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的意思是說那5年的時效從判決確定或者是不請訴確定開始算對在之前的通通都不算就是不會就是中斷我可以從我的時效不會因為這樣而受到你那個時效中斷的事由是規定在哪裡行政法法26條行政法法26條你會等到不請訴確定或是無罪確定才開始起算這5年嗎對好很好來請秘書長"},{"start":243.533,"end":269.567,"text":"下一個問題針對監察院的預算大家其實都很關心出國的旅費年年攀升從我們過去這幾年看得出來到了今年大概1300萬了祕書長剛剛的確是有說明那前面之前有引發軒然大波去日本考察黑熊的保育他的意義在哪裡我也看到了監察院有發了一個"},{"start":272.228,"end":294.896,"text":"我們有一個新聞稿有新聞稿做回應說近年調查案件不少與自然保育有關係 32案還有原住民文化再加起來32案那這兩個加起來在你們所有調查案件的比例有多高比例算不低了因為我們調查的案件類型非常多來我們來看一下立法院預算中心是怎麼講的"},{"start":296.036,"end":314.697,"text":"立法院預算中心說有關於動物原住民族文化保存權益保障監察院他所提出來的報告占同時期的報告比例偏低只占1.2%所以其重大性是否足以列為優先考察事項有待審酌"},{"start":315.918,"end":327.708,"text":"來兩個部分跟方委員報告第一個部分這個是職員出國的部分題目是由職員自己選定第二個部分就是用這樣的數字來比較我認為有欠公允那怎麼樣的數字來比較你覺得認為好剛剛你說"},{"start":330.765,"end":355.889,"text":"比例不低嘛!立法院預算中心算出來是比例佔1.2%嘛!我們先確認一件事情啦!立法院預算中心的比例有沒有算錯?因為我們調查的案件非常多嘛!是!對!他這裡是從103年開始算起!是!32案不是從103年開始算起!是!所以你覺得他的計算基準不公平嗎?對!那你覺得他計算基準要怎麼算才公平?"},{"start":356.589,"end":382.487,"text":"我跟黃委員報告我的意思是說我們的職員認為說這個東西因為在近年來有32案兩個議題加起來有32案他們認為有討論的必要所以他們選定這個題目我們剛剛在談比例嘛阿你現在在談數字嘛那我們現在到底要談比例還是要談數字剛剛你說比例不低嘛所以我就說按照你的計算基準那個比例算多少至少年度要一樣嘛"},{"start":385.03,"end":398.17,"text":"所以按照你們的計算比例是多少103年這裡講的2612案到112年那這個32案的比例不是從103年開始起算所以按照你計算的比例應該有多少"},{"start":399.491,"end":424.406,"text":"這個我們還要回去查一下沒關係你查完了以後順便回覆好不好我們順便可以回答你們在想所以今年為例考察的主題就是日本的法官與懲戒制度對你們在為明年的預算捍衛的時候就討論今年你們派人到日本考察每年都不一樣是考察日本的法官跟懲戒制度來監察院去日本考察法官"},{"start":425.627,"end":453.227,"text":"彈劾跟懲戒制度這個報告我念完了請問彈劾以後對於我們國家的制度具體的啟示考察的意義在哪裡可不可以說明一下這個報告我全部都看完了是 這個部分我們也在全院我們同仁有拿出來報告這個部分我們最主要認為它有差別性也有相同性差別性跟相同性就是彼此之間的制度不一樣"},{"start":453.968,"end":454.108,"text":"報告委員好"},{"start":478.806,"end":480.429,"text":"這個我知道啦我時間有限我沒有時間提你從頭報告到尾但我可以負責任的跟你講"},{"start":493.038,"end":521.528,"text":"我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了拜讀完了以後我看你們去日本東京去了五天嘛第一天最後一天扣掉有三天第三天的時候有跑去處理他們有關於彈劾的制度那沒有關係旅程大家都很疲憊到了第一天要休息一下最後也可能要休息一下這個我都理解我的問題很具體啊"},{"start":522.728,"end":540.183,"text":"你們拿今年的報告來幫明年的報告辯護嘛要跟全體的納稅人說這個錢啊花的有道理這個錢花的有價值嘛那我當然要負責任的審查預算那我就要去拜讀啊你從這個報告裡面去了日本一趟回來"},{"start":541.304,"end":559.517,"text":"對我國的彈劾制度對我國法官的懲戒制度到底產生了什麼樣的事說事說是日文常用的啦通常一般我們在講的是啟示嘛對我國國家制度的改革從你這次考察以後的心得具體的講講兩點就好是"},{"start":561.938,"end":578.533,"text":"第一就是我要說明一下說我們有去觀察東京都跟他的中央的國家的中央的機關的公務員的懲處的部分也有考察到懲處就是這包括他的人事院跟東京都的部分"},{"start":579.033,"end":602.345,"text":"另外有關於法官的部分因為他的案件非常非常少總共76年才10案那我們就可以觀察出來說第一就是他的在日本的有關於法官的懲戒他是非常限縮的是只有法官跟人事官而已那我們的懲戒是包括中央跟地方的公務員那其實可以觀察的出來懲戒跟懲處怎麼劃分這是"},{"start":604.526,"end":614.514,"text":"在學界有非常多的討論目前在修正公務員懲戒法的時候也有非常多的一些修正不好意思 處長先請你等一下我剛剛很耐心的"},{"start":615.782,"end":634.247,"text":"在我有限的質詢的時間當中讓你充分發揮讓你充分發揮告訴全體國人我們這次去考察對我國制度的啟示跟勢說是什麼剛剛你有沒有把這個核心的問題做說明我相信啦我相信"},{"start":636.01,"end":664.929,"text":"所有透過現在的直播在看到的公民大家心裡都有一把尺我不做評價我心裡有我心裡的評價每一個看完你說明的人大家心裡都可以有評價來接下來請秘書長2009年我們立法院的總召科建民跟我們現在已經成為總統的賴清德說監委出國巡查假查案曾光光要求三預算"},{"start":666.291,"end":692.944,"text":"我看到那個時候我們的柯建民跟賴清德這樣的提案看得非常的感動所以我就要接下去來看因為有時候我看你們的預算書那個預算書的編列真的蠻粗的啦真的蠻粗的是不是符合預算書編列的原則我們等一下馬上會處理到但我只是想具體的請教具體的請教2023年10月陳菊率團赴義大利訪查花了多少錢"},{"start":695.384,"end":697.185,"text":"10月現在沒有數字沒有關係因為這個問題可能秘書長沒有準備到我們詢答要公平可不可以書面一個禮拜之內回覆可以喔拜託花了多少錢從哪一個預算向下支出的請用書面回覆請用書面回覆可以嗎"},{"start":725.543,"end":739.275,"text":"因為啊率了這一大團去到底用預算書的哪一個向下支出的啊我負責任的從2023年的預算書啊你們編列的計畫院長的出遊我一樣一樣看沒有關係啦對對對別人是出遊但陳菊絕對不會出遊啦我們一樣一樣我們一樣一樣"},{"start":750.66,"end":751.06,"text":"委員長率領了4個"},{"start":771.713,"end":797.996,"text":"檢察委員還率領了五位隨行的同仁這個考察團算是大的啦這麼大的考察團回來了以後我看到這個心得跟建議只有一頁我看了其實覺得有點驚訝但沒有關係我也沒有要秘書長評價我今天是利用質詢的時間把所有的資訊攤出來所有的公民"},{"start":798.917,"end":817.082,"text":"都可以到監察院的網站上面去看監察院所交出來的報告他的內容他所花的錢是不是值得這個錢我相信大家心裡會有一把尺接下來2024年5月陳菊到奧地利集合然花了多少錢"},{"start":819.107,"end":836.359,"text":"這個應該就比較新了 這你錢你應該知道嘛那我跟黃委員報告去荷蘭的部分是因為今年IOI的年會在荷蘭瞭解剛剛你報告的時候已經說了嘛奧地利的部分是因為IOI的總部在奧地利是是是 這個你剛剛都說明了所以總共花了多少錢所以總共花了多少錢這個部分詳細的數字兩百多萬兩百多多少"},{"start":847.018,"end":870.624,"text":"兩百二左右兩百二十萬嘛從哪一個預算科目下支出的參加國際會議相關事項來來來我現在喔把你們今年齁今年的預算今年的預算是去年審的嘛對2024年的預算表出來了嘛來我把它列出來了來跟大家講一下這個錢從哪裡支的來我請我們王主委可以可以來請嘿"},{"start":872.312,"end":874.894,"text":"來來來 你看我現在給你的預算書 有在上面嗎 有在第幾頁 定期會議請您看右邊 定期會議參加國際監察組織會議 是的 指的是這個向下嗎 對 全部都是這個向下支的"},{"start":896.996,"end":914.214,"text":"因為我們還有去前往相關的人權相關的人權的單位所以除了這個向下還有哪一個向下還有人權的部分經費有來支應什麼叫人權的部分經費因為有關這一次的所以你是從其他的預算科目雲芝過來是不是"},{"start":916.084,"end":929.507,"text":"我跟黃委員報告這次去有兩個目的第一個參加這個會議剛剛目的你已經說過了嘛現在我的問題很具體啊請你們針對問題回答除了這個定期會議的向下以外其他的錢從哪裡支的其他問題從哪裡支的一個就是這一項預算另外一個是人權相關的編列的預算人權相關編列的預算在哪裡因為我要審預算嘛我要負責任的隊嘛"},{"start":945.598,"end":961.767,"text":"我要負責的對從哪一個向下支的人權的訪視考察部分編了400萬人權的訪視考察對人權訪視考察播了多少錢來支應這一次的國外訪查60萬播了60萬過來嘛這個是去奧地利嘛這個是去荷蘭嘛"},{"start":973.206,"end":1001.161,"text":"我們出國巡查最後的結論跟成果我的態度一樣啦我邀請所有的公民上去看監察院的報告看完了這個報告以後再跟大家講覺得這個錢值得或不值得監察院有監察院的說法秘書長你剛也充分辯護了我相信大家都聽得到啦來接下來今年的花200萬到國外進行專案式訪視調查要去哪裡"},{"start":1004.451,"end":1029.893,"text":"我們要審預算我沒辦法這樣抽象的審啊你說你們要到國外進行專案式訪視調查要兩百萬嘛去哪裡今年還沒有規劃今年還沒有規劃114年的部分我們通常這個部分是看哪一個國邀請像今年度剛去完回來就是菲律賓那明年度我們現在還不確定所以你們明年這兩百萬要去哪裡你們不知道嗎我們目前還沒有確定目前還沒有確定"},{"start":1032.164,"end":1055.569,"text":"復國外專案性的訪視調查為什麼沒有納入派員出國計畫預算類別為什麼沒有我們都編列在考察的項目就是從一個項目沒有沒有沒有來來來來來來請你按照問題回答不要在那邊自說自話來看一下復國外進行專案性的訪視調查我的問題很具體喔"},{"start":1057.349,"end":1068.5,"text":"理論上法規上要納入派員出國計畫的預算類別表但你們卻沒有把它納進來藏在別的地方我的問題來了為什麼沒有納入"},{"start":1069.856,"end":1087.485,"text":"來,依據主計總署的編列手冊規定考察、視察、訪問、開會、談判、進修、研究、實習這八類是編在出國會議要計劃的那這兩百萬是沒有計劃的就是我剛才談過有國家的邀約這個我們就會參與所以沒有辦法在編列裡面剛剛你說主計總署114年度總預算編制作業手冊來看一下"},{"start":1095.543,"end":1123.689,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表就是我剛講的那個表是他裡面要放什麼東西來看一下填表說明出國執行其他公務出國執行其他公務也要編進去啊怎麼沒有按照主計總處給你們編制預算的表編進去所以我剛已經唸給黃委員聽了就是這八項要列入嘛那沒有辦法在這八項來來來請你看一下填表說明啦"},{"start":1124.71,"end":1146.755,"text":"各機關派員出國屬於下列事項要填列本表（加一秉定誤（誤的部分出國執行其他公務來我們再往回看我們再往回看來你復國外進行專案性訪視調查屬不屬於這裡所講的出國執行其他公務"},{"start":1148.343,"end":1155.262,"text":"防事調查不是出國執行其他公務這不是出去執行公務那就是出去執行私務嗎"},{"start":1157.236,"end":1179.782,"text":"出去當然是公務阿 那我們發在其他項目阿所以問題就來了嘛 來再看一下各機關派員出國計算計劃預算類別表編制的手冊寫得很清楚出國執行其他公務要編進去我剛就一張一張帶你們看就沒有在裡面嘛你們把它藏在其他的地方塞在這裡嘛"},{"start":1180.842,"end":1183.284,"text":"來來來先停一下所以齁人權委員會預算的編列比較特殊啦人權委員會要出國的不用把它編制在復國外"},{"start":1211.513,"end":1228.769,"text":"派員出國計劃預算類別表你的意思是這樣嗎沒有沒有我的意思我剛說明很清楚這我們依照主帝總之114年的規定另外沒有辦法列入這八項的就是其他項目我的問題才夠清楚啦這八項我再給你看嘛"},{"start":1229.898,"end":1242.192,"text":"各機關派員出國計劃預算類別表上面不是有出國執行其他公務嗎這個我剛已經說明很清楚了這是其他國家邀約我們國家不用出錢喔"},{"start":1245.896,"end":1267.777,"text":"如果其他國家邀約其他國家出權預算書沒有編我就不會問你這個事嘛明明就編在預算書裡面嘛所以其他國家邀約我們國家出權就不用編在裡面喔他們也有來啊他們也有來啊所以是互相交流人權交流是非常重要的事情我沒有說人權交流不重要但我的問題是什麼你為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡"},{"start":1271.248,"end":1288.895,"text":"為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡原來計劃性的在計劃性的我們就編在總表裡非計劃性的就是這兩百萬來再看一下出國執行其他公務要不要編在裡面我就問你這件事嘛現在喔為什麼主計總署在編列這個的時候"},{"start":1290.865,"end":1306.801,"text":"他要去定這個原則是因為什麼是因為只要有派人出國大家就會很關心要去哪裡做什麼事情一項一項把它列出來但我在看你的預算書的時候我看得很細啦我看得非常的細我看到這一項"},{"start":1307.822,"end":1313.147,"text":"來黃委員如果可以回到前面的你的powerpoint裡面我可以跟您說明來來前面第16大項裡面你要看哪一張"},{"start":1338.973,"end":1362.231,"text":"我請人權會執行秘書跟你講黃委員跟您報告一下我先問一下剛秘書長不知道但我覺得你可能會知道這200萬要去哪裡因為你是人權會的執行秘書嗎報告黃委員因為我們人權會的一些相關的訪視必須要預案那所以就是要看明年有什麼專案性的需要"},{"start":1363.111,"end":1379.785,"text":"所以現在還不知道明年有什麼專案性的需要嗎不好意思喔再請您等一下我只要跟你確定一件事情所以到此時此刻還不知道明年會有什麼預案要花這兩百萬對不對"},{"start":1380.806,"end":1408.658,"text":"其實我們大概會有一個方向但是什麼樣的方向跟大家說明一下我們目前的方向是有可能會規劃去亞太這個區域的亞太這個區域的哪一個國家因為我們現在可能比較不方便還沒有很明確的跟對方談判這是機密外交是不是這不算機密外交但是因為我們還沒有很跟對方確認所以是不是讓我們確認以後然後後續跟您這邊再做說明"},{"start":1409.658,"end":1430.287,"text":"這樣子啦 我不要占其他委員的時間今天我問的問題 我都歡迎秘書長或者是監察院的同仁用書面回覆那我也相信監察院的同仁可以了解 給我們的資訊又充足我們到時候在審預算的時候 支持監察院預算的可能性"},{"start":1431.707,"end":1458.423,"text":"我跟黃國昌報告包括您剛剛提到2023年義大利的部分還有這個明年度就是114年度這個兩百萬我們目前的計畫為什麼這樣編我會提供書面說明來就請書面詳細因為我善意的跟秘書長講對我也善意的回答我們立法院在審預算的時候如果我覺得這個錢沒有必要或是我根本搞不清楚這個錢到底是要幹嘛的"},{"start":1459.725,"end":1468.687,"text":"我們站在國會幫人民看緊荷包的立場公帑不能隨便浪費這個是我們卓榮泰院長的指示到時候再來進行審查我就是告訴黃委員我們會提出詳細的書面報告好那我們現在由於事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢沒有確定喔"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:24.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:25.550000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:26.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:32.937000+08:00","text":"麻煩秘書長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:32.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:33.937000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:33.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:33.398000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:34.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:45.531000+08:00","text":"我今年3月第一次質詢的時候有請教無償收受吸金通緝犯政治獻金的陳歐珀，我們依照政治獻金法開罰了沒有？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:47.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:49.867000+08:00","text":"這個部分現在因為正在司法偵查中，所以我們暫停……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:50.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:51.909000+08:00","text":"所以現在還在偵查當中嗎？對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:52.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:13:58.694000+08:00","text":"我們依照政治獻金法裁罰的時效有多久？5年。5年嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:13:59.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:03.618000+08:00","text":"這5年會因為在司法偵查當中而停止計算嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:03.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:04.259000+08:00","text":"應該不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:04.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:05.059000+08:00","text":"應該不會嘛！對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:05.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:06.420000+08:00","text":"所以監察院打算要等多久？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:07.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:07.201000+08:00","text":"我們在……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:07.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:09.283000+08:00","text":"如果偵查超過5年以上，就算了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:09.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:11.585000+08:00","text":"如果司法偵查結束，我們就恢復調查。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:11.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:14.487000+08:00","text":"是，司法偵查時間有上限嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:16.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:20.141000+08:00","text":"司法偵查時間沒上限嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:20.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:21.042000+08:00","text":"有可能3年嘛……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:21.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:22.042000+08:00","text":"司法偵查沒有嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:21.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:21.763000+08:00","text":"有可能5年嘛！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:22.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:23.204000+08:00","text":"有可能5年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:23.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:33.174000+08:00","text":"所以我們先確立一個原則，這個是對事不對人，從制度上面來講，第一個，如果有司法偵查的話，有關於政治獻金的裁罰……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:33.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:36.277000+08:00","text":"這個本來就不能對人，只有政治獻金才有對人……是啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:36.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:38.058000+08:00","text":"可以請你聽我把問題說完嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:38.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:39.058000+08:00","text":"是，好，請說。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:38.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:51.529000+08:00","text":"第一個，有關於政治獻金裁罰的案件，是不是有在司法偵查當中，監察院就會先停止，看司法偵查的結果，再決定要有什麼後續作為？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:51.529000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:52.529000+08:00","text":"是還不是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:51.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:54.451000+08:00","text":"對，這是根據監察法施行細則第二十七條。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:54.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:54.831000+08:00","text":"是還不是？是嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:55.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:56.252000+08:00","text":"是，我們通常會停止。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:56.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:14:59.334000+08:00","text":"好，是，所以所有的案件都是這樣處理嗎？對。好。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:14:59.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:10.582000+08:00","text":"第二個，但是我們在法律的制度上面必須要先思考一個問題，如果司法偵查超過5年，使得整個裁罰的時效都過去的話，那怎麼辦？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:10.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:15.445000+08:00","text":"我們會先釐清彼此的對價關係，如果有的話，這個部分我們會來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:15.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:15.645000+08:00","text":"要討論什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:18.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:35.120000+08:00","text":"你剛剛的第一個原則，第一個原則就是有司法偵查，政治獻金這邊不能動，要等到司法偵查結束，司法偵查有可能超過5年，剛剛我們也討論過這件事了，如果司法偵查超過5年的時效，接下來要怎麼辦？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:35.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:35.361000+08:00","text":"這是我的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:37.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:43.752000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員確定一下，就是你認為司法偵查如果超過5年，會超過我們的5年期效，對不對？是。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:43.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:51.713000+08:00","text":"那我們通常會先討論，第一個，有沒有對價關係；第二個，如果不起訴的話，我們就會繼續調查。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:52.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:52.334000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:53.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:55.174000+08:00","text":"如果不起訴，結果就出來了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:55.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:56.015000+08:00","text":"這個這麼簡單的問題……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:56.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:57.015000+08:00","text":"如果不起訴，我們就重新起算，就重新起算……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:56.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:56.915000+08:00","text":"你可以繞這麼久喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:15:57.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:15:57.655000+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你，就重新起算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:02.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:04.118000+08:00","text":"重新起算？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:04.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:05.359000+08:00","text":"從什麼時候開始重新起算？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:06.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:07.942000+08:00","text":"我請我們處長跟你回答，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:07.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:07.962000+08:00","text":"好，請處長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:07.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:08.962000+08:00","text":"黃委員，早安！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:08.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:09.962000+08:00","text":"因為這個有對價關係，所以我們必須先確認，如果沒有對價關係，這個案件就會回到政治獻金……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:09.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:10.962000+08:00","text":"這個我知道嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:10.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:11.962000+08:00","text":"其次，如果是不起訴處分確定，或者是無罪確定、緩起訴等等，這個案件確定是政治獻金的話，就會回到我們這邊，那行政罰法第二十七條有規定，從它確定以後開始，我們就再算5年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:09.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:11.929000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是現在我們就有關於5年的時效……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:11.929000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:37.988000+08:00","text":"對，被中斷……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:37.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:41.409000+08:00","text":"是從判決確定以後或是不起訴確定以後起算嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:41.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:44.410000+08:00","text":"無罪確定後，因為如果他……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:44.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:44.770000+08:00","text":"不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:45.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:45.991000+08:00","text":"不用無罪確定啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:46.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:47.951000+08:00","text":"不起訴確定不是也一樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:47.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:50.732000+08:00","text":"因為他如果確定是有罪的話，那就不是政治獻金……對啦！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:51.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:52.493000+08:00","text":"請你聽問題，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:53.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:16:56.874000+08:00","text":"你剛剛講無罪確定，我說不起訴確定，那不是一樣嗎？是。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:16:57.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:03.717000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是那5年的時效從判決確定或者是不起訴確定開始算……對。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:03.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:05.397000+08:00","text":"在之前的通通都不算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:06.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:09.899000+08:00","text":"就是中斷，我的時效不會因為這樣而受到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:10.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:12.700000+08:00","text":"你那個時效中斷的事由是規定在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長美延","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:12.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:14.120000+08:00","text":"行政罰法第二十六條。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:14.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:15.281000+08:00","text":"行政罰法第二十六條……對。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:15.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:20.322000+08:00","text":"你會等到不起訴確定或是無罪確定才開始起算這5年嘛！對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:20.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:20.643000+08:00","text":"好，很好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:20.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:20.803000+08:00","text":"請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:23.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:49.567000+08:00","text":"下一個問題，針對監察院的預算，大家其實都很關心，出國的旅費連年攀升，我們從過去這幾年看得出來，到了今年大概1,300萬了，秘書長剛剛的確是有說明，之前曾經引發軒然大波，去日本考察黑熊保育的意義在哪裡，我也看到了，監察院有發了一個新聞稿……","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:52.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:53.729000+08:00","text":"我們有一個新聞稿。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:54.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:57.190000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，有新聞稿做回應啦……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:57.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:17:58.190000+08:00","text":"我們說明得很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:17:57.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:00.351000+08:00","text":"說近年調查案件不少與自然保育有關係嘛……32案……對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:00.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:03.792000+08:00","text":"還有原住民文化，加起來32案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:04.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:07.433000+08:00","text":"是，這兩個加起來占你們所有調查案件的比例有多高？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:07.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:08.914000+08:00","text":"比例算不低，因為我們……是喔！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:08.914000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:09.914000+08:00","text":"是、是，好……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:08.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:11.735000+08:00","text":"我們調查的案件類型非常多，這個比例算不低。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:12.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:34.697000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下立法院預算中心是怎麼講的，立法院預算中心說，有關於動物、原住民族文化保存及權益保障，監察院所提出來的報告占同時期的報告比例偏低，只占1.2%，所以其重大性是否足以列為優先考察事項，有待審酌。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:35.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:45.666000+08:00","text":"兩個部分跟黃委員報告，第一個部分，這個是職員出國的部分，題目是由職員自己選定，第二個部分就是用這樣的數字來比較，我認為有欠公允，最主要……","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:46.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:47.448000+08:00","text":"那怎麼樣的數字來比較，你覺得才公平？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:47.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:51.386000+08:00","text":"剛剛你說比例不低嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:52.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:55.630000+08:00","text":"但立法院預算中心算出來比例是占1.2%……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:55.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:18:56.630000+08:00","text":"我說過加起來32案，加起來32案……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:18:56.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:01.075000+08:00","text":"我們先確認一件事情，立法院預算中心的比例有沒有算錯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:01.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:03.737000+08:00","text":"因為我們調查的案件非常多……是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:04.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:07.321000+08:00","text":"他這裡是從103年開始算起……是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:08.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:10.424000+08:00","text":"那32案不是從103年開始算起……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:10.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:13.727000+08:00","text":"是，所以你覺得他的計算基準不公平嘛！對。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:13.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:15.869000+08:00","text":"那你覺得他的計算基準要怎麼算才公平？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:16.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:29.498000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員報告，我的意思是我們的職員認為因為近年來這兩個議題加起來有32案，他們認為有討論的必要，所以他們選定這個題目，到日本……","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:30.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:31.419000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛在談比例嘛……對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:31.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:32.880000+08:00","text":"你現在在談數字嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:32.880000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:33.880000+08:00","text":"對，第一個，年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:33.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:35.862000+08:00","text":"那我們現在到底要談比例，還是要談數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:36.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:37.123000+08:00","text":"剛剛你說比例不低……比例……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:37.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:41.126000+08:00","text":"所以我就說按照你的計算基準，那個比例占多少？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:41.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:42.467000+08:00","text":"至少年度要一樣，要從哪一年算起要一樣嘛！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:45.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:46.973000+08:00","text":"所以按照你們的計算，比例是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:48.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:55.726000+08:00","text":"這裡講的2,612案是103年到112年，但這32案的比例不是從103年開始起算啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:56.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:19:58.150000+08:00","text":"所以按照你計算的，比例該有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:19:59.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:00.272000+08:00","text":"這個我們還要回去查一下，我們不是從這邊查……","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:00.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:03.154000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，你查完了以後，書面回復，好不好？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:03.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:04.094000+08:00","text":"好，我們可以書面回答。好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:04.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:11.439000+08:00","text":"你們寫說，以今年為例，考察的主題就是日本的法官與懲戒制度嘛！對。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:11.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:16.982000+08:00","text":"你們在為明年的預算捍衛的時候就討論今年你們派員到日本考察……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:17.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:18.123000+08:00","text":"每年都不一樣，前年是到新加坡……","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:18.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:20.864000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，是考察日本的法官與懲戒制度嘛！是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:22.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:37.496000+08:00","text":"監察院去日本考察法官彈劾與懲戒制度，這個報告我念完了，請問考察以後，對於我們國家制度的具體啟示、考察的意義在哪裡，可不可以說明一下？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:38.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:39.818000+08:00","text":"這個報告我全部都看完了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:41.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:44.901000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們同仁在全院也有拿出來報告……是。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:45.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:53.227000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們最主要認為有差別性，也有相同性，差別性與相同性就是彼此之間的制度不一樣，制度不一樣……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:53.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:54.227000+08:00","text":"當然制度不一樣嘛……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:54.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:55.227000+08:00","text":"對，但是有些他們的方式……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:55.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:56.227000+08:00","text":"我現在問的是最具體的，以實際的效果來講，對我國彈劾與懲戒的制度可以產生具體的示唆及啟示是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:56.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:57.227000+08:00","text":"我只問這件事，要不然去日本幹嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:57.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:58.227000+08:00","text":"這個我請我們參與的王處長來跟你回答，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王處長增華","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:53.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:20:54.088000+08:00","text":"報告委員，委員好！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王處長增華","start":"2024-11-20T09:20:54.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:21:18.806000+08:00","text":"今年我們去日本考察最主要是因為111年憲判字第9號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:21:18.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:21:19.047000+08:00","text":"這個我知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:21:19.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:21:19.507000+08:00","text":"我時間有限，我沒有時間……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王處長增華","start":"2024-11-20T09:21:19.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:21:20.507000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:21:19.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:21:59.887000+08:00","text":"聽你從頭報告到尾，但我可以負責任的跟你講，我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了，我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了，拜讀完了以後，我看你們去日本東京五天，第一天及最後一天扣掉有三天，第三天的時候有跑去處理他們有關於彈劾的制度，沒有關係，旅程大家都很疲憊，到的第一天要休息一下，最後也可能要休息一下，這個我都理解。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:22:00.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:22:12.276000+08:00","text":"我的問題很具體，你們拿今年的報告來幫明年的預算辯護，要跟全體的納稅人說，這個錢花的有道理，這個錢花的有價值嘛！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:22:12.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:22:39.316000+08:00","text":"那我當然要負責任的審查預算，我就要去拜讀，從這個報告裡面，你去了日本一趟回來，對於我國的彈劾制度、對於我國法官的懲戒制度，到底產生了什麼樣的示唆，示唆是日文常用的，一般通常我們在講的是啟示，對於我國國家制度的改革，從你這次考察以後的心得，具體的講，講兩點就好。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"王處長增華","start":"2024-11-20T09:22:39.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:23:31.091000+08:00","text":"是，我要說明一下，我們有去觀察東京都與它的國家中央機關公務員懲處部分，也有考察到懲處，包括他們的人事院及東京都的部分，另外，有關於法官的部分，因為他們的案件非常少，總共76年才10案，我們就可以觀察出來，第一、在日本有關於法官的懲戒是非常限縮的，是只有法官及人事官而已，那我們的懲戒是包括中央及地方的公務員，其實可以觀察得出來懲戒與懲處怎麼劃分，這在學界有非常多的討論，目前在修正公務員懲戒法的時候，也有非常多的一些修正……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:23:31.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:23:32.032000+08:00","text":"不好意思！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:23:32.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:09.319000+08:00","text":"處長，先請你等一下，我剛剛很耐心的在我有限的質詢時間當中讓你充分發揮，讓你充分發揮，告訴全體國人你們這次去考察對我國制度的啟示及示唆是什麼，剛剛你有沒有把這個核心的問題做說明，我相信所有透過現在的直播看到的公民，大家心裡都有一把尺，我不做評價，我心裡有我心裡的評價，每一個看完你說明的人，大家心裡都可以有評價。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:09.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:13.341000+08:00","text":"接下來請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:13.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:52.944000+08:00","text":"2009年我們立法院的總召柯建銘跟現在已經成為總統的賴清德說，監委出國巡察「假查案真觀光」要求刪預算，我看到那個時候柯建銘跟賴清德這樣的提案，看了非常地感動，所以我就要接下去看，因為有時候我看你們的預算書，那個預算書的編列真的滿粗的，是不是符合預算書編列的原則，我們等一下馬上會處理到，但我只是想具體的請教，2023年10月陳菊率團赴義大利訪查花了多少錢？2023年……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:55.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.184000+08:00","text":"10月，現在沒有數字沒有關係，因為這個問題可能秘書長沒有準備到，我們詢答要公平，可不可以一個禮拜之內書面回復？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:57.184000+08:00","text":"好，可以，我們書面回復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.265000+08:00","text":"可以喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.925000+08:00","text":"拜託，花了多少錢，從哪一個預算項下支出的，請用書面回復。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:56.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:57.925000+08:00","text":"我們一併書面說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:24:57.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:24:57.185000+08:00","text":"請用書面回復，可以嗎？可以。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:25.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:31.328000+08:00","text":"好，因為率了這麼一大團去，到底用預算書的哪一個項下支出的？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:31.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:34.871000+08:00","text":"我負責任地從2023年的預算書、你們編列的計畫、院長的出遊，我一樣一樣看。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:34.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:35.871000+08:00","text":"院長不是出遊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:35.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:35.192000+08:00","text":"沒有關係啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:35.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:36.192000+08:00","text":"院長不是出遊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:35.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:37.594000+08:00","text":"對，別人是出遊，但陳菊絕對不會出遊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:37.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:44.267000+08:00","text":"用字用詞在國會殿堂要小心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:44.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:25:50.940000+08:00","text":"我們一樣一樣把它說清楚，我去看了那個預算以後，我查不到，所以今天請你們用書面回復，等到書面回復以後再說。","quality":0.17},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:25:50.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:26:48.760000+08:00","text":"回來了以後，他的心得跟建議我看了其實是滿驚訝的，這麼大團的人去，院長率領了4個監察委員，還率領了5位隨行的同仁，這個考察團算是大的，這麼大的考察團回來了以後，我看到這個心得跟建議只有一頁，我看了其實覺得有點驚訝，但沒有關係，我也沒有要秘書長評價，我今天是利用質詢的時間把所有的資訊攤出來，所有的公民都可以到監察院的網站上面去看，監察院所交出來的報告內容、它所花的錢，是不是值得這個錢？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:26:48.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:26:50.240000+08:00","text":"我相信大家心裡會有一把尺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:26:51.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:26:57.082000+08:00","text":"接下來，2024年5月陳菊到奧地利及荷蘭花了多少錢？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:26:59.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:01.149000+08:00","text":"這個應該就比較新了，這筆錢你應該知道。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:01.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:02.149000+08:00","text":"這是今年的。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:01.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:07.673000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員報告，去荷蘭的部分是因為今年IOI的年會在荷蘭。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:07.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:09.474000+08:00","text":"了解，剛剛你報告的時候已經說了。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:10.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:13.297000+08:00","text":"對，奧地利的部分是因為IOI的總部在奧地利，所以我們去奧地利。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:13.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:15.238000+08:00","text":"是，這個你剛剛都說明了，所以總共花了多少錢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:15.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:16.238000+08:00","text":"然後也利用這個時間做一些人權外交，我們參觀了它的人權中心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:15.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:15.878000+08:00","text":"是，所以總共花了多少錢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:15.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:16.178000+08:00","text":"這個部分詳細的數字……兩百多萬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:16.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:29.019000+08:00","text":"兩百多多少？220左右。220萬嘛。對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:29.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:31.279000+08:00","text":"從哪一個預算科目項下支出的？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:33.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:35.680000+08:00","text":"參加國際會議相關事項……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:35.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:42.342000+08:00","text":"來，我現在把你們今年的預算……今年的預算是去年審的嘛。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:42.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:43.582000+08:00","text":"2024年的預算表出來了嘛。是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:44.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:47.563000+08:00","text":"我把它列出來了，跟大家講一下，這個錢從哪裡支的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:49.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:50.024000+08:00","text":"我請我們汪處長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:50.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:50.604000+08:00","text":"可以，來，請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪處長林玲","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:50.604000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:52.312000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個部分是從我們的議事業務裡面的國際會議相關經費這個科目，我們一直都是國際監察組織正式會員並出席的相關會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:52.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:52.852000+08:00","text":"來，你看我現在給你的預算書，有在上面嗎？有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:52.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.093000+08:00","text":"在第幾頁？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪處長林玲","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.393000+08:00","text":"定期會議，請您看右邊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.733000+08:00","text":"定期會議，參加國際監察組織會議？是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:53.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:54.334000+08:00","text":"指的是這個項下嘛？對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:27:54.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:27:54.874000+08:00","text":"全部都是這個項下支的？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"汪處長林玲","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:16.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:21.721000+08:00","text":"因為我們還有前往相關的人權單位……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:21.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:23.803000+08:00","text":"所以除了這個項下，還有哪一個項下？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"汪處長林玲","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:24.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:27.587000+08:00","text":"還有自人權的部分經費支應。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:27.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:28.708000+08:00","text":"什麼叫人權的部分經費？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪處長林玲","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:28.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:30.851000+08:00","text":"因為有關這一次的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:31.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:34.194000+08:00","text":"所以你是從其他的預算科目勻支過來，是不是？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:36.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:39.525000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員報告，這次去有兩個目的，第一個，參加這個會議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:39.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:40.525000+08:00","text":"第二個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:39.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:39.805000+08:00","text":"目的你剛剛已經說過了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:39.805000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:40.805000+08:00","text":"對，人權的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:40.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:40.805000+08:00","text":"現在我的問題很具體。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:40.805000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:41.805000+08:00","text":"人權的部分我們也有編預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:41.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:41.285000+08:00","text":"請你們針對問題回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:41.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:42.285000+08:00","text":"所以兩個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:41.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:42.626000+08:00","text":"除了這個定期會議的項下以外，其他的錢從哪裡來？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:42.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:43.626000+08:00","text":"對，我就是要回答……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:43.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:44.626000+08:00","text":"其他的錢從哪裡支的？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:44.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:45.626000+08:00","text":"我就是要回答黃委員的問題，兩個預算嘛。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:42.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:43.526000+08:00","text":"其他我問的是從哪裡支的？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:43.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:46.527000+08:00","text":"一個就是這一項預算，另外一個是人權相關編列的預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:46.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:48.047000+08:00","text":"人權相關編列的預算在哪裡？考察……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:48.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:28:49.487000+08:00","text":"因為我要審預算，我要負責任的對嘛。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:28:49.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:05.598000+08:00","text":"國外考察。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:05.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:08.580000+08:00","text":"我要負責任的對，從哪一個項……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:08.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:09.580000+08:00","text":"訪視考察的總共編了400萬。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:08.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:09.160000+08:00","text":"從哪一個項下支的？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:09.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:12.922000+08:00","text":"人權的訪視考察部分編了400萬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:12.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:14.823000+08:00","text":"人權的訪視考察？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:14.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:19.766000+08:00","text":"人權訪視考察撥了多少錢來支應這一次的國外訪查？60萬。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:19.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:20.006000+08:00","text":"撥了60萬過來嘛。對。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:20.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:20.407000+08:00","text":"好，這個是去奧地利嘛？是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:21.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:47.434000+08:00","text":"這個是去荷蘭，好，你們出國巡察最後的結論跟成果，我的態度一樣啦，我邀請所有的公民上去看監察院的報告，看完了這個報告以後再跟大家講，覺得這個錢值得或不值得？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:48.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:29:53.137000+08:00","text":"監察院有監察院的說法，秘書長你剛剛也充分辯護了，我相信大家都聽得到。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:29:55.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:01.161000+08:00","text":"接下來，今年花200萬到國外進行專案性訪視調查，要去哪裡？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:04.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:06.833000+08:00","text":"我們要審預算，我沒辦法這麼抽象的審啦！這個……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:07.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:12.398000+08:00","text":"你說你們要到國外進行專案性訪視調查，要200萬，去哪裡？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:12.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:13.739000+08:00","text":"今年還沒有規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:13.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:15.381000+08:00","text":"今年還沒有規劃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:15.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:22.527000+08:00","text":"114年的部分，我們通常這個部分是看哪一國邀請，像今年度剛去完回來的就是菲律賓。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:22.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:23.808000+08:00","text":"明年度我們現在還不確定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:23.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:27.151000+08:00","text":"所以你們明年這200萬要去哪裡，你們不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:27.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:28.412000+08:00","text":"我們目前還沒有確定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:28.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:29.873000+08:00","text":"好，目前還沒有確定？對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:32.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:36.665000+08:00","text":"好，來，赴國外進行專案性訪視調查為什麼沒有納入派員出國計畫預算類別？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:40.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:40.926000+08:00","text":"為什麼沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:41.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:44.047000+08:00","text":"我們都編列在考察的項目，就是從一個項目……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:44.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:44.267000+08:00","text":"沒有，來。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:44.267000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:46.347000+08:00","text":"人權的部分只有兩個嘛。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:46.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:30:49.768000+08:00","text":"請你按照問題回答，不要在那邊自說自話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:30:49.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:31:08.480000+08:00","text":"來，看一下，赴國外進行專案性的訪視調查，我的問題很具體，理論上、法規上要納入派員出國計畫的預算類別表，但你們卻沒有把它納進來，藏在別的地方，我的問題來了，為什麼沒有納入？","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:31:09.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:31:19.961000+08:00","text":"依據主計總處的編列手冊規定，考察、視察、訪問、開會、談判、進修、研究、實習，這八類是編在出國會議，要計畫的。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:31:20.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:31:26.985000+08:00","text":"這200萬是沒有計畫的，就是我剛才講過的，有國家的邀約我們就會參與，所以這個沒有辦法編列在裡面。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:31:27.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:31:41.644000+08:00","text":"來，看一下，剛剛你說主計總處114年度總預算編製作業手冊，來，再看一下，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，就是我剛剛講的那個表，它裡面要放什麼東西？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:31:42.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:31:56.227000+08:00","text":"來，看一下填表說明，出國執行其他公務也要編進去啊，怎麼沒有按照主計總處給你們編製預算的表編進去？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:31:56.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:02.089000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛已經唸給黃委員聽了，就是這八項要列入，沒有辦法在這八項的就是其他嘛。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:02.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:26.755000+08:00","text":"來，請你看一下填表說明，「各機關派員出國計畫屬下列事項者，應填列本表：甲、乙、丙、丁、戊……」，戊的部分是出國執行其他公務者，來，我們再往回看，赴國外進行專案性訪視調查，屬不屬於這裡所講的出國執行其他公務？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:28.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:28.905000+08:00","text":"訪視調查……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:30.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:35.262000+08:00","text":"不是，出國執行其他公務，這不是出去執行公務，那是出去執行私務嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:37.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:38.236000+08:00","text":"出去當然是公務啊！對啊！","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:38.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:39.817000+08:00","text":"我們放在其他項目。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:40.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:32:59.762000+08:00","text":"所以問題就來了，來，再看一下，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，編製的手冊寫得很清楚，出國執行其他公務要編進去，我剛剛就一張一張帶你們看，就沒有在裡面嘛，你們把它藏在其他的地方，塞在這裡，所以我才具體地問你第一個問題，要去哪裡？","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:32:59.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:00.762000+08:00","text":"你又說不出來，現在還沒有確定，我有說錯嗎？","quality":0.056},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:00.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:01.762000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員報告，因為一開始人權委員會的部分就不屬於你剛剛提供的那個表……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:00.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:02.743000+08:00","text":"來，先停一下，所以人權委員會預算的編列比較特殊，人權委員會要出國的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:02.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:03.743000+08:00","text":"我們現在科目別……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:02.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:34.656000+08:00","text":"不用把它編製在赴國外派員出國計畫預算類別表，你的意思是這樣嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:34.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:40.021000+08:00","text":"沒有，我的意思我剛才說明得很清楚，這我們依照主計總處114年的規定。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:40.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:41.021000+08:00","text":"你說明得很清楚，是你自己覺得你說明得很清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:40.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:44.625000+08:00","text":"另外沒有辦法列入這八項的，就是其他項目。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:44.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:46.147000+08:00","text":"我的問題才夠清楚啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:47.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:57.387000+08:00","text":"這八項我再給你看，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，上面不是有出國執行其他公務嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:57.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:33:59.088000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經說明很清楚了，這是……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:59.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:00.088000+08:00","text":"這是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:00.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:01.088000+08:00","text":"其他國家邀約，所以我們沒有辦法列入……這是其他事項。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:33:59.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:02.172000+08:00","text":"其他國家邀約，我們國家不用出錢喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:05.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:11.081000+08:00","text":"如果其他國家邀約、其他國家出錢，預算書沒有編，我就不會問你這個事嘛！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:11.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:13.483000+08:00","text":"明明就編在預算書裡面嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:13.483000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:14.483000+08:00","text":"對，這是人權外交很重要的部分，互相交流嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:13.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:18.728000+08:00","text":"所以其他國家邀約，我們國家出錢，就不用編在裡面喔？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:18.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:24.374000+08:00","text":"他們也有來，所以是互相交流，人權交流是非常重要的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:24.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:26.856000+08:00","text":"我沒有說人權交流不重要，但我的問題是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:26.856000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:27.856000+08:00","text":"所以我剛才告訴你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:26.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:27.777000+08:00","text":"你為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:31.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:32.889000+08:00","text":"為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:32.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:38.471000+08:00","text":"原來計畫性的我們就編在總表裡；非計畫性的就是這200萬，沒有編在總表裡。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:38.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:42.392000+08:00","text":"來，再看一下，出國執行其他公務，要不要編在裡面？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:44.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:45.453000+08:00","text":"我就問你這件事嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:46.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:34:52.867000+08:00","text":"現在為什麼主計總處在編列這個的時候，它要去訂這個原則，是因為什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:34:52.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:01.336000+08:00","text":"是因為只要有派人出國，大家就會很關心要去哪裡、做什麼事情，一項一項把它列出來。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:01.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:03.778000+08:00","text":"但我在看你們的預算書的時候，我看得很細啦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:04.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:06.801000+08:00","text":"我看得非常的細，我看到這一項沒有，所以我才覺得很狐疑嘛！","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:06.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:07.822000+08:00","text":"那我今天也具體的問你，你們是先匡錢，說要赴國外進行專案式的訪視調查需要200萬，所以我今天請教你，請教你說這200萬要去哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:07.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:11.926000+08:00","text":"黃委員，如果可以的話，回到前面您的PowerPoint裡面，我可以跟您說明，前面第16大項。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:12.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:13.147000+08:00","text":"你要看哪一張？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:38.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:44.197000+08:00","text":"我請人權會執行秘書跟你講。好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:44.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:45.018000+08:00","text":"黃委員，跟您報告一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:46.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:51.923000+08:00","text":"我先問一下，剛剛秘書長不知道，但我覺得你可能會知道，這200萬要去哪裡？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:51.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:35:54.505000+08:00","text":"因為你是人權會的執行秘書嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:35:54.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:02.211000+08:00","text":"報告黃委員，因為我們人權會的一些相關訪視是必須要遇案，所以就是要看明年有什麼專案性的需要，會遇案。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:02.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:03.211000+08:00","text":"另一方面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:03.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:09.617000+08:00","text":"所以現在還不知道明年有什麼專案性的需要嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:09.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:10.617000+08:00","text":"就是到時候會遇案，原則上也會有經過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:09.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:19.785000+08:00","text":"不好意思，再請您等一下，我只要跟你確定一件事情，所以到此時此刻，還不知道明年會有什麼遇案要花這200萬對不對？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:20.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:23.047000+08:00","text":"其實我們大概會有一個方向，但是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:23.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:24.308000+08:00","text":"什麼樣的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:24.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:25.208000+08:00","text":"跟大家說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:27.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:33.011000+08:00","text":"我們目前的方向是有可能會規劃去亞太這個區域的國家，然後針對他們的……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:33.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:35.632000+08:00","text":"亞太這個區域的哪一個國家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:37.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:40.374000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在可能比較不方便，還沒有很明確的跟對方談成……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:40.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:41.495000+08:00","text":"這是機密外交，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄒執行秘書筱涵","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:42.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:48.638000+08:00","text":"這不算機密外交，但是因為我們還沒有跟對方確認，所以是不是讓我們確認以後，然後後續跟您這邊再做說明？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:49.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:36:49.778000+08:00","text":"這樣子啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:36:50.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:10.267000+08:00","text":"我不要占其他委員的時間，今天我問的問題，我都歡迎秘書長或者是監察院的同仁用書面回復，我也相信監察院的同仁可以了解，給我們的資訊越充足，我們到時候在審預算的時候，支持監察院預算的可能性就會越高。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:11.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:24.095000+08:00","text":"我跟黃委員報告，包括您剛剛提到2023年加拿大的部分，還有明（114）年度這個200萬，我們目前的計畫、為什麼這樣編，我會提供書面說明。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:25.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:28.797000+08:00","text":"就請書面詳細，因為我善意的跟秘書長講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:28.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:29.438000+08:00","text":"對，我也善意的回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:29.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:45.886000+08:00","text":"我們立法院在審預算的時候，如果我覺得這個錢沒有必要，或是我根本搞不清楚這個錢到底是要幹嘛的，我們站在國會幫人民看緊荷包的立場，公帑不能隨便浪費，這個是卓榮泰院長的指示……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:45.886000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:46.886000+08:00","text":"這個我們尊重，我們沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員國昌","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:46.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:46.347000+08:00","text":"到時候再來進行審查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李秘書長俊俋","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:46.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:47.267000+08:00","text":"我就是告訴黃委員，我們會提出詳細的書面報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:47.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:48.547000+08:00","text":"由於議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢，沒有確定，現在我們先確定議事錄。","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:49.047000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:54.761286+08:00","text":"請問各位委員，上次的會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:55.061286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:37:57.918429+08:00","text":"（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T09:37:58.218429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T09:38:01.361286+08:00","text":"下一位請陳俊宇委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：麻煩秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好。我今年3月第一次質詢的時候有請教無償收受吸金通緝犯政治獻金的陳歐珀，我們依照政治獻金法開罰了沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分現在因為正在司法偵查中，所以我們暫停……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在還在偵查當中嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我們依照政治獻金法裁罰的時效有多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：5年。"],["黃委員國昌：5年嘛！這5年會因為在司法偵查當中而停止計算嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：應該不會。"],["黃委員國昌：應該不會嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：所以監察院打算要等多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們在……"],["黃委員國昌：如果偵查超過5年以上，就算了？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果司法偵查結束，我們就恢復調查。"],["黃委員國昌：是，司法偵查時間有上限嗎？司法偵查時間沒上限嘛！有可能3年嘛……"],["李秘書長俊俋：司法偵查沒有嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：有可能5年嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：有可能5年。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們先確立一個原則，這個是對事不對人，從制度上面來講，第一個，如果有司法偵查的話，有關於政治獻金的裁罰……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個本來就不能對人，只有政治獻金才有對人……"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！可以請你聽我把問題說完嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，好，請說。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，有關於政治獻金裁罰的案件，是不是有在司法偵查當中，監察院就會先停止，看司法偵查的結果，再決定要有什麼後續作為？是還不是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，這是根據監察法施行細則第二十七條。"],["黃委員國昌：是還不是？是嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我們通常會停止。"],["黃委員國昌：好，是，所以所有的案件都是這樣處理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個，但是我們在法律的制度上面必須要先思考一個問題，如果司法偵查超過5年，使得整個裁罰的時效都過去的話，那怎麼辦？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們會先釐清彼此的對價關係，如果有的話，這個部分我們會來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：要討論什麼？你剛剛的第一個原則，第一個原則就是有司法偵查，政治獻金這邊不能動，要等到司法偵查結束，司法偵查有可能超過5年，剛剛我們也討論過這件事了，如果司法偵查超過5年的時效，接下來要怎麼辦？這是我的問題。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員確定一下，就是你認為司法偵查如果超過5年，會超過我們的5年期效，對不對？"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：那我們通常會先討論，第一個，有沒有對價關係；第二個，如果不起訴的話，我們就會繼續調查。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啊！如果不起訴，結果就出來了嘛！這個這麼簡單的問題……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果不起訴，我們就重新起算，就重新起算……"],["黃委員國昌：你可以繞這麼久喔！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我現在告訴你，就重新起算嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：重新起算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：從什麼時候開始重新起算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我請我們處長跟你回答，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好，請處長。"],["陳處長美延：黃委員，早安！因為這個有對價關係，所以我們必須先確認，如果沒有對價關係，這個案件就會回到政治獻金……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道嘛！"],["陳處長美延：其次，如果是不起訴處分確定，或者是無罪確定、緩起訴等等，這個案件確定是政治獻金的話，就會回到我們這邊，那行政罰法第二十七條有規定，從它確定以後開始，我們就再算5年……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是現在我們就有關於5年的時效……"],["陳處長美延：對，被中斷……"],["黃委員國昌：是從判決確定以後或是不起訴確定以後起算嘛！"],["陳處長美延：無罪確定後，因為如果他……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！不用無罪確定啊！不起訴確定不是也一樣嗎？"],["陳處長美延：因為他如果確定是有罪的話，那就不是政治獻金……"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！請你聽問題，好不好？你剛剛講無罪確定，我說不起訴確定，那不是一樣嗎？"],["陳處長美延：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是那5年的時效從判決確定或者是不起訴確定開始算……"],["陳處長美延：對。"],["黃委員國昌：在之前的通通都不算？"],["陳處長美延：就是中斷，我的時效不會因為這樣而受到……"],["黃委員國昌：你那個時效中斷的事由是規定在哪裡？"],["陳處長美延：行政罰法第二十六條。"],["黃委員國昌：行政罰法第二十六條……"],["陳處長美延：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你會等到不起訴確定或是無罪確定才開始起算這5年嘛！"],["陳處長美延：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，很好！請秘書長。","下一個問題，針對監察院的預算，大家其實都很關心，出國的旅費連年攀升，我們從過去這幾年看得出來，到了今年大概1,300萬了，秘書長剛剛的確是有說明，之前曾經引發軒然大波，去日本考察黑熊保育的意義在哪裡，我也看到了，監察院有發了一個新聞稿……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們有一個新聞稿。"],["黃委員國昌：對、對、對，有新聞稿做回應啦……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們說明得很清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：說近年調查案件不少與自然保育有關係嘛……"],["李秘書長俊俋：32案……"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["李秘書長俊俋：還有原住民文化，加起來32案。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這兩個加起來占你們所有調查案件的比例有多高？"],["李秘書長俊俋：比例算不低，因為我們……"],["黃委員國昌：是喔！是、是，好……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們調查的案件類型非常多，這個比例算不低。"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下立法院預算中心是怎麼講的，立法院預算中心說，有關於動物、原住民族文化保存及權益保障，監察院所提出來的報告占同時期的報告比例偏低，只占1.2%，所以其重大性是否足以列為優先考察事項，有待審酌。"],["李秘書長俊俋：兩個部分跟黃委員報告，第一個部分，這個是職員出國的部分，題目是由職員自己選定，第二個部分就是用這樣的數字來比較，我認為有欠公允，最主要……"],["黃委員國昌：那怎麼樣的數字來比較，你覺得才公平？剛剛你說比例不低嘛！但立法院預算中心算出來比例是占1.2%……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我說過加起來32案，加起來32案……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先確認一件事情，立法院預算中心的比例有沒有算錯？"],["李秘書長俊俋：因為我們調查的案件非常多……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：他這裡是從103年開始算起……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：那32案不是從103年開始算起……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你覺得他的計算基準不公平嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得他的計算基準要怎麼算才公平？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員報告，我的意思是我們的職員認為因為近年來這兩個議題加起來有32案，他們認為有討論的必要，所以他們選定這個題目，到日本……"],["黃委員國昌：我們剛剛在談比例嘛……"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在在談數字嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，第一個，年……"],["黃委員國昌：那我們現在到底要談比例，還是要談數字？剛剛你說比例不低……"],["李秘書長俊俋：比例……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就說按照你的計算基準，那個比例占多少？"],["李秘書長俊俋：至少年度要一樣，要從哪一年算起要一樣嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照你們的計算，比例是多少？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這裡講的2,612案是103年到112年，但這32案的比例不是從103年開始起算啦！"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照你計算的，比例該有多少？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們還要回去查一下，我們不是從這邊查……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係，你查完了以後，書面回復，好不好？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，我們可以書面回答。"],["黃委員國昌：好。你們寫說，以今年為例，考察的主題就是日本的法官與懲戒制度嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在為明年的預算捍衛的時候就討論今年你們派員到日本考察……"],["李秘書長俊俋：每年都不一樣，前年是到新加坡……"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，是考察日本的法官與懲戒制度嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：監察院去日本考察法官彈劾與懲戒制度，這個報告我念完了，請問考察以後，對於我們國家制度的具體啟示、考察的意義在哪裡，可不可以說明一下？這個報告我全部都看完了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分，我們同仁在全院也有拿出來報告……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分，我們最主要認為有差別性，也有相同性，差別性與相同性就是彼此之間的制度不一樣，制度不一樣……"],["黃委員國昌：當然制度不一樣嘛……"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，但是有些他們的方式……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問的是最具體的，以實際的效果來講，對我國彈劾與懲戒的制度可以產生具體的示唆及啟示是什麼？我只問這件事，要不然去日本幹嘛？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我請我們參與的王處長來跟你回答，好不好？"],["王處長增華：報告委員，委員好！今年我們去日本考察最主要是因為111年憲判字第9號……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道啦！我時間有限，我沒有時間……"],["王處長增華：是、是、是。"],["黃委員國昌：聽你從頭報告到尾，但我可以負責任的跟你講，我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了，我從頭到尾全部拜讀完了，拜讀完了以後，我看你們去日本東京五天，第一天及最後一天扣掉有三天，第三天的時候有跑去處理他們有關於彈劾的制度，沒有關係，旅程大家都很疲憊，到的第一天要休息一下，最後也可能要休息一下，這個我都理解。我的問題很具體，你們拿今年的報告來幫明年的預算辯護，要跟全體的納稅人說，這個錢花的有道理，這個錢花的有價值嘛！那我當然要負責任的審查預算，我就要去拜讀，從這個報告裡面，你去了日本一趟回來，對於我國的彈劾制度、對於我國法官的懲戒制度，到底產生了什麼樣的示唆，示唆是日文常用的，一般通常我們在講的是啟示，對於我國國家制度的改革，從你這次考察以後的心得，具體的講，講兩點就好。"],["王處長增華：是，我要說明一下，我們有去觀察東京都與它的國家中央機關公務員懲處部分，也有考察到懲處，包括他們的人事院及東京都的部分，另外，有關於法官的部分，因為他們的案件非常少，總共76年才10案，我們就可以觀察出來，第一、在日本有關於法官的懲戒是非常限縮的，是只有法官及人事官而已，那我們的懲戒是包括中央及地方的公務員，其實可以觀察得出來懲戒與懲處怎麼劃分，這在學界有非常多的討論，目前在修正公務員懲戒法的時候，也有非常多的一些修正……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思！處長，先請你等一下，我剛剛很耐心的在我有限的質詢時間當中讓你充分發揮，讓你充分發揮，告訴全體國人你們這次去考察對我國制度的啟示及示唆是什麼，剛剛你有沒有把這個核心的問題做說明，我相信所有透過現在的直播看到的公民，大家心裡都有一把尺，我不做評價，我心裡有我心裡的評價，每一個看完你說明的人，大家心裡都可以有評價。","接下來請秘書長。2009年我們立法院的總召柯建銘跟現在已經成為總統的賴清德說，監委出國巡察「假查案真觀光」要求刪預算，我看到那個時候柯建銘跟賴清德這樣的提案，看了非常地感動，所以我就要接下去看，因為有時候我看你們的預算書，那個預算書的編列真的滿粗的，是不是符合預算書編列的原則，我們等一下馬上會處理到，但我只是想具體的請教，2023年10月陳菊率團赴義大利訪查花了多少錢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：2023年……"],["黃委員國昌：10月，現在沒有數字沒有關係，因為這個問題可能秘書長沒有準備到，我們詢答要公平，可不可以一個禮拜之內書面回復？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，可以，我們書面回復。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？拜託，花了多少錢，從哪一個預算項下支出的，請用書面回復。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們一併書面說明。"],["黃委員國昌：請用書面回復，可以嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，因為率了這麼一大團去，到底用預算書的哪一個項下支出的？我負責任地從2023年的預算書、你們編列的計畫、院長的出遊，我一樣一樣看。"],["李秘書長俊俋：院長不是出遊。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：院長不是出遊。"],["黃委員國昌：對，別人是出遊，但陳菊絕對不會出遊。"],["李秘書長俊俋：用字用詞在國會殿堂要小心。"],["黃委員國昌：我們一樣一樣把它說清楚，我去看了那個預算以後，我查不到，所以今天請你們用書面回復，等到書面回復以後再說。回來了以後，他的心得跟建議我看了其實是滿驚訝的，這麼大團的人去，院長率領了4個監察委員，還率領了5位隨行的同仁，這個考察團算是大的，這麼大的考察團回來了以後，我看到這個心得跟建議只有一頁，我看了其實覺得有點驚訝，但沒有關係，我也沒有要秘書長評價，我今天是利用質詢的時間把所有的資訊攤出來，所有的公民都可以到監察院的網站上面去看，監察院所交出來的報告內容、它所花的錢，是不是值得這個錢？我相信大家心裡會有一把尺。","接下來，2024年5月陳菊到奧地利及荷蘭花了多少錢？這個應該就比較新了，這筆錢你應該知道。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是今年的。"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員報告，去荷蘭的部分是因為今年IOI的年會在荷蘭。"],["黃委員國昌：了解，剛剛你報告的時候已經說了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，奧地利的部分是因為IOI的總部在奧地利，所以我們去奧地利。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個你剛剛都說明了，所以總共花了多少錢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：然後也利用這個時間做一些人權外交，我們參觀了它的人權中心。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以總共花了多少錢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分詳細的數字……兩百多萬。"],["黃委員國昌：兩百多多少？"],["李秘書長俊俋：220左右。"],["黃委員國昌：220萬嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：從哪一個預算科目項下支出的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：參加國際會議相關事項……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我現在把你們今年的預算……今年的預算是去年審的嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：2024年的預算表出來了嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我把它列出來了，跟大家講一下，這個錢從哪裡支的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我請我們汪處長。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，來，請。"],["汪處長林玲：跟委員說明，這個部分是從我們的議事業務裡面的國際會議相關經費這個科目，我們一直都是國際監察組織正式會員並出席的相關會議……"],["黃委員國昌：來，你看我現在給你的預算書，有在上面嗎？"],["汪處長林玲：有。"],["黃委員國昌：在第幾頁？"],["汪處長林玲：定期會議，請您看右邊。"],["黃委員國昌：定期會議，參加國際監察組織會議？"],["汪處長林玲：是的。"],["黃委員國昌：指的是這個項下嘛？"],["汪處長林玲：對。"],["黃委員國昌：全部都是這個項下支的？"],["汪處長林玲：因為我們還有前往相關的人權單位……"],["黃委員國昌：所以除了這個項下，還有哪一個項下？"],["汪處長林玲：還有自人權的部分經費支應。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼叫人權的部分經費？"],["汪處長林玲：因為有關這一次的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你是從其他的預算科目勻支過來，是不是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員報告，這次去有兩個目的，第一個，參加這個會議。第二個……"],["黃委員國昌：目的你剛剛已經說過了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，人權的部分……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我的問題很具體。"],["李秘書長俊俋：人權的部分我們也有編預算。"],["黃委員國昌：請你們針對問題回答。"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以兩個……"],["黃委員國昌：除了這個定期會議的項下以外，其他的錢從哪裡來？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我就是要回答……"],["黃委員國昌：其他的錢從哪裡支的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我就是要回答黃委員的問題，兩個預算嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：其他我問的是從哪裡支的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：一個就是這一項預算，另外一個是人權相關編列的預算。"],["黃委員國昌：人權相關編列的預算在哪裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：考察……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我要審預算，我要負責任的對嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：國外考察。"],["黃委員國昌：我要負責任的對，從哪一個項……"],["李秘書長俊俋：訪視考察的總共編了400萬。"],["黃委員國昌：從哪一個項下支的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：人權的訪視考察部分編了400萬。"],["黃委員國昌：人權的訪視考察？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：人權訪視考察撥了多少錢來支應這一次的國外訪查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：60萬。"],["黃委員國昌：撥了60萬過來嘛。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個是去奧地利嘛？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是去荷蘭，好，你們出國巡察最後的結論跟成果，我的態度一樣啦，我邀請所有的公民上去看監察院的報告，看完了這個報告以後再跟大家講，覺得這個錢值得或不值得？監察院有監察院的說法，秘書長你剛剛也充分辯護了，我相信大家都聽得到。","接下來，今年花200萬到國外進行專案性訪視調查，要去哪裡？我們要審預算，我沒辦法這麼抽象的審啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個……"],["黃委員國昌：你說你們要到國外進行專案性訪視調查，要200萬，去哪裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：今年還沒有規劃。"],["黃委員國昌：今年還沒有規劃？"],["李秘書長俊俋：114年的部分，我們通常這個部分是看哪一國邀請，像今年度剛去完回來的就是菲律賓。明年度我們現在還不確定。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們明年這200萬要去哪裡，你們不知道？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們目前還沒有確定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，目前還沒有確定？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，赴國外進行專案性訪視調查為什麼沒有納入派員出國計畫預算類別？為什麼沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們都編列在考察的項目，就是從一個項目……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，來。"],["李秘書長俊俋：人權的部分只有兩個嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：請你按照問題回答，不要在那邊自說自話。來，看一下，赴國外進行專案性的訪視調查，我的問題很具體，理論上、法規上要納入派員出國計畫的預算類別表，但你們卻沒有把它納進來，藏在別的地方，我的問題來了，為什麼沒有納入？"],["李秘書長俊俋：依據主計總處的編列手冊規定，考察、視察、訪問、開會、談判、進修、研究、實習，這八類是編在出國會議，要計畫的。這200萬是沒有計畫的，就是我剛才講過的，有國家的邀約我們就會參與，所以這個沒有辦法編列在裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：來，看一下，剛剛你說主計總處114年度總預算編製作業手冊，來，再看一下，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，就是我剛剛講的那個表，它裡面要放什麼東西？來，看一下填表說明，出國執行其他公務也要編進去啊，怎麼沒有按照主計總處給你們編製預算的表編進去？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我剛剛已經唸給黃委員聽了，就是這八項要列入，沒有辦法在這八項的就是其他嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：來，請你看一下填表說明，「各機關派員出國計畫屬下列事項者，應填列本表：甲、乙、丙、丁、戊……」，戊的部分是出國執行其他公務者，來，我們再往回看，赴國外進行專案性訪視調查，屬不屬於這裡所講的出國執行其他公務？"],["李秘書長俊俋：訪視調查……"],["黃委員國昌：不是，出國執行其他公務，這不是出去執行公務，那是出去執行私務嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：出去當然是公務啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們放在其他項目。"],["黃委員國昌：所以問題就來了，來，再看一下，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，編製的手冊寫得很清楚，出國執行其他公務要編進去，我剛剛就一張一張帶你們看，就沒有在裡面嘛，你們把它藏在其他的地方，塞在這裡，所以我才具體地問你第一個問題，要去哪裡？你又說不出來，現在還沒有確定，我有說錯嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員報告，因為一開始人權委員會的部分就不屬於你剛剛提供的那個表……"],["黃委員國昌：來，先停一下，所以人權委員會預算的編列比較特殊，人權委員會要出國的……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在科目別……"],["黃委員國昌：不用把它編製在赴國外派員出國計畫預算類別表，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有，我的意思我剛才說明得很清楚，這我們依照主計總處114年的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：你說明得很清楚，是你自己覺得你說明得很清楚。"],["李秘書長俊俋：另外沒有辦法列入這八項的，就是其他項目。"],["黃委員國昌：我的問題才夠清楚啦！這八項我再給你看，各機關派員出國計畫預算類別表，上面不是有出國執行其他公務嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛剛已經說明很清楚了，這是……"],["黃委員國昌：這是什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：其他國家邀約，所以我們沒有辦法列入……這是其他事項。"],["黃委員國昌：其他國家邀約，我們國家不用出錢喔？如果其他國家邀約、其他國家出錢，預算書沒有編，我就不會問你這個事嘛！明明就編在預算書裡面嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，這是人權外交很重要的部分，互相交流嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：所以其他國家邀約，我們國家出錢，就不用編在裡面喔？"],["李秘書長俊俋：他們也有來，所以是互相交流，人權交流是非常重要的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有說人權交流不重要，但我的問題是什麼？"],["李秘書長俊俋：所以我剛才告訴你……"],["黃委員國昌：你為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡？為什麼沒有編在那個總表裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：原來計畫性的我們就編在總表裡；非計畫性的就是這200萬，沒有編在總表裡。"],["黃委員國昌：來，再看一下，出國執行其他公務，要不要編在裡面？我就問你這件事嘛！現在為什麼主計總處在編列這個的時候，它要去訂這個原則，是因為什麼？是因為只要有派人出國，大家就會很關心要去哪裡、做什麼事情，一項一項把它列出來。但我在看你們的預算書的時候，我看得很細啦！我看得非常的細，我看到這一項沒有，所以我才覺得很狐疑嘛！那我今天也具體的問你，你們是先匡錢，說要赴國外進行專案式的訪視調查需要200萬，所以我今天請教你，請教你說這200萬要去哪裡？"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員，如果可以的話，回到前面您的PowerPoint裡面，我可以跟您說明，前面第16大項。"],["黃委員國昌：你要看哪一張？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我請人權會執行秘書跟你講。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：黃委員，跟您報告一下……"],["黃委員國昌：我先問一下，剛剛秘書長不知道，但我覺得你可能會知道，這200萬要去哪裡？因為你是人權會的執行秘書嘛！"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：報告黃委員，因為我們人權會的一些相關訪視是必須要遇案，所以就是要看明年有什麼專案性的需要，會遇案。另一方面……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在還不知道明年有什麼專案性的需要嗎？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：就是到時候會遇案，原則上也會有經過……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，再請您等一下，我只要跟你確定一件事情，所以到此時此刻，還不知道明年會有什麼遇案要花這200萬對不對？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：其實我們大概會有一個方向，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼樣的方向？跟大家說明一下。"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：我們目前的方向是有可能會規劃去亞太這個區域的國家，然後針對他們的……"],["黃委員國昌：亞太這個區域的哪一個國家？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：因為我們現在可能比較不方便，還沒有很明確的跟對方談成……"],["黃委員國昌：這是機密外交，是不是？"],["鄒執行秘書筱涵：這不算機密外交，但是因為我們還沒有跟對方確認，所以是不是讓我們確認以後，然後後續跟您這邊再做說明？"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子啦！我不要占其他委員的時間，今天我問的問題，我都歡迎秘書長或者是監察院的同仁用書面回復，我也相信監察院的同仁可以了解，給我們的資訊越充足，我們到時候在審預算的時候，支持監察院預算的可能性就會越高。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟黃委員報告，包括您剛剛提到2023年加拿大的部分，還有明（114）年度這個200萬，我們目前的計畫、為什麼這樣編，我會提供書面說明。"],["黃委員國昌：就請書面詳細，因為我善意的跟秘書長講……"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我也善意的回答。"],["黃委員國昌：我們立法院在審預算的時候，如果我覺得這個錢沒有必要，或是我根本搞不清楚這個錢到底是要幹嘛的，我們站在國會幫人民看緊荷包的立場，公帑不能隨便浪費，這個是卓榮泰院長的指示……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們尊重，我們沒有意見。"],["黃委員國昌：到時候再來進行審查。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我就是告訴黃委員，我們會提出詳細的書面報告。"],["主席：由於議事錄剛剛已經宣讀完畢，沒有確定，現在我們先確定議事錄。請問各位委員，上次的會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏？（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","下一位請陳俊宇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":230,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-14","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","沈發惠","羅智強","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","謝龍介","林思銘","傅崐萁"],"page_start":171,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於監察院主管（不含審計部及所屬）收支部分（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310201_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}