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鬧雙包就是說國民黨內部呢對於財化法修法呢也有不同的意見然後有國民黨黨團的人表示說這個"},{"start":31.577,"end":58.065,"text":"黨團幹部他們又有一個共識就是說未來財務法修法的時候他們本來是要挖走6千多億現在國民黨自顧又提出來就是說要挖走這個3千多億的版本然後以修正冬季的方式提出來而且這個會拿掉首都稅的3%那不曉得部長有沒有得到類似的訊息"},{"start":60.249,"end":86.098,"text":"跟委員報告我們也並沒有看到這所謂的修正的一個部分之前只是在媒體有看到對啊那所以你看國民黨的版本這個最後強行通過版本是挖了大概6612億那現在呢國民黨內部又有不同的意見不曉得是不是有一些要選縣市首長的人這個良心發現還是怎麼樣不知道"},{"start":86.678,"end":104.33,"text":"所以說呢這個第一個拿掉首都稅的3%那第二個呢就是說他們是說過去啦台灣省政府的財源如果回歸給地方的話換算下來大概也是3200億左右啦那部長怎麼看委員報告"},{"start":108.342,"end":123.824,"text":"第一個我們財劃法的部分除了剛剛您剛剛講那個垂直分配之外也就是中央釋出多少錢第二個是水平分配水平分配很重要一個用意在裡面就是要調劑營區以及均衡地方的發展"},{"start":124.224,"end":144.712,"text":"因為每個地方的稅收狀況不一樣有好十幾個縣市他事實上不管地方稅或中央稅他所收起的部分都不夠稅出那所以這個需要靠水平分配的時候做調劑的營需然後讓各個縣市裡面的國民他其實都可以享受相同水平的一個復工這個我知道那現在就是說"},{"start":145.792,"end":172.251,"text":"看來國民黨內部也有不同的意見有6千多億有3千多億這個圖就是目前在那個黨團版送出財委會是這樣的一個分配的模式就是如您這個畫面上那就是這個是財政部臉書上面的資訊那我看了一下就是說國民黨版本在水平分配的問題這方面第一個3%說要給臺北市這是獨厚特定的地方政府"},{"start":179.054,"end":194.24,"text":"2.67%是按照人口數比例分配,所以對於人口較少的地方相對不利,擴大城鄉的差距。請教一下部長,按照國民黨的版本,水平分配問題是不是就像您所講的那樣?"},{"start":196.516,"end":210.346,"text":"確實根據這樣的一個黨團版本裡面我們根據他的水平分配所定出來的我們也去做過試算確實讓人口多的縣市取得相對的就相當的大的一個金額而對於部分地方政府可能因為他佔了67%就排擠到其他的一個分配"},{"start":213.268,"end":215.588,"text":"現在已經被送出委員會了接下來是草野協商那在草野協商的部分的話財政部這邊要怎麼去做因應"},{"start":240.25,"end":260.126,"text":"這個財化法的修正是一個非常重大的一個法案的一個修正應該要審慎的規劃不管是垂直分配的部分我想在公聽會裡面許多學者們都已經提出來錢跟權要同時均衡考量也就是說你必須要有四權先劃分清楚然後再考慮支出"},{"start":260.947,"end":283.184,"text":"施出確認以後才有所謂的收入怎麼樣分配但是如果只考量把錢做怎樣的挪移而沒有考慮事權的分配的話其實第一個就在隨時分配上就已經失衡了那第二個水平分配的部分我們一再談到就是說必須要做到調劑營需均衡區域的發展這個我知道這個我們一直在談這個事跟錢要一起來談但是就是跟你講就是說"},{"start":287.688,"end":293.952,"text":"現在如果國民黨硬要推不管他是6000多億還是3000多億那財政部自己有沒有因應的版本?"},{"start":296.357,"end":319.294,"text":"這個要審慎的規劃所以我們目前其實財政部之前已經開過兩次會召集地方政府來開會對於指標的部分我們其實努力的一直請各地方政府表達意見然後我們希望能夠縮小旗艦凝聚最大的一個共識在水平分配的部分先要把它安排好然後再考慮市權要如果要市權要重新調整的話再考慮支出面"},{"start":319.734,"end":319.754,"text":"（僅詢答（"},{"start":339.163,"end":362.991,"text":"好 這個喔 因為我是蠻悲觀的啦如果按照這個國民黨這樣子要強推上次三分鐘就出去未來在朝野協商大概也不會就是說這個就算財政部有自己的版本或是說有自己的一些建議跟想法我覺得在朝野協商大概也會被擰壓過去啦但是我是認為說你們該要去"},{"start":364.503,"end":368.842,"text":"這個距離力真的還是要想辦法讓社會各界來知道"},{"start":369.946,"end":394.214,"text":"那這個我再請教一下這個之前齁這個也很多委員在問你們這個雲端種樹去的這個抽獎活動那我先問一下3個禮拜你們有一個檢討報告出來齁那檢討報告出來就是說你們說這個是跟廠商或是跟財政部內部的員工都沒有關係但是有一個抽獎資格的限定這個會有點問題"},{"start":395.914,"end":423.695,"text":"就是說呢 這個廠商的抽獎的程式調高了參與者的重簽權重給予優先抽獎的機會那這個廠商是可以自己去調這個優先這個抽獎的機會給予他重簽的權重嗎這個是你們的規定呢還是廠商自己去做處理的那因為這樣子處理是不是也讓這一個最後那四會得獎的機會大大的增加"},{"start":425.438,"end":453.64,"text":"委員報告我們的報告裡面有提到也就是說廠商在城市設計上他的邏輯其實是不是要已經跟我們原來要希望達到的一個目的已經偏離了所以這個部分呢我們也請調查局再調查有沒有相關不法的一個情勢那所以說這個是他自己設計的對跟你們沒有關係他也沒有來跟我們的主辦機關來做報告那他為什麼要做這樣的設計他有跟你們說明嗎"},{"start":455.682,"end":476.936,"text":"呃在事前也沒說明啊沒有我說事後之後你們在做調查的時候行政報告這部分的話為什麼會有這樣的設計欸報告委員事後他來說明的時候他是說希望能夠很快抽出來因為這個要現場直播開講我想這個部分的設計啊我們應該會進一步的再來去做相關的追究"},{"start":477.315,"end":485.023,"text":"不是啊,這個齁,不是什麼很快抽出來,我意思是說你們行政報告出來,你們認為是說跟你們內部的人跟廠商是沒有關係的。"},{"start":486.747,"end":516.067,"text":"我們第一個要確認就是說重複中獎從大獎的這四位要先釐清是不是我們內部的人跟廠商的相關的本人配偶及三星那但是這部分有沒有問題這個部分我們查出來是沒有都沒有都沒有說廠商去調高權重的調高權重這個部分跟我們原來就是說我們有抽獎有這個目的就譬如說我們希望你用載具用財政部的APP或者是說你要用我們的那個調查報告哪時候可以出來"},{"start":516.887,"end":530.795,"text":"調查報告這個部分我們的行政調查部分已經出來但是調查局的那個調查結果到這個時間我們沒有辦法確定但是我們還是會對這個案子我們要會做全盤的檢討以及要做未來一定要做更好的改善"},{"start":531.893,"end":556.174,"text":"這家大家現在還在質疑認為說你們還是沒有給出一個很完整的一個說明這個財政部其實這個抽獎然後是這個辦活動尤其是統一發票不應該受到質疑這個你們要做很大的一個檢討那請問一下因為明年統一發票的經費你們有增加增加了187億左右那現在我問一下你們這個雲端發票"},{"start":559.373,"end":561.656,"text":"每一次每兩個月嗎?還是每個月?每兩個月開獎一次開獎的你說這個500塊現在是幾組啊?"},{"start":569.082,"end":577.947,"text":"5百塊是多少?幾百萬組?因為那個是...我看你們最新知道245萬組這個是這個是兩個月的嗎?還是全年的啊?245萬組這個是全年的嗎?不是一期一期的吧一期的嗎?一期一期一期一期中獎的5百塊有245萬組那你們明年規劃勒?因為你們這個那個經費有提高啦統一發報告經費"},{"start":596.898,"end":606.912,"text":"給獎的獎金有提高啦那所以明年會提高到幾組勒?雲端發票部分我們會再算然後等經費過就是說預算通過以後預算通過之後會增加到幾組這怎麼會算不出來勒?"},{"start":612.303,"end":612.323,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":629.896,"end":650.875,"text":"不會低於這個當然是不會低於啊你們自己編的預算都增加啦當然是不會低於啊好我們再來計算一下不是啊大概是多少啊會多少到300萬組要看經費的結果這樣經費就是有給你們你們自己就已經增加了啊"},{"start":651.977,"end":673.165,"text":"怎麼會算不出來勒那我們會委員我們這個部分第一個會不低於現在的這個組數然後按照不低於這廢話啊對好我們再算一下以後跟委員報告不是啊那大概是幾組勒300萬組沒有一下增加這個為什麼會算不出來好我們再算一下我問題是為什麼這個會算不出來"},{"start":682.668,"end":701.995,"text":"委員我跟您報告因為我們通常都要去算一下今年的對齡率因為我們是一個經驗法則簡單講雖然我開舉個例子我開250萬組這種獎人有多少人但不一定每個人都會來領獎那我們都會去算過去那一般的領獎比例大概是多少"},{"start":702.335,"end":702.575,"text":"預算提案"},{"start":719.22,"end":744.682,"text":"總會算不出來說明年會增加多少萬組我們為了要嚴謹起見我們算好之後我們都會召開記者會然後會對外說明要用公開說明那這個就是一個承諾了所以我們會比較嚴謹啦那大家估啊估不出來有許因為我現在手上沒有數字那今天會談你們的預算啊怎麼會手上沒有這個數字呢今天是會談你們的預算"},{"start":745.489,"end":754.152,"text":"啊沒有現在是只是答詢而已我當然知道啦我願意我可以我們回去以後如果順利通過我們"},{"start":771.724,"end":772.845,"text":"陳玉珍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":609,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時38分）謝謝主席，我們請莊部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["李委員坤城：部長好！請教一下，這兩天我有看到新聞上面寫，國民黨財劃法的版本鬧雙胞！就是國民黨內部對於財劃法修法也有不同的意見，有國民黨黨團的人表示，黨團幹部又有一個共識，就是未來財劃法修法的時候，他們的版本本來是要挖走六千多億，現在國民黨智庫又提出來要挖走三千多億的版本，將以修正動議的方式提出來，而且會拿掉首都稅3%，不曉得部長有沒有得到類似的訊息？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們並沒有看到這個修正的部分，之前只是在媒體有看到。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！你看國民黨最後強行通過的版本大概是挖了6,612億，現在國民黨內部又有不同的意見，不曉得是不是有一些要選縣市首長的人良心發現，還是怎麼樣，不知道，所以他們新的意見第一個是拿掉首都稅3%；第二個，他們說過去臺灣省政府的財源如果回歸給地方的話，換算下來大概也是3,200億左右，那部長怎麼看？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們財劃法的部分除了您剛剛講的垂直分配之外，也就是中央釋出多少錢。第二個是水平分配，水平分配裡面很重要的用意就是要調劑盈虛以及均衡地方的發展，因為每個地方的稅收狀況不一樣，有十幾個縣市不管是地方稅或中央稅，它所收取的部分都不夠歲出，所以這個需要靠水平分配做調劑盈虛，讓各個縣市裡面的國民都可以享受相同水平的公共服務，這個一定要做。"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，現在看來就是國民黨內部也有不同的意見，有六千多億、有三千多億的部分……"],["莊部長翠雲：在水平分配的部分，目前送出財委會的黨團版分配模式就是如您畫面上的圖示。"],["李委員坤城：這個是財政部臉書上面的資訊，就是國民黨版本在水平分配的問題，第一個，說3%要給臺北市，這是獨厚特定的地方政府；第二個，它有67%是按照人口數比例分配，所以對於人口較少的地方相對不利，擴大城鄉的差距。我想請教一下部長，如果按照國民黨的這個版本，水平分配的問題是不是就像您所講的這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們根據這樣的黨團版本所訂出來的水平分配也去做過試算，確實讓人口多的縣市取得相對相當大的金額，因為它占了67%，就排擠到其他的分配，對有些地方政府事實上是會造成一些不公的，尤其是會造成城鄉差距，人口多的地方會越吸引越多，因為它拿最多，所以它能夠做其他建設，人就一直往那邊移動，其實對城鄉的均衡發展並不是很好。"],["李委員坤城：現在已經被送出委員會了，接下來是朝野協商，在朝野協商時財政部要怎麼去因應？"],["莊部長翠雲：財劃法的修正是一個非常重大的法案修正，應該要審慎的規劃，首先是垂直分配的部分，我想在公聽會裡面許多學者們都已經提出來，錢跟權要同時均衡考量，也就是說你必須要事權先劃分清楚，然後再考慮支出，支出確認以後才有所謂的收入怎麼樣分配，但是如果只考量把錢做怎樣的挪移，而沒有考慮事權分配的話，其實第一個在垂直分配上就已經失衡了。","第二個水平分配的部分，我們一再談到必須要做到調劑盈虛，均衡區域的發展，所以這個部分我們認為這個議題要……"],["李委員坤城：這個我知道，我們一直在講事跟錢要一起來談，但是現在如果國民黨硬要推，不管是六千多億還是三千多億，財政部自己有沒有因應的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個要審慎的規劃，其實財政部之前已經開過兩次會，召集地方政府來開會，對於指標的部分我們一直努力請各地方政府表達意見，我們希望能夠縮小歧見，凝聚最大的共識，在水平分配的部分先把它安排好，如果事權要重新調整的話，要考慮支出面，然後才會考慮到收入面要怎樣分配，我覺得這個部分必須要審慎的規劃。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！所以我就在問部長，萬一按照這個版本下去推的話，那麼行政院、財政部也要有準備啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我們一定會去做詳細的說明。"],["李委員坤城：我是蠻悲觀的，如果按照國民黨這樣子要強推，上次三分鐘就送出去，未來在朝野協商就算財政部有自己的版本，或是有自己的一些建議跟想法，我覺得在朝野協商大概也會被輾壓過去啦！但是我認為你們該要據理力爭的還是要想辦法讓社會各界知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：會，詳細的我們……"],["李委員坤城：我再請教一下，之前也有很多委員在問這個「雲端種樹趣」的抽獎活動，上個禮拜你們有一個檢討報告出來，你們說這個跟廠商或是跟財政部內部的員工都沒有關係，但是有一個抽獎資格的設定會有點問題，廠商的抽獎程式調高了參與者的中籤權重，給予優先抽獎的機會，廠商可以自己去調優先抽獎的機會，給予其中籤的權重嗎？這個是你們的規定，還是廠商自己去做處理的？因為這樣子處理，是不是也讓最後那四位得獎的機會大大的增加？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的報告裡面有提到，廠商在程式設計上的邏輯是不是已經跟我們原來希望達到的目的有所偏離，這個部分我們也請調查局在調查有沒有相關不法的情事。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個是它自己設計的，跟你們沒有關係？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，它也沒有來跟我們的主辦機關報告。"],["李委員坤城：它有跟你們說明它為什麼要做這樣的設計嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：在事前也沒說明。"],["李委員坤城：我是說事後，事後你們在做行政報告調查的時候，它有沒有說明為什麼會有這樣的設計呢？"],["吳局長蓮英：報告委員，事後它來說明的時候是說希望能夠很快抽出來，因為這個要現場直播開獎。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分的設計我們應該會進一步再來做相關的追究。"],["李委員坤城：不是啦！這個不是什麼很快抽出來，我的意思是說，你們的行政報告出來，你們認為跟你們內部的人、跟廠商是沒有關係的。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們第一個要先確認、釐清重複中大獎的這四位是不是我們內部的人或跟廠商相關的本人、配偶及三親等……"],["李委員坤城：這部分有沒有問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們查出來是沒有，都沒有。"],["李委員坤城：我是說廠商去調高權重的這個部分。"],["莊部長翠雲：調高權重這個部分跟我們原來抽獎的目的，譬如說我們希望你用載具、用財政部的app，或者是你要用我們的帳號等等……"],["李委員坤城：調查報告什麼時候可以出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的行政調查部分已經出來，但是調查局的調查結果，這個時間我們沒有辦法確定，但是我們還是會對這個案子做全盤的檢討，以及未來一定要做更好的改善。"],["李委員坤城：大家現在還在質疑，認為你們還是沒有給出一個很完整的說明，財政部辦活動、抽獎，尤其是統一發票，不應該受到質疑，這個你們要做很大的檢討。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，一定要做檢討。"],["李委員坤城：因為明年統一發票的經費你們有增加，增加了187億左右，請問一下，雲端發票每兩個月開獎一次，你們現在500塊的獎項是幾組？"],["莊部長翠雲：500塊是幾百萬組，因為那個是雲端發票專屬獎項。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們最新的數據是245萬組，是不是？這個是兩個月的嗎？還是全年的？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，245萬組。"],["李委員坤城：這個是全年的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，一期的吧！"],["李委員坤城：一期的嗎？一期中獎500塊的有245萬組？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：那你們明年的規劃呢？因為你們統一發票的經費裡給獎的獎金有提高，所以明年雲端發票的部分會提高到幾組呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會再算，等預算通過以後……"],["李委員坤城：預算通過之後會增加到幾組，這怎麼會算不出來呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實會增加的話，有時候到下半年也會持續增加，因為要看上半年的兌獎情形。"],["李委員坤城：你們增加50萬組了，現在是245萬組。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我是問，你們給獎的經費增加啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會低於現在的組數。"],["李委員坤城：當然是不會低於啊！你們自己編的預算都增加了，當然是不會低於啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來計算一下，再向委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：不是，大概是多少，會到300萬組嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：要看經費審查的結果。"],["李委員坤城：經費你們自己就已經增加了啊！怎麼會算不出來呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，第一個，會不低於現在的組數。"],["李委員坤城：這廢話啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再算一下以後跟委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：不是啊，那大概是幾組呢？300萬組？"],["莊部長翠雲：一下增加……"],["李委員坤城：這個為什麼會算不出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再算一下。"],["李委員坤城：我的問題是，為什麼這個會算不出來？署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：不好意思，跟委員報告，通常我們都要算一下今年的兌領率，因為這是一個經驗法則，簡單舉個例子來講，我開250萬組，中獎人有多少人，但不一定每個人都會來領獎，那我們會去算過去……"],["李委員坤城：一般的領獎比率大概多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：要看，如果是雲端發票，兌領率就很高，我們這幾年……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果是紙本發票……"],["李委員坤城：雲端發票會直接通知啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果有下載app，它會直接……"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我的意思是說……"],["宋署長秀玲：但有一些……"],["李委員坤城：但這個怎麼會算不出來明年會增加多少萬組？"],["宋署長秀玲：會，會，但為了嚴謹起見，我們算好之後，會召開記者會對外說明，這要公開說明，而這就會是一個承諾，所以我們會比較嚴謹。"],["李委員坤城：大家估一估啊！估不出來？"],["宋署長秀玲：委員是不是容許……因為我現在手上沒有數字。"],["李委員坤城：今天排審你們的預算，怎麼會手上沒有這個數字？今天是不是要談你們的預算？"],["宋署長秀玲：沒有，現在就只是詢答而已。"],["李委員坤城：我當然知道啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：委員我可以……我們回去以後，如果順利通過，我們……"],["李委員坤城：好啦！那你們多久時間可以算出來？"],["宋署長秀玲：這樣好不好，一個月？"],["李委員坤城：一個月？"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，不要最後我又是看到記者會才知道。好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席（李委員彥秀代）：謝謝，我們結束李坤城委員的質詢。","接下來請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}