路然後損害國家利益的部分反而是你觀光署次長在這邊宣布國家安全的部分不是您的業務範圍吧所以請你們除非說他們授權你們你們已經是這個但是就我知道你們今天禁止他們來不是因為國家的安全是因為你們的旅遊那個觀光旅行的第幾條來來來"},{"start":3301.596,"end":3301.696,"text":"主席"},{"start":3328.629,"end":3357.808,"text":"好 我們現在進行詢答委員的質詢前呢 原例做幾個 宣告每一位委員發言的時間本會的委員是8分鐘必要的時候我們延長兩分鐘好不好本會委員 非本會委員是8分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記然後臨時提案截止提出時間是10點然後在本會委員詢答完畢之後我們來處理臨時提案然後請問各位在場的同仁們有沒有意見"},{"start":3358.809,"end":3366.513,"text":"好沒有意見我們就開始我們今天的集訓我們請登記第一位的許新穎委員來做發言謝謝好"},{"start":3388.837,"end":3398.402,"text":"主席、在座各位官員、各位委員、各位媒體先進大家好本席有請陸委會邱主委邱主委邱委員好主委好首先本席還是要就剛剛我這個程序發言被民進黨委員打斷的我做個補充"},{"start":3413.646,"end":3433.434,"text":"我第8屆擔任立法委員我看到行政單位的報告都是非常充實的但是呢我們這兩次的會議我發現呢民進黨執政8年以來呢我們這個專案報告的文字呢越放越大字體越放越大行距越來越寬那這個頁數越來越少然後內容越來越空泛"},{"start":3441.892,"end":3444.975,"text":"今天我們陸委會提供的這個報告你有把題目放上去耶"},{"start":3464.744,"end":3470.226,"text":"那為什麼禮拜一的沒有放?今天有放題目禮拜一沒有放題目很明顯就是故意的嘛"},{"start":3485.367,"end":3485.587,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3500.972,"end":3512.743,"text":"禮拜一主要內容在海洋委員會,你沒放題目我只是點到,但今天你的行為就告訴大家你禮拜一故意不放。"},{"start":3518.666,"end":3537.521,"text":"今天我有很認真聽,雖然夜宿很少,但我很認真聽了這個主委的報告我們現在突然間宣布,這個停止組團到大陸去第一個理由,說是逆差,長期以來逆差嘛,那我覺得很好笑"},{"start":3538.462,"end":3562.091,"text":"我們政府民進黨政府執政你既然逆差你為什麼不想辦法去改變這個問題你為什麼不想辦法去邀請大陸團可以過來反而你是忽視還有損害民眾去大陸觀光的權益我們民進黨執政真的很有趣十一住行娛樂"},{"start":3563.531,"end":3564.492,"text":"M503航路運行的改變那也一樣啊"},{"start":3593.393,"end":3610.139,"text":"我們選出來的政府要做什麼?如果他改變,你有去溝通嗎?這就回答有或沒有,你有沒有去溝通?當然有啊,問題是他基於政治上的考量,想要干預到台灣的選舉。那很奇怪,為什麼馬政府時代的時候OK?其實馬政府時代那時候,他們也有一M503的航線。"},{"start":3619.242,"end":3635.958,"text":"那政府的時候他們談一談談好就可以這個他等於這個航線他就沒有沒有這樣改變他就取消啦所以這是不是表示出國民黨執政比民進黨執政能夠有效的溝通能夠為我們民眾帶來權益"},{"start":3638.7,"end":3643.084,"text":"反間諜法反間諜法那我現在要跟大家說很有趣的我們這個"},{"start":3662.264,"end":3683.037,"text":"中國大陸的反間諜法是在去年的7月1號就生效了可是我們政府呢在去年8月24號的時候你就宣布要開放啦奇怪了你那時候宣布要開放的時候你沒有發現反間諜法也生效了嗎現在來說反間諜法有意義嗎這是什麼邏輯神邏輯啊你這是神邏輯啊"},{"start":3687.119,"end":3690.601,"text":"反間諜法在去年7月1日生效民進黨政府在去年8月24日宣布開放那時候為什麼沒有反間諜法的疑慮"},{"start":3713.155,"end":3742.221,"text":"有啊 所以這個我們只能說民進黨執政你想做什麼就做什麼政策反覆好不好 政策反覆你不接受 那我想請問現在我們又有這個禁團令然後講到損害國家利益損害國家利益其實所謂的損害國家利益我不知道這個意思太含混啊"},{"start":3743.978,"end":3772.061,"text":"怎麼樣損害國家利益?我可以回答嗎?對,你可以回答。請簡要的回答。報告召委,我們是不是能夠好好把雙方急問急答?這是立法院職權行使法。你不用教我,現在我請你答你就答。韓院長跟周秘書長都講,雙方是共用這個時間。那我們尊重委員你有三分之二,我總該有三分之一的時間吧。"},{"start":3772.281,"end":3798.605,"text":"沒有這個質詢我沒有我沒有質詢暫停一下暫停時間暫停時間暫停給主席才是所以我不好意思我們希望基於尊重的原則我也希望尊重如果我們委員沒有請您回答的時候他一定會給你時間回答如果不給他時間我們來也是來跟他溝通好不好所以在他們說話當中我們期待不要這樣子我也在"},{"start":3799.165,"end":3802.986,"text":"我們不要打斷人家的說話我們這是最基本的禮貌好不好他現在讓他現在讓你回答你就就他問他問你的問題你回答好嗎好我們來就是針對問題回答第一個你什麼神邏輯第一個你剛剛講到說兩岸的這種協商那馬政府是不是會比較協商這個不是我的問題請站起來我是問說"},{"start":3825.052,"end":3827.094,"text":"我沒給你那麼多時間我已經講了你今天你見別法這是"},{"start":3840.323,"end":3858.679,"text":"你都問我的最少5個題目沒有我剛剛在闡述所以你不要浪費我時間所以反鑑別法這是什麼神邏輯你時間一個7月1號就生效你8月的時候那時候OK現在不OK這都是你民進黨政府在講這第一個第二個忍耐國家利益"},{"start":3858.939,"end":3860.82,"text":"又是怎麼樣損害國家,就這兩個問題,好,給你30秒,請檢答。"},{"start":3878.965,"end":3894.874,"text":"包括這個去年年底都有所以我們當然觀察到他開始對國人在大陸的人身安全開始有一些逮捕各位都知道好幾個人不是 這不要理你 請暫停所以我說法律的制定我們就是觀察他到底怎麼樣在執行對國人的境外風險有多少當然我們經過這半年多的這樣的觀察發覺他的風險提高"},{"start":3906.281,"end":3926.335,"text":"他還制定了保守國家機密法任何人只要談到眾矢不涉及國家安全公務上的機密都會請暫停請暫停第二個你剛剛不是講說侵害我們的利益嗎不是你利益的時間沒有用到我們國內觀光業者如果今天我們單方面過去我們讓他們對方賺了800多億那我們國內的業者要去賺哪裡的錢"},{"start":3930.818,"end":3958.306,"text":"所以我就說嘛之前你為什麼不想辦法你為什麼 喔 請暫停 請暫停我們雙方都有來禮會跟台禮會雙方都表達過我們也讓他的彩線團來台灣的好啦 請暫停你剛剛講喔你叫我回答到底有沒有損害國家利益嘛我就回答你這個問題所以我現在要告訴你啊你現在 你說的要照顧觀光業者因為我剩下兩分鐘你說要照顧觀光業者"},{"start":3958.846,"end":3977.506,"text":"但是你們當初這個公佈就是112年去年8月24號陸委會的新聞稿你就已經講這個規劃你規劃你也沒有說到欸只要什麼什麼你今天只要什麼開放的時間點就是他開放的時間點你就是很含混嘛你就是很含混沒有含混你又不行"},{"start":3981.71,"end":3999.764,"text":"結果你說不行以後你現在又3月1號到5月的又可以那我問你人家已經準備好六七八月基本你應該也知道我們的旅遊旺季絕對是六七八月當你去年一宣布之後你知道業者有多少他們"},{"start":4000.484,"end":4000.804,"text":"那我要問你"},{"start":4021.426,"end":4034.38,"text":"今天我們的題目是你的決策過程跟後續影響評估今天你這個決策下去你有沒有考慮到我們民間的這種損失這個損失你有要賠償他們嗎?"},{"start":4035.922,"end":4041.387,"text":"交通部不是已經回答了嗎?交通部不是已經回答你了嗎?完全沒有提到委員我先告訴你們兩岸條例的儲管機關是我們但是還有目的事業儲管機關目的事業儲管機關 剛剛提到了所以現在我們最明顯快到就是部委會、陸委會"},{"start":4059.804,"end":4075.673,"text":"交通部就找我們觀光署他們怎麼補救的措施啊他剛剛不是報告了嗎所以民間的你要考慮嘛所以你要考慮民間國內的業者啊對啊所以今天民間的應該赴陸大陸"},{"start":4077.734,"end":4078.135,"text":"委員我們的諮詢時間已經到了謝謝"},{"start":4095.635,"end":4117.291,"text":"謝謝信任委員謝謝主委我在這裡強調一下我們希望我們彼此尊重當委員在說話的時候請官員就不要回應因為你們這樣一回應其實第一會打斷委員的思路第二個也會影響到我們收音然後媒體們要拍攝錄影的一些"},{"start":4118.132,"end":4120.973,"text":"第二位蘇巧慧委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席我們請邱三山主委還有我們林次長我們請邱主委還有次長謝謝"},{"start":4147.658,"end":4175.924,"text":"主委好 請邱主委先我們今天的題目其實是這個赴陸旅遊團停招其實就是禁止組團赴中旅遊這件事情對台灣社會想要了解這個前因後果和未來的影響那我在不管是陸委會的報告還是交通部的報告裡面其實都看到大家提到的是兩個原因第一個的話當然是基於平等原則之下的國家利益要平等要對等"},{"start":4176.804,"end":4193.239,"text":"所以如果中國這邊不開台灣這邊當然也就不開不然兩邊產值這個差太多這個不符合國家利益今天如果不是中國放在其他國家我相信我們也是用同樣的道理來面對國家的利益這樣對嗎對這是第一點嘛但是你第二點其實提到的是M503航線的變動是等於是在我們想要它"},{"start":4200.926,"end":4206.513,"text":"開放中國赴中國團之後我們其實本來喔你當時在開的時候你就有加一個但書嘛如果對方有同等善意的話那我們要開嘛當時的決定是這樣子好結果在這個過程當中我自己看嘛大家都可以查新聞嘛包括諾魯斷交嘛"},{"start":4218.588,"end":4245.137,"text":"包括最後這個M503航線變動等於在我的看法是最後一根稻草啦好可是我想問的是說請問陸委會在這個中國觀光業對我開放的態度對我們不平等這是其一M503就是航線變動這是第二這兩個原因哪一個原因是今天台灣不開放附中團的"},{"start":4246.497,"end":4266.365,"text":"比較重要的原因哪一個我想基本上不對等這個是一個基本的原因壓倒的最後一根稻草就是M501所以是前面不對等比較重要還是最後一根稻草比較有用我們是要照顧我們國內業者的利益啊所以你的意義前面那個比較重要"},{"start":4267.827,"end":4269.387,"text":"我認為M503航線的變動其實它是一個看不見的利益我們今天在討論觀光業沒有辦法附中沒有辦法組團附中對對台灣的影響當然很大"},{"start":4294.394,"end":4294.634,"text":"﹚立法院議員"},{"start":4324.494,"end":4325.094,"text":"講到觀光有9次M503只有一次"},{"start":4340.405,"end":4359.599,"text":"現在給你時間 主委M503的變動對台灣的國安、非安影響到底有多大第一個所有M503或者說所有的航線其實都是交通部他們組長的那各位都知道有一個IQ 國際民航組織所有的航線的變動那基本上都涉及到"},{"start":4360.319,"end":4360.459,"text":"主委 這一張圖"},{"start":4375.196,"end":4386.862,"text":"第二點因為他不是只有M503而已他又宣布了三條航線是東西向的W123、W122和W121嘛對那這個都會增加所有的那個是可以從中國機飛機往各個方向飛過來了耶那這專業的部分是啊"},{"start":4391.525,"end":4413.281,"text":"民安局他可以講,甚至涉及到國安,因為我們的國防部他所有的軍機,他都會對應所有增加的這樣的一個航次航班都會影響到,特別是他又不願意按照具有的默契在往前移,所以我們的反制的時間點就會被壓縮"},{"start":4414.002,"end":4414.562,"text":"從2007年的時候那時候是陳水扁總統的時代"},{"start":4440.931,"end":4448.796,"text":"中國就想要設置M503可是那個時候我們是透過外交途徑把它給擋掉了嘛這是2007年是真正擋掉2015年剛剛在說馬英九失敗的時候沒有喔我們是從沒有M503在馬英九總統的時期"},{"start":4458.542,"end":4465.748,"text":"是!對啦!他沒有去協商啦!協商之後是什麼?M-03還是畫啦!只是畫偏一點點!就這樣嘛!但是從無到有!M-03就是在2015年畫下去的啊!好!那現在2018年,我們曾經說中國又要開始片面宣佈要靠近金門,又要把這條線要打開,又要把它再拉過來了。2018年的時候嘛,那我們那時候做什麼?我們是用"},{"start":4482.722,"end":4486.623,"text":"那個時候他們要從就是剛剛說的嘛W123要從中國飛飛機過來台灣那個時候因為時間點剛好是春節包機所以他們有這個東方航空、廈門航空要飛過來所以我們可以用準博的博把它擋回去嘛對不對但現在2024年的現在有飛機要飛過來嗎其實坦白講也沒有啊因為入客根本不來啊"},{"start":4507.228,"end":4507.268,"text":"這條事這麼嚴重"},{"start":4524.141,"end":4549.581,"text":"這麼大的國安事件只是因為他不是因為跟個人相關他是跟我們台灣整體國家相關看不到摸不到但如此做到你立委會怎麼沒有用相同的量能去向國人來解釋M503航線被騙面騙更就是中國再一次把航線圖調出來中國再一次往我們的中線靠近這跟驚嚇海域衝突事件親盟打轟有什麼不一樣"},{"start":4550.982,"end":4555.705,"text":"不是一樣的道理嗎?所以最後一根稻草很重,它不是稻草而已啊!所以中國對台灣的態度到底是什麼?其實應該要看得很清楚,我覺得陸委會這要給我講講啦!好!委員的指教我們會來加強啦!事實上我們在前幾個禮拜的這個例行的記者會,我們大概都有提到是啊!但是我們想說"},{"start":4578.677,"end":4592.342,"text":"關關講得比較多啦這是我的意見請主委參考我認為應該要多講一點看不到摸不到但是守護台灣重要的事情還是應該讓國人了解那接下來我們要講看得到的關關的部分請林次"},{"start":4594.363,"end":4614.914,"text":"我們來講觀光觀光好了剛剛有說我們基於平等的部分順差跟逆差的部分大家都已經清楚了那我想請教我們現在台灣有多少間旅行社如果因為禁止附中團的話那其實受到重大衝擊的應該就是以中國為主要業務的旅行團"},{"start":4615.734,"end":4620.598,"text":"目前旅行社根據觀光署的統計大概4038家那您提到了超過50%以上做大陸旅遊的大概有404家大概10%不到"},{"start":4639.753,"end":4658.523,"text":"10%不到但它的業績、營業額受到的影響你們有評估嗎去應該用2019年估啦2019年疫情前要用疫情前估啦疫情前去是大概805億的消費我們去那他們來是739億好"},{"start":4661.929,"end":4687.815,"text":"市長我是這樣覺得我們守護台灣安全全國一體一制所以大家往這個方向前進但如果受到損害的個人我們當然應該要協助與保障嘛今天是在全體旅遊業者裡面的你說一成對大概一成左右還是不到一成差不多一成左右大概一成左右有受到影響而且他的業務我們是用50%計算表示不是全部嘛對他還跟中南亞、歐洲"},{"start":4690.796,"end":4691.457,"text":"現在我們國家有多少的"},{"start":4707.632,"end":4726.696,"text":"委員會措施可以協助這個業者老實講我現在看到的因為疫情紓困的這個措施已經落日了嘛所以補貼營運負擔薪資員工這些大概都沒有了現在的話是疫後有一個加速擴大吸引國際觀光客方案請問這個在經營附中團的業者可以用到嗎不行吧"},{"start":4729.676,"end":4731.197,"text":"旅行業者他可以做出境跟入境兩邊都可以選擇"},{"start":4746.246,"end":4746.546,"text":"我們跟觀光署來討論"},{"start":4776.55,"end":4776.974,"text":"主席"},{"start":4779.309,"end":4806.359,"text":"謝謝巧惠委員這個就是我剛剛說的交通部和觀光署你們今天好像在這個會議紀錄裡面都沒有談到這個部分你們好像是你們的權責不是你們一樣所以呢剛好巧惠委員提出這個問題你們才做說明以後我們希望你們也把你們的報告按照你們的權責還有按照你們的這個可以怎麼樣解決的問題也寫上來今天交通部觀光署我們都看不到"},{"start":4807.315,"end":4807.875,"text":"有請主委、有請次長,謝謝"},{"start":4834.448,"end":4849.458,"text":"主委早安啊這個先請教你一個問題請問主委是否同意啊兩岸的交流應該要維持對等互利尊重兩岸在談判跟協商的過程中要避免我方讓利更不能熱臉貼冷屁股這樣的敘述你同意嗎"},{"start":4850.859,"end":4866.395,"text":"呃基本上平等互惠應該是一個最基本的原則啦大家都朝這個目標在追求因為我剛剛聽你回答蘇巧慧委員質詢的時候你也講對等是很重要的這一點本席完全同意核先序名第二個問題我想請教一下交通部的次長交通部的次長這個"},{"start":4870.031,"end":4889.481,"text":"去年7月1號開始研議恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊那8月24號是做了對外的公佈依對等的原則對不對也有講對等原則處理兩岸的團體旅遊事務那在你的報告裡也有寫有一個月的準備期嘛對不對這個有沒有錯我跟你做一下先做一下確認沒有問題沒有問題好那再換回主委謝謝"},{"start":4892.349,"end":4917.743,"text":"所以我們今天要談這件事情是這樣因為這個案子一度本來覺得蠻順利的也可以給旅行業多一點的空間但後來突然峰迴路轉那決策中間的反覆其實造成了旅行業很大的一個傷害所以我覺得我們今天在這個這個內政委員會我們當然要提出質詢去了解過程那更重要的是檢討本案的一些疏失有沒有對等我想這是非常重要的一個題目我先請問一下這個"},{"start":4919.364,"end":4922.929,"text":"我們過去陸委會跟對岸溝通的管道有哪些?"},{"start":4924.232,"end":4952.759,"text":"基本上是這樣大概兩岸過去這30幾年來不只是有很多的個案也簽了大概26項的這樣的一個協議那這個協議涵蓋了包括觀光旅遊什麼等等都有那這裡面的協議裡面就建立了一個所謂這個相互溝通的一個機制這機制大概分三個面向第一個平時這個資訊上的提供第二個發生個案上的處理第三個大概政策性的探討"},{"start":4953.619,"end":4956.141,"text":"另外因為我們就觀光的部分我們在北京有所謂的臺旅會臺灣旅行的這些大陸在我們這邊有海旅會"},{"start":4977.378,"end":4980.699,"text":"請問有沒有做具體的溝通?有沒有具體的成果?"},{"start":4992.903,"end":5014.864,"text":"基本上都有透過所謂雙方的這個這個所謂的窗口做了表達什麼樣的窗口是你從你陸委會溝通嗎還是從其他單位溝通就是我剛剛提到了就是所有的協議都有他的所謂的從你陸委會的這個管道我們當然會大概都知道政策當討論完了之後就會有所謂業務執行單位"},{"start":5016.505,"end":5021.47,"text":"我剛剛不是提到嗎?雙方都有幾個管道,包括台旅會。所以是透過台旅會這個管道嗎?還是透過海基會呢?還是透過哪一個管道?您提到了,其實有很多的管道。"},{"start":5038.268,"end":5063.607,"text":"只是協議有協議的那陸委會有沒有掌握這些管道溝通的進度跟成果應該你要掌握嘛對不對因為你等於是整個兩岸主管機關嘛他們會回報對岸的態度包括我們的委員也很熱心啦我們右委員他們也會去大家也會監督什麼所以有管道對不對然後你有掌握嘛我從你剛剛答詢裡面整理出來的答案是這樣對不對我們簡單一點就好啦因為大家時間有限好不好"},{"start":5064.147,"end":5089.495,"text":"那根據交通部的報告因為你8月24號宣布嘛有一個月的準備期間對不對那為什麼要講一個月的準備期間其實就是要看這中間中國大陸對我們有沒有善意的回應嘛這是其中之一這是其中之一對不對那差不多就是一個月9月24號的時候有具體的回應嗎也就是從他們的各種管道你剛剛講的因為你有掌握嘛各種管道裡面是有得到說他們的人也會對等開放嗎有得到這樣的回覆嗎"},{"start":5090.015,"end":5117.711,"text":"基本上他們是要認為說現在這個時間點不願意談這個問題所以你其實得到的是不宜嘛 對不對不是 不願意在這個時間點上面那我想主要應該涉及到他們內部的整體政治情勢的評估啦我們的揣測啦那問題就來了嘛剛剛我們講說兩岸的談判跟協商不能單方面讓利嘛尤其是不能我們讓利嘛因為要對等尊重嘛那9月的時候其實你就已經掌握對方沒有打算要開"},{"start":5118.692,"end":5131.302,"text":"那為什麼不再早一點就這個政策我們就喊停呢他有沒有打算我不曉得但是他是現在沒有要談這個議題他說沒有要談這個議題對那為什麼是因為雙方有政治的情勢我們有選舉嘛"},{"start":5134.344,"end":5149.39,"text":"阿他們有他們內部的問題嗎?所以其實9月24號沒有明確的回覆我現在修正可以對不對?沒有明確的回覆好你就繼續但是阿10月25的時候阿國台辦的這個朱鳳聯開的記者會嘛因為這個我們的交通部長王國才說"},{"start":5150.83,"end":5164.662,"text":"這個按照評估啊今年大概是沒有忘了大陸團客是不會來了那要看明年的機會那國台辦直接就直接也就嗆了說這個有僵局僵局就是因為民進黨執政對不對這個當然是當然是對我們來講是很不禮貌嘛對不對但是這個客觀上來說他其實釋出了一個訊號嘛什麼樣的訊號就是不愉快嘛"},{"start":5173.468,"end":5193.92,"text":"你剛剛講從8月到9月對不對8月到9月的時候是不明確可是10月25我覺得這是不友善喔人家已經有點欺負我們了對不對對不對民進黨喜歡講說對方是欺負我們對不對現在10月25號就已經很明確的訊息說他對這個事情是很不滿意的是負面的東西訊息出來的時候那為什麼那個時候我們沒有喊停呢"},{"start":5195.066,"end":5221.082,"text":"為什麼那個時候我們就不喊停他們確定不來了那我們當然要緩議啊對不對為什麼沒有呢是不是請我也說明一下對啊我想基本上他們所說到的這樣的用語啊其實政治上的解讀就很簡單嘛就不友善嘛不是不友善而已不是不友善喔人家就說不是只有不友善不是只有不友善而是說我們都很清楚台灣正在進行什麼"},{"start":5222.837,"end":5226.52,"text":"總統大選總統大選所以老共他在操作啊他不是公開的對外說期待能夠跟他們所謂的相同這樣的一個政治立場的人當選嗎"},{"start":5244.253,"end":5257.759,"text":"問題是他跟你講他講說民進黨是談判僵局的障礙的時候在執行政策的角度執行政策的角度的時候按照民進黨的你當然應該基於對等嘛你是不是那個時候政策就要喊停"},{"start":5258.579,"end":5271.55,"text":"沒有沒有沒有我講基本上基本上商業上我們認為商業上的對等是可以撇開政治的只是他自己這個時候又要撇開政治我覺得蠻奇怪的啦那我們期待他自己能夠看到兩岸的經貿"},{"start":5275.073,"end":5297.683,"text":"主委你剛剛講很多啦你剛剛講到選舉我也是蠻可以理解的因為11月3號還有啊11月3號交通部在答詢的時候答那時候那個游玉蘭前委員的質詢的時候說即便有不好的訊息我們還是3月要開放因為我們要考慮旅行業的生計主委我今天要把這個中區來龍去脈去做一個還原就是因為我們很擔心啊"},{"start":5298.683,"end":5321.623,"text":"你當初第一個開宗明義我們就講這個東西不能單方面讓利我們不能熱臉貼冷屁股可是講到現在這個溝通管道不清楚談判過程不對等政策又不連貫我覺得這個是要檢討的我剛剛提到溝通管道沒有所謂不清楚啊剛剛不是講了有那麼多的我剛剛問你哪一條管道你就說你沒有很多管道溝通的結果他們態度不清楚啊"},{"start":5321.803,"end":5341.997,"text":"重點是不對等嘛人家很早就講他不來了很早就講他不來的時候我們還開放是不是就變成逆差那我們是不是就熱臉貼冷屁股這是不對的嘛我們都希望對等啊那為什麼9月10月有不好的訊息的時候你那個時候喊停是不是不會衝擊旅行業9月10月應該不是要不好而是要不明的訊息"},{"start":5342.597,"end":5368.968,"text":"阿10月25就講你們是將軍不會來講不會來了餒對不對那就是一個負面的訊息嘛你如果講9月不明我接受10月是負面嘛就表示狀況不好你這個政策為什麼不那個時候喊停呢你那個時候喊停的時候大家比較不會有意見為什麼你踩穩了我們的立場也維持了對等的原則大家是不是相對來說沒話說可是基於旅行業生計也很重要所以你還是要做"},{"start":5369.668,"end":5387.779,"text":"那我也可以理解就像你講的有的時候我們丟開政治有的時候丟開政策對你剛講的很好那是交通部的評估交通部的立場可是你陸委會的立場難道不應該守住嗎對啊所以我們有表達所以結論是你聽了交通部的建議我們認為這是一個純經貿的議題不需要跟政治第二個"},{"start":5391.761,"end":5400.925,"text":"這個時候你又不願意去對等,我覺得很奇怪你不要講什麼藍白河,這是事實啊不要打北鎖問好不好今天大家都沒有扯到其他的事情我們就陸客團這件事在做討論,不要轉移焦點好不好沒有轉移焦點,這個就是攪和在一起的嘛"},{"start":5413.211,"end":5427.102,"text":"所以到了11月然後後來到最後才喊停那段問題就很嚴重嘛你前面的政策反反覆覆不連貫而且在談判的時候沒有踩穩對等的立場這一點本是最嚴重的問題談判怎麼沒有踩穩對等立場啊人家後來你還要來你這樣熱點貼人家冷屁股啊對不對所以我們考量我請還有20秒我請一下交通部啦我也有問題要問交通部啦"},{"start":5436.138,"end":5464.91,"text":"委員好這個喔既然這件事情已經變成這樣了不是很愉快了主委休息一下啦沒關係啦齁這個事情既然已經不太愉快了那至少要善後嘛你的報告來得很晚講得也不清楚我覺得不只是這個你剛剛講的時候我可以提前一部分出團這叫做盡量的亡羊補牢這我可以理解可是還是有很多的旅行業者在這個過程中受到了利益的損失嘛我們國家的信賴保護原則政策發布之後不執行本身就是一件很大的問題嘛"},{"start":5466.01,"end":5483.565,"text":"對不對那這件事情難道不值得進行補償嗎難道不覺得應該為旅行業的寒冬做一些紓困嗎以及第三個更重要的既然這樣子的跨國旅遊有問題我們的國旅難道不應該加強嗎提醒一下藉這個機會提醒一下"},{"start":5484.545,"end":5485.285,"text":"馬上請相關工作人員提資料給林委員"},{"start":5511.235,"end":5518.537,"text":"繼續我們請張宏祿委員來質詢我們請這個女委員來幫主席帶領一下主席好 謝謝來我請我們陸委會邱主委還有我們交通部林次長張委員好"},{"start":5550.296,"end":5558.941,"text":"其實一般的國家跟國家在談不管是行權、不管是經貿、不管是什麼最重要的是不是就是要對等"},{"start":5560.083,"end":5586.625,"text":"這是基本上國際經貿大家期待的原則啦不不不主委應該不是期待的原則阿應該是普世的原則普世的價值才對吧對啦對我說的是一般的國際上嘛對不對對所以阿我們在跟中國阿我們要談阿不管我們的旅遊或什麼的其實最主要的還是要對等吧我們不能矮人一傑阿是不是"},{"start":5587.785,"end":5588.626,"text":"所以在對等的前提之下也要"},{"start":5612.514,"end":5633.426,"text":"也要保護我們本國的各行各業的產業吧這個是最基本吧我想這個所有政府部門經貿部門包括觀光部門都是採取這樣的一個原則跟態度對嘛我們在跟美國跟全世界各個國家我們不管在談任何經貿什麼的大家都是要對等啊"},{"start":5633.766,"end":5634.106,"text":"所以回到來了"},{"start":5662.425,"end":5672.174,"text":"這個能不能夠跟中國這一個我們開放團體課我想請問一下那個次長我手頭上的資料"},{"start":5673.841,"end":5692.956,"text":"如果啦中國不開放入客來台灣的話我們一年的損失是739億是不是這是2019年的標準疫情前的標準疫情前的標準嘛對不對所以如果他們沒有開放來我們台灣一年損失就是739億對不對對"},{"start":5695.518,"end":5710.773,"text":"沒錯嘛等於沒有開放團客國內相關的旅行、交通、食宿、餐飲、購物都會相關的影響就等於不會有這個消費對嘛阿我說這個金額就是739億對不對對以當初的水準是"},{"start":5713.576,"end":5738.214,"text":"對嘛齁那以現在來講應該更多嘛齁這個啊什麼都有都有長的情況所以我覺得你我們不如果中國不開放他他們的團客來我們開放我們的團客去我們一年損失739億次長如果你們做了這個決定會不會有台灣很多的本土的業者餐飲業者民宿業者等等的會不會上街抗議"},{"start":5739.595,"end":5763.778,"text":"會不會找你們會不會抗議跟委員報告確實您提的是重點我們在處理觀光業者的時候有出境跟入境那您提的這個是我們一方面要考慮出境業者我們叫歐邦歐邦業者的權益一方面也要考慮國內本土旅遊業者相關的生計所以我們也得考慮說大陸如果不開放的話對本土業者是傷害的"},{"start":5764.498,"end":5786.222,"text":"對啦,除了對我們的本土業者,這一些我們在本土所有觀光餐飲的這一些接待、入客團體這些是一個傷害之外這也是我們跟對岸要談判的一個籌碼啊,對不對?我們要保護我們的業者,這是一個很合情合理,全世界都同一個標準嘛"},{"start":5786.522,"end":5811.403,"text":"我們其實是希望兩岸對等開放啦所以從去年8月24號開始就一直希望是釋出這樣的善意以後陸方也能夠對等然後回應要不要開放陸團客來台這個我們都知道嘛這個我們希望對等談話我剛一開始就講了嘛我們也沒有說不開放嘛現在是中國不開放所以卡在這裡嘛重點是不是"},{"start":5812.123,"end":5822.174,"text":"那我們為什麼卡在這裡?我們要保護我們本土的業者啊!要不要?對不對?這是考慮的因素,重要的因素這應該是很重要的因素之一嘛!這要跟大家講嘛!這個"},{"start":5825.39,"end":5828.171,"text":"甚至他也有可能也有台灣有投資餐廳啊"},{"start":5854.778,"end":5866.421,"text":"也都有很多可能啊對不對所以我們在考量啊應該是全面性的啦對不對是好謝謝次長那我再請問一下那個我們邱主委"},{"start":5868.857,"end":5887.999,"text":"主委,我不知道你有沒有看到今天的新聞美國的驅逐艦分N號特別經過台灣海峽而且現在剛好是中國的兩會期間然後金門的事件還有中飛在南海的衝突"},{"start":5889.636,"end":5913.231,"text":"他特意提早以前大概都是月底我不知道這主委應該比我清楚特意提早來我個人認為這個是美國對中國釋出一個非常明顯的訊號就是台灣海峽是國際海域是屬於自由航行的這中間也會牽扯到他所謂的M503的這個航線這個這個種種的我認為美國是故意挑這個時間來的"},{"start":5919.295,"end":5943.252,"text":"向他的印太夥伴來說這個保證印太的積極的自由跟航行的權利我覺得主委是不是有這個意思存在我想我們看到美國不管是太平洋司令也好或者說美國的軍方也好大概都多次的表達他們都按照國際的法的規範在維護國際的這樣的一個航道"},{"start":5946.975,"end":5968.746,"text":"這我想已經宣布了好幾次了那第二個就是說中國他因為軍事的擴張跟武力的使用事實上已經造成周邊的國家都有高度的警覺了所以也因此大家就是對於整個海域的安全大家就集體的來做這樣的一個維護的動作了那我想這個應該是可以理解的"},{"start":5969.612,"end":5988.466,"text":"應該可以理解啦所以你的看法跟我是一樣啦只是你不方便在這邊說的很直接啦那另外啦在這一次在他們兩會期間啊中國刻意把和平統一和平兩個字拿掉這個我不知道主委有沒有注意到你覺得他代表的意思是什麼"},{"start":5989.926,"end":6016.453,"text":"確實我們大概每一次的中國的兩會或者是他們的黨的大會的報告我們大概都會去做一些相關的研析不過因為坦白講單純這樣子我們沒有辦法馬上具下論斷我們當然都會再收集更多的資訊特別是相關單位的資訊來做他們這樣的一個用意到底有沒有什麼樣的一個用意"},{"start":6017.213,"end":6042.48,"text":"不過因為不能只單看一個字眼因為主要的原因我們是會總體來看他報告裡面還提到有沒有其他的部分會涉及到這個東西比如說他內部社會的問題也好他經濟的問題也好他們到底怎麼樣處理那這個都是有一定程度的連動所以單純看四個字恐怕不是我們只在注意這個字詞的用意而是說要整體來看觀察那我們也會跟相關單位來做這樣研判"},{"start":6044.381,"end":6066.909,"text":"那我們如果有什麼這個外界有什麼我們大概在例行記者會也都會接受大家的詢問那做比較完整的表達其實只是要提醒就是說很多的滋味小節那如果這樣其實主委都有注意到了這個這樣國人就會比較放心我們都有注意到所以我最後還是要說我們今天這個專題報告我還是覺得"},{"start":6072.386,"end":6072.546,"text":"謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":6101.094,"end":6126.184,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請黃建斌委員質詢謝謝主席我想我們有請我們的陸委會主委跟我們的次長陸委會邱太三主委以及交通部次長請有請"},{"start":6129.618,"end":6153.612,"text":"會議員好主委早 次長早我想在那個質詢之前本期身為台東的立委我必須要跟陸委會跟交通部反映一件事情就是不要從台北看天下了不要從國境上看天下我們希望能夠把天下人士當作自己的事來看"},{"start":6156.072,"end":6181.037,"text":"那團客重不重要當然相當的重要他的產值相當的重要那本席所在的台東縣長期仰賴這個觀光產業來發展顯得更重要那我們更在乎的是入客還有其他各國的觀光客人來台東本來知道講到入客可能又要背車椅來抹後"},{"start":6183.278,"end":6194.172,"text":"還說我們跟中共同路不過我相信為了臺東的未來尤其認為該講的就要講該做的就要做委員我不會這樣的我等一下再說我記上依舊母鳳祭2019年來臺灣的觀光客人次大概是1186萬人就到去年"},{"start":6202.267,"end":6224.279,"text":"也達到了600萬的目標不過這樣是疫情之後其實也僅僅恢復了5成不反觀我們亞洲其他鄰近的國家的觀光數據韓國去年在上半年度已經恢復了6成日本也已經恢復了8成那我們台灣的成績真的算是後段班後段班才去年9月底來台灣的旅客也可以看得到"},{"start":6225.626,"end":6241.082,"text":"我們中國大陸受到政策影響目前只有14萬人次來台灣一口氣下滑到排名第10原本排名在第二來台灣旅客最多的日本也沒有因為這樣順勢攀升僅僅不到60萬來台大幅的下滑"},{"start":6242.529,"end":6271.719,"text":"原本我們寄望兩岸春暖花開的大陸旅行團課現在完全喊卡我想這個想要吐露這跟當時我們賴清德副總統在選舉時候提出的我們的門永遠是開的我想請問主委跟次長這兩位哪一位那麼大膽把門關起來不是我們門一直都開著啊是他不讓他們的人來啊是對啊了解謝謝主委是他不讓他們的人來不是我們讓我們的國人都可以去自由行啊"},{"start":6272.884,"end":6301.643,"text":"現在就是團客的部分我們也認為說他開我們同樣同時開嘛這不是最好的一個結果我相信就是你們關起來之後影響到的問題我們都可以意見得到我們可以意見得到那我想要請問主委跟我們的次長路靠不來我們的損失在我們的交通部這邊有講到739億這個是數字上的損失嘛數字上這個數字統計損失還有很多無形的商機都沒有了我想這是變相的打臉我們賴清德未來總統的政見"},{"start":6303.204,"end":6325.764,"text":"我要在這邊幫未來的賴清德總統來考慮一下請教兩位當時賴清德副總統在選競選的時候提出的觀光立國有六大面向你知道是哪六大面向嗎這個我是不是請 署長 副市長署長 六大面向包委員這我要去查一下"},{"start":6329.192,"end":6330.273,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6340.891,"end":6365.06,"text":"是報告委員那基本上賴副總統的這個六大面向這個我們都應該都是在進行當中那尤其是第六項我們是很歡迎來那個跟跟上報告六大面向第一個包括以觀光立國的目標儘快回到1000萬人次的國際觀光客的目標達到步步有觀光然後結合地方政府發展觀光主流化"},{"start":6365.64,"end":6388.489,"text":"打造國際觀光品牌讓地方的觀光資源能夠充分的展現進行區域性的合作推出區域性的旅遊產品報言這些方向都非常有眼見也是相當這是我們副總統我們未來的總統提出的我們各部會甚至我們觀光署跟相關部會努力的目標譬如說第二點"},{"start":6389.569,"end":6405.816,"text":"觀光署現在也不是只有我們自己在做行政院也有一個跨部位的會議把文化部、農業部、內政部、國家公運署以及相關部位跟觀光有關的都結合在一起所以這些工作剛好是最近我們主要的重點"},{"start":6410.452,"end":6412.233,"text":"市長,我相信真正的善意是要有一方先丟出來"},{"start":6432.344,"end":6432.464,"text":"請各位兩線的熱線電話"},{"start":6454.02,"end":6464.197,"text":"我桌子上確實有一支電話啦還是說親愛的交通委員 交通委員會請那個中華電信去查一下電話線路還行不行"},{"start":6466.807,"end":6491.645,"text":"還可以用啦還可以用只是要不要使用而已啦我想這開玩笑啦所以不好意思我只是要提醒說不要等到ECFA或其他兩岸重大來往的都斷掉之後再來去檢討或怪罪誰我想這個都沒有用我想誰對誰錯社會大眾都會有公斷很抱歉"},{"start":6492.566,"end":6514.398,"text":"本席要的不只是入客而已因為臺東的地理條件非常特殊也受到很多發展上的限制我們需要更多的觀光客進來我想問次長是次長你有聽過I believe I can fly嗎?不是臺東的笑話是臺東機場的IDF你是I don't fly你是I can fly是次長我們要的是臺東機場來的飛機能夠更多"},{"start":6522.229,"end":6542.288,"text":"跟委員報告臺東機場我們民航局的部門一直有在整建現在在整建滑行道那他整建完成以後可以320的飛機可以落大概180到210人國際包機子可以直接飛臺東市長你知道臺東到臺北的火車要花多少時間嗎"},{"start":6543.93,"end":6568.51,"text":"快的話3個半小時到4個小時,慢的話要5、6個小時本席來開會都要坐很久所以我們航空的班次比較多,一定還要6班市長,台北到東京的時間多少?可能要4個小時報告市長,你到東京的時候本席可能還在火車上而且因為可能還買不到火車便當,肚子餓火車便當的問題,我們會再討論"},{"start":6583.586,"end":6603.278,"text":"時間成本真的是會影響到旅遊最主要的因素我跟您報告,我們新型的EMU3000已經進來有50列了,600多列所以基本上這一系列的車型可以...市長還是要3個半小時嘛是,大概3個半小時那變相是很痛苦的事情,市長知道嘛對不對"},{"start":6604.518,"end":6625.307,"text":"現在就是花東雙軌的部分也同步在進行所以有些地方必須必須要避讓有些班次我們比較快直接從宜蘭一直到台東市長交通的時間成本會讓人決定要不要去旅遊台東不是台灣的後花園我們是南島文化的發源地"},{"start":6626.585,"end":6651.415,"text":"讓它是全世界非常重要的文化的一個資產我們可以說臺東是外國人要認識臺東的第一站那過去花蓮曾經能夠直飛到香港那去年4月份花蓮還有直飛到越南的這樣的一個紀錄的班機希望臺東可以讓臺東機場也可以飛到更多的地方讓更多的外國遊客能夠認識臺灣"},{"start":6654.442,"end":6677.044,"text":"跟委員報告花蓮是因為在前一陣子香港快運他們大概全力發展花蓮那其實疫情前他們也想到臺東那臺東當初是因為跑道、滑行道的問題所以我們一樣去開始整建整建完成320就可以落他們就可以飛那第二個是我們觀光旅遊我們觀光署也有"},{"start":6677.685,"end":6678.145,"text":"接下來有請高津素美委員提出質詢"},{"start":6712.263,"end":6717.072,"text":"謝謝我們的委員我們請一下這個陸委會主委好 邱太三主委有請"},{"start":6721.004,"end":6742.653,"text":"主委您好辛苦了最近真的非常多的事情造成您的這個工作業務量非常的大謝謝體系本來之前就沒有什麼樣的這個溝通管道現在更是惡意螺旋一直往上不斷的增加升高然後我們看到就是昨天李強在人大報告"},{"start":6744.013,"end":6745.995,"text":"我希望您用一分鐘來簡單回答我"},{"start":6760.989,"end":6784.784,"text":"我們如果回顧比較長的歷史來看大概民進黨執政的時候他大概都以反突做優先那如果國民黨執政的時候他就希望統一做優先大概在這兩個裡面做主軸上的區分那所以呢我剛剛也提到就是說我們也來理解一下他是不是跟過去一樣或者是他有特別的用意這就是我剛剛講說我現在沒有辦法據下論斷"},{"start":6787.125,"end":6808.963,"text":"所以你們根本沒有跟著這個所謂的時事的態度趕快做一個因應的措施您剛剛講的對不起對不起主委您剛剛講到的這個部分都是意識形態的部分今天您是全民的陸委會主委我是全民選出來的立法委員我們不應該站在哪一個執政黨的面前來談論國家安全的問題還有全台灣2300萬人民安全的問題"},{"start":6813.386,"end":6835.833,"text":"所以本席建議就是現在的兩岸的這種惡意的螺旋持續的升高非常的嚴重其實這不是好事情對於政府所謂的政府就是全民的政府不是哪一個政黨的政府不是嗎所以對於政府你們應該是有責任要來降低這樣的危機這才是全民的利益對不對"},{"start":6836.813,"end":6840.734,"text":"昨年11月交通部原本規劃在今年春節就要恢復旅行社組團副旅遊的具體內容"},{"start":6856.858,"end":6871.115,"text":"按照不管是陸委會的報告也好交通部的報告也好觀光署的報告也好你們總共有三個重點第一個重點就是什麼因為逆差的問題對吧第二個就是"},{"start":6872.301,"end":6892.798,"text":"改變了N503航路運行方式因為你們考量整體情勢不利國家的利益然後還有第三個是用反間諜法因為反間諜法會造成國人到大陸去人身安全的風險增加了然後呢我們是"},{"start":6893.579,"end":6921.795,"text":"沒有有效的機制可以處理這樣的因素所以呢你們就暫停了這個赴陸組團的這個部分那我就覺得有一點納悶就是這個納悶就想要問一下你們所謂的反間諜法的原因不是在現在就有嘛對不對那6月前到大陸去的不管是組團不管是自由行的這些人難道就沒有所謂的人身風安全風險嗎"},{"start":6923.636,"end":6950.804,"text":"所以委員我們的陸委會多次在我們的例行記者會裡面一再的糟糕國人大陸他整個法律的制定所涉及到的不是只有這些啦如果更早期包括他的所謂的數據安全法你在那邊如果上網上他們的這個相關的單位的數據也可能會涉及到相關的法制所以我們陸委會大概在兩個禮拜一次的例行記者會一定會提醒國人"},{"start":6952.245,"end":6956.648,"text":"委員講得很好,所以我們希望他跟我們簽的協議我們本來就有機制在就像我剛剛講的"},{"start":6979.648,"end":6980.469,"text":"這很早就有了很早就有了不是因為這一次6月"},{"start":7004.631,"end":7025.898,"text":"所以外界一直因為為什麼你們這次會片面的宣布你的法律基礎到底是什麼好了我們今天終於看到了我們的觀光署是說找到法律依據了這個法律依據是發展觀光條例第53條第一項以及旅行業管理規則第49條第19款"},{"start":7029.019,"end":7055.147,"text":"因為這樣子的法律因素所以呢旅行業者你們就必須要負管理監督之責然後你們必須要有損害國家利益的這樣子的概念所以呢觀光署就事前通知我們的旅行業者說你要保護國家利益所以你就必須要暫停請主委您休息一下我們請一下交通部"},{"start":7058.041,"end":7080.911,"text":"請暫停我的時間請問一下交通部不管是次長回答也好、副署長回答也好我們的旅行業者組團到大陸到底他破壞了我們國家利益的哪一個方面你要用這樣子的條例來告訴我們的旅行業者"},{"start":7082.099,"end":7082.859,"text":"日本僅僅第二季的人均消費17.68萬億元"},{"start":7102.461,"end":7107.267,"text":"也就是相當於3月3號匯率新台幣37,192塊來計算的話去年台灣人去日本旅遊的人數大概多少錢你知道嗎一千多億耶"},{"start":7117.398,"end":7117.878,"text":"日本政府並沒有禁止他的國人來台旅遊"},{"start":7142.416,"end":7157.236,"text":"但是如果你用逆差的這樣的概念來說這樣逆差的話更大啊如果這種的態度是開放的那這個就看好啦所以你不能講逆差嘛所以你就不應該把逆差列為國家安全嘛"},{"start":7157.877,"end":7158.977,"text":"因此你也不用再回答我了齁"},{"start":7181.504,"end":7187.888,"text":"陸委會和交通部禁止臺灣旅遊業者組團去大陸觀光。我要問的是,請主委也上台一下,這個決策過程到底是什麼?有沒有會議記錄?因為你們今天來的這個三個報告的決策會議過程好像都是講這三個。我要請問你,這個決策過程有沒有會議記錄?"},{"start":7203.829,"end":7222.037,"text":"是你陸委會自己決定的還是行政院跨部會決定的在去年的8月間是行政院跨部會嗎跨部會就是剛剛有提到了那跨部會的成績有哪些剛剛他有提到報告裡面有提到有我們陸委會交通部跟經濟部因為"},{"start":7223.297,"end":7225.078,"text":"昨年8月的時候他應該在忙著選舉沒有管這些事情"},{"start":7249.176,"end":7255.862,"text":"所以去年8月的時候你的意思說在簽的中不管這件事情但是您剛剛在這邊說不就你的決斷好像說來這邊觀光然後影響我們的選舉這好像選舉也是在你們的考慮之中嗎所以您再講一下這個行政院的跨部會有哪些有哪些再講一下有哪些有陸委會"},{"start":7276.66,"end":7290.125,"text":"陸委會、交通部、跟經濟部還有幾些相關的﹐相關是誰啊﹐保安單位嘛﹐比如說移民署也好啦﹐或者是這個﹐因為你今天的會議﹐我今天請你們報告的這個名稱就是決策的內容你們今天也沒有告訴我好不好﹐因為我的時間有限"},{"start":7297.748,"end":7315.118,"text":"今天專題報告是決策過程但是我們在你們三個單位裡面也沒有看到決策過程然後做了這個決策之後到底有沒有做過全面的損害評估有沒有今天的報告也沒有看到"},{"start":7316.511,"end":7332.159,"text":"對啦 基本上把結論都已經告訴各位了嘛沒有啊 平常評估損害評估第一個不對等嘛 第二個呢你只有講利差嘛你講多少嘛 第三個其他的部分嘛包括剛剛提到的嘛 對不對這個損害評估不僅僅是這個三個大項還有國內的損害評估啊對對對對你們沒有啊 對不對剛剛不是剛剛提出的那個數據嗎"},{"start":7340.143,"end":7340.483,"text":"主委時間到了齁"},{"start":7356.229,"end":7377.138,"text":"我今天就我在這邊質詢的這個我的立場我下一個最後的結論我的結論就是說你們這麼樣出招的政策我認為就像我昨天的總質詢一樣不管我們的政府做了哪一些錯誤的政策你們都不願意收回因為我覺得就是故意的這個故意"},{"start":7378.198,"end":7404.491,"text":"是讓我們旅行業者當作兩岸的對抗的砲灰我覺得這樣子不妥啦好不好我想我們也有很多的委員可以我認為不妥這個希望大家能夠更加和諧的交流我覺得這個是你的工作不要忘記我們也努力了好不好我們盡量大家努力好不好尤其是您喔您更重要啊好嗎"},{"start":7405.331,"end":7420.806,"text":"好 謝謝今天的質詢好 謝謝高津委員這個請相關的單位針對本案的決策過程提供相關的書面資料以及衝擊影響評估提供給本會委員以及高津委員做參考以上"},{"start":7432.125,"end":7434.908,"text":"好 我們繼續請黃婕委員質詢好 謝謝主席我們請熱會主委請邱主委"},{"start":7450.656,"end":7469.277,"text":"主委首先往下請教一下因為大家都在說這個我們兩岸交流以及這個觀光應該要在對等的基礎之上那這個對等到底指的是什麼基本的原則是什麼我想對等呢 好有問題啦就是說大家在政策上如何"},{"start":7469.878,"end":7469.998,"text":"為什麼這樣沒有不對等?"},{"start":7496.847,"end":7524.185,"text":"其實剛剛主委就已經回答了嘛對等的基礎就是兩邊都是同樣是完全開放的狀態就不會有這個問題嘛所以為什麼我們跟中國之間會很常被說沒有對等因為其實我從剛剛整個報告聽下來我整理了一下目前其實中國到台灣的政策是團客跟自由行完全不行對嗎是的而且他已經開放了138個國家團客可以去就是沒有台灣"},{"start":7524.545,"end":7538.845,"text":"沒錯 那我們台灣去中國是自由行都一直都是可以的對嗎對沒錯 所以其實台灣到中國到現在都還可以自由行我們買一張機票就可以過去這個是政策上很明顯的一個不對的對嗎"},{"start":7540.567,"end":7540.947,"text":"這是必然的嘛"},{"start":7567.261,"end":7582.637,"text":"對"},{"start":7582.837,"end":7602.066,"text":"那再來其實仁次我也有去查 去年其實因為在中國團客跟自由行都沒有辦法來台灣的情況下只有22萬人來到台灣那這包括可能是第三地的商務的就其實零零總總也就22萬人那台灣去中國因為自由行都還有開放所以大概有176萬人整整差了8倍"},{"start":7604.967,"end":7613.374,"text":"那這其實從政策到產值到人次很明顯就是一個非常不對等的狀態請問以上的數字有說錯嗎根據交通部的統計這是確實是這樣子沒有錯好那再來我要講一下這個對等不只是說這從政策產值到人次其實我要講"},{"start":7626.504,"end":7642.716,"text":"過去都一直以來都是中國在對台灣進行片面的改變現狀為什麼其實剛剛前面有委員提到說為什麼馬政府時期OK然後到了民進黨執政時期不OK很明確啊因為他們就國台辦就講啦他們說有九二共識才要開放"},{"start":7647.742,"end":7666.481,"text":"他們很明顯就是要以商逼政嘛這其實國台辦從頭到尾都沒有在掩飾他的政治意圖以政治來進行商業的干預那其實過去從馬政府時期到蔡政府時期其實當蔡政府一上任的時候這個人"},{"start":7667.702,"end":7696.722,"text":"中國來台的旅客就有非常明顯的落差是418萬人最後只剩下351萬人他們其實就很明確講了你民進黨執政我就是要用人數來台的人數來干預你的執政的這個影響那這是第一個那到了2019年7月的時候國台辦也禁止中國的自由行來台當時國台辦是怎麼說的他說有九二共識才有自由行"},{"start":7698.023,"end":7716.317,"text":"完全不演了他就是很明顯我要用政治的手段來干預我們兩岸的交流那這樣有對等嗎再來剛剛主委也有提到說去年12月其實中國已經開放138個國家的團客跟自由行到世界各國但是獨落台灣"},{"start":7718.205,"end":7742.762,"text":"從頭到尾就是沒有要讓台灣跟我們對等的交流啦所以從頭到尾就是在欺負台灣嘛那再來甚至是到了今年1月非常更嚴重的事情就是他們篡改M03的航路那剛剛主委這部分我也希望你再明確的表達一下為什麼這個會嚴重影響飛安甚至是不是有模糊海峽中線的意圖"},{"start":7746.971,"end":7759.898,"text":"國際社會也都對於中國擅自更改503這樣的一個路線發出說這是在片面改變現狀而且會影響到整個區域的國際飛航的安全因為它就是一條國際航道"},{"start":7762.21,"end":7783.901,"text":"所以這其實是值得大家關注的事情善改M503航路這件事情是中國一直在片面的對台灣改變我們兩岸的現狀那最後當然他們還加碼就是不只沒有善意以上聽起來林林總總對台灣已經很沒有善意了還非常惡意的加碼1月的諾魯斷交嘛然後跟我們搶邦交國嘛"},{"start":7784.381,"end":7793.218,"text":"那以上這些009的事情那國台辦還片面的說我方的做法不得人心但從頭到尾沒有溝通誠意的是不是就是中國?"},{"start":7795.551,"end":7820.617,"text":"我想我先問啦以上這些他們在進行這個措施的時候請問中國有來跟台灣溝通過嗎?我們如果會有接到任何消息嗎?當然不可能啦沒有嗎?完全沒有嗎?這個對等的溝通在哪裡嗎?那我想問一下這一次我們在這個在釋出說我們很願意開放團課的這個前提用對等的前提其實我們釋出非常大的善意是嗎?對,沒有錯那請問中方給了什麼回應?"},{"start":7823.438,"end":7830.623,"text":"以讀不回還是未讀未回根本就不理我們對嗎初期他們是認為這個現階段不談這個議題但是也沒有所謂明確的否決但是隨著台灣選舉的這個基調上面他們的這個說法上就越來越朝向負面我就問一個很明確的如果當中方給了什麼樣的回應我們就可以對等的來開放那可以開放什麼可不可以請"},{"start":7851.075,"end":7877.874,"text":"主委這邊給一下一個明確的指令就是說當中方答應說他們開放團客跟自由行來台灣我們就可以對等的開放是這樣對嗎對基本上我們還是會按照過去的經驗上從彼此的人數上為什麼我們一開始所謂的設定這個每日2000人的這樣的一個計算基準倒不是說限定每日一定2000人而是一段時間的總數那是在算總數"},{"start":7880.276,"end":7897.028,"text":"因為2019年他就是調控到他可以調控到從本來團客幾百萬人次調控到只剩下85萬人次所以中國在對台灣的觀光旅遊也不斷的隨著台灣政情的發展變化他有控制他的人數"},{"start":7898.68,"end":7918.074,"text":"好那我也希望說我們就維持這個原則那繼續的釋出善意當然我不希望說我們的善意是真心換絕情好心被雷清啦這個一定要秉持住這個基本的原則那最後我還是要問一下說因為大家還是說這次有許多的旅遊業者可能因為我們釋出的資訊不夠明確"},{"start":7919.255,"end":7924.78,"text":"所以他們已經先行組團了所以我們今年3月到5月確實也有讓這些本來有要組團的還是讓他們去開放對嗎?要不要請我們副署長說明一下那基於以上的這些就是3到5月是次長還是次長?你要請人回答那次長也可以"},{"start":7938.992,"end":7943.734,"text":"好 我們請次長我先把明確的問題因為你們確實還是在這個釋出的訊息上或許有一點落差讓旅遊業者覺得說已經可以去組團了所以確實我們還是在3到5月有一個緩衝讓他們盡量在這段時間本來已經組好的還是可以附入旅遊對嗎附中旅遊"},{"start":7959.17,"end":7988.159,"text":"是的那我還是希望說已經發覺有些旅行社開始攬客所以就基本上3月1號到5月31號這三個月降低他們已經組團這個損失了那可不可以請市長明確的說明說我們在這段時間會如何協助業者跟稍微受到影響的這些旅客的權益我們祭出什麼樣的措施來協助他們因為讓國人安心還是最重要的"},{"start":7988.972,"end":8015.354,"text":"跟委員報告基本上3月1號到5月31號已經成團了就如期出團第二位以後的盡量變到前面來或改團或是退會這個我們觀光署會來協助好那這部分之後還是叮嚀在釋出訊息的時候一定也要跟業者有一個明確的溝通讓他們知道我們的政策是什麼並且確保所有旅客的權益那最後還是要小小的提醒畢竟現在附中的風險"},{"start":8016.235,"end":8016.596,"text":"繼續我們請徐宇珍委員質詢"},{"start":8055.755,"end":8060.26,"text":"主席您好是不是請邨泰森主委跟交通部林國賢次長好請主委請次長謝謝"},{"start":8066.675,"end":8087.168,"text":"主委辛苦了我想陸委會的副主委曾志宏副主委在2023年8月23號與例行的記者會上有宣布因應兩岸民眾旅行、旅遊跟商務的需求從9月1號起恢復開放旅居海外的路客來台觀光此外也將恢復兩岸的團體旅遊"},{"start":8089.269,"end":8113.822,"text":"然後在2023年11月3號的時候．在院會的時候．交通部王國才部長也回答．立委的質詢說．赴中國旅遊的進團令．可望在2024年春節前宣布解除．3月1號可以開始組團．尤其在2024就是今年的1月31號．交通部舉辦的新春記者會的時候．也正式宣布3月1號將如期．"},{"start":8115.723,"end":8124.508,"text":"的解禁兩岸的禁團令．開放臺灣的團客到中國旅遊．還強調．就算今年陸客沒有來臺．1200萬的國際旅客的目標還是不變．但是才過了7天．"},{"start":8131.591,"end":8153.226,"text":"過了7天而已2月7號觀光署就馬上更改政策通告所有的旅遊業者即日起不准再接新的復入旅遊團那以招攬成團的出發日期在3月1號到5月31號的團體為了保障旅行業者跟旅客的權益所以仍可出團然後6月1號之後的"},{"start":8154.4,"end":8176.398,"text":"旅遊團就不行我想請教一下這個邱主委跟林次長至少講了5個月的政策今年1月31還信誓旦旦的說陸客沒來沒關係我們3月1號如期解禁為什麼7天之後政策大轉彎這個政策是誰決定的是陸委會、交通部"},{"start":8179.708,"end":8186.951,"text":"8月24日之後,交通部他們對外的說法,我是不是請他們,因為我們不曉得他們內部的...好,謝謝委員,成為您剛敘述的,8月以後,一直是表達善意,希望大陸能夠看到我們願意開放"},{"start":8202.137,"end":8202.598,"text":"這個決策是交通部決定的嗎?"},{"start":8216.182,"end":8230.571,"text":"應該是在行政院裡面綜合討論的也就是說交通部在立場上希望大陸能夠有善意的回應第二個呢我們也在觀察這段期間是不是有對等的這個所以說是大家共同的決定這樣嗎是是請教一下兩岸的問題其實是屬於總統的職權還是這個是屬於蔡總統決定的"},{"start":8238.418,"end":8257.688,"text":"我剛剛這個次長已經跟委員報告了基本上我們是原來就是跨部會當然也有邀國安單位因為剛剛我在一開始有跟委員會說明就是說基本上如果入客來台灣的話那基本上會涉及我們陸委會跟國安單位的業務"},{"start":8258.408,"end":8259.028,"text":"相關的會議討論有沒有會議記錄"},{"start":8285.325,"end":8288.627,"text":"宣布恢復兩岸的團體旅遊的時候為什麼是由陸委會先行宣布但是禁止團客赴陸"},{"start":8302.454,"end":8313.282,"text":"卻是由這個在交通部觀光署來說明陸委會卻不出聲請問邱主委你對禁止團客赴陸有什麼看法這個措施會不會影響陸委會對大陸溝通的業務進行影響"},{"start":8318.819,"end":8342.285,"text":"請說第一個8月24號是我們會同交通部同時來做對外開放的這樣的一個公佈那至於這個我剛剛一開始就也跟委員報告過了入客要來台灣是我們陸委會執掌但是我們的國人要到赴陸是交通部執掌那請問一下就是說這個措施對於你們兩岸的溝通會不會有影響"},{"start":8344.246,"end":8366.16,"text":"你說這個政策的決定基本上從一開始大家就透過各種的管道包括委員熱心的去協調那您覺得影響大不大是大還是不大對我們影響當然很大因為單方開放另外一方拒絕開放那特別是對我們不但是不對等而且也是不公平因為他已經開放138個國家既然影響大的話我們就要來解決問題"},{"start":8370.083,"end":8370.663,"text":"當時我們先解決所謂M503的問題第一個"},{"start":8398.83,"end":8414.768,"text":"當時他們還是有團客來啊我們也有團客去啊2018年那這個是純粹經貿的議題嘛那我們現在是認為說M503這樣的一個變動呢在當時我們就用所謂的他們要春節的加班機呢我們給他暫停"},{"start":8416.372,"end":8440.913,"text":"可是春節的加班機暫停 成害的是我們大陸台商要回家的這樣的一個權利耶這根本就是打我們自己的小孩在給別人看啦基本上這是雙向的啦 飛機都是雙向在飛的2018年當時斷交了三個國家 團客都沒有這個復入都沒有禁止那為什麼那時候沒有禁止 現在禁止是因為那時候局勢不緊張 現在局勢比較緊張嗎"},{"start":8444.016,"end":8463.18,"text":"基本上我們剛剛提到了經貿的議題我們最好是純經貿來做考量絕對最好不要有政治上的議題的干涉啦所以我只是覺得因為剛剛一直聽到F503嘛我剛剛不是講他們有英磅來進來我們當然有奧磅進出去嘛所以這是對等的啊就經貿上還是對等的啊我只是覺得說當時的狀況也是這樣子的結果現在的狀況卻不要禁止問題是他禁止他們的人來啊好這個部分呢等一下本席來跟你探討"},{"start":8473.142,"end":8497.111,"text":"P2你在你的報告的第二頁裡面有提到就是說陸方的反間諜法可能會造成國人附入人身安全的風險增加我想請教一下這個從2018年2017年公佈到現在有沒有我們的這個旅行團業者有旅客因為受到拘留的情形發生"},{"start":8497.751,"end":8497.871,"text":"從2017年到現在"},{"start":8516.795,"end":8530.35,"text":"都沒有我們的旅客因為到大陸去旅遊團因為這個反建典法而受到拘留的情形所以我覺得這樣不要這樣來恐嚇我的人民我想我如果要的話我會把我們統計到統計到我們國人在這幾年被大陸"},{"start":8533.894,"end":8562.683,"text":"因為這是旅行旅遊工會給我的相關資料那我也希望你們提供官方的資料我們來做做佐證我們沒有禁止自由行所以連自由行的也有受到傷害另外呢我想要在這邊也要再請教一下我們交通部就是有關這一次用的法令是呢發展觀光條例第53條第一項有損害國家利益者請問一下所謂的有損害國家利益者你們是什麼定義的"},{"start":8564.276,"end":8586.346,"text":"報告委員,損害國家利益之餘有可能所以我們用旅行業管理規則第19條提醒他們在這段期間就不要出團那我想請教一下在第53條第一項裡面有規定到說禁止團客復入嗎?可以禁止團客復入嗎?"},{"start":8587.666,"end":8607.232,"text":"包委那是一個不確定法律概念所以這個條文裡面只有說可以處以罰還或者是停業或是停止這個他的執照並沒有提到說你可以禁止團客來復發展所以你引用錯誤的法令然後造成我們這觀光旅遊業者的損失這個部分應該由誰來負責"},{"start":8610.762,"end":8625.172,"text":"根委員報告基本上旅行業要遵守觀光署的監管那觀光署認為這樣的我們開放他們沒有開放是對國家利益不利所以我們提醒業者這段期間就不要做"},{"start":8640.542,"end":8640.682,"text":"主席"},{"start":8665.127,"end":8687.182,"text":"報告委員,我們為了要降低衝擊,所以3月到5月之間,他還是可以如期出團。那6月之後的呢,他有三個措施,第一個是說他可以改到其他的國家目的地,那第二呢,他可以併到3月到5月的出團。我想請教一下,如果你本來是打算暑假出團的,因為那時候剛好有放假帶小孩出團,"},{"start":8687.682,"end":8706.855,"text":"你現在可以跟他講你到五月先請假出國請假不要上課去出國嗎所以他的政策其實我覺得就是為難觀光業者尤其是觀光業者他們其實在跟大陸洽談的時候我相信常常都是整年兔的配套措施淡季旺季還有這個所謂的我們的"},{"start":8707.435,"end":8707.595,"text":"我們會再跟這個公會這邊再來討論"},{"start":8735.25,"end":8759.452,"text":"好 謝謝徐睿珍委員的這個質詢那個 對不起 這個觀光署你們真的是要把這個評估還有後配套的措施趕快而不是跟旅行業者你們也必須要提供到本會來本委員會來好不好好 我宣布一下我們請這個博弈委員質詢完畢我們休息3分鐘好不好現在有請王美惠委員謝謝"},{"start":8766.229,"end":8771.813,"text":"主席、南車主委及政事有請主委以及次長,謝謝主委、政事,大家好,在這裏大家都說很多本事要跟你討論一個,你現在停,你說因為我們的單一的"},{"start":8788.642,"end":8792.423,"text":"視之以後矣嘛,因為長久以來,我們都會覺得說,一天我們會唱反調。本身在這,要來去請教說,在這個過程當中,包括你如果好,還是交通部也好,有去宣佈說,我們三位車一開始,還可以集團去大陸出頭嗎?來請回答一下。"},{"start":8814.596,"end":8824.38,"text":"我們在今年8月,在記者會裡面,我們開放的時間點就是一開放的時間點,我們以前有這樣的做法,但是後來交通部有一些藉著對他們的建議,他們的公法,這個部分我先...這樣是不是,我政治來..."},{"start":8837.779,"end":8844.805,"text":"跟委員報告我沒有正式宣布案你沒有正式宣布但是我們有跟業者溝通說可以開始準備在這裡本學所了解就是說有一些團我們說實在的我們也會去考慮就是說今天禮拜因為這三天的疫情"},{"start":8856.715,"end":8860.818,"text":"這個觀光客、派出、大家要集團出去各國﹐也希望早日可以集團﹐但在這個過程當中﹐你若說就說﹐有可能在明年3月才開始﹐就可以集團去大陸﹐但在這個過程當中﹐因為要變化到端﹐如果要對台灣如何我們不知道﹐"},{"start":8884.056,"end":8887.498,"text":"未來這幾天、這幾天的改變時﹐我們覺得不行﹐跟我們經常說我們來人頭斥頭﹐跟我們又沒歡迎你﹐當然就是金了﹐在這個金的當中﹐本身要跟你感到的就是說﹐他們有利用什麼的理想﹐包括這個應用很大的﹐"},{"start":8909.537,"end":8913.542,"text":"不是說我們說阿公說的金就好了,金我們也要顧到台灣的資金,說來說去也是台灣的資金,在這方面我相信最嚴重可以讓你們知道我們貴姓不要出團去大陸是什麼原因來"},{"start":8931.095,"end":8938.42,"text":"向委員報告,主要當初是一直善意,我們前輩會對啦,一定有善意,一定有善意,一定有什麼關係,你來雄雄話說,這樣過程我們也會出發了所以我剛才有報告,今年以來就是相關事件,包含外交上的問題,包含503"},{"start":8952.629,"end":8980.046,"text":"最後就整個決定說2月7號決定說那既然一直都沒有善意的回應那原定的這個開放就只開放三個月因為旅行業者已經攬客了我們要降低他們的損失也要降低民眾的不便所以這三個月還是如期出團6月以後的就關卡這段期間的互動如果大陸那邊有善意回應我們也可以隨時討論"},{"start":8981.807,"end":8987.09,"text":"先說他們有互動他們有婚姻說開放他們的阿囧仔的人來我們台灣的時候我們不一定也是可以隨時、條件開放啊!沒錯!政策上是這樣!對啦!加上這兩名政治本席來請教一下有零三一這個改變對我們的航道應用有多大來?"},{"start":9003.953,"end":9015.576,"text":"跟委員報告,當年在協調503的時候是說,他如果要開放南向北,跟這個1212、1213,要雙邊協戰,他現在我們來是說,北向南要往西偏6海浬,這目的是說,萬一遇到狀況,"},{"start":9028.539,"end":9031.96,"text":"對我們來講就是說有不確定的因素會影響到航關那第二個比較重要的是以12123一個是我們金門一個是馬祖一個金門中端管制區"},{"start":9053.604,"end":9072.693,"text":"這個會跟我們有不確定的干擾因為我們現在是在起飛阿姨要降落所以兩邊要先講好這個動作應該要先溝通協調再來發布比較好1月3日發布2月1日的實施這個是太衝突了因為你的解說我們現在也覺得說在503這個問題是非常大因為以你們專業來說我們法定基金98公"},{"start":9083.018,"end":9084.44,"text":"所以說來說去,也委託台灣做出這種政策"},{"start":9102.722,"end":9109.226,"text":"在這裏他們本身要跟你談到的說,決策已經決策了,在這個3月到5月底都可以出團,這都沒問題嘛,它也沒爭議嘛,現在就是說,跟我有去找,這裡的,你敢知道目前有多少,應用有多少嗎,來,真是,過去是,3月是請出團,"},{"start":9130.217,"end":9133.738,"text":"我們目前初步跟旅行公會統計的資料那3月到5月大概是有4000團左右"},{"start":9151.567,"end":9155.669,"text":"6月的話其實影響就比較小了影響比較小是多少團啦我現在是要問說一團也應用到十團也應用到十八團也應用到是到底有沒有前面"},{"start":9169.557,"end":9186.687,"text":"所謂委員,這有三個原因,就是說,由3月到5月他可以出團,第二個是他可以併團到3月到5月,第三個他可以改...你是要動作,我三歲的孩子,我才不知道你要併團,我現在就是要跟你說,如果以後不能出團...因為6月以後可能還沒有成團啊。還沒成團就是沒有應用到啊。"},{"start":9192.499,"end":9196.083,"text":"這樣是不是沒影響到?沒成團就是沒酒精、沒定金啊!就是歷關都沒影響到啊!感染到現在說起來不是這樣耶!是現在有定金、有酒團的人"},{"start":9207.893,"end":9212.274,"text":"但是這個嚴重是有的人專門去找大陸團而已,他沒有去找白團啊他現在啦,他所找的大陸團,要來轉介,叫人去報議的時候,要如何處理,那是嚴重啦他如果去找大陸團,日本團什麼團,都可以溝通一下什麼,我現在是要跟你請教說"},{"start":9233.88,"end":9241.825,"text":"未來如果像你這樣說的話：到你現在的信息是完全落過議案沒有破團嗎報告委員因為就是說現在他們還在處理嘛就是旅行社這邊我們給他一個彈性他可以併到這個3月到5月的這個除團數或者是說他是改變這樣一個地方好啦 到沒有先處理到五月底要處理的可以併入五月底有多少"},{"start":9262.885,"end":9272.249,"text":"剛剛我們跟委員報告目前掌握的是大概4000團左右這個部分我們是先調查3月到5月的部分我告訴你聽現在的政典我不是3月到5月現在都是說不能出去的啦政治"},{"start":9289.995,"end":9292.556,"text":"在這裡面本來要跟你說的就是因為我們台灣也需要觀光站起來像你們今年決定說一千兩百萬人可以來觀光可以來台灣玩"},{"start":9306.761,"end":9310.543,"text":"在規定的當中﹐不一定包括大陸﹐也不一定﹐但你剛才說的說﹐我們沒有包括大陸﹐也可以答表﹐現在的問題﹐就是在外面都說﹐"},{"start":9321.704,"end":9326.386,"text":"民進黨航班做事：要讓人們大陸的不可以來：這是嚴重：所以政治：你我都是捏台灣白色的錢：沒帶一桶的：在這裡說的是希望台灣好：觀光界可以好："},{"start":9345.174,"end":9346.936,"text":"所以本事是要跟你說：這個沒出團的家：搞不好一個：我不是發言說他們後來後悔做：要來你們申請職：我的意思是說：你們要怎麼去打這個沒評論的：沒在國會上的出去：有條件的：你們要怎麼處理：有一個idea好不好"},{"start":9372.568,"end":9375.549,"text":"跟委員做個說明就是說3到5月就是我們給這個旅行社做一個談訊處理的一個方案所以這個部分完全可以出團還有什麼這個訂金商的問題那6月這個部分為什麼現在還在是它這個變動值"},{"start":9395.174,"end":9395.475,"text":"這樣我告訴他們,他們這樣說,你如果沒準備"},{"start":9410.356,"end":9410.737,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會主任委員"},{"start":9430.678,"end":9434.723,"text":"這這樣聽起來真的不好,真的有作為,不管什麼事情,登場就是要改觀,要不然租款的事情,一定要顧著,要對等嘛,不能說我們來人家投資投,跟人家又不要來人家投資投,跟我們"},{"start":9449.982,"end":9452.424,"text":"好 繼續我們請李柏毅委員 質詢 謝謝"},{"start":9486.613,"end":9493.061,"text":"謝謝我們請邱泰山主委以及我們交通部林次長一起好請主委跟次長謝謝李委員好"},{"start":9497.12,"end":9524.262,"text":"主委我曾經是你的助理我也曾經跟你在高雄市政府有同事過那我回想到過去中國曾經利用觀光客的手段來對付台灣的種種有什麼我突然想到一個熱比亞事件主委你在擔任高雄市副市長的時候高雄市辦了一個影展由民間單位來主辦一個影展"},{"start":9525.003,"end":9551.777,"text":"那這個影展呢 裡面有上百部的影片、電影其中一部有關熱比亞哇 其實在整個籌辦的過程裡面 其實台灣的社會是這樣子嘛你要放什麼電影 其實基本上是不會經過審查的只要你的這個電影分級制度它是合理的那符合這個輔導級、限制級等等的對內容其實我們是沒有意見的但是對岸不是啊"},{"start":9552.717,"end":9564.97,"text":"對岸跳起來我記得那時候好像整個高雄市政府被高雄市議會當時國民黨的議長整個快要翻掉了包含副市長包含現在的主委你也被趕出去"},{"start":9566.439,"end":9593.666,"text":"這個其實就是中國利用各種包含這個他們的觀光客要不要來台灣要不要來高雄要不要到高雄市當時六合夜市的攤商都說啊因為放這個影片害的其實背後這是什麼背後是台灣的民主台灣的自由播放了影片受到中國這一方面的制裁這一次的事件一模一樣"},{"start":9595.495,"end":9617.637,"text":"中國想要利用觀光客來作為他們的籌碼但是當然我們採取對等的方式我們在8月的時候我們就提出這個團客其實也不是我們提出啦我們跟我們的旅行業者來討論這個經過新冠疫情之後8月是不是可以要旅行業者大家來討論"},{"start":9619.595,"end":9645.617,"text":"團客可以開始來進行籌劃但是這個旅行業者就開始在籌劃的過程裡面消息出去嘛但是這個過程裡面還包含中國片面的時不時的用我們的農產品又驗出什麼樣不合中國標準的那在包含這個M503的這個航線他要片面的做改變所以我們不能只有"},{"start":9646.718,"end":9664.458,"text":"交通部我們不能只有觀光署這邊片面的來去決定說我們的團客開始要過去陸委會行政院必須要做相關的調控整體的考量來決定我們是不是對等的團客過去對方對等也可以團客過來"},{"start":9666.52,"end":9684.894,"text":"讓雙方的這個旅遊業者包含台灣的住宿、飯店、餐廳業者也可以得到這些觀光紅利今天整個這個我們專案報告的討論的內容焦點其實就是這個但是我先問主委一個很難回答的問題我相信你也答不出來如果"},{"start":9687.867,"end":9701.099,"text":"我們經過今天這個專案報告之後我們又開始好我們的結論就是說我們要有善意我們來先來提出我們的觀看我們的團課6月之後又可以開始籌辦了"},{"start":9702.964,"end":9704.906,"text":"中國方面會不會同意他們的團課開始籌辦來 主委請你回應"},{"start":9720.345,"end":9724.471,"text":"除了剛剛委員所提到的事實上去年8月我們當然宣布對等開放之後我們也很希望他們能夠有希望我們期待嘛期待到過年前所以他們有說要組彩線團到台灣來有來嘛"},{"start":9737.69,"end":9759.681,"text":"我們也幫他們安排希望說他們這些人回去也能夠跟他們的政府提出說確實應該也讓入客到台灣來但是沒有想到這個中間過程就是起起伏伏又涉及到台灣的一些政治所謂的選舉等等所以才會造成對岸很多的考量"},{"start":9760.862,"end":9784.749,"text":"那很多人考量重點是在於說對我們實在是不公平因為他不斷的宣布他要開放到他們的團客可以到其他國家去包括港澳結果就是沒有台灣那這個對我們來講坦白講我們是難以接受啦不對等就已經很糟糕了又不公平那我想這也是應該是國人難以接受的那我們也很熱情的歡迎他們的採線團先到台灣再來勘察如何安排入客到台灣來旅遊啦"},{"start":9788.51,"end":9805.062,"text":"所以我想交通部也都很認真的期待這個能夠促成但是沒有想到我們後來看到的變化其實是越來越不友善謝謝主委你先請稍等一下我請交通部那個林次長我想請問一下對岸的這個對等的機關你認為對岸對等對於旅遊的這個機關"},{"start":9810.686,"end":9821.577,"text":"他們要開放入客團客來台灣的這個他們的旅行機關是他們的對等的這個行政機關是什麼就你所知"},{"start":9823.687,"end":9835.231,"text":"跟委員報告,雖然是文旅部,但事實上是不是文旅部?是國台辦嗎?所以國台辦沒有同意,那國台辦要請教國台辦的主任,再請教國台辦要問他們的主席,對不對?"},{"start":9842.373,"end":9858.38,"text":"所以這個層次的問題真的不是交通部也不是觀光局確實陸委會邱主委是這一次必須要決定臺灣的這個觀光的團客到底能不能過去但是最後的決定權是誰"},{"start":9859.46,"end":9880.34,"text":"我們遞出感染誌之後,最後的決定權是誰?還是國台辦嗎?這個是我們沒有辦法質詢的單位所以說,來,次長你請休息,再請邱主委所以,從2019年,其實大陸方面,中國方面就因為台灣進行縣市長的選舉"},{"start":9882.335,"end":9909.497,"text":"那因為台灣這個太民主、太自由、太多元來台灣看電視會讓這些大陸來的這些自由行的旅客會愛上台灣的民主啊所以說會愛上台灣的自由啊所以說他們就開始禁止這個自由行的旅客來台灣那到這個目前為止啊中國也還沒有開放大陸自由行的旅客來台灣是中國還沒有開放對不對對"},{"start":9911.258,"end":9936.485,"text":"他那個禁令還在2019年8月1號的禁令所以不是台灣不是陸委會禁止中國的自由行旅客來對不對對我們還開放了第三地的大陸人可以來台灣這個還有很多很多人搞不清楚這個還有很多人以為是我們陸委會禁止大陸旅客自由行來台灣其實我們在這邊還是要清楚的說明是大陸方面禁止他們的自由行旅客來台灣對不對對"},{"start":9938.666,"end":9963.189,"text":"謝謝那我們不斷的釋出這些感染值但是過程裡面還是遇到中國沒有善意的回應那總是把九二共識掛在前面說你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來談團客或者是你如果沒有承認九二共識你就不要來跟我們做相關的談判甚至現在今夏的這個快艇的事件是一個執法"},{"start":9963.749,"end":9963.769,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9987.267,"end":10003.127,"text":"目前大家也都很期待嘛剛剛有很多委員也期待說那6月之後的團呢暑假之後的團呢目前中國方面這些國台辦方面有沒有任何的跡象顯示說有可能有機會可以談"},{"start":10004.092,"end":10028.392,"text":"一般來講我跟委員報告跟委員會報告大概基本上我們在觀察中共的一些政策或是說他的面向大概都會跟他們自己的政治時程有一點關聯目前來看他們的兩會也是我們觀察他未來的政治走向包括他對國際的這樣的一個因為我們基本上也都必須要跟國際做相當程度的"},{"start":10029.272,"end":10057.031,"text":"連結跟觀察所以我想兩會之後我們會有一些相關的觀察報告那我想我們也會提供給交通部來做參考好 謝謝主委目前為止我們內政委員會的委員我聽起來大部分支持對等也就是說我想這是朝野的利益都應該對我們都支持對等但是我要加一點就是說其實我更支持我們行政院包含陸委會要用政策性的調整"},{"start":10058.132,"end":10083.065,"text":"那也可以符合到所有旅行業者的期待如果說未來有機會可以交流的話大家要知道這是一個對等的交流讓我們國內的這些餐廳旅館業者也有機會享受到開放之後的這個旅行的紅利不是只有我們的旅行團出去那邊記得中國的邏輯人民幣很香你要聽他的話"},{"start":10083.945,"end":10103.777,"text":"那所以基於對等的原則的話我們也希望可以促進臺灣島內的觀光也可以蓬勃的發展,謝謝是的,我想交通部也保留所有的彈性只要對方有調整,我們就會相對應的回應好,謝謝謝謝博弈委員質詢,謝謝主委,謝謝次長我們現在休息三分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":10536.487,"end":10539.87,"text":"現在我們繼續開會我們請張志倫委員發言主席好各位委員好各位我們官員好各位媒體好先請大家好是不是請我們邱主委跟我們的次長有請主委和次長謝謝張委員好我先請次長"},{"start":10566.928,"end":10584.799,"text":"首先要先感謝次長因為本席非常關心中和的交通所以目前關於我們中和國道3號有關於這個從土城往中和方向北向的出口其實高空局非常積極努力來去做一個改善的工作那相信這個進度會蠻快就完成的"},{"start":10585.179,"end":10588.04,"text":"請問次長您知道現在我們台灣的旅行觀光業者有4000多家的業者對於交通部現在從這個農曆年前開放台灣的這個旅行業者可以組團到大陸去旅遊"},{"start":10605.589,"end":10616.286,"text":"而且在我們的小年夜之後就禁止了只開放了3個月請問這個次長這邊我們是依據哪一條法令來去做對體行業者做這個限制"},{"start":10617.129,"end":10640.932,"text":"報告委員我們在旅行業管理規則49條第19款有說旅行業者要依照觀光署的指導來決定他們的相關的這個作業所以基本上我們是提醒他們說在這段期間既然已經組團3月1號到5月31號我請教一下因為就我得知當時有依照觀光發展條例第53條"},{"start":10642.473,"end":10659.621,"text":"的規定說因為這樣子的行為會傷害國家的利益請問你們有這樣子回答我們的旅行業者嗎那個是最高階的就是說不確定因素可能會損害國家利益但是真正的授權是在66條"},{"start":10660.782,"end":10688.191,"text":"好 這就是本席我認為你們第一個沒有跟我們國內的觀光業者充分去溝通因為觀光業者他們的想法是說這是這個有跟針對觀光發展觀光條例第53條是僅限於對旅行業經營的管理它是應該是沒有辦法擴張到禁止旅行團組團去某一些區域是不是已經逾越法定的一些規定你們的想法是不是已經逾越了法定的規定"},{"start":10689.54,"end":10709.351,"text":"跟委員報告,發展觀光條例第66條,要求授權給交通部,就是目的世界主管機關,訂定相關的管理規則所以我們在旅行業管理規則裡面,第49條有相關的規定那我請問民法的部分,是不是因為會有損國家利益?民法是第66條,授權給交通部訂定,66條"},{"start":10713.191,"end":10715.236,"text":"那你剛剛講的那個是發財的部分跟相關的後果"},{"start":10720.12,"end":10746.215,"text":"所以本席要了解是說因為當時你們跟我們所有的觀光旅行業者是說用觀光發展條例第53條這新聞上都可以查得到說有損及國家的利益啊那現在你們是改口說不是用這條嗎跟委員報告53條裡面有三項嘛裡面有一項是損害國家利益損害國家利益因為還沒有還不確定因素發生所以我們是用第66條授權的部分"},{"start":10748.135,"end":10763.501,"text":"我認為這樣就是法令的無限的擴張所以本席這邊要拜託我們交通部這邊如果旅行業者如果真的去帶團去大陸旅遊如果真的有損及國家的利益的話"},{"start":10764.121,"end":10764.561,"text":"請問我們次長的部分"},{"start":10785.224,"end":10800.694,"text":"這個有關於這個觀光旅行業者其實有強烈跟你們表達說當你們3月份開放以後3、4、5、6月尤其4、5、6月它是一個一個檔期喔很多的觀光業者其實6月份的時候都已經下訂了不管是機票以及大陸的這個"},{"start":10801.474,"end":10802.435,"text":"提出多少賠償金額?"},{"start":10822.03,"end":10836.204,"text":"跟委員報告我是不是請觀光署跟您報告一下基本上3月到5月我們讓他如期出團那6月6月跟7月尤其6月份可以提前出團或是併團那如果沒辦法提前出團的話要如何補償這些旅行觀光業者的損失"},{"start":10837.981,"end":10863.678,"text":"那損失大概估計多少錢,要用什麼樣的經費來去支付?跟委員做一個說明,那3月到5月的部分,我們目前掌握大概是有4000團。我說6月份,不好意思。那6月部分的話,他現在有三個政策,第一個是說他可以併到3月到5月的這個部分。如果不能併的話,大概有多少?第二個部分是可以,就是說到改變其他的目的地,那第三個就是可以退回解約。解約的損失是誰來補償?"},{"start":10865.922,"end":10879.574,"text":"那就要看他們當初定期的那個契約的一個期限所以我跟次長報告就是臺灣的觀光業者沒有辦法接受的地方這些解約需要旅行業者自行去負擔那這邊我要跟大家跟次長報告其實當時有開一個記者會"},{"start":10882.016,"end":10899.366,"text":"旅行業者當時已經有在記者會裡面講了他們不排除520的時候來去賴清德總統的就職典禮來給他祝賀來表達他們強烈的訴求那我希望的是說請這個次長的部分一定要跟觀光旅行業者"},{"start":10900.186,"end":10921.52,"text":"來做一個很好的溝通跟討論好好的去補償不要讓這些觀光旅行業者他們沒有辦法得到訴求而在賴清德總統520就職典禮那一天來去做一個恭賀的行為我覺得這是非常不當的所以拜託希望說這個次長這邊因為今天部長不在是不是可以保證我可以做一個好好的溝通520的事還不會發生這樣的事情是"},{"start":10923.997,"end":10943.315,"text":"跟委員報告,觀光署在2月19日有找業者來溝通基本上也要讓業者知道這是兩邊互動的一個過程因為是為了長久旅遊跟觀光發展的長治久安所以我們也期待在3月到5月之間如果陸方有善意的回應,能夠開放團客進來其實這個我們也可以繼續延續下去"},{"start":10947.279,"end":10970.248,"text":"所以還是要拜託次長,因為這邊你目前為止還是沒有一個明確的回答我說,不管是6月份旅行業者的損失,或是7、8月份有些特殊地方他們的訂金是如何來助作補償。所以我想以這樣的回答,觀光業者是不會,不太會妥協,也不太會認同。所以520的部分,我希望你在520的時候不要像本席講的,沒有辦法完成這件事情。"},{"start":10970.788,"end":10990.219,"text":"那最後也要跟你報告,因為今天我們的部長不在,其實部長在108年的時候其實有代理過這個交通部長所以我也要這邊有一個統計數字跟你報告在108年的時候,台灣去大陸的旅客人次是230萬人次"},{"start":10992.66,"end":11017.318,"text":"大陸來台灣的旅客是將近180萬人次所以我們的邱部長、次長你們應該非常了解其實過去在疫情之前兩岸的旅遊觀光是非常的順暢的所以我希望說部長這邊跟次長這邊可以盡量來努力回復疫情之前兩岸的觀光旅遊的問題好那現在我是不是也可以請我們的主委一起來我有些事要跟你們兩個請問一下"},{"start":11019.88,"end":11038.353,"text":"這邊就是我要特別請到兩位都可以一起回答這邊就跟你們請教因為你們現在限制我們台灣可以組團到大陸去旅遊是限制到5月31號所以是拜託部長、次長跟我們敬愛的主委你們是不是可以組一團到大陸去旅遊"},{"start":11039.313,"end":11053.585,"text":"順便大家說見面三分情有旅遊就有溝通有溝通就可以大家可以更順暢的去去來做一個未來兩岸的主席不好意思我可以再兩岸如果有溝通如果你們願意有"},{"start":11053.985,"end":11054.225,"text":"我願意報名參加"},{"start":11080.38,"end":11098.27,"text":"我大概事實上過去這30幾年我去大陸大概快要20次以上了那我請問一下從疫情之後你有去大陸過嗎?沒有對啊那我意思是說既然我們都已經開放了從3月到5月31號可以開放那我們是不是請次長也來回答一下"},{"start":11104.346,"end":11126.983,"text":"有沒有這樣的考慮?為了我們台灣兩岸其實我們是沒有禁止自由行去大陸所以我們是可以去參觀那現在問題是他沒有開放團客重點是我的意思是說就是因為沒有開放團客尤其交通部他的一直的表述是說我們就是等待善意的等待陸方這邊的回應所以我認為可以主動出擊"},{"start":11132.307,"end":11148.779,"text":"市長或是主委你們就組一個觀光團帶著我們旅行業者去強烈的去講說過去不管是疫情前我們是如何去做交流的為什麼疫情完以後不能做交流我覺得不要太多政治口水應該要主動出擊而不是一直等大陸擔當的回應"},{"start":11153.302,"end":11167.328,"text":"我請教一下有沒有辦法去大陸去做一個旅行團因為是可以開放團客去大陸嘛有沒有辦法開放就組一個團由次長跟主委組一個團去大陸做參訪"},{"start":11170.066,"end":11189.172,"text":"我想這個可能你先去了解一下對岸如果願意讓我去我是所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我剛剛講你如果組得成的話我報名你的團因為我跟你講我們是民意代表是監督單位你們有行政權所以你不排斥嗎我不是不排斥我很樂觀其成"},{"start":11190.663,"end":11214.04,"text":"我不是不排斥而已最後還是要拜託我們的主委因為其實我跟你報告剛剛有報告這個人數其實台灣去大陸的人次從疫情之前是有230萬人所以就算你沒有辦法台灣沒辦法開放團客還是有非常多的台灣的人會去大陸所以請你們一定要好好來處理這件事情保障台灣人到大陸旅遊的安全可以嗎"},{"start":11214.84,"end":11233.112,"text":"對,委員我想你剛剛提到的不錯就是我們也要讓大陸的政府知道說我們也期待他們的人都過來兩岸這樣的一個交流其實可以更加的認識跟理解我想這是善意的這個增加了好,謝謝主委好,謝謝張主任委員的質詢也謝謝主委、次長以及署長,謝謝繼續我們請丁學中委員來質詢,謝謝"},{"start":11243.666,"end":11255.18,"text":"感謝主席,請我們主委跟次長,啊,主委你先坐下,你先坐下,現在先請次長是不是?好,我們先請次長,謝謝。因為,跟次長請教一下,我們在理解國家最重要的是誠信對不對?"},{"start":11263.804,"end":11266.065,"text":"政策在形成過程會先溝通溝通的過程會看實際是否成熟所以這整個過程是有這樣的節奏"},{"start":11291.442,"end":11293.223,"text":"市長你請教我們這個開放遊大陸這個政策重大的一個政策是很重要的政策團遊的那個"},{"start":11309.347,"end":11326.437,"text":"應該這樣講,我們交通部在過程中間是希望能夠促成這件事情,但是過程也要看大陸的善意,誠如剛剛報告的我們去年8月,8月就已經有這個參與。現在說6月以後就不可以組團的意思就是大陸會評沒有善意就對了。"},{"start":11327.277,"end":11339.148,"text":"因為到現在都沒有開放,從我們去年開始說到現在都沒有說他可以來。我們現在自由行可以去大陸,他都沒有辦法來啊。我們在正式的,我們是民主國家嘛,我們對外都一直有這樣講,也釋放善意,從8月開始就一直這樣。"},{"start":11350.879,"end":11351.699,"text":"主團互入也是我們賴總統的一個政策"},{"start":11373.03,"end":11373.09,"text":"我們歡迎陸客來臺"},{"start":11404.012,"end":11410.101,"text":"貴女姐,我們就送我們這個旅遊業者一個大禮物,就是進團令"},{"start":11411.805,"end":11430.44,"text":"委員我們要說,我們是希望促成,所以前幾年背過、摘過,到今年初都希望說,我們的善意可以得到回應,但是一直到2月7號以前,都等不到消息。那個時候你們有對應就對了,你們有跟他們對應就對了,你們如果沒有跟選舉那邊就算了,因為那時候江湖跟他們對應說,他們沒有跟他們對應,江湖春天,對啦,跟選舉說這裡,"},{"start":11440.148,"end":11443.838,"text":"跟選舉所在再來再來算法啦吼啊怎麼會突然會受到"},{"start":11445.507,"end":11446.347,"text":"主團行自由行有什麼活動?"},{"start":11473.915,"end":11474.175,"text":"是因為這樣才會進行"},{"start":11501.782,"end":11513.873,"text":"應該說都沒有對等的開放,連自由行都沒有開,剛剛主委也報告他對130個國家,連港澳都開放了,但是他都沒有對我們。我是覺得啦,我是覺得吼,交通應該是比較重要,我會覺得交通比較重要。"},{"start":11519.258,"end":11521.599,"text":"我們現在不是說遇到大陸的這個我們外國營業群的總統來跟你們請教我們是因為我們之前你們也知道之前因為以前疫情而我們這麼多旅遊業的時候因為疫情的關係這麼多公司都倒閉了對啦 啊後來兩位齁"},{"start":11542.052,"end":11569.271,"text":"現在疫情已經過了,我們旅遊觀光都已經開放了,已經都開放了,這麼多人都很熱鬧的去大陸選擇發貨是怎樣?剛才我們的委員、立委同事,他在說在請我們主委的組團,我去參考,我去參考我一定會去,因為我很希望看到什麼,兵馬俑跟紫禁城,"},{"start":11571.828,"end":11572.269,"text":"由於這進行．"},{"start":11574.622,"end":11582.686,"text":"有經過一個反滲透條例,反滲透法,要做到單元訂定,要做一個修訂,再走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":11602.039,"end":11604.642,"text":"我再跟你講一個趣味,宗教觀光這樣有什麼?宗教觀光,有什麼組團?宗教交流。委員,我們自由行沒有金,你要自己去都可以。今年,我們婦人館完整,奧風公,"},{"start":11622.216,"end":11630.943,"text":"因智慧：因智慧去大陸做宗教的一個交流：智慧：還要讓他們請施主委一人開門往外去：結果當然出了一條紙："},{"start":11637.418,"end":11640.5,"text":"總幹事還說幾個月我們自己拿錢去搞好我只是說這算什麼可以拿去做的事情是我們公安局不夠狹窄的不是你們公安局狹窄的那是地安黨有狹窄的可能啦 可能一個原因就是什麼算了算了"},{"start":11662.592,"end":11666.173,"text":"所以我覺得這種惡習一直在存在我會覺得政府要讓我們明確保障到國人旅遊的權利以及我們國人的一些文化交流的權利"},{"start":11685.22,"end":11710.821,"text":"對啦,我是覺得這一定要給我們做一個比較好的一個報告給委員報告齁,我們自由行沒有金,但是團課的部分本來是希望開放嘛,所以因為他們對方沒有給我們善意的回應但是我們也是說3月1號到5月31號還是讓原來九團進去降低大家的這個不方便啦這一段期間希望他們能有善意的回應啦"},{"start":11711.101,"end":11712.421,"text":"五二零以後的事情看未來的"},{"start":11735.45,"end":11742.432,"text":"所以我聽到你講的,人家520反省喔,人家520不就讓人家520再選好這件事,你當總統還沒起來,你就選好這件事?我們希望把路破好,如果順利,我們繼續走,如果沒有順利,當然到時候要調整。你會想像這樣有什麼好,其實齁"},{"start":11762.478,"end":11765.619,"text":"其實你們的可能啦,我們都尊重啦,但是齁,我們是依依說若驕啦,我們是依依說,我們這個旅遊若驕,他們的權利啦,真的,我就像剛才說的,當進行疫情的時候,我們這個若驕已經犧牲這麼多,多了這麼多經歷,讓他們現在有機會可以給他們複製,我們希望說,當這個"},{"start":11788.413,"end":11807.257,"text":"其實去大陸會議員的人是很多的我們說這個也可以討論的好山好水好風景和我們台灣一樣大家也希望去看一樣的一個民族和不同的風景這樣也很多人大家希望去看我們不要拋開那個政治立場"},{"start":11814.798,"end":11815.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11832.725,"end":11833.505,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11853.515,"end":11860.718,"text":"主委、議員可以跟交通部作一個再次的一個大家溝通一下,以我們的國人的權利為重。感謝主席。"},{"start":11872.022,"end":11872.522,"text":"麥玉珍委員主席"},{"start":11903.732,"end":11924.131,"text":"想要請教一下部長去年明確表示說3月1號就是要確定解除禁團令恢復兩岸的觀光旅遊但是呢又在今年2月7號又宣布說那個赴陸旅行團要停止"},{"start":11926.304,"end":11947.242,"text":"所以這樣子的政治急轉彎．不但造成就是旅遊業的虧損．還有就是造成更多的民怨．隨後部長又再表示說．重啟那個禁團令是不是．是不得已的決定．是因為經過各部會討論．也一再強調說．"},{"start":11952.746,"end":11968.462,"text":"中方需要釋出善意才能恢復雙方的交流而最近就發生金門的事故兩岸緊張的關係再度升溫如果是那個善意沒有釋出的狀況下這樣的話我們的禁團令就"},{"start":11973.507,"end":11974.968,"text":"我們是希望能夠溝通業者及早準備從去年8月就是這個態度"},{"start":11998.083,"end":12015.701,"text":"我們部長在以前是希望業者說既然有這個方向請大家開始準備可是在今年以來有一些狀況就是剛剛報告的可能在外交上在飛航路徑上都有一些我們認為不是很正面的互動"},{"start":12017.482,"end":12044.631,"text":"在去年以來宣布說希望能今年3月左右開始準備開放可是我們也等不到消息一直到2月7號以前都沒有正面的回應所以這個促使政府再要綜合考慮整個政策所以我們在2月7號就先宣布已經組團了3月1號到5月底還是如期5月以後的就併團或是提前那如果這段期間如果能夠得到3月回應我們會隨時檢討"},{"start":12046.252,"end":12049.897,"text":"所以還是有條件也正面open來看這件事情"},{"start":12051.535,"end":12075.374,"text":"所以意思說我們釋出善意,別人不同意,我們就是照著別人的不同意,我們就是不跟,是這樣子嗎?所以說是我們的決定還是說別人的決定?我們歡迎他們過來,但是如果一直都沒有,我們已經有開放自由行,一般民眾可以用自由行去參訪或是去旅遊"},{"start":12077.897,"end":12092.339,"text":"團課的部分目前為止,因為大陸還沒有開放團課,我們就不對等開放所以是我們的規劃就是他們開放我們開放,他們不開放我們不開放,是這樣子的意思嗎?是,政策上是這樣"},{"start":12094.321,"end":12113.03,"text":"從8月開始,去年8月就一直是這個態度不是,我們也主動開放希望他們能夠組團,或是開放相關的社會協會但是我們陸委會在早在去年8月就是說公布恢復"},{"start":12114.47,"end":12128.204,"text":"兩岸觀光旅遊的規劃對於旅遊人數所限制2000人但是我們交通部這邊又說11月份表示說團客到中國就不限人數這樣子顯示兩個步調不同"},{"start":12132.848,"end":12145.241,"text":"本會議是不同時期的評估依據也不一樣我們2000人是用2019雙方都還在對等往來的時候他們多少人到我們這邊來我們用那個時候的"},{"start":12148.264,"end":12172.98,"text":"總人數去平均計算2000人那我們也提到這個將來如果有增加我們也會隨時增加這個是在過去兩岸的觀光的交流上一開始是設定3000人接著放4000人最後是5000人這個都是按照過去的往例我們這2000人的估算是8月那一次的估算那用2019年入客到底多少人到我們這邊來那我們用這樣的基準去算"},{"start":12175.822,"end":12196.85,"text":"那當然11月份之後也許這個交通部他們根據旅行業者的反應什麼等等啊他們也可能有覺得可能需要有彈性的必要但是這個都最後都可以在呃跨部會的協商裡面再去做調整所以還沒有跨部會協商就公佈啊所以就就講他也沒有講多少人他也沒有講多少人對對對對但是實際上要多少人最後還是我們會跨部會協商"},{"start":12203.052,"end":12225.063,"text":"在還沒有跨部會協商之前那交通部他們期待因為業者跟他們的反應他們一定會反應給相關部門嘛那我們就講說這個最後還是可以再來做這個相關人數的討論就像我剛剛提到的過去一開始也是三千人再來變四千人再來變五千人所以都是隨著不同階段不同的需求的評估"},{"start":12226.57,"end":12254.526,"text":"是,是說希望就是我們就是大家就是共同來去提出問題解決問題所以希望說兩個大部會就是要同調沒有的話不同調的話我們是跟著政府的步調走這樣子我們觀光旅遊還是我們的就是旅客就沒辦法說是誰說的算所以說希望就是兩個部會要同調這樣子大家才能好做事"},{"start":12255.026,"end":12258.169,"text":"謝謝委員的指教還有就是說因為我們覺得說兩個部會都講的不一致但是在不同時間點對不同時間點這樣子的話換天換地我們要怎麼我們要聽誰的對吧所以我們就想說在2024年選前的時候呢我們就說要解除"},{"start":12278.149,"end":12278.589,"text":"選前開放,選後禁止。"},{"start":12302.697,"end":12327.003,"text":"八月就講雙方對等,我們開放的時間點就是他們開放的時間點對,但是開放的時間就是在說總統就職的時候嘛,就是那段時間看他們什麼時候,因為當初也期待是不是盡快的溝通之後,越短時間只要他們開放,所以八月宣布,如果他九月就宣布說他們的人要過來的話,那我們也可能九月就"},{"start":12327.903,"end":12331.444,"text":"對,所以我們就覺得是說讓人家誤會就是說一開始就很清楚是對等的啦"},{"start":12346.608,"end":12358.044,"text":"一開始就講對等開放他們開放我們就開放所以如果是說我們的主委是這麼說再請教一下所以說這開放的部分一直在強調說他們開放我們開放他們不開放我們開放誰來做協調誰來做溝通"},{"start":12364.272,"end":12387.667,"text":"誰來去做這個部分就是我們的官方這邊跟對岸的官方來溝通嗎還是誰來溝通才能達到開放相關部門都會啦交通部有交通部的那陸委會有陸委會的所以陸委會直接在對岸溝通嗎我們基本上是有幾個啦比如說海際會也是一個啦那其他的相關部門跟包括"},{"start":12388.694,"end":12416.235,"text":"我講白了委員啦台商啦等等我們是有相關的單位會去探尋對岸的這樣的一個意思所以說別人溝通就是先探尋他的有沒有這樣的一個意願那意願他意願也許他設定搞不好是1000人而已或是這個還要再先表達你去溝通嗎還是聽說的還是別人跟你說的"},{"start":12417.396,"end":12428.921,"text":"當然不會是我啦當然不會是我啦因為我們剛剛不是講嗎兩岸其實過去30幾年來很多的事務上都已經建立了一個基本的機制"},{"start":12430.579,"end":12455.743,"text":"所以基本的基礎就是說就是經過海理會跟有海理會的溝通那也是其中之一其中之一他們的溝通所以回來跟你報告所以你就聽他們說海理會如果有訊息的話是跟交通部因為他們是交通部你們是因為有海理會的性質有他們講還有兩位"},{"start":12460.367,"end":12478.541,"text":"我們是一個非常開放的社會所以基本上業者們也會把我們的訊息帶過去第二個我們在媒體上甚至在不同的場合都會用這樣的態度來對外說明所以基本上對外是講說我們是開放的那也希望促成兩岸互動"},{"start":12479.641,"end":12498.238,"text":"所以我們才會留一個尾巴說這段期間只要有任何正面的回應我們都會繼續往開放方向來走是因為我們希望是說有效的溝通管道才能達到的效力不能是說別人說的哪一個會來說的變成不是我們是真真的我們去"},{"start":12499.517,"end":12499.797,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":12517.558,"end":12545.294,"text":"希望說我們就是要有效的管道來溝通因為現在等一下就可以等一下不可以這樣子到最後誰來賠償誰來負責所以希望說我們這邊的就是要有雙方溝通的管道要有讓有效的溝通還有就是如何去溝通讓這件事情達成共識才能讓說不管是旅遊業者還是消費者才有保障"},{"start":12546.194,"end":12560.443,"text":"就是以上的報告希望積極的推動謝謝好,非常謝謝余政委員的質詢也謝謝主委、次長還有副署長繼續我們請吳清明召委請召委來質詢,謝謝好,謝謝我們召委我們與會同仁請我們陸委會主委好,有請我們的主委,謝謝"},{"start":12579.838,"end":12591.783,"text":"108年的觀光校會已經出現了逆超早上很多同仁都在提起現在我們的逆超光是108年我們統計就是超過66億那這樣對我們的整個我們的平等互惠的原則就產生了一個變數那本席這邊也請我們諸位來講未來"},{"start":12603.308,"end":12617.632,"text":"我們是不是跟中國大陸跟我們的對岸怎樣來聯繫才能達到我們的平等互惠的原則這是我們國家的利益為原則之下我們要怎樣來跟對方我們的對岸來做一個溝通良善的一個來促進我們兩岸的交流"},{"start":12626.475,"end":12651.246,"text":"我想第一個我們在去年8月的這個新聞的記者會裡面會同交通部我們大概已經多次的表達那我想媒體也報導大陸對方也有一些新聞的回應也就是說他已經知道我們所設定的希望雙方能夠平等互惠對等開放那當時就已經做了這樣的一個宣布那對岸他也了解這樣的一個情勢"},{"start":12652.347,"end":12674.509,"text":"後來我們也給一個一個月的這樣的一個雙方的這個準備期或是什麼等等那當然在這裡面就透過或者說業者也好或者是相關的熱心的人士也好都有做彼此意願的這樣的一個巡打但是呢一開始他們可能因為一些考量或是什麼等等並沒有明確的表達要談或不要談"},{"start":12676.01,"end":12677.811,"text":"臺灣的總統大選等等,對岸在這個議題上更加保守,才會有這樣的變化,特別是選後的變化。"},{"start":12694.164,"end":12708.36,"text":"本席的建議還是是不是我們嘗試跟對岸來一個熱線來一個熱線大家來溝通因為對我們國家整體的利益我們還是要鎖住"},{"start":12709.36,"end":12735.105,"text":"還有一個平等的互惠的原則我們還是要堅持我們的立場那是不是可以跟對岸來講對岸要是要恢復你看我們剛才我們的交通部長王國才在交通委員會他還特別提到3月到5月就將近4000多團要到中國大陸超過10萬人這個"},{"start":12737.845,"end":12762.031,"text":"我們已經釋出這個善意是不是對方他也要讓我們釋出他的善意這樣我們才能夠談下去這對整個兩岸的交流是一個很大的注意我覺得委員的說法是非常好我希望這個對岸的政府也能夠看到委員的這樣的一個說法代表台灣的民意到底怎麼樣在看待這件事情因為我們國家的利益我們還是要鎖住"},{"start":12764.711,"end":12778.519,"text":"主委這一點我們就針對問題我們來跟他們做溝通那現在變成早上還在講M503這個航線這個航線出現了變化我們交通部處長來回答委員好主委你先回座好了你辛苦了"},{"start":12796.061,"end":12797.064,"text":"委員您提到委員長的電話"},{"start":12801.325,"end":12829.596,"text":"大陸在1月30號宣布說2月1號起503這個北向南的航路本來是在503上面偏西6海里來運作但是2月1號以後就不偏西了就回到原的現場那第二個呢開放它這個122、123122剛好就在我們馬祖附近123在金門附近原來是這個往西現在它開放西往東飛"},{"start":12831.776,"end":12854.908,"text":"這個過程太過充足也沒有跟我們溝通那基本上5034過境航路他有點像高速公路從3萬尺要降到平面的話他有一個過路的階段所以必須要跟我們的這個馬祖金門的終端管制去做協商這樣萬一有狀況的時候比較安全對飛航比較安全所以我們是希望大陸就這些事情也應該跟我們善意的互動"},{"start":12856.268,"end":12873.3,"text":"這是一個事件．結合其他事件政府統一考慮就是說．既然目前都沒有善意的互動．原定3月要開放的部分．我們就先開放3個月試行．就是您剛提的．讓大陸看到我們的善意"},{"start":12874.08,"end":12886.591,"text":"這三個月的參議員有將近10萬人,4000多團。以希望他們在這段時間審慎的考慮,是不是開放大陸的自由行跟團客來台方,這樣比較正面的互動,是有利兩岸的溝通。"},{"start":12887.982,"end":12903.489,"text":"既有我們M503既有我們國家的安全、人民百姓大家的出團的安全性我們還是要堅持啦那最主要是我們也可以從我們觀光署這邊的統計你像在108年108年共有400多萬的人次到對岸去旅遊"},{"start":12913.994,"end":12935.308,"text":"在疫情後下降了將近10倍剩41萬其實台灣到各國去旅遊我們的比例還是非常高那基於說我們兩岸的互等的條件下我們的不管是我們交通部還是我們的觀光署這邊還是要"},{"start":12937.449,"end":12965.509,"text":"是不是也是要充分的大家來做一個溝通這是基於我們國家整個人民的旅遊的安全性還有旅遊的品質我們國人戶外旅遊當然安全第一第二個我們也希望各地的外國觀光客都能夠來台灣所以基本上我們對其他國家沒有設限的原因是人家也沒有對我們設限"},{"start":12966.71,"end":12966.91,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12984.804,"end":12985.765,"text":"我們在大陸也有設辦事處"},{"start":13008.598,"end":13031.99,"text":"基本上大陸在台灣也有派代表所以基本上就是官方多元都有旅行業者也有所以這個是多項多元的溝通那其實政府態度很明確我們是正面open開放大陸旅遊來台的對我們台灣旅行界有4000多家對他們不要造成太大的衝擊"},{"start":13033.01,"end":13033.03,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13051.788,"end":13051.969,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":13067.611,"end":13094.885,"text":"有鑒於臺東地理位置特殊,雖近年熱氣球嘉年華活動引起國人熱烈前往,然受限於交通往返,國內旅客仍佔多數。臺東為觀光大縣,其觀光客群理應朝向多元發展。為有效解決國外旅客赴臺東不便利性之問題,應可參考花蓮機場先前的包機直航模式,無論引進入客日本、韓國或東南亞旅客,是為協助臺東觀光升級之動力。"},{"start":13095.785,"end":13112.937,"text":"原此要求陸委會及交通部應積極推展國際級兩岸團客觀光行程．並建請交通部編列相關預算整建臺東機場．完善臺東機場起降大型客機能量提案人黃建斌、徐欣雲訊讀完畢好"},{"start":13117.967,"end":13127.572,"text":"本案已經經過提案委員同意修正了然後呢照剛才宣讀的這個年案的內容我們就讓他通過好嗎好謝謝大家辛苦繼續我們來繼續開會我們請鄭天才委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":13171.584,"end":13183.794,"text":"主席、各位委員有請這個交通部有請交通部次長,謝謝還有觀光署好,觀光署副署長次長好兩岸的關係以我們的年紀都應該知道"},{"start":13197.1,"end":13223.214,"text":"從這個我們就不要講很早啊從這個蔣經國到李登輝到陳水扁總統我們就先到這裡這個兩岸的關係這個很多的變化起起伏伏對不對那台灣的自稱民主法治的國家自由民主這個很重要"},{"start":13225.747,"end":13252.603,"text":"從過去這個蔣經國時代開始這個探親嘛開放探親都是我們先啊都是台灣先啊從開放探親到後來的這個自由型組團請問一下組團台灣的人民自由的要去大陸什麼時候開始"},{"start":13256.715,"end":13257.596,"text":"我請教一下你知道有"},{"start":13287.435,"end":13314.686,"text":"大陸發射飛彈的時間嗎應該是1995年吧1995年1996年臺海危機臺灣海峽飛彈危機我們有沒有停止這個自由行所以這個部分這個是我們作為交通部作為觀光署"},{"start":13317.229,"end":13329.497,"text":"為了人民的自由為了人民觀光的自由旅行業的這些這些產業要去說服要去跟這個陸委會甚至國安局"},{"start":13341.187,"end":13360.963,"text":"國安單位要去跟他們說明我們不能倒退啊現在是倒退啊現在是倒退啊我們自由行還是開放的我們自由行還是可以去大陸目前沒有進但是不能組團啊這有差別啊對不對好我們就看"},{"start":13369.517,"end":13387.121,"text":"105年起是因為大陸105年起因為蔡英文執政了是大陸開始做了很多的開始限制108年8月1號起暫停47個城市大陸居民來台那我們還是繼續嘛"},{"start":13390.441,"end":13409.838,"text":"對不對 那個次長我們還是繼續組團去嘛是陸方禁止他們對啊 陸方禁止啦我們現在變成說陸方因為不讓他們來不讓大陸人民來 所以我們就好 什麼M503那個跟飛蕩危機如何相比啊"},{"start":13418.685,"end":13440.735,"text":"對不對所以政治的因素絕對會有但是怎麼樣去欠因為我是事務官出身國民黨執政、民進黨執政我在中央人民會服務都經歷過民進黨執政、國民黨執政都經歷過這些政務官"},{"start":13448.208,"end":13473.834,"text":"政務官沒辦法他有他的不同的使命但是我們作為事務官光署你是事務官署長你是現在政務官嗎事務官要改了副署長是事務官事務官所以我們要去欠要欠的話當然要說服的資料提供說服的資料資訊對不對"},{"start":13477.894,"end":13504.774,"text":"說服的資訊不然的話一直一直去爭論那個沒有沒有再比以現在的危機還沒有到飛彈危機吧發射飛彈喔所以這個部分這個兩岸的關係起起伏伏會因著這個政策執政者的政策"},{"start":13506.549,"end":13527.079,"text":"會有很多的變動但是怎麼樣救人民的潛意人民的潛意是最優先的所以這個部分當然你們也是受害了你們一直被旅行社罵"},{"start":13529.864,"end":13558.853,"text":"但是該反映的還是要反映是跟委員報告其實您提的很重要我們基於目的事業主管集會我們會聽各方業者的意見所以為什麼在過去結合陸委會跟經濟部其實就希望這個方向是往正面的來開放為主但是也要等對方有正面互動因為國內有一堆旅行業者、觀光業者、參與業者他們希望陸客來台"},{"start":13559.833,"end":13560.713,"text":"不管是名稱叫什麼都不重要就是臺灣的人民"},{"start":13595.853,"end":13612.9,"text":"我先北開大陸我請教一下我們跟其他國家其他國家有開放組團或是他們的人民自由過來或是他們禁止"},{"start":13614.914,"end":13620.739,"text":"哪一個國家我們就先擠先擠這個離大陸最近的北韓北韓他們的人民可以自由的來嗎?他們可以組團來嗎?"},{"start":13632.386,"end":13633.186,"text":"從觀光業觀光業是一個產業"},{"start":13654.026,"end":13676.765,"text":"這個我們必須要去考量當然人民的安全當然是第一考量在人民的安全並沒有危害的情況之下這個難免會有政治的因素但是這些政治的因素我們要強烈的去說明"},{"start":13679.401,"end":13679.661,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":13698.891,"end":13713.715,"text":"好,非常謝謝鄭天才委員質詢,謝謝也謝謝次長跟副署長。繼續我們請沈伯陽委員來質詢。我們待會到這個先一鳳委員質詢結束一下,我們休息3分鐘好不好,謝謝。請沈伯陽委員,謝謝。有請交通部次長,謝謝。好,我們有請次長。"},{"start":13731.223,"end":13750.472,"text":"政委員好好 謝謝主席 謝謝次長那這個一樣非本委我們只有8分鐘所以我想說也是快速帶過那我非本委8對所以這個就是因為剛好就在前幾天這邊也有提到這個中國的灰色地帶作戰"},{"start":13751.633,"end":13772.045,"text":"灰色地帶作戰在前面我們提到是比較偏軍事的層面那軍事的層面有某種程度還是要我們怎麼預判要怎麼做透明化但現在我們面臨的今天的比較不是偏軍事的狀況但我認為還是有很多地方是可以適用那在這邊我們先來看一下就是說因為畢竟中國的這個灰色地帶作戰在對各個國家"},{"start":13773.766,"end":13791.424,"text":"現在對台灣是最多的通常來講他們的作戰分成四個不同的層面有軍事的有我比較擅長的資訊類的有經濟的還有地緣政治的我們現在面臨的當然比較多是經濟相關經濟相關其實以往我們遇到的比較多可能是農產品"},{"start":13792.705,"end":13795.808,"text":"在這些他們的手段當中我發現在我們的應對當然這邊我們今天經濟部並不在場但是我們很多時候都是比較被動的回應"},{"start":13817.345,"end":13843.257,"text":"例如說他今天弄的是鳳梨那我們解決的就是鳳梨那想辦法透過外銷的方式讓他可以銷到日本等等之類的那今天我們遇到的狀況呢又再更往前進一步因為他已經不只指示經濟的利益那我相信在前面很多的委員也都有提到業者的損失等等之類的但這次還有牽涉到就是國人必須他旅遊嘛所以旅遊簡單來講他本來就有到哪裡的自由"},{"start":13843.757,"end":13844.278,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":13858.695,"end":13879.324,"text":"那既然你是限制團課 那我們也用團課相關的限制所以第一個我想問一下 就是在我們做這個協調機制的過程當中 這個所謂的對等原則有必要是一定都是要跟他相同的手段嗎 譬如說他今天用的是旅遊 我們就一定要用旅遊反制還是說我們可以用其他的手段 這個有沒有在當時的評估狀況"},{"start":13881.91,"end":13897.66,"text":"報告委員其實您提的很重要政府在處理事情不會只用一個單一手段會綜合各方的訊息跟資訊所以即使大陸禁止其實它不只禁止團客它連自由行動都沒有開放"},{"start":13898.661,"end":13919.559,"text":"那對我們來講我們是沒有禁止自由行到大陸所以這個這個部分我們比他開放很多我們也希望他們對等開放自由行也盡量開放那團課的部分因為涉及到不特定人士赴陌生地方的旅遊所以基本上會有旅行社的業者來帶團那這個在帶團的過程中間相對來講是比自由行"},{"start":13924.343,"end":13924.843,"text":"這些議題都是不同的訊息"},{"start":13953.01,"end":13972.787,"text":"那包含今年初的這個外交事件M503事件導致政府綜合考慮要做這樣的決定那所以是不是可以這樣理解就是在於說我們在應對的時候其實不僅僅是中國團客這一件事情而已是在整個政治的研判當中包含這個M503甚至包含他們外交其他的施壓所以我們採取這個手段"},{"start":13973.975,"end":13974.636,"text":"對於自己做中國團客"},{"start":13990.237,"end":14012.677,"text":"他相關的這一個風險在哪裡?像以往就會有民間團體建議說那是不是他們應該要有某種程度的保險?這個保險是不是政府有可能來擬定跟規劃?因為畢竟跟中國做生意跟中國有任何的經濟上的往來他是有風險的事情我知道陸委會一直以來也都會警告國人這是一個風險但是風險有了之後有些人他願意take這個風險"},{"start":14013.618,"end":14035.252,"text":"那有了風險之後我們常常會想到補償嘛那補償如果一律都是譬如說我們已經告訴國人有這個風險結果他還願意去做那到底是要由政府來補償還是由市場機制來決定就是有這樣的一個保險機制的一個研擬規劃會不會是一個比較適當的做法想要就教於看市交通部或者陸委會都可以觀光署來跟報告報告委員"},{"start":14038.991,"end":14061.441,"text":"那如果旅行社在組團的話他就可以保那個旅行社責任險、旅責險那我們的自由行的旅客如果說就是到各個地方去旅行的話他當然也可以保這種的旅遊平安險啊或者是補貸險之類的業者本身的保險業者自己的保險"},{"start":14064.315,"end":14089.851,"text":"那這樣因為業者目前也有加入這個品保協會那品保協會就是來保障整體的那個消費者參團的消費者的權益那我們今天如果說層次要拉高一點就是對於他們在經營這件事業的風險我指的是這一件事情那我是在想說會不會未來我們有機會來討論這件那因為時間關係我們先在過去那接下來我想要問的就是我們現在要對未來做一些研判"},{"start":14090.131,"end":14091.531,"text":"如果他今天提出這樣的方案 那我們的對策會是什麼?"},{"start":14116.641,"end":14142.284,"text":"我想我們在去年的8月24號的時候就一定要是在要平等的一個對等的一個情況之下來去做一個兩岸觀光的一個交流因為我們現在害怕就是說因為對我們來講這本來應該就是像我們現在在這邊討論它是一個中央主管的事務那他如果把它降成它是一個地方的事務由地方來決定然後決定了以後造成了一個繼承事實"},{"start":14142.924,"end":14143.144,"text":"那最後呢 因為"},{"start":14159.608,"end":14185.325,"text":"我知道很多人在討論這次我們進團的法源的問題那我們找到這個旅遊觀光條例或者發展觀光條例它本身因為它是有法則的規定它看起來很像是一個法源但它畢竟當時在設計的時候絕對不是直接在針對這個狀況所以如果我們今天不斷的要反制對方不管是軍事還是經濟的壓迫我們今天討論的是經濟我們現在比較欠缺的反而是一個比較概括性的法源"},{"start":14185.945,"end":14211.579,"text":"也就是說我們反制措施如果沒有一個更高的法源基礎會變成我們每一次遇到這些狀況的時候都會有點捉襟見肘就是我們要一直還看說那到底是哪一個法源適合使用那這個一定也會造成國人的疑慮所以我們是希望說就是剛剛講的這個對未來的一個研判然後以及我覺得可能是陸委會對於以後我們針對這樣事情的反制措施的會不會有一個新的法源能夠建議"},{"start":14212.219,"end":14225.063,"text":"我們這邊立法者來進行也希望可能會有看法治相關的可能有相關的一些研析然後我們可以來討論這件事情那因為時間到了就先講到這邊謝謝好 謝謝委員好 非常謝謝沈博洋委員的質詢謝謝 謝謝次長 謝謝副署長繼續我們請賴時保委員質詢"},{"start":14240.337,"end":14250.124,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請交通部的林次長還有陸委會的邱主委好嗎好請邱主委還有林次長謝謝我先請教邱主委今天的這個進入團令是誰下的決定"},{"start":14264.179,"end":14284.985,"text":"這是我們在2月6日開會議嗎?不是,我們跟交通部跟相關的總統沒有主持嗎?沒有不是總統,因為這個基本上主持人是誰?主持人是誰?這個8月份的時候主持人是誰?問你8月就是跨部會的跨部主持人今天主持人就是高津主持人啦,什麼人?那天是"},{"start":14289.11,"end":14289.911,"text":"這麼大的事情你只派人喔?"},{"start":14302.84,"end":14307.582,"text":"因為大概我沒有所謂逃避責任委員會大概知道我們一般的國安會議我們是每個禮拜都會有召開這個是針對前面已經宣布的就是當時這個經濟部我們跟交通部針對到底要開放我們團客到大陸跟商務人士來台等等"},{"start":14331.211,"end":14336.015,"text":"所以那個會議你也沒有參加?那個會議我有參加開放的會議決定反禁止主陸團、副陸團你沒有參加?應該是最後一次我沒有參加因為之前我們會把各單位的"},{"start":14348.104,"end":14348.744,"text":"總統大選的時候賴清德怎麼樣子說要照顧"},{"start":14374.91,"end":14398.999,"text":"這個我們的觀光業、旅遊業開放大陸結果現在選上了我們要騙到了當選了我們這樣講可能好好去前面那個國民黨的委員他有提他的六項最後一項是開放中客到台灣來然後我們開放啊問題是他不放啊這個是另外一件事嗎剛剛那個國民黨的委員就列了六項那個副署長都有看到"},{"start":14404.042,"end":14410.109,"text":"尊重每一個立法院的意見尊重我的意見你尊重我的意見因為你問到這問題我只好跟你補充我告訴你你不能用他來他又不是聖經這個你這樣我不會回"},{"start":14420.1,"end":14420.84,"text":"主委主持人"},{"start":14439.985,"end":14455.215,"text":"這個做主席當然好阿哥讓你做主席啦主委啊主委你可以想這麼大的一個進團進入團令第一個你不在第二個你也不是水拍板的"},{"start":14456.155,"end":14456.656,"text":"你問任何一個問題我都知道不然你問"},{"start":14472.722,"end":14473.022,"text":"時間暫停了我跟趙偉報告"},{"start":14496.089,"end":14520.196,"text":"我們要求他事後提供吧那一天會議就是做成進團進入團令的時間會議名稱隨當主席出席名單給我們可以嗎好不好意思我在這邊回覆一下這個事報委員我事實上做最後我會裁定請他們再提供什麼樣的資料你剛剛提供的意見很好其實我已經準備好了謝謝這個"},{"start":14527.979,"end":14553.358,"text":"這邱主委以前是國代出身的喔我要對你講大聲一點罵大聲一點你是要說抱歉的喔但是就覺得你不是罵你來 主委我們都知道嘛齁美蘇兩大強權過去的時候把你整個這樣撲個這樣還是有大使來往啊有政治手段啊現在台灣對中國大陸來看的話只有"},{"start":14554.315,"end":14564.46,"text":"就是說一個我們強硬的一個就是放軟的結果我們現在這邊幾乎百分之百這邊是0了幾乎是0了兩會沒有溝通你看喔兩會海基海協請問什麼時候可以恢復交流我想這個就是對岸他能夠自己擺脫那個政治的模特跟框架那大概就可以了他已經存在8年了你要解決啊"},{"start":14584.548,"end":14608.831,"text":"請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問請問"},{"start":14609.5,"end":14613.283,"text":"我講兩岸三十幾年來呢建立了很多的機制所以你的白話文就是你的意思一定有辦法讓對岸知道有秘密管道的意思沒有什麼秘密管道啦就既有的管道啦就現場的管道啦"},{"start":14632.435,"end":14633.196,"text":"有的窗口是傳達訊息有的窗口是處理個案過去陳水扁執政的時候那時候陸委會主委叫做蔡英文"},{"start":14657.292,"end":14659.874,"text":"最近的驚嚇事件有沒有通?"},{"start":14684.236,"end":14700.498,"text":"請下事件那不是他們的請下事件不是海旅會好阿他們有沒有反應說歡迎我們入團去或者有沒有失望說為什麼入團的功夫阿誰都不來有沒有講一下講一下從這回答"},{"start":14702.901,"end":14707.344,"text":"請你去回答好不好,現在有資訊,謝謝報告委員,所以因為在小館會主要是觀光這個業務所以我們一直釋放這個3億說歡迎陸客可以組團來到台灣他們也是希望我們可以到大陸去旅遊你們也表示呢"},{"start":14728.82,"end":14748.337,"text":"跟他說因為對岸對岸不友善所以我們停了對岸能不能接受對岸的反應是什麼這個陸海旅會的反應是什麼一旦失望我們是釋放善意啦他怎麼講他怎麼講他目前應該是就是沒什麼應該啊他應該是還沒回應"},{"start":14750.441,"end":14756.627,"text":"兩岸關係現在是越來越好還是越來越不好?還是差不多?兩會這麼重要的講稿裡面,結果兩會啊,現在才開的兩會啊,人大要跟政協啊"},{"start":14771.192,"end":14800.37,"text":"原來都是講一個和平統一文他講他們的結果現在和平的拿掉了我一直解讀就是說就是因為對今下的事情對這些事情把你不滿了給你拿掉了我再跟委員再報告一次大概我們會把過去大概這個歷次的這個這個不同政黨的這個那他們在兩會的報告裡面我們做一個比較綜合性的研析啦那我簡單講就是說主席站出來了站上來了所以你不要講太多話"},{"start":14801.257,"end":14802.418,"text":"我要補充的最後一點啦齁"},{"start":14830.713,"end":14836.136,"text":"兩個大人吵架不能夠把小孩子拿去撞你們現在就這樣子啊兩會不好然後就把我們的旅遊業誰去攏他來攏這樣你要跟對岸大概強調一點他不但不對等而且不公平為什麼開放了38個國家全世界各個國家啦跟其他國家吵架呢而且你禁止赴陸團對不起你是違憲找不到法律的依據你那個那什麼國家利益這個"},{"start":14860.449,"end":14879.213,"text":"這個就是一個到底的戒嚴條款底下,那個就是只有新政權了。非常謝謝賴世寶委員您的執行。好,謝謝跟委員說明一下,也謝謝主委、次長還有我等會會做一個結論,然後第二個明天會安排陸委會就會來做他們的報告。您剛剛對。"},{"start":14881.594,"end":14898.446,"text":"禮拜四嗎?對,所以明天再來我們還會希望提待看到精彩的質詢跟對話,好嗎?謝謝好,現在請謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳委員不在,我們按照剛剛宣讀的休息3分鐘然後再繼續開會,謝謝"},{"start":15099.961,"end":15100.521,"text":"邀請邱主委"},{"start":15124.147,"end":15140.532,"text":"主委好首先要謝謝主席今天召開針對赴陸旅遊團停招這個事情我覺得連著禮拜一的時候跟那個驚嚇撞船事件當中的一個事情"},{"start":15141.552,"end":15164.052,"text":"上禮拜 這個禮拜一的時候我發現大家都把焦點放在那個海洋委員會反而對陸委會這邊比較少關注到可是我覺得這兩個問題都跟陸委會有非常非常大的影響說實話而且有關聯性就是說陸委會其實能夠影響到這兩件事情我覺得非常的關鍵那我們先看一下整個"},{"start":15165.954,"end":15181.139,"text":"人類歷史上面其實很多的戰爭很多的意外都是出現於意外並不是真的說我準備要打這場仗才去打這場仗所以我們其實對於整個驚嚇事件我們也擔心會危及到兩岸的一個關係的一個發展"},{"start":15182.999,"end":15206.932,"text":"那麼今天針對旅遊團這個部分的時候那我首先先簡單講一下那之前那個邱主委曾經說過就是必須要對岸也開放來台那我們這邊才對等的方式去做這樣子的一個方式否則就按照國安的問題就先把它停下來我這樣理解有沒有錯後面的部分沒有8月宣布的時候就是依對等原則"},{"start":15207.492,"end":15224.771,"text":"對比原則嘛那交通部後來又把他停下來就是覺得說好像對方對岸還沒有開放所以就沒有開放嘛對不對我們這邊也要把他停下來這個是其中一個交通部後面的一個原因前提沒有啦因為我們希望他開放理解理解理解"},{"start":15225.471,"end":15243.119,"text":"所以我覺得這邊這個邏輯因為我覺得我們能夠掌握就是掌握在我們手上的資源跟手上的球所以我在想說哇那如果說大陸方面如果說都沒有善意回應的時候我們是不是以後就永遠其實都不要有大陸團到大陸去你的邏輯就變成這樣子對不對"},{"start":15244.72,"end":15271.912,"text":"委員可能沒有注意到我中間其實有在某次的受訪我有提到如果大陸不要的話我們對大陸的政策我們有自己的節奏跟我們的期程所以節奏的時候就有可能就是都不開放啦還是說什麼時候會開放如果大陸沒有開放你覺得什麼時候會開放因為今天我想委員都很清楚兩岸的情勢的變化不只是在政治、軍事、經濟還有其他的這個"},{"start":15273.072,"end":15275.315,"text":"所以現在你講很多可是那個部分也不是我們能夠掌握的"},{"start":15290.154,"end":15309.313,"text":"現在我們掌握的狀態,我就直接講一下,旅遊業到我們辦公室來陳情了,他們就講說如果說陸委會這邊還是卡著,交通部這邊還是卡著,不能讓出團去5月31號之後,6月1號之後沒有辦法繼續出團的時候,他們準備5月20號要上街頭啦。"},{"start":15310.054,"end":15312.698,"text":"這已經影響到他們生存的問題了我們都覺得我們國家的尊嚴很重要兩岸對等也很重要可是我要講一件事情我們看到"},{"start":15327.518,"end":15345.851,"text":"大陸來台的人數統計跟台灣去大陸的人數統計高點大概都在417萬跟418萬左右差不多兩岸進去的高點大概都差不多可是時間點不太一樣大陸來台灣的高點大概是在2015年左右"},{"start":15346.611,"end":15360.854,"text":"台灣去大陸的高點大概在2018年左右大概是這樣子我們看到統計數字類似這樣那我知道有不同的統計數字它有不同的狀態可是我要講的狀態是當417萬的大陸人到台灣來的時候對台灣具體產生了一些影響"},{"start":15368.697,"end":15383.651,"text":"418萬台灣人到大陸去的時候對大陸產生的影響非常的小那我就這邊我就給另外再跟那個主委這邊再看一個數字就是我們直接來看一下就是飯店業者他們的一個數字出來"},{"start":15385.012,"end":15408.782,"text":"飯店業者數字出來的時候我們看到的一個情況就是觀光旅館的租用率跟國際觀光旅館的租用率的狀態還有整個一般旅館的租用率我們這三個部分算起來我們就只看觀光旅館的租用率就是國際加一般平均起來的時候在103年的時候高點大概是71.8%大概有7成多的一個平均的一個住房率"},{"start":15409.942,"end":15437.649,"text":"當我們在變得比較少的時候呢就大陸對台灣我們初略來看的時候對整個住房率這個指標來看的時候大概影響10%大概影響10%的一個狀態那我這邊要講的一個情況就是為什麼旅遊業者他們很跳腳的原因就是這樣子就覺得說整個執政黨現在對於整個相關的政策感覺是兒戲去年8月的時候可以開放說要開放3月1號要開放就是赴大陸"},{"start":15439.23,"end":15454.51,"text":"臺灣的遊客赴陸團組團去大陸旅遊選完了之後呢然後又改變了那現在只能開放到5月31號所以他們很跳腳他們很跳腳所以他們準備要上街頭那我覺得以"},{"start":15456.308,"end":15483.565,"text":"旅遊業者來講的時候他們如果會要上街頭肯定是他們生存受到影響了嘛那他們也直接在跟我講他們也在跟我講的時候講得更是義憤填膺啦就很多那個髒話都飆出來了髒話都飆出來那他們覺得說現在執行黨憑什麼東西能夠讓大家不能夠出團去大陸覺得交通部這樣子的一個依法在哪邊交通部今天我就重點不在因為我覺得我為什麼一開始講到"},{"start":15485.746,"end":15504.631,"text":"禮拜一的質詢跟今天的質詢上我覺得陸委會其實要扮演在兩岸關係處理當中更關鍵的一個角色更關鍵的一個角色就是我們禁團令到底適不適合和適不適法那其實交通部之前講到是講到是對那個觀光條例的部分"},{"start":15505.471,"end":15521.68,"text":"關於條例部分,我們認為按照憲法第10條保障的人民有居住遷徙的自由當中,包括大法官釋字第443號、454號、558號當中,都很清楚提到了人民有任意移居或旅行各地的權利。"},{"start":15523.274,"end":15539.551,"text":"如果要對人民的自由權利加以限制必須要符合憲法第23條所定的必要程度並且以法律定之或者經立法機關明確授權由行政機關以命令定之"},{"start":15540.091,"end":15556.417,"text":"所以對於這個部分來說的時候我們認為現在交通部這邊就直接下令禁止台灣人民組團到大陸去旅遊我們認為其實是違反了憲法對人民居住千里自由的保障"},{"start":15558.038,"end":15576.868,"text":"我認為陸委會主委這個角色很重要就是我剛剛一開始提到說兩岸的一個關係要走向一個和平的一個面對還是可能會有意外發生我覺得陸委會也許都不是主要的"},{"start":15577.688,"end":15598.977,"text":"第一線的一個單位像禮拜一主要大家都針對海洋委員會那今天可能大家都針對交通部或等等可是我覺得這跟兩岸有關的陸委會絕對難持其責任就是你的責任的部分我覺得一定要擔起來所以今天我們講的某個部分還比較軟性一點"},{"start":15599.557,"end":15626.806,"text":"因為是旅遊相關的一個問題所以本席要認為你剛剛提到說當兩岸關係有所調整的時候那麼台灣要組團去大陸這邊也是可以開放的你剛剛意思是這樣子嗎?對不對?對那大概在怎麼樣的情況之下你覺得才可以開放?就是8月份的新聞已經發布了那前提就已經講了雙方應該要對等互惠吧"},{"start":15627.611,"end":15642.017,"text":"所以我剛一開始就提到所謂的對等這概念來說的時候理解 可是我們現在等於是打我們自己的旅遊業者打我們自己的小孩給對方看以為說我們綁架我們的旅遊業者對方就能夠妥協這個情況很奇怪這個情況很奇怪啊理解 可是問題是在選後的時候又做了一個轉折啊"},{"start":15654.242,"end":15654.803,"text":"感謝主委的回應"},{"start":15677.385,"end":15694.898,"text":"林儲英﹑林儲英﹑林儲英委員不在場羅美玲﹑羅美玲﹑羅美玲委員不在場王紅薇﹑王紅薇﹑王紅薇委員不在場莊瑞雄﹑莊瑞雄﹑莊瑞雄委員不在場呂逸琳﹑呂逸琳﹑呂逸琳委員不在場楊瓊英﹑楊瓊英﹑楊瓊英委員不在場"},{"start":15695.598,"end":15703.941,"text":"中嘉賓﹚委員不在場張家俊﹚委員不在場何新存﹚委員不在場林俊憲﹚委員不在場蘇清泉﹚委員不在場游皓﹚委員不在場陳雪生﹚委員不在場許智傑﹚委員不在場"},{"start":15721.527,"end":15734.41,"text":"馬文君馬文君馬文君委員不在場傅坤祺傅坤祺傅坤祺委員不在場蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在場繼續我們請羅志強委員來做質詢主席有請交通部觀光署好有請副署長謝謝"},{"start":15757.447,"end":15773.32,"text":"副署長好我們今天雖然安排的是赴陸旅遊團停招的專案報告但本席想要先了解的是對於來台旅遊的旅客人數觀光署今年是有什麼樣的規劃才能夠回到過去的榮景"},{"start":15775.644,"end":15796.137,"text":"報告委員,我們在112年來台的旅客是648萬我們今年希望能夠恢復到千萬人次所以針對像端北亞,尤其是日韓的市場以及西南向的國家市場這邊我們會加足力道來做一個宣傳"},{"start":15798.038,"end":15805.592,"text":"我目前就是您說的是648萬大概是疫情前的一半而已應該是超過一半"},{"start":15806.643,"end":15829.74,"text":"也差不多啦反正就還是差蠻多的啦那從2008年開始我們從開放入客來台旅遊所以入客成為旅遊業重要的收入來源那在入客為基本保障的情況之下那全世界來台灣旅遊的人次是年年逐步升高在什麼時候達到高峰"},{"start":15832.355,"end":15858.78,"text":"報告委員我們的高峰應該是在2019年對2019年但後來就碰上疫情但是如果加上出入境總和2800多萬人次兩岸航線的人次就有800萬人次那佔航空業4成營收也就佔旅行業1⅓到1⅓的營收所以比重其實是非常高的對不對"},{"start":15861.201,"end":15885.648,"text":"是那台灣有旅行社4000家有九成有發團到大陸那陸客也是過去也是台灣最大的客源所以當然是很重要的市場那現在對於旅行社來講我們的陸客團其實也是旅行社很大的很重要的收入嘛對不對報告委員根據我們的調查台灣的旅行社是大概4038家"},{"start":15887.568,"end":15908.135,"text":"一記統計資料有經營陸客團大概是1044家如果說比重在5層以上的話大概是404家所以影響也是相當有對不對如果說是以比重50%以上的旅行社的話大概是一層左右"},{"start":15908.755,"end":15932.35,"text":"所以我要特別講就是說陸客其實在過去對我們台灣我們的國內旅遊市場2019年之前它其實是非常重要的一個我們講的收入來源那實際上對於旅行社它當然不只是整個旅行業來講不只是國內它也包括大陸的部分也是旅行社重要的收入可是現在你會發現說"},{"start":15933.931,"end":15950.296,"text":"你現在我們的整個來台旅遊的人數不斷的減少那第一個對旅行業者衝擊當然就會出現嘛對不對那我想請問齁那台灣不能帶團過去也不能帶團過來造成的業者的巨大的經濟損失"},{"start":15952.51,"end":15979.876,"text":"請問我們有沒有相應的客人可以補得上?該委員就說明事實上這個疫後之後這個整個市場是有一些的變化那像我們國人這個到這個其他旅行目的地去旅遊的話那分別是今天我們調查是日本然後再來就是韓國、越南、泰國等等所以他的那個旅遊的市場其實有一些的那個變化"},{"start":15980.996,"end":15982.557,"text":"在去年就已經回復到疫情前的旅遊業的榮景了"},{"start":16005.518,"end":16008.079,"text":"目前台灣準備好了嗎?目前到底我們的目標是什麼?"},{"start":16028.513,"end":16044.387,"text":"我們的目標到底來客的目標是多少?跟委員做個報告,我們目標大概是在千萬,能夠達到一千萬以上的。達得到嗎?我們有信心。有信心,那也剩下這個九個月時間左右,對不對?"},{"start":16045.928,"end":16069.379,"text":"那我想看看上個禮拜我們交通部長王國才部長的說法他說期待今年入客能來同時也要將日本韓國東南亞旅客作為今年的重點還有印度市場也是要努力的目標那我想請問你我目前看到的數據不只是入客沒辦法連日本客成效也沒有很亮眼"},{"start":16070.578,"end":16088.805,"text":"那我想請問那你現在兩岸之間上綱的政治衝突這麼大結果你發現我們當東牆垮了可是我們也找不到西牆來補啊但是你又那麼信心滿滿說你能夠達到千萬目標因為事實上之前你的目標是一千兩百萬啊不是嗎 對不對那現在保守一點變一千萬當場少了兩百萬啊"},{"start":16094.822,"end":16113.548,"text":"那我想請問你會不會到年底你的目標又更保守了因為現在現實的狀況你就看到事實上我們目前來看的話臺灣的旅行業者就面臨兩邊的為難嘛那你今天說不准入團到大陸去其實某種程度我認為是也是對旅行業者的一個懲罰不是嗎"},{"start":16115.842,"end":16126.722,"text":"因為那個是奧邦我們當然是很希望說世界上各個國家能夠來到台灣因為他這樣對台灣的消費他的一個才有貢獻"},{"start":16127.97,"end":16152.441,"text":"所以像我們說國外的旅遊啊旅客如果覺得台灣的旅遊品質沒有達到預期那或者同樣的價格沒有有更好的選擇那就會造成說今天不把台灣列為第一選擇嘛這種情形是存在的嘛對不對這個我們一直在努力可是我看到你們這個我們政府的說法是直接推給說國內的旅館的價格太高啊是這樣推的嗎"},{"start":16155.166,"end":16167.302,"text":"其實這個旅館的價格是市場的機制那在平日的部分的話其實蠻多的旅館的價格事實上我也看到我們有一些關於旅遊方面的一些評論人他講到說"},{"start":16170.366,"end":16189.559,"text":"這個顯示出你像其他的國家在疫情後他的不然國內國外的旅遊尤其國內旅遊蓬勃發展跟他疫情期間趁著所謂的疫情期間萊克少做了很多的一些觀光方面的一些改造跟規劃是有關的"},{"start":16190.339,"end":16198.925,"text":"所以它不會是一個單一所有旅館的昂貴不昂貴的因素而是今天你能不能產生更好的性價比來去吸引觀光的來客"},{"start":16200.134,"end":16225.982,"text":"所以我今天要問就是說那事實上以目前來看就是說我如果我不能夠調整我們國內旅遊觀光的品質跟提高這個性價比你先不要講說吸引來客我們台灣自己的國人在旅遊的選項上如果我們的性價比不夠的話他會選擇留在國內還是到國外去是 剛剛委員做了一個報告那委員剛剛所提的我非常贊同"},{"start":16226.542,"end":16229.424,"text":"網路上最有流傳的梗圖公司預算減少所以員工旅遊從墾丁改成日本你不覺得這樣的梗圖非常的對我們的政府是個很大的羞辱嗎"},{"start":16250.096,"end":16250.256,"text":"主席"},{"start":16257.424,"end":16257.444,"text":"張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":16289.285,"end":16292.188,"text":"請邱主委你今天有套招齁我看三份報告沒說的結論都是要中國大陸先有善意因為在八月份的時候我們其實就已經記者會的說法就是對等對等你們希望中國大陸那邊有什麼善意"},{"start":16315.497,"end":16341.856,"text":"基本上就剛剛不是提到了嗎就是說大家同時開放團客同時開放對另外一個點你提到是希望對等對不對對你的意思就是中國大陸做什麼你這邊就做什麼他們開放團客過來我們就開放一下基本上就團客的部分是這樣子的我們應該對等的還有很多啦對等的比如說我們我先問你一些對等的事情你知道最近我覺得你是比較鴿派的啦你制高點比較高的希望兩岸和平的"},{"start":16342.952,"end":16351.076,"text":"中國大陸最近有做了幾個比較友善的動作,包括宗教團、文化團、經濟團、體育團,你知道最近有很多團先遷要來台灣嗎?你知道嗎?"},{"start":16351.076,"end":16351.336,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":16351.336,"end":16351.657,"text":"我知道啊。你知道?"},{"start":16351.657,"end":16351.977,"text":"什麼團都沒有過?"},{"start":16351.977,"end":16352.897,"text":"他們自己的考量啊?"},{"start":16364.167,"end":16386.375,"text":"什麼?他申請什麼要自己考量?他要來啊!對啊!那我們當然有啊!我們就有機制可以讓他申請啊!等一下等一下等一下!邱主委等一下等一下等一下!接著接著!第一個你知道他們有很多宗教團、文化團、經濟團他們有申請要來對不對?對!其實這是第一個要件嘛對不對?對!就是那個你說他們沒有來是他們自己踩煞車還是我們這邊"},{"start":16387.728,"end":16406.743,"text":"沒有損就我了解幾個部分我先了解幾個部分譬如說在去年選舉的時候我沒有邀請他們涉台學者要來結果最後沒有來是因為他們北京沒有同意那第二個就是說如果你剛剛講宗教或什麼等等那原則上是由業務目的事業主管機關先審那審的時候結果最後他們說他們撤回"},{"start":16409.535,"end":16411.276,"text":"最近這半年有多少他們這種宗教團或者文化團他們要來"},{"start":16440.185,"end":16464.794,"text":"第一個,有多少團要求要來?申請要來?第二,有幾個團最後是通過的?第三個更重要的,被駁回的有多少?可以嗎?你來講很簡單,明天再告訴我不是,這個恐慌沒有辦法,因為這個是,我剛剛提到了,所有各種的名目的團,它就先由業務、目的事業主管機關所以有可能是教育部的,也有可能是內政部的,也有可能..."},{"start":16466.195,"end":16473.395,"text":"阿所以你說兩岸和平阿對阿結果他們申請要來的大陸的業務單位全部都幾乎都沒有沒有沒有我到底什麼原因我們不曉得"},{"start":16475.015,"end":16490.421,"text":"也有來的你知道很多都沒有過對不對我不曉得因為我們通常陸委會會在什麼我剛剛跟委員報告一下基本上是目的事業主管先審認為可以的時候才會送到1億的審查單位我們都要宣布台灣兩岸這樣惡意螺旋一直在往上走的時候我覺得是我們要怎麼樣這樣開出一扇"},{"start":16499.184,"end":16499.544,"text":"回去我不曉得齁"},{"start":16529.637,"end":16540.123,"text":"一個禮拜,一個禮拜好了因為我剛剛講過了一個禮拜裡面要包括幾個團放行的有幾個最後呈行了更重要的沒有來的"},{"start":16541.223,"end":16542.064,"text":"那你這一次為什麼只有進那個旅行業者?"},{"start":16568.53,"end":16569.27,"text":"在8月份8月份的時候議後的檢討"},{"start":16589.122,"end":16616.638,"text":"我之前已經講過好幾次了我先講完權責單位到底是誰嘛大家要討論你總是知道權責單位到底是誰嘛我之前在立法院總質詢的時候也表示過了入客要來台灣是我們陸委會的權責因為在兩岸條例第15條我們的國人要去大陸原則上是交通部的權責"},{"start":16617.614,"end":16627.784,"text":"你有沒有蛋跑?交通部敢做這個決定啊?陸委會跟邱泰山沒有點頭你隨便去馬路上抓十個人有沒有一個人會贊成說邱泰山陸委會沒有贊成沒有點頭交通部會同意"},{"start":16633.63,"end":16656.855,"text":"基本上我在跟各位說第二個報告第二個報告就是說所有的所以8月份的這個討論呢我們立委會只要負責商務人士要來台的規劃至於團課要出去基本上是由交通部先做他們的規劃好啦我這樣跟你講你沒有點頭他們不會這樣做的我問這個簡單那現在那個業者如果受到"},{"start":16658.035,"end":16664.637,"text":"旅行業應該很多下單都很少對不對?例如說機票已經買了啦、旅館已經訂啦可不可以跟國家求償?"},{"start":16665.509,"end":16668.131,"text":"基本上是我們讓他3月到5月的照樣出團那6月以後就是變到前面提早因為旅遊本身是一個有啊 有人就定期票到定飯店就是定到月7月8月"},{"start":16688.715,"end":16705.405,"text":"阿機票的訂定本身他是一個商業上的,譬如說他訂的到底是有沒有付訂金,還是只是一個appointment?對啦,要是真的有訂金阿,我訂好了,他可以來求償嗎?你要付嗎?應該沒有這個機制吧,我們請他盡量來調整突然突襲一下,我用做生意就是正常就是長期阿,理行社"},{"start":16710.007,"end":16711.168,"text":"你對里營生業也很了解對不對?"},{"start":16711.168,"end":16722.413,"text":"旅遊業者 向委員報告我們當時是叫他們準備嘛準備然後慢慢整理但是並沒有說要完全開放到2月7號以前是請他們準備"},{"start":16725.034,"end":16743.304,"text":"報告委員,事實上我們為了降低這樣的一個衝擊所以3月到5月是可以出團的那6月以後要出團的一個部分的話要有三個措施第一個是說他可以提早提早到3月到5月這邊這是沒有問題的"},{"start":16745.305,"end":16745.625,"text":"邱主委"},{"start":16770.845,"end":16783.152,"text":"你最近煩惱兩岸那個二一螺旋一直往上走嘛兩會長開會他們把那個和平統一拿掉了嘛對不對啊最近金門的事你看他們的那個海警船現在出來都3000噸的對不對我們的小蝦米對大經理要怎樣你覺得"},{"start":16788.44,"end":16813.777,"text":"我講海巡署他們都有基本的SOP就像對岸不管是軍事的或者是海巡的或者是其他的我們大家都有一個基本的SOP你轉角你會反而現在兩岸有擦槍走火嗎我們是希望想要使用非文明方法的戰爭你希望和平啦我是說你會反而不會啦會反而有做什麼我們還是密切關注啦密切關注"},{"start":16815.538,"end":16833.142,"text":"所以沒有準備到什麼進駐什麼準戰爭的那個擦槍走火的那個準備因為還是要有一段期間的觀察因為這還涉及到整個周邊區域的問題啦所以站在陸委會的立場還是希望兩岸是和平的當然當然當然我剛開了一、三團而且增加交流增加交流增加交流這一塊好不好要主流一百萬好謝謝"},{"start":16835.888,"end":16863.715,"text":"好 非常謝謝齊凱委員的質詢非常謝謝您也謝謝我們的主委、次長回應還有副署長但是呢我剛剛聽到林次長您的態度回應的態度我就可以知道我們的旅行業者跟我們的觀光署之間的會議他們是多麼的受到困難重重也會明瞭為什麼那麼多的旅行業者能夠跟我們立法委員來投訴所以這樣的態度基本上"},{"start":16864.375,"end":16865.476,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陸委會邱主委跟交通部您嘗試"},{"start":16894.439,"end":16897.202,"text":"邱主委和林次長現階段陸方沒有同意陸客團來台前,假設我方單方面開放附陸,將造成龐大的觀光逆差。"},{"start":16914.935,"end":16940.923,"text":"是不是什麼時候陸委會的業務跟我們觀光逆差順差都有相關基本上這是交通部寫出來的評估報告那我們陸委會是要中整各部會對於他們這個這個議題的情勢陸委會最主要的業務、功能、方向、目標、定位是什麼我想根據陸委會的組織法我們是對於各部會涉及兩岸的政策的協調"},{"start":16944.224,"end":16954.952,"text":"應對方案的擬定,透過國安的討論之後來做這樣的一個定調如果涉及到法令的部分,因為陸委會大概有將近19個部會是我們的委員"},{"start":16959.375,"end":16979.231,"text":"部長是我們的委員所以如果各部會涉及到兩岸的法令他原則上要在我們的委員會討論完了之後才送到行政院那如果需要送到立法院的再送到立法院來所以我們是在做政策統合的協調那當然在政策統合協調的過程中各單位就必須要把他們的評估報告給我們陸委會"},{"start":16980.852,"end":17008.22,"text":"我們就會召集各單位來做這樣的一個討論如果涉及國安的部分就會邀請國安比如像國安局的也好移民署也好或者是相關的海巡署等等等等大概就是這樣的運作機制所以說現在是3月到5月底開放這個組團到大陸也是陸委會這邊同意這個是當做了政策暫停的時候後續如果有一些問題的要學處理的話那就有目的事業主管機關"},{"start":17008.82,"end":17018.508,"text":"因為這個是事務性的事現在又變目的事業主任機關我剛剛不是講那個層次嗎因為有一個目的事業主任他是負責執行所以本席其實最重要的是說"},{"start":17020.413,"end":17041.153,"text":"今天你這邊回應講是說有造成龐大的觀光逆差我們就想說什麼時候陸委會也會插手考慮到觀光順差與逆差我剛剛不是講嗎?所有各部會的政策評估最重點是說到目前為止我們自己的觀光旅遊產業本身為什麼還是一定要過來就是因為我們也要為我們觀光旅遊產業來發聲"},{"start":17043.095,"end":17061.768,"text":"疫情開始的時候 飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、運輸等相關行業都非常辛苦那好不容易等到疫情結束春暖花開啊 也覺得是說真的兩岸如果可以恢復平穩的一個交流的話 那當然就可以有更平和的一個交流嘛"},{"start":17063.565,"end":17066.208,"text":"現在講的是說政治宣誓來大於這整個政策的發展"},{"start":17081.164,"end":17110.18,"text":"所以說本席才會講是說當突然間說要片面的又要再取消又要再禁止我們的一個旅行社來去組團而我們用的其實很多時候你剛剛也講了就是說這是有什麼國安考慮等等的部分但是我們用的法令我們用的法令是旅行相關的一個法令所以說它其實是沒有直接的關聯的你等於是你們是想要找一個片面的一個法令來去限制我們的一個旅行業者不是嗎"},{"start":17119.746,"end":17139.039,"text":"本席在總質詢的時候就已經跟你講過每一次你都想要本席在跟你回顧的是本席現在跟你講的是未來但你一直都在講的是歷史你一直都在講的是去年的8月但本席現在跟你講的是今年的6月今年6月的時候是要要禁止旅行社在組團去中國大陸對不對沒有"},{"start":17141.365,"end":17154.293,"text":"那現在旅行社6月可以組團去整個大陸嗎?剛剛那個交通部不是講了嗎?那你回答一下,現在旅行社6月可以組團去整個大陸嗎?對方如果明天宣布說他們來,那我們雙方就可以"},{"start":17156.212,"end":17181.741,"text":"那你現在 現在旅遊社可不可以去中國大陸去組團去中國大陸5月底之前都可以啊是啊 所以說你不就是5月底以前你又做一個變更了嗎3月到5月底是因為暫停暫停等待對方的善意回應我現在看得出來了主委你現在就在強詞奪理並且就是不願意直接面對問題對我直接面對問題啊說實在話你沒有直接面對問題我覺得今天張偉排這個專案報告非常的好喔"},{"start":17184.742,"end":17211.42,"text":"就是可以讓國人看到是說不管是我們的大陸委員會或者是我們相關部會的首長都沒有直接面對問題講到什麼事情的時候就會無限的上綱不管是你要說所謂的抗中保台或是你要講好像說什麼把我們的旅行業者送出去外面但最重要的是如果說沒有的話現在很多國人前往到中國大陸還是會變成是說在地下的旅行團不是嗎"},{"start":17212.04,"end":17240.936,"text":"到最後沒有保障的沒有辦法有這種旅行契約的其實受苦受傷受害的還是我們的國人不是嗎我講第一個部分我們到現在為止都沒有禁止國人到大陸去自由行是沒有錯因為這是國人的行動自由國人前往就沒有觀光利差的問題沒有觀光利差的問題但是旅行業去兼具消耗權利和兼具你這樣子完全邏輯不通嘛"},{"start":17241.616,"end":17253.806,"text":"那我剛剛不是在跟你講嗎旅行業它兼具有對消費者的保護還兼具有我們的產業政策啊來次長那所以這個會由交通部來主委我覺得這樣再跟你殉道下去會浪費時間因為你持續在鬧而且沒有辦法針對問題解決問題好也請您次長謝謝次長我想請教在這段時間裡面有多少旅行業者跟你來做陳情"},{"start":17265.978,"end":17285.99,"text":"有沒有接收到,我有觀光,不管是我們次長這邊有跟我們署跟交通部都有陳情開過了幾次會我們2月19號有把業者找來,再做一次台灣的旅行業者,那我們有算過說這個總共的這個旅行業者從業人員有多少人嗎"},{"start":17287.494,"end":17313.751,"text":"我們影響了多少家庭?我們有4000多家旅行業但是超過50%的旅客旅遊有404家那整個現在他們最主要的問題是什麼?是不是認為現在3月到5月是可以組團的但是6月突然又禁止了現在沒有辦法收團那如果說有收團超過6月的狀況那是不是要做取消或調整?那還有6月之後是不是遙遙無期?"},{"start":17315.732,"end":17343.991,"text":"因為現在剛剛我們的這個主委非常的完全不願意回答問題或是說完全的這樣子的一個glue的狀況就講我們現在明明是我們用所謂的觀光條例等等的來限制旅行業者而且那條觀光條例多嚴重啊那條觀光條例講的是什麼國家安全講的是有損害民風對不對那條的立法精神是什麼"},{"start":17345.372,"end":17371.809,"text":"那條立法精神是不是如果說本席沒有記錯的話那條立法精神最主要是我們不希望臺灣我們中華民國的這種旅行團出去外面有從事任何不法的狀況您提的是53條53條是希望發展觀光的過程不能顛入國家的名義不能危害國家利益不可以詐騙消費者三大項目就是我講說那條立法精神當初是什麼"},{"start":17372.99,"end":17373.41,"text":"時空背景"},{"start":17392.711,"end":17400.002,"text":"不管說不好的團、低價的團或是說詐騙的團出去外面然後好像把旅客當成是這種肥羊仔"},{"start":17403.537,"end":17425.706,"text":"對不對 不管是進來的旅客或是我們出去的旅客我們都不希望旅行業用這種低價、消價競爭然後把人家出去、帶出去之後然後結果有這種 譬如說明明是低價團然後就到最後到外面然後又一定要買東西一定要什麼不然的話不放他走甚至還有可能有更危害善良風俗的這種團"},{"start":17426.866,"end":17429.908,"text":"市長,損害國家利益還沒有發生之前,你講的狀況不存在,但是已經實質的是不是造成很多的旅行業者的家庭經濟來損傷了?"},{"start":17455.391,"end":17484.169,"text":"我現在再請教什麼時候還會再跟旅行業者來開會一直都有什麼時候還會再現在討論你的政策要改變要調整到5月底以前還會不會再跟旅行社業者溝通應該這樣講我們政策上都已經很明確這一段期間如果有善業的回應開放大陸的自由行跟團客過來甚至還有王國才部長講說業者可以自己去跟中國大陸講"},{"start":17485.595,"end":17488.196,"text":"政策論述是3月1號到5月31號之間繼續開放旅客團去大陸"},{"start":17506.8,"end":17513.282,"text":"市長你不要再像鸚鵡一樣一直在呼應這件事情你們剛剛一直都不一樣這樣子因為今天的質詢時間都已經到了那是不是請孟凱委員也可以停止您發言不要再在這邊鬼打牆或是持血就如同昭偉剛剛講的真的是學鸚鵡講話"},{"start":17532.668,"end":17552.24,"text":"非常謝謝鳳凱委員質詢,也謝謝我們的主委,謝謝次長,謝謝副署長,謝謝登記發言的委員除了不在場之外,其餘都已經發言完畢了,也詢答結束委員王洪威所提的書面質詢我們列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":17553.42,"end":17566.345,"text":"書面質詢還有未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一週內以書面答覆並複製本會另外我要特別提醒有關本次會議的專題報告的名稱是復陸旅遊團停招決策過程跟後續影響評估的專題報告"},{"start":17575.749,"end":17597.83,"text":"因為陸委會還有交通部對決策的過程還有他們的會議記錄以及後續影響的評估以及對相關觀光等業者還有國人的損失怎麼樣解決處理 擁有交代不清的部分我在這裡要請陸委會、交通部針對本席還有本會委員"},{"start":17599.511,"end":17619.547,"text":"以及其他委員的口頭質詢．要求再補充更詳細的資料．還有損失的評估．還有解決的方案．在會後一週之內．將相關的書面資料．送到本會以及本席．以及本會委員的辦公室．"},{"start":17620.107,"end":17630.313,"text":"以及我們所有的委員好不好現在會議我們到此結束我們現在散會不用再說明了謝謝主委好謝謝我們現在散會立法院有立法院的職權謝謝行政權不要再侵犯到立法權好嗎提醒主委謝謝散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}