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,"text":"人工智慧使用的一個規範我們訂定一個作業原則提供給我們同仁來做指引這目的也是要第一個兼顧到AI的應用第二個要合規的應用然後能保障合乎我們現行的一個規定所以這個部分是我們在制度面上另外我們針對剛剛委員所提的美國這個針對軍情單位"},{"start":601.284,"end":608.088,"text":"你也可以看看他們有哪一些他既然公佈我們會參考你們應該滾動式的趕快去看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加的安全委員我們這個內部已經有做過研究所以我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的一個精神我們會檢討我們內部的一個機制朝向更加穩健的方式來發展"},{"start":628.198,"end":649.79,"text":"這是務必一定要達證我們也期勉相關單位因為這個到目前為止人民的生活離開不了離開不了這一環但是人民已經有很多離開不了又很不安心這不是一個民主國家應該要有的一個層次這個感受啊所以一定要加油好不好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:13.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:15.530000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:15.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:17.251000+08:00","text":"首先還是請數發部。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:21.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:21.833000+08:00","text":"請次長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:21.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:22.933000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:22.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:34.658000+08:00","text":"我看你從幾位委員的詢答當中你很輕鬆，但是民眾都很緊張，所以我還是願意讓你講，到底是怎麼回事？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:35.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:46.332000+08:00","text":"因為從幾位委員的詢答當中還是沒有得到真正你要說明的內容，所以我願意讓你講清楚，到底怎麼回事？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:46.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:48.299000+08:00","text":"從禮拜五開始。OK！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:49.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:54.882000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員，就是禮拜五晚上，我們數發部陸續接到一些民眾的通報……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:54.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:57.424000+08:00","text":"對，粉專被下架了，當然大家都會很緊張嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:58.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:06:59.445000+08:00","text":"還會衍生到哪些位置呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:06:59.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:01.005000+08:00","text":"大家都很緊張。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:01.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:01.926000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:01.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:04.687000+08:00","text":"連公部門──證交所也影響到了，這怎麼辦？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:04.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:04.687000+08:00","text":"請做說明。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:08.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:13.028000+08:00","text":"是，當下我們接到這些通報以後，我們就是馬上去處理，去聯絡臉書，把這些正牌的粉專讓它恢復。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:13.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:13.228000+08:00","text":"你們馬上去聯絡嘛？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:13.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:14.429000+08:00","text":"對，我們去跟臉書還有這些財經網紅們聯絡，就是處理這件事情，當下其實我們也不知道發生了什麼事情，因為數發部在那段時間裡面並沒有發公文或者是用其他任何方式去通知臉書說要求要把那些財經粉專下架。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:14.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:17.397667+08:00","text":"所以這些下架跟你是沒有關係的？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:17.397667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:20.366333+08:00","text":"你要說明的是這個？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:20.366333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:23.335000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯、沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:23.335000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:26.303667+08:00","text":"請刑事局來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:26.303667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:29.272333+08:00","text":"你請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林副局長信雄","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:29.272333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:07:32.241000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:07:32.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:04.736000+08:00","text":"到目前為止大家還是有很多的質疑，到底有沒有故意的情節？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:04.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:05.016000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:05.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:06.357000+08:00","text":"到目前為止就你們了解。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林副局長信雄","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:06.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:08.217000+08:00","text":"目前了解是沒有故意的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:09.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:12.459000+08:00","text":"到目前為止了解是沒有故意的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長信雄","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:12.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:20.362000+08:00","text":"就我們了解是臉書公司有個內部篩選機制，他們單位之間聯繫的時候發生了問題，所以不小心……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:21.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:23.723000+08:00","text":"所以以警政單位你們的說法是臉書自己出的問題？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林副局長信雄","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:23.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:24.723000+08:00","text":"他們內部的聯繫機制有發生的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:24.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:25.723000+08:00","text":"確定是他們內部機制出的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林副局長信雄","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:25.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:26.723000+08:00","text":"目前了解是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:26.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:27.723000+08:00","text":"目前了解是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:27.723000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:28.723000+08:00","text":"好，你請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:24.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:24.943000+08:00","text":"請國安局長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:24.943000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:08:45.508000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:08:45.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:10.011000+08:00","text":"你聽到現在，大家現在對於數發部的期待也很高，當然對我們警政單位的期待都很高，因為它是人民的保母，尤其有AI的情況之下，所以本席要來請教國安局，你面對AI可能帶來的資安外洩、資安危機，政府要怎麼去因應？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:10.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:18.417000+08:00","text":"你光是一個粉專下架，衍生的恐慌是這麼動盪，那你要怎麼做？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:21.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:31.649000+08:00","text":"報告委員，針對AI帶來的風險，原則上我們的報告裡面提到兩塊：一個資安，一個可能是假訊息的威脅。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:32.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:47.067000+08:00","text":"我先從資安這個角度來看，面對這種生成式AI的發起，可能要從它會構成什麼樣的威脅來談我們怎麼來因應。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:47.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:55.677000+08:00","text":"首先它會快速的產製惡意程式；第二個，社交電郵會更加仿真，以前語文是障礙……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:55.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:09:58.639000+08:00","text":"幾乎要百分之百。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:09:58.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:10:02.561000+08:00","text":"生成式已經不是障礙，而且它快速還可以持續學習優化。是、對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:10:03.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:10:16.169000+08:00","text":"面對這樣的攻擊，我們要從三個角度來看，第一個就是應該要先有機制面，有關機制面，我相信政府機關都已經有一個既有的機制，接下來是要落實強化。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:10:17.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:10:42.599000+08:00","text":"舉個例子，第一個，剛剛數發部次長也有提到，我們因應這種邊界設備可能遭受AI的漏洞攻擊，目前我們看到這是越來越常見，所以邊界設備應該要做好相關的防護，導入零信任，甚至機敏的資訊能夠做實體隔離，避免駭客能夠直接碰觸。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:10:42.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:10:59.544000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是要加強人員的資安意識，包括剛剛講的社交工程的電郵越來越仿真、越來越精準，所以只要加強人員的資安意識，遇到來路不明的不要去點，甚至應該要落實單位的資安規範。另外……","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:01.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:07.907000+08:00","text":"如果以你目前給本席所做的說明，你根本沒有辦法解決什麼問題，請你暫停。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:09.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:18.135000+08:00","text":"我還是請數發部次長，你認為剛剛國安局的說法當中，在數發部，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:19.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:20.832000+08:00","text":"抱歉，委員請問是哪一個部分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:20.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:31.542000+08:00","text":"而且在整個駭侵跟漏洩的部分是非常恐怖，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？OK！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:31.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:56.983000+08:00","text":"我們數發部在AI的方面，第一個當然就是說我們要提供各種工具給內政部警政署等或者是其他政府單位，來對抗這些不管是假訊息或者是AI的風險，當然在數位方面，數發部是主責單位，所有這些方面都是我們的責任。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:57.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:11:58.385000+08:00","text":"抱歉，請問委員您指的……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:11:58.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:02.750000+08:00","text":"都是你的責任，我請問你們的橫向聯繫目前執行的情況怎麼樣？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:02.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:03.712000+08:00","text":"OK嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:03.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:03.812000+08:00","text":"應該還可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:03.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:04.172000+08:00","text":"應該還可以，為什麼發生了這麼多事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:09.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:10.400000+08:00","text":"您是說這件事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:11.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:12.722000+08:00","text":"指的是周末這件事情？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:13.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:14.103000+08:00","text":"而且瞬息萬變。是、是。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:14.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:24.150000+08:00","text":"所以我在這邊，尤其剛剛國安局特別講到了，因為世界各國是無國界的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:24.150000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:25.150000+08:00","text":"是，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:24.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:31.255000+08:00","text":"是無國界的，在這樣的情況之下，你要怎麼樣跟橫向所有相關單位聯繫？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:31.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:33.957000+08:00","text":"如何與各國加強這一些相關的情資？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:36.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:12:53.861000+08:00","text":"是，事實上最近一直有一些友好國家包含一些先進國家，還有一些開發中的民主國家，他們都來臺灣跟我們在AI以及資安方面做很多的探討，因為現在很多的資安攻擊都是跨國的，而且會是跳轉的。對。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:12:54.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:01.006000+08:00","text":"譬如說，它要攻擊臺灣的話，它可能先攻擊美國，從美國再跳轉來攻擊臺灣，也可能先攻擊菲律賓，然後再……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:01.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:01.607000+08:00","text":"當然，所以可以看到這個嚴重性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:01.607000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:02.707667+08:00","text":"是，這個是非常嚴重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:02.707667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:03.808333+08:00","text":"非常嚴重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:03.808333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:04.909000+08:00","text":"所以我們有很多的橫向溝通，但是這方面的溝通通常是我們數發部下屬的資安院做這種溝通，這些溝通因為涉及到國安，所以並不是每一次的會面、每一次的討論都會公開，而且這個討論的細節更是不能隨意在媒體公開。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:04.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:36.978000+08:00","text":"次長，不用說每一次要公開，我們民眾要的是一個答案、是一個結果論，民眾得到安全、安心的生活，因為大家現在不安心。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林次長宜敬","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:37.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:39.279000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:40.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:48.401000+08:00","text":"我再請教國安局，美國在10月份發布了「國家安全備忘錄」，對不對？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:13:49.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:13:58.264000+08:00","text":"它特別也把五角大廈跟情報單位增加了AI的技術應用跟部署，這是首次。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:14:00.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:14:20.112000+08:00","text":"基於維護整個美國與全球資訊網的安全，來防制這些利用AI進行的軍事情報活動，我剛才特別說了，這是首次針對AI技術的使用、管理跟相關的風險，它訂定了什麼呢？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:14:20.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:15:09.220000+08:00","text":"具體的因應措施，期望在加強AI技術於網路安全、反情報、軍事研發等這些國家安全領域應用當中，都能夠同時透過相關的風險控管規範，主要目的就是要確保公民的權利不受侵犯，但是我們現在感覺到臺灣人民的權利已經非常不安心，你可以感同身受嗎？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:15:09.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:15:10.220000+08:00","text":"報告委員，國科會同樣在最近訂定了我們國家的人工智慧基本法案，這個法案結合鼓勵、創新，並兼顧民眾權益，裡面的一個精神就有針對民眾的隱私權，還有相關權益保障的應用，訂定指引的綱領，所以這部分是有在做。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:15:10.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:15:43.380000+08:00","text":"你目前所說的，就是國科會他們已經做了一個規範出來，但在國安局部分，美國都已經這麼做了，備忘錄也都出來了，我們國安局自己的備忘錄或指引，方向是什麼？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:15:44.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:08.119000+08:00","text":"有，事實上，去年我們有依據行政院針對生成式人工智慧使用規範訂定了作業原則，提供給我們同仁來做指引，目的也是要第一，兼顧到AI的應用；第二，要合規的應用，即合乎現行規定，這個部分是目前我們在制度面上的作法。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:08.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:10.661000+08:00","text":"另外，剛剛委員提到的美國針對軍情單位，他們……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:14.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:16.665000+08:00","text":"你也可以看看他們有哪一些規定，既然已經公布了，那有什麼……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:16.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:16.885000+08:00","text":"我們會參考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:16.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:17.885000+08:00","text":"對，本席就要請問你這句話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:17.885000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:18.885000+08:00","text":"我們會參考，因為這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:17.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:18.927000+08:00","text":"你們應該滾動式的檢討，看看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加安全？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:19.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:21.068000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員，這個我們內部已經有做過研究，我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的精神，檢討我們內部的機制可以朝向更加穩健的方式發展。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:41.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:16:59.969000+08:00","text":"這個務必一定要達陣，我們也期勉相關單位，因為到目前為止，人民的生活就是離開不了這一環，但是人民離開不了又有很多不安心，這並不是一個民主國家應該要有的層次和感受……","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:16:59.969000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:01.730000+08:00","text":"是，我們會持續努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:01.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:02.790000+08:00","text":"一定要加油，好不好？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副局長元斌","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:03.290000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:04.718571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:05.018571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:09.304286+08:00","text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，副局長和次長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:09.604286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:13.318571+08:00","text":"羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:13.618571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:17.332857+08:00","text":"鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:17.632857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:21.347143+08:00","text":"何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:21.647143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:25.361429+08:00","text":"林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:25.661429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:29.375714+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:29.675714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:33.390000+08:00","text":"伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-18T12:17:33.690000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-18T12:17:37.975714+08:00","text":"接下來我們請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時6分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。首先還是請數發部。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林次長宜敬：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我看你從幾位委員的詢答當中你很輕鬆，但是民眾都很緊張，所以我還是願意讓你講，到底是怎麼回事？因為從幾位委員的詢答當中還是沒有得到真正你要說明的內容，所以我願意讓你講清楚，到底怎麼回事？從禮拜五開始。"],["林次長宜敬：OK！非常謝謝委員，就是禮拜五晚上，我們數發部陸續接到一些民眾的通報……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，粉專被下架了，當然大家都會很緊張嘛！還會衍生到哪些位置呢？大家都很緊張。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：連公部門──證交所也影響到了，這怎麼辦？請做說明。"],["林次長宜敬：是，當下我們接到這些通報以後，我們就是馬上去處理，去聯絡臉書，把這些正牌的粉專讓它恢復。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們馬上去聯絡嘛？"],["林次長宜敬：對，我們去跟臉書還有這些財經網紅們聯絡，就是處理這件事情，當下其實我們也不知道發生了什麼事情，因為數發部在那段時間裡面並沒有發公文或者是用其他任何方式去通知臉書說要求要把那些財經粉專下架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這些下架跟你是沒有關係的？"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要說明的是這個？"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯、沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請刑事局來。你請回座。"],["林副局長信雄：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止大家還是有很多的質疑，到底有沒有故意的情節？有沒有？到目前為止就你們了解。"],["林副局長信雄：目前了解是沒有故意的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止了解是沒有故意的？"],["林副局長信雄：就我們了解是臉書公司有個內部篩選機制，他們單位之間聯繫的時候發生了問題，所以不小心……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以以警政單位你們的說法是臉書自己出的問題？"],["林副局長信雄：他們內部的聯繫機制有發生的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：確定是他們內部機制出的問題？"],["林副局長信雄：目前了解是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前了解是這樣。好，你請回座。請國安局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你聽到現在，大家現在對於數發部的期待也很高，當然對我們警政單位的期待都很高，因為它是人民的保母，尤其有AI的情況之下，所以本席要來請教國安局，你面對AI可能帶來的資安外洩、資安危機，政府要怎麼去因應？你光是一個粉專下架，衍生的恐慌是這麼動盪，那你要怎麼做？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，針對AI帶來的風險，原則上我們的報告裡面提到兩塊：一個資安，一個可能是假訊息的威脅。我先從資安這個角度來看，面對這種生成式AI的發起，可能要從它會構成什麼樣的威脅來談我們怎麼來因應。首先它會快速的產製惡意程式；第二個，社交電郵會更加仿真，以前語文是障礙……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：幾乎要百分之百。"],["張副局長元斌：生成式已經不是障礙，而且它快速還可以持續學習優化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是、對。"],["張副局長元斌：面對這樣的攻擊，我們要從三個角度來看，第一個就是應該要先有機制面，有關機制面，我相信政府機關都已經有一個既有的機制，接下來是要落實強化。舉個例子，第一個，剛剛數發部次長也有提到，我們因應這種邊界設備可能遭受AI的漏洞攻擊，目前我們看到這是越來越常見，所以邊界設備應該要做好相關的防護，導入零信任，甚至機敏的資訊能夠做實體隔離，避免駭客能夠直接碰觸。","另外一個就是要加強人員的資安意識，包括剛剛講的社交工程的電郵越來越仿真、越來越精準，所以只要加強人員的資安意識，遇到來路不明的不要去點，甚至應該要落實單位的資安規範。另外……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果以你目前給本席所做的說明，你根本沒有辦法解決什麼問題，請你暫停。","我還是請數發部次長，你認為剛剛國安局的說法當中，在數發部，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["林次長宜敬：抱歉，委員請問是哪一個部分？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且在整個駭侵跟漏洩的部分是非常恐怖，你可以扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["林次長宜敬：OK！我們數發部在AI的方面，第一個當然就是說我們要提供各種工具給內政部警政署等或者是其他政府單位，來對抗這些不管是假訊息或者是AI的風險，當然在數位方面，數發部是主責單位，所有這些方面都是我們的責任。抱歉，請問委員您指的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是你的責任，我請問你們的橫向聯繫目前執行的情況怎麼樣？OK嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：應該還可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：應該還可以，為什麼發生了這麼多事情？"],["林次長宜敬：您是說這件事情？指的是周末這件事情？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且瞬息萬變。"],["林次長宜敬：是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我在這邊，尤其剛剛國安局特別講到了，因為世界各國是無國界的。"],["林次長宜敬：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是無國界的，在這樣的情況之下，你要怎麼樣跟橫向所有相關單位聯繫？如何與各國加強這一些相關的情資？"],["林次長宜敬：是，事實上最近一直有一些友好國家包含一些先進國家，還有一些開發中的民主國家，他們都來臺灣跟我們在AI以及資安方面做很多的探討，因為現在很多的資安攻擊都是跨國的，而且會是跳轉的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["林次長宜敬：譬如說，它要攻擊臺灣的話，它可能先攻擊美國，從美國再跳轉來攻擊臺灣，也可能先攻擊菲律賓，然後再……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以可以看到這個嚴重性。"],["林次長宜敬：是，這個是非常嚴重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：非常嚴重。"],["林次長宜敬：所以我們有很多的橫向溝通，但是這方面的溝通通常是我們數發部下屬的資安院做這種溝通，這些溝通因為涉及到國安，所以並不是每一次的會面、每一次的討論都會公開，而且這個討論的細節更是不能隨意在媒體公開。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，不用說每一次要公開，我們民眾要的是一個答案、是一個結果論，民眾得到安全、安心的生活，因為大家現在不安心。"],["林次長宜敬：是，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我再請教國安局，美國在10月份發布了「國家安全備忘錄」，對不對？它特別也把五角大廈跟情報單位增加了AI的技術應用跟部署，這是首次。基於維護整個美國與全球資訊網的安全，來防制這些利用AI進行的軍事情報活動，我剛才特別說了，這是首次針對AI技術的使用、管理跟相關的風險，它訂定了什麼呢？具體的因應措施，期望在加強AI技術於網路安全、反情報、軍事研發等這些國家安全領域應用當中，都能夠同時透過相關的風險控管規範，主要目的就是要確保公民的權利不受侵犯，但是我們現在感覺到臺灣人民的權利已經非常不安心，你可以感同身受嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，國科會同樣在最近訂定了我們國家的人工智慧基本法案，這個法案結合鼓勵、創新，並兼顧民眾權益，裡面的一個精神就有針對民眾的隱私權，還有相關權益保障的應用，訂定指引的綱領，所以這部分是有在做。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你目前所說的，就是國科會他們已經做了一個規範出來，但在國安局部分，美國都已經這麼做了，備忘錄也都出來了，我們國安局自己的備忘錄或指引，方向是什麼？"],["張副局長元斌：有，事實上，去年我們有依據行政院針對生成式人工智慧使用規範訂定了作業原則，提供給我們同仁來做指引，目的也是要第一，兼顧到AI的應用；第二，要合規的應用，即合乎現行規定，這個部分是目前我們在制度面上的作法。另外，剛剛委員提到的美國針對軍情單位，他們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也可以看看他們有哪一些規定，既然已經公布了，那有什麼……"],["張副局長元斌：我們會參考。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席就要請問你這句話……"],["張副局長元斌：我們會參考，因為這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們應該滾動式的檢討，看看怎麼樣能夠讓我們的人民更加安全？"],["張副局長元斌：是，謝謝委員，這個我們內部已經有做過研究，我們會參考美國訂定出來這樣的精神，檢討我們內部的機制可以朝向更加穩健的方式發展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個務必一定要達陣，我們也期勉相關單位，因為到目前為止，人民的生活就是離開不了這一環，但是人民離開不了又有很多不安心，這並不是一個民主國家應該要有的層次和感受……"],["張副局長元斌：是，我們會持續努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要加油，好不好？謝謝。"],["張副局長元斌：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，副局長和次長請回。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","伍麗華、伍麗華、伍麗華委員不在。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}