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很樂意把我們的意識政策說明得很清楚那天大家朝委也都簽了字也是對你信用跟承諾的投了一票請趕快落實好不好今天一樣我為什麼提這個當頭呢"},{"start":141.889,"end":169.561,"text":"這是草野和諧的一個榜樣啊一樣今天談這個一千億我們也希望是非常理性、務實、科學來討論好不好我先跟你談一個很重要的點為什麼今天又要追加這一千億你猜你追了三次啊三千億嘛欸 漲價已經漲了五次啊那為什麼這變成一個無理動動越報越大桿啊一桿五兩兩那一定有問題嘛所以不是只有報補的問題應該去想到底出什麼問題好 其中有一個大的黑洞"},{"start":170.373,"end":197.777,"text":"就是賴清德賴總統前幾天講的因為在買綠電的過程裡面產生了一堆的弊案對不對所以賴清德總統怎麼說他第一天就說喊話叫陳啟毅臺院綠能臺院的董事長前董事長陳啟毅趕快到案這是一個嘛第二順重要喔他說啊整個行政體系要趕快去檢討出了什麼問題要去破洞補起來嘛對不對"},{"start":198.646,"end":225.107,"text":"好那我問你我現在用陳啟毅這個事情來做比擬這是賴清德賴總統講的第一趕快把人抓回來啊第二趕快把相關的錢補回來啊院長你知道這個錢有多少嗎人趕快抓回來不是只有總統喊話而已人要趕快抓回來檢警調要趕快動員對不對第一這個錢有多少大家看他虧空了台元11億喔並重要的"},{"start":226.375,"end":254.117,"text":"請部長跟院長要注意這個事情他除了收賄七情滿意我啊右下角這個大家看一下他去簽了一堆不平等的條約喔未來我們政府啊台元還要負擔多少的這個賠償最少超過一百四十億今天我們在談要補貼一千億因為台元利能出狀況可能被廠商要求償一百四十億為什麼一百四十億這麼多因為他沒有經過董事會的"},{"start":255.37,"end":278.141,"text":"同意他自己亂簽這簽了一個非常不平等的他說你工程費付了多少我給你十倍的這個賠償現在台泥在我家裡的魚店那個地方你本來是魚店共生阿現在魚死掉了店沒有生喔還放位在那邊喔現在人家酋長多少14億工程費工程款的十倍"},{"start":279.878,"end":305.956,"text":"所以院長趕快去追這個人趕快抓回來該有的這個錢趕快去補回來虧損趕快補回來第二個可能面臨虧損的問題趕快去解決好不好好的三件事情跟我們報告第一個我希望陳啟毓能盡快的到案敢做敢當面對司法面對國人財富網費國人過去對他也是相當多的支持應該要敢做敢當面對司法我們覺得非常痛心所以除了總統喊話你也喊話嘛"},{"start":307.598,"end":323.48,"text":"我們上次在院會我就說過了第一個關於綠能犯罪的事情我們全面已經在追查了我已經幾次要求法務部、台高檢等等全力在追查我們也設定了時程跟目標第三個關於台研綠能所"},{"start":324.758,"end":351.068,"text":"未來的這些狀況我們希望透過法律能夠救濟盡量減少各種的損失這也是維護台鹽綠能台鹽公司的一個主要的要做法也要向國人有所交代所以我想這個案子我已經也數次要求法務部能夠儘快的找到當事人來進行說明院長我們要連綠風琴我們要努力共同努力那現在不是只有台鹽綠能我再給你看一個這是上禮拜那個案子剛剛才起訴的"},{"start":354.745,"end":376.171,"text":"在中華的竹塘跟雲林的二輪你看他光是收了民貸收了1861萬結果他賺了台電多少錢4億4千萬就是巨額的這個收入我們再看下一個案子立揚立揚立揚就是台南的88槍"},{"start":378.484,"end":403.592,"text":"起訴書裡面檢察官直接跟你講要從台電不法走德要賺多少?91億另外右邊這個聯合再生他就套利了2.63會很恐怖的講的都是越來越平對不對?我們現在談1000億結果你看這個四五個案子每個都是幾億幾億這樣在搬錢院長我提醒你最後一個圖來我們看一下這個是"},{"start":409.131,"end":429.769,"text":"這個蔡英文總統連任的時候你看旁邊站的人這叫全國力量產業貨源會是不是已經變成一個黑金幣安的貨源大會你看左邊陳啟毅中間這個人把力量集團的股省費這是88槍的在這邊聯合再生我剛講的這個聯合再生這個案子這個監察已經糾正了這個案子監察已經糾正了"},{"start":432.15,"end":451.717,"text":"在右邊,太陽集團的蔡中榮他們兄弟這再次抬眼令人也是有角色的所以從總統一直到院長到部長都是相當嚴辦對不對我們來這張圖每個人不要因為他去支持了誰做了後援會要查辦到底而且盡快好不好當然"},{"start":453.776,"end":478.516,"text":"報告委員我想在院長的處理之下事實上我們經濟部跟法務部還有農業部我們都現在在建立一個平台防止這些弊病防止這些蟑螂可以再次肆虐光電這個領域所以過去的剛才您所"},{"start":479.456,"end":506.037,"text":"指責的這幾個部分都列為我們未來改進的一個參考我是肯定的經濟部最近提了三大措施包括要跟人民溝通包括透明化這個我是肯定的不過正本青年是什麼因為就裡面的利潤太多嘛所以它出現了一些利潤的蟑螂嘛所以第一個我是肯定可是我們等一下來談什麼要去釜底抽薪這個問題第二個更重要的既然要辦 院長既然要辦陳其宇人家趕快抓到"},{"start":507.861,"end":514.106,"text":"三個原則第一個有爭議的地太小的地不要開發就不要開發第二個讓業者去面對這些地方的人士不合理公權利權利介入"},{"start":530.302,"end":554.995,"text":"第三個,農民的權利應該要適度的再提升保障農民的利益讓他不會受地方人士這樣來左右我們設定三個原則,全力執行好,院長這個宣示很好可是一定要落實,收到要做到已經開始在做了已經在做,那更重要的是什麼?日本青年,你們想過為什麼那麼多人冒著生命危險啊要抓去關?他為什麼這個弊案連環報?就是因為裡面利潤太高嘛利潤太高的重點在哪裡?來,我們看這個賺過電價嘛"},{"start":558.922,"end":572.043,"text":"短過電價你本來在風電這一塊你給了他利潤後來這個風電這一塊已經退場囉那剛才說的都是太陽能光電太陽能光電到現在這個短過電價都還沒有還沒有退場我跟大家講一下這個短過電價為什麼出問題第一個"},{"start":574.609,"end":601.808,"text":"簽的時候大家協調的時候用協調的所以價格本來就高嘛第二個一邊20年嘛所以一堆綠色蟑螂就跑進去啊黑道啊什麼民代全部都跑進去啊我們看一下事實上各國沒有錯各國在推再生能源的時候都是用短過制度可是短過制度一段時間市場成熟完之後他就會退場了嘛我剛講的我們的風電也退場了太陽能到現在沒退場了看一下德國的案子德國是2000年實施再生能源法那時候開始用短過制度"},{"start":602.768,"end":618.898,"text":"後來2017年它就變成競標了日本是2012年後來2017年也變成是競標了所以今天本席明確的要求好好趕快檢討短過制度它有幾個好處喔第一個避免過高的這個利益"},{"start":620.472,"end":632.706,"text":"他不會導致這個歷練這個蟑螂橫行必斷重生這是第一個好處第二個他會落實真正的公開透明因為公開競標嘛對不對所以就是一個公平競爭第三個也很重要我們要談一千億"},{"start":633.871,"end":660.632,"text":"你只要整過制度特別是光電這一塊改成競標台電的虧損就會降下來你會買到合格的價格這已經在朝這個方向進行往這個方向嘛院長今天跟部長你們很明確跟我講你們往這個方向落日的方向在走多久以內可以達成落日因為你風電已經落日了嘛那你光電造成這麼多弊案又導致台電的虧損趕快給一個時間點好不好例如說可能兩個禮拜好不好兩個禮拜提出什麼時候落日可以嗎"},{"start":661.257,"end":669.314,"text":"我們回部裡面的討論然後儘快給委員一個答案要展現你們的魄力"},{"start":670.8,"end":696.11,"text":"我剛跟你講德國的案例日本的案例啊我們豐電你有這樣的案例啊快一點好不好委員現在因為有的已經在進行中的那有的還沒有進行所以我們還是要跟大家來討論怎麼樣很順利的能夠有兩個禮拜給我你們的檢討報告那檢討報告裡面有一個很重要你方向剛剛院長講的你是網要費落日條款這個方向去做嘛對不對時間點把它訂出來越快越好"},{"start":696.75,"end":723.824,"text":"好不好 就像是你一邊在查閉的時候 你要正本清點就知道他利潤在什麼地方嘛你把它廢掉那些綠色蟑螂就清掉啦 就進不來了啦好不好報告委員在契約當中的我們要合法的進行但是不能再出現任何的狀況那麼有新的發展一定朝未來是降低成本的方式來進行因為這個也是等夠電價當初設計以及大家共同的一個原則將來一定往更合理的電價計算成本這個方向去走"},{"start":724.404,"end":748.078,"text":"還有一個案子也非常重要就是最近我們要成立一個賣電的平台買電跟賣電的這個平台嘛中華電信、中油、中鋼、高鐵要去帶頭這個老蔣這個機制我是不反對的因為這會幫助我們綠能這個發展可是它出了一個很大的問題為什麼弄到現在綠能會賣不出去"},{"start":749.295,"end":762.908,"text":"因為他移動要賣六塊阿所以不只台積電 欸 聽我講 部長不是啦 台積電沒要買嘛 民間不買嘛現在弄到是銀行連帶都不敢去連帶了 對不對那成立這個就是要幫這些風電商 讓他可以繼續下去嘛"},{"start":764.651,"end":792.922,"text":"會不會解套不是不是我們是幫助小這個要買綠電比較小的公司因為他們大的齁要簽二十年啦你剛才在說的簽二十年但是喔我們要幫助這個社會沒必要簽這麼久啦要多少買多少齁啊 比較方便阿臺電本錢就有這個機制阿臺電也是有阿臺電做得不好阿要強化臺電這是一個第二個反應 我跟你講你那個考慮我知道了可是現在最嚴重是什麼地方"},{"start":793.558,"end":805.86,"text":"你叫這家國營企業買都是上市的百萬的股民都在賣啊你現在做兩個事情第一個現在最嚴重的是什麼百萬股民認為說你去買你買的電價太貴嘛現在一度就是六塊啊那裡面你又訂了一個條約喔你看一下喔他說什麼你這些股東啊到時候電賣不出來"},{"start":821.412,"end":844.736,"text":"你股東還要去買啊不會不會不會那你刪掉那個股東本身就是買綠電的這個客戶他本身就是買綠電的客戶那只是我們把他這個條文我先給你看這個條文裡面講到合資股東的義務為了售電公司如果到時候沒有人買啦那大家都沒買買啦那天賣一下請我一堆買來購電對不對股東有義務依照持股比例回過欸"},{"start":850.976,"end":878.448,"text":"你賣賣出又自己賣公營事業就等於是要把這個貴的綠電吃掉了嘛所以現在百萬的股東現在有意見了我明確要求 本人我們講的是一樣的你把這一條刪掉可以 沒問題就是不能賣出去 賣不出去叫我們的中華電信叫中央去買喔 這個今天有很明確的答案喔好不好 保證喔 這很明確喔那以後買電影一直講說怎麼樣才不會買太貴如果將來他們買不到可能會找委員"},{"start":881.689,"end":905.538,"text":"他如果是便宜的店就買得到啦不要買太貴了啦太貴就是我們損失我們股東跟人民我的立場就是不會讓他買到貴的店有剩的時間我再問一個很重要的上個月我們在談這個污染的問題10月22號啊從晚上到凌晨太陽出來之前我們的用火力發電用肺呼吸啊"},{"start":908.94,"end":932.574,"text":"99.8%幾乎沒有其他再生能源了因為太陽沒有出來嘛對不對風又停了嘛現在更嚴重了你知道嗎這個月的14號跟15號我們的污染啊比去年同一個時間污染嚴重了一倍這個圖左邊這是14號右邊是15號你看紅通通的一片這個是環境部的資料啊那為什麼會這麼嚴重我給大家看兩個非常嚴重的圖來大家看一下"},{"start":936.372,"end":961.543,"text":"這張是14號跟15號燃煤發電你說以後不燒煤了你看14號15號我們的燃煤是火力全開的更嚴重的 看好一張連最髒的燃油好 謝謝"},{"start":972.85,"end":974.431,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員時間已到謝謝張啟凱委員的質詢謝謝左院長、經濟部、郭部長備選"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時34分）謝謝主席，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長早。前幾天我去行政院協商，那天我們非常理性、務實、科學的協商，那天我們終於達成了共識，讓總預算可以順利的付委，那天的媒體是這樣講的：為朝野合作樹立好榜樣。那天能夠達成協商有兩個很重要的因素，第一個，那天我們依法很理性、務實的在討論，對不對？第二個重點，為什麼我們會簽這個協議？因為對你的保證，我們投了一票，所以我今天一樣拿出這個結論，請你在照顧原住民、照顧農民跟醫護這三項決議要趕快落實，好不好？你現在追加這1,000億，這個錢比那1,000億少太多了，請趕快兌現你的諾言，照顧農民、原住民跟醫護人員，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員應該知道國家政策是整體的，錢多錢少，照顧對我們來講，不論是政策的執行，都是一樣的重要。我很感謝當天的協商大家能夠各退一方，但是我們朝向是一個未來理性的互動，這個是值得稱許的，我也希望這樣的過程以後不一定要這麼麻煩，很多是可以順順利利的，但是如果有需要，我們再當面的溝通，我當然很樂意把我們的意思和政策說明得很清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，那天大家朝野都簽了字，也是對你的信用跟承諾投了一票，請趕快落實，好不好？","今天一樣，我為什麼會提這個當頭呢？這是朝野和諧的一個榜樣，一樣的，今天談這個1,000億，我們也希望是非常理性、務實、科學的來討論，好不好？我先跟你談一個很重要的點，為什麼今天又要追加這1,000億？你3年已經追加了3次，3,000億嘛！漲價已經漲了5次，為什麼這會變成一個無底洞呢？「越補越大洞，一洞黑漆漆」，那一定有問題嘛！所以不是只有撥補的問題，應該去想到底出什麼問題。其中有一個大的黑洞，就是賴清德賴總統前幾天講的，因為在買綠電的過程裡面產生了一堆弊案，對不對？所以賴清德總統怎麼說，第一個，他喊話叫臺鹽綠能、臺鹽的前董事長陳啟昱趕快到案，這是第一個。第二個最重要喔！他說，整個行政體系要趕快去檢討出了什麼問題，要去把破洞補起來。","那我問你，我現在用陳啟昱這個事情來做比擬，這是賴清德賴總統講的，第一個，趕快把人抓回來啊！第二個，趕快把相關的錢補回來啊！院長，你知道這個錢有多少嗎？人趕快抓回來，不是只有總統喊話而已，人要趕快抓回來，檢警調要趕快動員，對不對？第二個，這個錢有多少？大家看看，他虧空了臺鹽11億喔！更重要的，請部長跟院長要注意這個事情，他除了收賄7,000萬以外，右下角這個大家看一下，他去簽了一堆不平等的條約，未來我們的政府，臺鹽還要負擔多少的賠償，至少超過140億。今天我們在談要補貼1,000億，因為臺鹽綠能出狀況，可能要被廠商求償140億，為什麼有140億這麼多？因為他沒有經過董事會的同意就自己亂簽，去簽了一個非常不平等的，他說「你工程費付了多少，我給你10倍的賠償」。現在台泥在我嘉義義竹那個地方，它本來是漁電共生，現在魚死掉了，電沒有生，還荒廢在那邊喔！現在人家求償多少？14億工程費、工程款的10倍。所以院長，趕快去追這個，人趕快抓回來，該有的這個錢趕快去補回來、虧損趕快補回來。第二個可能面臨虧損的問題，趕快去解決，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，三件事情跟委員報告，第一個，我希望陳啟昱能儘快的到案，敢做敢當，面對司法、面對國人……"],["張委員啓楷：你也是喊話嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：才不枉費國人過去對他也是相當多的支持，應該要敢做敢當，面對司法，我們覺得非常痛心。第二個……"],["張委員啓楷：所以除了總統喊話，你也喊話，那我是說，不是只有喊話而已，應該叫檢警調趕快去把人抓回來。"],["卓院長榮泰：上次在院會我就說過了，第二個，關於綠能犯罪的事情，我們已經在追查了，我已經幾次要求法務部、臺高檢等等全力在追查，我們也設定了時程跟目標。第三個，關於臺鹽綠能未來的這些狀況，我們希望透過法律能夠救濟，儘量減少各種損失，這也是維護臺鹽綠能、臺鹽公司的主要作法，也要向國人有所交代。針對這個案子，我已經數次要求法務部能夠儘快找到當事人來進行說明。"],["張委員啓楷：院長，我們要雷厲風行，我們要共同努力。現在不是只有臺鹽綠能，我再給你看一個，這是上禮拜的一個案子，剛剛才起訴的，在彰化竹塘跟雲林二崙。你看光是民代就收了1,861萬，結果他賺了台電多少錢？4億4,000萬，這是巨額的收入。我們再看下一個案子──力暘弊案，力暘就是臺南的88槍，起訴書裡面檢察官直接跟你講，要從台電賺多少不法所得？91億。另外是聯合再生，套利了2.63億，很恐怖！講的都是「億來億去」，對不對？我們現在談1,000億，結果你看這四、五個案子，每個都是幾億、幾億這樣在搬錢。院長，我提醒你，我們看一下最後一張圖，這是蔡英文總統連任的時候，你看旁邊站的人，這叫全國綠能產業後援會，是不是已經變成一個黑金弊案後援大會？你看左邊陳啟昱，中間這個人叫力暘集團古聖輝，就是88槍的。再來是聯合再生，就是我剛剛講的聯合再生這個案子，這個案子監察院已經糾正了。再右邊是開陽集團的蔡宗融兄弟，在臺鹽綠能也是有角色的。所以從總統一直到院長、到部長都說要嚴辦，對不對？我們拿這張圖，每個人不要因為他支持了誰、參加後援會，要查辦到底而且儘快，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然。"],["張委員啓楷：OK。"],["郭部長智輝：在院長的處理之下，事實上，經濟部跟法務部還有農業部，我們現在都在建立一個平臺，防止這些弊病、防止這些蟑螂可以再次肆虐光電領域。剛才您所指責的這幾個部分，都列為我們未來改進的參考。"],["張委員啓楷：我是肯定的。經濟部最近提了三大措施，包括要跟人民溝通、透明化，我是肯定的，不過正本清源是什麼？因為裡面的利潤太多，所以出現了一些綠能蟑螂。第一個，我是肯定的，可是我們等一下來談怎麼樣釜底抽薪這個問題。第二個，更重要的……"],["卓院長榮泰：三個原則……"],["張委員啓楷：院長，既然要辦，陳啟昱的人要趕快抓到。第二個，這些錢該追的，我剛剛講的這四個案子就幾百億，該追的錢要趕快追出來，包括可能會求償的錢，我們要……"],["郭部長智輝：你剛才所指責的這幾個案子，我們都會追回來。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，來……"],["卓院長榮泰：三個原則，第一個，有爭議的地、太小的地不要開發，就不要開發。第二個，讓業者去面對這些地方的人士不合理，公權力全力介入。第三個，農漁民的權利應該要適度再提升，保障農漁民的利益，讓他不會受地方人士來左右。我們設定三個原則，全力執行。"],["張委員啓楷：院長這個宣示很好，可是一定要落實，說到要做到。"],["卓院長榮泰：已經開始在做。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要是什麼？正本清源。你們有沒有想過，為什麼那麼多人冒著生命危險、要被抓去關？為什麼弊案連環爆？就是因為裡面利潤太高，利潤太高的重點在哪裡？我們看一下，就是躉購電價。躉購電價本來在風電這一塊，你給了他利潤，後來風電這一塊已經退場了，我們剛才說的都是太陽能光電，太陽能光電的躉購電價到現在都還沒有退場。我跟大家講一下，這個躉購電價為什麼會出問題？第一個，大家簽的時候用協調的，所以價格本來就高。第二個，一次20年，所以一堆綠電蟑螂就跑進去，黑道、什麼民代全部都跑進去啊！事實上，各國在推再生能源的時候，都是用躉購制度，沒有錯。可是躉購制度一段時間，市場成熟之後，就會退場了。我剛剛講我們的風電也退場了，但太陽能到現在沒退場。","看一下德國的案子，德國是2000年實施再生能源法，那時候開始用躉購制度，後來2017年就變成競標了。日本是2012年，後來2017年也變成是競標了，所以今天本席明確的要求，趕快好好檢討躉購制度。它有幾個好處：第一個，避免過高的利益，不會導致綠電蟑螂橫行、弊案叢生。這是第一個好處。第二個，它會落實真正的公開透明，因為是公開競標，對不對？所以就是公平競爭。第三個也很重要，我們現在談1,000億，你把躉購制度特別是光電這一塊改成競標，台電的虧損就會降下來，你會買到合理的價格，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該朝這個方向進行。"],["張委員啓楷：往這個方向嘛！院長跟部長已經很明確跟我講，你們往這個落日的方向在走，多久以內可以達成落日？因為你的風電已經落日了嘛！你的光電造成這麼多弊案，又導致台電虧損，趕快給一個時間點，例如可能兩個禮拜，好不好？兩個禮拜提出什麼時候落日，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們回部裡面來討論，儘快給委員一個答案。"],["張委員啓楷：院長、部長，要展現你們的魄力，我剛剛跟你講德國的案例、日本的案例，我們的風電也有這樣的案例啊！快一點，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，委員，現在因為有的已經在進行中，有的還沒有進行，所以我們還是要跟大家來討論，怎麼樣很順利的能夠……"],["張委員啓楷：兩個禮拜給我你們的檢討報告，檢討報告裡面有一個很重要的方向就是剛剛院長講的，你是要往落日條款這個方向去做嘛！對不對？時間點把它訂出來，越快越好，好不好？就像是一邊在查弊的時候，你要正本清源，知道它的利潤在什麼地方嘛！你把它廢掉，那些綠色蟑螂就清掉了、就進不來了，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，在契約當中的，我們要合法的進行，但是不能再出現任何的狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的發展一定朝未來是降低成本的方式來進行，因為這個也是躉購電價當初設計以及大家共同的一個原則，將來一定往更合理的電價計算成本的方向去走，跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：還有一個案子也非常重要，就是最近我們要成立一個買電跟賣電的平台，中華電信、中油、中鋼、高鐵要去帶頭。老實講，這個機制我是不反對，因為這個會幫助我們綠能的發展，可是它出了一個很大的問題，為什麼弄到現在綠能會賣不出去？因為它1度要賣6塊，所以部長，聽我講，不只台積電不買、民間不買，現在弄到是銀行的聯貸都不敢去聯貸了，對不對？成立這個就是要幫這些風電商讓它可以繼續下去，會不會解套？"],["郭部長智輝：不是、不是，我們是幫助要買綠電比較小的公司，因為他們大的要簽20年，就是你剛才說的要簽20年，但是我們要幫助小的，沒必要簽那麼久，要多少買多少，比較方便。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我跟你說一下，台電本來就有這個機制，台電也是有啊，但台電做得不好，要強化台電，這是一個。第二個，部長，我告訴你，你的考慮我知道，可是現在最嚴重的是什麼地方？你叫這些國營企業去買，它都是上市的，現在百萬股民都在罵，你現在做兩個事情，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，它不一定要投資，因為它是用電……"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，你聽我說，現在最嚴重的是什麼？百萬股民認為，第一個，你買的電價太貴，現在1度就是6塊，裡面你又訂那個條約，你看一下它說什麼，到時候電賣不出去，這些股東還要去買？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能，不會、不會、不會。"],["張委員啓楷：那你刪掉……"],["郭部長智輝：股東本身就是買綠電的客戶，他本身就是買綠電的客戶，只是我們把它……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先給你看，這個條文裡面講到合資股東的義務，為了售電公司，如果到時候沒有人買，大家都沒有要買，那個電1度要賣6塊，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，那個……"],["張委員啓楷：等等，我唸給你聽啦：股東有義務依照持股比例回購。你賣不出去，要自己買，國營事業等於是要把貴的綠電吃掉了嘛，所以百萬股東現在有意見了，我明確要求，部長，我們說的是一樣的，你把這一條刪掉。"],["郭部長智輝：可以，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：可以喔？"],["郭部長智輝：沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：就是不能賣不出去叫我們的中華電信、中鋼去買，這個今天有很明確的答案，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["張委員啓楷：保證喔，這個很明確喔，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：以後買電，你一直講說怎樣才不會買太貴，部長，我跟你說……"],["郭部長智輝：如果將來他們買不到，可能會找委員要。"],["張委員啓楷：它如果是便宜的電就買得到啦，不要買太貴的啦，太貴就是股東跟人民損失。"],["郭部長智輝：我的立場就是不會讓它買到貴的電……"],["張委員啓楷：好啦，有剩的時間，我再問一個很重要的。上個月我們在談污染的問題，那天我提醒你，10月22號從晚上到凌晨太陽出來之前，我們用火力發電、用肺呼吸是99.8%，幾乎沒有其他再生能源了，因為太陽沒有出來，風又停了嘛！現在更嚴重了，你知道嗎？這個月的14號跟15號，我們的污染比去年同一個時間嚴重了一倍，這個圖左邊這是14號，右邊是15號，你看紅通通的一片，這個是環境部的資料，為什麼會這麼嚴重？我給大家看兩個非常嚴重的圖，大家看一下，這張是14號跟15號的燃煤發電，你們都說以後不燒煤了，你看14號、15號，我們的燃煤是火力全開；更嚴重的，請看下一張，14號、15號連最髒的燃油都有，這都是台電的資料啊！好不好？院長跟部長想一下，如何讓我們的污染不要繼續下去？剛剛講的這兩種都是很嚴重的，燒煤、燒油，好不好？你們在……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：以氣換煤，以及發展綠能，都是在減少空污……"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以你要努力嘛！不要弄到後來，魚沒有生，電也沒有生，對不對？不要讓弊案再繼續……"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：要讓電可以上來，這是第一個。第二個……"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：剛才講的，最便宜的核能要不要考慮？這時候應該要考慮，重要的是讓人民健康……"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員，時間已到。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓燒煤跟燒油繼續下去。好，謝謝。"],["委員張啓楷書面補充資料：","案由：","有鑑於國內歷經電價連年上漲，政府卻也不斷撥補台電公司，卻無法解決台電虧損問題。惟或因意識形態問題，或因僵化的政策，致能源政策亦無法有效解決電力供應不足、火力發電占比高、電價持續攀升等問題，更因此影響國內民生用電，並將對引進國際廠商推動造成深遠影響，且早成廠商疑慮。請行政院及經濟部就下述問題，進行完整說明，並於113年12月13日前回覆。","1.電價漲幅與國際能源價格的關聯性","(政府多次提到「國際燃料價格上漲」導致電價調整，以下問題需釐清：","1.國際能源價格的實際變化幅度為何？","2.這些價格如何具體影響台灣的電價成本？","3.政府是否有其他因應措施，而非僅依賴調整電價？","2.核電廢止與發電成本的具體影響","(核電發電成本顯著低於燃氣發電，能夠顯著改善台電財務：","1.為什麼在無法達到再生能源目標的前提下，仍堅持廢核？","2.核四如能恢復運轉，是否有完整評估顯示能減少多少依賴燃氣？","3.既然政府承認再生能源目標的落後，是否應重新檢討非核家園政策？","3.政府補助與財政透明度","(政府已補助台電4,000億，且規劃再編列1,000億元：","1.這些補助具體用於哪些項目？是否有詳細的使用報告？","2.若電價持續低於成本，這種大規模補貼是否屬於長期可行的做法？","3.是否會對台灣的財政造成結構性問題？","4.電價審議會的獨立性與透明性","(電價審議會的決策過程如何保證獨立性？","1.審議委員會成員背景如何選定？是否包含不同利益方的代表？","2.決策過程是否公開透明，並提供利害關係人參與？","3.面對政策性凍漲，審議委員會是否具備應有的決策權力？","5.智慧電錶的推廣與效益","(雖然智慧電錶普及率逐年提高，但仍未影響用戶分群定價的落實：","1.為何智慧電錶的普及未能直接改善分群定價的合理性？","2.目前智慧電錶是否提供即時電費反饋，促進節能？","3.政府有無推行更細緻分群定價的時間表？","6.交叉補貼的公平性","(電價的交叉補貼對用戶公平性影響如何評估？","1.工業用戶與住宅用戶之間的差距是否合乎比例原則？","2.為何住宅電價調整滯後，導致政府需動用巨額預算進行補貼？","3.是否有具體方案減少交叉補貼，逐步落實使用者付費原則？","7.電價穩定基金的使用狀況","(電價穩定基金被濫用，導致無法在關鍵時期發揮作用：","1.基金具體的動用條件與使用流程是什麼？","2.過去的使用紀錄是否已公開供社會檢視？","3.是否有計畫重新設計基金機制，避免政策性凍漲的壓力？"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及經濟部郭部長備詢。","接下來請登記第3號洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}