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調價錢但是還是補貼民生為主所以這個一千億主要是在改善我的財務狀況但是我的經營的狀況就是跟這個一千億是沒有正相關我現在跟您雞同鴨講其實我看到的數據"},{"start":290.137,"end":308.352,"text":"我們立法就是立法院的統計啊就這對於這一次你們為什麼編補一千億我們的立法院的一個預算中心他觀察到就是說台電今年113年度即便這一千億補進去之後我們還有九十三億的虧損"},{"start":310.217,"end":329.076,"text":"當然它累計是說今年大概會預計是有1817億這樣的虧損所以你要去補那為什麼你補助1000億我告訴你理由啦原因啦是因為說我們用編列因為這個今年遇到電價你有調漲"},{"start":330.177,"end":354.385,"text":"以及今年的燃料價格下降跟111年跟112年來比較的話我們的燃料成本是下降的所以其中794億是因為你調漲電價以及我們的國際燃料的成本它下降是這樣的原因讓台電在今年的1800多億的虧損"},{"start":357.619,"end":375.903,"text":"用1000億補進去之後未來大概預估93億而已就大概不會造成台電那麼大的一個虧損我直接跟你講答案但是我還是想請教政府除了用這個預算來編補台電以外如何彌補累積到112年底這3826億的一個虧損"},{"start":383.482,"end":411.641,"text":"大原則兩個 一個就是我們未來在採購上我們會跟希望台電能夠更謹慎另外他的資金調度也能夠靈活運用在他的前提下 請部長來談這個都是講這兩年你要怎麼做尤其今年要補助一千億要追加預算一千億明年又要用公務預算來撥補他一千億總共兩千億嘛但是之前已經累計三千八百二十六億這樣的一個虧損已經存在那邊囉"},{"start":414.755,"end":435.632,"text":"我直接問你為什麼過去會累計將近4千億的虧損透過更精準的營運不增加電費收入但是因為電費的需求有增加所以我們希望在成本的控制上面能夠控制得更精準"},{"start":436.192,"end":445.901,"text":"第二透過我們的產購可以買到更便宜的材料我知道您現在講的都是指未來台電要怎麼做有這1000億明年1000億明年2000億之後你如何讓台電的營運能夠"},{"start":452.887,"end":472.237,"text":"不虧損你現在都是在講這件事情剛才您回答分委員也講說我們就減少利息支出那我們會更應當的受信融資信用會好有這一千億的撥補之後你都在講今年跟明年的事你保證明年你不會虧損嗎明年即便一千億補進去你認為不會虧損嗎"},{"start":474.818,"end":492.864,"text":"有信心不會虧損嗎剛才跟委員報告明年還是會虧損明年還是會虧損所以你才要編供預算一千億進去如果沒有補充他可能虧損更大我現在的問題是問您說在111年跟112年這兩年台電大量的虧損大額的虧損巨大的虧損總計達3826億這個數據難道您不知道嗎"},{"start":499.94,"end":528.339,"text":"要我來告訴你啊報告委員我當然是知道的我跟你說我怎麼改善這個虧損的事就是我們會去分析造成這個虧損的原因是什麼然後針對原因去做一些經營上面的改善這一點我想問部長你這部分當然我是肯定你當然你要做這件事情只是今天我們在講說台電會一直虧損的原因我們要去探討啊當然你要用很多的政策"},{"start":529.421,"end":531.462,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具"},{"start":559.788,"end":582.101,"text":"來努力啦齁那這個這個是不是要撥補我想這個是政策的問題所以說所以說部長或者院長所以台電今天會造成虧損的原因我覺得你們都沒有在積極的去做一個分析我們是有在分析你是想要去看用什麼什麼方式來讓台電不再繼續虧損但是為什麼造成虧損"},{"start":584.417,"end":610.748,"text":"這件事情我覺得行政院都沒有記憶在做相對的研究我們剛剛談的原因就是一方面是國際因素一方面就是我們支持弱勢穩定物價照顧民生你剛剛圖上這個這個就是它產生巨大虧損因為國際因素我告訴你111年跟112年為什麼會虧損就是因為疫情那時候國際原料大漲大漲所以造成台電的巨額虧損"},{"start":612.745,"end":626.292,"text":"這是一個非常重要的一個成因沒錯但這3826億的累計虧損要如何解決我到今天還沒有看到行政院有一個很這個詳細的一個因應的一個方式現在講的都是在講113年跟因應114年假設虧損"},{"start":630.354,"end":659.343,"text":"你要做的問題解決的方式我們已經進行了第一個就是今年10月份做比較幅度明顯的電價的調整但是這個也不是不合理喔因為用電大戶其實接近成本另外我們對一些補貼的政策回到目的世界主管機關去另外就是台電要做好它的內控剛剛我說的採煤採購的過程要更合理未來資金的調度包括取得信用這個要更積極我直接問院長跟部長"},{"start":661.572,"end":689.784,"text":"如果這2000億今年的1000億專家預算明年的1000億通過那是不是可以保證我們的電價絕對不會再漲價報告委員這個電價的部分我們還是有電價審議委員在審議啦但我們可以努力的部分就台電自己努力的部分把那個環境做得更好讓這個電價審議委員可以參考這個我們了解電價審議委員我們了解但是電價審議委員他的根據是什麼"},{"start":690.717,"end":715.853,"text":"根據我的經營狀況根據我的依據是說台電不虧損嘛對所以其實我問你這個問題就是說你能夠保證台電就不虧損然後電價審議委員會也不會調漲電價嘛電價就會動漲嘛我們以前就是因為院長這個攸關說你這次要用補助的方式來這個撥補台電但是我們擔心的是台電會不會是個無底洞啊"},{"start":717.448,"end":741.004,"text":"要靠政府補助 能源結構不去改變 每一年都要政府補助今年一千億 明年一千億 後年又要一千億會不會發生這種狀況過去幾年我們用凍漲的時間蠻多的但是累積幾年下來 它就必須有些明顯的調幅 像現在一樣那未來當然我們不可預測國際因素了"},{"start":742.125,"end":769.749,"text":"但是電價審議委員會一樣還是會站在剛剛委員所說的那幾個就是照顧民生弱勢跟穩定物價的方向來調整我想對民生物價的衝擊我還是主張越低越少越好但是一方面也要鼓勵民眾大家真的要節約用電節約能源院長我告訴你過去民進黨在演的時候對於追加預算這件事情民進黨是非常反對的我們看一下影片好了"},{"start":773.186,"end":802.555,"text":"民生大事這個立委諸公們更是要顧好民進黨立院黨團今天就召開了記者會痛批101年度臺電擴充電廠的建設經費追加預算竟然比原來的預算多了1800億元再加上核四追加的500億投資案共2300多億等於全國國人一人要多增加負擔1萬塊錢立委痛批說臺電是少數人的金雞母但根本就是民眾的吸血鬼"},{"start":804.636,"end":827.092,"text":"拿出台電一項向投資追加預算案從核四、林口電廠到萬大電廠等這12項投資案裡面就增加了2300億換句話說全國的人民一個人要負擔一萬塊台電是少數人的金雞母但是是台灣人民的吸血鬼如果我們能夠把這2300億的預算砍掉為人民來把關"},{"start":832.796,"end":855.861,"text":"臺灣人可以三年不用繳家裡的電費民進黨立院黨團算出臺電擴充電廠居然一共追加了2300多億預算今天的數字領再度痛批臺電所以這個是無底洞啊這個要增加多少不知道欸它就一個計畫說明而已所以如果這些都不要花"},{"start":859.01,"end":878.566,"text":"這個院長我想從這段影片我們很清楚看到所以台電如果一直追加預算用政府的預算來撥補的話正如陳庭飛委員講的這是個無底洞所以我在這邊衷心的建議重啟核能我想院長"},{"start":879.773,"end":890.018,"text":"對於重啟核能這件事您在上一次的院會裡面也做報告了你也認為重啟新的核能並非不可能那我們看一下賴總統所成立的"},{"start":896.779,"end":917.916,"text":"事後並簽委員會他的召集人 廖俊智委員他講他在立法院報告的時候他說台灣不能放棄任何減碳的機會包含去碳的燃氣、地熱、核電並且清楚回答國家的能源發展不排除核電部長你的看法怎樣 院長跟部長我當然是說"},{"start":937.213,"end":941.643,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝林思敏委員質詢謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢報言會現在在議場二樓貴賓席的是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時7分）謝謝院長，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：院長，行政院其實是在今年5月2號陳建仁院長的時期就通過主計總處所編具的113度總預算追加案，就是要補助台電1,000億，其實台電在過去兩年我們政府已經補助了4,000億，但是我們看到，截至112年底止，台電累計虧損仍然高達3,826億待彌補。所以我第一個問題要來請教院長，在這次113年度追加了1,000億以後，台電在今年度有沒有去做一個統計，虧損大概還有多少，台電會有多少虧損？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的意思是說……"],["林委員思銘：1,000億補進去之後，台電今年預計的虧損額是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先報告是台電現在的虧損達到4,000億左右，但是今年度我們有過兩次的電價調整，尤其是第二次10月份的這一次，很感謝產業界也非常地支持，調的幅度會比較大，相較之下，當然是會改善一些，但是應該還沒有產生大的……"],["林委員思銘：是。院長，我請教您的是，今年因為你追加1,000億，這1,000億如果立法院讓你通過，台電今年的累計虧損，今年度喔！不包含到112年底的3,826億，今年大概累計虧損會多少？就今年這個年度。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛說累計有達到4,000億，如果明年度追加1,000億的話，到113年底應該還會虧損三千多億。"],["林委員思銘：不是，院長你可能沒聽懂我的意思，我說112年底累積虧損，請部長來回答好了。"],["卓院長榮泰：112年？"],["林委員思銘：112年底累積虧損已經達到3,826億了，如果以今年來看，因為你要追加預算1,000億，你為什麼要追加1,000億，一定有你的理由，也就是說，台電今年還是在持續虧損嘛，你這個虧損……"],["卓院長榮泰：到114年啦，到明年……"],["林委員思銘：明年你又要再撥1,000億，那是明年度嘛。"],["卓院長榮泰：那可能會再降低，會再降低到兩千多億！"],["林委員思銘：這是你的預估，所以我今天要問你，如果以今年度來看，1,000億補進去，今年台電會不會虧損？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，今年補1,000億是改善我的財務狀況，如果有補助的話，大概會產生434億的盈餘，還是會虧損566億。"],["林委員思銘：虧損566億！"],["郭部長智輝：如果明（2025）年有補助的話，我們會有556億的盈餘，大概會虧損444億。因為我們現在這樣……"],["林委員思銘：院長跟部長，依據我們立法院預算中心的推估，這個都是有憑有據的，預計台電在今年大概會有1,887億的虧損，就今年喔，1,887億的虧損！在今年補助1,000億之後，大概會減縮到剩93億的虧損，所以中間有一個差距大概794億，我是依據我們預算中心的計算。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們大家可能引述的數據不一樣，我這邊的數據是，如果有1,000億，這個1,000億其實是在補上一次的，就是我們過去兩、三年因為補貼民生，雖然有調價錢，但還是補貼民生為主，所以這個1,000億主要是在改善我的財務狀況，但是我的經營狀況跟這個1,000億沒有正相關。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我想我現在跟您雞同鴨講！其實我看到的數據就是立法院的統計，對於這一次你們為什麼編補1,000億，我們立法院的預算中心觀察到，台電今（113）年度即便這1,000億補進去之後，還有93億的虧損。以累計來看，今年預計大概會有1,887億的虧損，所以你要去補，為什麼你補助1,000億？我告訴你理由、原因，因為今年遇到電價有調漲，以及今年的燃料價格下降，跟111年跟112年比較的話，我們的燃料成本是下降的，所以其中的794億是因為你調漲電價以及國際原料、燃料的成本下降，是這樣的原因讓台電在今年一千八百多億的虧損當中，用1,000億補進去之後，未來預估大概剩93億而已，就不會造成台電那麼大的虧損，我直接跟你講答案。","但我還是想請教，政府除了用預算來編補台電以外，如何彌補累積到112年底這3,826億的虧損？"],["卓院長榮泰：大的原則兩個，一個就是未來在採構上，我們希望台電能夠更謹慎；另外，它的資金調度也能夠靈活運用。在這樣的前提底下，請部長……"],["林委員思銘：這個都是講這兩年你要怎麼做，尤其今年要補助1,000億、要追加預算1,000億，明年又要用公務預算來撥補它1,000億，總共2,000億，但是之前已經累計3,826億，這樣的虧損已經存在那邊囉！我直接問你，為什麼過去會累計將近4,000億的虧損，原因是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望透過更精準的營運，然後不增加電費收入，也就是說我們……但是因為電費的需求有增加，所以我們希望在成本的控制上面能夠控制得更精準；第二個，透過我們的採購可以買到更便宜的材料。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我知道您現在講的都是指未來台電要怎麼做，有這1,000億……"],["郭部長智輝：因為有賺錢就可以……"],["林委員思銘：今年1,000億、明年1,000億，2,000億之後你如何讓台電的營運能夠不虧損，你現在都是在講這件事情，剛才您回答洪委員也講說：我們就減少利息支出，我們跟銀行的授信融資信用會好，有這1,000億的撥補之後等等。你都在講今年跟明年的事，你保證明年你不會虧損嗎？明年即便1,000億補進去，你認為不會虧損嗎？你有信心不會虧損嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才跟委員報告，明年還是會虧損。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！所以你才要編公務預算1,000億進去嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，如果沒有補充那個，虧損更大……"],["林委員思銘：但是我現在的問題是問您在111年跟112年這兩年，台電大量的虧損，大額的虧損，巨大的虧損，總計達3,826億，這個數據難道您不知道嗎？要我來告訴你？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我當然是知道的，我是跟你說我怎麼改善虧損的事，就是我們會去分析造成虧損的原因是什麼，然後針對原因去做一些經營上面的改善，這一點我想……"],["林委員思銘：部長，你這部分當然我是肯定你，當然你要做這件事情，只是今天我們在講台電會一直虧損的原因，我們要去探討。"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["林委員思銘：你要用很多的政策工具去解決台電虧損的原因，但是我們現在看到的，整個能源政策如果不去做轉變，不管是發展綠能也好，或者水力或者是地熱，種種的能源政策整個把它盤點下來，你有信心我們透過撥補之後，您能保證未來我們就不會再撥補嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會來努力啦！至於是不是要撥補，我想這個是政策的問題。"],["林委員思銘：所以部長或者院長，台電今天會造成虧損的原因，我覺得你們都沒有在積極地去做一個分析……"],["郭部長智輝：我們是有在分析……"],["林委員思銘：你們要想，去看用什麼方式讓台電不再繼續虧損，但是為什麼造成虧損？這件事情我覺得行政院都沒有積極在做相對的研究。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們剛剛談的原因，一方面是國際因素，一方面就是我們支持弱勢、穩定物價、照顧民生，你剛剛圖上的這個，這個就是它產生巨大虧損……"],["林委員思銘：院長剛剛說對了，因為國際因素，我告訴你，111年跟112年為什麼會虧損？就是因為疫情，那時候國際原料大漲，所以造成台電的巨額虧損，這是一個非常重要的成因。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，沒錯。"],["林委員思銘：但這3,826億的累計虧損要如何解決，我到今天還沒有看到行政院有一個很詳細的因應方式，現在講的都是在講113年跟因應114年假設虧損，你要怎麼做的問題……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，解決的方式我們已經進行了，第一個就是今年10月份做幅度比較明顯的電價調整，但是這個也不是不合理，因為用電大戶其實接近成本；另外，我們對一些補貼的政策讓它回到目的事業主管機關去；另外就是台電要做好它的內控，剛剛我說的，採購媒的過程要更合理，未來資金的調度、包括信用要更積極……"],["林委員思銘：因為時間的關係，我直接問院長跟部長，如果這2,000億──今年的1,000億增加預算，明年的1,000億通過，是不是可以保證我們的電價絕對不會再漲價？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價的部分我們還是有電價審議委員在審議，但我們可以努力的部分、台電自己努力的部分，就是把那個環境做得更好，讓電價審議委員可以參考。"],["林委員思銘：這個我們了解，電價審議委員的部分我們了解，但是電價審議委員的根據是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：根據我們的經營狀況。"],["林委員思銘：依據的是台電不虧損嘛！所以我問你這個問題，就是你能夠保證台電就不虧損，然後電價審議委員會也不會調漲電價，電價就會凍漲……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們以前就是好幾年……"],["林委員思銘：因為院長這個攸關……你這次要用補助的方式來撥補台電，但是我們擔心的是台電會不會是個無底洞？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員……"],["林委員思銘：永遠要靠政府補助，你的能源結構不去改變，台電每一年都要政府補助，今年1,000億、明年1,000億、後年又要1,000億，會不會發生這種狀況？"],["卓院長榮泰：過去幾年我們用凍漲的時間滿多的，但是累積幾年下來，它就必須有些明顯的調幅，就像現在一樣，未來當然我們不可預測國際因素，但是電價審議委員會一樣還是會站在剛剛委員所說的那幾個，就是照顧民生弱勢跟穩定物價的方向來調整。我還是主張對民生物價的衝擊越低越少越好，但是一方面也要鼓勵民眾真的要節約用電、節約能源。"],["林委員思銘：院長，我告訴你，過去民進黨在野的時候，對於追加預算這件事情，民進黨是非常反對的，我們看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["林委員思銘：院長，我想從這段影片我們可以很清楚看到，台電如果一直追加預算，用政府的預算來撥補的話，誠如陳亭妃委員講的，這是個無底洞啊！所以我在這邊衷心地建議重啟核能，我想院長對於重啟核能這件事，您在上一次的院會裡面也做報告了，你也認為重啟新的核能並非不可能。我們看一下賴總統所成立的氣候變遷委員會，召集人廖俊智委員在立法院報告的時候說：臺灣不能放棄任何減碳的機會，包含去碳燃氫、地熱、核電，並且清楚回答國家的能源發展不排除核電。部長，你的看法怎麼樣？院長跟部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：我談的是說我們對新的核能可以討論。"],["林委員思銘：可以討論？"],["卓院長榮泰：要重啟的話，現在的法令是不允許的，除非進行另外一種討論。"],["林委員思銘：但是您要有積極的政策推動啊！不是你說法令不行，你要如何推動這個法令的修正，我想這都是行政院……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：再請委員多多指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、經濟部長的備詢。","報告院會，現在在議場2樓貴賓席的是來自大韓民國慶州市議會議員的訪問團，熱情歡迎！안녕하세요（您好）。","接下來請登記第5號賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}