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平嚴正執行法律推動柔性司法貫徹公義與關懷提升司法衛信展現反貪腐決心建立溫暖而富有同理心的司法進行各位委員持續督促與指教謝謝"},{"start":2381.873,"end":2394.377,"text":"報告完畢那相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並且會列入公報記錄先做宣告今天委員提出臨時提案那本會依據往例在登記質詢的本會委員"},{"start":2396.918,"end":2412.619,"text":"發言告一個段落後處理那現在時間預計應該是會在早上的11點整處理如果屆時有委員還在詢答的話那我們就會等到該位委員詢答完畢之後我們再馬上進行臨時提案的處理"},{"start":2413.9,"end":2419.242,"text":"本會委員尋答時間8分鐘,必要延長2分鐘非本會委員尋答時間5分鐘,時間不得延長上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2431.926,"end":2431.966,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":2456.015,"end":2484.626,"text":"對於檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦對於調查人員在第一線辦案的辛苦我想本委員會的委員大家都感同身受這是為什麼我們對於強力的支持檢察官跟調查同仁執法實現社會正義把這些壞人審之以法我們一向是高度支持的本黨團針對檢察官要的檢察官助理我們已經正式提案了"},{"start":2485.629,"end":2504.538,"text":"今天我跟所有在座司法法制委員會的委員針對檢查體系從檢察官檢察事務官檢察官助理書記官乃至於最基層最辛苦的法警針對人力全面的盤整跟調整我們也提出了臨時提案"},{"start":2505.558,"end":2524.371,"text":"我一開始跟部長報告這件事情是希望部長能夠清楚的瞭解我們對於檢察官對調查局的支持因為執法的權利在他們手上只有他們有效的發揮他們的權能我們才能夠達到打擊步伐的目的"},{"start":2525.441,"end":2550.439,"text":"但話說回來如果今天有少數的害群之馬敗壞整個檢察官跟調查員的形象傷害人民對於司法的信任我們絕對沒有辦法容忍因此延續著上一次我們在總質詢的時候我跟部長所請教的檢察官"},{"start":2552.102,"end":2580.944,"text":"逃到洗錢販的招待所後來洗錢販逃掉了因為警察問檢察官要不要留人檢察官說不用把他放掉了我上次在總質詢的時候問部長說縱放洗錢販的檢察官赴招待所他面臨了什麼樣的懲處那個時候部長跟我說你們有送檢察院我後來請你們會後調資料給我你們根本沒有送檢察院啊"},{"start":2582.156,"end":2587.922,"text":"是監察院問你們問題的時候你們回覆監察院的問題這樣叫做你們有送監察院"},{"start":2591.229,"end":2617.457,"text":"恩委員說明送監察院包括我們主動的移送包括我們資料送給他因為我們知道他已經有案了他已經在調查中了那當然我們把我們手中相關的資料應他的要求提供給他同樣達到在監察院處理當中這樣子叫做你們有移送監察院喔沒有關係啦部長以後要這樣子硬拗沒有關係大家聽得下去聽不下去心裡都有一把尺"},{"start":2623.019,"end":2640.724,"text":"法務部針對88會館有堅定追究到底的決心你們說對於檢察官形象要用最高的標準來追究請問現在到底追究了什麼責任"},{"start":2643.306,"end":2670.504,"text":"該附的刑事責任跟行政責任我們已經也依照相關的規定該要送到懲戒法院接受懲戒法院的處理我們也送了該送到檢察官審議委員會人審會我們也送了送到檢察官評卷委員會的決議是評卷不成立嗎"},{"start":2671.665,"end":2689.775,"text":"這件事情我公開批判過了社會也有公認嘛對好那送到評選委員會不成立了以後送到人審會以後呢做了什麼處理因為人審會是包括民選的跟官方代表那我尊重他們的處理結果可以把處理的結果跟社會大眾講嗎可以啊"},{"start":2694.296,"end":2721.358,"text":"作為他做了什麼處理那平健委員會他是個別對每一個不同的人我剛已經說過平健委員會了嘛平健委員會就平健不成立所以我公開批判嘛那平健委員會說要送人審會啊我現在問你人審會怎麼處理嘛這個問題有這麼難理解嗎所以人審會做了什麼處理那就看每一個不同的人他有做不同的處理嘛對啊啊針對平健不成立的那個人審會都做了什麼處理"},{"start":2723.476,"end":2742.592,"text":"你指的是哪一位 那我們就告訴你王徒芝王徒芝他要求我們送給他們做監督行政監督所以最後人審會的決議是行政監督嗎對好 沒有關係這樣的結果大家可不可以接受這個要接受社會公平的啦"},{"start":2742.932,"end":2747.976,"text":"再接下來88案調查報告是是是跟我來講啦我標準跟部長說清楚一點部長我跟你說清楚啦兩個都嚴重啦"},{"start":2764.668,"end":2764.948,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2783.444,"end":2809.023,"text":"跟我該說的話我不是都說完了嗎我會把你的意見轉給委員會上一個八八案調查報告八八案調查報告行政調查報告我清楚的點出來了公然說謊我為什麼說公然說謊行事責任歸行事責任行政責任歸行政責任你們從新北地檢署到高檢署所公布的行政調查報告說"},{"start":2811.676,"end":2833.815,"text":"現場招待所沒有經理或業者進入現場沒有服務人員我後來去徹查了整個接受訪談的人訪談的人很清楚的說有喔昨天是檢警來的都是小明就是郭澤民他招待的三個人服務在現場倒酒親桌面點歌"},{"start":2834.861,"end":2843.088,"text":"啊你們行政調查報告竟然說沒有人在那邊服務那顯然是說謊啊這樣子的行政調查報告到底誰要負責"},{"start":2845.854,"end":2857.201,"text":"當時是則由高檢署他們來做行政的調查那這個高檢署調查的結論法務部的立場當然予以尊重當然他們的調查由他們來負責任他們書面也對外面有做說明了那所以上一個"},{"start":2867.208,"end":2882.705,"text":"八八匯廣案法務部堅定追究到底的決心行政的部分該處理的要處理所謂堅定追究到底的決心現在高檢署行政調查報告出包了你們的決心就是由高檢署來回應嗎"},{"start":2884.448,"end":2904.141,"text":"他沒有粗暴他是按照法律的規定按照事實的狀況來做那我就很清楚的跟你講嘛他上面寫的跟人家在訪談時候的筆錄就不一致啊現場操辦人都承認啊現場操辦人都承認然後你們給社會的調查報告可以說現場沒有人服務呃 內容這樣子的行政調查報告不用接受監督嗎"},{"start":2911.55,"end":2936.878,"text":"那我想高檢署他也聽到委員的聲音如果需要再深入調查他應該還是我們就接下來就靜待高檢署的回應RMB的案子2016年起法務部調查局已經立案了我把整個歷程我查完了我清楚的列在上面部長可以看調查局局長也可以看2016年法務部調查局"},{"start":2938.462,"end":2943.948,"text":"就已經立案了結果到2017年2018年2019年2021年不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去製作筆錄結果什麼偵查作為都沒有"},{"start":2953.348,"end":2964.7,"text":"害人越來越多雪球越滾越大一直到一直到2023年的時候才接手才接手由台北地檢署來繼續來加以偵辦對於2016年2017年2018年"},{"start":2972.508,"end":2982.732,"text":"這麼多的被害人跑去檢舉也做了筆錄完全沒有查出來導致被害人越來越多這樣子的偵辦表現來請問部長滿意嗎呃我也尊重調查局好來請調查局的局長請調查局的對你們都上去啦"},{"start":2994.027,"end":3020.965,"text":"你們的順序啦就是從17年18年19年一路有人去檢舉檢舉完了做了筆錄沒有進行的偵查作為導致被害人越來越多大概2023年的時候才處理調查局局長這樣子的偵辦品質你滿意嗎是跟委員報告這個IMB這個案子我們受理之後我們調查官他們有持續的在進行偵辦是然後持續偵辦了多久"},{"start":3026.227,"end":3044.494,"text":"我每一個列的時間啊那個都是我去查的我一筆一筆列出來那個都是客觀的事實現在我只請局長評論啊這樣子調查的結果你身為調查局的局長這樣子調查的品質跟效率你滿不滿意"},{"start":3045.154,"end":3054.662,"text":"我先停一下啦有沒有積極的進行這件事情我建議局長自己把你們調查局調查的卷抓出來看就知道到底有積極還是沒有積極我現在要看部長跟局長講的是什麼"},{"start":3074.163,"end":3097.537,"text":"2017、2018、2019、2021不斷有人去檢舉不斷有人去投訴卻沒有實際的偵辦作為一直拖到什麼2023年等到台北地檢署癥結的時候來我把吸睛的時間很清楚的給你們看這台北地檢署公開的起訴書從2016年開始不發吸睛雪球越滾越大雪球越滾越大結果導致了什麼"},{"start":3098.577,"end":3125.476,"text":"導致了越來越多人的受害現在這些受害人他們要一個公道他們在問當初為什麼不積極偵辦導致這麼多人越來越來越受害面對這樣子的狀況作為部長作為局長能夠是一句我們尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦就可以了事的嗎面對這些被害人部長局長有沒有什麼想說的"},{"start":3128.054,"end":3145.139,"text":"這個案子如果我們行政辦案同仁有任何的疏失或是不夠積極我們會努力的改進而且以此為例那希望每一個案件都要非常的重視我想不是改進跟以此為例而已這件事情需不需要檢討我們可以隨時檢討任何徐長你認為這件事情需不需要檢討"},{"start":3154.21,"end":3170.817,"text":"我們認為當然是需要檢討啦那最主要因為它是一個新型態的這種犯罪啦那對於偵辦的人員而言他也不是那麼熟悉這種犯罪的模式所以我們也不斷的也跟金管會那邊在聯繫接觸然後有些被害人找來的時候"},{"start":3176.059,"end":3193.845,"text":"我只講一個最簡單的問題就好了你們在偵辦的時候知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯不會連這個都不知道吧知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯這個是名字一打下去就知道的事情欸知不知道曾耀峰是通緝犯"},{"start":3195.678,"end":3219.245,"text":"這個要繼續往上追往上追沒有沒有不用往上追阿人家比率就具體的點名他啦知不知道他是通緝犯我只問這個最簡單的問題嘛要尊重基層檢調人員的偵辦我都同意阿但現在偵辦告一個段落了我們不能針對偵辦的過程拿出來檢討嗎拖了6年多被害人多了這麼多被害的金額多了這麼多"},{"start":3222.228,"end":3244.058,"text":"剛局長說大家很認真很努力我同意阿但問題是這藥封是通緝犯這件事情大局當初在偵辦的時候沒有辦出來嗎所以我們現在齁是只要罪犯改了名字以後我們七成的調查人員就查不出來局長你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":3246.591,"end":3254.514,"text":"所以我現在的問題又回來了請針對問題回答他是通緝犯那件事情當初偵辦的時候當初偵辦的時候知不知道太離譜了啦我為什麼說太離譜了那個祖賢是個通緝犯欸拖了6年欸"},{"start":3267.165,"end":3296.762,"text":"沒有具體的偵查作為被害人越來越多了連那個通緝犯都沒有去把他抓起來讓他在外面跟政商權貴剛愁交錯局長你同意這件事情要檢討嗎是我同意要檢討好好 謝謝那我們我們請下一位委員謝龍介發言感謝主席 部長你好委員你好"},{"start":3298.207,"end":3315.993,"text":"我請教一下因為今夏事件連國際都矚目那金門地檢署這個案子什麼時候可以甄決跟委員說明金門地檢署在第一時間他們就分難而且參與了因為你可以發揮一個關鍵的你知道嗎我知道有人出來事件調查明確大家可以沉澱下來對不對"},{"start":3325.596,"end":3343.547,"text":"對阿所以第一時間他們就有參與阿你說常常可以結案齁這個我沒辦法跟你講這個不是很複雜的案件啦不是叫你去執意是什麼如果檢察官都沒有辦法有這種敏感度有啦阿有什麼時候什麼時候我沒辦法跟他說啦我可以說禁訴只禁訴而已好我請教你"},{"start":3348.306,"end":3352.69,"text":"法務部要派什麼人代表法務部出席死刑伺火違憲的辯論?"},{"start":3374.87,"end":3381.341,"text":"有我們的代表也有檢察機關的代表也有推薦的學者代表當事人知道了嗎"},{"start":3382.418,"end":3385.019,"text":"我們的立場就是說跟過去一般的對於死刑就是依法執行"},{"start":3408.103,"end":3414.707,"text":"法律上已經就緒程序完結我就照法律來執行,如果在就緒當中我就沒辦法,如果在就緒當中我就執行兩位兩件有一段時間,但是其他因為程序還在走"},{"start":3431.457,"end":3433.358,"text":"有沒有收到任何總統府或是行政院來指示法務部在憲法法庭辯論的時候"},{"start":3457.532,"end":3475.83,"text":"你要放水或是打假球沒有有沒有都沒有好來美國的一部分的州韓國日本新加坡他們都有死刑的規定那請問我們的死刑規定是違反了憲法哪一條"},{"start":3477.128,"end":3484.831,"text":"我請問你 憲法有違反嗎?有違反嗎?違反沒有啦 因為沒規定這行東西嘛這是刑事訴訟嘛 你現在說沒有嘛 有什麼先進國家的施行他就沒有違憲那我們的國家的死刑卻可能違憲 所以要辯論嘛"},{"start":3501.974,"end":3522.962,"text":"因為有人申請嘛,把憲法法院申請說你對這個憲法法定你去辯論有信心嗎?有啊,我對我的同仁絕對有信心有信心我們比賽看結果不然你是否同意認同說要不要執行死刑然後跟憲法死刑有沒有違憲這是兩回事"},{"start":3525.247,"end":3527.088,"text":"那如果憲法法庭這次宣告違憲"},{"start":3551.736,"end":3559.35,"text":"就宣告違憲嘛那請問現在判決確定的這些死情況是不是要馬上釋放"},{"start":3561.37,"end":3561.971,"text":"沒啦沒?沒"},{"start":3591.308,"end":3606.512,"text":"重新審理啊重新審理他就是 啊沒多他就是沒多啦 你變成再給他改啦那不是沒多 他要判什麼刑判什麼刑 那我告訴你啦那有的都要判二十年超過啦 你也剛好 這樣又不用綁出來有可能判不基督刑啊 那有可能又綁對不對判不基督刑為什麼不能綁啦"},{"start":3617.148,"end":3633.779,"text":"我沒有去投票 為什麼不能投票我告訴你 你要有義務要先跟國人講清楚啦如果宣告死刑違憲 那現在發私刑這些人有可能就是馬上要投票 歡迎東庭來幫你投票 我告訴你那是歡迎 他要考慮啦不是歡迎 你有義務跟法省說嘛 要給法庭安寧嘛"},{"start":3643.26,"end":3666.699,"text":"因為你這樣標示你不必辯護啊你不說要支持私刑、廢毒我沒說支持不支持,我是依法執行我們在說這個就是我透過我的新聞你的立場嘛所以不要這樣啦這是一個在台灣百姓以上大家的犯罪尤其現在地安詐騙這麼多地安詐騙不會破私刑但是這個廢毒私刑會讓人民覺得說我們對這個犯罪是在裝磅"},{"start":3671.064,"end":3682.414,"text":"法務部委員會不會這樣?法務部委員會很清楚如果宣告以前是違憲請問現在市委宣告違憲這次的法官違憲是現在宣告以後才違憲還是以前就違憲?"},{"start":3694.343,"end":3694.543,"text":"為什麼以前不違憲現在變成違憲"},{"start":3708.029,"end":3710.95,"text":"他如果說本來就違憲 那我請問你 違憲嘛 假如結果是 結果是違憲嘛 那我請問你 他才讓我們省省一行去的那四行要怎麼辦"},{"start":3735.882,"end":3736.982,"text":"我請問你 這些人可以救責嗎?"},{"start":3766.878,"end":3775.827,"text":"看每一宗案件的情形,如果有發生判決違法,要就緝嗎?你態度要清楚,我沒有騙你,我是在保護你,台灣人民是很關心你的。憲法法庭這條,我現在請教你,婚姻"},{"start":3790.748,"end":3798.135,"text":"總統府有沒有發公文要法務部研議陳水扁前總統的特赦案?"},{"start":3808.229,"end":3815.833,"text":"總統府有沒有找部長去開會研議陳水扁特殊案?沒有沒有?沒有?你最清楚喔?沒有啊有沒有我最清楚啊?你以為有沒有?沒有以為?以為沒有啊你說以為是什麼事情你看"},{"start":3834.005,"end":3834.346,"text":"有人跟我說有啦"},{"start":3853.488,"end":3857.15,"text":"現在的政務官,現在的政務官,你們的政務官裡面,他看不到,你一天做這麼嚴重的事,人家才會看不到,醫治社民法,大陸掉了"},{"start":3869.163,"end":3884.017,"text":"總統特赦前可以命令行政院轉達法務部演繹特赦請問部長總統府有要法務部演繹嗎?有透過行政院轉達演繹嗎?現在有沒有透過行政院要你演繹?沒有這麼重要的事情你都沒有在演繹"},{"start":3893.325,"end":3900.19,"text":"因為這是特色是總統的特權你們討論的過程是特色陳水扁一個人還是特色一批人啊沒這回事啦現在目前沒這回事我告訴你 有你現在告訴我沒有啊還是沒有啊啊接下來阿兵之後那些財產要怎麼處理 你們有討論啦所以為什麼說藐視國會"},{"start":3917.816,"end":3939.949,"text":"要來升職就是這樣 今天是剛好沒這條罪 如果有就補充 像我們兩個 我就會發脾氣 但是我不會嘛 因為我的人受用性很好沒有接受這個通緝 但是你說研究 我們隨時都在研究 執行的案件我們也是隨時都要掌握嘛總統府就是有 有給你討論 我如果沒抽誰來玩 我不會在這裡跟你講"},{"start":3941.35,"end":3951.994,"text":"但是不是要給你攔戶,我是跟你說這事情是金錢啦,因為這卡到怎樣,阿兵會卸掉那些財產要怎樣?阿來卸,他卸掉他存的那些案件要怎樣?阿不信的那些案件要怎樣?對不對?再來,那些錢要怎樣處理?阿卸是要卸單位兵一個人,還是要卸一倍的人?你們有討論,討論我不是叫你給我答案嘛"},{"start":3966.118,"end":3975.665,"text":"本來就是跟你說 講對這個問題就是要十分謹慎啦社會 我也沒有反對 但是怎樣第一個 他不道歉 不還錢你現在覺得 其實我是絕對反對老大嘛請嘆他認罪這樣對其他的人要怎麼交代一個道歉 把台灣一個道歉你道歉 認錯 輕情"},{"start":3994.653,"end":4008.454,"text":"要怎麼解決你們家的事?合情合理,因為做過元宿啦,我們隊伍特別的待遇,也合情合理啦,到今天沒悔改之心,你怎麼提到再改善的解決?"},{"start":4009.727,"end":4011.528,"text":"我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":4041.257,"end":4065.627,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位列席的主管 各位 大家早安 大家好部長我想請教一下 我們現在電信的這個詐騙案猖獗那在近年來我們這個詐騙的案子層出不窮那政府如何有效來打詐也成為我們台灣民眾非常關注的一個議題"},{"start":4066.943,"end":4092.365,"text":"那也不論各黨各派的委員也都對於政府打詐的這個成效提出許多的疑慮那本席今天也想就這個嚴重的影響的問題電信打詐來跟我們這個部長做一個討論那我想就教一下就是部長電信案的這個詐騙案逐年的暴增那我們在從這一張圖表"},{"start":4095.258,"end":4122.299,"text":"這張圖表示我們去年在立法院我們這個法務部進行專題報告時所提供的一個數據那我們從這裡面可以看到新收這個電信詐騙案的這個件數年年的上升占全國新收案件的這個占比也是不斷的往上跳我想請教部長就是這樣的暴增的情況是不是到目前為止還是在持續上升當中"},{"start":4124.221,"end":4137.596,"text":"應該比較和緩了,我們不敢說完全就消弭或是說已經狀況都非常的良好,但是我們確實也發揮了打擊詐騙的這樣的力道跟成果"},{"start":4138.537,"end":4154.131,"text":"至少有把它遏止下來因為我們採取了很多的測試包括法務部跟金管會跟NCC數位部內政部大家一起合作有在高檢署他的督導指揮之下有產生一些效果"},{"start":4154.571,"end":4155.632,"text":"我希望說其他還有一些細節像人頭門號的問題"},{"start":4179.144,"end":4192.173,"text":"人頭門號在現在已經有許多的詐騙案都是利用去申辦漫遊或是預付卡等人頭的門號作為犯案的工具當然可能是在第二類的電信業者那邊"},{"start":4193.626,"end":4193.666,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":4215.354,"end":4242.792,"text":"我們也是從法制面來做修法對於收購這些賬戶的所謂人頭賬戶的問題我們也從洗錢防治法還有刑法裡面去做規定所以對於人頭賬戶如果沒有正當理由交付賬戶當然如果有正當理由那是另外一回事如果沒有正當理由我們第一次是採取告誡的方式"},{"start":4246.055,"end":4269.487,"text":"交付這種人頭帳戶沒有正當理由的話我們才處以刑事的責任人頭帳戶跟人頭號碼應該是沒有直接的關係吧如果人頭帳戶就是給了他的號碼嘛所以這是有關聯的那還是一樣啦就這部分應該是要去嚴加把關啦因為這種問題可能就是"},{"start":4270.043,"end":4275.409,"text":"對於電信業者是否有責任我想請教一下就是說因為電信業者應該是積極要協助政府來打詐那部長認為我們電信業者應該是什麼樣的責任"},{"start":4291.497,"end":4309.324,"text":"因為電信法是其他部會的主管業務,如果要處以這個刑事的責任,我們法務部會提供一些意見或是在我們辦案中發現在行政的措施上應該要有所改善的話,我們也會提供意見給他們"},{"start":4310.845,"end":4333.423,"text":"那當然電信業者希望也能夠配合相關的機關來對於這個政府在維護社會安全保障人民的財產這樣的政策之下應該大家共同來努力因為現有的這個法令我們在管理的不足情況之下NCC在去年"},{"start":4334.224,"end":4349.808,"text":"有這個公布一個這個電信事業受理申辦電信服務風險管理機制的指引的一個這個法治化的這個草案他是電信事業用戶號碼使用管理辦法的一個草案"},{"start":4350.592,"end":4371.987,"text":"可是這個我們法務部有沒有參與這個草案的討論的過程那我們有沒有需要把這個法律的位階來做提升這部分主管機關他在制定或是修正相關的法案的時候都會邀法務部派人去參與我們會提供法制的意見好"},{"start":4375.049,"end":4389.083,"text":"提供意見而已部長我想請教一下我們還是針對電信詐騙案的部分我想請教部長就是說到底電信業者有沒有必要去負連帶的賠償責任"},{"start":4392.329,"end":4394.09,"text":"以現行的這個電信法則法規來看他在整個詐騙的過程裡面其實電信業者"},{"start":4420.427,"end":4440.766,"text":"像第一類他是沒有被處罰到啦如果有的話法則他第二類好像是20萬到100萬可是詐騙的這種金額在我們全台灣來看金額是非常大你就宜蘭縣在去年一整年詐騙金額已經超過7億了"},{"start":4443.357,"end":4462.529,"text":"有登錄的這些詐騙案去估算金額已經超過7億所以我主張就是說因為以電信業者來看應該他有把關的這種機制我們像現在有一些那個APP的系統他也可以幫助我們電信業者來做這個相關的把關的工具"},{"start":4463.39,"end":4484.929,"text":"那假設說有民眾回覆說這個接到的電話這個是疑似詐騙電話那累計到一個程度之後應該電信業者就要主張將這個號碼先停用請他來做說明那如果電信業者沒有去做這個就表示他沒有在做把關了嘛所以我覺得說應該是要給電信業者有一個連帶這個"},{"start":4487.899,"end":4509.391,"text":"責任他們才會積極的去參與部長您認為對我非常贊同委員的見解那尤其對於這些業者來講他應該要負起社會責任的你如果在把關上嚴格一點也許會減少一些被詐騙的機會對是好那另外一個"},{"start":4511.042,"end":4520.729,"text":"問題我想請教這個部長就是我們現在這個輔助AI輔助的這個利弊AI輔助的部分那因為"},{"start":4521.67,"end":4543.676,"text":"最近熱門的關鍵字在各行各業都在討論這個AI那近來因為我們大量的這個詐騙案也讓我們司法官的工作堆積如山那難以符合為了減輕我們司法官的案件壓力不管是在司法院還是法務部都會提出讓深層式的這種AI來輔助工作想法"},{"start":4544.244,"end":4563.285,"text":"那在今年的1月份司法節的學術研討中也討論到多個這種AI應用與司法之中的主題當中我想請教部長就是當時也有提到法務部已有兩個地檢署在試辦那想請問一下法務部目前試辦的成效如何"},{"start":4564.959,"end":4577.596,"text":"我們可以看到初步有一些成果可以幫助檢察官處理一些檢疫的案子譬如他們所整理的資料可以讓他們快速的來做判讀"},{"start":4579.596,"end":4600.801,"text":"結論也可以做參考,所以我們目前還在示範當中,我們有隨時在檢討。那成效是部長您滿意嗎?當然還有精進的空間,因為AI它本來就是不斷的在進步,我們也要隨著它的進步的腳步,也能夠提升它的效能。"},{"start":4602.582,"end":4617.578,"text":"雖然是可以減輕我們這個檢察官或是相關這個案件在審理的一些反鎖的一個簡單的工作可是在這個過程裡面我們要考慮到就是資安的問題資安的問題會不會因為在這個過程裡面會去那個洩漏"},{"start":4622.335,"end":4641.853,"text":"那這個部分部長我們有沒有什麼防範的這個辦法?有,我們也邀請一些資訊的專家還有給我們提供治安問題的防範的措施所以我們會特別注意到所以我們採取是個比較穩健的步伐來善用這個AI這種科技"},{"start":4642.574,"end":4658.125,"text":"好那也希望說我們這個AI系統的推動能夠比較順利來減輕我們檢察官還是這個基層的這些我們辛苦的這個工作同仁的這個工作量那也能夠達到實際的效果可是一定要這個"},{"start":4659.306,"end":4687.724,"text":"避免潛在風險存在的問題一定要先排除才能夠保障我們民眾的權益那以上我就拜託部長還有我們相關部會的各位主管就是針對打詐還有我們這個相關的問題能夠來做更多的這個努力避免我們這個全台灣這個被詐騙的這種案件一直層出不窮讓這個案件減少我相信也能夠讓我們整個社會秩序更加安穩"},{"start":4688.584,"end":4695.708,"text":"謝謝委員接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言蔡易瑜委員接下來請羅志強委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4719.028,"end":4742.297,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進、列席政府機關所長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體資訊先生那今天呢我想全民最關心的就是打詐那想蕭明遠萬事莫如打詐極但是打詐最重要的是張款要追回那另外呢我也認為要速力趕快速提柯真法還要各部會協力那我先來請教一下考考我們部長阿你對於這個詐騙的全球概況"},{"start":4745.938,"end":4773.372,"text":"在臺灣我們看到一個國外的統計資料在臺灣每個月會遇到一次詐騙的占比在全亞洲是第一名那意思是什麼我們每個月部長你這個月有沒有接到詐騙電話或詐騙的情勢我比較少你比較不是我說這個月這個月沒有還沒有沒有還沒有那你是屬於那四分之三我們大概四分之一的人每個月都會遇到詐騙的情況"},{"start":4774.741,"end":4801.491,"text":"很多人都接到電話我不好意思問在場沒有接過詐騙騷擾的應該都有我這個星期也接到了好那我們來看一下那詐騙算嚴重嗎台灣但是你看一看喔以各國的金額來看啦台灣的財損金額呢是排第23名你覺得咧這怎麼樣台灣人被騙但是台灣人沒有那麼多錢嗎你看到新加坡第一瑞士第二奧地利三你的觀感是怎麼樣"},{"start":4803.412,"end":4831.037,"text":"我們不能用這樣來覺得說我們值得慶幸但是真的是只要有財損我覺得我們就應該要努力的來防止部長的觀念正確其實我們看到這前幾名的國家很多是金融詐騙因為這些國家都是金融自由化相當高的國家國際化相當高的國家所以可能他們的詐騙是屬於一種專業型的犯罪在台灣相對金額少可是很多都是消費詐騙你同意嗎"},{"start":4831.877,"end":4858.226,"text":"同意好那這樣的實況你有了解的就可以來我們再往下看其實對民眾來講雖然損失的金額相較其他國家不是最多但是呢經過調查有將近六成的民眾覺得六成的民眾是損失在一萬五千元部長你現在身上有沒有一萬五千元沒有沒有那你跟我一樣加管研好那麼損失一萬五千元可能對很多中高收入的人不算什麼"},{"start":4858.854,"end":4876.184,"text":"但是這雖然不到六成的民眾他們損失在一萬五千以下但是將近七成的民眾認為這樣的損失對他們經濟產生顯著的影響你覺得是什麼原因損失的金額看起來不是很高可是為什麼民眾覺得影響很巨大你覺得呢"},{"start":4877.597,"end":4896.002,"text":"感受也非常不好明明是我的錢為什麼被人家這樣騙走我要告訴你原因你聽過那種不要用經濟學的名詞所得不高的人就算損失金額不大佔比會影響他的生活如果我一個月只賺3萬元我被騙1萬5你說嚴不嚴重"},{"start":4898.072,"end":4923.954,"text":"如果我一個月賺10萬元我被騙1萬5你就嚴不嚴重所以可見很多被騙的將近六成的民眾是屬於什麼樣我們這個社會上不要說牲斗小民他們是在為了自己的討生活很勉強維持的那這樣的人被詐騙個五千一萬他這個月就很難過日子了所以你了解為什麼詐騙生物痛絕的原因了吧我會往下看其實就是這樣子因為牲斗小民被消費詐騙損失個"},{"start":4926.366,"end":4953.387,"text":"幾千萬把塊但是占他的收入占他的生活影響非常巨大江洋大道去偷富豪的珠寶那個美術藝術品其實社會感受不太很強是不是這樣如果您對這樣的一個民怨有所了解那你就知道方向在哪裡了所以部長那你覺得要解決誰的問題富豪被金融詐騙的問題投資理財詐騙問題還是一般的薪水階級為了生活打拚的民眾被消費詐騙的問題"},{"start":4955.995,"end":4982.534,"text":"兩個都要重視啦但是對於大多數的民眾來講我們更加要加以防範來保障他們的財產好那我們來看一看齁那接下來我們來看一下其實呢很大的問題在哪裡其實呢其實監警呢其實對民眾來講他要的倒不是說把他繩子依法把他關關到一輩子多數的被騙的人呢最想要的是把錢拿回來"},{"start":4983.376,"end":4983.496,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5002.844,"end":5002.864,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":5026.164,"end":5051.507,"text":"接下來我們看看靈慧關懷主詐的跟我們追回的都很低但是隨著時間的成長我們看到了我們現在追回來的追回39億了這個還算不錯但你有沒有注意到靈慧關懷主詐的高達76億那表示什麼金融機構他看到民眾可能被詐騙他主卻不要讓他錢轉出去他的效果不錯喔"},{"start":5052.728,"end":5080.339,"text":"但是我們被騙了把他追回來的只追回39億是不是還有成長空間是所以這樣瞭解的我們這個政府在鼓勵民眾及澳大利亞民眾試詐然後呢金融機構主詐然後呢後面還要打詐調查局檢警要打詐那我們法務部呢最後隨同司法院懲詐但是最重要是什麼錢要追回來你同意嗎同意同意好那麼追回贓款為什麼比主詐還難呢你覺得"},{"start":5083.154,"end":5111.199,"text":"因為他詐騙後的這些金額啊很快的就能夠轉出去啊是有斷點啊要追索很難啊對而且有很多是在境外對境外的話透過其他各國的合作了好你講到前兩點了轉手迅速路徑難以複雜難以追查還有一個很重要的就算是抓到了錢扣到了司法單位很難判斷這些扣到錢是誰的損失我自己的家人就遇到過"},{"start":5112.139,"end":5133.984,"text":"就是被騙了,後來一堆被害人去,抓到了車手,抓到了帳戶,帳戶的錢是誰的?你有這個經驗嗎?怎麼分?怎麼證明這個錢,這個大水庫裡面的錢是哪個小水池流過來的?你了解了齁?好,那怎麼證明,接下來我們看一下,怎麼證明嫌犯的電子錢包或帳戶裡面是贓款?首先你要有金流,要有交易的金額,要有交易的時間。"},{"start":5134.964,"end":5157.006,"text":"但你要確認這個錢是跟誰騙的,你要有對話的明細,甚至取款的時候,車子取款的時候,ATM提領的監視器畫面,對不對?我們要透過這些方式再有辦法追回彰款的時候,明確地讓這些彰款回復到損失者身上,是不是這樣?可能你還沒有遇到過,我就感覺上你的回答不太清楚,民眾實際遇到的人都抓到了,錢也扣到了。"},{"start":5157.466,"end":5185.63,"text":"但是法官沒有辦法確定說哪些是你損失的錢好 那麼我們現在從這裡來看一下齁從車手往上追查首腦贓款的首要資訊流桃園地檢的業主任檢察官他說呢他用telegram還有自動粉繪查扣了手機拿去數位監視都沒有用那科技難以取得的資訊流我們要如何上當追蹤當然這科技要請教一些專家來協助我們那目前有哪些方法"},{"start":5187.262,"end":5193.577,"text":"因為這科技的專門技術我還要再問一下我們同仁同仁在場有沒有人知道"},{"start":5195.131,"end":5223.845,"text":"好那直接揭曉答案目前大概有這幾個目前透過小木馬監控手機才能取得罪證為什麼因為我說過你手機裡面你扣到手機它已經不見了所以必須即時的在犯罪嫌疑人手上植入俗稱的小木馬在他進行通訊的同時就同時取證那這裡面你要把這個小木馬植入釣魚的電子郵件或者利用嫌犯送場維修的時候或者利用他去上色情網站的時候就植入那植入這種木馬程式這裡面"},{"start":5225.026,"end":5246.068,"text":"目前他可以即時的複製收集資料傳送偵查機關那請問部長你知道這個方法嗎是我提到有被採納嗎因為所以我們知道這個方法是很有效所以在我們所草擬的科技偵查及保障法就要把他這個納進來但是目前這個是不被法院認為有證據能力的對不對"},{"start":5247.029,"end":5261.811,"text":"因為還沒有立法對沒有立法嘛好那科技偵查我們來談一下今天我就很關心的是科技偵查法包括哪些的項目那這些項目有些是檢察官保留也是法官保留包括GPS這個可能比較大家可以接受M化車現在到處在跑"},{"start":5262.552,"end":5285.053,"text":"收尋雲端伺服器那甚至呢在線上搜索但是線上搜這個知識體大在機房裡面但是最最可能被檢警所採用的就是通訊端的監察就是小木馬這個感覺上我應該這題問刑事警察局比較清楚好像我們法務部對這個問題的深入性不高好"},{"start":5285.851,"end":5309.814,"text":"那我想這個問題拉回來你覺得這些東西有沒有幫助我們去追贓讓民眾取回損失的金額有沒有幫助絕對有幫助那法務部做了哪些努力我們現在就趕快立法讓他在採取這種作為的時候有法源的依據不會產生爭議但是相對有很多民眾會擔心"},{"start":5311.235,"end":5339.344,"text":"科技偵查會侵犯他的隱私那這點法務部有什麼樣的應對我們採取最嚴格的審核所以大部分這邊所使用的方法都要經過法官的核准那除了科技偵查法之外除了法務部之外還需要哪些協助才能讓民眾取回賬款比如說金融機構協助管制人頭賬戶比如說FB這些社群網站要保留詐騙訊息這個是你法務部做得到的嗎"},{"start":5341.202,"end":5353.136,"text":"法務部來協調啦,但是我知道有些金融機構啊,他可以採信說如果你證明這個錢是從你的戶頭匯過來的話那我很快的,這筆錢在這個所扣押的帳戶裡面可以證明說這個錢是從哪裡來的,我就很快的還給你"},{"start":5359.744,"end":5385.989,"text":"所以你也知道民眾除了法務部協助去懲詐之外他們需要在偵辦的過程中跟其他機構的合作才能夠不然就是即時阻詐不然就是讓金流不要流到境外不然就是要在未來扣到賬款的時候能夠有效的拿回來需要其他部位的協助包括金融機構對不對那包括了像包括管制FB這種社群網站的這個主管機關對不對那有哪些機關"},{"start":5387.681,"end":5402.708,"text":"包括NCC包括數位部包括經管會還有包括內政部很好那請問這些單位您在提科技章法的時候有沒有把科技章法裡面沒有辦法涵蓋的部分你有把這些需要協助的這樣整理出來呢"},{"start":5403.7,"end":5429.7,"text":"他們這一部分是不放在科技偵查保障法但是我們高檢署有去協調這些執法單位那這些需求你們有整理出來了有好那我就這樣兩個第一請法務部盡速將科技偵查及保障法送立法院讓我們來滿足達成民眾需要懲詐打詐的這個目的好不好是什麼時候可以提出來我們已經提出已經送到行政院去審查但是還沒到我們這裡來那請你們追溯第二"},{"start":5430.561,"end":5450.263,"text":"法務部從懲詐在打造的分工上你們法務部是懲詐但是你懲詐之外你需要其他部會的協助之下你說高檢署已經有整理了是可不可以在一定期間內送到我這裡來送到我們委員會來好大概多久一個月內不用那麼久了我們盡快就給你我們現在做的那今天下半年就可以給我們了"},{"start":5450.743,"end":5451.104,"text":"我們接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":5466.993,"end":5492.765,"text":"謝謝主席,你也讓我喘三十秒,剛才是怎麼挑那麼多人,沒有...有好幾位沒有來,所以就速度比較快喘五秒而已,謝謝召委,請我們法務部陳部長部長,我想在座好多都是法學專家,我們社會法制委員會"},{"start":5494.976,"end":5516.506,"text":"我剛在辦公室我是稍微有聽了一下其他委員的一個詢答啦我是覺得比較奇怪啦 其實有一些觀念還是要講清楚啦司法及法制委員會喔 今年一年少的齁 會給你報告 你們吹車拔車 但是你們那些觀念還是要講清楚啦大法官事宪如果是死刑 宣告到最後是違憲"},{"start":5518.871,"end":5533.917,"text":"真的是全部都馬上放出來嗎?要怕死嗎?沒有辦法說嘛,不可能嘛不可能,什麼在開什麼玩笑,是要打死死亡的跟打死贏只因為大法官宣告說這個違憲,然後這些本來判處死刑人全部都放出來"},{"start":5536.439,"end":5541.341,"text":"不可能嘛 這不可能嘛 那個大法官就算是宣告是違憲也不是變成說 那個那是死刑 這個法官沒有再適用 那個條文沒有再去適用 不是說那些人變成無罪啊 這個觀念要先講清楚啊 但是啊 確實有一些問題啦"},{"start":5561.181,"end":5580.004,"text":"不好意思講錯了不是我的問題是跑樓梯的問題那就變成說這個人權確實是與時在俱進我們檢察官依法偵查犯罪法院其實也是依法在審判那這個法誰立的"},{"start":5581.462,"end":5607.602,"text":"立法院立的 立法院立的哪怕大法官會議裡面先宣告違憲那也有可能是往後不適用嘛 對不對也未必會去溯及啦大法官是不是會前衛到這個地步 我不知道但是呢 確實是值得去法務部為予籌謀啦 為予籌謀確實如果宣告違憲以後那接下來怎麼有一段期間的一個處置"},{"start":5608.956,"end":5630.425,"text":"那我今天反而要針對一些在黨的朋友提出的刑法的修正案他們說要徵定出犯妨礙司法公正罪不法關說罪跟棄保潛逃罪等相關的一個條文本席想在這邊請教部長就是說對於這個棄保潛逃罪你們立法的一個計畫裡面你們到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":5631.809,"end":5654.91,"text":"我先把它陳述完就說像譬如說在我的基本的觀念裡面我第一個我會覺得有沒有一罪兩罰的問題那第二個要不要去設限哪一些罪名我今天去跟林思敏跟趙薇我們待會意識衝突玩家受騙受傷我不會贏啊"},{"start":5656.212,"end":5682.386,"text":"法官搞不好看到你們這政治人物就很討厭還打架不當人民的表率在國會裡面還打架全部都拒保一萬塊有可能啊有可能啊我來下這個處分我敢啊我就特別討厭你們這些立法委員全部都一萬塊交保交保以後 哇 剛好要開會啊剛好要出國啊 安裝啊啊 或是你那個船票要寄到那個戶籍所在地啊沒收到 沒去"},{"start":5692.591,"end":5706.783,"text":"這也怪 我說我不知道條文是怎麼樣我第一個想法是覺得這也好怪第二個如果是告訴乃論之罪 兩個人打架打完啦我真的確實沒去開庭啦 講完也起訴啦可是一審我們和解啦告訴乃論之罪本來就可以撤回啊"},{"start":5712.301,"end":5727.387,"text":"那我又多了一個罪這好怪我是覺得很奇怪我是簡單舉這樣的一個例子來做一個提醒你說如果是重大犯罪你要去抑制他但是會不會你這個罪立出來以後"},{"start":5728.803,"end":5742.373,"text":"又會像我們前陣子啊頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們這個整個外醫間的情況又會一樣啦重罪了我要跑的哪怕你有一個棄保潛逃罪我哪會在乎你那個棄保潛逃罪對不對那變成全部都是輕罪的賣了不要去的變成稍微會受到約束的又變成都是一些犯了輕罪的"},{"start":5754.485,"end":5760.573,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個可能所以這個部分我是不是請部長來做一個說明因為變成說這種罪名都牽扯到"},{"start":5767.639,"end":5794.424,"text":"因果關係的問題啊都會有一個前面的罪才會導出後面的一個所謂的棄保潛逃那如果你沒有去限縮的話涉及到告訴來論之罪的或者說有一些輕罪的這個輕輕法重這個盜罪會不會變成有立法會有不平衡失衡的地方這個是不是要斟酌一下請部長回答"},{"start":5795.544,"end":5813.49,"text":"謝謝委員的關心確實對於涉嫌犯罪被檢察官交保我們就是希望他能夠按時的出庭接受法官也好或檢察官的偵查審判但是你如果沒有正當的理由那棄保"},{"start":5814.29,"end":5836.943,"text":"前逃的話當然第一個他可能發生的效果就是他的這個交保金就會被沒收了當然沒收完了以後是不是還要再處以刑事的責任再另外加一個獨立的犯罪這是值得思考的因為要構成犯罪我們一定要考慮他是有沒有必要性是不是一定要能夠用其他的方法"},{"start":5837.483,"end":5838.484,"text":"立法院現在在立法套什麼的遷移性他好像認為是法律萬能的"},{"start":5855.075,"end":5872.532,"text":"一直把他加重一直把他加重一直把他加重我就從以前我從年輕在大學念書的時候大家都說每個跌倒踏都說在踏刑罰都刑罰有簽譽性現在一直全部把他加重加重完真的有辦法去抑制整個犯罪嗎"},{"start":5874.042,"end":5884.712,"text":"所以我們在定刑法的時候要非常的謹慎是啊以前我們在看你跟我他刑法你看一把空一條開始齁 都開始為國家法益 變成社會法益還變成財產犯罪 現在都到病現在就是民粹 老百姓的財產受害的 喔 大家討厭討厭討厭那財產犯罪都一直加一直加一直加一直加一直加"},{"start":5897.532,"end":5915.764,"text":"反而是把我們以前也許啦過去的法學思維未必正確啦現在才是對的現在的民粹對的也不一定了那整個是顛覆掉那這個顛覆常常都是不是有一個體系的一個思考都是看到社會發生什麼事情就給它加重加重加重都不好啦我記得我當時在做的事的時候我當時在義美監獄的時候那時候裡面在管那些犯罪我講了好多次17%"},{"start":5927.364,"end":5949.692,"text":"現在你躲在監獄裏面,我每天都在電視上說,你這裡現在關於毒品的關於多少?都被撤回50%我們就知道這個是不對的,這個政策是不對的甚至這個立法其實沒有辦法抑制整個犯罪的,可是我們都用這樣的方式值得思考啦,我不敢說不對啦,因為我們立法院其實全部都是共犯啦,但是我有一個問題喔"},{"start":5950.912,"end":5976.399,"text":"不過委員我再補充說明除了刑法對於棄保潛逃我們除了可以考慮用其他的處罰之外還是我們也在修法之前也用電子監控的方式來防止他逃所以對於說需要的這些被告我們檢察官法官也會預知說要給他施予這種電子監控就是要防逃我反而覺得這比較合理"},{"start":5977.119,"end":5982.303,"text":"不要再多說了,好像大家都定心安的有囉!法律完備了!無私檢察官,無私法官,這樣而已啦我真的這樣子覺得啦我講個最極端的啊,到最後是啊,棄保點頭啦抓來,這個審判又很快,事實很明確啊哇!刑事犯罪當初被拒保的無罪判決確定,還在喊"},{"start":6004.238,"end":6016.751,"text":"還有可能啊 判決還沒確定自己 你說判決確定以後 你要照樣抓來抓回來就是執行而已嘛 判決還沒確定以後 多給你多增加一個罪名 然後到最後法院判下來是無罪的 這個我都覺得"},{"start":6019.093,"end":6019.553,"text":"委員會主管列席報告"},{"start":6043.428,"end":6044.709,"text":"主管機關在應對作為跟政策上我倒覺得稍嫌單一性的一個應付怎麼講呢"},{"start":6059.119,"end":6077.136,"text":"就是沒有一個比較健全的制度跟養成上來養成教育上來做一個全盤的一個檢討我舉例就是說目前比較管理比較類似運動博弈的就是運採的一個條例那這裡面現行法的規範只能顧及到台灣運採有關開盤的"},{"start":6079.838,"end":6081.219,"text":"現在以運動彩券發行條例裡面,你們有沒有發現是不是可以再去把它補強的地方?"},{"start":6104.826,"end":6105.867,"text":"職棒你們成功了,我覺得職棒有成功"},{"start":6123.537,"end":6140.149,"text":"所以我們會複製職棒的經驗希望在職籃也跟各個這些職籃的團體讓他們結合聯盟給他們球員的一個教育還有制度面上怎麼樣做比較完善這個都已經在做了"},{"start":6140.99,"end":6150.936,"text":"我是覺得說我們職棒的部分我們法務部這個地方我們也提供了那麼多的一個經驗甚至於派專責檢察官或檢察事務官到球場去監賽讓他這當然保護選手也讓整個賽事會比較公平"},{"start":6158.74,"end":6179.019,"text":"那就比較可惜了 像部長講的說我確實我們的職燃的部分要再加緊的一個腳步了你看去年發生的幾間的遷徒案甚至是發生在已經成立21年半的這個SBL這個整個超級籃球賽裡面所以我希望部長我們家成功的經驗在職燃的部分"},{"start":6180.98,"end":6205.628,"text":"可以再部署,不要再部上那個過去職棒這樣的一個後塵你當年建制這樣防堵的一個機制那我看經歷過這幾個跨部會的一個協商演繹以後就像部長講的,把它複製上去因為這個球賽大家喜歡,但是這個公平的環境我是覺得我們法務部家協助把它給建立"},{"start":6206.408,"end":6208.035,"text":"不然你職棒做得好 你說職籃才做得好"},{"start":6211.544,"end":6211.864,"text":"謝謝主席我先就教部長"},{"start":6239.98,"end":6265.273,"text":"那部長我想我們現在大家很關心的就是蘇丹紅流竄全台這個事件目前我們的食安事件已經造成我們的民眾非常恐慌大家都不知道說到底現在這些熟知的食品公司生產的這些食品到底能不能吃人心惶惶大家到底要安心吃什麼所以我要請問部長高檢署"},{"start":6268.642,"end":6286.669,"text":"不是有那個打擊民生犯罪督導小組嗎?是 服務界小組嗎?那另外地檢署也有食品藥物犯罪的查緝小組齁?有所以我問部長齁請問那現在針對這些食品安全的事件尤其蘇丹紅這個事件"},{"start":6287.95,"end":6299.483,"text":"高檢署的打擊民生犯罪督導小組已有啟動這個小組的平台來就這個事件做一個"},{"start":6301.044,"end":6321.253,"text":"有關蘇丹紅的事件有跟委員說明一下那關於蘇丹紅的這一部分我們已經有三個地檢署就已經啟動偵查而且也曾經向法院生壓其中有兩個人獲准所以其他的還有交保的"},{"start":6321.693,"end":6348.204,"text":"所以我們對於這個違反食品安全衛生如果涉及刑責的話檢察機關都是會全力以赴是部長您這個回答我今天早上看了您昨天4點多發布的新聞稿那新聞稿裡面剛提到應該講的就是有雲林還有新北還有高雄地檢署3個地檢署那我們有這個地檢署都有積極介入偵辦協助偵辦這些不法業者"},{"start":6350.965,"end":6368.618,"text":"但是我剛才提到的就是說高檢署的打擊民生犯罪督導小組你有這個平台嗎有那你現在只有三個縣市你有督導全國各縣市的地檢署同步的協助我們各地方政府來追查這些蘇丹紅的流向嗎"},{"start":6370.499,"end":6396.24,"text":"這個小組有啟動嗎?有啟動嗎?我相信應該有,他們的資訊都會流通,然後互相支援。你講相信有,到底有或沒有?你講相信有?沒有啦,絕對會啦。他們對這個案子的處理都會向上呈報,呈報的話在高檢署,高檢署都會發現是不是別的轄區也有同樣的狀況,他們就會...部長我點出這個問題,所以連你都不知道?"},{"start":6396.9,"end":6402.227,"text":"高檢署到底有沒有啟動這個打擊民生犯罪督導小組?我相信因為...地檢署也有食品藥物的犯罪查緝小組"},{"start":6413.123,"end":6429.302,"text":"到底這些小組你成立這麼多小組這些食品安全的事情發生的時候這些小組有沒有發揮他的一個功能因為平時他們就會跟當地的衛生單位還有這些食品檢驗單位都會保持密切的聯繫"},{"start":6430.243,"end":6458.631,"text":"那平台的功能就是要有資訊的互通嘛討論嘛如果案件發生的時候要共同來查緝所以你要主動嘛你不是被動嗎這樣看起來就是說好像我們的高檢署或者是低檢署的這些這個督導小組都是很被動嗎而且可能各縣市政府告訴你之後你才去這個去啟動這個平常都有聯繫那我想只要一發生就會立即的來處理"},{"start":6460.29,"end":6470.863,"text":"所以這些督導小組的功能到底不是現在你才匯報匯整說有三個縣市他現在這個偵查的一個結果怎麼樣有收納的幾個人但是你現在有這個小組你是不是應該"},{"start":6476.95,"end":6490.66,"text":"發生這些事情我們檢方高檢署的這個督導小組或者食品地點署的食品查緝小組就開始自己要去主動的協助了啊不是要主動 能夠一直被動嗎"},{"start":6491.801,"end":6507.258,"text":"不會啦,平常他們就會很積極啦所以我想這個,既然有小組,都道小組,我們就要比較積極啊尤其這影響到人民的這種食品安全嘛,這是重要的好啦,第二個,來問郭董"},{"start":6509.46,"end":6532.472,"text":"我想我們就有關剛才那個謝榮介委員也提到金門海域這一次的這個事情就我們海巡艦艇跟大陸漁船碰撞事件這個事情那在查緝過程中造成兩死兩傷的事件我想我用比較中性就是在查緝的過程中造成這個不幸的事件那請部長請教部長那我們金門地檢署對這個案子"},{"start":6537.535,"end":6563.77,"text":"我們的定調是什麼是過失致死還是其他的一個方向來偵辦任何可能他都要來蒐集證據來處理那現在他們還在努力的在查證然後包括要等待鑑定的結果因為涉及到有人死亡嘛那他們第一時間就接獲通報以後也採取相驗的動作嘛"},{"start":6564.35,"end":6589.422,"text":"所以是朝過失致人於死的這個不一定有人死亡當然要後續的修正然後才能去做認定我想這個大家都心知肚明這個就像一般車禍案件一樣警方或者說警方追逐我們的逃犯發生碰撞事件這個然後有人死亡那這種情況那到底說這個是"},{"start":6590.803,"end":6617.541,"text":"我們在檢方在因為有人死亡我們在辦這個案子的時候到底檢方查詢的過程是合法或者有過失不當就是這種案子嘛怎麼不需要遮遮掩掩的嘛沒有這是事實認定的問題啦我們來尊重所以因為有人死亡所以你偵辦的方向就過失致死嘛你還有什麼方向可以偵辦的都有可能啦一般的我們死亡檢察官就相應也有可能是意外死亡意外死亡"},{"start":6620.478,"end":6628.531,"text":"但是現在是因為 當然最後一定是意外死亡但是他是過失還是他沒有過失 或者是過檔 這不是我們要查的"},{"start":6631.222,"end":6652.189,"text":"這都有可能嘛所以說你委員講的當然也是查了一個方向之一啦所以你是往一定是朝過失之人的不是一定啦就是說這個也不排除但是他也是他偵查的方向之一啦我不是說朝這個方向偵辦我們的海巡人員就過失啦而是說你是朝這個方向偵辦那到底"},{"start":6652.789,"end":6680.597,"text":"在整個查細的過程有沒有不當或者有沒有這個我們所謂的過失的問題這查清楚就好了嘛因為人死亡啊 對不對所以我們在查嘛 對不對所以我才問你說我們是不是往這個方向偵辦嘛各種方向都有可能你各種方向都去查也好啦反正就把事情查清楚這是本來就去拿官的責任啦這個事情大概我們還要查多久那"},{"start":6682.711,"end":6689.093,"text":"施法檢察官趕快把這個事情查清楚查清楚還原真相儘快彌平這個爭議讓事件趕快落幕"},{"start":6711.34,"end":6736.815,"text":"所以現在大家期待你們檢察官金門地檢署查出的一個事實的真相是怎麼樣他們充分的瞭解所以要盡快 不然現在這些惡性螺旋 惡意螺旋一直往上升高啊所以大家留待給我們偵辦單位一個空間啦信任的就是金門地檢署我現在看到整個到最後的現在慢慢聚焦在司法的一個偵辦"},{"start":6739.578,"end":6755.086,"text":"部長你也說希望能夠禁訴啦其實我講的這種案件真的要那麼久來偵辦嗎當然他也要一些家屬的配合還有其他單位的配合啦所以我想訴真訴潔連最初的死因的一個結果大家都"},{"start":6755.606,"end":6758.387,"text":"司法偵查是當然會尊重家屬的意見但是最後的結果還是以我們偵查的一個證據我們來做出認定"},{"start":6777.233,"end":6802.038,"text":"所以我意思說我們依照客觀的證據趕快去給他這個速審速審家屬也不在場因為我們不知道發生什麼事情所以你要看客觀的事跡你市政但是我們覺得一般我看司法事務沒有家屬的意見我們會尊重但是不是作為我們判定的這個事實過程的一個依據當然啦我會說需要各方的配合要加速不是只有單靠檢察官而已"},{"start":6803.858,"end":6829.803,"text":"那我讓我們大家來努力嘛這樣拖太久了這個大家對我們法務部檢察署的期待單獨的事情就不會落幕啊所以我是希望說法務部能夠速增速解啦不要拖太久啦我會轉達對啦該辦的該查的證據就快速嘛不要在案子一直拖嘛你越拖下去二一螺旋一直升高嘛"},{"start":6830.723,"end":6832.264,"text":"法務部調查局搜索台灣辣品公司查扣"},{"start":6856.88,"end":6884.417,"text":"執行適當且有相關高階主管與職務利害關係者接觸頻繁多次參與職務有利害關係者的引咽應酬及求續嚴重違反相關規定另外調查局有部分外勤佔據點工作費憑證核銷也難為事法這些為師有監察院已經提案糾正調查局"},{"start":6885.518,"end":6900.778,"text":"是不是局長?確實有這個事吧?是,有,監察院有在調查中是,那有提出糾正了嗎?目前我們是有看到他的新聞稿啦但是他的糾正的意見或者是調查報告我們還沒有收到"},{"start":6901.468,"end":6927.883,"text":"那我們自己內部的調查的這個結果呢?完成沒有?因為這個案子它其實有涉及到另外一個偵辦中的案件那因為另外那個偵辦中的案件正在還沒有癥結那所以事實上我們有一些的相關的事證是沒有那麼清楚但是我們就我們可以掌握的部分我們有提供給監察院然後我們自己內部也有做一些的調查有做懲處了嗎?"},{"start":6929.123,"end":6955.605,"text":"目前還沒有我們還是要看監察院他正式的報告到了以後我們會根據他裡面所提的我們再來檢討改進包含如果是制度面有需要改善的那我們會檢討制度如果是執行面的話我們也會加強在執行上的要求那個局長我想這些事件都大家造成大家對第二局的觀感不佳所以我想第二局應該就是盡速把這些該懲處的就懲處"},{"start":6958.694,"end":6980.552,"text":"我想這些對調查局的名譽都造成很大的不良影響調查局要自清所以你要儘速做出懲處的內容還有具體改善措施我想調查局要儘速來做你不要等監察院的調查結果你自己做出行政調查不可以嗎"},{"start":6983.734,"end":6994.498,"text":"我們會盡快,但是監察院有提到的部分,那這個部分我們當然一定要針對監察院所提到的,我們來加以檢討改進。好,謝謝,那我們接下來請吳思瑤委員發言好,謝謝主席"},{"start":7007.009,"end":7032.71,"text":"法務部同仁大家好我是司堯我是法制委員會來這裡學習的那如果有任何發言有不夠精確大家隨時指正我們理性對話我跟每一個部會都會用這個當開場牌我不會說你們藐視國會大家放心言所當言為所當為這是我每個人的職責包括我現在拋出來的議題我也是言所當言為所當為"},{"start":7034.131,"end":7059.119,"text":"推動反歧視法或平等法yes or no這是我今天就教於大家的好下一頁我想先問一下部長這是發生在我自己選前的一個傷害事件就是有這個楊志良前署長去站台的時候就說了吳思堯賣狗雜貝啊不可能生啊啦啊 絕子絕孫了"},{"start":7061.416,"end":7090.018,"text":"請問這樣的言論是不是涉及了歧視這是非常不恰當這是對於性別對於婚育的歧視那其實對我自己的個人的傷害是小我也很勇敢的告訴所有的女性同胞跟社會訴求我要告訴全天下的楊志良們管好自己的嘴女人的子宮輪不到你來管"},{"start":7091.311,"end":7092.251,"text":"下一頁我也再一步請問這就發生在剛開議的國會現場"},{"start":7118.243,"end":7144.217,"text":"有國民黨的黨編說不再讓民進黨圈養的家禽家畜來當部會首長部長啊你是家禽家畜嗎這樣的言論是不是也是歧視呢這樣非常的不尊重非常的不尊重就對於職業的不尊重而且貓狗好可愛喔不要歧視貓狗"},{"start":7147.03,"end":7169.009,"text":"這樣子的職業的歧視在國會議員的口中說出來我認為非常的可異也非常的可惡官員都是有尊嚴有專業有背膀的絕對不是如這些委員所說的家禽家畜一般就是被圈養的我要替你們抗議下一頁"},{"start":7172.011,"end":7198.288,"text":"又是一個最近的事件很不幸的離開了我們的陳俊翰律師人權律師他一生為了台灣的人權自由在奮鬥他一生為了弱勢者身心障礙者在奔走發聲但是也曾經有中國的媒體人在節目上說台灣的造勢場合就是一場秀把殘疾人士推上去煽情"},{"start":7200.017,"end":7200.377,"text":"再回到社會"},{"start":7227.285,"end":7246.582,"text":"校園一再的出現歧視性的污名化的言論我們的教育現場失靈了嗎就以這兩年來臺中一中園遊會的海報歧視原住民族再到臺大言論自由月也再一次發生歧視原住民族"},{"start":7247.443,"end":7265.256,"text":"的言論還有臺大學生在競選他們的學生會政府會長也發生歧視性別歧視原住民族的言論校園都發生這樣的歧視言行"},{"start":7266.383,"end":7288.915,"text":"我當然我過去的教育文化委員會我不斷的要求教育部門透過教育下手導入正確的觀念今天我在這裡我質詢面對的我有機會來跟法務部門的各位專家們對話部長除了我剛說的原住民族的性別的身障者的職業的歧視之外你能夠想像的歧視還有哪些"},{"start":7290.902,"end":7311.756,"text":"還有言論上網路言論上的一些霸凌還有在一些場合對人的不尊重部長回答的是發生在哪些場域如果說以現在我剛剛提供的是幾種歧視的樣態事實上歧視的樣態無所不在"},{"start":7312.737,"end":7341.567,"text":"包括對於語言是一種歧視對於宗教會有歧視對於黨派會有歧視對於你的出生地對於你的性傾向對於你的年齡對於你的容貌常常我們會講胖瘦美醜包括對於各類的職業現場都有各種歧視所以歧視性是非常多的台灣過去對於歧視的法規是散列在各法"},{"start":7342.406,"end":7351.63,"text":"沒有一個一致性的原則好下一頁所以台灣為什麼需要我在這裡倡議我們需要一部反歧視法或者是稱為平等法有幾個理由第一個讓人權條約國內法化台灣從1970年來"},{"start":7358.892,"end":7384.04,"text":"來簽訂了消除一切形式的種族歧視國際公約開始我們陸陸續續的簽訂了公民與政治權利國際公約經濟社會文化權利國際公約消除對婦女一切形式的歧視公約兒童權利公約身心障礙者權利公約再再的告訴我們臺灣要跟上世界聯合國的人權倡議包括3月21號快到了是聯合國訂定的世界反歧視日"},{"start":7385.549,"end":7411.932,"text":"那在3月我很把握3月可以在這裡跟大家討論如果讓我們的反歧視法或平等法的訂定能夠往前推一步我認為非常有意義第二個理由下一頁臺灣為什麼需要一部反歧視法也正是我們要推動SDGS18項聯合國國際大家都在遵循的當中的第10點就是減少不平等"},{"start":7412.532,"end":7426.081,"text":"而這個減少不平等就來自於人跟人之間的不平等要消滅乃至於國跟國之間的不平等要被消滅所以回應國際也回應台灣社會的現況"},{"start":7428.671,"end":7448.77,"text":"討論反歧視法或者是平等法我認為此期時也下頁也跟部長報告我整理出來臺灣的反歧視條款是散列各法的現行的法律是欠缺一致性的當然我們性別平等教育法性別工作平等法都是思堯過去很努力的我們也修訂完成了就業服務法規範的是18個項目的歧視"},{"start":7452.273,"end":7466.492,"text":"他禁止入出國籍移民法、原住民族工作權益保障法、監獄行刑法、羈押法都有清楚的對於反歧視條款但是他散列於各法下一頁"},{"start":7468.004,"end":7497.096,"text":"那我跟您分享一下國際的經驗加拿大人權法1977年就定了他的定定是源自於世界人權宣言他的歧視項目歧視的方法透過騷擾或傷害對於哪些生活領域可能在職場在僱傭關係在各種服務的提供上都可能面對了被歧視的可能所以他在組織上透過一個立法去反映在他們組成的加拿大的人權委員會好下一頁"},{"start":7498.362,"end":7508.344,"text":"看看德國德國2006年整合了很多的法規訂定了平等法他的歧視的樣態歧視的方法歧視會發生的生活領域"},{"start":7509.437,"end":7535.956,"text":"他都非常清楚的兼顧而且他們組成了聯邦反歧視局在下一頁英國2010年的平等法他更進步他甚至納入了性別重製也就是變性人也不能被歧視那英國回應在組織面向他成立了英國平等及人權委員會他從2006年先訂定平等法到2010年進一步有一個"},{"start":7536.937,"end":7551.088,"text":"第二版2.0的平等法下一頁再看看瑞典他把九部反歧視法向台灣散列各法把它融合成一法在2008年瑞典的反歧視法上路了他們設定的組織是平等監察室"},{"start":7554.531,"end":7574.54,"text":"在下一頁我們鄰近的好朋友日本2016年全國性的有一個消除仇恨言論法這是中央法規進一步的地方政府我也看到國際的期刊2020年川崎市這個地方市議會進一步的透過地方市議會的立法來訂定川崎市的反歧視條例"},{"start":7576.101,"end":7601.083,"text":"而他進一步的勸告命令如果說不聽勸告無效6個月內三度違規我可以公開你這個歧視者的姓名資訊然後進一步刑事告發最高可處50萬日元因為日本跟我們比較近他也比較接近2020年的新法文花一點時間來論述所以我講了這麼多都來自於哪裡下一頁部長"},{"start":7603.529,"end":7620.323,"text":"臺灣已有立委提了不分黨派國民黨也有反族群歧視法民進黨也有族群平等及反歧視法已經有4個委員的提案待審中但是他們是focus在種族的歧視面向那很多都是原住民族的委員提出的下一頁"},{"start":7621.624,"end":7635.356,"text":"反歧視法在臺灣我剛整理的東西就是你們這一本部長法務部2019年做的跟中研院合作的我裡面密密麻麻的筆記我所有的PPT都來自於我想讀你們的資料"},{"start":7636.57,"end":7662.712,"text":"你們甚至訂出了67條的具體條文你們在組織面還主張說中央主管機關行政院平等處要成立地方主管機關是各縣市政府市政府要成立平等委員會那監察機關呢監督機關是國家人權委員會禁止制度包括救濟的途徑罰則機制標準如何訂你們都細緻的做到包括需要保護的歧視面向你們都列了"},{"start":7663.653,"end":7679.134,"text":"除了法務部在做：我們的人權及轉型正義處也有反歧視法的進展開了好幾場公聽會我都有收集這些資料所以臺灣的政府不是沒有準備在下一頁"},{"start":7680.755,"end":7705.582,"text":"陳建仁院長在回答委員的質詢的時候他也承諾這個是去年接受質詢上個會期他承諾這個會期要送出行政院版本的反歧視法但是他是聚焦於原住民族的種族反歧視然後他責成內政部去談現在就是個問題了我們有內政部從種族歧視下手的種族歧視的法律"},{"start":7706.73,"end":7731.825,"text":"反歧視的法律還有法務部你們自己做好調研我如果沒有給你們壓力沒有提出這個提醒很可能我們就優先去走內政部那一條可是這是一個機會我們可以擴大對於各種形式的歧視all in one一部專法來處理它否則內政部去處理種族歧視的然後性別的放在性別平等三法裡頭我們又回到一個散裂"},{"start":7738.064,"end":7759.297,"text":"主管機關沒有辦法整合社會的共識也沒有辦法趨於更強大的一致性這是一個機會部長您覺得我今天提出來的倡議您認為法務部要不要更積極的去研議你們有的委外研究跟你們已經有的具體版本"},{"start":7760.342,"end":7782.694,"text":"要不要跟內政部談談?要不要跟人權這個平等處談談?您的看法呢?是真的佩服委員對於這一部分深入的研究那剛剛委員所提示的這些重點希望能夠法務部能夠盡力我們會在行政院的人權處開會的時候來做充分的表達"},{"start":7783.413,"end":7811.116,"text":"那您的專業意見您同意我的說法是all in one由法務部來做一個平等法或是反歧視法或者是好內政部去走你的種族歧視法我們做過研究當然我們會提供這個研究的結論講給行政院人權處你知不知道我知不知道我有做研究但是我不知道裡面很詳細的內容但是我們會以這個研究的報告提供給現在在主責的行政院人權處做參考"},{"start":7812.597,"end":7830.557,"text":"我跟您兩個月去對話跟研議好嗎兩個月來跟我講我不是說兩個月要端出法案而是說你們研議cooking跨部會怎麼來分工我們是all in one的方式還是先走種族的反歧視的法我跟你們兩個月時間您好好再跟大家跨部會去談一談好嗎"},{"start":7832.103,"end":7845.315,"text":"我會轉達給行政院這個人權處因為他現在在整合嘛他在主責嘛不要只是轉達啦我看這本很完整的很好啦是很好啦你們能夠Do more and do better"},{"start":7847.439,"end":7861.669,"text":"法律面維持法制序的一致性組織面整合所有的政策工具單一組織來推展制度面我們要創建一個不論誰執政都可以讓反歧視跟平等的價值跟觀念在台灣可以"},{"start":7862.429,"end":7876.002,"text":"可長可久的推展下去所以一部專訪我認為是需要的但是我同時也聽到社會不同的意見他們擔心這樣會對言論有太多的管控有很多可以對話所以透過對話匯聚共識"},{"start":7878.86,"end":7895.007,"text":"立法或修法是我們可以用的政策工具我今天坐在這裡除了發生在我吳思耀自己身上的性別的歧視的事件我要把它正向轉為我的政策能量之外我也要為在天上的陳俊翰律師"},{"start":7896.297,"end":7909.192,"text":"我們要為這樣一個可貴的臺灣的人格者持續不斷的奮鬥下去臺灣不能再有任何人輕易的對於另外的人"},{"start":7911.056,"end":7923.535,"text":"親意的說出歧視性的言論我們要帶著陳俊漢律師的責任跟使命奮鬥下去部長 積極一點您能做的不是只有轉達這一本 寫得很好"},{"start":7926.727,"end":7926.827,"text":"翁曉琳委員"},{"start":7957.39,"end":7974.277,"text":"部長各位司長處長大家好我是翁小玲那我想今天就針對司法院所提出來的這個立法計畫還有部分的業務報告我在這裡提出一些問題想要就教部長那首先我想在這次的部長所提出來的立法計畫裡面有一個很大的部分是為了要這個執行"},{"start":7989.686,"end":8006.104,"text":"打炸綱領必須要增加檢察官助理增加檢察官助理這個部分從去年其實就開始要增加今年又提出了150位的員額"},{"start":8009.366,"end":8024.704,"text":"那我看了一些這個報告新聞然後部長這裡好像預計在2025年大概要增加到600位不知道部長可不可以就您的準備要增加檢察官助理的計畫可以再幫我做個說明謝謝"},{"start":8027.331,"end":8051.793,"text":"謝謝委員的關心那檢察官助理從去年就行政院合給我們100位這是臨時人員那今年再補充再增加另外增加150位這是暫時性的來解決現在我們需要的打詐人力那我們希望能夠讓他能夠在法律上明文的規定在法院組織法裡面增加"},{"start":8053.334,"end":8080.265,"text":"這個明文是可以有檢察官助理那這是第一個說明第二個部分就是600位是整個檢察機關所有的相關人力包括檢察官檢察事務官關護人法警等等所有的檢察人力我們是4年那人事總署行政院核定給我們600位所以跟檢察官助理是兩回事"},{"start":8080.965,"end":8104.53,"text":"好的謝謝部長的說明那麼我現在這個PPT裡面這個可以看得出來其實就目前我們檢察官這個在檢察官的編制檢察士官書記官其他輔助人力的部分其實是還有缺額的那想請問部長為什麼在現在還有編制缺額的情況之下沒有補助而需要再額外增加人力"},{"start":8106.887,"end":8130.738,"text":"不管是檢察官檢察事務官他們如果要入用的話經過考試及格還要經過一段時間的訓練檢察官需要兩年檢察事務官需要九個月所以反不濟急現在打詐需要人力是及時的因此行政院才先給我們一些臨時人力專門在負責打詐的輔助"},{"start":8132.839,"end":8149.02,"text":"那未來當然我們現在有缺額並不是說沒有在使用而是在授訊當中了還沒有分發的這都已經規劃在裡面了不是說沒有用那未來還要再增加的話必須再增加原額"},{"start":8150.459,"end":8173.235,"text":"這是兩回事啦 好 謝謝不好意思 麻煩幫我回到上一個PPT好 OK 對不起 那我想這個因為你們從去年開始你們就已經增加了100位的這個檢察官助理可是我們可以看到其實就整個電信詐騙的這個件數是居高不下好像看起來增加檢察官助理並沒有這個"},{"start":8175.296,"end":8191.554,"text":"真正的可以去協助檢察官然後做更好的一個工作的協助那麼就這個部分來說我個人想要提出一個問題就是檢察官助理跟檢察事務官"},{"start":8192.494,"end":8206.946,"text":"畢竟他們的性質還有他們的專業能力是有明顯不足的就是他們中間的落差很大那就檢察官助理來說目前應該是各個地方檢查"},{"start":8208.147,"end":8229.365,"text":"官自己去招聘對是那麼就他的法律的專業能力各方面不知道就是未來有你們準備怎麼樣的領選方式因為我不希望就是檢察官助理成為是這個他沒有什麼專業能力可是卻只是佔了這個位置沒有辦法不對檢察官"},{"start":8229.813,"end":8253.908,"text":"有提供更好的協助那就這部分的檢察官的助理有沒有可能未來也採取統一的領選領選的方式然後建立起他們有一定的這個法律的素養而不是只是在檢察官旁邊做些這個小助理然後處理些無關痛癢的一些事情"},{"start":8255.7,"end":8277.623,"text":"將來如果規定很明確是法制化以後當然會透過一定的法律程序還要經過嚴格的訓練培育以後才會來分發這個跟檢察官跟檢察書館一樣但是現在是因為要馬上來解決打詐的人力需求所以我們就分配給各地檢自己來招考"},{"start":8278.328,"end":8304.117,"text":"那招考當然有相當的條件所以現在去年才開始實施所以從這個數字看起來還看不出它顯著的效果那去年各地的反應都非常好認為可以幫助檢察官處理一些事務性的東西包括你詐騙的案件的付表的製作資料的彙整幫助很大的所以他們能力是可以負擔他們的工作可以升任的"},{"start":8304.477,"end":8326.571,"text":"那將來的如果是法制化以後當然要求會更嚴格會做統一的規定是其實這個部分的話就法制外面涉及到編制內編之外涉及到整個的國家的人事經費成本的增加請問人事行政總署有同意你們增加這個原額嗎現在就是在協調應該基本上同意"},{"start":8327.563,"end":8350.382,"text":"是嗎?可是我聽到的好像不是這樣當然他們有不同的考慮我不曉得委員指的是法制化的還是指臨時再增加的150位這兩個方向他們其實都是贊同的當然有一些細節的東西經費的來源還有整個總原額法的限制等等他們會提出一些看法"},{"start":8350.842,"end":8357.245,"text":"是因為整個政府機關都是在瘦身所以組織精檢這件事情是很重要那當然我也瞭解有關於現在這個檢查人力的一些配置的問題其實就目前來說有檢查士官有書記官還有其他的這個相關的檢查人力其實應該如果說在整個的檢查的這個程序"},{"start":8373.712,"end":8375.773,"text":"法官和檢察官離職的比例"},{"start":8402.645,"end":8418.242,"text":"有逐年的提高不知道部長可不可以回應一下為什麼會有這樣的一個狀況以及這個檢察官如果他是自願離職的話通常大概會是在什麼樣的一個資歷在什麼樣的位置上面他們會離職"},{"start":8420.905,"end":8450.145,"text":"這是每個人他的一個生涯的規劃他也許擔任過檢察官法官一段時間以後他想要換個跑道但我們都予以尊重當然我們的工作環境的改善也是他考量之一我們也盡最大的能量能夠改善大家的工作環境像檢察官助理就是能夠解決他一些工作負擔的壓力所以每個人他的思考不一樣但是我們會注意到這件事情"},{"start":8450.365,"end":8450.565,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8468.675,"end":8470.076,"text":"其實我很關心受刑人的健康權的問題"},{"start":8490.772,"end":8518.022,"text":"聯合國的受刑人的處遇最低標準規則又俗稱所謂的曼德拉規則裏面有提到為受刑人提供健康照護是國家的責任受刑人應該享有健康照護標準等等並且要能夠獲得必要的照顧不因其他的法律意外受到歧視那當然我們知道現在受刑人已經可以享有健保的醫治可是呢在"},{"start":8519.102,"end":8537.008,"text":"對於受刑人可不可以申請接戶保外就醫的部分其實就目前各地方的監獄還有這個矯正署其實看起來都是審查蠻嚴格的我們看一下這個在矯正署就是一百"},{"start":8542.911,"end":8555.529,"text":"監察院曾經在109年的時候有針對矯正署在有關於受刑人保外就醫的處理的部分提出了糾正案那在這個糾正案裡面最重要的還是認為這個"},{"start":8558.112,"end":8579.568,"text":"金域並沒有還有矯正署並沒有對於其實是需要保外醫治的人士醫治的這個受刑人然後給予他一個及時的治療那麼就這個部分來說大家可以看一下在監察院的調查報告裡面他就其實針對了有一些受刑人他的提出要申請這個保外就醫的"},{"start":8587.535,"end":8609.851,"text":"例子其實我們看到他們申請的這些提出要申請保外就醫的狀況其實都蠻嚴重的可是呢其實我們的矯正署和監獄並沒有同意因此這個矯正署其實在這個部分來說他就提出了糾正案希望未來這個矯正署跟監獄的部分能夠更重視"},{"start":8612.208,"end":8628.274,"text":"受刑人他的這個健康他的這個醫治權那麼我們可以看到其實監察院提出這個報告就代表說其實矯正署跟監獄對於這個受刑人到底能不能申請救護就醫或是保外就醫這件事情審查的非常嚴格可是我們卻在在這些年來我們就看到陳水扁卻不斷的去踩保外就醫的底線"},{"start":8642.383,"end":8661.496,"text":"他從2015年開始到現在已經保外就醫9年的時間請問部長您對於陳水扁他在9年的時間保外就醫他的健康狀況有沒有改善"},{"start":8662.526,"end":8665.047,"text":"可不可以請你提供他這些年來每三個月都要進行訪視有訪視報告吧"},{"start":8690.886,"end":8692.788,"text":"按照SOP的話應該都有訪視報告麻煩請這個您這邊可以把這涉及到個資的問題你們可以去你們這裡沒有什麼好個資的問題吧這應該就是很重要的一個健康改善的一個狀況"},{"start":8708.66,"end":8710.062,"text":"請問部長您認為臺灣的醫療水準如何?"},{"start":8739.716,"end":8763.201,"text":"那為什麼對於像陳水扁他的醫療狀況是這幾年來我們的醫院都沒有醫生都沒有他好好的醫治都沒有他改善嗎那也是我們有請他提出一個醫療這個評估的報告我想請教就是說當很明顯的這樣的醫療報告他是違反一般的經驗常識"},{"start":8765.69,"end":8781.922,"text":"他基本上從一般客觀上面來看他就像是一般的正常人我相信他的健康狀況絕對是比現在受刑人要好很多那我不知道為什麼在這件事情上面法務部矯正署卻沒有作為"},{"start":8785.969,"end":8806.806,"text":"委員報告有關阿扁的這個醫療他是由高雄長庚還有義大那因為他最近有一些爭議的事情發生所以我們包括又指定一個第三家台南的七美醫院來做一些相關專業的診斷那依據我們"},{"start":8811.249,"end":8837.442,"text":"保化醫治的審核規定這是一種我們要依這個規定來臺中監獄會固定去跟他做訪查另外一種是說我們要尊重醫療專業由這三家醫院醫師的診斷來看準不準與他合準跟委員報告一般的受刑人保化醫治是只要提一家醫院就夠了"},{"start":8840.13,"end":8862.39,"text":"我希望你們可以將醫院所提出來的醫療報告再進行第三人的專家鑑定我懷疑這些醫院所提出的醫療報告有沒有偽造有沒有提出假證明那這部分的話我想這是全台灣的民眾都在看的事情"},{"start":8865.425,"end":8882.192,"text":"剛剛吳思堯委員講得很好我們要反歧視我們要平等我希望在這件事情上面我們應該要做到平等不管他之前的身份是如何所有的人都應該要享受到或者是被"},{"start":8883.297,"end":8900.672,"text":"有這個應該都要享受同樣的這個健康治療權以及同樣的在這個這個他們的獸型應該要被處罰的這些這個這些事情而不應該有這麼明顯的差別待遇我相信在台灣的"},{"start":8906.889,"end":8907.71,"text":"請教證署就應該要依法行政好謝謝"},{"start":8926.957,"end":8945.829,"text":"好 謝謝我們稍後在副委員昆齊詢答之後我們先依照開會前宣告的我們會先處理臨時的提案那之後在本席詢答完畢之後我們休息5分鐘那現在先請副委員昆齊進行詢答部長早總總好"},{"start":8955.616,"end":8965.265,"text":"這個現在打炸打炸越打越炸現在已經從102年的18000件到去年的37900件也從102年的損失財務37億到去年的88.79億"},{"start":8975.626,"end":8984.693,"text":"被害人數從一百零二年的兩萬四千人到去年的五萬九千人這個打仗那種法務部都拿不出相關的辦法來嗎"},{"start":8986.224,"end":9005.313,"text":"跟委員說明在法務部的職長範圍內我們也提出了相關的法律的修正那在執行面我們也要求檢警調大家也要全力以赴來做一個有效的打擊還有偵辦這樣子啦對提高刑度的部分是不是法務部可以直接提出來好不好"},{"start":9006.505,"end":9033.174,"text":"行動的提高還有構成要件的更嚴謹各種新的形態的詐騙我們都有在提出修法的一個建議說車手車手然後就重新其實為什麼可以去當一個車手就這麼高的所得他難道沒有一點基本常識嗎對不對所以基本上這就是共犯之義"},{"start":9034.839,"end":9059.199,"text":"所以這個部分可能也要跟司法院也要溝通一下因為車手一切重慶現在幾乎外衣間現在都是詐騙團詐騙團現在都在外衣間而害台灣害得最慘的就是這群人一般的百姓光我就接過不曉得多少次的詐騙電話我接過很多次"},{"start":9062.799,"end":9081.912,"text":"所以我們其實法務部應該拿出辦法來去跟NCC去跟所有這些單位大家一起來商討一個應對的一個辦法不然我們電話一天到晚接到詐騙電話這很奇怪所以部長不要越打越詐"},{"start":9085.347,"end":9110.681,"text":"這個該加重行動就加重行動讓這個問題盡快至少趨勢是下降趨勢不要每一年逐步都在上升我們講喊打仗喊了多少年所以這個東西請部長好不好好 謝謝另外這個我要特別請教一下昨天台南又出現天坑了昨天出現一個天坑這個"},{"start":9118.104,"end":9145.68,"text":"臺南中西區的武飛街出現一個天坑那這個建設公司叫黃龍建設也是賴清德總統當選跟黃偉哲市長競選總部的提供者在昨天發生這個天坑是不是比照一下新竹縣這個貴部約談這個陽文科縣長還要交保重金交保是不是啊"},{"start":9146.522,"end":9175.96,"text":"法務部要印起來一下給大家看一下一樣是天坑辦的方法有沒有不一樣可以嗎?跟委員說明因為每一個案件他的事實內容如何是那就趕快啟動嘛不要跟我講個案不同如果有涉及到刑事責任的話當然檢察官他們會依法處理好那你既然講刑事責任好那一樣的事情那我再請教一下台南市"},{"start":9179.65,"end":9195.32,"text":"經發局陳凱玲前局長是貪污的累犯慣犯為什麼法務部在2022年這個大選前901大選前這個台南88槍開完以後還有這個當街88槍開完以後10槍10槍開完在一個暴頭"},{"start":9208.578,"end":9233.805,"text":"當天槍擊身亡這麼全國矚目這麼重大的事情這個陳海靈局長本身就是貪污的累犯慣犯竟然在去年3月6號在搜索完樂壇員工員工已經講得很清楚科研講得很清楚陳海靈說是上級指示的在資料不齊備的情況之下還要為這個光電業者來辦"},{"start":9236.397,"end":9262.612,"text":"為什麼3月6號就搜索約談要到今年的2月29號才約談黃偉哲市長這很奇怪的事情這在蘭嶼的縣市科研講完隔天就搜索約談為什麼可以躲過這麼長的總統大選期間隔了將近一年才約談部長是不是能告訴我一下"},{"start":9263.251,"end":9263.511,"text":"這是創新高啊"},{"start":9291.162,"end":9295.066,"text":"為什麼一個科員已經公開講陳凱琳局長告訴他是上級指示一個局長的上級是誰秘書長副市長市長是誰"},{"start":9315.219,"end":9342.575,"text":"一個科研他講的話再加上他上面明明這個東西就是資料不全不能辦的為什麼可以承辦又是光電案這麼敏感的事情然後經過將近一年才約談到的市長局長說上級只是那上級在哪裡這在藍營的縣市我看啦可能隔天就約談不認的話就押人取供了"},{"start":9344.045,"end":9370.038,"text":"所以啊我覺得部長司法要如何讓人信服這是非常重要的事情這是皇后的徵鈔欸現在還有人記得這句話嗎皇后的徵鈔是怎麼樣是值多少錢是值多少代價就可以交易的嗎還是值多少官位就可以交易的嗎你們應該秉公辦到底嘛"},{"start":9371.937,"end":9372.717,"text":"我覺得部長我們要將心比心"},{"start":9397.483,"end":9426.24,"text":"司法是我們社會正義防線的最後一道底線如果司法都不能正義那談什麼國家正義司法沒有正義何有社會的互信山水民調也是比較親綠的嘛你可以看看嘛你google一下可以看一下他公佈出來的是台灣公民聯盟請他去做的民調"},{"start":9428.021,"end":9453.997,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西啊真的是部長您是在位最久的法務部長這個部分當然我也是預祝您能夠連任是最好但是這個部分至少要讓大家了解85%什麼時候可以降下來台灣人民認為政治辦案對檢察官有巨大影響85%的人認為是這樣"},{"start":9457.612,"end":9480.257,"text":"所以部長對這個東西要怎麼樣把它降下來請你的腰桿要挺直千萬不要顏色辦案另外本席再請教一下下次你可以今天你能回答就回答不然就下一次回答對言論免責的部分關於大法官509號解釋令"},{"start":9482.759,"end":9507.598,"text":"但是現在不管是網軍、側翼、特定顏色的媒體還有一般民眾我們可以都區分得出來他就是網軍不能永遠法務部就講他IP設在國外然後就沒有辦法現在網軍已經集體都在國外天天在帶風箱、在洗腦、在做人身攻擊法務部的辦法到底是什麼"},{"start":9508.683,"end":9537.902,"text":"能做什麼不能永遠兩手一攤IP在國外我沒有辦法查再過來特定政治立場特異媒體進電視的事情本期在去年7月19號已經質詢過了NCC有條件通過進電視的時候因為清楚在去年2月28號有條件通過它上架"},{"start":9540.706,"end":9562.825,"text":"6年之內不得移轉陳建平已經出來講了這麼多次本席在去年院會質詢也請教過部長培偉的帳號公然揮錢給這些股東陳耀祥也是財務被告你們還在用他治案他到現在多久了到底你們是辦還是不辦"},{"start":9565.438,"end":9592.705,"text":"一個媒體公器一張執照價值連城這是關係到所有全國的聽樂人但你們辦到哪裡去了陳曉祥都要下台了你們辦到哪裡去了有像辦告報案這麼快嗎因為理由是什麼這關係到2300萬聽樂人的"},{"start":9596.625,"end":9624.071,"text":"資的權利啊今天是可以用這種態度他說大股東已經移轉了早就移轉了本席也告訴你檢舉人已經具名告訴就是在陪委的帳號把錢匯給這些原始股東查到現在查了多久了這麼清楚去查一下這是重大的公共議題這不是一個個案是重大的公共議題"},{"start":9626.462,"end":9648.236,"text":"本席去年請教到現在部長你辦一次給大家看一下嘛好不好我們熱烈期待你可以回答嗎委員的指教我都很仔細的聆聽啦我們能夠做的我一定會盡力的趕快幫忙部長你就最大了怎麼叫你能夠做你當然可以做"},{"start":9650.158,"end":9676.17,"text":"社會矚目案件可以不用辦嗎社會矚目案件本來就是要立刻來處理部長這個時候你不能卸責你是法務界的大家長全國矚目的案子能夠不處理嗎不能說查光查一個資金流程要查兩年三年五年嗎所以部長這個事情請儘快"},{"start":9679.073,"end":9684.277,"text":"請給大家一個真相讓全國國人能夠了解好不好 謝謝部長"},{"start":9702.022,"end":9708.549,"text":"好謝謝那我們現在開始處理臨時提案一案那宣讀後再進行處理請宣讀"},{"start":9710.42,"end":9731.995,"text":"臨時提案一,為強化犯罪偵查效能﹐同時避免基層人力過勞﹐敬請法務部針對檢察官﹐檢察事務官﹐書記官﹐檢察官助理﹐法警之人力配置﹐職長分工與工作負擔﹐進行全面檢討評估﹐並針對增加各類人的必要性與具體規劃啟程﹐人力如何重新調整、配置﹐"},{"start":9732.675,"end":9759.929,"text":"等關鍵問題提出完整檢討規劃報告於一個月內送交司法及法制委員會提案人委員黃國昌、坤祺、謝龍介、吳宗憲、羅志強另4名宣讀完畢請問提案委員有無要補充說明黃委員要補充說明沒有我覺得這個事情已經談滿久的了那相關提案委員最近這段時間社會上面的討論"},{"start":9761.257,"end":9781.143,"text":"那基層檢察官團體他們的發聲那還有很多他們面臨現在的辦案壓力我們當然希望不能你要馬而跑又要馬不吃草那因此針對相關合理的提案包括法律的修正我們基本上都支持但問題是"},{"start":9783.052,"end":9803.01,"text":"在面對有關於人力需求的時候重新的針對目前人力的狀況好好的盤整是不是有勞役不均的狀況那其他的輔助人員是不是有必要一併在什麼樣的程度範圍之內增加那我相信行政部門負責任的"},{"start":9804.741,"end":9823.856,"text":"去盤點現在的狀況提出你們的需求那對於本院的委員接下來因為司法院的立法計畫裡面也很具體的把法院組織法要增加檢察官助理禮拜一的時候在立法計畫裡面報告都已經寫出來了"},{"start":9825.632,"end":9831.783,"text":"至於說其他方案輔助人力的部分現在面臨的狀況到底是怎麼樣請法務部能夠一併的盤證"},{"start":9837.144,"end":9864.366,"text":"請問法務部遭案辦理有沒有意見謝謝各位委員的關心那確實能力的需求我們需要極力的及早補充不過要做一個全盤的盤整給我們多一點時間來做評估因為一個月其實包括要做各種能力他的職長還有他能源的需求如何是不是再長一點時間來做規劃"},{"start":9866.786,"end":9868.427,"text":"法務部提出我們競表同意請問法務部如果我們改為兩個月的話有沒有問題"},{"start":9896.888,"end":9898.509,"text":"本件就照修正後通過"},{"start":9923.803,"end":9924.063,"text":"吳召集委員"},{"start":9940.828,"end":9941.028,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9971.008,"end":9971.508,"text":"司法信任度"},{"start":9986.534,"end":9987.475,"text":"案情的內容我不清楚"},{"start":10011.414,"end":10034.79,"text":"我沒有問案情的內容我單純就是問知不知道有16分鐘的錄音不見了不是不見是中斷了16分鐘的錄音我也是看報導的那我們依據刑事訴訟法100條之一其實已經規定的非常明確應該要全程錄音那另外我們也有一個"},{"start":10036.69,"end":10061.484,"text":"我傾向中他是檢察機關還有司法機關錄音錄影資料保存辦法第三條他也規定的非常的清楚一定要全程錄音那今天當事人他對這個部分有意見結果我們公訴檢察官竟然當庭我們不要說嗆他啦在公訴檢察官竟然講說"},{"start":10063.362,"end":10087.723,"text":"中段16分鐘是在與被告跟辯護律師做法律上定義的溝通無關案件內容不明白被告申請勘驗的意義是什麼請問一下部長對於檢察官自己違反刑事訴訟法以及保存辦法規定讓中間16分鐘沒有錄音公訴檢察官的這個說法你認同嗎"},{"start":10089.775,"end":10111.32,"text":"如果整個訴訟程序在進行當中當然應該要連續錄音錄影如果是中間休息或是做其他的那整個訴訟程序中斷那當然就停止錄音這是如果每個案件檢察官本來就是可以來做整個案件處理的流程所以要分辨他的情形如何"},{"start":10114.147,"end":10141.499,"text":"那今天問題就出在這裡就是說我其實我今天提這個並不是說要找誰的麻煩而是說我希望我們把一些問題把它補足不要讓外界因為一些疏失然後對我們產生很大的誤解今天當事人說在這16分鐘裡面檢察辦的檢察官跟他說上面交代要起訴他講這句話那因為沒有錄這16分鐘就導致現在"},{"start":10144.537,"end":10166.135,"text":"各說各話沒有辦法再查下去所以我認為這種事情非同小可因為這個對檢察界的傷害是很大的當然我在這邊我沒有說那位承辦的檢察官真的會去恐嚇被告我沒有做這樣的結論但是是不是因為有這16分鐘沒有錄音"},{"start":10169.331,"end":10175.177,"text":"讓外界對這件事情現在就是羅生門了是不是說我們將來可以要求"},{"start":10177.065,"end":10202.841,"text":"假官在詢問的時候一定要全程錄音錄影如果要連續如果說有真的有一些狀況需要中斷的話一定務必要載明筆錄中斷的原因是什麼這一次的問題是出在沒有載明筆錄結果後來被發現他的錄影是分成兩個不同的檔案中間有16分鐘不見了"},{"start":10204.242,"end":10211.856,"text":"這16分鐘就發生了這樣的糾紛所以是不是麻煩法務部一定要通告各"},{"start":10214.019,"end":10217.402,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第1會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":10238.699,"end":10247.025,"text":"就我覺得態度上還是不要去跟人家這樣子強硬的頂回去因為自己不對嘛依法我們就要全程錄影嘛"},{"start":10249.452,"end":10269.61,"text":"請問這部長這一塊能不能夠做到?好,謝謝委員的指教,我們願意來重申要求成辦的檢察官或是公訴的檢察官,那你在任何在行使行事訴訟程序的職權的時候,依照規定,如果應該要全程錄音錄影的,就要照做。"},{"start":10270.691,"end":10270.891,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":10292.551,"end":10292.731,"text":"人力部份"},{"start":10314.85,"end":10323.299,"text":"所以說有希望爭取檢察官助理這當然是善意可是你們有沒有想過就是檢視官現在沒有補滿的比例還蠻高的"},{"start":10326.292,"end":10355.263,"text":"跟委員說明一下檢視官他要經過考試考試及格以後還要參加職權訓練所以雖然有缺額但是都是預控在要給這些要考試的要受訓的人用並不是說完全就擺在那裡不用但是他要一段時間那現在立即要處理的就是打詐缺乏的人力所以我們才會用檢察官助理這樣來立即補足何況法官都有法官助理"},{"start":10355.843,"end":10382.842,"text":"檢察官本來就應該也要在法院組織法要規定有檢察官助理所以我們在法制法之前希望就爭取行政院的支持確實行政院也支持我們看一下偵查的四個核心好了其實偵查四個核心就是內情外情開庭跟寫書類這四個我想這四個是重點那請問一下檢察官助理能夠做到這幾個的哪一件事情"},{"start":10384.122,"end":10412.969,"text":"他只是一個輔助檢察官做行政事務的一個工作所以他是有範圍的限制的不像檢事官檢察事務官他是具有司法警察的身份他可以行使的職權是更寬廣那檢察官助理沒有他只是純粹的一個行政事務的協助而已所以當然要求是不同的工作的內容也不同"},{"start":10415.066,"end":10418.51,"text":"這幾年的離職率太高檢視官離職率也高檢察官離職率也高我先從檢視官這邊開始說起我現在說的每一個東西我都不是"},{"start":10435.79,"end":10457.487,"text":"聽說而是我自己經歷過的還有我自己以前的同事私下會跟我講一些其實檢視官的離職率這麼高有一個非常核心的問題是在於說沒有成就感因為檢視官他雖然我們有檢任的職缺有主任檢察事務官但是目前都沒有25年了都沒有派"},{"start":10459.059,"end":10479.291,"text":"那是不是說 我當然知道啦 我也去思考過說 呃 派了之後 會不會造成那個檢認的檢認的那個大增 或者是說在的那個職缺就不走的這些問題 但是除了這個之外 是不是也要考量看要怎麼解決士氣低落的問題"},{"start":10481.752,"end":10496.941,"text":"因為檢視官他確實他的工作範圍非常的他很廣而且能夠幫助檢察官很多但是如果說像現在的狀況他們士氣不高是不是我們有辦法去用其他制度像我昨天在跟那個"},{"start":10498.842,"end":10519.45,"text":"人事長在談的時候我說像日本的副檢察官制度那是不是就是一個鼓勵他們能夠繼續做下去的一個動力或像部長有一個非常好的德政就是讓他們能夠轉任檢察官這我真的是絕對肯定部長這個決策所以說可不可以再有別的鼓勵的方式"},{"start":10520.67,"end":10549.425,"text":"讓他能夠像譬如說副檢察官的這個制度那副檢察官制度當然可以類似像院方的那個司法事務官他做的某些東西他有一定的法律上效果他不會說像現在的檢事官他他可能在沒有辦法取得這個完全的司法官的這個這個權責所以這部分再麻煩也能夠研議一下其實這個都只是為了要讓他們能夠更有更有動力"},{"start":10551.141,"end":10551.961,"text":"剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯剪輯"},{"start":10576.886,"end":10601.367,"text":"我們以前的好同事大家好像是下個月還是下下個月就要離職了其實大家背後的原因都一樣所以說你叫一個醫生已經主治醫師然後又叫他再回去做住院醫師或銀行的經理你最後又叫他回去做櫃檯這樣的制度是不是違反人性他也許解決了A的這個問題但是他創造B的那個問題"},{"start":10603.584,"end":10605.806,"text":"謝謝委員的關心你非常了解我們檢查系統體系能力的狀況"},{"start":10633.524,"end":10633.592,"text":"本集完"},{"start":10633.837,"end":10662.936,"text":"那對於檢察官離職當然每個人他有他的生涯規劃像委員他離職了你就有很多很好的成就那有些人他有另外的規劃我們都予以尊重那至於說二專生三專生這個制度是在我上任之前就已經定案的我只是讓他執行一段時間以後適時的時候來做檢討那也許時間該檢討的時候我們會立即的檢討讓大家有看到自己的遠景"},{"start":10663.837,"end":10683.042,"text":"那至於這個檢視官的部分我們也給他有很多的鼓勵措施包括可以具有律師資格的讓他能夠轉任為檢察官那沒有律師資格我們也需要有一些鼓勵那未來像組長派的派組長組長一段時間有經驗的"},{"start":10686.903,"end":10690.306,"text":"蘇磊的製作上蘇磊一直是檢察官工作量非常大的負荷之一"},{"start":10711.342,"end":10739.541,"text":"起訴的案子現在可能只有10%上下是不是說不起訴處分還是要用力去推廣做檢視因為現在訓練所裡面他沒有交很多檢視的部分那出來分發之後大家也沒有走檢視還是寫的漏漏等但是這個對於檢察官的偵查能量是會有影響的那你花很多時間在起訴書的製作我覺得這是舉雙手贊成但是如果不起訴處分書"},{"start":10741.362,"end":10741.803,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10757.896,"end":10784.797,"text":"有影響之外其實能簡化的就是要麻煩部長要用力推盡量簡化因為現在是檢察官負荷不了一堆檢察官來拜託我說一定要幫忙做那我這個會期接下來幾年我也一定會全力協助檢察官能夠降低一些工作量強化偵查品質但是也是要麻煩部裡面能夠多幫忙最後一張就跟那個部長說明一下我覺得"},{"start":10786.639,"end":10805.76,"text":"這個齁 有時候離開這個檢察官真的不是說隨波逐流或追求金錢權位啦 不是這樣啦所以部長有一次在在這個 我知道部長知道這個新聞我要說明一下啦齁因為我當時的這樣的說法我是在鼓勵留下來的人"},{"start":10806.34,"end":10821.195,"text":"因為大部分人是留下來的少數離開了他就一直在批評現在環境不好怎麼樣那我為了要鼓勵真正留下來願意在衛檢查體系來奮鬥的人我是這樣來鼓勵他們的那他們把它解釋成我是在批評那些離開的人"},{"start":10822.965,"end":10822.985,"text":"委員："},{"start":10845.869,"end":10864.327,"text":"工作環境或是他的所得的報酬跟外界當其他職務不成比例但是我們有使命感我們也靠我們的熱忱來為社會服務我重點是在這裡但是大家把它曲解是我好像是對那些人不滿不是是他們在批評我們我反而告訴我們留下來的人"},{"start":10865.027,"end":10865.207,"text":"謝謝委員給機會說明"},{"start":10890.076,"end":10895.481,"text":"謝謝吳釗緯的詢答接下來依照主席先前的宣告我們先休息5分鐘"},{"start":11343.561,"end":11372.328,"text":"好那我們現在繼續開會請楊委員瓊英進行詢答楊瓊英發言謝謝主席本席要跟部長討論詐騙集團的問題因為我們知道電信詐騙這一些案件跟被告人數已經攀升為所有全國各地檢察署刑案的第一名而且還在增加那部長還好你指示要增加人力指源頭減少案件量"},{"start":11373.648,"end":11396.284,"text":"簡化業務流程多管齊下所以你也成立了合法化的這個檢察官工作負擔研議小組那本期要請教因為檢察官的出走潮年年在發生那要怎麼樣提升辦案的這個效能請教目前小組召開會議的進度如何"},{"start":11397.948,"end":11418.206,"text":"我們提出很多有效的來減輕工作負擔改善工作環境的措施那案件量的源頭如何減少我們也提出一個相關的做法包括像詐欺的案件很多我們怎麼樣把它集中"},{"start":11418.786,"end":11421.089,"text":"本下請教你們除了這一些現在的進程你覺得呢?"},{"start":11436.455,"end":11454.164,"text":"人力的部分除了檢察官助理我們是及時的來補充行政院的支持你們所謂的及時來補充也是大家非常關心的在2023年10月份你用了100個檢察官助理那今年度我們告訴你還是不夠"},{"start":11454.944,"end":11477.103,"text":"所以也聽到了那你預計今年要再增聘150名嗎?這個進度那換句話說要增加這麼多人也就是說的確這個問題是困擾著所有的檢察官以及人民所以換句話說你們規劃分為4年在2022年到2025年的時候呢你要增加的原額增加的原額檢察官機構的原額是600人"},{"start":11479.105,"end":11482.967,"text":"法務部推動的這個法制化的這個檢察官助理的法制化的進度你要怎樣去把它穩住"},{"start":11500.609,"end":11526.005,"text":"跟委員說明一下這是兩回事那600名是4年內當然我給你這個背景給我們是一個原額機制這個100名檢察官助理跟150名檢察官助理這是臨時的對他是閱聘制他不能轉正嘛我已經告訴你啦對所以我們要把它法制化就法院組織法裡面要增訂這個檢察官助理等你這一句話那法制化的這個進度呢"},{"start":11528.036,"end":11549.509,"text":"進度我們已經提出了相關的條文但是因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規所以要加油因為本席不希望說好不容易你培訓了這一些人雖然他是臨編制度但是有了這個能力之後又都跑掉了那這個會傷腦筋我們支持把他法制化那你們加油好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":11550.47,"end":11550.61,"text":"主席"},{"start":11566.745,"end":11585.189,"text":"展現的一部分引信的還沒跑出來所以你們也來了一個新世代的打擊這個炸氣策略行動綱領的1.5版你們共編了17億的經費但是本市覺得蠻奇怪的你們是12億是做設備場地軟硬體的這個設施支出但總整體打炸經費的67.5%"},{"start":11594.712,"end":11610.726,"text":"5億運用於委辦費、臨時人員的籌資等費用,這樣的資源運用,你覺得它可以去精進你的打詐策略跟推動政策的效能出來嗎?"},{"start":11611.707,"end":11626.556,"text":"所以結論就是要問打仗到目前為止是政府很重要而且專案在做但是人民很痛苦看不到成效我希望聽到你們預計要怎麼做讓人民能夠安心"},{"start":11628.179,"end":11650.859,"text":"我們會結合其他相關的部份大家分工不管是在試炸、煮炸或是懲炸部分、堵炸部分我們都要分工跟部份大家協調好法務部負責的都是最後階段的懲炸所以我們提出的經費需求其實在整個"},{"start":11652.66,"end":11680.514,"text":"打擊詐欺的一個經費裡面也是很少部分不管經費的多少我們要看成效所以我給你分析到你佔的比例是怎麼樣我背景不關你講的這麼清楚所以不管你是施詐賭詐還是懲詐的這個部分最後階段都是人民痛苦的所在啊所以呢這個也就是我經常說的一個政府橫向的主橫向的聯繫是最重要的"},{"start":11680.954,"end":11704.391,"text":"最後靠你在末端也沒辦法所以呢我本期非常希望就是說你們應該要橫向的去聯繫才能夠真正有成效所以最後一個議題也就是接避責保護法本期提案那麼我們都很期待喔很期待喔政府的力量有限民間的力量無窮要怎麼樣讓人民能夠安心請教部長"},{"start":11705.131,"end":11725.824,"text":"本席提案的這個接避責保護法草案你是不是我們一起朝這個方向努力去加速推動審議呢?是,我們會努力所以我們也希望能夠盡快有一個成效讓民間跟政府一起合作讓人民可以更放心對不對?是,是,謝謝委員一起加油那接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11734.481,"end":11763.312,"text":"主席：各位委員：部長：還有法務部的所謂的長官：官員有關今天：這個法務部的業務報告當然通常都會比較少琢磨原住民的部分這個原住民族基本法第30條這個是在民國94年2月5號就公布施行施行到現在已經非常非常久了"},{"start":11765.428,"end":11788.016,"text":"這裡面特別提到政府處理原住民族事務制定法律或實施司法與行政救濟程序公正調解仲裁或劣勢程序應尊重原住民族的族裔族裔的部分都非常落實唯一落實的就是族裔通譯的部分都很落實"},{"start":11790.885,"end":11814.203,"text":"傳統習俗文化及價值觀保障其合法權益第二項政府為保障原住民主之司法權益得設置原住民主法院或法庭當然這個都沒有但是專庭的部分我在101年開始擔任立法委員"},{"start":11815.563,"end":11840.683,"text":"所以我那時候就質詢當時的司法院的秘書長就設了專庭就沒有到這個法院是專庭原住民組的專庭如果涉及到原住民組案件就有一個專庭那法務部也配合原住民組案件的專者的檢察官這個也有"},{"start":11841.926,"end":11860.807,"text":"那現在就是實施這麼多年,101年開始實施到現在。這個原住民族案件的專責的檢察官的部分,即待加強。當然我們都知道檢察官都很忙。"},{"start":11862.148,"end":11887.095,"text":"所以相關的訓練相關的對原住民族的傳統習俗文化價值觀的了解這個部分一直做得不夠一直做得不夠這個我之前我不知道部長在不在場啦之前我曾經針對一個案子"},{"start":11888.462,"end":11914.882,"text":"一個老先生八十幾歲兩年前八十幾歲的老先生他從小就在他父母親留下來的土地從小就跟著父母親在那邊耕種的土地而且是原住民保留地因為這個相公所的一個錯誤也把他出租給這個出租給這個這個瑞穗牧場"},{"start":11919.665,"end":11946.958,"text":"打官司訴訟一審判決當然檢察官起訴檢察官起訴一審判決拜書要有期徒刑八十幾歲一看判決不到一個禮拜就過世身體很好啊不到一個禮拜就過世現在上網看還是有啊"},{"start":11948.134,"end":11975.083,"text":"但是他 結果這個判決是錯誤的後來是發現錯誤的是怎麼樣錯誤的他是用山坡地保育利用條例上的7條來去判他有期徒刑山坡地保育利用條例去判他山坡地 結果一查他不是行政院所核定公告的山坡地"},{"start":11976.536,"end":11994.211,"text":"因為山坡地跟山坡地保育區不一樣山坡地跟山坡地保育區他是山坡地保育區他不等於山坡地何況那個又是原住民保留地所以這個就是不了解所以這個部分是這個"},{"start":11996.861,"end":11999.083,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":12025.019,"end":12053.797,"text":"這幾年來五年來好了這五年來對專責案件的原住民主案件的專責檢察官的到底你們有辦什麼樣的一個訓練這個部分請提供可以嗎?謝謝委員的指教那其實我們也有在辦都有在辦但是可以再加強尤其也可以請對原住民文化深入了解的專家學者來跟我們上課我們會再加強"},{"start":12058.158,"end":12083.255,"text":"行事訴訟法95條也是我在一百零一年開始當立法委員我正好在司法法制委員會當初提出修正特別增加了得選任辯護人就是原住民的部分可以得選任辯護人續任被告的時候要選任辯護人現在要去加強的部分是什麼呢"},{"start":12084.605,"end":12111.633,"text":"因為現在你們回去可以統計這5年來統計這5年來因為依刑事適用法95條徇運被告無論是這個警戒可能裡面比較沒有最起碼檢察官的部分很少 為什麼通知來因為警察警方移送過去時間很短"},{"start":12113.267,"end":12129.06,"text":"時間很短要不要申請律師還要等大概都是簽不用這條條文的就沒有辦法落實這個就是怎麼樣去檢討這個過程有的東西其實沒有那麼擠"},{"start":12140.09,"end":12164.898,"text":"這非得要從警方那邊直接就送過去其實可以讓他先回去先把檢察官的這些檢察官也不是那麼容易那個律師也不是那麼容易那麼容易就可以請來還有一些程序所以這個部分一直沒有辦法落實這個部分是不是也去檢討好不好"},{"start":12166.382,"end":12185.171,"text":"謝謝委員指教不過這是法律所要求的一個程序一定要踐行至於能力的不足律師不夠現在的踐行方式就是簽不用現在是這樣拿統計數字就知道了好不好不用 我們了解我們去了解看看好 謝謝"},{"start":12187.349,"end":12187.789,"text":"王世堅委員"},{"start":12214.129,"end":12230.485,"text":"謝謝主席部長其實我頭一次坐著質詢坐下來火氣就減了一半加上部長我們又是舊式另外一半也不見了所以我們今天就好好來討論一個問題"},{"start":12234.141,"end":12258.241,"text":"那你在法務部也7年了大概任期最長的部委首長你可能是最久的就是關於棄保潛逃的這件事情那麼尤其這些重大的犯罪重大不管是經濟犯罪或其他犯罪這是社會最無法接受的事情我就講朱國榮這件案子"},{"start":12259.822,"end":12267.151,"text":"你看去年他判刑十幾年他那麼多條罪那麼社會眾目睽睽之下"},{"start":12269.076,"end":12293.619,"text":"那他竟然繳交了五億元的重寶之後那氣泡潛逃他還不是做那個鐵殼 鐵湯下去的他是搭豪華遊艇出去 天啊然後我們竟然是事後 四天之後才發覺啦所以我要問你的就是說 到底我們的防逃機制"},{"start":12295.785,"end":12323.268,"text":"我們現在國內有八萬個通緝犯然後有八千位潛逃出國剛剛講的那個朱國榮他繳五億元之後輕輕鬆鬆跑掉這五億元變成是他買的贖罪券他繳了這五億以後贖罪券買了以後我們就讓他可以自由進出了如入無人之境"},{"start":12324.749,"end":12345.346,"text":"那我八個字形容我們在這一個部分法務部在如何防逃機制的建立這個部分我八個字形容就是束手無策一籌莫展"},{"start":12347.203,"end":12376.024,"text":"數所無策一籌莫展那稍微可以用的你們又顧忌說啊有聲音啊人權團體在講電子繳還就好你們又說這個人權的問題奇怪啦我們政府這麼多年來都重視加害者的人權那被害者還有我們無辜的民眾們是如何的看法他捲款上百億跑掉"},{"start":12378.132,"end":12399.236,"text":"這個損失的除了直接受害者以外還有間接的我們2300萬國民所以類似這種重大的經濟罪犯潛逃出國的話這不但扼傷了司法威信這更是讓我們全民對司法正義的期待徹底的幻滅徹底的幻滅"},{"start":12407.168,"end":12425.093,"text":"如果我們能夠建立好這個機制那至少給全民看到說司法是有正義的法律要對強者有效社會才有公平正義法律要能夠制裁懲戒這些惡劣者"},{"start":12432.711,"end":12460.074,"text":"社會才有公平正義不是這樣嗎法律不是用來對付生抖小民對付那個手無縛肌之力的弱小者不是這樣欸但是我們在層層的所謂人權吶還有大家的怠惰之下啊跑了就跑了不然要怎麼辦啊竟然過去竟然有說對啦跑了啦吼但是啊這個吼"},{"start":12461.601,"end":12488.512,"text":"人總是會死的嘛他早晚也會老死啦天啊司法的正義要靠這些犯罪者讓天處罰說吃到老老死去那不是廢話嗎那何謂司法正義所以我認為這個部分我希望那個部長第一點"},{"start":12489.793,"end":12505.439,"text":"你看過很多這些防逃機制很可能我們各黨各派都有相對的提案我希望看到部長以你主導之下願版的防逃機制法案是什麼比方說我們對這個所謂有人權爭議的這個電子腳環那我們的態度是什麼"},{"start":12515.02,"end":12541.89,"text":"至少加了這個他沒辦法去上豪華遊艇吧不是嗎那這個部分我希望看到說院版的法案是什麼對策是什麼第二點對這麼多還可能在審理中或者已經判決的極可能有潛逃出國疑慮者"},{"start":12543.223,"end":12561.456,"text":"那是不是你們要想方設法趕快有一個積極的做法對應因為法務部以你們的權責你們可以指揮全國的檢調全國的警察甚至可以要求海巡來配合來幫忙"},{"start":12562.797,"end":12586.514,"text":"天吶我看那天你們可能這種通令根本不夠也疏忽掉我看朱國榮搭著豪華潛艇出國的時候海星看到他也不知道搞不好還跟他打招呼勒因為他不是中共的黑船嗎不是嗎所以這是這個事情已經到了荒唐的地步啦荒唐的地步所以我再一次的強調"},{"start":12588.376,"end":12593.658,"text":"不能讓這些重大尤其是經濟犯罪者讓他買了贖罪券就跑了然後對那法務部還有一個聲音還有一個聲音說"},{"start":12603.691,"end":12626.189,"text":"這個反正他繳了嘛 繳了無益了齁 這個已經把他懲罰了本來啊 我們民間一直有一個呼聲說 希望來推動有一個棄保潛逃罪加重他的刑責 結果會反對的竟然我聽到的是法務部部份的聲音說 一罪不兩罰還都已經把他沒收保金了 還罰什麼罰呢 那就我講的嘛"},{"start":12629.847,"end":12650.157,"text":"那這些保金不管多重金額多大那就是買熟罪券的觀念喔天啊那這個司法正義在哪裡所以部長我希望這一點你能夠積極的有作為有回應那我也拜託主席不好意思是不是幾十秒給部長回應一下好嗎"},{"start":12652.681,"end":12673.875,"text":"委員關心的這個議題我們其實很早不管在法制面或是在執行面都有採取一些相關的措施法制面棄保潛逃罪我們在108年就提出了一個草案出來了108年就已經送到行政院去審查那執行面在"},{"start":12674.676,"end":12697.982,"text":"法律還沒有有效的遏止之前我們也是有電子監控這樣的措施那朱國隆的個案因為是在法院審理中嘛這個當然我們可以建議法院應該要多採取如果交保的話多採取電子監控因為他原來是只有報導而已啦報導是不夠的能夠再施以電子監控那是更好"},{"start":12698.382,"end":12725.239,"text":"那如果在偵查中我們對要嚴懲這種幫派組織犯罪或是重大的金融犯罪一定要嚴格的來收證來申請計壓萬一申請計壓法官不准的話我們就要施以電子監控這樣的防範的措施這個我們都會考慮不過委員的建議我們還會再深入的再來加強謝謝我希望重建我們的司法威信謝謝"},{"start":12727.352,"end":12733.318,"text":"陳庭菲委員黃珊珊委員氣保潛逃罪108年送過來,行政院有沒有送到立法院?"},{"start":12752.416,"end":12761.767,"text":"108現在是113所以行政院是不想提是嗎沒有已經很密集的開會了所以開了五年都還不知道來審議五年了"},{"start":12765.765,"end":12791.797,"text":"開了5年的會 棄保險逃 法務部很認真 行政院不提就對了是嗎 現在今天的結論是這句話不是 我們說該做的事情我們已經做了所以民眾黨團已經幫你提了 謝謝這個會期 我想司法法制委員會這邊各個黨團應該都支持所以這個會期 你們會不會像行政院一樣繼續待多到5年後再來審"},{"start":12793.988,"end":12815.227,"text":"委員會這邊如果排審的話當然我們會樂意的來說明那行政院為什麼沒有送出來他要徵詢各方的意見在考量所以徵詢各方的意見就發生剛剛講的出國容重點在於我想我們大家都念法律因為氣保潛逃沒有"},{"start":12817.011,"end":12833.061,"text":"因為這樣而接受到進一步的處罰所以大家都起跑潛逃第二個他回來執行之後他也不會因為這樣子減少他在假釋門檻或者是他接下去的刑罰執行對吧所以無所謂啊跑了"},{"start":12834.475,"end":12848.944,"text":"損失點錢再抓回來還是一樣日子一樣過部長這叫做司法公信力這個的損失不是一兩個潛逃的人可以扳回來的你同意嗎"},{"start":12849.912,"end":12850.292,"text":"我同意"},{"start":12872.782,"end":12891.202,"text":"我們內部的討論會議當然為什麼問題出在哪裡原因為何什麼樣的狀況下對於氣保潛逃有五年都沒有辦法有進展這是請你給我一個回報說明沒關係我要知道你們開了幾次會給我大事記就好了"},{"start":12892.889,"end":12900.156,"text":"臺灣已經成為詐騙執照我相信這次對我們來說都是非常難堪的然後打詐剛剛部長講了很多我們要增加人力我們要給他很多的設備或者是給他很多的配置但是"},{"start":12915.851,"end":12916.612,"text":"我同意就是要全面性的來防堵啦"},{"start":12934.753,"end":12935.093,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12956.76,"end":12982.716,"text":"是有發現這樣的案例所以虛擬貨幣在台灣有一些相關的算是有經過我們相關金管會這邊管理的業者他們其實一直希望建立一個所謂的反詐平台因為他們跟銀行一樣他們有賬戶他們有異常交易他們也想通報可是部長你知道他們現在跟刑事局跟調查局其實都有很好的合作但是"},{"start":12983.803,"end":12984.904,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13006.221,"end":13032.142,"text":"他們現在的方式是用傳真機傳真機我們好像很久已經沒有用到傳真機了部長我現在就有一個問題詐欺犯能不能抓到是一個狀況其實民眾更關心的是我被詐騙的金額能不能要回來抓到他然後他兩手一攤一毛錢也沒有強制執行也不可能有錢錢抓不回來這個詐騙"},{"start":13034.676,"end":13040.203,"text":"就算抓到了那些車手就算抓到了人頭賬戶還是沒有意義你同意吧"},{"start":13041.018,"end":13067.6,"text":"我同意我們盡力的來追回這些賬款這個虛擬資產平台他們其實很想建立一個跟警方檢方調查局甚至派出所溝通的平台但目前為止他們都要一對一的去做聯絡昨天我有跟蘇巴部長唐鳳部長討論其實政府是不是來可以來協助成立這樣的一個通報平台"},{"start":13068.32,"end":13090.445,"text":"因為我剛剛講這個聯防平台包括165我們現在可能也有跟他有連線但是一樣要一對一而且要透過傳證機這個時代還用傳證機的單位不多啦如果有相關的溝通平台的話可能可以加速所謂的通報加速所謂虛擬資產業者他們凍結這個異常帳戶如果我們能夠把錢凍下來我們就可以"},{"start":13097.981,"end":13098.161,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":13122.07,"end":13146.315,"text":"將來人力的配置要怎麼樣去管制所以我認為法務部在這上面如果我們一直在後端增加檢察官的人力增加這些相關的後端的處理不如協助他們在前端包括調查局刑事局這些單位他們跟這個虛擬資產平台先做一個通報機制銀行現在應該有但是銀行"},{"start":13147.015,"end":13169.66,"text":"通報完了還是到我們的165這邊他還是一個比較傳統的路徑要花很多時間然後再去凍結的時候可能已經來不及了所以部長對於這個部分的是不是可以請你跟速發部來合作研議一下這些業者也願意來配合怎麼樣把錢能夠及早凍結我想才是打詐讓詐騙集團沒有辦法那麼快的得逞"},{"start":13174.079,"end":13174.199,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":13194.506,"end":13209.332,"text":"這三個東西他們想做但是可能需要公部門的協助謝謝委員的建議我們很樂意跟速發部甚至內政部大家一起來內政部所屬的刑事警察局還有我們服務部的調查局"},{"start":13210.232,"end":13235.886,"text":"甚至金管會也可以拉進來這個是為人民好的現在的平台目前為止都是他們個別在處理另外就是虛擬資產業者在台灣目前是登記有25家合法但是有更多的是在境外他們在台灣沒有相關的工具但是他們也非常願意協助這個部分應該是說我們把這些有實際國人在使用的虛擬資產平台然後發生過詐騙的"},{"start":13239.192,"end":13241.594,"text":"所以部長拜託我希望這個狀況是不是可以在一個月左右給我一個初步的你們"},{"start":13266.169,"end":13266.209,"text":"謝依鳳委員"},{"start":13290.497,"end":13316.672,"text":"張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員陳培宇委員接下來請審法會委員發言"},{"start":13322.15,"end":13335.041,"text":"好,謝謝主席。部長午安。委員好。首先,我先感謝我們法務部檢察司這次幫忙協調有關這次律師的基礎訓,因為報名名額的關係,我們名額開810個,今年大概有將近1000人報名。"},{"start":13348.203,"end":13370.702,"text":"那所以因為這個這個你一年如果說沒這個基礎訓沒有辦法再延一年就對對每一個這個律師都來這個新科律師來講都是生涯規劃的一個很大的影響啊那我們感謝這個那個檢查檢查室跟這個全聯會齁這是積極協調會確認是不是我們確認在第6提示會加開原額是加開原額但是現在"},{"start":13377.387,"end":13405.489,"text":"我看到的就只有原則啦原則會加開原應該會在今年都會讓他們完訓但是具體的場地時間規劃通知都還沒有收到啦齁那這個部分是不是請我們能夠盡快的作業讓這個確保考生這些考生我們要給他們公平的對待跟這個善盡告知的義務希望說是不是能夠我們能夠盡快的把這個"},{"start":13408.252,"end":13423.471,"text":"這個相關的安排確定的安排能夠來統治這些受訓者好謝謝委員我們一定會全力來配合然後讓他們想要在今年度能夠受完律師訓了都能夠來完成對這個是比較"},{"start":13425.629,"end":13440.146,"text":"再來就是說明年度是不是不要再發生類似的情況我們在這個預算的編列上面在這個計畫上面我們看起來都是比較保守不過跟委員說明這個是全立會他們是"},{"start":13441.408,"end":13441.428,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":13468.223,"end":13494.669,"text":"接下來我看今天早上每一個委員質詢大概最關心的都是這個詐騙案有關這個詐騙案相關的辦理為什麼這麼多委員會關心這個這顯然在台灣這個民意大家都已經認為說台灣的這個詐騙案件已經是相當的嚴重了包括每一個人的個人生活經驗裡面都多少會收到"},{"start":13496.129,"end":13522.277,"text":"大概我們包括我們這個剛剛所講的這些檢察檢察官助理這些等等這些相關的人士編織這些部長大概早上都已經做了說明我這邊就不再重複詢問了問題是這個部長是不是能夠讓大家知道瞭解說目前像我知道說目前這些這個我們的這個這些詐騙案件這個還有包括這些這個"},{"start":13526.363,"end":13544.567,"text":"暴力妨礙自由等等這些相關的案件的不起訴處分的這個比率好像相當的高將近到七成不起訴處分那這個在實務上面他到底最大的困難是在哪裡"},{"start":13546.18,"end":13566.85,"text":"當然就是證據上的問題啦那很多詐騙他的手腕也不斷的翻新啦那有些被告的辯解那有時候我們沒辦法去找到證據來給我這個部分就是一般民眾大家所不解的地方"},{"start":13568.376,"end":13579.585,"text":"人家說道高一尺 謀高一丈但是我們我們是應該要謀高一尺 道高一丈這些手法不斷的翻新沒有錯每次都有新型態的尤其是這個在現在的這個通訊詐騙上面"},{"start":13585.114,"end":13612.943,"text":"當然它會有一些新的形態的詐騙我們每針對一個形態我們去破解之後它會有一些新的形態那最重要就是這個現在因為它又牽涉到第三方支付又牽涉到虛擬貨幣又牽涉到這些通訊平台這些網路的這些詐欺這些部分上面在舉證上面目前我們應該是要我們不能說因為形態新的所以我們雙手一攤說這個現在實在犯罪形態"},{"start":13613.883,"end":13643.583,"text":"更新我們政府沒有辦法很抱歉大家自己小心這個不管怎麼樣也不是這個態度吧是所以我們這個這個這個部分我們是不是能夠在包括說現在我們跟這些相關的這些通訊平台上面有什麼樣司法上面我們有跟他們什麼樣的協議那有哪一些平台是能有跟我們這個我們國家司法單位司法跟警察單位合作有哪一些平台是沒有到目前為止沒有辦法取得他們的協助的"},{"start":13644.563,"end":13646.004,"text":"我看到這個111年行政院有公布這個詐騙目前"},{"start":13670.549,"end":13696.497,"text":"這個前三名大概第一名是這個假網路拍賣這個是第一名第二名是投資詐欺第三名是解除分期付款的詐欺112年有沒有統計我們現在新型態的這個我們現在112年已經過了過去的這一年我們的這個相關的這些這些詐騙案件他的類型他的成長案件數的成長我們有沒有做統計"},{"start":13697.517,"end":13698.378,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們調查局所處理的大概是比較"},{"start":13721.499,"end":13746.316,"text":"比較重大型的因為我們人力的關係所以有一些比較像倒賣帳戶或者是這種車手的案件我們比較少處理這個不用再詳細講就是說我希望能夠看到像這個111年入行政院所發布這樣子的統計就是我們的相關不同類型的詐欺案件它的成長"},{"start":13747.096,"end":13748.477,"text":"我們以調查局處理的案件為例就是我們從111年的6月到112年的6月"},{"start":13763.809,"end":13787.319,"text":"那我們處理的最多的應該是投資型的詐欺案件這差不多佔了75%投資型的那另外還有這個戀愛型的詐騙案件他大概是佔10%那剩下的還有一些是假冒公務單位檢察官或法官的這種詐騙案件你是不是會後能夠做一個統計數字給我"},{"start":13793.53,"end":13817.502,"text":"我想這個還是在目前這個包括這個剛剛也很多委員提到這個相關詐欺這些所得金額的這些查扣的部分我們現在目前這個在查扣動作上面都有一些問題這個是一般大概受害者最詬病的地方這部分希望我們這個法務部能夠跟這個"},{"start":13818.763,"end":13839.873,"text":"司法院這邊齁大家能夠在這方面齁能夠做一些協調啦齁能夠阻斷這樣子他們的這個能夠讓這個查扣的金額能夠這個時間能夠加快啦好不好那另外齁這還在一點時間我這個這個請問一下目前這個有關齁我們現在立法院大家在談這個"},{"start":13842.472,"end":13867.784,"text":"國會調查權的問題這部分我看到我們法務部的態度當然是說尊重立法院我們自己對立法院的尊重但是事實上這個有關於牽涉到偵查不公開的部分司法進行中的案件的這些部分我想這個跟我們法務部有極大的相關過去大法官也做了"},{"start":13868.664,"end":13886.238,"text":"三次的解釋有關於這個調查權跟這個我們現在正正辦中的司法案件他的相關的這些這些憲法的解釋那這部分部長我是希望部長你除了尊重立法院以外齁因為這個東西你不要立法院立出來之後然後大家再來爭執說你這個調查權跟"},{"start":13888.956,"end":13889.156,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13911.238,"end":13923.226,"text":"立法院的調查權是根據立法院的職權刑事法還有相關的規定所訂定的我們當然要尊重但是涉及到如果是還在偵查中的案件"},{"start":13923.826,"end":13946.827,"text":"那大法官的解釋也有說要保障檢察機關的獨立行使職權就是不能夠來要求我們在偵查中案件的一個提供相關的證據這個是應該是很清楚的這個部分在我希望說在未來因為我想在未來這段時間這個議題他還會在立法院繼續進行希望說這個我們法務部能夠"},{"start":13947.808,"end":13969.373,"text":"就這個部分能夠表達我們這個實務上面以及這個包括這個過去大法官所做的解釋對於我們這個偵查權的保障這個部分我希望能夠法務部能夠在這個過程中能夠表示態度不要等到立法完成之後大家再來國會再跟這個我們檢調單位再有這樣子的相關的爭執好不好好謝謝"},{"start":13974.813,"end":13979.935,"text":"主席有請部長法務部有沒有自己的統計全台有多少通緝犯還沒有落網逍遙法外的"},{"start":14003.926,"end":14024.464,"text":"我們有我們的統計目前總共是5.5萬目前通緝中的包括偵查中的有2.9萬多然後審判中的是9千多執行中的是1.7萬所以加起來5.5萬那潛逃出境大概多少人"},{"start":14029.747,"end":14030.067,"text":"請證書統計說18萬為什麼會有落差"},{"start":14042.163,"end":14068.157,"text":"8萬他可能是累計的有些他已經棄貨的你講的是2019年到2023年嘛對不對我講的數字是目前在統計中法務部的統計中目前統計中那累計的話當然那是另外一個就是說你抓到了又放掉了才會有8萬多這樣的一個數字我也許這個行政他真的在外面多少真的在外面是5萬8還是8萬"},{"start":14069.798,"end":14072.781,"text":"警政署統計說潛逃出境大概8000人,為什麼法務部沒有統計呢?沒有做境管"},{"start":14091.072,"end":14104.682,"text":"由裕蘭委員去年10月曾向法務部司法院索取資料那當時就說沒有統計潛逃出境的部分嘛 對不對可是我覺得在犯罪防治當中這一點不重要嗎"},{"start":14106.545,"end":14107.166,"text":"檢討出境人數的掌握"},{"start":14129.195,"end":14129.876,"text":"警政署統計基礎在哪裡?"},{"start":14153.473,"end":14161.898,"text":"那要請教他們我覺得你們還是要連線一下我想請教一下就是我國目前矯正機關收容人數大概是多少?"},{"start":14161.898,"end":14177.807,"text":"最多可以收容多少人?目前我們知道是我看到數據是五萬五千人五萬五千四百二十六人那這就有一點奇怪了你現在跟我講說五點五萬的氣泡潛逃 對不對?"},{"start":14181.363,"end":14206.263,"text":"通緝中5.5萬通緝中那你現在監獄就只有5.5萬的容量啊容量應該不止啊我們現在整個容量收容多少人比現行收容的好我們的容量還更大更大所以如果說把這個5.5萬的你講說通緝犯都抓到基本上還是收容的那個空間還是夠"},{"start":14208.615,"end":14229.288,"text":"通緝犯抓到以後抓到以後如果在偵查中跟委員說明如果偵查中檢察官認為問清楚了根本不需要羈押就不會送到矯正署去了審判中法官也是一樣通緝來了這個人說明清楚了也可能交保也可能賜回所以不一定要全部都要送到對我意思說如果扣掉這些你覺得還是夠就對了"},{"start":14231.278,"end":14240.637,"text":"收容矯正機關有分兩個 一個是看守所是在﹖我不管看守所或其他矯正機關 基本上你覺得現在空間是夠的就算全部通緝犯都抓到"},{"start":14242.306,"end":14261.715,"text":"沒有問題啦 因為還有法官檢察官他可能當場就釋放他就會交保或是施以電子監控等等不一定全部都會送到矯正機關來那部長我想請教一個問題就是說因為其實我也要感謝啦因為我看到七寶潛逃之後已經你們列在那個立法計畫裡面嘛 對不對"},{"start":14263.015,"end":14269.569,"text":"那我想請問你要怎麼樣去來推動這個棄保檢討罪重點是什麼重要在哪裡為什麼這個這個立法計畫為什麼重要"},{"start":14274.004,"end":14300.417,"text":"當然我們也順應民意的要求事實上我們很早就有體會到說這個是確實對於拒保的這些被告或是嫌疑犯他是有出庭的義務否則的話整個案件沒辦法繼續的進行下去那我們要用什麼樣的方式當然除了刑事法之外也有其他的方式大家能夠共同來確保整個刑事訴訟程序能夠順利的進行"},{"start":14303.086,"end":14323.207,"text":"官方部長說其實這個立法非常重要那這也是我這個會期我是第一個參議要推動棄保潛逃罪的那我也看到那個過去長期推動這個法案的黃國昌委員他也領先民眾黨也提出了法案所以目前看起來在野黨已經有共識連法務部基本上都是贊成這個立法"},{"start":14324.068,"end":14349.764,"text":"那我想請問一下為什麼從2019年9月提報行政院審查之後目前召開11次會議審查拖了4年多的時間那現在目前到底程序是卡在哪裡那因為行政院還繼續的來看還沒通過行政院院會是嗎當然如果要由行政院來提那當然要經過院會才會送到大院來"},{"start":14351.691,"end":14371.466,"text":"你覺得有什麼送過來的方式比較好什麼送比較好都可以啊委員如果急著要提案的話那我就問因為已經在行政院審查的會議當中其實拖了4年時間那到底是卡在什麼地方有什麼反對的論點是什麼那各界有不同的看法"},{"start":14373.606,"end":14401.464,"text":"另外我想請教您因為我看到羅秉成政委回應七寶潛逃罪的修法他說被告犯罪重刑期很高根本不在乎七寶潛逃罪二到三年刑期所以對效力跟效果存疑我想請問你認同這個說法嗎這也是考量之一可是基本上接下來你考量了羅秉成政委的說法之後我們的七寶潛逃罪你有什麼樣"},{"start":14402.642,"end":14425.673,"text":"的一個方向會說你覺得可以可以把它意見考量進去的很多方法啦你說把它提高刑度也許大家覺得喔這個很好但是要真正的落實你刑度高法官要判得下去然後刑法也不是唯一的方法而已每一個都是要用重刑來處罰"},{"start":14427.014,"end":14441.602,"text":"那是不是能達到效果所以法案上比例原則也要考慮進去嘛我的看法很簡單啦就是說基本上你今天犯的本刑跟棄保潛逃基本上他那個侵犯的法義是不相同的嘛 對不對"},{"start":14442.819,"end":14458.448,"text":"對 因為每個他可能涉及的個案不一樣所以因此基本上我覺得本來就是應該要可以所謂的棄保潛逃罪這個問題基本上我跟法務部是看法是相同但是我現在要問你另外一個問題因為大家這一段時間大家都很關心詐欺的問題 對不對那我想請問就是說"},{"start":14463.231,"end":14483.474,"text":"目前根據最高檢察署的統計2018年迄今詐欺犯是高居各地檢察署收件案件之首是吧應該是那平均累計已經到75萬件那我想請問你平均的年增率達多少"},{"start":14484.612,"end":14504.868,"text":"我這邊數據是28啦那我想請問齁就詐騙橫行這個創新高我們財損也不斷的創新高齁可是目前我們是判決有罪定業的詐欺犯齁這個大概是7萬人嘛 對不對那重刑3年以上大概是多少人?355人 對不對呃我"},{"start":14509.269,"end":14522.347,"text":"也曾經回答過委員的質詢我也認為說確實判決的刑度是偏低的啦所以也請你這個一併考慮好不好在修法上一併考慮因為說真的這個詐騙已經變國恥了啦"},{"start":14524.929,"end":14542.895,"text":"實際上對詐騙已經是有點忍無可忍另外其實我也看到另外一個狀況就是說基本上除了詐欺的態樣也有開始有一點點不太一樣因為現在詐欺之外也開始出現了很多對民眾肆虐控制拘禁妨礙自由的這些"},{"start":14543.775,"end":14543.935,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":14563.225,"end":14590.038,"text":"這個是統計應該是防害自由的案件但是是不是跟詐欺有關聯當然這是不同的議題但是我要講的是說確實我們在看到許多詐欺包括之前包括像那個青埔淡水對不對都發生而且很嚴重後來造成就是有民眾死亡那像這種所謂的詐欺的形態伴隨拘禁跟防害自由的形態確實有增加嗎還是在你看起來沒有增加"},{"start":14590.994,"end":14612.294,"text":"是有發生啦那有沒有統計大概的狀況這伴隨著太陽我這邊其實給我們部長一個建議就是說很多的一些犯罪的太陽跟他的形式跟數字我覺得可能要與時俱進啦就是說能夠掌握得更好更精確的話也有助於犯罪增防所以以上"},{"start":14612.754,"end":14612.854,"text":"感謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":14641.254,"end":14658.89,"text":"本日所有的委員都已經發言完畢 詢答結束那委員質詢的時候 有要求提供的相關資料或是以書面答覆的部分 那請能夠盡速交給各個委員還有本會"},{"start":14660.475,"end":14687.77,"text":"那本次的會議到此結束那另外對了再麻煩法務部麻煩部長就是本席剛剛發言的那幾件事情就麻煩能夠幫我們弄清楚一下那我這邊一定會持續的追因為這幾個點我個人認為對檢方的現在以及將來的發展都有很大的關聯性那請法務部這邊一定要幫忙處理這一塊"},{"start":14688.59,"end":14691.665,"text":"好 謝謝那今天的會議就到此結束現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}