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行政院長好 辛苦了我想這個理性問政在國會是一個國會議員基本的素養無理指控有沒有"},{"start":44.298,"end":72.331,"text":"一個國會員的失格所以我常常要理性問政不非理性的指控每天都要地理自己希望台灣的國會素質能夠一天比一天更好謝謝委員我也希望委員在監督行政院所有的政務人員都是一個委員的職責但是提出各種的問題"},{"start":73.971,"end":102.968,"text":"要讓當事人可以有充分的時間來回答說明跟解釋而且要理直氣和彼此互相尊重雖然是監督關係但是一定要基於理性基於事實那不管是行政部門或是立法部門我想不是廣義的政府嘛政府是為國家為人民服務嘛所以我認為啊為官之道在於人仁義的人"},{"start":103.922,"end":132.324,"text":"何謂人也就是愛人嘛就是善待別人我們對政府這個官員的要求第一個能力要好 體力要好但是EQ更要好因為你的領導統一很重要你把台灣把國家帶往富強之路還是這個折磨你的部署成就你個人的公民在於有沒有人 人一個人"},{"start":133.263,"end":159.409,"text":"所以很難過這個勞動力發展署的事件一個優秀的公務人員失去了性命這是人造成的就是你圍觀沒有以人作為你的根本核心所以我認為這個不是個案問題這可能變成一種在普遍存在於這個各個公部門"},{"start":160.751,"end":185.226,"text":"的問題可能變成一個通案所以很多沒有被爆發出來所以有些有反映了卻沒有得到妥適的處理所以不要把他視為個案要全面去檢視職場罷零零容忍職場零罷零特別是公部門這件事情又發生在勞動部"},{"start":187.239,"end":214.431,"text":"那不是管勞動力權益勞工權益勞動力職場的這個良善當然是這個勞動部主要的工作啊跟華論之前還有這個外交部還有台電也發生過類似的問題還有海生館普遍每一個政府部門都會面對這個問題都會出現這種問題所以不能視為個案全面去檢視到底是哪一個機制有問題把它彌補"},{"start":217.421,"end":229.358,"text":"特別你要選擇一個政府官員你不能只考慮他的能力、他的體力他EQ也是很重要他如果對待他的部署以人代人"},{"start":230.802,"end":257.243,"text":"院長是的報告委員我想總統能夠推動他的治國理念所憑藉的就是執政團隊所有的成員甚至我也認為包括大院所有的委員我們一起把國家推向好的地方所以這就是國家的資產同樣的部會首長要能夠去貫徹執行他的想法跟政策所有的公務人員都是他的手跟腳甚至他的眼睛員工是可貴的資產對呀講到白是報"},{"start":259.885,"end":286.808,"text":"這薄厚的提示要透過這些人來去推動所以應該把它當作自己一樣和自己的家人子民一樣同樣在工作上雖然有位階工作有輕重但是人跟人的對待平等尊重互重這絕對是必要的那這件事情我想讓所有的公務人員跟我們部會所長要深深的讓他們當作一個告誡那我也會遲遲的來提醒大家如何跟"},{"start":287.932,"end":311.738,"text":"我們的同袍跟我們的屬下長官來相處這個是一個非常高深的學問要把它面對這個問題了解問題出在哪裡提出解決問題的方案謝謝院長第二個下一個問題請教就是央行楊建隆總裁啊他建議具體建議我們應該在這個川普政府上台之後要加強對美國的採購以及投資"},{"start":313.323,"end":333.113,"text":"對於這部分當然我們對美國的貿易的順差高500億對不對所以這部分會變成未來這個川普政府有可能以這個貿易順差當作這個貿易制裁的一個手段所以楊金榮總裁才以央行總裁的身份去對政府提供這個經驗"},{"start":334.69,"end":358.54,"text":"那現在政府相關部會包括經濟部、國民事業還是其他國防部對美國的整體的採購項目有沒有整體的戰略性盤點或者有沒有針對這問題再做相關的研議是的 報告委員在美國大選之後我們確實有數次的會議各種型態針對未來的美台關係如果在現在基礎上能夠更為加強"},{"start":359.707,"end":380.675,"text":"但是各個部會都會提出自己的看法剛剛委員所提的央行他應該是從匯率以及這個貿易的順差逆差這方面來看因為雙邊的貿易如果能夠平等才能是長久之計啊如果懸殊太大的話那會變成另外一種不公平但是其他的部會也會從個別自己部會的需要來提出需求"},{"start":381.235,"end":402.248,"text":"那麼總統也好或是行政院也好我們就衡量所有的狀況我們選擇一樣對台灣最有利的政策跟方式也能取得美國的同意跟理解互相來做更深入的合作所以我也請教過農業部長他當然針對幾個品項他有相關的他的看法在未來可能會加強這個採購的部分經濟部的部分"},{"start":403.821,"end":429.19,"text":"經濟部的部分未來有沒有考慮在美國在哪些品項的投資或者是採購我希望說維持台美關係固然重要但是也不要因此破壞或減損台灣產業的競爭力報告委員這一部分我們都有做出一些規劃"},{"start":430.826,"end":446.76,"text":"原則上我們會保留重點在台灣但是因為離開了台灣其實我們要整合也不是那麼簡單所以我們會把最穩定的可以成功的項目才往外去"},{"start":448.341,"end":470.753,"text":"自己講有點抽象有沒有比較具體譬如說大家現在比較關心的說台積電會不會變成美積電然後會不會掏空我跟委員報告半導體是特別特別的困難他要移地生產光是從新竹要移到台中都很難台中要移到我們高雄更難但是我們都克服了因為我們在國內"},{"start":472.074,"end":497.446,"text":"但是你到海外去光是文化生活各方面都有困難那你用美國的美國在地的這一些人員他還要來台灣訓練不然的話我們光是設備去即便面對川普強大的壓力我們的這個半導體我們還是會跟流台灣對那這一部分的話我想跟委員報告我就任以來我曾經提出來一個構念"},{"start":498.266,"end":520.679,"text":"叫做境外關內也就是說幫助我們台灣的產業今天在這個台灣的境外可能在美國的境內我們幫助他讓他能夠落地非常的順利第二個我們幫他爭取不要重複課稅然後幫助他在在讓他在譬如說美國或者是哪個其他的國家"},{"start":521.297,"end":544.471,"text":"在落地的時候更順利這細節明天再跟部長請教那今天的這個台電的部分我們AI的電力需求到2028會增加8倍8倍那個電力的需求量之大現在這個台電好像已經暫停桃園以北所有電池都是在中部、南部"},{"start":545.842,"end":567.544,"text":"南電北送、南電中送、中電北送是一個常態也是目前的狀況未來如果說這個算力中心一再的增加那電力需求勢必要倍數成長這種狀況目前現有以及未來兩三年的我們所謂的電網架構是不是可以滿足這些算力的需求"},{"start":568.616,"end":584.822,"text":"報告委員如果您剛才講的是因為用在AI這個領域裡面它會增加8倍但是我們整個的整體的用電的這個量以我們現在來看AI的部分還是屬於綠電的部分我們目前看起來到2030年"},{"start":586.423,"end":607.429,"text":"我們現在所有的進度還是在控制之內2030年之前所需要的綠電應該我們是可以達標的那我們現在努力的是說2028年以後當AI這個booming開始再拉上來的時候我們很擔心它的這個需求太快漲"},{"start":608.169,"end":625.614,"text":"所以我們現在全力以赴所以你有信心可以滿足未來我們電力能夠負擔這個AI電力需求是好 沒問題好 接著中油啊 也是年年虧損台電可以用國家預算撥補在1、2、1、3、1、4我們都總共撥補將近5000億 對不對5000億 從112年到1、1、3、1、4不管是用獎補助或者用投資的方式"},{"start":634.639,"end":638.009,"text":"大概五千億這樣對來電大家會覺得這個會不會我們重電輕油"},{"start":642.816,"end":672.556,"text":"我可以說為什麼台電可以增資政府可以撥補台電中油的財富狀況也不好呢未來這個天然氣的部分這個也一直上漲也沒有降下來這種狀況它沒辦法這個虧損它撥撥繼續再擴大就可能會破產但為什麼我想請教一下為什麼中油不能讓它增資或者政府不能用撥補的方式像台電一樣來協助中油"},{"start":674.418,"end":684.066,"text":"報告委員中油的虧損其實還是因為政策上那第二個他有一個我們希望大院能夠幫忙的就是說能夠取消啞鈴最低價"},{"start":685.526,"end":712.588,"text":"我們現在有一個法令在上面就是說我們中油的油價是整個亞洲最便宜的這個現在其實是不應該存在的為什麼 因為現在日幣啊因為這個匯率的問題所以它日幣貶成這個樣子所以對我們要這樣做這個亞林水利價是有困難的那這個如果能夠拿掉我相信可以改善非常多中油的財務狀況同樣台電中油都是單負政策目的啊"},{"start":713.328,"end":736.91,"text":"這個再跟委員補充一下中油他公司的負債比當然有一定的比例啦但是他逐年的這個虧損是比較輕微的因為他有每個禮拜有調漲的機制所以他就不會距離他的成本太高雖然我們有一些機制像剛剛部長所說啞鈴最低價的機制那未來他是不是可以取消掉不需要這種限制的話那中油的"},{"start":737.59,"end":752.796,"text":"中友的發展可以更多我希望能夠滾動檢討不要說你未來兩三年都沒有對中友任何預算的撥補也好或者准許他增資也好我會重視一定要滾動檢討另外新創是總統非常重要"},{"start":754.457,"end":772.462,"text":"新創很多都是這個年輕人大概30歲到40歲他最缺少就是資本資本的部分你要怎麼樣去讓他有低同金讓他有獲利能力當然在相關的說服很重要這個財政部中央部長也在這個部分草案條例大概這一次"},{"start":773.519,"end":798.469,"text":"院版還沒有送來那我的版本大概已經放在那邊很久了我也希望說在這個會期能夠針對產創條例能夠修法特別是這23第10條第23-1、23-2、23-4我都有版本行政也都有版本但是還在預告期但我覺得相對於其他國家對新創產業的扶持太過保守"},{"start":800.096,"end":821.404,"text":"這個沒有辦法提供誘因也沒有辦法對這個新創產業提供實質的協助這有點可惜好 你看一下這個簡報裡面我的版本23之1跟廠方署的版本它們大概都差了三倍那這個個人投資新創底檢條件要把它放寬這有共識"},{"start":823.1,"end":839.531,"text":"那你放寬五年我覺得目前新創世界進行到八年比較多應該要進行到八年未來的這個投資門檻的上限應該從一百萬統一到五十萬這也是業界的需求也是大家的期待"},{"start":840.95,"end":868.842,"text":"那我不曉得院長是不是要產上條例目前修法的相關的樣態是 報告經濟部也報告國發會我們一直在討論這個事情那國發會劉珠緯因為人在國外參加重要會議這兩天已經回來了我們等他回來以後要做最後的盤整希望這個產上條例能夠也符合目前實際的需要但我也認為不要過度的保守才是我們對這些新創事業的一個一大鼓勵那院長我請一下財政部創部長"},{"start":871.041,"end":899.068,"text":"我跟財政部討論過好多次財政部護稅署他的立場一直非常非常的堅持這個部分這個我想我們張部長你也了解反而是產發組立場可以比較彈性對於我提案的版本大概也可以慢慢的理解對產業界的聲音比較理解但是那個護稅署對這部分一直堅持不退黨"},{"start":901.035,"end":910.672,"text":"這個我想請教剛才院長是說這個應該要更不要太保守應該要更積極政務總部長您的看法是跟委員報告我想這個部分呢我們還會再做討論是"},{"start":914.121,"end":942.978,"text":"討論"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（15時52分）謝謝院長，請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：院長好，辛苦了！我想理性問政在國會是一個國會議員基本素養，無理指控，一個國會議員的失格，所以我常常以「要理性問政」、不「非理性指控」來每天砥礪自己，希望臺灣國會的素質能夠一天比一天更好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我也希望委員監督行政院所有政務人員，這是委員的職責，但是提出各種問題要讓當事人可以有充分的時間來回答、說明跟解釋。"],["邱委員志偉：對，沒有錯，而且要理直氣和，彼此互相尊重，雖然是監督關係，但是一定要基於理性、基於事實。不管是行政部門或立法部門都是廣義的政府，政府是為國家、為人民服務嘛，所以我認為為官之道在於「仁」，「仁義」的「仁」，何謂「仁」也？就是愛人，就是善待別人。我們對政府官員的要求就是能力要好、體力要好，但EQ更要好，因為你的領導統御很重要，你把國家帶往富強之路，還是折磨你的部屬來成就你的個人功名，就在於有沒有「仁」，「仁義」的「仁」。所以很難過勞動力發展署的事件，一個優秀的公務人員失去了性命，這是人造成的，就是你為官沒有以「仁」做為你的根本核心，所以我認為這不是個案的問題，這可能變成一種普遍存在於各個公部門的問題，可能變成一個通案，只是很多沒有被爆發出來，有些有反映了，卻沒得到妥適的處理，所以不要把它視為個案，要全面去檢視職場霸凌零容忍，職場零霸凌，特別是公部門。這件事情就發生在勞動部，勞動部是管勞動力者的權益、勞工權益，勞動力職場良善當然是勞動部主要的工作，更遑論之前外交部及台電也發生過類似的問題，還有海科館，所以普遍每個政府部門都會面對這個問題，都會出現這種問題，所以不能視為個案，全面去檢視到底是哪個機制有問題，把它彌補。特別你要選擇一個政府官員時，不能只考慮他的能力、他的體力，他的EQ也很重要，他如何對待他的部屬，以仁待人啊！院長，你的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，報告委員，我想總統要推動他的治國理念，所憑藉就是執政團隊所有的成員，甚至我也認為包括大院所有的委員，我們一起把國家推向好的地方，所以這就是國家的資產。同樣的，部會首長要能去貫徹執行他的想法跟政策，所有的公務人員都是他的手跟腳，甚至是他的眼睛……"],["邱委員志偉：員工是可貴的資產，……"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！"],["邱委員志偉：講白一點，是「寶」，對於「寶」要好好疼惜，結果還虐待他！"],["卓院長榮泰：要透過這些人才去推動，所以應該把他當作自己一樣，當作自己的家人、子民一樣，在工作上雖然有位階，工作有輕重，但是人跟人的對待，平等、尊重、互重，這絕對是必要的。對於這件事情，我想所有的公務人員跟我們的部會首長要深深的以此當作告誡，我也會時時的提醒大家，如何跟同袍、屬下、長官相處是一個非常高深的學問啊。"],["邱委員志偉：要面對這個問題，瞭解問題出在哪裡，提出解決問題的方案，謝謝院長。","下一個問題請教，央行楊金龍總裁具體建議，我們應該在川普政府上台後加強對美國的採購以及投資，對於這個部分，因為我們對美國的貿易順差是500億，未來川普政府也有可能以這個貿易順差當作貿易制裁的手段，所以楊金龍總裁才以央行總裁的身分對政府提供這個建言。現在政府相關部會，包括經濟部、國營事業，還是其他像國防部，對美國的整體採購項目有沒有進行戰略性盤點？或者有沒有針對這個問題做相關的研議？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，報告委員，在美國大選之後，我們確實有數次會議，各種型態，針對未來美台關係如何在現在的基礎上能夠更為加強，各部會也都會提出自己的看法，剛剛委員所提出的央行，應該是從匯率及貿易的順差、逆差這方面來看，因為雙邊貿易如果能夠平等，才是長久之計，如果懸殊太大的話，會變另外一種不公平。但是其他部會也會就個別部會自己的需要來提出需求。總統也好，行政院也好，我們就衡量所有的狀況，選擇一樣對臺灣最有利的政策跟方式，也能取得美國的同意跟理解，互相做更深入的合作。"],["邱委員志偉：昨天我也請教過農業部長，他當然針對幾個品項有他的相關看法，在未來可能會加強採購的部分。經濟部的部分呢？郭部長，經濟部未來有沒有考慮在美國有那些品項的投資或者是採購？當然，我認為維持臺美關係固然重要，但是也不要因此破壞或減損臺灣產業的競爭力，郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這部分我們都有做出一些規劃，原則上我們會保留重點在臺灣，因為離開了臺灣，其實我們要整合也不是那麼簡單，所以我們會把最穩定的、可以成功的項目才往外去落地。"],["邱委員志偉：這個講的有一點抽象，有沒有比較具體的？"],["郭部長智輝：譬如說大家現在比較關心的是台積電會不會變成美積電，然後會不會掏空，我跟委員報告，這個半導體是特別特別的困難，它要移地生產，光是從新竹要移到臺中都很難，臺中要移到我們高雄，更難，但是我們都克服了，因為在我們國內。但是你到海外去，光是文化、生活各方面都有困難，那你用美國在地的這些人員，他們還要來臺灣受訓練，不然的話，我們光是運設備去……"],["邱委員志偉：即便面對川普強大的壓力，我們的半導體還是會根留臺灣？"],["郭部長智輝：對。這一部分的話，我想跟委員報告，我就任以來曾經提出一個概念叫做「境外關內」，也就是幫助我們臺灣的產業在臺灣的境外，可能在美國的境內，我們幫助他，讓他能夠落地非常的順利；第二個，我們幫他爭取不要重複課稅，然後幫助他讓他在譬如說美國或者是哪個其他的國家，在落地的時候更順利。"],["邱委員志偉：好，細節部分明天再跟部長請教。今天關於台電的部分，我們AI的電力需求到2028年會增加8倍，8倍電力需求的量之大，況且現在台電好像已經暫停桃園以北的電廠興建案，所有的電廠都是在中部、南部，南電北送、南電中送、中電北送，這是一個常態，也是目前的狀況，對不對？未來如果算力中心一再地增加，那電力需求勢必要有倍數的成長，對於這種狀況，目前現有以及未來兩、三年我們所謂的電網架構，是不是可以滿足這些算力的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您剛才講的是用在AI這個領域裡面的電力會增加8倍，但是我們整體的用電量，以我們現在來看，AI的部分還是屬於綠電的部分，我們目前看起來到2030年，我們現在所有的進度還是在控制之內，2030年之前所需要的綠電，應該我們是可以達標的。那我們現在努力的是，2028年以後，當AI這個blooming開始再拉上來的時候，我們很擔心它的需求漲太快，所以我們現在全力以赴在……"],["邱委員志偉：所以你有信心可以滿足，未來我們的電力能夠負擔AI電力的需求？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，沒有問題。接著，中油也是年年虧損，台電可以用國家預算撥補，在112、113、114年度我們總共撥補將近5,000億，對不對？5,000億，從112年到113、114，不管是用獎補助或者用投資的方式，針對台電大概投入5,000億，當然會令人覺得我們這樣會不會是重電輕油？員工就說為什麼台電可以增資，政府可以撥補，中油的財務狀況也不好，未來天然氣的價格可能也會一直上漲，也沒有降下來，面對這種虧損的狀況，它沒有辦法繼續再擴大，有可能會破產，但為什麼，我想請教一下，為什麼不能讓中油增資，或者政府不能用撥補的方式，像協助台電一樣來協助中油？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，中油的虧損其實還是歸因於政策，第二個，有一個我們希望大院能夠幫忙的，就是能夠取消「亞鄰最低價」，我們現在受到一個法令上的拘束，也就是說我們中油的油價是要整個亞洲最便宜的，這個規定現在其實是不應該存在的，為什麼？因為匯率的問題，現在日幣貶成這個樣子，所以對我們現在要做「亞鄰最低價」其實是有困難的。這部分如果能夠拿掉，我相信中油的財務狀況可以改善非常多。"],["邱委員志偉：同樣台電、中油都是擔負政策目的，對不對？因為它的虧損……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個再跟委員補充一下，中油公司的負債比當然有一定的比例，但是它逐年的虧損是比較輕微的，因為它有每個禮拜調整的機制，所以油價就不會距離它的成本太遠，雖然我們有一些機制，像剛剛部長所說的「亞鄰最低價」的機制，未來這個機制是不是可以取消掉，不需要受那種限制的話，那中油的發展可以更多。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望能夠滾動檢討啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：不要說未來兩、三年都沒有對中油有任何預算的撥補也好，或者准許它增資也好，一定要有滾動檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會重視，會重視中油的……"],["邱委員志偉：一定要滾動檢討。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，新創是總統認為非常重要的，新創很多都是大概30歲到40歲的年輕人，他最缺少的就是資本，在資本的部分你要怎麼樣去讓他有第一桶金，讓他有獲利能力，當然相關的稅負很重要，財政部莊部長也在，關於這個部分，這一次產創條例的院版還沒有送來，我的版本已經放在那邊很久了，我也希望產創條例能夠修法，特別是第十條、第二十三條之一、第二十三條之二、第二十三條之四，我都有版本，行政院也都有版本，但是還在預告期，那我覺得相對於其他國家，我們對新創產業的扶植太過保守，沒有辦法提供誘因，也沒有辦法對新創產業提供實質的協助，這個有一點可惜。你看一下簡報，我所提版本的第二十三條之一跟產發署的版本大概都差了3倍，對個人投資新創抵減條件要予以放寬已經有共識，那你放寬5年，我覺得目前新創事業集中在8年比較多，所以應當要提升到8年，還有未來這個投資門檻的下限應該從100萬統一到50萬，這是業界的需求，也是大家的期待，院長知不知道產創條例目前修法的相關樣態？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員，包括經濟部，也包括國發會，我們一直在討論這個事情，國發會劉主委之前人在國外參加重要會議，這兩天已經回來了，我們等他回來以後要做最後的盤整，希望這個產創條例能夠符合目前實際的需要，但是我也認為不要過度的保守，才是我們對這些新創事業的一大鼓勵。"],["邱委員志偉：院長，我請一下財政部莊部長，我跟財政部討論過好多次，財政部賦稅署的立場一直非常非常的堅持，就這個部分我想莊部長也了解，反而是產發署的立場可以比較有彈性，對於我提案的版本大概也可以慢慢的理解，對產業界的聲音比較理解，但是賦稅署對這部分一直堅持不退讓，所以我想請教，剛才院長是說這個不要太保守，應該要更積極，莊部長，您的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，我想這個部分我們還會再討論。"],["邱委員志偉：已經討論很久了，你們的立場……"],["莊部長翠雲：對……"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部有他們財政部的立場，經濟部有他們發展的方向，也因為這樣子，我們才必須由一個政委在當中協調，到最後也必須要讓我來看看這個狀況，我們再來做最後的決定，我覺得要讓產業能夠健全的發展是比較優先的考量。"],["邱委員志偉：莊部長，剛剛院長說現在是太保守，應該不要太保守，應該要更積極一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：保守得很適合、很適當。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及部會首長的備詢。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝院長。"],["主席：報告院會，我們113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案之質詢均已詢答完畢，謝謝卓院長以及相關部會首長今天的列席答詢。","我們現在作以下決定：一、113年度中央政府總預算追加預算案，交財政委員會會同有關委員會審查；二、將各委員發言紀錄及書面質詢函送行政院，請就未答復部分予以書面答復；三、已提出之書面質詢，尚未登載公報者，一律補刊。","我們現在散會。","散會（16時9分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":224,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-9","speakers":["韓國瑜","傅崐萁","張啓楷","洪申翰","林思銘","賴瑞隆","王鴻薇","陳培瑜","黃健豪","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","吳思瑤","廖偉翔","李坤城","張智倫","邱志偉"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-11-19"],"gazette_id":"1139501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1139501_00003","1139501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第9次會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院院長、主計長、財政部部長及相關部會首長列席報告「113年度中央政府總預算追加\n預算案」編製經過並備質詢─ 詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1139501_00013"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}