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們也要有我們的因應方案啊你不能臭名這樣子一直三次被列啊"},{"start":261.715,"end":289.05,"text":"我需要檢討的部分 那你叫我們遠洋漁業那些人怎麼辦?對 我就需要那個檢討的部分我們已經在檢討但是有一個非常重要的就是他們一直希望我們遠洋漁工納入我們的牢記法可是在我們的實務上因為我們是境外僱用境外解僱我們所有的那個牢檢的部分衛生安全的部分是沒有辦法跟國內的牢記法在一起但是我們確定了我們用同樣的精神但是我們用其他的方式去"},{"start":290.151,"end":293.513,"text":"護長你知道這個嚴重性喔我知道血汗海鮮的這個聲名狼藉如果被擺開在國際間會非常嚴重的影響到我們整個遠洋漁業"},{"start":305.27,"end":310.952,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":331.42,"end":335.624,"text":"非營業部分：農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業作業基金及農田水利事業"},{"start":355.42,"end":378.158,"text":"這個送到學校如果沒有冷藏庫半個小時之後就要倒掉所以學校也沒有辦法那老師也雞飛狗跳那現在竟然搞了一個最後討論了最後誰不負責教育部也不負責農業部也不負責到底誰要負責說那由學校你自行去決定你要不要現在還是如此嗎"},{"start":381.301,"end":385.762,"text":"現在誰決定我學校沒有冷藏庫我也不敢說我不要啊還有叫學生一次帶八瓶的保酒乳保酒乳跟我們的鮮乳一樣嗎帶了八瓶的保酒乳回去給誰喝啊你可以這樣子亂花錢嗎這個有幫助到我們的落農嗎那現在誰決定為什麼要限學校的校長於不義沒有人敢說不要"},{"start":407.826,"end":431.111,"text":"發了保酒乳這怎麼回事啊這麼多錢亂花我跟委員報告齁就是學校在這段時間特別是老師在協助的部分我們非常感謝但是在整個的整個的一個學校訂購的部分齁保酒乳的確高於鮮乳他跟現在目前當然啊我沒有冷藏庫我當然要保酒乳啊不要在內行的公寡行為啦要怎麼辦啊我們後續我想這個政策要不要持續"},{"start":435.892,"end":459.623,"text":"這個政策一定會持續,但是做法,對,做法我們會改變,對,我先謝謝委員,那委員也提供一些意見,就是說我們基本上不會再用今年,像現在目前的共同供應契約,我們後續我們會再去更謹慎的考慮兩個前提,我們新的政策絕對不會讓學校的老師增加負擔,"},{"start":460.603,"end":460.923,"text":"人家都很願意耶!"},{"start":489.873,"end":502.704,"text":"您部長應該去研擬方案,不管你談戰也好,不管你什麼方案,什麼時候可以研擬方案出來?我想我們在這個月底會跟行政院報告,報告完以後我們就會...這個月底您這個研擬方案絕對不能再打擾我們的這個學校,那真正的目的是要照顧我們的農農,這個是目的,好。"},{"start":514.494,"end":520.937,"text":"再來,萊豬扣關我們國內的國產豬肉競爭那好不容易當時的農委會,現在的農業部我們四年的養豬白益養基金輔導我請教部長,你到現在今年剩下51億"},{"start":536.485,"end":539.768,"text":"我請一堆的人在那邊排隊照著你的程序在走準備"},{"start":564.048,"end":592.158,"text":"我跟委員報告就是委員非常關心這個部分我們在114年到117我們爭取了79億的部分大概這個經費現在行政院在核定那特別是委員關心的我們從養豬場一直到肉攤肉攤的冷鏈的系統那這個肉攤的冷鏈系統我們後續也會增加我們的補助的一個數量來達到你現在告訴我兩個原則第一個也就是你目前所做的"},{"start":593.318,"end":612.096,"text":"你持續在爭取預算。第二個,人家已經申請的,你是務必要讓人家達證成功。對不對?我們計劃核定的話,我們一定會想辦法讓它經費到位。這個我們一定會來努力。就是持續把它完成嘛。那為什麼你的128億當時,為什麼會落差那麼大?是錢亂花?"},{"start":617.581,"end":632.857,"text":"還是怎麼回事呢?還是挪用到其他的地方去?本席具體覺得邏輯很奇怪。我跟委員報告,128億的百億基金是專款專用,不能移到別的地方去。對啊,那為什麼會落差那麼大呢?"},{"start":633.882,"end":633.902,"text":"謝謝楊委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時56分）謝謝主席，邀請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們討論一個國際民生的議題，美國勞動部在10月5號發布最新童工及強迫勞動製品清單，再度將臺灣的遠洋漁業列入，你有看到這則訊息嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那怎麼辦？為什麼會發生這種事情，而且是第三度，為什麼？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，美國勞動部那邊近年度有來臺灣做一些瞭解，實際上經過他們瞭解後，他們也確認我們其實有做非常大的努力，特別是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但他們一樣這麼給我們公布啊！我們要怎麼應對呢？請教。"],["陳部長駿季：我想第一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣遠洋漁業繼2020年之後又首度上榜，是第三次遭受列名，這是怎麼回事啊？是真的假的啊？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個，針對他們勞動條件的部分，他們是希望我們遠洋漁工的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管別人怎麼樣，人家已經列名了，目前臺灣這麼努力、我們的漁民這麼努力，這樣子的努力卻還是唯一被列名的產業，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們會分幾個部分，第一個，針對漁船上面的勞動條件，我們做了非常大的努力，跟遠洋漁船船主協商，所以我們提高了很多漁民在漁船上作業的勞動條件，做了很大的改善。第二個，在生活條件的部分，當他下船以後，我們給他更多自由的空間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在所說的，跟他們跟你講的完全不搭嘎，他們說外籍漁工遭仲介以不實工資契約欺騙，被迫就仲介費簽下借貸契約……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：背上了龐大的債務，而且身分證被扣留，每天18到22小時在惡劣的環境下工作，遭受到肢體暴力跟言語的凌辱，甚至他的薪資跟住宿費也都被非法扣除。他們講的這些到底是真的還是假的？你不要講你自己的。"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我瞭解……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人家提列的這些……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，第一個部分，有關仲介相關費用部分，因為我們遠洋漁工是境外僱用、境外解僱，都是在境外的對方國那邊在處理的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你查不到？"],["陳部長駿季：所以我們現在透過外館，希望能有更好的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那他所列的這些惡名，到底屬不屬實？本席就很憤慨啊！到底是真的還是假的？"],["陳部長駿季：他們是有一些誤會，一直……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有一些誤會的話，你有沒有澄清？"],["陳部長駿季：我們有澄清了部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候澄清的？"],["陳部長駿季：在他們來臺灣的時候，我們也澄清……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是10月5號發布的，你是什麼時候澄清的？"],["陳部長駿季：在發布之前，我們就已經經過非常多次的會議跟溝通了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，請你針對本席的提問。10月5號發布了這個之後，所講的內容你認為有不實，你有沒有發出澄清？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，我們也跟AIT……因為AIT的部分，我們黃次長也親自……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有發出澄清？如果依照他敘述的，這個真的是很恐怖耶！"],["陳部長駿季：我們應該有一些新聞稿在處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這事很恐怖耶！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我再一次請教，因為現在臺美21世紀貿易倡議正在談判，談判到勞動專章，這個是我們的機會耶！如果他講的是不屬實，我們要強制抵制、強制抗議啊！怎麼可以隨便給我們列名，如果萬一是有，我們也要有我們的因應方案啊！"],["陳部長駿季：了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能一直臭名這樣子，三次被列啊！"],["陳部長駿季：我想需要檢討的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你叫遠洋漁業那些人怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：需要檢討的部分，我們一直在檢討，但是有一個非常重要的，就是他們一直希望遠洋漁工納入我們的勞基法，可是在實務上，因為我們是境外僱用、境外解僱，所有勞檢的部分、衛生安全的部分沒有辦法跟國內的勞基法在一起，但是我們確定了，我們用同樣的精神，但是用其他的方式去加強勞動力的檢查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你知道這個嚴重性嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：血汗海鮮的聲名狼藉如果被攤開在國際間，會非常嚴重影響到我們整個遠洋漁業，它如果被市場淘汰，那你怎麼辦？這個是部長必須要很憂心的，而且必須去應對的，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們非常重視這個問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你很重視，你必須要詳實去研議方案……"],["陳部長駿季：對，其實我們從7月開始……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：跟我們的業者好好去討論，好不好？這很重要。"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你把討論的方案也給本席。同時要再跟你討論2025年的紐西蘭進口鮮乳，它是零關稅，也因為這樣的一個政策，所以我們努力要幫助我們的酪農，4年44億，從今年的9月份開始提供給國小學生跟附設幼兒園。但是發生了那麼大的事情，在前一段時間大家都一直在討論，學校也沒有冷藏庫，送到學校如果沒有冷藏庫，半個小時之後就要倒掉，所以學校也沒有辦法，老師也雞飛狗跳。現在討論到最後是誰不負責？教育部也不負責、農業部也不負責，到底誰要負責？說由學校自行去決定要不要。現在還是如此嗎？現在誰決定？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：學校沒有冷藏庫，他也不敢說他不要啊！還有叫學生一次帶8瓶的保久乳，保久乳跟鮮乳一樣嗎？帶了8瓶的保久乳回去給誰喝啊？你可以這樣子亂花錢嗎？真的有幫助到我們的酪農嗎？現在誰決定？為什麼要陷學校的校長於不義？沒有人敢說不要，發了保久乳，這怎麼回事啊？這麼多錢亂花！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，學校在這段時間，特別是老師在協助的部分，我們非常感謝，但是在整個學校訂購的部分，保久乳的確高於鮮乳，它跟目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然啊！它沒有冷藏庫，它當然要保久乳啊！不要再內行的說外行話啦！怎麼辦啦？"],["陳部長駿季：後續我想我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個政策要不要持續？"],["陳部長駿季：這個政策一定會持續，但是作法會改變。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好不容易找到4年44億要幫助我們的酪農、幫助我們的孩子，搞得這樣子！"],["陳部長駿季：我先謝謝委員，委員也提供一些意見，我們基本上不會再用像目前的共同供應契約……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：後續我們會再更謹慎地考慮，有兩個前提，我們新的政策絕對不會讓學校的老師增加負擔，一定會送到班上；第二個部分就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰送？"],["陳部長駿季：我們會用其他的方式，包括用現在的團膳方式去搭配……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去合作啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是合作的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你看為了校園安全，我們拜託便利商店，學校旁邊有便利商店，他們都有主機，我說你加碼，鏡頭對著學校，有什麼事情就可以馬上調，這個資料就有了，人家都很願意耶！部長應該去研擬方案……"],["陳部長駿季：對，我們現在已經在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管團膳也好、不管什麼方法，什麼時候可以研擬方案出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在這個月底會跟行政院報告，報告完以後我們就會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個研議方案絕對不能再打擾學校。"],["陳部長駿季：對，兩個原則……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真正目的是要照顧我們的酪農，這個是目的。"],["陳部長駿季：是，一定會用這種方式。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：再來是萊豬叩關，我們國內的國產豬肉競爭，它好不容易、好不容易，當時的農委會、現在的農業部，編列4年的養豬百億基金輔導轉型。我請教部長，到今年剩下51億，128.3億4年，剩下51億，但還是有很多人排隊申請不到，為什麼？當時的一百二十八億多，你們一定有去針對我們的量體需求，今年剩下51億，接下來要怎麼做？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一堆申請的人在那邊排隊，照著你的程序在走，怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，委員非常關心這個部分，我們在114年到117年爭取了79億，大概是這個經費，現在行政院也在核定。特別是委員關心的，從養豬場一直到肉攤的冷鏈系統，而肉攤的冷鏈系統，我們後續也會增加補助的數量，來達到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在告訴我兩個原則，第一個，也就是你目前所做的，你持續在爭取預算；第二個，人家已經申請的，你務必要讓人家達陣成功，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：一定，計畫核定的話，我們一定會想辦法讓經費到位，這個我們一定會來努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是持續把它完成。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["主席（陳委員超明代）：楊委員，麻煩一下……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你的128億當時為什麼會落差那麼大？是錢亂花還是怎麼回事呢？還是挪用到其他的地方去？"],["陳部長駿季：我們128億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席具體覺得邏輯很奇怪。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告……"],["主席：時間已經超過很多了。"],["陳部長駿季：128億的百億基金是專款專用，不能移到別的地方去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！那為什麼會落差那麼大呢？"],["陳部長駿季：這個牽涉到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你也把現在補助的以條列式去列出來……"],["陳部長駿季：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們希望能夠幫助我們所有的豬農……"],["陳部長駿季：我知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真正到肉攤的冷鏈都可以完整，這是我們從一而終在努力的方向嘛，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：了解，我想楊委員的這個建議我們一定會採納……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["陳部長駿季：全程的部分，我們把資料提供給委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：請我們召委邱志偉委員質詢。他等得很不耐煩，沒有關係啦！像這個時間就是延長2分鐘再加1分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-14","speakers":["邱志偉","林岱樺","邱議瑩","鄭正鈐","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","鍾佳濱","林俊憲","牛煦庭","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","蔡易餘"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於農業部及所屬單位預算部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算關於農業部主管，非營業部分：農業作業基金、農田水利事業作業基金、\n農業特別收入基金及農民退休基金（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}