{"error":false,"id":["157024"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157024,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157024","日期":"2024-11-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-20-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-18T11:28:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-18T11:36:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e87d6dc42d64db9e38b06883678c1ed2d0dd5656bc25be71a67420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:28:04 - 11:36:20","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預算部分暨融資財源調度。（僅詢答）\n【預算提案截止時間：11月25日（一）中午12時】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.43596875,"end":1.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":3.1697187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2878437500000004,"end":4.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.29596875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.387218750000002,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.44471875,"end":33.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.73034375,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.227843750000005,"end":44.783468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.59346875,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":50.790968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.69346875,"end":61.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.19846875,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.126593750000005,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.38784375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.38721875,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.79596875,"end":73.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.43721875,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.00659375000001,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.54659375,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.39034375,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.78596875000001,"end":94.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.46846875,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.49721875,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.56409375000001,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.64784375,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.01721875000001,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.03784375000001,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.72096875000001,"end":121.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.51409375,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.48346875000001,"end":129.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.04034375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.61409375,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":130.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.28909375,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.20846875,"end":137.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.64659375000002,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.79409375,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.78971875000002,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.95409375,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.97909375,"end":144.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.90284375000002,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.06284375,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.22284375,"end":150.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.06221875,"end":151.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.56846875000002,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.11221875,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.86721875,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.05284375000002,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.15409375000002,"end":157.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.58846875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.79909375,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.50346875,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.27971875,"end":163.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.02221875,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.21596875,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.34659375,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.78534375,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.51096875000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.65409375000002,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.99534375000002,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.16409375,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.82159375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.11659375000002,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.79159375,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.58284375000002,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.00846875000002,"end":199.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.54846875,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.77596875,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.66159375,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.59784375,"end":206.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.00284375,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.76221875000002,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.93096875,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.36034375000003,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.34721875000002,"end":217.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.87034375000002,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.38909375,"end":221.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.84034375000002,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.67971875,"end":224.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.64159375000003,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.71721875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.92346875,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.99909375000001,"end":231.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.82596875000002,"end":240.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.82034375,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.37659375,"end":246.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.04721875,"end":252.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.70034375000003,"end":254.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.35409375,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.48471875,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.57721875000004,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.79221875,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.45846875,"end":262.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.72409375,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.04846875000004,"end":266.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.61346875000004,"end":273.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.97971875,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.44784375,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.22346875,"end":281.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.40909375,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.62409375000004,"end":286.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.22659375,"end":289.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.80846875000003,"end":290.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.52971875000003,"end":292.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.91346875,"end":296.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.09846875,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.67596875000004,"end":304.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.48096875000005,"end":306.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.71721875000003,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":317.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.83346875,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.54221875,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.08596875,"end":326.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.74784375,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.02596875,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.40534375000004,"end":331.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.72596875000005,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.58659375,"end":335.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.46784375000004,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.91471875,"end":339.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.09596875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.15846875,"end":346.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.72784375000003,"end":352.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.53284375000004,"end":353.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.59159375,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.32096875,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.70034375,"end":365.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.79659375,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.64846875,"end":374.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.47909375,"end":375.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.17909375000005,"end":375.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.80346875000004,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.30534375,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.18596875000003,"end":390.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.80096875000004,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.63971875000004,"end":402.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.41534375000003,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.83659375,"end":407.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.28784375000004,"end":425.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.38221875000005,"end":429.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.60096875000005,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.41471875,"end":434.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.30909375000005,"end":438.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.89971875000003,"end":435.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.05159375000005,"end":435.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.30034375,"end":436.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.65846875000005,"end":441.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.67909375000005,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.41721875,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.17221875,"end":449.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.12534375,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.03659375,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.93096875000003,"end":456.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.03159375,"end":456.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.73596875000004,"end":459.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.76096875,"end":467.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.89159375,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.00846875,"end":468.70034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.88596875,"end":476.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.42909375000005,"end":485.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.68909375000004,"end":487.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.27971875000003,"end":489.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.11471875,"end":491.39721875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.458,"end":8.144,"text":"列席了政府監事長官員、備長工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請莊部長和負稅署宋署長。委員好。部長好、署長好。我從你們的土地石料陳列稅啊,有看到一個土地稅的一個實測,來看一下。來。"},{"start":25.849,"end":44.26,"text":"國務卿先生說這個漲價不能是地主的不勞而獲,平均地權要造價徵稅,漲價要歸公。請問漲價歸公的邏輯是什麼?是因為地主他的地價不是他的貢獻造成的,是因為政府的公共建設,是因為社會的繁榮,是這樣的嗎?"},{"start":45.609,"end":62.453,"text":"沒有錯,漲價歸功就不是自己的努力支出的,然後因為整個成長以後,那這個漲價的部分應該要歸功那地價除了會上漲,除了社會的發展,還有政府的建設投資之外,還有什麼會決定地價的不一樣?下一頁"},{"start":63.548,"end":81.845,"text":"當然買賣買賣啦不是啦是關於我們都市計畫土地的劃分啊你是住宅區商業區工業區還是農業區對不對是啊所以這是由誰決定的地方政府決定的嗎政府對產業發展有需求都市計畫更動地主被動接受好壞全民運氣你就這樣公平嗎"},{"start":83.647,"end":109.619,"text":"當然因為你劃分到不同的都市計畫的區域以後自然對於地價的估算上就有不同了是啊那地主他完全不能決定被動接受如果被劃成農業區呢對使用限制也不一樣好那我們來講農民最近的國土計畫引起農民很關切農民啊假設呢有兩兄弟一個繼承糧田他的農地呢目前的國土計畫他不可能變耕用來做農業使用但是氣候變遷造成農產欠收他不見農農為生啊"},{"start":111.482,"end":126.329,"text":"但是如果他的地地繼承到的土地是貧瘠的經過國土計劃法都市計劃手段後呢他可能怎樣化為非農業使用資產暴增你覺得這樣子繼承到農地難道是一種原罪嗎繼承到糧田難道是一種原罪嗎你認為這樣合理嗎"},{"start":128.61,"end":129.791,"text":"當然不是個人的原罪"},{"start":158.615,"end":175.852,"text":"你作為一個財長怎麼幫助稅法我們來看一下來人民為什麼要繳稅因為要繳稅繳稅是什麼人民要對國家有貢獻嘛對是不是我的收入越高我繳的稅越多對如果我繳的稅超過我應該對國家的貢獻會不會退稅"},{"start":178.868,"end":196.776,"text":"因為如果你是超過的話當然是會有稅稅我是個農民我幫國家維持糧食生產維持糧田讓他做農業生產但是田富的價值很低啊過去的提案遠少於農民維持國家糧田的貢獻所以我們國家才停征田富嘛對不對"},{"start":198.072,"end":202.615,"text":"財政部絕對不會停徵稅啦,一定是,行政院認為說,農民對國家的貢獻遠大於他的田富,所以就不用繳了,對不對?那你財長你會支持嗎?"},{"start":217.889,"end":240.414,"text":"停徵填富你支持吧?你不會要求要復徵填富嗎?不會啊,不會。好,那我們來看一下。你知道土地稅法22條有一個規定吼,農業用地是徵收填富,對不對?但是都市土地,它如果是屬於公共設施尚未完整前仍然做農地使用者,它是不是不收地價稅改徵填富?"},{"start":243.752,"end":264.985,"text":"對阿改正阿田戶就不用繳嘛所以就免稅嘛對不對假設我是一個工廠老闆我買了一塊工業區的土地但是因為道路還沒有完俊我沒辦法開始生產營運所以我就不會有營業所得稅不只如此如果我要維持繼續農業生產國家不會給我增地價稅還不會給我收田戶對不對是不是這樣子"},{"start":269.306,"end":276.789,"text":"對啦我都市計畫內如果化為工業用地道路會完盡再我繼續做農業使用你是不徵稅的嘛22條寫得很清楚不熟嗎沒錯啦沒錯好但是如果我的農地上因為政府沒有給我做農業灌溉設施所以我的農地的生產力很低落那你政府要怎麼辦"},{"start":291.567,"end":304.479,"text":"你不能給我免稅啊我已經怎樣我已經是免徵填付啦你怎麼補償我工廠的老闆可以免徵地價稅只要他繼續做農業使用我的農地上政府沒有做給我做灌溉設施你怎麼補償我這個部分在主管的農業部應該會有相關的一個類似他們有他們的一個做法你猜到了一部分但我再跟你提醒一個部分有沒有聽說過負所得稅"},{"start":319.566,"end":329.282,"text":"負所得稅曾經在冒險的一個資料裡面,泰國的他姓一個陳總理提出負所得稅,用這個方式來解為社會不平等,有沒有聽過?"},{"start":331.448,"end":353.73,"text":"有喔?不只不用繳稅,國家要給他錢。什麼情況下呢?來給你看。您說的沒有錯,綠色環境給付,這是農業部的。因為農民他幫國家維持優良的糧食生產的環境,所以呢,會給他綠色給付。但這個綠色對地給付呢,比照司法院所認為的每一個人民的必要生活費呢,是遠遠不足啊。"},{"start":354.651,"end":364.927,"text":"也就是說我們的司法院認為一個人民他應該維持生活的最低收入如果換在農糧署現在綠色環境給付的對地補助商是不夠的你覺得怎麼辦"},{"start":368.877,"end":390.06,"text":"這個部分我想農業的部分他們會去做考慮的對農民的一些補助接下來靠你哈我請你看一下如果農民的年金所得加上農業部給他的綠色環境給付還不足以維持司法院所認為的生活所必須有沒有可能我們用負所得稅的方式來思考一下怎麼樣維持農民的基本生活"},{"start":391.877,"end":392.538,"text":"主席站起來了"},{"start":413.6,"end":437.983,"text":"請言譽．如果經常農地有農用市時．當農民的年淨所得．加上綠色環境給付等計劃政策補助．少於司法院所定的每月生活所必須數額的年總和時．請用副所得稅的概念．來政策補足農民的基本生活．請就這個可行性提一個書面報告給本席．一個月內可以嗎．一個月夠喔．你講得這麼爽快．我看你對副所得稅還不是很清楚勒"},{"start":439.713,"end":445.032,"text":"需要多少時間?署長需要多少時間?署長一個月夠嗎?付所得稅喔!"},{"start":446.389,"end":475.509,"text":"委員,負所需其實真的很少國家採取。我知道,但是這個觀念上要思考。而且負所需是制度性的,它並不是針對特定行業給予的。那可以給我們三個月嗎?可以,三個月的時間。就你剛剛跟部長的答覆了解一下怎麼樣救臺灣的農民,他的農地的情況已經免徵填庫了,但是他的農業所得仍然遠低於司法院所規定的生活所得。農業部的政策補助,綠色對地補助,再怎麼樣也不能滿足他。"},{"start":476.529,"end":485.615,"text":"我們要解決農民因為農地被限制不得做其他使用但是農業生產又很難維持他基本生活這個困境國家要面對好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時28分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請莊部長和賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。我從你們的土地史料陳列室有看到一個土地稅的史料，國父孫中山先生說，土地漲價不能是地主的不勞而獲，所以要平均地權、要照價徵稅，漲價要歸公。請問漲價歸公的邏輯是什麼？是因為地主的地價不是他的貢獻造成的，是因為政府的公共建設、是因為社會的繁榮，是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，漲價歸公就不是自己的勞力、努力支出的，然後因為整個成長以後，這個漲價的部分應該要歸公。"],["鍾委員佳濱：地價會上漲除了社會的發展，還有政府的建設投資之外，還有什麼會決定地價不一樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然買賣啦，對不對？"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是啦，是關於我們都市計畫土地的劃分，你是住宅區、商業區、工業區還是農業區，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這是由誰決定的？地方政府決定的嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，政府。"],["鍾委員佳濱：產業發展有需求，都市計畫更動，地主被動接受，好壞全憑運氣，你覺得這樣公平嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然因為你劃分到不同的都市計畫的區位以後，自然對於地價的估算上就有不同了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊，那地主他完全不能決定，被動接受，如果被劃成農業區呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：它的使用限制就不同，使用限制也不一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來講農民，最近的國土計畫引起農民很關切，假設有兩兄弟，一個繼承良田，他的農地依目前的國土計畫，他不可能變更用來做農業使用，但是氣候變遷造成農產欠收，他不見得能維生。但是如果他的弟弟繼承到的土地是貧瘠的，經過國土計畫法、都市計畫手段後，它可能化為非農業使用，資產暴增，你覺得這樣子繼承到農地難道是一種原罪嗎？繼承到良田難道是一種原罪嗎？你認為這樣合理嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不是個人的原罪。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看怎麼改變呢？你來看一下，現在的農民就算繼承了良田，生產力再高、豐收，他的銷貨收入可能還遠不如一塊貧瘠的農地去種光電，或者都市計畫之後地價暴增，你知道這個情況嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：了解！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你的權責內願不願意幫助農民？"],["莊部長翠雲：幫助農民當然是政府整體的職責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你怎麼幫助？你作為一個財長，怎麼幫助？稅法！我們來看一下，人民為什麼要繳稅？因為人民要對國家有貢獻嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的收入越高，我繳的稅越多。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我繳的稅超過我應該對國家的貢獻，會不會退稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：依照法規如果是超過的話，當然是會退稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我是個農民，我幫國家維持糧食生產，維持良田，讓它做農業生產，但是田賦的價值很低，過去的田賦價值遠少於農民維持國家良田的貢獻，所以我們國家才停徵田賦嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：田賦是停徵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：田賦停徵是你決定的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：田賦停徵應該是行政院吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：行政院決定的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：財政部絕對不會停徵稅啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：那是法規權責……"],["鍾委員佳濱：一定是行政院認為農民對國家的貢獻遠大於他的田賦，所以就不用繳了，對不對？那你財長會支持嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您說哪一個？"],["鍾委員佳濱：停徵田賦你支持吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！現在就停徵，應該……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不會要求要復徵田賦吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那我們來看一下，你知道土地稅法第二十二條有這個規定，農業用地是徵收田賦對不對？但是都市土地如果屬於公共設施尚未完竣前，仍然做農地使用者，是不是不收地價稅，改徵田賦？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！是改徵，但田賦就不用繳嘛！所以就免稅嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：假設我是一個工廠老闆，我買了一塊工業區的土地，但是因為道路還沒有完竣，我沒辦法開始生產營運，所以我就不會有營業所得稅，不止如此，如果我繼續維持農業生產，國家不會給我徵地價稅，還不會給我收田賦對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：工業區的土地在公設內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊！都市計畫內如果劃為工業用地，道路未完竣時，我繼續做農業使用，你是不徵稅的嘛！第二十二條寫得很清楚，不熟嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：依照條文是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒錯啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。但是如果我的農地上，因為政府沒有給我做農業灌溉設施，所以我的農地生產力很低落，那政府要怎麼辦？不能給我免稅啊！我已經是免徵田賦啦，你要怎麼補償我？工廠的老闆可以免徵地價稅，只要他繼續做農業使用，但我的農地上，政府沒有給我做灌溉設施，你怎麼補償我？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分在主管的農業部應該會有他們相關的作法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你猜到了一部分，但我再跟你提醒一個部分，有沒有聽說過負所得稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：有聽說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有關負所得稅，曾經在貿協的一個資料裡面，泰國的他信前總理提出負所得稅，用這個方式來解決社會不平等，有沒有聽過？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不止不用繳稅，國家還給他錢，什麼情況下呢？來，給你看，您說得沒有錯，綠色環境給付──這是農業部的，因為農民幫國家維持優良的糧食生產環境，所以會給它綠色給付，但這個綠色對地給付比照司法院所認為的每一個人民必要生活費是遠遠不足啊！也就是說，我們的司法院認為一個人民應該維持生活的最低收入，如果換成農糧署現在綠色環境給付的對地補助事實上是不夠的，你覺得怎麼辦？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關這個部分，我想農業的部分，他們會去考慮對農民的補助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業已經盡力了，接下來要靠你。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請你看一下，如果農民的年淨所得，加上農業部給他的綠色環境給付，還不足以維持司法院所認為的生活所必需，有沒有可能我們用負所得稅的方式來思考一下怎麼樣維持農民的基本生活？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關所得稅，我想第一個，如果所得沒有到一個課徵標準的話，並不會課所得稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以才叫負所得稅啊！所得不到一定標準，不只不要課稅，我還給你錢。"],["莊部長翠雲：因為可能所得稅是零，我覺得應該從另外一個補助或補貼的方式來做，才會比較及時啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你好好去思考一下為什麼有負所得稅的概念，我就結論了，因為主席站起來了。請研議：如果經查農地有農用事實，當農民年淨所得加上綠色環境給付計畫等政策之補助少於司法院所訂每月生活所必需數額的每年總和時，請用負所得稅概念以政策補足農民的基本生活；請就這個可行性提一個書面報告給本席，一個月內可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一個月夠喔？你講得這麼爽快，我看你對負所得稅還不是很清楚欸！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：署長，需要多少時間？署長，一個月夠嗎？負所得稅喔！"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，負所得稅其實真的很少國家採行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，但是觀念上要思考，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：而且負所得稅是制度性的，它並不是針對特定行業的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以才要研究嘛！"],["宋署長秀玲：可以給我們三個月嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以。三個月時間。"],["宋署長秀玲：謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就你剛剛跟部長的答復，了解一下怎麼樣就臺灣農民的農地情況已經免徵田賦了，但是他的農業所得仍然遠低於司法院所規定的生活所得，農業部的政策補助、綠色對地補助，再怎麼樣也不能滿足他，我們要解決農民因為農地被限制不得做其他使用，但是農業生產又很難維持基本生活，這個困境國家要面對，好不好？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。接著我們請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":212,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-9","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","羅明才","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關財政部賦稅署、臺北國稅局、高雄國稅局、北區國\n稅局及所屬、中區國稅局及所屬、南區國稅局及所屬、關務署及所屬、國有財產署及所屬歲出預\n算部分暨融資財源調度（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310101_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}