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"這算不算貪汙?要不要移送檢調?"},{"start":350.759,"end":357.042,"text":"我們已經正風在調查這個案因為這是委員這也是剛剛我證據確實啊繼續看繼續看此外北分署111年並沒有連結政理喔過去沒有這個習慣喔但是謝宜龍112年到任之後過去兩年的三節政理金高達183萬他是不是濫發禮品做個人公關啊"},{"start":382.128,"end":397.182,"text":"根據2月份的陳情,謝怡榮分署長還要求這些禮盒的外包裝要有特別的設計並且都發包給同一個有人私交慎阻的設計師處理而且還不是從首長的特別費支出他是動用了北分署各種業務計劃的預算來支應包括至少兩項青年職能開發業務"},{"start":407.003,"end":419.256,"text":"促進特定對象就業服務部長這是在促進分署長有人的就業嗎這算不算圖利我們會立案調查圖利是要收押進去的喔"},{"start":420.54,"end":438.208,"text":"我們已經這已經都政風有在了解而且在調查中部長我最後想請你看一下這一張這個是你們勞動部勞動部的勞發署執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引上面就這張表格職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表"},{"start":439.108,"end":463.085,"text":"當中所附的表格主要是給僱主跟主管職務來檢核自己的行為是否涉及霸凌我昨天看了你的記者會之後你知道我馬上反省我自己我有沒有做過類似的事情所以請勞動部部長您自己還有今天在場的每一個主管官員今天在場這裡今天到場每一個主管官員我要求你們填一份這個東西"},{"start":464.662,"end":493.835,"text":"自己回去好好想想看你平日檢視自己平日的言行是否適當我不想讓這有悲劇的這個霸凌悲劇發生你們每次都要填一份填一份要副本送到我辦公室或送到委員會我今天要這個東西好我再跟你複習做最後總複習我今天要四個工作部長你回去有四個工作儘管我們過長期的私交我今天是不假情面第一個二月份的約談紀錄我要機密東西你自己你自己擦掉我要他到底有沒有約談的主旨二月份"},{"start":494.895,"end":510.739,"text":"布里沒有約談記錄因為布里根本沒有這件事你又去查清楚我萬一查出來這個真的是沒有這件事我跟班次長談的這個議員都有質詢到我們也有資料好 第一個你如果有我今天就要質詢你回去查我已經查過了真的是沒有你去查第二個"},{"start":514.82,"end":540.177,"text":"就調查結果重新寫一份報告因為你的報告的事實跟這個結論是不一致的我要求重寫 三天內重寫剛剛的結論剛剛的結論我可以再跟您解釋一下嗎沒有 結論不同這麼多的霸凌事件結果他說不能證明該員工是因為等等等等我所謂的不能證明是因為確實而且還說不能不是任何人證明的主要是來委員您聽我解釋一下好不好就是謝分署長跟這位離開的同仁之間還隔兩個還隔兩位主管"},{"start":544.039,"end":560.031,"text":"一位副分署長、一位秘書室主任直接督導他的是區訓長、副分署長以及秘書室主任謝分署長與他之間還隔著這兩位所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他但是謝分署長有霸凌我霸凌其他的官人"},{"start":569.398,"end":570.48,"text":"關於副分署長在10月30號約見離開的同仁"},{"start":586.241,"end":606.519,"text":"並且退他的件,要求他11月4號重寫我可不可以把這份資料送給您?那你為什麼昨天,你要給我這都可以啊,但是我他的功課你要給我啊這就是為什麼關鍵的這樣子的原因今天弄出人命了耶對,我為什麼會說謝分署長無法證實他直接霸凌他是因為他不是直接督導他的人你敢不敢辦他?還是你不敢辦他?我當然敢辦他你敢辦他?當然,因為我考機會正在,我考機會"},{"start":614.165,"end":639.831,"text":"我考機會會進行懲處我認為檢查檢調跟檢察院檢調不要忘了洪頌秋我在改變我報完之後洪頌秋國防部內部自己調查說沒有違法我報完之後我會移送檢察院以及檢調檢調就有違法委員我這個禮拜六就會進行懲處之後我會移送檢調跟檢察院好嗎這個案子我們不會放過的好謝謝就是我們要提案要求送檢察院跟送檢調好謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":275,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時17分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，昨天北分署霸凌案的調查記者會，不但沒有釐清真相，而且是讓這把火越燒越大，因為這是一份前後矛盾、邏輯不通、官官相護的調查報告，我為什麼這樣說呢？請你先看簡報，你們這個調查報告明確地寫出謝宜容分署長有大聲咆哮、怒罵或貶低同仁的行為，還導致多人求助身心科；他在下班或假日要求回復訊息，如果沒有即時回復，會遭責問；接到關於自身的檢舉案，他竟然要去知道檢舉人是誰；對於工作不滿意的同仁就進行排擠；甚至要求員工在上班時間去參加跑步活動，壓縮同仁的工作時間；還有退回屬下公文後，他就不斷地面商，但是都不給明確地指示，而且言語間夾帶貶低。部長，如果這是你，你會覺得是霸凌嗎？請回答是不是霸凌？有沒有霸凌的感覺？"],["何部長佩珊：當然、當然，我們也承認這是霸凌，我們在報告裡也承認這是霸凌。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我繼續來。勞動部職安署訂定的指引中有組織內部常見的不法侵害，你剛剛提到的都只適用勞工，不適用公務員，但我覺得基本上保護人民的精神跟原則是一樣的。在組織內部常見的不法侵害有五點，其中你的報告裡面就自己寫出了三點，包括咆哮、怒罵、找出檢舉自己的人、要求過高、退文又不給明確的指示、賦予不必要的工作、要人家上班時間去跑步，以謝分署長的行為絕對是霸凌！但是非常荒謬地，調查報告明明列出一大堆謝分署長長久以來的職場霸凌行為，但對於這件輕生個案卻說，無法證明該員工有遭受長官的職場霸凌。請問這到底是什麼邏輯啊？你根據這個調查的事實也推不出這樣的結論啊！難道謝分署長霸凌的對象很多很多人，就唯獨沒有這個輕生的員工嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我跟委員報告，確實是如此，他……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你暫時先停下來，你昨天在記者會上竟然說，讓同仁有職場霸凌的感受，但這不是造成同仁選擇結束生命的直接原因。部長，這件事是你能斷定的嗎？你是檢調還是法官還是心理師？我認為沒有水落石出之前，部長做這樣定調，說員工不是因為受霸凌而輕生，是非常不恰當的。部長，我不要你勞動部重啟調查，我只要你重寫報告，你根據調查的事實寫出的報告是不符合的，我要求3天內重寫一份報告回來，根據事實就好，不用重啟調查。部長，你昨天說會將謝分署長調離原單位，並降為非主管職，另外再送內部考績會，請問這樣就結案了嗎？你要不要將謝宜容送監察院？"],["何部長佩珊：還沒有結案。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要不要送監察院？如果按照公務員懲戒法，你有權力把他送到監察院進行調查。"],["何部長佩珊：監察院已經啟動調查了。"],["陳委員昭姿：監察院如果認為有問題，甚至可以送到懲戒法院，必要時還要停職，如果對於謝宜容長期以來這些霸凌行為，你們調查內容屬實，你確定你送監察院了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：監察院已經啟動調查了。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是，你有送監察院嗎？監察院是主動的是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我必須先完成我內部的懲戒，我會再送監察院。"],["陳委員昭姿：反正如果你不提，我會提案的，請不要忘記喔！你說你的調查五點，不要忘記洪仲丘案，國防部自己調查說沒有違法情事，結果送到檢調以後，有沒有違法？不要忘記洪仲丘的案子！","再來，部長，之前吹哨者指出，2月份就有人投訴謝宜容，當時的王安邦次長有進行約談，昨天記者會有媒體關心這個議題，但是部長卻輕輕說，這件事不在調查範圍內，就草草帶過了，部長為什麼認為這個不在調查範圍呢？今年2月王安邦次長到底有沒有約談謝宜容、約談事由是什麼、談了什麼？部長，你知道這件事嗎？他有約談過……"],["何部長佩珊：我看了媒體的報導。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那你回去看，在今天質詢整體結束之前，我要求勞動部要交出當時這份約談紀錄，因為這是過去的事，不是現在要做的事，我今天就要！今天整個質詢結束前，你現在部屬都知道，馬上去調資料！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可以跟您報告嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：我馬上要這個資料，今天整個結束之前，我要這份約談紀錄！"],["何部長佩珊：我理解的應該是，這只是一個私下的談話，我們沒有任何紀錄。"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以遮的遮，我要知道有沒有約談、約談的事由是什麼，至少我可以知道吧？"],["何部長佩珊：因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，其實貴黨的新北市議員已經在臉書貼出了北分署員工2月份的陳情書，你看這五點，用公用電養植栽，電費暴漲；言語霸凌怒罵；濫用公帑濫發禮品；發包標案給特定友人；要求上班時間參加跑步活動。其中二跟五你在調查報告中有提到，一、三、四我拿證據給你看，大家好好看這份報告。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這部分我們都已經立案調查了。"],["陳委員昭姿：好好看，謝宜容分署長是去年3月1日到任的，北分署同仁投訴他，自己喜好植栽，種植大量植栽，而且用公費加裝軌道燈24小時照明植物，造成電費大增。軌道燈這個我都還第一次聽到。再看一下，去年同期跟他上任後的同期相比，比起111年同期，112年的用電度數增加了1萬5,687度，電費暴漲近55萬，這算不算貪污？要不要移送檢調？我馬上提案，移送檢調！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們政風已經在調查這個案子，委員，因為這是……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是說監察院跟檢調，不是你們內部的！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這也是剛剛……"],["陳委員昭姿：我證據確實啊！繼續看，此外，北分署111年並沒有年節贈禮，過去沒有這個習慣，但是謝宜容112年到任之後，過去兩年的三節贈禮金高達183萬，他是不是濫發禮品做個人公關？根據2月份的陳情，謝宜容分署長還要求這些禮盒的外包裝要有特別的設計，並且都發包給同一個友人、私交甚篤的設計師處理，而且還不是從首長的特別費支出，他是動用了北分署各種業務計畫的預算來支應，包括至少兩項：青年職能開發業務、促進特定對象就業服務。部長，這是在促進分署長友人的就業嗎？這算不算圖利？"],["何部長佩珊：我們會立案調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：圖利是要收押禁見的喔！"],["何部長佩珊：我們政風都已經有在瞭解，而且在調查中。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我最後想請你看一下這一張，這個是你們勞動部勞發署執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引，上面這張「職場不法侵害行為自主檢核表」，是指引當中所附的表格，主要是給雇主跟主管職務者來檢核自己的行為是否涉及霸凌。我昨天看你的記者會之後，我馬上反省我自己，我有沒有做過類似的事情。所以請勞動部部長您自己，還有今天在場的每一個主管官員，今天到場的每一個主管官員，我要求你們填一份這個東西，自己回去好好想想，檢視自己平日的言行是否適當，我不想要再有霸凌悲劇發生，你們每個都填一份，填一份以後副本送到我辦公室或送到衛環委員會。","我今天要的東西，我再跟你做最後總複習，我今天有四個工作，部長，你回去有四個工作，儘管我們過去長期的私交，我今天是不顧情面，第一個，2月份的約談紀錄我要，機密東西你自己擦掉，我要看他到底有沒有約談，約談的主旨。"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員我要跟您報告，2月份部裡沒有約談紀錄，因為部裡根本沒有這件事……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要去查清楚，萬一查出來？"],["何部長佩珊：真的是沒有這件事的檔案或資料。"],["陳委員昭姿：王安邦次長談的這個，議員都有質詢到，我們也有資料，好，第一個，你如果有我今天就要，你回去查，因為你5月才上任，我原諒你……"],["何部長佩珊：我真的查過了，真的是沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：你去查，你去查！第二個，就調查結果重新寫一份報告，因為你報告的事實跟結論是不一致的，我要求重寫，3天內重寫，你重新給我一份。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，剛剛的結論，我可以再跟你解釋一下嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有啦！結論不同，這麼多的霸凌事情，結果它都不能證明該員工是因為等等等等，這不一致。"],["何部長佩珊：我所謂的不能證明，是因為確實……"],["陳委員昭姿：而且還說不能證明他是因為這原因輕生！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你聽我解釋一下好不好？就是謝分署長跟這位離開的同仁……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是第二份工作，第三個……"],["何部長佩珊：之間還隔兩位主管，一位副分署長、一位秘書室主任……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，他是長期犯，部長，請你把謝分署長送監察院……"],["何部長佩珊：直接督導他的是資訊長、副分署長以及秘書室主任，謝分署長與他之間還隔著這兩位，所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他。"],["陳委員昭姿：你去把它釐清，你去把它釐清，你昨天記者會其實……"],["何部長佩珊：所以謝分署長沒有直接霸凌他……"],["陳委員昭姿：第三件事情，我要將……"],["何部長佩珊：但是謝分署長有霸凌其他的同仁……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長請把分署長送監察院，一週內，還有今天在場主管的自我檢查表，副本送我辦公室，正本送衛環委員會。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我可不可以把這一段也一併送給您？關於副分署長……"],["陳委員昭姿：四個工作！"],["何部長佩珊：在10月30號約見這個離開的同仁，並且退他的件，要求他11月4號重寫，我可不可以把這份資料移送給您，好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：那你為什麼昨天……你要給我這都可以啊，但是我要的功課你要給我啊！"],["何部長佩珊：是，關鍵的原因是在這裡。"],["陳委員昭姿：今天鬧出人命了耶！"],["何部長佩珊：對，對，我為什麼會說無法證實謝分署長直接霸凌他，是因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：你敢不敢辦他？"],["何部長佩珊：他不是直接督導他的人。"],["陳委員昭姿：你想不想辦他，還是你不敢辦他？"],["何部長佩珊：我當然敢辦他！"],["陳委員昭姿：你敢辦他？"],["何部長佩珊：當然！因為我考績會正在……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，辦給大家看，辦給國人看！"],["何部長佩珊：我考績會會進行懲處。"],["陳委員昭姿：考績會不夠，我認為至少檢調跟送監察院！檢調，不要忘了洪仲丘……"],["何部長佩珊：我辦完之後……"],["陳委員昭姿：我再講一遍，洪仲丘國防部內部自己調查說沒有違法，自己人調查是有問題的啦！"],["何部長佩珊：我辦完之後會移送監察院以及檢調……"],["陳委員昭姿：結果呢？檢調說有違法！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我這個禮拜內就會進行懲處，之後我會移送檢調跟監察院好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：這個案子我們不會放過的。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要提案要求送監察院跟送檢調，好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長，辛苦了。","接續我們請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}