{"error":false,"id":["157043"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157043,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157043","日期":"2024-11-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-35-14","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":14,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-18T12:17:47+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-18T12:30:49+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37ff27132e477e8754e0cfe8279b0088fa9b21d42de11d19e2d913a09c00f96f855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:17:47 - 12:30:49","會議時間":"2024-11-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告「AI技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.41909375000000004,"end":5.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.14409375,"end":5.549093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.90346875,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.586593750000002,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.10909375,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.73284375,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":21.52971875,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.73971875,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":33.47721875,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.81846875,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.42534375,"end":44.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.69909375,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.977218750000006,"end":50.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.018468750000004,"end":54.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.634093750000005,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":60.696593750000005,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.04659375000001,"end":66.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.63221875,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":70.77096875000001,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":75.86721875,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":80.54159375,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.68846875,"end":90.17721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":90.75096875,"end":93.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":93.29909375000001,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":94.39596875000001,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.63159375000001,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.76159375,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.03909375,"end":111.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.81096875,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.40034375,"end":125.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":124.34909375000001,"end":127.26846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.97721875000002,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.89659375000002,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.03159375,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.43221875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":133.52909375000002,"end":133.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.03534375,"end":139.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.39721875,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.66721875000002,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.70096875000002,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.86971875,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.01721875,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.70471875,"end":149.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.85159375,"end":149.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.72909375,"end":170.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.78534375,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":169.23659375,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.62846875000002,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":175.73346875000001,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.07034375,"end":185.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":186.60096875000002,"end":187.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.13659375,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.74346875,"end":194.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.81909375,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.15534375000001,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.22659375,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":208.84221875,"end":210.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":211.33971875,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":213.61784375000002,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.68471875,"end":232.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":232.80471875,"end":234.64409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.33159375000002,"end":242.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.84534375,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.90409375000002,"end":248.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":248.31284375,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":249.52784375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":252.51471875000001,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.33659375,"end":260.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.57221875,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":264.00659375000004,"end":266.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":266.84159375,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":268.96784375000004,"end":272.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.62971875,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.67534375,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.17284375,"end":282.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":282.75471875,"end":284.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.18471875,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.14596875,"end":292.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":292.72784375000003,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":293.40284375000005,"end":295.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.25471875,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":299.10659375,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":303.44346875,"end":304.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.91159375,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":306.44721875000005,"end":308.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.86034375,"end":310.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":310.73346875000004,"end":312.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":312.84284375000004,"end":314.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":315.25596875,"end":320.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":320.40284375000005,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":324.03096875,"end":326.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.74346875000003,"end":335.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.42971875,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.11659375000005,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":345.36096875000004,"end":347.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":348.19596875,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.01409375000003,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.19096875,"end":366.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":366.48846875000004,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.61471875,"end":368.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":368.98596875000004,"end":370.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.25534375,"end":377.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.10284375000003,"end":380.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.42721875,"end":380.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.78159375,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.96284375000005,"end":382.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.41846875000005,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":384.52784375000005,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":385.94534375,"end":387.37971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":389.06721875000005,"end":393.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":393.70784375000005,"end":394.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":395.47971875,"end":397.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":398.98971875,"end":400.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":401.95971875000004,"end":403.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":404.30534375,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":407.96721875000003,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.13534375,"end":420.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.11721875,"end":421.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":422.49659375000005,"end":424.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.71971875,"end":427.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.17096875000004,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.42784375,"end":432.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":432.57096875,"end":434.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":435.77721875000003,"end":438.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":439.92846875000004,"end":441.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":442.17284375,"end":443.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":444.61971875,"end":447.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":449.58096875,"end":450.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.28534375000004,"end":452.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.37784375,"end":454.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":455.06534375,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.66846875000005,"end":457.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":458.23784375,"end":459.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":460.36409375000005,"end":462.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":464.21159375,"end":466.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.19846875,"end":469.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":470.77596875,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":472.91909375000006,"end":481.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":483.28034375000004,"end":484.73159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.38096875,"end":487.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.98846875000004,"end":488.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":489.50721875000005,"end":494.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.88596875,"end":500.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.42096875000004,"end":503.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":502.16346875000005,"end":503.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":503.24346875000003,"end":505.01534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.38659375000003,"end":519.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":519.91596875,"end":524.6240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":523.57784375,"end":525.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":528.5559687500001,"end":530.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.23846875,"end":540.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":539.11971875,"end":540.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":540.55409375,"end":544.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.5828437499999,"end":548.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.3078437500001,"end":566.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":565.61346875,"end":569.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":569.4609687500001,"end":569.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":570.0178437500001,"end":576.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":570.10221875,"end":570.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":575.4853437500001,"end":577.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.39221875,"end":577.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.96596875,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":583.02846875,"end":583.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":584.1928437500001,"end":584.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.2097187500001,"end":591.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":587.7534687500001,"end":588.2765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":590.63909375,"end":592.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.29284375,"end":592.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.88346875,"end":592.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":592.9678437499999,"end":593.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":596.0053437500001,"end":596.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":596.8659687500001,"end":598.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.33784375,"end":604.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.36659375,"end":613.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.19721875,"end":610.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":610.2140937500001,"end":611.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":614.92221875,"end":618.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.01034375,"end":618.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.1284687500001,"end":618.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.1453437499999,"end":618.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.16221875,"end":618.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.21284375,"end":620.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":621.3515937500001,"end":629.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":631.7297187500001,"end":633.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":633.8559687500001,"end":635.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":636.62346875,"end":638.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.69909375,"end":640.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":640.97721875,"end":643.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":644.62221875,"end":646.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":648.11534375,"end":649.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.96721875,"end":654.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":654.07221875,"end":656.2322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":656.7890937500001,"end":658.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":659.67471875,"end":660.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":660.92346875,"end":663.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":663.8090937500001,"end":665.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":666.27284375,"end":667.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":667.84221875,"end":671.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":671.6897187500001,"end":673.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":674.40659375,"end":675.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":676.3303437500001,"end":678.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":678.6928437500001,"end":681.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":682.5403437500001,"end":685.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":685.93221875,"end":687.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":689.07096875,"end":691.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":692.17596875,"end":697.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":698.2509687500001,"end":701.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":701.82846875,"end":703.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":705.8953437499999,"end":707.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":708.1397187500002,"end":709.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":710.14784375,"end":712.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":713.1853437500001,"end":715.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":716.0034687500001,"end":717.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":717.7922187500001,"end":718.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":718.9734687499999,"end":719.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":719.0747187500001,"end":722.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.0359687499999,"end":724.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":726.8203437500001,"end":727.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":729.13221875,"end":736.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.7140937500001,"end":732.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.54096875,"end":734.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.6753437500001,"end":751.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":750.8672187500001,"end":754.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":756.85784375,"end":759.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.1697187500001,"end":765.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":765.00846875,"end":771.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":771.89346875,"end":773.1084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":774.17159375,"end":775.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":776.12909375,"end":779.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":779.87534375,"end":780.61784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.958,"end":26.076,"text":"謝謝昭惠,麻煩有請國安局局長走了嗎?是不是麻煩請副局長、法務部調查局副局長以及內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長三位好,時間的關係不宜問候今天我們在處理有關於"},{"start":27.853,"end":50.242,"text":"深偽以及錯假訊息對我們國家安全的影響以及因應這是一個非常嚴肅的課題之前我們在2021年的時候國安局就說了AI Deepfake危及國家安全要去訂因應的SOP那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的然後到了"},{"start":55.697,"end":78.769,"text":"今年的時候,你們在10月31號的書面報告說有會大量的製造深偽的影片,杜撰錯假的訊息我今天看到了我們主要負責的一個是調查局,一個是內政部警政署我先請教一下我們的內政部警政署"},{"start":80.578,"end":96.597,"text":"你們在報告裡面的第二頁到第三頁說在2022年7月5號的時候,最高檢察署檢察總長召開的這個會議當中,那包括你們跟調查局是主要的檢測機關嗎?"},{"start":98.666,"end":126.199,"text":"那你們說刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽,也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置,也可以溯源偵辦?是的那你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎?我們有相關的一個軟體,跟報告員我們有相關的一個檢測軟體來可以做相關的一個檢驗能力如何?當然他沒辦法百分之百,但我們可以再就他的實質內容沒辦法百分之百,那個軟體花多少錢?"},{"start":128.135,"end":142.434,"text":"我們是花了一千...兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體大概一千萬兩個軟體一千萬是的花了一千萬的軟體辨別的能力現在有到幾%我請我們柯市長回答"},{"start":144.412,"end":170.379,"text":"報告委員因為AI的檢測本來就有一定的限制這我理解那我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出來我們檢測的流程跟標準那根據這兩個軟體還有一些開源軟體以及我們去做一些事後的判斷所以有一套的檢測的方式來做檢測那我們不敢講說百分之百能夠檢驗的出來但是這一套的檢驗是經過大概百分之多少"},{"start":172.679,"end":191.545,"text":"我們有信心可以達到百分之九十五以上百分之九十五以上是,那有一些會有一些限制,譬如說影像沒有關係啊,我們等一下就你們遇到的限制再進一步討論因為深偽對台灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響"},{"start":192.796,"end":216.576,"text":"特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務這正是對我們的國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅所以為什麼會排這樣子的專案報告我們就要深入的去了解我們被滲透的有多嚴重老共到底是怎麼搞的具體的案子現在處理的狀況到什麼樣子"},{"start":217.762,"end":243.865,"text":"你們在報告裡面講說從112年到113年10月辦理檢測的案件11件3件是總統、副總統選舉罷免法相關的案件其他的8件是刑事案件這11個案件都甄解了嗎?有些案件是送件單位那我沒有瞭解說他地檢署那邊甄解了沒?可以去追溯一下嗎?"},{"start":244.946,"end":262.978,"text":"我們可以了解這11個案件裡面偵查的情形因為吼你們已經標定11個案件出來了嘛這11個案件我們是有順利的抓到這些為非作歹做這種可惡至極的歹徒"},{"start":264.302,"end":288.826,"text":"還是雷聲大雨點小?一點結果都沒有?這個國人會很關心啊可能在分散各個地檢署他們最後處理終結的情況是怎麼樣?刑事警察局也未必清楚嗎?調查局也未必清楚嗎?那但是我覺得總是要有個單位把這個資料都彙整以後跟大家做說明這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":290.165,"end":314.368,"text":"高委員我們會清查偵查的情形對偵查不公開的就不公開嘛還沒有偵截就還沒有偵截嘛那偵截了以後最後的結果是怎麼樣是簽截是不起訴還是起訴這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間做這麼辛苦的工作總要有個結果出來嘛"},{"start":315.325,"end":331.529,"text":"要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備你們也去做檢測了結果最後的結果是什麼大家不知道案件偵辦到哪裡大家都不知道我相信啊我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊贊不贊成"},{"start":338.131,"end":349.281,"text":"有關後續的一個偵檢起訴或是審判提醒我們會來做一個了解好具體的請教這個是深偽造假還是中共借血這個鑑定出來沒有"},{"start":353.243,"end":370.135,"text":"報告委員這個案件是當時是我們新北市調查處受理的那也在新北地檢細數了那我們在鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢了所以目前這個案子在新北地檢的處理當中目前還在偵查當中嗎是的所以這是不是造假的"},{"start":373.288,"end":400.113,"text":"我們的鑑定結果已經送到地檢了所以要由地檢他們那邊有地檢來加以說明嘛現在還在細數還沒有真解嘛OK 好當事人說啊這個是深偽造假調查局說要尊重當事人的意願嘛所以不能公布結果嘛這我也尊重啊但問題是這已經不是個人的問題啦這是國家安全的問題耶"},{"start":402.111,"end":424.098,"text":"這如果是中共借選的話可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎?新北地檢還要辦多久?調查局知不知道?報告委員我們會和新北地檢請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通協調然後如果有進步情形再和委員報告這個案子拖很久了嘛當事人都站出來控訴啦"},{"start":425.882,"end":448.22,"text":"這中共借選啊知識體大非常嚴重啊絕對不能虎頭蛇尾啊剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾嘛這麼嚴肅的事情絕對要把它查清楚啊是不是真的是中共借選是不是真的是身為偽造這要給社會大眾一個交代啊贊成嗎?負局長你贊成嗎?大家就等著啊"},{"start":453.427,"end":480.625,"text":"到底是哪個單位這麼可惡啊那不是只有影像的問題啊還有錄音檔的問題啊這位之前的前立委說啊他連錄音檔都被變造啊他要求的是什麼他要求的是說這是明顯的境外借權的作為期待國安及司法單位迅速處理啊來先請國安單位"},{"start":483.448,"end":499.398,"text":"現在處理的進度如何?報告委員這個部分我們是交給那個司法機關在調查當中所以跟國安單位沒有關係喔?我們只要影響國安跟涉案的我們都會持續的駐收"},{"start":502.168,"end":525.482,"text":"你說影響到國安的你們都會怎麼樣?我們會去了解這樣的一個案情提供給相關單位來爭取那目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣?因為這個案子還在司法調查當中這我們要尊重司法機關的調查所以跟國安單位沒有關係嗎?我剛剛提到只要是會影響國安跟涉案的這個案子你覺得有沒有影響到國安?您覺得有沒有影響到國安?"},{"start":535.73,"end":548.177,"text":"對,這個部分我們還是要尊重這個司法警察機關的一個...我了解嘛,所以國安單位的立場就是說這個國安單位沒有關係,要尊重檢調嘛,是吧?所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象,是不是這樣?"},{"start":550.299,"end":552.02,"text":"所以從國安單位的立場來講就是要等事法檢調機關嗎?"},{"start":570.114,"end":593.83,"text":"是嗎?因為他已經在進行當中啊所以這個部分我們還是要尊重司法檢調局嘛沒有關係啦那你就講嘛說這個國安單位在司法檢調有結果出來以前跟我們沒有關係這樣一句話不就講完了我有說錯嗎?我不是說沒有關係那你覺得有關係?我們要尊重不是我們要尊重這個司法檢調局當然要尊重司法檢調嘛來刑事警察局委員好這個殷檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定?"},{"start":601.371,"end":628.79,"text":"報告委員這不是我們負責鑑定的好來調查局報告委員這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定鑑定結果出來沒有鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了這個案子是臺北地檢上一個案子是新北地檢現在兩個案子都還在細數嗎那可能再請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁大家都很辛苦多努力一點"},{"start":631.992,"end":657.677,"text":"當事人都已經指控了這老共借選欸介入我們的選舉欸多嚴重的事情啊這麼嚴重的事情辦到現在都還辦不出來喔是能力有問題還是決心有問題副局長你覺得呢案子在新北地檢跟台北地檢你們該做的鑑定都做完了嘛希望也利用這個機會喔"},{"start":659.864,"end":687.578,"text":"調查局跟臺北地檢講跟新北地檢講當事人指控這麼明確這中共借選影像也是偽造的、陰檔也是偽造的那是不是偽造的只有你們知道嘛但你們也不方便講那全體國人就只好等啊等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代啊否則這麼嚴重的事情可以用霍西尼的喔霍西尼混一混就過去喔"},{"start":689.427,"end":714.547,"text":"這牽涉到國家安全的問題耶剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重嘛不能虎頭蛇尾嘛一定要水落石出嘛但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位國安局是要尊重檢調嘛阿調查局你們的結果跟台北地檢想台北地檢不說你們也沒辦法說所以到底是不是偽造變造的"},{"start":716.055,"end":722.02,"text":"到底是誰搞的?到目前為止關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案嗎?是嗎?是、是不是?"},{"start":729.178,"end":730.919,"text":"這牽涉到國家安全你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要"},{"start":756.892,"end":779.987,"text":"您覺得有沒有認為跟國人說明的必要我個人認為如果這個案子告一段落當然是有需要對國人做一個說明好 非常好再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢還有台北地檢講這事情很重要啊攸關國家安全啊結果是什麼大家都要等他們出來跟國人做說明啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時17分）謝謝召委。國安局局長走了嘛，對不對？"],["主席：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那麻煩請副局長、法務部調查局副局長，以及內政部警政署刑事警察局副局長。"],["張副局長元斌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係，就不一一問候。今天我們在處理有關深偽以及錯假訊息對我們國家安全的影響及因應，這是一個非常嚴肅的課題，之前在2021年時，當時國安局就表示AI Deepfake危及國家安全，要訂定因應的SOP，那個時候應該是陳明通在立法院說的。到了今年，你們在10月31號的書面報告裡提到有大量的深偽製造的影片以及杜撰錯假訊息。今天我看到我們主要負責的單位，一個是調查局，一個是內政部警政署，首先先請教內政部警政署，你們的報告第2頁到第3頁提到2022年7月5號，在最高檢察署檢察總長召開的會議中，提到包括你們跟調查局是主要檢測機關，你們表示刑事警察局除了可以檢測真偽，也可以依照個案偵查其來源IP位置及溯源偵辦，是不是？"],["林副局長信雄：嗯，是的。"],["黃委員國昌：你們刑事警察局真的可以檢驗真偽嗎？"],["林副局長信雄：我們有一個檢測軟體可以做相關的檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：能力如何？"],["林副局長信雄：當然沒有辦法百分之百，但我們可以再就它的實質內容……"],["黃委員國昌：沒辦法百分之百，那個軟體花多少錢？"],["林副局長信雄：兩個軟體大概1,000萬。"],["黃委員國昌：兩個軟體1,000萬？"],["林副局長信雄：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：花了1,000萬的軟體，辨別的能力現在到多少百分比？"],["林副局長信雄：我請科制中心回答。"],["林主任建隆：報告委員，AI檢測本來就有一定限制……"],["黃委員國昌：這我了解。"],["林主任建隆：我們跟調查局其實是有共同討論出檢測的流程和標準，根據這兩個軟體，還有一些開源軟體，以及我們做的一些事後判斷，訂定了一套檢測方式，我們不敢說百分之百能夠檢驗出來，但這一套檢驗是經過……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，大概百分之多少？"],["林主任建隆：我們有信心可以達到95%以上。"],["黃委員國昌：95%以上？"],["林主任建隆：是，但會有一些限制，譬如影像……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我們等一下再就你們遇到的限制進一步討論，因為深偽對臺灣國家安全造成非常嚴重的影響，特別是如果老共拿來介入我們國家國內的事務，這會對我們國家安全造成非常嚴重的威脅，所以今天為什麼要排這樣的專案報告，就是要深入了解我們被滲透的情形有多嚴重、老共到底是怎麼搞的，以及具體的案子現在處理的狀況。你們在報告裡面提到從112年到113年10月，辦理檢測的案件11件，3件是總統副總統選舉罷免法相關案件，其他8件是刑事案件，請問這11個案件都偵結了嗎？"],["林主任建隆：有些案件是送鑑單位，我們沒有去了解地檢署偵結了沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：可以去追溯一下嗎？"],["林主任建隆：我們可以去了解這11個案件的偵查情形。"],["黃委員國昌：因為你們已經標的11個案件出來，針對這11個案件，我們有順利抓到這些為非作歹、可惡至極的歹徒，還是雷聲大雨點小，一點結果都沒有？這個國人會很關心，可能分散在各個地檢署，最後處理終結的情況怎麼樣，刑事警察局未必清楚，調查局也未必清楚，但我覺得總是要有個單位把這些資料彙整後跟大家說明，這樣可以嗎？"],["林主任建隆：報告委員，我們會清查偵查的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：對，偵查不公開的就不公開，還沒有偵結就還沒有偵結，如果偵結了後，最後結果怎麼樣，是簽結、不起訴，還是起訴，這牽涉到你們前面花了這麼多時間、這麼辛苦的工作，總要有個結果出來，要不然我們花這麼多錢買這些設備，你們也去檢測了，結果最後的結果是什麼大家都不知道，案件偵辦到哪裡大家也不知道，我相信我們在面對國家安全威脅這麼嚴肅的課題時，絕對不能虎頭蛇尾，贊不贊成？"],["林副局長信雄：是，有關後續偵結起訴或審判情形，我們會做個了解。"],["黃委員國昌：好，具體的請教，這個是深偽造假，還是中共介選？鑑定出來沒有？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，這個案件當時是新北市調查處受理的，在新北地檢繫屬，我們鑑識的結果也移送到新北地檢，所以目前這個案子在新北地檢處理當中。"],["黃委員國昌：目前還在偵查當中？"],["吳副局長富梅：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是不是造假的？"],["吳副局長富梅：我們鑑定的結果已經送到地檢，所以要由地檢他們……"],["黃委員國昌：由地檢加以說明，現在還在繫屬，還沒有偵結？"],["吳副局長富梅：是，還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，當事人說這個是深偽造假，調查局說要尊重當事人的意願，所以不能公布結果，這我也尊重，但問題是這已經不是個人問題，這是國家安全的問題，如果是中共介選的話，可以辦到今天都沒有結果嗎？新北地檢還要辦多久，調查局知不知道？"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，我們會請新北市調查處和新北地檢先做一些溝通、協調，如果有進一步情形，再和委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：這案子拖很久了，當事人都站出來控訴是中共介選，茲事體大，非常嚴重啊！絕對不能虎頭蛇尾。剛剛大家都贊成不能虎頭蛇尾，這麼嚴肅的事情，絕對要查清楚，是不是真的是中共介選、是不是真的是深偽偽造，這要給社會大眾一個交代，贊成嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：副局長，你贊成嗎？大家都等著啊！到底是哪個單位這麼可惡，不是只有影像的問題，還有錄音檔的問題，這位前立委說連錄音檔都被變造，他要求的是什麼？他要求的是這明顯是境外介選的作為，期待國安及司法單位迅速處理。來！先請國安單位，現在處理的進度如何？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，這個部分我們是交給司法機關在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟國安單位沒有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：只要影響國安跟社安，我們都會持續注蒐，而這個案子，因為在司法……"],["黃委員國昌：你說影響到國安的，你們都會怎麼樣？"],["張副局長元斌：我們會去了解案情，提供給相關單位偵處。"],["黃委員國昌：目前你們了解的狀況怎麼樣？"],["張副局長元斌：因為這個案子還在司法調查當中，所以我們要尊重司法機關的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟國安單位沒有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：我剛剛提到，只要會影響國安跟社安的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子，你覺得有沒有影響到國安？你覺得有沒有影響到國安？"],["張副局長元斌：對，這個部分我們還是要尊重司法檢察機關的調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我了解，所以國安單位的立場就是這個跟國安單位沒有關係，要尊重檢調嘛！是吧？所以呼籲國安單位是呼籲錯的對象，是不是這樣？"],["張副局長元斌：報告委員，我們不能就個案去做評估，因為它已經進到司法程序，但是我們的職責會去掌蒐這些偵訊，或者是影響國家安全跟社會安定的過程……"],["黃委員國昌：所以從國安單位的立場來講，就是要等司法檢調機關，是嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：因為它已經在進行當中，所以這個部分我們還是要尊重司法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！那你就講嘛！國安單位在司法檢調有結果出來以前，跟你們沒有關係，這樣一句話不就講完了！我有說錯嗎？"],["張副局長元斌：我不是說沒有關係。"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得有關係？"],["張副局長元斌：不是，我們要尊重司法……"],["黃委員國昌：當然要尊重司法檢調嘛！來！刑事警察局。"],["林副局長信雄：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：這個音檔刑事警察局有沒有鑑定？"],["林副局長信雄：報告委員，這不是我們負責鑑定的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，調查局。"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，這個案子是我們調查局做的鑑定……"],["黃委員國昌：鑑定結果出來了沒有？"],["吳副局長富梅：鑑定結果已經送到臺北地檢了。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子是臺北地檢，上一個案子是新北地檢，現在兩個案子都還在繫屬嗎？"],["吳副局長富梅：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那可能要請調查局請新北地檢還有臺北地檢的同仁，大家都很辛苦，多努力一點，當事人都已經指控這是老共介選、介入我們的選舉，多嚴重的事情啊！這麼嚴重的事情，辦到現在都還辦不出來，是能力有問題，還是決心有問題？副局長，你覺得呢？"],["吳副局長富梅：案子在新北地檢跟臺北地檢，我個人……"],["黃委員國昌：你們該做的鑑定都做完了？"],["吳副局長富梅：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：希望也利用這個機會，調查局跟臺北地檢、新北地檢講，當事人指控這麼明確，表示這是中共介選，影像是偽造的，音檔也是偽造的，但是不是偽造，只有你們知道，但你們不方便講，那全體國人就只好等，等臺北地檢跟新北地檢給大家一個交代，否則這麼嚴重的事情，可以和稀泥嗎？和稀泥混一混就過去？這牽涉到國家安全的問題，剛剛大家都同意這很嚴重，不能虎頭蛇尾，一定要水落石出，但看起來今天來做專案報告的這三個單位，國安局說要尊重檢調，調查局說你們的結果跟臺北地檢講了，如果臺北地檢不說，你們也沒辦法說，所以到底是不是偽造、變造，到底是誰搞的，到目前為止，關心這件事情的全體國人都沒有一個答案，是嗎？是不是？你不要笑嘛！你憋著笑，這很嚴肅的問題……"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員……"],["黃委員國昌：我是很嚴肅的態度在請教你啊！"],["吳副局長富梅：報告委員，我剛剛也回答了，這個案子有繫屬的地檢，當然要由地檢視最後查處的狀況，覺得有對國人說明的必要，由他們來出面說明，不應該由調查局出面，我們也是一個偵查的……"],["黃委員國昌：這牽涉到國家安全，你認為有沒有跟國人說明的必要？你覺得有沒有跟國人說明的必要？"],["吳副局長富梅：我個人認為如果案子告一段落，當然有需要對國人做個說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好，再麻煩調查局分別跟新北地檢，還有臺北地檢講，這件事情很重要，攸關國家安全，結果是什麼，大家都在等他們出來跟國人說明。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。本日會議有王定宇委員、林楚茵委員提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復；委員口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面兩週內提供，委員另約定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-35-14","speakers":["林憶君","羅美玲","洪申翰","徐巧芯","黃仁","沈伯洋","陳永康","陳冠廷","馬文君","王鴻薇","賴士葆","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","王定宇","林楚茵"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-18"],"gazette_id":"11310101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長、數位發展部、法務部調查局、內政部警政署、國家科學及技術委員會報告\n「AI 技術在資安、深偽（Deepfake）影片及錯假訊息之影響評估及因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}