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你們是合約嘛才能跟你們進行採購招標嘛 對不對要有這六大文件嘛 對不對董事長你要說清楚啦 是不是兩個事情啦齁 你講的是六大文件 這個六大文件是他要拿到電業當然相關執照的時候六大文件要跟台電取得一個合約的關係他不見得完成啦齁就是他要興建完成我們的合約好那他要跟你拿到合約到底要到什麼階段"},{"start":160.74,"end":177.842,"text":"他要拿什麼東西來跟你申請合約他參加我們的招標要參加招標嗎那要拿哪些文件才能參加招標這個有不同的階段有不同的規定那基本上六大文件是他要拿到他的電業執照的時候六大文件要齊備"},{"start":179.188,"end":197.424,"text":"當然那招標到底我要拿到哪些資料招標有部分的時間它可以候補就是環評當然可以候補嘛那哪些是一定要拿到你說環評跟地方政府的同意函可以候補但是投射計畫書要不要有要有嗎"},{"start":200.011,"end":221.784,"text":"要不要有還是都可以候補?跟委員報告他這個籌設計畫書這都是要送主管機關去審查的啦對嘛我知道就是他要跟你來進行招標的時候這些文件要不要備齊嗎?要不要目前為止不需要就是現在不需要所以都不需要聽我講完不需要籌設也不需要環評也不需要地方統一書也不需要然後咧然後發電廠的電源線引接統一行要不要?"},{"start":228.126,"end":228.306,"text":"發言委員：陳亭妃"},{"start":244.019,"end":264.819,"text":"但是要跟你們申請這個合約一定要把這些籌建籌設的計畫書還有我們的這個發電廠的土地同意書還有我們的這個發電廠的電源線引接同意函對不對還有我們天然氣的供應的同意函"},{"start":267.341,"end":288.373,"text":"參與投標要有這些文件對這些基本文件嘛起碼環評跟同意案你說那兩樣可以後補可是這四樣是基本一定要拿到的這是要投標的時候要送來但是他們還沒有參與投標裡面總是沒有人民的同意書嘛人民同意書是在籌設的部分吧地方的審核嘛對不對地方政府的同意書"},{"start":289.423,"end":303.576,"text":"所以,台電如果依照這樣,寶春有送了這個合約了嗎?沒有嗎?那個,我們沒有開這個,就我們開的標,他沒有來投標就沒有送這些東西。所以就沒有嗎?所以到目前為止是沒有的,對不對?"},{"start":304.777,"end":323.153,"text":"沒有嘛目前為止沒有來投標嗎來董事長麥克風講清楚到目前為止寶春有沒有來我們的台電針對我們台南的發電廠的這些相關資料來進行招標有沒有目前他們沒有來投標沒有嗎沒有投標好來部長很清楚他沒有投標也沒有這些相關的資料那請問他在開什麼說明會啊"},{"start":334.551,"end":359.584,"text":"報告委員 這個可能是在環評上面...錯了!他也沒送環評!他也沒送環評啊!他所有的資料都沒有啊!他在送什麼?他沒有送環評!來!部長!部長!土地同意書都沒有拿到了他是要設在哪裡啊?他開什麼環評啊?環評要不要土地同意書?"},{"start":365.871,"end":388.164,"text":"環評要不要土地同意書跟委員報告一下他這個說明環評要不要土地同意書你不要再給我這樣寫來寫去啦環評要不要土地同意書啦需要需要嘛土地同意書台堂都沒有同意請問他設在哪裡講不清楚說不明白他在開什麼說明會他在開什麼說明會部長這很嚴重欸造成地方的恐慌"},{"start":395.657,"end":398.438,"text":"他是誰在讓他靠我不知道但是他已經過分了亂開通造成地方的困擾第一時間在善化的時候也是胡搞瞎搞我們已經邀集相關單位去到現場已經跟他說了現在他開得更大從善化開到關鐵開到麻豆"},{"start":425.754,"end":432.79,"text":"所有的資料都沒有都沒有欸最重要的土地同意書都沒有"},{"start":434.807,"end":460.858,"text":"他到底要設在哪裡大家都不知道用騙的嗎?報告委員我想這個集會的這個過程那主管單位應該不是經濟部所以我們會要求這個地方主管單位來瞭解一下對現在都不是因為現在大家都在推皮球但是都說用電很重要那我都不知道難道用電重要就要讓這些電廠橫著走嗎?"},{"start":463.842,"end":488.135,"text":"來部長我再請教一下申報申報第一期欠地方21.6億的回饋金這很清楚了當時候在環評裡面是要求是要當時候我們整個收入不是淨值喔是收入我們售電收入不是淨值喔"},{"start":489.668,"end":509.606,"text":"受電收入這樣算起來就是21.6億的回饋金結果21.6億的回饋金現在一起欠我們這麼多你們沒有人敢處理現在居然申辦還可以用二期要沿用一期的管線再用50年沒有安全評估"},{"start":511.198,"end":539.695,"text":"也沒有給我們回覆也沒有給我們答案然後再來專案型電協金因為我們的整個電業法裡面有說專案型電協金是年度電協金的百分之三十完全淪為電廠的小金庫他在修理反對的聲音媒體都爆了喔媒體都爆了喔這一家電廠是某人的小金庫喔是誰的小金庫去查清楚是好謝謝陳亭妃委員來部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時37分）我請台電董事長。"],["主席：台電曾董事長。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後還有經濟部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我想我們一直都在關心地方的問題，在上一次質詢時我已經要求你們要去抓出這幕後的黑手，為什麼我們臺南的天然氣發電廠都可以橫著走？但是好像我們也沒有得到中央任何的訊息。我必須要正式跟部長把所有的資料再review一次，寶樁在臺南開說明會，我不知道寶樁現在是到哪一個階段，到處去開說明會，在善化也開，在官田也開，在麻豆也開，寶樁在開什麼啊？然後搞得人心惶惶，所有的里長都反對，然後問寶樁：請問你們要設在哪裡？不知道！然後勉勉強強說：我要設在善化。好，我們也去找出這個土地在善化的哪裡，台糖沒有同意，台糖對土地沒有同意。我特別去調了寶樁整個發電的申請表，包括申請設置的過程跟流程，我們現在來看，目前寶樁籌設的相關計畫書送了嗎？董事長，請問送了嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，這個不會是台電公司主管。"],["陳委員亭妃：不會是你們嘛！對不對？你們是最後嘛！要先有六大文件，然後才能拿六大文件來跟你們申請這個相關的採購案，對不對？就是IPP的天然氣這些容量的採購案，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，我們是民事合約，不是這些政府管制事項。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！你們是合約，所以才能跟你們進行採購招標，對不對？要有這六大文件，對不對？董事長，你要說清楚啦！是不是？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，這是兩個事情，你講的六大文件，這六大文件是寶樁要拿到電業相關執照的六大文件……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然。"],["曾董事長文生：要跟台電取得一個合約的關係，它不見得完成，就是它要興建完成，我們的合約才能……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那它跟你拿到合約，到底要到什麼階段？它拿什麼東西來跟你申請合約？"],["曾董事長文生：它參加我們的招標。"],["陳委員亭妃：要參加招標，要拿哪些文件才能參加招標？"],["曾董事長文生：這個不同階段有不同的規定，基本上它要拿電業執照時，六大文件要齊備。"],["陳委員亭妃：當然，那招標到底要拿到哪些資料？"],["曾董事長文生：招標有部分的時間是可以後補，就是環評跟地方的……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然可以後補，問題是哪些一定要拿到？好，你說環評跟地方政府同意函可以後補，但是籌設計畫書要不要有？要有嘛！要不要有？還是都可以後補？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，它的籌設計畫書是要送主管機關審查的。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，我知道，就是它要跟你們進行投標的時候，這些文件要不要備齊？要不要？"],["曾董事長文生：目前為止不需要，就是現在……"],["陳委員亭妃：不需要？所以都不需要？"],["曾董事長文生：你聽我講完，不需要……"],["陳委員亭妃：籌設也不需要，環評也不需要，地方同意書也不需要……"],["曾董事長文生：委員，讓我講完。六個文件裡面，環評跟地方的部分可以後補。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後呢？發電廠的電源線引接同意函要不要？"],["曾董事長文生：這些都要，委員……"],["陳委員亭妃：發電廠的要不要？"],["曾董事長文生：委員，您講的這些都要確定才會有，就是它要確定這些相關……"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛！這些都要確定後才能跟你們申請相關的合約，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：它才能投標，才能投標。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我說有兩個階段，在跟你們申請合約時，一定要有籌設計畫書、發電廠土地同意書、發電廠電源線引接同意函，還有天然氣供應同意函，對不對？這些一定要嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：對，它要參與投標，要有這些文件。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，要有這些基本文件，環評跟地方同意函你說這兩樣可以後補，可是起碼這四樣是基本的，一定要拿到。"],["曾董事長文生：就是它投標的時候要送來，但是他們還沒有參與投標。"],["陳委員亭妃：對嘛！要送來。好，但裡面總是沒有人民的同意書，人民同意書是在籌設時地方的審核，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：地方政府同意書。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果台電依照這樣的規定，寶椿有送合約了嗎？沒有嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：我們開的標它沒有來投標，就沒有送這些東西。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以沒有嘛！到目前為止是沒有的，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：它沒有來投標。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有嘛！目前為止沒有來投標。董事長，請用麥克風講清楚，到目前為止，寶椿有沒有針對台電臺南發電廠備好這些相關資料來進行投標？有沒有？"],["曾董事長文生：目前他們沒有來投標。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有嘛！沒有投標。部長，很清楚，它沒有投標，也沒有這些相關的資料，那請問它在開什麼說明會？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個可能是在環評上面……"],["陳委員亭妃：錯了！它也沒送環評，它也沒送環評，它所有的資料都沒有。它送什麼？它沒有送環評啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們主管的署長……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，土地同意書都還沒有拿到，那它要設在哪裡？它開什麼環評？環評要不要土地同意書？要不要？"],["郭部長智輝：要。"],["陳委員亭妃：要啊！環評要不要土地同意書？"],["吳副署長志偉：跟委員報告，它這個說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：環評要不要土地同意書？你不要再這樣繞來繞去，環評要不要土地同意書？"],["郭部長智輝：需要。"],["陳委員亭妃：需要嘛！土地同意書台糖都沒有同意，請問它要設在哪裡？講不清楚，說不明白，它在開什麼說明會？它在開什麼說明會？部長，這很嚴重，造成地方的恐慌，誰在讓它靠我不知道，但它已經過分了，亂開一通，造成地方的困擾。第一時間在善化的時候，也是胡搞瞎搞，我們已經邀集相關單位到現場跟它說了，現在它開得更大，從善化開到官田、開到麻豆，所有資料都沒有，都沒有欸！最重要的土地同意書都沒有，它到底要設在哪裡？大家都不知道，是用騙的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個集會的過程，主管單位應該不是經濟部，但我們會要求地方主管單位來了解……"],["陳委員亭妃：對啦！現在都不是，現在都不是，因為大家都在推皮球嘛！都說用電很重要，難道用電重要，就要讓這些電廠橫著走嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不會這個樣子。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我再請教，森霸第一期欠地方21.6億的回饋金，這很清楚了，當初環評時要求的是依據整個售電收入計算，不是淨值，是售電收入，算起來就是21.6億的回饋金，結果一期欠我們21.6億這麼多的回饋金，你們沒有人敢處理，現在森霸居然二期還要沿用一期的管線，再用50年，沒有安全評估、沒有給我們回復，也沒有給我們答案……"],["郭部長智輝：這個我們回去再去了解……"],["陳委員亭妃：再來，專案型電協金，因為整個電業法規定專案型電協金是年度電協金的30%，現在完全淪為電廠的小金庫，它在修理反對的聲音，媒體都報囉！媒體都報囉！這一家電廠是某人的小金庫，是誰的小金庫，去查清楚。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳亭妃委員，部長請回座，謝謝。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","羅智強","賴士葆","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","葉元之","林德福"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公\n司、台灣自來水股份有限公司（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}