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上會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1871.659,"end":1888.291,"text":"由於在場的委員不足3人所以我們議事錄就這樣不處理現在繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請公平交易委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢好我們現在請公平會理美主委進行報告"},{"start":1897.957,"end":1910.105,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、各位女士、各位先生以及公平會的同仁、政府部會的同仁、大家早安、大家好我很榮幸代表公平會來向經濟委員會提出業務報告我也趁這個機會來謝謝經濟委員會長期以來對公平會業務的支持與指教以下我請就公平會近期的重要業務分點來向各位提出"},{"start":1923.813,"end":1945.927,"text":"報告進行各位指教那第一點是在執法方面公平會的主要業務是主管公平交易法以及多層次傳銷管理法我們對於可能違法的情勢一向都積極查辦嚴處近年來我們查獲了重要案件包括電信業者、一半粉泥土業者、建築專業堅定服務業者"},{"start":1948.168,"end":1976.567,"text":"醫療服務掛號業等等多件違法的聯合行為案件我們也針對有線電視系統違反我們過去所加的結合負擔進行處罰另外不肖的美容業者假交友徵推銷以及不動產、不實廣告等等我們都疑與懲處確實維護了競爭秩序近期我們的重大案件查處的情形請各位參考書面報告"},{"start":1977.768,"end":1982.23,"text":"第二點是建構優質的數位經濟競爭環境因應數位經濟的發展我們在111年底發布了數位經濟競爭政策白皮書對於數位經濟下所可能產生的一些執法立場跟政策方向對各界來說明那白皮書發布以後我們得到不只是國內的肯定而且也是"},{"start":2002.977,"end":2027.737,"text":"在國際上得到肯定我們獲得了這個國際反托拉斯協作獎的評選那現在呢我們正針對我們在白皮書裡面提出的一些短中長的計畫逐步來落實包括修正不實廣告的相關規範包括市場界定原則處理原則以讓這個外界有所遵行完善我們數位經濟下的一個競爭環境"},{"start":2029.138,"end":2053.343,"text":"第三點是我們審慎審查結合申報案件近期我們審查的重要案件包括統一跟家福、遠傳跟亞太、臺灣大哥大跟臺灣之星等等結合案那相關的細節請各位參考書面報告為了精進結合審查作業我們在去年修正了跟結合有關的一些行政規章大幅的減輕事業申報結合的負擔"},{"start":2055.723,"end":2083.677,"text":"第4點是查查不實廣告在本會處理的違法案件裡面以虛為不實或引人錯誤的廣告最多為了有效規制不實廣告的行為我們有專案執行網路廣告查查計畫並且收集各類型廣告平台的刊登內容對於不動產、家電、3C商品等等常見的違法廣告如果有不實之餘立即主動立案調查同時也進行跨部會的機關合作"},{"start":2085.638,"end":2107.6,"text":"那第5點是掌握事況穩定民生我們對於民生物資的價格波動除了依職權依檢舉立案調查以外我們定期召開防制人為操縱物價專案小組關注民生物資狀況同時也在重要的節慶查核市場的一些供需情形另外也主動"},{"start":2108.44,"end":2124.61,"text":"提醒相關的工會業者尊重市場機制不可以有聯合烘台的行為同時也積極參加行政院的穩定物價小組以及物價聯合稽查小組跟各部會共同協力穩定物價第6點是輔導多層次傳銷事業本會"},{"start":2128.191,"end":2149.888,"text":"透過審視報備資料、辦理業務檢查、進行經營狀況調查以及宣導福島傳銷業者健全發展去年我們也導入一個發展的思維修正多層次傳銷保護機構設立跟管理辦法確實回應各界對於常保會的期待"},{"start":2150.669,"end":2178.242,"text":"第7點是宣導公平交易的理念我們持續運用各種管道來宣導公平交易的競爭性重要的工作包括辦理各式的主題宣導說明會提供交易訓練利用網路電視等等媒介提升各界對本會主管法規的瞭解那去年我們特別有一個新作為就是為企業客戶量身訂做一個G2B的直達車讓事業能夠"},{"start":2180.583,"end":2183.039,"text":"更貼切地瞭解公平交易法的相關規定"},{"start":2187.349,"end":2216.738,"text":"第8點是國際合作我們向來非常重視國際交流合作在112年積極參與各種競爭法會議跟活動我們也在這個重要的會議上擔任發表人與談人這些重要工作跟各國交流競爭法的政策跟執法經驗我個人在去年親自率團到美國加拿大跟兩國競爭法的主管機關進行交流奠定為"},{"start":2217.618,"end":2223.381,"text":"未來合作的基礎。以上是我解要的報告, 敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":2242.039,"end":2247.324,"text":"每位委員發言的時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記我們請登記第一位陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":2278.195,"end":2279.702,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委來請你主委"},{"start":2287.455,"end":2314.518,"text":"委員長主委我想最近就是掛號費的問題我想雖然我們現在已經把這樣的一個掛號費然後尊重各醫療院所那在這個區塊因為已經在短時間大家都已經要喊漲可是這個幅度跟比例我們也沒有辦法去控制嘛 對不對"},{"start":2316.837,"end":2330.749,"text":"特別醫院的官方會的高低是由各個醫院院所去決定對所以我們也沒辦法處理可是這個一下子整個開放之後然後所造成的有一些這個"},{"start":2332.35,"end":2333.231,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":2358.015,"end":2371.089,"text":"主委,我想最近應該我們接到的是比較多這樣的一個訊息所以也跟主委反映一下我想大家都是為了這個醫療體制更好"},{"start":2372.731,"end":2372.851,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":2398.689,"end":2399.61,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":2417.075,"end":2435.34,"text":"主委,我發現有兩個可能是目前大家會比較爭議性的就在23條跟24條一個不當正評跟營業誹謗的部分你們打算把自己的行政責任全部刪除掉對不對"},{"start":2436.493,"end":2436.653,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":2456.421,"end":2483.029,"text":"跟委員說明贈品是企業他賣東西要用什麼方式來吸引消費者的一個方式是阿可是這個贈品是有當與不當你如果今天連行政責任都把它拿除掉了請問你無法可管阿你今天要去調查如果民眾跟你檢舉你就跟他講抱歉你去做"},{"start":2486.071,"end":2496.396,"text":"我們公平會現在好棒棒喔我們公平會現在就是修法把自己的權利把自己的責任全部都刪除掉對不對好再來看24條營業誹謗之後我們呢就把這個行政責任也拿掉也就是說如果實質在營業過程我有發現我被誹謗的行為"},{"start":2513.82,"end":2542.598,"text":"那麼我也只能說不好意思你去告告刑事告民事然後把所有的權利交由法官處理然後呢我們公平會因為你把這個行政責任把它刪除掉了你就可以很直接講我無法可管好棒棒我們公平會真的越來越厲害了"},{"start":2544.127,"end":2560.63,"text":"就是把自己所有的權限責任全部交出去希望你們修法把自己權利修得更大的像那個多層次傳銷你們不願意然後現在你們本來有法可管的你們說我"},{"start":2572.059,"end":2583.774,"text":"要自費武功、自繳武器交出去你們以後發生問題不好意思你們自己去告刑事自己去告民事是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2585.404,"end":2610.542,"text":"主委委員我説明一下齁那您剛才關心幾點一個贈品贈獎這一部分齁雖然刪除了23條但是企業如果透過他的這個市場力量從事這個不正競爭或是限制競爭行為我們前面第20條還是有法可以管那這一次會刪除是希望讓企業他在決絕這一件事主委有法給你們你們都搞得自己這樣"},{"start":2612.163,"end":2633.655,"text":"民不正言不順了然後你跟我講說我23條刪除但是我20條還有你今天所謂的不當正評事業不得已不當提供正評原來的條文喔事業不得已不當提供正評正講的方法爭取交易的機會對不對這個這麼重要"},{"start":2636.803,"end":2637.604,"text":"24條就是營業誹謗行為的行政責任"},{"start":2668.385,"end":2681.206,"text":"對不對那我今天受到誹謗了我今天受到不當的一些引用好我申請要求公平會議要來了解"},{"start":2682.608,"end":2687.352,"text":"你原本是有的喔那當不在私權的部分呢也就是說當他今天只是小行為的誹謗你要用到那麼大的規模在行事然後在民事"},{"start":2712.25,"end":2728.975,"text":"公平交易法違反競爭秩序 它比較有公義的考量 營業誹謗在性質上是一個被誹謗的人權利的受害 所以即便是在刑法 它也是一個告訴乃論之罪 是要告訴乃論 當然就是由我本身 我受到誹謗者"},{"start":2736.437,"end":2759.931,"text":"我來提出嘛這是形式嘛可是今天我們所講的公平交易在一個公平競爭的角度剛剛主委講得非常清楚我們要求的是公平的競爭行為對不對當今天沒有公平的競爭行為我當然要要求公民會來了解啊那公民會了解今天在勉勉強強還有這個這麼小的所謂的你還有調查的責任"},{"start":2765.809,"end":2792.418,"text":"還有一些些控管的責任還有一些些讓他有些行政責任可以調查的這樣的依據結果你把這個依據都拿掉了你連這個都拿掉了所以未來公平會就無法可管了只要任何違反所謂競爭行為來跟我們公平會說的時候你們就說抱歉"},{"start":2793.078,"end":2794.479,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2815.683,"end":2815.863,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2839.212,"end":2854.509,"text":"今天公平交易法的過程當中公平會占了一個非常重要的關鍵跟角色你是主管機關不是把所有的行政責任都卸掉那麼如果把行政責任都卸掉那公平會就可以關門了"},{"start":2876.363,"end":2879.585,"text":"我們現在請第二位發言,邱盈盈召委發言。"},{"start":2898.103,"end":2920.68,"text":"委員長 主委早 主委剛剛看了一下您的業務報告 其實有一項你們過去查處聯合漲價的案子 有一個是處分宜仁綜合醫院跟天成醫院合意共同調漲掛號費的案子 我不知道這個案子的處理過程跟我們現在在談"},{"start":2922.982,"end":2926.305,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":2944.042,"end":2967.617,"text":"然後要去查處甚至要去開罰我想請教現在大家醫療院所大家普遍來講就是說所有的不管是薪資成本行政成本所有的費用全部是上漲所以希望能夠取消掛號費的上限這件事情衛福部也從善如流所以取消了掛號費的上限所以很多的醫療院所大概已經在醞釀要漲價"},{"start":2969.378,"end":2988.013,"text":"那衛福部馬上就跳出來說我要來看看你們是不是聯合漲價我不知道這個定義就大家醞釀漲價跟你所謂的聯合漲價你的認知上面比如說現在如果大概六成以上的私立的這些醫療院所都漲價的話這個算不算聯合漲價這跟你們過去採取醫院醫院跟天成醫院有什麼不同"},{"start":2996.32,"end":2996.54,"text":"主委請檢討說明"},{"start":3025.761,"end":3039.918,"text":"兩家院所彼此有聯繫講好要怎麼賬這是我們處罰的一個做法講好要怎麼賬其實某一個角度上來看如果說大家覺得說我就不要賬太高你免得有一家賬到了"},{"start":3040.819,"end":3040.979,"text":"委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":3056.698,"end":3072.602,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":3072.702,"end":3076.923,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3093.109,"end":3114.407,"text":"的了解程度會到哪裡?是不是會後能夠請主委您再給我一份詳細的報告還是您現在要請要說?會給委員一個資料那最主要我們在查的不是說他帳的合不合理因為帳的合不合理就是如委員所說的他去看市場的狀況自己院所的成本、金要各方面的成本所以我們觀察的是有沒有聯合一起談價格"},{"start":3115.828,"end":3136.067,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3136.487,"end":3161.797,"text":"比如說哪一些會是觸法我覺得可能你們要去說明一下啦可能有一些公會啦地方的公會或者是有一些比較友好的私立的這些診所大家可能會覺得我們就大家來談好一個價格不要漲得太多不要彼此銷價競爭那這個有可能就會觸法我覺得像這個部分我覺得你們應該是要去給這些醫療院所做一些善意的提醒"},{"start":3162.017,"end":3183.314,"text":"因為有些醫生他們可能對這一方面的法令並不那麼樣的清楚我們在上個禮拜已經發文給衛福部請他發函給所有的醫療院所注意公平交易法的這些規定主委那另外我們其實一直在談這些直銷齁這個大概您有看到齁大概是上個月的新聞雲林的政風處有一個女科員做直銷月入80萬"},{"start":3185.015,"end":3198.102,"text":"公務人員能不能去做直銷當然是不行那到底有多少公務人員私下去做直銷我看你們也很難查也很難管那這個大概是因為太強出頭了所以被查出來"},{"start":3199.673,"end":3217.78,"text":"那我也順著這個我也去買了一瓶這個叫做什麼活樂帶這個茶這個呢現在聽說他們已經下架了因為買講是講買不到原物料啦但我不知道是不是真的買不到原物料啦曾經有一個女子呢三餐狂喝喝到中風"},{"start":3219.401,"end":3244.583,"text":"那這個呢大概也不在你們查查的範圍之內我現在講就是說其實這一些直銷的產品常常都是我們講的一樣檢舉了一家你們才開始去查所以這麼多家的直銷公司到底他賣的產品合不合格他的營業行為合不合法其實你們很難查得到你們很難管我再來講一個"},{"start":3247.114,"end":3274.25,"text":"這一家叫元珍健康這一家你知道嗎這一家元珍健康現在的問題是什麼現在還沒有說他的產品有很大的問題但是他入會的方式有很大的問題他是有一點類似像民間互助會的形態你只要加入我抽多少錢然後呢你要跟多少會你跟了這個會之後呢你要"},{"start":3276.174,"end":3301.67,"text":"買公司指定塞給你的保健食品所以你看到這個截圖有一個女生說很誇張我今天又得標110會一個會是5000塊他一天又得標110會這算下來是多少然後呢利息是400到700甚至他每一個會要交1220的服務費給公司"},{"start":3305.396,"end":3332.783,"text":"這比高利貸還好賺啊?主委,像這樣的公司有沒有問題?像這樣的公司該不該查?像這樣的直銷公司有多少?公平會的掌握進度到哪裡?掌握的程度到哪裡?來,主委我跟委員說明,像這個緣真公司這家我們有到他的公司去查,他其實他的說辭是說他租給那個168公司去做這個"},{"start":3336.005,"end":3358.545,"text":"議會養晦的事情那事實上我們對於傳銷商傳銷事業他對的對他傳銷商的行為也要有嚴格的一個管控機制如果他對他的傳銷商沒有好好約束讓這個傳銷商從事跟我們報備的內容不一樣的話我們是可以處罰的原真公司到底是不是傳銷商原真是傳銷所以我們168公司又是什麼"},{"start":3358.905,"end":3376.714,"text":"一六八公司是呃我們去現場看他是跟原真公司租那個辦公室所以他跟原真公司是同一個地址所以我們他跟原真公司租那個辦公室那他的負責人是不是同一個人那他的這個原真公司的這一些加入他的直銷的人是不是"},{"start":3377.654,"end":3398.408,"text":"直接就被所謂的這個什麼168要求要去入會這一點你們有沒有去查?他是入會可以送原真的食品那這部分實情進一步內部是不是透過一個第三方公司去從事違反這個傳銷的這些行為我們已經立案調查這個看起來就像是啊入會就送"},{"start":3399.309,"end":3399.669,"text":"我相信你們在調查中"},{"start":3423.82,"end":3448.419,"text":"所以我要跟您談就是說我們每一次都在講這些直銷的東西齁直銷但是直銷的業者這麼多家當然我相信也有一些好的啦看起來不好的容易被點出來但是你們其實就是人家點一家你們查一家所以這一些直銷公司到底我們掌握到他們合法正派經營的程度到哪裡"},{"start":3449.76,"end":3474.219,"text":"我到目前為止其實都看不出來公平會在這一方面的進展所以每一次我們都在這裡問然後每一次就拿一個產品來問你然後你們就會開始去查這家公司到底合不合法比如說這個叫什麼紫茶的他說有微量的看他的成品上面其實也沒有咖啡因可是會讓人家喝到咖啡因中毒這個也很奇怪"},{"start":3475.86,"end":3493.728,"text":"那這個喝了呢都告訴你說促進代謝啦、增強免疫力啦、這個強健體魄啦我就覺得這種東西是非常非常的奇怪然後這個產品這家公司賣了一大堆所以公務人員呢就直接去加入了直銷一個月月入80萬比他上班還好賺"},{"start":3497.358,"end":3497.578,"text":"謝謝委員指教"},{"start":3524.078,"end":3535.168,"text":"謝謝,不好意思我跟趙偉借一點點時間趙偉講的這件事情就是一直我們在講的多層次傳銷大家都願意讓你管你們就是不願意管"},{"start":3536.516,"end":3559.586,"text":"你們就是不願意管我們要求法要設的更完整讓你們直接有所謂武器去直接做這樣的一個認定你們不願意我就覺得好奇怪到底你們公民會是發生什麼事了所有的立委都站在你們這邊結果呢你們自己要自廢武功也不願意尋找武器這才是最好笑的"},{"start":3569.387,"end":3594.424,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請張祺海委員發言謝謝主席請李主委來請李主委委員早早"},{"start":3596.075,"end":3614.835,"text":"最近人民蠻苦的電價要漲現在連掛號費都要漲了那重要的防線就是公平會請公平會這個防線一定要守住好不好我問你比較具體的今天早上通信的新聞雙北光是雙北台北市及新北市就有265家的醫療院所準備要漲"},{"start":3619.224,"end":3638.797,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":3639.619,"end":3644.484,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":3659.158,"end":3659.438,"text":"會,會去瞭解"},{"start":3679.437,"end":3694.668,"text":"去瞭解這些醫療院所,因為有一些是關係企業,或者科別,地理區域各方面都不太一樣,我們會來瞭解。那現在看起來人民最關心的就是健保會會會一或方。在社會學跟心理講就所謂破窗理論。"},{"start":3695.569,"end":3711.625,"text":"你現在這個事情查不好誰?200多家一漲,全國就漲了,人民真的很苦,好不好?一定要鎖住。那麼具體的問你,除了要去查新北跟雙北這個之外,你們有沒有什麼很具體的動作、具體的行動?除了你剛剛講的,請衛福部要注意之外,你們有做了什麼事情?"},{"start":3712.325,"end":3734.729,"text":"第一個就是說我們全省各地的這個地方的衛生單位都可以合作如果在他們所轄的這些醫療院所有這個不合理的或者是有異常的情況我們會緊密有一個這個合作的機制那當然我們同仁因為掛號費多少基本上是透明的網路上可以查透過這些機制我們也可以來了解所以科別"},{"start":3737.99,"end":3739.712,"text":"民眾感觸最深嗎?那是不是民眾會檢舉的話,你們這邊又怎麼樣?是不是有什麼...我們也歡迎檢舉齁,我們謝謝..."},{"start":3753.65,"end":3758.875,"text":"謝謝委員 我們歡迎檢舉檢舉獎金很高 這個只要讓我們啟動調查最低就從10萬塊起跳那我們會根據檢舉人提供的這個證據的價值分別有這個10萬到100萬、10萬到1000萬假設被我們查到超過5億以上那個獎金可以到1億 那我也在這裡跟各位"},{"start":3778.892,"end":3805.085,"text":"宣傳我們的那個檢舉電話2351 0022歡迎各界檢舉所以就是民眾現在去看沒發現國安會漲太高了或者是不合理可能有聯合壟斷這個行為對聯合漲價就跟你們檢舉你說最高的是一千萬就是漲價個別漲價不是我們去規範但是有聯合行為我們會查可是其實要注意到有問題他就當吹哨者嘛對不對民眾就可以跟你們檢舉了你說統管的是一千萬"},{"start":3805.825,"end":3809.769,"text":"我們這樣 你就堅固 我覺得合理懷疑 啟動調查最低就10萬塊 最高可以到1億元 如果他有具體的事證 我們分3級 有幫助我們調查的這種證據 我們10萬到100萬"},{"start":3823.524,"end":3840.93,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3841.03,"end":3856.396,"text":"公平會七所合作防止這個不當的漲價包括什麼最高的這個獎金有30%我們如果發到5億以上最高獎金可以是20%最高獎金可以到1億就是20%獎金的額度20%另外一個我問電價的問題這個防線也是很重要的"},{"start":3864.358,"end":3884.068,"text":"這個案子啊公平會是不是神助攻?齊凱這番聲音是在提醒電費要漲之前好好去跟民間的電廠檢討兩個9家民間電廠買電是不是買太貴?跟太陽能發生那麼多弊案到底裡面有沒有買太貴?弊案怎麼發生?要重新去議價公平會現在跟"},{"start":3885.393,"end":3910.301,"text":"九家民營電廠的官司現在公平會贏了是不是發委員因為這個當時我們是處分這個有九家聯合的行為那聯合這個違法聯合這個事實行為法院是認定的這部分我們是勝訴只是說我們每一家要罰多少錢法院認為我們這個罰款的認定還有問題所以針對罰款的部分請我們再斟酌等於經過法院包括"},{"start":3911.425,"end":3932.637,"text":"議員．"},{"start":3933.518,"end":3958.812,"text":"但是針對九家民營電廠在當時十幾年前他們聯合起來拒絕跟台電重啟契約的談判我不是針對這個聯合處分他不只是佔台電的便宜他是佔我們人民的便宜現在人民在反感的是什麼現在台電一直虧損就包括這也是造成虧損的重要因素虧損完之後人民要付錢上電價了結果民間的"},{"start":3960.073,"end":3976.109,"text":"業者賺了錢那公平會這個助攻非常重要你們罰了他錢現在經過長久的訴訟十幾年最近定案了最高行政法院包括憲法法庭都判你們贏嘛對不對就是他們有聯合行為這個已經是確認了那接下來要問的你們要罰他多少錢"},{"start":3977.148,"end":4003.298,"text":"我們目前是因為這個案子打了這個很久的時間目前還在行政訴訟當中那在這個法法的部分法院希望當事人能不能有一些磋商的機制那目前在這個訴訟法上在進行當中這個案子很重要是因為現在漲電價了所以本席今天為什麼問這麼重要的一個問題當初九家民營電廠跟"},{"start":4004.411,"end":4020.606,"text":"臺電講說"},{"start":4020.868,"end":4038.009,"text":"民眾來講是非常重要,臺電應該積極去爭取,現在不是急著漲電價,先去看看跟9家民營電廠,到底這個合約要怎麼定?如果一年,因為他被你們處分這個,一年如果有10億到20億,十幾年下來,有一兩百億再回到臺電,那就不用上人民的價格了,對不對?"},{"start":4040.414,"end":4063.992,"text":"你們神速攻我們現在呼籲臺電要去做這件事情那現在你們當務之急就是好好跟九家民營電廠弄清楚他到底要罰多少錢你們本來是要罰63.21對不對總共加起來總共加起來那現在改罰60.7什麼時候可以確定到底要罰多少錢我想這個要看這個法院行政法院這個處理的情形跟進度就是最新的進度很明確他有聯合壟斷的行為"},{"start":4066.305,"end":4088.2,"text":"這個聯合的事實是確定的,法環到底多少是還沒確定只是法環,那大概多久以內法環是可以確定下來的?我們的了解3月份法院會再開庭,那就看法院的審理的速度來看是怎樣。謝謝公平會的神速攻,這個防線不管是掛號費、不管是電價一定要守住,幫人民守住這個防線。好,謝謝指揮。"},{"start":4095.443,"end":4121.42,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言主席各位委員還有請主委請李主委鄭委員早安主委好"},{"start":4123.312,"end":4147.098,"text":"公平交易委員會組織法第1條行政院為維護交易自息以消費者權益確保自由與公平競爭促進經濟之安定與繁榮公平會在成立的時候或者是我們公平交易法制定的時候當時的這個"},{"start":4150.66,"end":4175.72,"text":"社會跟現在的社會有很大的不同尤其是在交易的這個部分像這個網路交易在當時公平會成立的時候或者是公平交易法制定的時候網路交易非常非常的"},{"start":4178.29,"end":4179.25,"text":"網絡交易到底現在是誰的業務?"},{"start":4179.25,"end":4179.65,"text":"在中央各部會誰主管?"},{"start":4198.297,"end":4207.914,"text":"委員,網絡交易的內容、類型還有形式是非常多所以要看看網絡交易它涉及的行為是什麼內容才能決定是"},{"start":4210.27,"end":4211.651,"text":"公平交易委員會組織法第二條這個掌理事項列了這麼多"},{"start":4236.872,"end":4263.675,"text":"當然這個我剛剛講了這個法也制定的時候你們成立的時候網路交易相關的各種的類型還沒有那麼複雜那現在是非常複雜這個日常交易這個在網路上便宜出售山西臭品然後吸引買家上購匯款拖延不給貨"},{"start":4265.905,"end":4268.286,"text":"有這種網路詐騙的就警察在處理"},{"start":4296.502,"end":4322.341,"text":"其實警察法或者是警政署相關的這些法律的這些執掌啊他們其實是協助協助協助這些他們在那個法律的用詞上他們是協助但是全部現在都是他們包括網路詐騙、煽導各方面都是他們"},{"start":4324.864,"end":4352.839,"text":"所以這個部分要怎麼樣去以時濟進因為畢竟警察單位還是有限他只能移送移送所以怎麼去解決這些問題公平交易委員會是不是去考量去思考要不要修法要不要更明確我剛剛提過了"},{"start":4355.639,"end":4376,"text":"維護教育自息與消費者權益當然行政院有消保委員會那有一些東西就往那邊事實上最後很多的前提前面都在所以這個部分怎麼樣去解決"},{"start":4377.786,"end":4406.036,"text":"這個部分是一個需要去因為台灣是以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家這個對台灣來講對台灣的人民來講是一個非常大的一個傷害那當然這個作為一個政府的主任委員行政院的主任委員怎樣去解決這個問題"},{"start":4408.488,"end":4433.826,"text":"這是我們國家的問題也許當初在立法的時候公平交易法或是公平會成立當初的人力各方面當然沒有考慮到這些了所以只要要怎麼樣去做要去做的話當然人力就可以去調的需求就是可以去調整"},{"start":4437.916,"end":4443.049,"text":"主委有沒有意願往這方向去考量、去檢討、去研議?"},{"start":4445.916,"end":4446.656,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4469.377,"end":4477.461,"text":"稍後修正了過去以實體為主的一些處理原則我想這都是希望能夠讓網路廣告的資訊能夠更精進當然我們應該要繼續努力"},{"start":4484.83,"end":4512.081,"text":"網絡廣告是其中之一啦但是網路交易他的很複雜的所以這個不能去怎麼樣去因應這個時代的變遷這個因為這個是非常嚴重在臺灣來講非常的嚴重他很多都是就是網路交易就是他就是交易所以"},{"start":4516.43,"end":4538.13,"text":"最起碼你們都在各縣市辦這些先導的時候也把這個納入在先導的範圍裏面這個如果我們看公平交易法第25條除本法另有規定者外事業亦不得為"},{"start":4539.747,"end":4564.113,"text":"其他足以影響交易自細之期望或顯示公平之行為。期望就是欺騙嘛所以你說他在網路的交易對一般人民而言他就是一個交易然後他是一個事業他認為他是一個事業"},{"start":4567.462,"end":4593.618,"text":"對,賣東西啊,不是事業啊,不是個人喔他說用事業的那個所以法還是有他可以去運用的地方啊所以這個部分是這個畢竟是一個目前在台灣非常普遍的一個情形而且還不分不是說一般的人民會被騙喔"},{"start":4595.233,"end":4599.015,"text":"謝謝政天才委員接下來我們請楊瓊英召委發言"},{"start":4632.721,"end":4635.964,"text":"謝謝主席本席想邀請主委來請你主委主席好我們來討論聯合龍站的問題那衛福部在2024年就這個月3月4號他公告了廢除醫療機構收取花費之參考範圍那取消了"},{"start":4658.703,"end":4658.743,"text":"公平會議"},{"start":4677.085,"end":4677.285,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":4699.875,"end":4704.516,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":4728.702,"end":4756.061,"text":"到500塊的一個條漲。那如果回歸於機制的話換句話說那人民的部分我們要怎麼樣保護他因為在今天的報紙上面已經披露了雙北有265家的醫療院所他要漲價你看到這個訊息吧那你看到了你認為你可以怎麼樣的作為呢"},{"start":4758.74,"end":4778.669,"text":"法務委員,事實上衛福部公告廢除這個參考範圍之後我們也很關心這個議題那基本上各醫療院所它的規模大小是不是關係企業它在這個調整掛號費的時候如果自己去決定這個是市場機制自己去處理但是如果"},{"start":4785.152,"end":4786.093,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會長"},{"start":4804.178,"end":4804.998,"text":"在什麼情況之下?"},{"start":4823.035,"end":4839.413,"text":"你們會有所懲罰的這個部分什麼條件因為要讓大家清楚希望能夠達成三贏的政策那你3月4日既然政府已經宣告了這個對於所有的民眾都會有所影響"},{"start":4840.234,"end":4861.581,"text":"合理合情當然給予尊重但是我們不希望惡意對不對那所以請問當政府3月4號提出這樣的方針的時候你們做怎麼樣的因應我們第一個我們跟全省的這個衛生單位會有一個合作如果他地方在執行的過程中發現有可疑可疑或是異常這跟我們來這個互相資訊交換之後我們會進入了解"},{"start":4866.883,"end":4877.078,"text":"你們主動出席還是等待縣市政府?我們一方面會主動出席如果有檢舉也會調查所以我剛才也跟各位說明說我們有一個聯合"},{"start":4880.154,"end":4906.507,"text":"檢舉獎金我們有聯絡電話2351這個我們很清楚我們希望政府你是公正單位第三中立單位我們希望是真正有所作為讓民眾都能夠安心一個合情合理的一個合法的情況之下我們不希望聯合壟斷目的是這裡因為這是政府的一個重大決策而是新的那我們也希望讓大家都能夠三贏"},{"start":4907.708,"end":4907.728,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":4925.896,"end":4942.969,"text":"全台灣都會都會因為有政策就是有需求那但是我們不希望是聯合壟斷的行為好不好是我們也發文給衛福部請他轉資所有的醫療院所絕對不可以有聯合漲價的行為好我們也希望你們繼續都導資來"},{"start":4946.972,"end":4956.379,"text":"我們針對於NCC所公布的112年度通訊市場的調查結果看到2019年4億7349萬GBR提升到2023年是9億2882萬那換句話說它的增幅是倍增96%在這樣情況之下呢2023年的台灣網路調查報告更"},{"start":4971.91,"end":4988.637,"text":"顯示出台灣民眾上網使用率占最高排比的第一名是什麼是影音娛樂是影音娛樂所以主委在這樣子的大型數位平台使用網路賺錢但是他不需要任何的相關的建設成本"},{"start":4989.958,"end":5004.772,"text":"那電信業者你除了評補的標金每年你要交交這個頻率使用費負擔這個普及服務打詐等義務那麼是否會造成新興產業造成整個產業間的不公平競爭請教主委"},{"start":5009.016,"end":5029.069,"text":"我想不管是平台或是一般的業者是不是有造成不公平競爭我們還是要看具體的內容他有什麼行為造成不公平競爭所以本席跟你提出因為它已經是一年的倍增所以這個產業我們是必須要去注意因為本席也是希望能夠達到一個公平公平的一個競爭好不好"},{"start":5030.49,"end":5035.071,"text":"最後一個議題在3月6日的媒體報導在北部我們針對預售屋的部分它因為各個客戶持分的總表共同的面積 揭示的內容是有誤的"},{"start":5054.355,"end":5071.86,"text":"但是業者在有無之餘他仍舊持續以錯誤的資訊來從事交易那如果是如此的話就會造成地震機關單位錯誤訊息的一個登載那使得購車的人購車位的這個案件購車位的"},{"start":5074.821,"end":5104.821,"text":"議員．"},{"start":5105.081,"end":5105.721,"text":"委員一方面是"},{"start":5131.673,"end":5138.136,"text":"所以本席告訴你已經產生這樣的現象你要碰到一個他不負責任呢你沒有辦法去管他的民事啊所以你就你的本位"},{"start":5160.146,"end":5174.657,"text":"你的職責你們可以再怎麼樣去讓不法者不可以再不法是這一部分尤其是不動產的不死廣告或者是欺網顯示公平行為向來都是公平會重中之重重中之重啊對啊但是還是一樣這樣做啊"},{"start":5177.259,"end":5196.535,"text":"因為本席提出您有所處分就表示確實是有這個問題那有這個問題你們是不是應該可以再去研議本席的具體建議就是說我們希望讓不罰者不要再不罰讓守法者可以得到一個公平的對待行政部門也不用這麼麻煩啊你們再去研討一下好不好再去研討你的罰金是不是太輕了去研討看看好不好"},{"start":5205.362,"end":5224.337,"text":"好,把研討的方案給本席,謝謝謝謝楊澄英委員接下來我們請張嘉鈞委員發言主席我想請主委來,請李主委"},{"start":5229.042,"end":5251.346,"text":"主委,我想要請教主委有沒有用過fulpanda或者是Ubereat外送平台買過東西?有那你覺得方便嗎?算方便那除了Ubereat跟fulpanda你有使用過其他的平台嗎?我沒有使用過其他的平台但是我知道有一些其他平台"},{"start":5252.148,"end":5268.573,"text":"那根據統計呢利用外送平臺送美食的甚至購物在臺灣已經有超過八成人在使用那主委知道從事外送的相關人員總人數大概是多少嗎這一方面我比"},{"start":5270.165,"end":5278.507,"text":"本席跟主委分享是14.5萬人其實人數是非常的多這個是根據勞動部公布的資料那為什麼本席會問這個問題是因為現在市場盛傳Foodpanda可能會出售他在亞洲的業務給Uber Eats"},{"start":5293.57,"end":5319.185,"text":"那如果結合成一間公司的話那市佔率可能會超過八成那依據公平交易法第11條必須向主管機關提出申報不曉得目前是否已經有接到業者提出申報或者詢問相關結合的事宜還沒有結合申報的案件就是普天達跟Uber E目前沒有"},{"start":5321.254,"end":5336.427,"text":"所以我記得第11條上面寫說假設結合的事業占市長的三分之一以上就必須要向公平交易委員會這邊來申請這個是否正確沒有錯就是如果以復篇大跟Uber E這兩家假設他們要結合的話他應該是已經合自公平法要求要申報的結合門檻"},{"start":5349.138,"end":5361.772,"text":"雖然他們現在到目前為止還沒有接到他們的申請但未來不排除他們可能會結合那依據公平會過去的這個慣例是否會允許他結合呢?"},{"start":5363.234,"end":5393.029,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":5393.109,"end":5393.91,"text":"對經濟的利益如何我們會多方來評估"},{"start":5420.65,"end":5443.742,"text":"公平會的職責就是在守護這個市場機制避免事業利用其市場優勢來影響市場那今年公平會就對大副媒體凱基違反當初併購時的這個附加條款裁罰那目前兩間被罰的這個事業體是不是有提出意義呢?"},{"start":5445.096,"end":5462.412,"text":"這部分我們提出以後他們有提出行政徵送是那所以呢其實本席的重點還是在於說這個外送平台的結合希望公平會要負起嚴格把關的這個功能那另外呢其實呢"},{"start":5463.973,"end":5488.985,"text":"這個保障不只是只是這個有三個方向就是說供貨的商家外送的人員跟消費者我想他們是影響最深然後毫無溢價能力的人那對於外送人員的保障全國超過14萬個外送人員幾乎都是這兩大平台所屬那過去外送人員究竟是承攬制或者是雇傭制"},{"start":5489.665,"end":5495.97,"text":"常常有爭議,那對此爭議必須與此次的結合更明確地去保障外送人員的機制這一點可能要請公平會要鳴記於心是,這部分將來如果真的有結合申報我們應該要徵詢哪一些事業團體或是政府部門這我們一定會很審慎來處理"},{"start":5514.164,"end":5528.042,"text":"接下來我想要問可能大家現在目前都非常concern的一件事情就是衛福部發文取消了醫療機構這個掛號費的備查制度 不曉得主委怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":5528.843,"end":5529.063,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":5548.595,"end":5577.054,"text":"現在這個爭議就是民眾非常的憂心耶如果醫療院所4億漲價對於醫療資源缺乏的地區的這些居民是影響非常大的所以呢對於衛福部謝澤說如果醫療院所聯合漲價就去跟公平會檢舉啊你對於這件事情你是怎麼看醫療院所如果聯合漲價這個違反公平交易法的規定公平交易委員會當然要依法查處"},{"start":5578.275,"end":5586.449,"text":"那我可以請問一下諸位你覺得你們人手夠嗎因為你知道現在是一條街十幾間診所他是連診所他都"},{"start":5588.12,"end":5608.231,"text":"不在他的這個監督範圍之內了那如果這個所有的民眾都來檢舉你們的人手你覺得你們夠嗎我們真的不打算向行政院提出抗議嗎我想這各部會他的政策有他的這個行程的過程但是公平會作為一個競爭主管機關即便是人手不夠也是應該要積極處理"},{"start":5609.992,"end":5628.52,"text":"我想你們當然是有苦難也但是畢竟這個衛福部是央央大部他們自己應該盡的責任不做然後卻把責任都推給你們一個委員會我真的是為你們感到不值啊所以醫療院所其實是一個特許行業那主管機關就應該負起監督的責任"},{"start":5631.621,"end":5636.304,"text":"如果說現在像負責這個產銷均衡制度的農業部都不負責了所有問題都去向你們檢舉那負責金融管理的金管會他也不管金融機構的行為了全部都回歸市場機制有問題都去向公平會檢舉啊NCC也不管傳媒啦"},{"start":5652.314,"end":5673.369,"text":"都去向公平會檢舉就好啦那以後我們中華民國的行政機關都可以裁撤掉留下公平會就好啦是不是不是這樣公平會處理的是影響市場競爭秩序的行為如果不是跟競爭秩序有關的行為那這個在各部會應該有它的另外的處理機制我是建議啊公平會你們應該要趕快提出抗議怎麼會衛福部這麼多預算這麼多人手的"},{"start":5680.954,"end":5682.916,"text":"好 謝謝專家俊委員接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":5717.288,"end":5739.602,"text":"謝謝趙委那我們是不是有請李主委來請李主委主委早主委那還是因應之前幾位委員有去問到衛福部取消這個關澳費的一個被查制那取消被查他代表的意義是什麼"},{"start":5744.485,"end":5771.456,"text":"查機制在衛福部有相關的這個他們的做法對阿阿現在取消備查跟這個掛號費未來會怎麼的怎麼的波動我的了解是將來你們的判斷呢我的了解是將來各醫療院所他的這個掛號費要收取多少各醫療院所各自去決定就各醫療院所自己去決定那如果過去是備查的話過去不可以決定嗎"},{"start":5773.154,"end":5784.869,"text":"不管是過去或是現在都不可以有聯合定價的你沒有回答我的問題我的意思是說如果是備彩的話過去他們還是可以決定他們的關號費"},{"start":5788.086,"end":5803.734,"text":"只是說因為他們備查那衛福部掌握了這個資訊那掌握這個資訊的同時也可能會多少會牽制到他們關號費的漲價是不是這個意思那未來就取消備查所以衛福部很明顯在這一塊他們是不管的"},{"start":5804.534,"end":5823.726,"text":"好 那現在就跑到了公平會的問題啦所以未來你們就會有這個責任啦好 那我想要請教是說如果針對診所漲掛號費因為取消備查然後他們之後他們之前就可以漲但是他們現在漲了那你們要怎麼認定還有聯合行為基本上如果是各漲各的這個"},{"start":5826.643,"end":5833.888,"text":"對阿問題就來了阿這麼多診所好阿如果明天我同一條街的第一家診所漲了100塊"},{"start":5836.135,"end":5863.293,"text":"那隔天第二家診所誇他漲了我也要漲那我也漲100塊那第三天第三家也漲了100塊然後一個禮拜內這一條街的七家診所全漲了100塊那這樣是不是聯合行為這個是跟漲的行為我想在商場上跟漲的行為也是常見常見嘛但是他們不是聯合行為嘛因為行為必須他們對於契約的主要內容有一定的默契的形成"},{"start":5864.073,"end":5873.337,"text":"有一定的合意嘛有這樣的合意形成才會變成聯合行為所以我只能告訴你事實上這件事情公平會未來縱使接受檢舉你們不會查"},{"start":5875.68,"end":5903.355,"text":"我們會看情況但是你們查不出什麽東西來除非你們有抓到說他們有這一家診所的七家診所引五顆零一個飯局然後大家講好說我們一起來漲是是如果有證據那跟委員說明我們去年就查到了桃園有兩家聯合那這個有這個證據對我知道你們去年有查你們有查到兩家醫院有聯合新聞所以還是要看我們掌握的證據情況但是我只能跟你說這件事事實上"},{"start":5904.595,"end":5927.083,"text":"我希望你們可以掌握但是我不覺得公平會在這件事因為可以想像的就是跟漲嘛那跟漲的結果你們查不到什麼所以這就是我要講的公平會你們把自己設限是讓你們武器比你們想像的還要小你們管不了什麼所以我要進入下一題"},{"start":5929.443,"end":5948.56,"text":"來,現在網路詐騙這麼多那網路詐騙事實上都是透過這種像Facebook、像IG這種Meta的平台很多啦,他們是大宗那你們對於這樣的網路詐騙我們公平會有希望採取怎樣的作為來有效的監管嗎?"},{"start":5952.904,"end":5971.465,"text":"網絡詐騙涉及到跨機關、跨部會的權責所以在網絡詐騙部份公平會也參與行政院的一個打詐的小組那如果網絡上的廣告涉及的是不實廣告那我們有主動監控我想在分工上針對詐騙部份你們主動監控但是你們到底監控了什麼來下一頁"},{"start":5974.535,"end":5997.468,"text":"會把常常發生不實廣告的類型好那我現在就給你看整個網路上常常會出現這些名人這個包括我們台積電的董事長夫人以及我們的主委他們都變成在教大家怎麼去做股票的投資這會不會很誇張"},{"start":5999.141,"end":6020.872,"text":"但是它確實存在啊也不僅於他們兩個啊像我們也許主委啊你的照片啊你的名字也被冒用然後也變成在對於這一些不知道的人然後去做那一些喊話請他們加入結果後來變成詐騙那像這樣像這樣的話臉書也沒管啊"},{"start":6025.178,"end":6039.408,"text":"那縱使我去澄清說這個是有問題的那有用嗎?你們對於這樣的國際大平台有沒有辦法去去處罰他們或者是要求他們必須要針對這樣的作為要怎麼做嗎?"},{"start":6040.928,"end":6064.601,"text":"如果是詐騙或者是這個投資方面的各種的這些詐騙的行為基本上在公平法裡面比較沒有處理的空間比較沒有空間嗎對啊但是我們接觸了這樣的一個臉書啊我們接觸臉書卻充斥了這樣的詐騙我相信啦依他們平台的他們平台的後台啦一定可以知道說這個詐騙集團一定是"},{"start":6067.122,"end":6087.023,"text":"多用相同來源然後去做重複註冊然後去註冊了一堆一堆的這樣的一個帳號只是說他們的來源可能是外國所以你們抓不到問題他們抓得到啊他們一定知道啊到底是哪一些族群然後去大量的註冊這樣的一個帳號應該嘛"},{"start":6091.27,"end":6093.476,"text":"阿所以你們能夠做的就是對他們處罰請他們針對這樣的行為來做遏止阿有辦法"},{"start":6098.956,"end":6120.703,"text":"現在投資這一部分我的了解是那個政見投顧法相關法律裡面有要求要這個後台是不是要脫波者是不是要有實名制的這些規定那我想透過這個實名制在這個脫波者的實名制那是他們後台去要求可是那實名制都很容易被破解啦"},{"start":6121.728,"end":6142.647,"text":"因為他們只是要提供身分證或者是怎樣 對不對 然後提供有效的這個電子帳號 他們那些都整組的啦 因為他們都到局去收集個資啊 他們還是有辦法破解啊這些詐騙行為就是刑事責任 就是這樣啦 對不對 但是我來下一頁"},{"start":6146.578,"end":6172.273,"text":"主委,事實上韓國在去年底他們事實上針對這個米塔公司他們就提出了一個針對他們的一個審查報告事實上他們就是要講對類似這樣的國際跨國的一個商譽平台電子商譽平台他們就有在做這樣的一個審查那這樣的一個審查你看韓國也是這樣做"},{"start":6173.649,"end":6193.359,"text":"所以我們公平會還是可以有所作為吧?我們其實也網路上平台有很多不實廣告我們過去也邀請了這些平台還有國內不然是國內或者是Meta邀請這些平台來共同協討論如何去解決這些不實廣告的一個問題那這個我們也有"},{"start":6198.562,"end":6224.497,"text":"既然有討論一定會有一些結論嘛那些結論有沒有落實啊這是現在重點是這樣不能只是一直在做討論啊你們還是要有一些結論的落實啊好我最後再講一個議題啦我最後講一個議題就再一分鐘就好就是讓主委你們要想你們公平會還是要面對一個問題現在整個台灣的一個貸款幾乎都銀行貸不到的就跑到這個這個叫做什麼"},{"start":6227.739,"end":6254.596,"text":"融資貸款融資公司那是這些融資公司呢 通常都是在金控公司下面喔所以他們這個融資公司跟這個金控公司有沒有做他們一些客戶資料的一些共享或者是他們這些融資公司為什麼這個銀行貸不到的就把他介紹去融資公司然後讓融資公司可以瞬間可以掌握這些客源或者是他們跟車商"},{"start":6256.671,"end":6275.202,"text":"那這中間有沒有資料的一個共享那這件事公平會要不要管我想如果是客戶資料的共享這可能是涉及到這個個人資料保護法的議題對可是他們是他們是不同公司可是他們是同一個集團的嘛這個是讓大家要知道嘛"},{"start":6275.998,"end":6277.039,"text":"公平會管嗎?公平會到底要管啊?"},{"start":6292.642,"end":6309.472,"text":"基本上個人資料保護的這個洩漏或者是客戶資料的共享在如果有涉及到競爭秩序那當然公平法有處理如果不是涉及到這個競爭秩序而是個資的保護問題那應該是使用個資法現在整個融資已經在臺灣充斥太多了然後他們不受金管會的監管"},{"start":6317.037,"end":6317.798,"text":"謝謝蔡易瑜委員接下來請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":6354.463,"end":6359.992,"text":"首先謝謝自己現在我們請公平會我們的理事會來請理事會委員長理事會好"},{"start":6368.905,"end":6395.241,"text":"那看你的業務報告裡面你說公平交易委員會只要是公平交易法及多層次的傳銷管理法啊近年來本會突破聯合行為正不易的困境你說配合了寬市政策與減給獎金的制度啊什麼是寬市的政策你告訴我一下"},{"start":6396.374,"end":6397.395,"text":"關於多層次傳銷管理"},{"start":6425.253,"end":6444.115,"text":"照苗栗叫做清零直銷公司啊這個案件是由你們公平會送到給檢察官去審判那打了九年半的官司他打贏了但是公司倒了所以我在想這個問題到底要如何來解決"},{"start":6448.664,"end":6465.929,"text":"是由公平交易委員會送給檢察官檢察官偵辦把他什麼都扣押下來整個扣押下來他打了九年半的官司最終他這家直銷公司打贏了但是公司倒閉了要如何來解決所以我在講你們要很小心不要隨便跟人家亂移送打贏了要不要申請國賓"},{"start":6477.108,"end":6477.788,"text":"今天很多人都問到"},{"start":6502.983,"end":6527.268,"text":"關於取消國安會的上限那是不是聯合的一個行為那現在你要特別注意電價上漲、國安會上漲等一下水會上漲、等一下油價又上漲台灣都一片的漲升所以衛福部部長說你們會去調查有沒有聯合漲價的行為這是來講很難調查"},{"start":6533.001,"end":6538.855,"text":"啊這一方面那為何不把這個資料丟給你們叫你們去查你們怎麼樣查還是"},{"start":6542.782,"end":6565.978,"text":"我想我們有很多查核的方式一個當然是主動如果各地方衛生單位或是我們從這個各院所的這個條帳的情形認為有可疑的地方或有異狀這個我們會來調查我看診所大概除了聯合診所有好幾家都有這樣的行為那要看地區的狀況"},{"start":6567.359,"end":6568.44,"text":"應該當醫生的人都有良心跟道德"},{"start":6596.097,"end":6618.378,"text":"那你也曉得我一直持續的關注於高通事件那我們台灣一個很特殊的方法就是7億美金的罰款可以用來投資台灣的產業來代替這個罰款我一直盯著這邊那高通公司的罰款是要到112年結事"},{"start":6621.208,"end":6630.414,"text":"但是他在111年就執行完畢結果執行完畢的話高通公司在臺灣裁員一千多人請改了7億美金是臺北最少是210億以上你現在做法出來你覺得他現在有沒有機器再來協資臺灣"},{"start":6649.709,"end":6650.776,"text":"你們有沒有做出報告?"},{"start":6656.349,"end":6669.499,"text":"這個和解方案都是白紙黑字照這個和解的內容在執行 那我們在這個和解執行期間都國科會跟經濟部都有協助相關的和解計畫有的是持續性的 不會因為和解條件就都拐拐起來喔 沒有啊 再幾年就 幾年就結束啦 112年前是你們有沒有總檢討 但是他投資的內容是有延續性的"},{"start":6684.091,"end":6690.513,"text":"所以我一直跟你講他研發中心用花粉來代替台灣投資他的研究中心如果有新的專利台灣能不能分享得到"},{"start":6705.796,"end":6707.518,"text":"我看是很困難我高通那麼大的公司實力很強大"},{"start":6729.529,"end":6741.034,"text":"你說給大學計時後5日的實驗室臺灣的公司能不能到他5日的實驗室去做實驗可能有困難那是我們的錢欸不是他的錢欸"},{"start":6745.39,"end":6754.861,"text":"我們的廠商有在那裡做實驗,我想這個都照和解企業,我們都很…有也沒有啦,我現在最忙碌,你只說和解企業,有說我們台灣的手工會去你的無機實驗室去做實驗嗎?因為產品開發時程,我們的廠商都有在那裡做"},{"start":6760.928,"end":6762.449,"text":"但是裡面一個重點專利我們可能拿不到"},{"start":6788.183,"end":6790.884,"text":"第二 台灣的廠商能不能禁止?"},{"start":6790.884,"end":6798.108,"text":"這個很重要的一個觀點 不能說我會去王家攀海啦好不好加強一下好不好 謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員 那接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言"},{"start":6815.865,"end":6818.03,"text":"好謝謝趙薇請主委李主委來請李主委"},{"start":6825.18,"end":6848.589,"text":"大家好公平會其實大家久久才會見一次啦因為其實平常說因為在經濟部在國會下其實公平會相對上沒有那麼的複雜不過我其實覺得我們的公平會其實可以扮演更重要的一個角色相較於日本韓國在我認為不是那麼消極的處理這樣公平的業務我認為其實包括公平甚至一些消費者相關問題應該更著重一點"},{"start":6850.45,"end":6867.475,"text":"讓公平會有更強的一個功能也更回應社會的期待台灣看待執政黨不是公平會一樣是執政的一部分執政的一個角色政府的角色所以我希望未來部長能夠更加重這樣的一個功能那我想今天還是要來談我之前也開過一個記者會就針對於這個Nixon的這個遊戲他在韓國的時候他"},{"start":6875.063,"end":6880.269,"text":"偷偷的修改它甚至沒有公告所以它被整個韓國的公平會重罰了"},{"start":6884.752,"end":6909.219,"text":"116億韓元相當於2.75億的臺幣那我想問一下因為我們臺灣也有代理這個新風之國也有代理這個遊戲那我上次有提到我希望我們也要立案去調查到底我們有沒有我們的代理業者有沒有也涉及到這樣的隱匿的狀況因為這個這個其實都是很誇張的因為你本來都已經有基本的獲利可獲得了如果你調降他機率的話"},{"start":6910.439,"end":6927.373,"text":"像有的甚至韓國那更惡劣是0的話你怎麼抽也抽不到那幾乎每每有一個玩家只要每抽一次你就每賺一次而且必賺的這是完全的侵犯到消費者權益完全的不完全不合理齁這個政府應該要有所作為我問一下主委調查開始進行調查了嗎什麼時候會出來"},{"start":6927.773,"end":6930.416,"text":"韓國政府有韓國政府的作為,台灣政府當然也有台灣政府的作為"},{"start":6948.692,"end":6952.437,"text":"所以開始有立案調查?已經立案調查那什麼時候會出來?我想我們會看整個也要相關的事證主委給個時間吧這件事情韓國在1月份都已經調查出來都開罰了然後我們已經經過了現在3月了經過兩個月了"},{"start":6966.135,"end":6969.9,"text":"我們盡快來處理公平會我覺得每次最可惜就是什麼東西都是盡快但是展現出效率人民其實不會給政府那麼多時間的"},{"start":6986.254,"end":6986.514,"text":"韓國已經發生這樣狀況重罰"},{"start":7007.338,"end":7032.874,"text":"重罰了這個2.75億台幣這樣的一個金額我們希望台灣的代理廠商有沒有盡快調查出來有的話該重罰重罰沒有的話也讓大家讓王家們知道台灣其實並沒有產生這樣的問題好嗎好謝謝三個月那再來我想要再講的上次的部分其實有關於不實的資訊的時候那其實公平委罰過了兩次那兩次各罰兩百萬"},{"start":7034.535,"end":7052.154,"text":"相較於韓國發生這樣的狀況：他站在整個公平的角度：站在保障消費的角度：他給予廠商重罰2.75億：這個絕對是重：對他們來產生影響：但是即使如此的話：對他們來說也是他們營業額很小的一個比例而已"},{"start":7052.895,"end":7059.358,"text":"部長我們未來如果有查到任何這樣狀況的話我們會不會採取比較重的一個處罰這是整個罰環的高低多少在委員會會討論那對於這種網路激勵型遊戲的這個不是廣告將來如果查證屬實我們會朝重罰的方向"},{"start":7073.685,"end":7101.841,"text":"韓國的總統是用他認為這個已經涉及到詐欺了他認為這是在不時的去詐欺確實嘛你根本就不見了坦白講啦一百次不見了會抓到一兩次嘛因為這要抓到沒那麼容易嘛但是你抓到了你有沒有政府有一個機制讓人民感受到政府這件事情是完全站在消費者的角度的立場在捍衛的如果有的話那些業者他就會發現喔這開玩笑這這不能開玩笑這一法道很重的"},{"start":7102.741,"end":7121.776,"text":"我認為台灣的公平會在這件事情上面要採取更強硬態度你可以這個重罰的上限我記得是2500萬嘛對不對但是你們只罰了200萬主委當時的考量是什麼為什麼不給予罰重一點200萬九牛一毛是九牛一毛那一天大概一天隨便也超過他的200萬"},{"start":7123.288,"end":7139.169,"text":"一天收入的玩家買這些的早就超過了那為什麼就罰個200萬是不是大家覺得官方在負責這些玩家這個業者最主要是說像第二家我們罰200萬是他跟玩家有很迅速的採取一些合理的"},{"start":7140.411,"end":7156.168,"text":"這個和解補償的機制就是對王家有意義去回應這一件事情所以我們在整個即使是這樣子啦齁主委你看一下後面啦所有的網路上面有在參與這件事情其實很多人都說很不滿的對政府在這件事情上你要稍微去查一下就知道"},{"start":7157.253,"end":7176.179,"text":"非常高的比例 非常的不滿 因為他覺得你很難抓到 抓到以後輕罰兩百萬政府其實毫無作為的 他也很輕鬆啊 業者沒有壓力啊 他當然沒有壓力啊你抓到也是兩百萬而已嘛 我當然有很強烈的去隱匿甚至很強烈的 甚至於更惡劣的是詐欺的動機嘛 獲利這麼的大 抓到頂多兩百萬而已"},{"start":7180.62,"end":7205.469,"text":"這完全不符合比例所以我意思說不要看那個什麼個人和解的抓到了就該要重罰就該要重罰我會持續盯著這個案子好不好很多的玩家特別是年輕世代的玩家他們不見得會具體的讓你政府感受到但是他們的不滿其實是累積在心中的他是不滿的政府沒有作為他們是不滿的"},{"start":7206.829,"end":7219.621,"text":"所以我希望這件事情公平會有能力有角色的時候要扮演起這樣的功能跟角色好嗎我們來看一下日本有一個叫錦平表示法他對於不實的廣告不實的那部分可以罰獲利的3%"},{"start":7222.503,"end":7224.586,"text":"公平委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7239.924,"end":7265.478,"text":"這個稅後的淨利的話12.8億如果照這樣的3%至少重罰也要3800萬3800萬我們的法制到2500萬你至少要重罰到2500萬才可以讓人民感受到說讓業者感到說我政府對這件事情確實是對於你們這樣的隱匿對你們甚至可能涉及到炸機是非常的不滿非常有意見跟人民跟消費者站在一起的所以我希望如果未來有查到的話該重罰就可以重罰好嗎"},{"start":7266.328,"end":7278.874,"text":"在這個法法的額度上那各界的期待我們在委員會也會充分來討論我還是要提醒齁委員會裡面當然充分來討論但是如果任何的作為出來跟人民有很大落差的時候這個都是政府要去承擔的"},{"start":7279.819,"end":7306.558,"text":"委員們一起進來但是將來有任何的作為都是政府要承擔而主委在這裡面應該要陳述清楚因為你會來到國會會被被詢因為你要對人民來負責你會第一線的接受人民的一個負責的感受所以我認為這件事情要在委員會裡面不斷的要去表述清楚不然要去跟委員們溝通、輕罰這件事情並不困難嘛但如果站在消費者的角度、站在人民的角度給予合理的處罰甚至給予重罰的話"},{"start":7308.545,"end":7324.878,"text":"讓不敢有輕易的一個空間的話這個其實才是符合人民的期待我想整體法環的提高這部分我們會裡面會來民間也有在提到甚至希望建立轉蛋法越來越多的線上遊戲越來越多的這種的部分主委認為需要來立轉蛋法嗎針對一個單一的"},{"start":7338.1,"end":7348.772,"text":"我再次提醒這件事情的它的影響跟獲利其實相當的大是不是要立專法這個可以來討論但是我希望政府要有所作為如果單一的事情遲遲無法解決的話"},{"start":7349.633,"end":7370.913,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7371.391,"end":7371.471,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7388.437,"end":7412.501,"text":"請主委去考慮一下好不好就對於它的特別是那種蘇維化的轉蛋的部分它的獲利巨大的時候韓國都可以罰到2.75億如果你的上限只有2500萬再怎麼罰想要中我罰只給我2500萬當然就罰不上去了我希望主委慎重思考一下怎麼樣的來不一定全部拿進來但是怎麼樣用這個這個形式達到我們期待如果萬一它違法重罰給業者賀足利的效果好不好好謝謝主委好謝謝"},{"start":7420.128,"end":7437.607,"text":"好,接下來請邱志偉委員發言林德福委員林德福委員不在,我們請邱志偉委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請公民會的李主委來,請李主委"},{"start":7445.16,"end":7471.178,"text":"主席,貴會防治人為操縱物價專案小組是你當主席嗎?我們副主委我也會參加主動監測的這些項目是正面表列還是你們列舉的?我們重點是這一些,如果有其他在這上面沒有的有必要的話也會一起掌握你那個就是蔬果類,玉米、白米這些,然後油、糖"},{"start":7472.176,"end":7487.125,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7488.459,"end":7505.617,"text":"比較常見的我們是固定會監控那會因為每一個時間哪一段時間在價格上比較有異常需要特別注意的我們也會一起來監控那你這個範圍你再去檢討一下你大概是屬於這些農畜產品嘛農畜產品嘛那漁產品呢"},{"start":7510.606,"end":7510.706,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7530.634,"end":7553.069,"text":"這個農林移牧各種產品非常多那你要針對就沒有一個魚嘛魚都沒有嘛那魚會不會有人文操縱也有可能啊是有需要的話我們也會一起來看當然有需要我才會提醒你嘛所以我希望你下一次就把這些品項能夠正面表列包括農、魚、農多少品項、魚多少產品項、水多少品項"},{"start":7556.051,"end":7556.292,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7564.932,"end":7565.913,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":7588.168,"end":7612.339,"text":"有委員有提到那個部分你說兩個月之內要完成會審然後要提到委員會討論那最後的結論是怎麼樣11月給你質詢你兩個月會審你把我的諮詢話你就聽一聽隨便給我答一答後面就沒有沒有沒有任何動作沒有任何積極作為這個我會繼續追蹤喔你告訴我你不知道說現在進度怎麼樣"},{"start":7614.861,"end":7624.891,"text":"到底有沒有完成資料會診這部分已經委員全行的部分我們已經有提供資料那我們在這個那調查結果是怎麼樣嗎"},{"start":7627.725,"end":7627.985,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7645.586,"end":7667.268,"text":"那得到結論說事實上那個關鍵字插入要形成關鍵字甚至構成不法他顯示出來是要廣告主去買關鍵字而且他要使用關鍵字功能那Google他有一些方便措施他本身就是如果廣告主或全面的你把那個我們當次你們討論的會議的議程跟結論情形跟討論情形一份資料給我"},{"start":7667.808,"end":7677.919,"text":"好沒有問題你們是用臨時動議去討論的沒有沒有我們是體委會審議喔你確定你們給我知道是用16334會議你們是臨時用臨時動議沒有錯嘛我們有正式討論我們有正式討論"},{"start":7686.147,"end":7698.574,"text":"有正式討論應該有列案來當議程的討論嘛那時候因為這個我剛剛給你這些細節你這資料給我看不是 你這邊答案戶說你要好好去打送委員會審查我們那個會議審議案要處罰哪一些那列審議案那這個是根據根據這個調查的結果到委員會去說明所以他會在臨時動議裡面讓其他的委員知道這件事情那我們審議案就是已經具體個案要"},{"start":7713.163,"end":7715.086,"text":"我們有正式提報告案在委員會也有充分討論"},{"start":7729.191,"end":7746.445,"text":"這個你們把會議的整個議程,包括你們討論情形,那個會議基礎再給我一份。我知道會會的事情我為什麼會質詢,因為很重要。那你們處理你不能太草率、太輕忽啊。這樣的處理態度我覺得相對是消極的。"},{"start":7749.394,"end":7749.554,"text":"綠色的轉型"},{"start":7772.43,"end":7787.002,"text":"這個很多企業都要面臨綠色轉型的問題那這個轉型的過程中因為很複雜有很多相關的這些法律的規定並不是每個業者特別是中小型業者都不是那麼的清楚都有可能因此這個踩到這個競爭法的紅線"},{"start":7791.004,"end":7808.626,"text":"那如果在這個過程中你踩到這個紅線那這個公平會有沒有相關的這個指引辦法讓這些中小業者有所指引、有所遵循我也不知道有沒有專業人員去"},{"start":7809.307,"end":7810.048,"text":"我們對於這個企業齁"},{"start":7825.509,"end":7853.292,"text":"如何去避免有聯合行為我們有定一些指引那在平時的這個每個我們去年還做的到各個行業去針對他量身定做我針對是這個綠色轉型而且是針對這個中小企業中小企業你要綠色轉型的過程中有很多法律或者他們人才不足那需要這種相關的指引他們才有所依循嘛"},{"start":7853.892,"end":7863.466,"text":"日本公平會在去年就發布相關的遵法指引那怎麼樣讓他們避免在這個綠色轉移過程中來違反這個相關的獨占相關的這個公平法"},{"start":7869.353,"end":7883.94,"text":"這個部分針對中小企業律師轉型過程中你們要發布相關的指引,這樣可以嗎?跟委員報告一下那個有關律師的指引日本這個我們有掌握啦那其實他主要是針對提供業者一些比較明確不違法的依據這個如同委員剛剛所講"},{"start":7885.04,"end":7906.475,"text":"那他所提到這些問題當然主要是涉及到同業之間聯合行為那聯合行為的目的是要實現綠色轉型的目的那對於這樣的問題我們也會遇到那我目前可以做我沒有像貝斯這樣的具體的該案處理原則但是這如果類似的案子出現目前我們是沒有類似的案子你最好是有該案你就不用去跟這個去做輔導"},{"start":7907.696,"end":7932.529,"text":"你看到你的概覽你就知道怎麼去處理的日本訂得出來我又不相信我們台灣訂不出來其實最主要原因是因為概覽的製作通常我們必須要有一些實際案例的經驗我們才能夠知道怎麼去訂那個具體的概覽內容不過因為目前如果真的有這個案例推脫之時我不見得說一定有實際案例的經驗你可以參逐國外的立法院你不要推脫之時我不曉得還有沒有說臨時提案如果說臨時提案委員會不收我就在院會提臨時提案"},{"start":7933.63,"end":7949.618,"text":"你6個月之內定定相關指引,然後讓這些中小企業在轉型過程中、綠色轉型過程中有所依據,可以嗎?我們朝這個方向來思考,不過就跟委員...不要說朝這個方向,你不要抽象地跟我講朝這個方向思考。我想要講的是...我已經第4屆,我必須要遵守這個質詢的相關的規範。"},{"start":7953.15,"end":7972.317,"text":"時間到了,我就不能再用太多的時間,因為我也講到後面這個委員諮詢的權益 這個諮詢的倫理、諮詢的次序也很重要那個是不是請公平會會後再擺一個...主席,你就直接踩一次,六個月有困難嗎?你把相關的資金訂出來我們朝這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":7974.193,"end":7974.653,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請鄭正前委員發言"},{"start":8008.32,"end":8009.587,"text":"主席好,我想請一下李主委來請主委"},{"start":8018.511,"end":8037.365,"text":"主委好,我想公平會其實對整個台灣整個市場當中的公平性其實有很大的關係因為這個我看這個公平會的整個主要的架構當中的時候我們今天大概有四個案例要提出來第一個是有關於整個電信業合併案就是2023年7月20號通過遠傳併亞太"},{"start":8040.888,"end":8065.027,"text":"10月11日通過了臺灣大病臺灣之心這兩個合併案其實大概都有一些附加的條件才讓他們通過我想說請教一下到今年為止他們有提出他們的一個具體的實施成果有提出他們的一個報告出來嗎?這位"},{"start":8067.799,"end":8069.02,"text":"對於這樣的狀態的時候是不是有違公平會當時所設立的一個合併條件?"},{"start":8097.547,"end":8123.583,"text":"要如何去維護消費者的一個權益謝謝委員的推詢當時我們的條件是從資費方面第一個過去這個臺灣之心的過去的這些合約除了資費之外 品質肯定是重要的條件之一那委員提到這個問題其實NCC他已經有一個觀測小組所以你們有跟NCC有聯絡"},{"start":8124.343,"end":8126.964,"text":"如果沒有履行這個負擔的話在公平會是有相當的處罰"},{"start":8148.413,"end":8174.967,"text":"什麼樣的處罰?我們有一個是法環或者是限期改正等等會看這個違反的情形對於這樣子的合併案呢華凡跟限期改正已經基本上已經很難去要求我講的狀態是說他們基本上已經違反了條件尤其像服務品質這個問題的時候那他們如果沒有直接去落實的時候你要他們限期改正我覺得也是有困難的不過因為這個東西才一年還沒有到我想說你們"},{"start":8175.767,"end":8177.489,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":8195.931,"end":8219.501,"text":"那我知道剛剛主委有回應那個另外委員有提到氣雲案這個問題因為我覺得氣雲案這個部分我覺得它比較特別的點是因為當時在2017年的時候公平月直接呼籲氣雲案的傳銷商跟公司解約嘛那麼在2023年的時候呢其實後來就發現了那個對於他們負責人的案子的時候呢其實是"},{"start":8222.216,"end":8224.017,"text":"那是有一個訴訟情形,我們請處長說明"},{"start":8241.363,"end":8255.497,"text":"是跟這個委員報告青雲這家公司呢那個我們移送給這個苗栗地檢署去偵辦之後呢他是有不斷的這個上訴所以中間確實如剛剛委員所提到他是有有勝訴有敗訴那最後的一個結果"},{"start":8257.999,"end":8283.998,"text":"是法院是沒有判這個負責人他們有罪我這邊直接問一個點在2017年的時候公平就呼籲大家解約嘛因為當時整個我們二省的時候是贏的狀態的時候呼籲解約可是問題是打到2023年的時候法院無罪判定當中直接表示說那個他們並非那個變質多層次傳銷直接表示他們並非多層次傳銷那以這樣的狀態來講的時候我們公平會"},{"start":8287.581,"end":8309.348,"text":"之前的這樣的一個行政的裁決會不會有一些缺失的部分我們要怎麼去因應後續的部分這個在我們當時的一個判斷其實我確實那時候法院的一個見解跟本會的一個見解可能有所出入那這個法院那邊是認為說它不是變質但是我們當時移送的時候我們是認為它是一個變質的一個傳銷"},{"start":8313.669,"end":8342.656,"text":"那其實法院的這個判決的見解也有兩度都是支持我們的相同的一個見解兩度是過程嗎?最後就是不是所以在這個案子當中的時候我發現我們公民會行政走的前面那法院判決之後打臉了我們公民會這邊的決議可是我想去講另外一個案子就是在整個那個永慶跟信義房屋的案子當中的時候就是永慶事實上在"},{"start":8344.167,"end":8369.693,"text":"信義房屋比較早就提出了這個案子可是我們公平會當時說要先司法後行政跟七雲這案子剛好是相反的一個情況那我們公平會在處理這不同個案當中的時候有沒有一些標準比方說針對那個關鍵字SEO的部分平台演算法這樣的一個這個案子當中的時候呢那我們公平會這邊是要求先司法後行政"},{"start":8370.593,"end":8389.566,"text":"所以等到司法判決之後我們公平會才要來做後續的一些行政的一個裁處那跟之前清雲案是完全反過來的一個情況所以說針對這個部分那我們公平會怎麼去針對不同的個案去做不同的判斷到底是要先司法還是要先行政"},{"start":8391.141,"end":8403.073,"text":"因為那個變質多層次傳銷在我們的這個多層次傳銷管理法18條是直接就是刑事責任那營業回放在我們的24條裡面有規範所以我們還是會看一下這個情況所以這個"},{"start":8404.963,"end":8405.123,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8426.689,"end":8447.586,"text":"你剛剛特別提到在慶雲這個案件當中的時候是先行政後司法你說因為是跟多層次傳銷的相關的法律有關可是因為最後針對他們負責的部分法院是直接判定他們並非變質的多層次傳銷這個部分請之後到本辦公室來做一個說明"},{"start":8448.106,"end":8467.484,"text":"因為對於這些相關的他們的會員的一些權益我們後續是不是會有可能會有救濟的方式請你並跟本席做說明那最後這邊我要問一個狀態就是最近大家很關心的其實是衛福部這邊針對掛號費的部分就是諸位有沒有看過這個公文"},{"start":8469.161,"end":8472.462,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":8492.466,"end":8492.726,"text":"公平會支持?"},{"start":8508.524,"end":8509.445,"text":"我們要去查他橫向事件有沒有勾結"},{"start":8529.258,"end":8529.658,"text":"公平交易委員會主任委員"},{"start":8550.603,"end":8578.644,"text":"基本上我覺得衛福部沒有扮演好一個很好的一個角色所以本席也希望說公平會這邊能夠跟衛福部跟訓練部長這邊再做一個溝通對於這樣子的一個動作是不是適合那請那個主委這邊站在公平的角度來跟衛福部這邊進行一個溝通讓民眾不要擔心整個那個那個掛號費大幅的提高好不好因為我們一定查處而且嚴處"},{"start":8579.554,"end":8580.555,"text":"王美惠 陳冠廷 林楚英 陳俊宇"},{"start":8598.483,"end":8617.893,"text":"陳俊宇委員不在、林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在、徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在、高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在．我們請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請李主委來請主委"},{"start":8625.472,"end":8639.808,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委 我想直接就教 在過去大家都很關心的民間通稱所謂的轉蛋法 在這個事件上面其實最主要還是一樣 強調公平跟透明的機制跟原則"},{"start":8640.916,"end":8656.072,"text":"那我們現在看到是說台灣的遊戲代理商的爭議啊調查確實有違反公平交易法第21條跟第4項的準用第一項規定儲200萬元的罰款但是今年啊我們看到"},{"start":8658.352,"end":8685.299,"text":"這個遊戲代理的韓國母公司被韓國的公平交易委員會宣布除以116億韓元除兩2.75億新台幣的新高這也是遊戲界電子交易商品法違法的歷史新高這是在韓國的一個紀錄人家可以處罰到2.75億我們最高只有200萬會不會覺得我們的法令武器太少太弱而且不痛不癢"},{"start":8686.311,"end":8710.784,"text":"我們的法定的最高罰款有到2500萬那至於罰款的多少我們會看個案的案情還有這個被檢舉事業他對這件事情後來處理的態度等等那我們台灣遊戲代理商的爭議到最後只有儲200萬的罰款你說最高可以到2000、200是最低下限是不是?"},{"start":8712.032,"end":8735.382,"text":"從五萬到兩千五百萬五萬到兩千所以說他其實他的裁量空間非常的大那也許對你們來講是覺得說哇五萬最低五萬但我處罰兩百萬好像很大但不是啊對遊戲廠商來講他可能他的一個規模市場他可能是幾億幾十億的規模市場你看現在電視廣告會打電視廣告的有哪一些業者你有沒有看"},{"start":8736.431,"end":8760.871,"text":"要嘛就是汽車要嘛就遊戲對不對就代表是說會打電視廣告會打遊戲會打電視廣告代表說他的市場真的很大那本期並不是講是說遊戲廠商不能做大但是他在做大的前提之下他要符合公平原則所以說這才是民間一直在吹聲說所謂的轉蛋法那現在我們講是說我們只有200萬的罰環你說最高可以2000萬"},{"start":8763.409,"end":8790.745,"text":"兩千五百萬可是韓國可以罰到2.75億等於是又再是我們最高的十倍所以換言之我們現在與時俱進的情況下尤其是看到他們市場規模那麼大那我們是不是應該要考慮有沒有要做調整法律的裁罰的範圍或者是說未來這樣的一個類型的違反的時候我們要以更高標準來要求我想謝謝委員的推詢基本上"},{"start":8792.086,"end":8795.149,"text":"我們可不可以先簡單講一下就是說這一次這個罰200萬這個遊戲廠商的部分我們那時候考量"},{"start":8813.146,"end":8813.486,"text":"市場機制、過去營業額、用戶人數"},{"start":8831.374,"end":8852.127,"text":"有嗎?怎麼我們看到很多大家討論上來講還是覺得說他是隱瞞這個是逼到說大家已經群起激憤然後網紅票出來那一開始的時候人家質疑的時候這個廠商好像還是顧左右而言他講說是韓國母公司有規定"},{"start":8855.136,"end":8872.242,"text":"本席現在不是檢討單一廠商本席現在講的其實是一個通盤性的問題因為我們要良幣驅逐劣幣嘛我們希望是建立一個好的一個公平機制讓台灣的遊戲市場更健全也讓我們的玩家更有保障那公平會當然在這個角色上就扮演非常重要"},{"start":8872.782,"end":8896.539,"text":"我會看贊同委員的意見就是將來在這個法環的考量上會同盤做一個考量是不是可以考量我覺得第一這個公司他到底他的營業額的一個因為他講這樣的廣告這樣的機率讓大家覺得是說機率高就投入了那可能他的營業額確實也提升那確實提升的情況下你不能用不公平的機率來去誘騙玩家所以第一他的營業額應該不要考量第二"},{"start":8898.18,"end":8921.72,"text":"用戶人數到底影響到多廣要被考量以及更重要的是他今天宣稱這樣子的一個機率有沒有變成是他強打廣告的一個部分有人講什麼調保率百分百首局開抽一定抽到什麼五星級武將還是什麼有啊都有這種廣告嘛那本席現在講是說這些一定都要考量進去你認同嗎"},{"start":8923.615,"end":8952.058,"text":"那再來主委請教之前有講到是說行政院消保處跟數位部合作要推動強制公開轉彈中獎機率那也要有這個什麼驗證機制啊那還要有這個驗證機制的發起消機會要發起第三方轉彈機率驗證網等於是好像有一個第三方的公證平台告訴大家是說這個遊戲他到底他的這個機率是不是公平的"},{"start":8952.859,"end":8977.548,"text":"那未來我們這個公平交易委員會這邊能夠扮演什麼樣的角色是不是能夠一起跨部會的整合來推動這樣的一個第三方別的還是你認為說這可能有自愛難行之處這部分我們有跨機關都有一起討論只要相關的法令規定業者要公佈機率要揭露機率那你這個機率跟實際不實這就是不實廣告這公平會會依公平法來決定那我們有辦法查證嗎"},{"start":8978.408,"end":9002.888,"text":"我現在對現在就是說他可能他就推給說這是母公司他不是臺灣的研發公司他可能是從韓國代理進口的母公司那母公司跟有商業機密考量過去他就是這樣講就是說我們能不能就是去驗證確認他確實譬如說公布10%的中獎機率他就確實10%在基地是否確不確實是確實是不好去查證但是我們想跨部會"},{"start":9006.05,"end":9031.643,"text":"那這個是可以哪一個單位來做是公平會、速發部還是消基會還是哪一個單位可以確實告訴我們是說讓玩家其實很簡單就像食品衛生那個牛奶它裡面有多少成分的這個乳蛋白多少成分的脂肪它可能也會有衛福部來去做一個確認嘛那一樣的道理今天業者宣稱說我這個遊戲多少的機率那是哪一個單位可以去確認是說他講的是確實的"},{"start":9033.264,"end":9038.388,"text":"那個細節我們請處長跟委員說明簡單30秒好不好跟委員報告有關於這個線上遊戲機率的驗證問題在之前是沒有一個客觀的一個驗證單位沒有錯但是數位部呢其實他有為請那個台科他去做一些事辦那已經促成了台科他現在"},{"start":9053.356,"end":9081.461,"text":"他們是有一個可以驗證的這樣一個單位那什麼時候?在哪裡?官網嗎?那個詳細的資料是不是請公平會再交給黃孟凱委員給本席一個資料但更重要的是拜託主委該召集公平會這邊召集速發部召集消極會來做開會討論因為轉蛋法已經討論很多遍了而且最重要的是透明公開的資訊讓業者能夠符合標準以及讓玩家能夠放心市場才會大我們就請他交資料給您好不好"},{"start":9082.661,"end":9103.348,"text":"謝謝各位謝謝接下來我們請鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請王世堅委員王委員你下次可不可以做到委員席來因為那裡是記者席我會會沒注意到有委員在現場不好意思有有有預備"},{"start":9107.506,"end":9117.276,"text":"你台北起來不是正咖啦,我們這裡那是正咖。謝謝主席。謝謝主席,我請那個李主委。來請李主委。"},{"start":9127.933,"end":9154.061,"text":"我看了你一整本報告其實公平交易委員會是蠻認真的有實際在做很多事情像你們對於多層次傳銷那這麼多年來你們長期的追蹤、關注那也去處罰我確實有意識他們一些不法的行為但是我覺得還是有很多地方你們比方說像對於"},{"start":9156.483,"end":9177.903,"text":"這個建商啊他們在銷售房屋這個部分利用不實的廣告欺騙那麼消費者那這利用這種資訊不對等利用專業知識的不對等那麼這已經長期以來啊消費者都被這麼的欺負"},{"start":9179.113,"end":9197.837,"text":"最傷腦筋的是說這消費者在買房子這可能是他一輩子的積蓄好不容易才買那麼一戶房子這不是買一包糖果不是買一杯泡沫紅茶那如果這樣被騙了、矇騙了那麼那個損失是非常龐大的那我認為你們在建商的查查跟處罰方面我幾個字形容高舉輕放"},{"start":9209.741,"end":9221.647,"text":"比如說這幾個我收集到的案例像這個所謂的青森院、文心愛樂、新樂雅筑這都你們查到的阿、大植物會、紐約時尚這些阿我舉例啦文心愛樂"},{"start":9229.673,"end":9242.942,"text":"五十億的銷售額五十億你們罰款一百五十萬其他你像說大慈惠十億的銷售額你罰八十萬所以我覺得這些建商根本啊"},{"start":9244.282,"end":9261.367,"text":"不動不癢所以也不當一回事所以他們繼續謀混也繼續欺騙消費者用這種不實誇大像已經很清楚最主要是分區使用明明是工業區他也蓋住宅商業區他也蓋住宅"},{"start":9264.668,"end":9285.232,"text":"然後在他們的廣告上面還打成溫馨的住宅溫馨的套房直接這樣的用語耶就大剌剌的公平交易法第21條很清楚不實廣告因為不實廣告而影響交易決心則這個當然要罰不但要罰而且重罰"},{"start":9291.376,"end":9318.947,"text":"兩千五百萬元捏而且不改善的話可以再處罰五千萬元欸李主委罰兩千五百萬元喔不改善再罰五千萬元我請問啊一個五十億銷售案的房子可能說欸三五個月就要賣我嗎不是啊你處罰他以後他搞不好賣三個月五個月賣半年以上還在賣"},{"start":9320.137,"end":9337.976,"text":"又同樣的廣告又繼續賣那你們後續接著也不乏不乏就任命他繼續蹂躪消費者我們中山區這個大直啊最出名的大灣北段這個案子"},{"start":9339.039,"end":9363.474,"text":"大灣北段好多建商去那邊啃食總共蓋了1880戶他那個就是在所謂的特定商業區上面不能蓋住宅那要蓋住宅可以那麼由建商去變更地目那個要繳相當的回饋金或者回饋條件給政府他不這麼做建商便移形式1880戶"},{"start":9366.616,"end":9392.649,"text":"的購買的市民朋友們長期以來受到後續市政府的追蹤追殺啦要把他們罰款啦連續罰以後還可以斷水斷電李主委人民有免於恐懼的自由好不容易存了一大筆錢畢生的積蓄買一個小窩給全家人安心來"},{"start":9395.728,"end":9396.008,"text":"所以啊"},{"start":9422.847,"end":9438.595,"text":"公平交易委員會如果沒有事實的在該處理的時候介入那就會任命這些惡劣囂張的建商一而再再而三欺負我們的民眾欺負消費者"},{"start":9440.229,"end":9462.291,"text":"這樣的情況一而再再而三的發生還有最近其實這10來年來也都這樣你看滿康滿谷電視上公車廣告上廣播節目上這種不實的藥品廣告食藥署已經追蹤而且還提出了十大違規"},{"start":9464.675,"end":9484.972,"text":"實要的廣告單的清澈．廣告名單清澈．結果這一些啊．我們公平交易委員會竟然怎麼說．他說你們要講一個道理．你說這個主管機關啊．他們有去罰了．所以公平交易委員會就沒有介入．錯了李主委 錯了．"},{"start":9487.253,"end":9500.588,"text":"你本來就應該去裁罰這跟他的主管機關有沒有裁罰他其實無關他的主管機關啊多數也跟你們公平交易委員會一樣怎麼樣勒高舉輕放高高舉起啦"},{"start":9507.247,"end":9511.77,"text":"輕輕放下怎麼知道他輕輕放下你看到他們這些違規的藥品、廣告還在電視、廣播媒體上、主流電視上侵害、強害我們的視覺觀瞻繼續欺騙消費者這就是啊不是嗎所以"},{"start":9529.759,"end":9553.875,"text":"所以我希望你拿出公平交易法第21條重罰這些違規的廠商們才有辦法遏止他們好不好那些違反公平法的這些事業應該予以嚴處我想這也是我們本來就應該要這麼處理好我下次還會繼續問你看從今天開始以後你重處了哪一些好不好好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":9565.506,"end":9581.993,"text":"好,登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢,詢答結束今天沒有書面質詢,如果書面質詢換未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完均,星期三繼續開會,現在休息謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}