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我來講8家其實應該是夠廣了啦"},{"start":121.067,"end":135.97,"text":"八家裡面還是沒有TBS跟東森阿有阿有東森阿有東森阿有中森阿阿TBS不是拒絕往來戶啦對我來講不是不是啦對那你今年八家沒有再想一下還是還有幾間很好阿中市中天阿環宇阿"},{"start":136.471,"end":158.202,"text":"我想我剛才也說過就是說針對媒體的部分我們也會針對我們政策宣導的目的就如同委員所提到我們的廣度要夠那廣度夠的話我們會去了解不同的媒體的他的社群對象是什麼我們盡量開拓這個廣度以這個角度來思考 我知道你的意思現在就是說我現在主要的主要就是市場嘛"},{"start":158.882,"end":160.003,"text":"你有看過這張圖嗎?我看過。你有看過?"},{"start":187.063,"end":215.48,"text":"這是你農業部長一個單位做的這樣這一張在最近的農村流傳的很廣很多農民來抗議我先跟你討論一下右邊是我做的左邊是你做的啦左邊這一張你可以做你要做宣傳我覺得OK可是它有很多的地方真的是有汙名化供糧收購都跟我同感這樣你說短期內糧價上漲面積會增加面積增加你看右邊這一張"},{"start":217.247,"end":241.018,"text":"你在100年的時候調了3塊錢,它隔一年面積增加多少?才0.7公頃耶。再往後面一年,也是0.8啊。有像你說的面積增加很多嗎?沒有對不對?第二個,你這個文宣品為什麼會是引起農民那麼多抗議?你要嘛你就每一個年度都有啊。你從民國99年100年,結果你一下跳到103,那一下又跳107。"},{"start":249.366,"end":267.434,"text":"媒體我們先溝通,面積沒有像這個圖上面講的增加那麼多嗎?我們的表決列正確。我一直強調就是說,你提高公糧的那一年度大概沒有影響,但是後來就會兩三年之內就會引起"},{"start":268.697,"end":275.158,"text":"我們有一個共識就是慢慢來嘛我現在給你看的就是100年調高那一次大概3年3年都還是很低好ok那3年事實上不是因為公糧收購啦你只要乘起重費要去推了一個叫做倒座直接給付嗎"},{"start":296.158,"end":315.264,"text":"你這個土裡面最嚴重的農民是要抗疫最多的就陳其中在105年的時候開始在試行這個所謂的這個直接擠布的時候他導致去種的人增多嘛這個跟宮廷說過已經沒有關係了可是你把他扣在這邊你看我右邊給你框起來105年到106到107他為什麼本來已經降下來了對不對他為什麼又跑上去"},{"start":323.479,"end":335.233,"text":"就是因為有陳其中這個新的這個措施啊那你後來發現不對陳其中後來把這個取消掉啦結果你都沒有把陳其中做的到座直接起步這個事情把它解釋清楚"},{"start":336.731,"end":355.11,"text":"農民跟工人收購不就是被黑鍋了嗎?是不是這樣?我想不是這樣子的齁。所有的稻作的價格跟稻作的面積基本上就是一個供需的部分。然後最重要的就是產地價格。你看以今年來講,現在目前的產地價格已經達到百台金已經一千兩百。"},{"start":356.952,"end":358.113,"text":"部長,所以你是不是忽略了那個105年開始?"},{"start":386.608,"end":408.592,"text":"市辦106年開始擴大然後107年前面實施的倒座直接給付你看看所有的波動都是在那幾年啊你看你看你左邊你先出去的圖你看喔你看左下角這個他的這個公糧收購這個量啊本來你調高之後慢慢慢慢可是他成長很慢喔一下飆很高到54萬公噸57、56你整年出什麼事就陳其聰的這個"},{"start":411.786,"end":418.939,"text":"到時候直接起步阿那你再看喔往上面看往上面看你說開始一般的這個糧價開始往下掉對不對也是那幾年阿"},{"start":420.785,"end":448.75,"text":"所以你先：我告訴你,你先回去研究這個我都研究過,我們研究得非常清楚了你從你這張圖你也可以看得出來當你面積提高的時候價格就降低對,所以我們現在是希望一個合理的價格是在24萬公頃阿董哥面積為什麼會增加?就是因為整體上給了一個沒有,這裡有時候還有停灌還有很多天災的關係性影響所以沒有辦法所以我們在這個處理的時候我們絕對不會把單一因素放進去"},{"start":450.171,"end":450.551,"text":"所以你從這個圖看得出來"},{"start":472.014,"end":472.394,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":489.807,"end":501.741,"text":"公糧收購那時候影響已經很低了那時候是因為農業部陳其中做了一個到座直接集會那你說不是單一OK我同意你要把整個整體去談嘛可是你不能完全歸罪在這個公糧收購對不對"},{"start":503.064,"end":521.281,"text":"好不好 這個再研究一下啦 這張圖我跟你講 這張圖是很多專家、很多農民 我了解 我跟委員報告齁 我也不是把所有的面積提高歸最在公糧的價格提高 我也沒有這樣講說百分之百就是公糧提高 我們的目標是讓我們的稻農所得大家都能夠"},{"start":522.677,"end":525.54,"text":"我今天提出這個質詢是我希望你要看得到到時候直接幾乎這個影響。"},{"start":544.121,"end":544.321,"text":"發言委員：發言委員："},{"start":561.713,"end":561.853,"text":"發言委員："},{"start":576.045,"end":581.088,"text":"媒體在問說現在目前的雞蛋的行情一下高一下低是不是要農業部啟動聯合稽查那我的回應是說"},{"start":594.694,"end":607.817,"text":"當它的起伏有超出異常的時候,我們會啟動聯絡基查,而且要有證據的時候,我們就會聯絡基查。現在是沒有,沒有特別的一個異常。就是如果有異常,你查清楚才會聯絡基查。有證據才會去啟動聯絡基查。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":318,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時16分）請部長。"],["主席：請農業部陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。今天朝野立委都在問你宣傳費用的問題，你知道前幾天卓院長有特別說不允許宣傳費過度集中的標案，你知道嘛！對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["張委員啓楷：了解嘛！其實剛才朝野立委也在問你這個，我去調了資料，我看你今年3、4、5、6這幾個月，你們宣傳費所有的標案都集中在幾個電視台，三立部分，包括什麼用科技翻轉產業的養鵝人、重新出發農業專區的推廣，都是三立、三立、三立，還有民視、年代、中華等，現在我們臺灣電視台很多，有TVBS、東森、臺視、中視……"],["陳部長駿季：東森也有啊！我跟委員報告，我們今年整個宣傳費大概有8家的媒體進來……"],["張委員啓楷：我剛才有聽你說，但是……"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們並沒有集中在1家、2家的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼3月跟6月都這4家？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你是以後要增加就對了，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們今年度就有8家，不同的月份根據不同的主題，我相信會有不同的電視台或是媒體有興趣，所以這個部分我們講「集中」這兩個字，對我來講8家其實應該是夠廣了啦！"],["張委員啓楷：8家裡面還是沒有TVBS跟東森啊！"],["陳部長駿季：有啊！有東森啊！"],["張委員啓楷：有東森喔？TVBS不是拒絕往來戶啦？他們應該有機會？"],["陳部長駿季：對我來講不是。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦！你今年8家，再想一下，還有好幾家很好啊！中視、中天、寰宇。"],["陳部長駿季：我想我剛才也說過，針對媒體的部分，我們也會針對我們政策宣導的目的，就如同委員所提到我們的廣度要夠，廣度夠的話，我們會去了解不同媒體的社群對象是什麼，我們儘量開拓廣度，以這個角度來思考。"],["張委員啓楷：我知道你的意思，我現在調的資料就是這4家嘛！過度集中，這個就是違反卓院長說的，你現在說有8家，對不對？那我更進一步要求你，你剛剛講的，我跟你共識是一樣的，我們再多廣一點，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["張委員啓楷：包括TVBS可能想一下，好不好？或者其他一些優質媒體，寰宇啦這些。來，另外我們來談內容，請部長看左邊這張圖，你有看過這張圖嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我看過。"],["張委員啓楷：你有看過，這是農業部哪一個單位做的？這張在最近的農村流傳得很廣，很多農民來抗議。我先跟你討論一下，右邊是我做的，左邊是你做的，左邊這一張，你要宣傳我覺得OK，可是它有很多地方真的是有污名化公糧收購，我就說個最簡單的，你說短期內糧價上漲，面積會增加，以面積增加來說，你看右邊這一張，你在100年的時候調了3塊錢，隔一年面積增加多少？才0.7萬公頃欸，再往後面一年也是0.8萬公頃，有像你說的面積增加很多嗎？沒有，對不對？第二個，你這張圖、這個文宣品為什麼會引起農民那麼多抗議？要麼你就每一個年度都有，你從民國99年、100年，結果一下跳到103年，一下又跳107年，所以真相沒有顯露。","部長，第一個，面積的部分我們先溝通，面積並沒有像這個圖上面講的增加那麼多，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我們的表絕對正確。"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能把它變成每一年……"],["陳部長駿季：我一直強調的就是，提高公糧的那一年度大概不會有影響，但是後來的兩、三年之內就會引起移動，那個板塊移動以後，最高就到27萬公頃，從你的數據看起來也是快要到27萬公頃，它不是瞬間拉抬，而是漸進的，三年之內大概會拉上來。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們有一個共識，就是慢慢來嘛！我現在給你看的就是100年調高那一次……"],["陳部長駿季：大概三年，三年到四年之內。"],["張委員啓楷：三年都還是很低，OK，那三年事實上不是因為公糧收購，你知道陳吉仲後來去推了一個叫做稻作直接給付嗎？你這個圖裡面最嚴重的，也是農民現在抗議最多的，就是陳吉仲在105年開始試行所謂稻作直接給付的時候，導致種的人增多，這個跟公糧收購已經沒有關係了，可是你把它扣在這邊。部長，你看這個圖，我右邊框起來的105年到106年到107年，本來已經降下來了，為什麼又跑上去，就是因為有陳吉仲的這個新措施，後來發現不對了，陳吉仲後來就把這個取消掉，結果你們都沒有把陳吉仲推的稻作直接給付這個事情解釋清楚，農民跟公糧收購不就背黑鍋了嗎？是不是這樣？"],["陳部長駿季：我想不是這樣子的，所有的稻作價格跟稻作面積基本上就是一個供需的部分，然後最重要的就是產地價格，你看以今年來講，目前的產地價格已經達到百臺斤一千二百五十多了，已經快接近計畫價格了，因為前一陣子有颱風，導致我們的稻作產量變低，所以當面積跟產量壓到一定程度的時候，產地價格一拉高，農民不管是有繳公糧的或沒繳公糧的都會受益，這是我們基本上的論點，就是希望提高產地價格來支撐所有農民的收益。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你是不是忽略了105年開始試辦、106年開始擴大，然後到107年全面實施的稻作直接給付？因為看起來所有的波動都是在那幾年啊！你看左邊的圖，左下角的這個公糧收購量，本來你調高之後是慢慢的成長，但一下飆很高，到54萬公噸，然後57萬公噸、56萬公噸，那幾年發生什麼事情？就是陳吉仲的稻作直接給付啊！你再往上面看，一般的糧價開始往下掉也是那幾年啊，所以你先……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，從……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，部長，我跟你說，你先回去研究……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我都研究過，我們研究得非常清楚了，從你的這張圖也可以看得出來，當面積提高的時候，價格就降低，對不對？所以我們現在希望一個合理的面積是在24萬公頃。"],["張委員啓楷：當初面積為什麼會增加？就是因為陳吉仲給了一個……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，這裡面有時候還有停灌以及很多天災的關係去影響，所以我們在處理的時候絕對不會把單一因素放進去。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛，公糧收購就不是單一的，你為什麼……"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，所以我說產地面積跟產量、產地價格從你的圖表也可以看得出來，面積提高，價格就下降，這是一定的，所以我們的重點就是想辦法維持面積，想辦法提高我們的產地價格，這是我們一起努力的目標。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你從這個圖看得出來，增加的面積沒有像你講的那麼多啊，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：有到27萬公頃啊！"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼27萬公頃？你先看右邊這個圖，不要看左邊的，你們在100年調高了之後，101年只增加了0.7萬公頃，再隔一年增加0.8萬公頃，對不對？這個有共識嘛，對不對？後來有一個地方暴增了，我現在是跟你講，公糧收購那時候的影響已經很低了，那時候是因為農業部陳吉仲做了一個稻作直接給付，那你說不是單一，OK，我同意，你要把整個整體去談，可是你不能完全歸罪在公糧收購，對不對？好不好？這個再研究一下啦！我跟你講，這張圖是很多專家、很多農民……"],["陳部長駿季：我了解，我跟委員報告，我也不是把所有的面積提高都歸罪在公糧的價格提高，我也沒有這樣講說百分之百就是公糧提高，我們的目標是讓我們的稻農都能夠有好的一個所得，所以這個部分，我想跟委員說明的就是，我們未來會基於我們現在的「1集、2轉、3加3」，然後去看我們的公糧政策要怎麼配套，在年底的時候我們會有一個比較好的資料。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天急著提出這個質詢是希望你要看得到稻作直接給付的影響，不要單獨的……"],["陳部長駿季：這個我了解，這個我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你的基準點是對的，做出來決策才會是對的……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你才有可能達到像卓院長那天協調的時候所說的，每公斤要提高5塊錢，好不好？把基準點弄得更清楚一點。"],["陳部長駿季：謝謝委員的……"],["張委員啓楷：然後我明確要求一下，你這個圖有那麼多人有疑問，你能不能做一張新的？把每一年度都寫上去，好不好？你不要一下子從100年跳到103年，103年又跳到107年，好不好？每個年度讓大家清楚的看到。"],["陳部長駿季：好，我們可以把年度的資料拉出來。"],["張委員啓楷：好，最後我用一點時間問一下，因為記者一直在問，最近雞蛋供過於求，對不對？可是價格還在漲，你說要去聯合稽查，是不是？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要怎麼去解決這個雞蛋……"],["陳部長駿季：不是、不是，是媒體在問說，目前的雞蛋行情一下高一下低，是不是要農業部啟動聯合稽查？我的回應是說，當它的起伏有超出異常的時候，我們會啟動聯合稽查，而且要有證據的時候，我們就會啟動。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：最近有沒有？最近有沒有符合你剛剛講的……"],["陳部長駿季：我們現在看起來是沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：還沒有？"],["陳部長駿季：現在是沒有特別的異常。"],["張委員啓楷：還沒有就對了？"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：就是如果有異常，你查清楚才會聯合稽查？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有證據才會去啟動聯合稽查。"],["張委員啓楷：最近那個雞蛋的問題，老實講，雞農還是很可憐，要多幫忙，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：我了解。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：在鄭天財委員答詢之後，我們會休息。","下一位質詢請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}