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報告只進行詢答這個我要提醒召委"},{"start":2614.668,"end":2629.262,"text":"如果是這樣的話退回報告只進行詢答退回報告就已經失去了召開本次會議的最基本的目的如果是這樣那就沒有辦法開了我提醒召委好謝謝李坤澤委員還沒來要進行程序委員發言"},{"start":2646.651,"end":2659.282,"text":"郭董委員那個退回是有點問題的這樣好不好?我們今天這個不做業務報告就請大家參與那麼NC這邊"},{"start":2666.977,"end":2686.19,"text":"你就這裡面不足的部分,在下一次會議的時候再補充因為國中委員對這個有意見,問你這本啊你這幾個字對國人無法交代啦那我們也尊重國中委員的發言那執政黨昆澤委員的發言我們也尊重好不好"},{"start":2686.892,"end":2713.292,"text":"那你說退回也不好看嘛,是不是?你既然準備這要來,那我們今天在業務報告的部分請各位參閱那部署的部分在下一次好不好,你再補充資料你要弄到國政委員滿意為止,因為什麼?因為你這個文字太少了好不好?那個你就不要發言各位同仁這樣處理可不可以?"},{"start":2714.754,"end":2732.687,"text":"國動委員可以嗎?他在補充好不好?好,我們就照先參閱,我們再進行就參閱,下一日補充好不好?那請陳主委做廣電事業"},{"start":2735.433,"end":2762.914,"text":"申設換照審查程序執行狀況的部分做專題報告好不好?你前面那個就沒有啦我知道我知道,但是他連這個部分請主席歡悅一下在這個換照的過程當中他也沒有說明什麼啊你麥克風拿起來好不好,有沒有麥克風來還是到前面來說明一下,因為要錄音啊"},{"start":2764.878,"end":2773.805,"text":"其實這本門心自問這一本裡面有兩個主題一是業務報告二是換照過程的報告我請問到底換照過程當中你們這裡面寫什麼"},{"start":2785.894,"end":2812.246,"text":"可以不可以告訴我在哪邊你們是避重就輕欸拜託換照才是問題但是你們為什麼都避重就輕呢恍而這個部分但是今天我會提這個我不是在針對NCC而是給所有部會的人不要拿去年的東西這是對立法委員對國會一點不尊重但是你們在這裡的部分真的欸"},{"start":2813.266,"end":2833.385,"text":"你看來看去換照的過程當中也沒有啊所以我不曉得這個是怎麼報告那我也同意主席這些裁定是否就大家參與但是一個座談會一個溝通這個也是一個立法委員跟部會部門來做溝通的當然是可以"},{"start":2834.225,"end":2854.981,"text":"當然可以詢答所以我是認為啦會議規範規定的很清楚只要主席召開形式不拘但是認為不足主席是有權力這樣裁定他怎麼裁我也支持但是這裡面內容真的是缺華嘛那有沒有可能今天就"},{"start":2856.502,"end":2880.353,"text":"這個詢答是談過去或未來要做的事這個也都是一個今天召開會議主要的問題可是這一本當中真的啦將心比心看完以後因為我們很認真去看我們都可以給你算出多少個字一萬三千多個字當中九千多個字都是去年所報告的用詞"},{"start":2881.613,"end":2904.403,"text":"你們真的NCC所有的官員國文這麼差嗎換個形容詞換個用詞不是很好嗎所以我認為如果要參與那同意大家參與那下個禮拜或者朝委不管兩位朝委排個時間我們大家都可以來談可是今天事實上我認為談這些內容"},{"start":2906.804,"end":2916.012,"text":"主委去做報告我認為都不妥當我認為都不妥當所以敬請主席做採檢謝謝謝謝謝謝國產委員尊重然後跟著召委"},{"start":2928.154,"end":2955.291,"text":"等一下還是要請主秘來說明一下相關的議事程序今天業務報告跟專題報告都請主委說不用報告要直接來進行相關的詢討那我再提醒各位今天是業務報告跟專題報告然後主委都不用報告那就失去了本次開會的一個基本目的沒有目的要來開會這個相關的議事程序請主秘說明一下"},{"start":2971.513,"end":2982.682,"text":"今天還有一份這個廣電事業申設換照審查程序暨執行狀況的這個專案報告但是其實我也覺得主委你也不用再專案報告了我想問主委"},{"start":2983.629,"end":3008.636,"text":"待會你可以跟我們說明一下你這個專案報告你待會是照的這個PPT一字一句的去唸還是你會說明過去的真正的執行狀況不然想各位委員去翻閱各位媒體可以參閱這一份所謂的PPT簡報裡面它每一個文字根本就只是把法條放上去而已沒有人知道什麼叫執行狀況來加怎麼換照的內容什麼都沒有"},{"start":3009.156,"end":3020.795,"text":"他裏面只是把所有的條文一字一句的把它放上去我乾脆拜託ACC下次開會前你乾脆發個LINE給我們就好了叫我們去翻閱這個相關的文件"},{"start":3021.721,"end":3038.73,"text":"那沒有必要來報告嘛因為上來報告的時候你也是在把這些程序把這些本來就已經有文字化的東西照稿念一遍的話那我想今天開這個會報告這個東西沒有意義所以我們自己看跟你講的結果是一樣我想這邊委員當然中文程度都很好啦"},{"start":3039.35,"end":3061.177,"text":"不需要特別再由這個主委來報告大家看完之後就知道你的這個文字內容長怎麼樣所以我覺得乾脆就如同趙委所採釋的直接進入巡檔我們直接進入真正的執行狀況來討論不需要看你這整本這樣這麼厚一本這樣子幾頁PPT來把它唸完唸完又花很多時間那其實沒有這個實質意義啦以上謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員下面請許智傑委員發言"},{"start":3073.01,"end":3078.463,"text":"主席大家好我想業務報告裡面有多少重複有多少新的"},{"start":3079.699,"end":3108.234,"text":"行政本來就是一致啊比如說我反詐騙我每一年都要做反詐騙啊我怎麼可以說去年有做反詐騙今年寫的就重複了所以這是很正常的那當然就是說我們在業務報告裡面啊如果是以後可以不用報告就通通懸打那以後每個委員會都不用報告啦大家都看PPT看NINE就好啦所以我想剛剛崑澤委員提到我們還是請祖密說明一下就是說我們該有的會議程序應該如何還是要跟大家報告清楚謝謝"},{"start":3111.363,"end":3117.746,"text":"好,謝謝許志傑委員發言我們歡迎黃國昌委員也到我們交通委員會來程旭委員會,程旭委員沒有發言了吧這樣啦,郭董委員、志傑委員我想國民黨委員也發言啦剛才郭忠偉委員講"},{"start":3137.594,"end":3166.14,"text":"你這本書裡面啊,你看換照的部分九千多個字,潘哲偉你講的不無道理反詐騙,我明天還是講反詐騙,後天還是講反詐騙,問題他這裡面資料重複的太多了重複太多了,根本重點還沒有講到,你怎麼重點沒有講到?你一天室的問題啊,你那個中天52台的問題啊,你官司輸了十幾次了,你要提一提吧,你不能避重就輕"},{"start":3167.512,"end":3191.435,"text":"你不能老是在這邊搔癢啊,有重點遭癢的部分要搔到,你懂我的意思嗎?所以既然我們國民黨也好民眾黨也好,這個意見我們表示尊重好不好?那下一次,下一次的委員會,請NC把功課做好你不要再文操功,今天就報告的部分就暫緩,我們再開始質詢好不好?"},{"start":3194.665,"end":3221.158,"text":"這樣就好啊,你下一次補充嘛,不是補充的意思嗎?你九千個字不要嘛,你再補充九千個字進來嘛,好不好?有一點新的東西出來嘛,你不要老是把那個清朝明朝的東西繼續再炒啊,好不好?你弄得他們都不爽,這樣好不好?你尊重一下啦,好了啦,開始啦,幾點了九點半了,來"},{"start":3224.417,"end":3252.602,"text":"那個尊重一下主席吧現在進行詢答先宣告以下的事項發言時間出席委員6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘委員發言登記在10點30分截止各委員如果有提案的話請到10點鐘以前送到議事組來暫定10點30分休息10分鐘公務員則上不休息現在請登記第一位林沛祥委員發言"},{"start":3255.188,"end":3265.153,"text":"林佩祥委員發言換喔?好,請翁曉琳委員發言主席、各位委員、還有NCC的這個"},{"start":3283.257,"end":3288.687,"text":"官員們大家好 我是翁小玲 那麼先有請陳署委好 陳署委請官員早"},{"start":3296.266,"end":3296.626,"text":"接受國會的監督"},{"start":3320.359,"end":3349.293,"text":"是,那要讓立法院有什麼樣的內容可以監督?您認為業務報告的內容該是些什麼?基本上把我們過去做的還有未來可能想做的事情說明清楚請問這些業務報告跟專題報告在送到立法院之前有經過陳主委您的核定嗎?基本上來講的話當然我有初步看過啦因為最近立法院在開議當中所以說我有初步看過而已那不足的地方各位只交電話我們會虛心接受去把它補充更詳細"},{"start":3350.874,"end":3366.527,"text":"是,如果說這份兩份報告都是經過主委您和參與過才送到立法院的話我必須說您真的是太藐視我們立法院了好,我要講一下這個不僅我們比照我們對比了麻煩下一頁PVT"},{"start":3373.266,"end":3390.604,"text":"對比了今年度的您今天送的業務報告去年就上個會期最後一次11月份時候的業務報告標題全部一樣頁數也一樣就連結語都一模一樣我非常"},{"start":3391.405,"end":3408.41,"text":"指示的看了兩個版本的不同頂多是你們出國這個上下半年跟這個今年的這個出國這個活動不同然後裡面的部分的日期有些修改更誇張的是我在網"},{"start":3409.85,"end":3434.509,"text":"上一個會期的在上一次的這個報告同樣的每一次的報告標題都一樣內容都一樣我不知道你NCC到底是您是怎麼樣帶領NCC的我們當大學教授都知道學生如果說每一次的作業都是寫一模一樣我出不同的問題他寫的作業都是一模一樣這樣子的報告基本上我會退回重寫甚至給他不及格"},{"start":3435.578,"end":3464.517,"text":"包委員這個是業務架構的部分我們把監理機關的業務就是持續性的那當然委員這各方面的指教有需要我們改進我們會去改進但是說他本來他延續性說架構是一樣的好的謝謝您的說明業務架構一樣這是我們都知道但是呢你的報告的內容你的標題你的重點會不一樣而不是說你這架構一成不變那你乾脆告訴我說你直接寫廣電三法就好了你只要寫一個電信管理法就好了這是什麼叫做你的業務架構"},{"start":3468.183,"end":3478.04,"text":"主委,您在NCC八年,擔任NCC主委五年多,委員兩年多,請問您在這八年裡面,您認為您最重要的建樹是什麼?"},{"start":3478.851,"end":3496.927,"text":"很多啊,包括電信部分來講,比如5G的建設,然後電信事業的合併,然後整個廣電秩序的建立,還有這些公平上限價的這個維持等等。好,謝謝。我在想說,大家可能不會認為這些是您的建樹,當然一想到您的建樹,大概不會就是把中天新聞台下架。"},{"start":3497.908,"end":3520.585,"text":"然後護航進新聞台申設然後再把華視新聞台上架到52台放任三例入股中加我想這是一般社會大眾想到您在NCC主委裡面單日做過什麼事情我覺得這是蠻重要的這個印象今天既然我們不審你的這個"},{"start":3525.389,"end":3537.42,"text":"提的業務報告跟這個專題報告那接下來我們就來做些口試好了請問在整個換照程序的部分諮詢委員會議"},{"start":3540.68,"end":3557.52,"text":"目前的委員的名單有公開嗎?當然沒有公開為什麼不公開?這個基本上委員他本來是專業的參與我們要保護委員避免外面的壓力我想在諮詢委員會議現在已經法制化了明訂在衛星廣播電視法裡面"},{"start":3559.002,"end":3566.888,"text":"所有法制化的會議、諮詢會議委員名單都要公開,包含輸入會、法規會、全權保障委員會等等我認為你不公開、你不敢公開諮詢委員會的名單代表你是請遵照我的諮詢權,我已經再三的強調,我不希望你跟我搶答"},{"start":3577.777,"end":3605.779,"text":"我要說的就是諮詢委員會議的委員名單不公開就代表你這個中間你安插自己的人你不敢讓這些諮詢委員這個以權責相符的態度然後公開自己所做的一個評斷所以呢我在這邊希望呼籲要求你們要公開諮詢委員會議的名單另外北高行判決之後撤銷NCC的處分請問你們有做什麼處理嗎"},{"start":3607.11,"end":3629.696,"text":"委員是問哪一件?中天新聞台我們上訴了你們上訴了,你們有仔細的閱讀北高型判決嗎?當然有啊是,然後呢他要他裡面怎麼說,你們的109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準還在嗎?還適用嗎?這個我們都像了都一樣,這個評分標準都是一樣的,包括各種像中天的中二台或是其他新聞台的方式都一樣"},{"start":3631.001,"end":3652.566,"text":"北高型判決裏面講得非常清楚你109年的一般頻道換照審查評分標準就是違反了這個換照審查辦法可是你們卻沒有檢討而且還這個一意孤行還在試用我認為說這個是非常糟糕的一件事情而且不要忘記了北高型法院判決裏面還有在講"},{"start":3654.827,"end":3665.109,"text":"你們準備好了國賠79億嗎?針對國家賠償的部分你們有心理準備嗎?如果說這個案子到了最高型法院判決你們敗訴之後陳主委你要負連帶賠償責任嗎?你是主責為什麼會沒有這個問題?為什麼沒有這個問題?現在北高型法院"},{"start":3678.152,"end":3681.895,"text":"已經宣判你們離署份已經被撤銷現在縱使在上訴並不代表你們沒有敗訴的可能難道NCC內部都沒有準備都沒有思考嗎如果說你們真的敗訴之後就國家賠償"},{"start":3695.77,"end":3697.311,"text":"請問一下你們進新聞台現在有駐外記者嗎?"},{"start":3724.619,"end":3742.215,"text":"什麼叫駐外記者?你說駐外國的記者嗎?來,我們那個請那個,來,我們那個內容處處長所以主委你連你自己做的處分,你做的負擔你都不知道這是事務性嗎?這是這麼重要,你今天科語業者一個這麼重要的義務為什麼負擔?那當然啊,所以說我跟委員講說請我們內容處處長跟委員報告嘛"},{"start":3749.261,"end":3749.901,"text":"我現在問就是說進電視新聞台他們有駐外記者了嗎?"},{"start":3775.981,"end":3792.928,"text":"他們每年的住外經費有提供給你NCC去查核嗎?經費住外經費沒有啊這個就沒有這個問題啊沒有請你回去好好看一下你主持的付負擔沒有查核這個住外經費的問題啊是你們沒有叫他提供嗎?沒有啊這個經費住外記者的經費這個部分沒有吧我真的希望NCC你回去好好看看你們當時做了什麼付負擔你們可以這樣子這個放縱"},{"start":3806.031,"end":3820.23,"text":"進新聞台所以這代表你們就是護航你們寫了一大堆的負擔寫了一大堆的付款沒有意義那個只是作秀而已只是讓大家覺得說你好像對進新聞台沒有給予他一些負擔"},{"start":3820.871,"end":3844.841,"text":"包括我們最近來講的話像所謂自播所謂爭論節目這個我們都有去處理我現在講的不是這個我現在講的是你每一個負擔他到底有沒有做好因為時間的關係我想今天還有很多的委員要質詢所以我希望是不是可以請主席才是請NCC將進新聞台的所有付付款的執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明不好意思現在是我在講不是你在說你不用跟我說明了我的時間不夠了"},{"start":3849.463,"end":3871.544,"text":"麻煩待會請主席財事會後請NCC將新聞台的付款所有的執行狀況的各項紀錄以及證明都要送到立法院給每個委員參考以上謝謝要送什麼他說你要把這個今後你對這個新聞台的部分你要送給委員參考"},{"start":3872.703,"end":3882.752,"text":"如果是個案有營業秘密的話我們沒有辦法這樣送請問這有什麼營業秘密這涉及公益這不是營業秘密你去看看資訊公開政府資訊公開法裡面怎麼樣規定你不要跟我騙我現在不用再說"},{"start":3893.24,"end":3898.262,"text":"我只是要求針對禁新聞台裡面的所做的12項負擔以及12項負保留廢紙權現在禁新聞台的執行狀況如何我現在是要確定到底陳主委有沒有護航禁新聞台"},{"start":3919.468,"end":3920.128,"text":"我們都有在進行啦這樣吧你們會後陳主委"},{"start":3938.698,"end":3939.558,"text":"謝謝恩委員的發言下一位請葉元芝委員發言"},{"start":3967.092,"end":3994.86,"text":"麻煩請陳耀祥主委謝謝陳主委請謝謝主委我想先問一下因為今天衛星廣播電公會有提出的一些訴求包括要落實媒體自主還有要修正一些不合時宜的廣電法規我想問一下主委你的態度是什麼我們現在目前廣電商法也內部在討論當中有那個修法的版本所以這個對衛星廣播電公會什麼時候會送到我們院會"},{"start":3995.905,"end":4011.034,"text":"那可能要等到下會期吧因為我們這個4月底4月底的時候就要提新的4個名額那個主委因為大家都知道這個科技日新月異我想你當NC主委應該也非常清楚為什麼廣電三法趕快修就是因為數位匯流嘛"},{"start":4011.734,"end":4033.149,"text":"所以慧琉現在你對於電視的管制已經跟不上時代了所以要做一個主委我會知道你也快退休了不要有帶退老兵的那種態度該做就要做好不好因為你也講不出一個時程那我今天就針對衛星公會他幾件事情我想跟你討論一下NCC組織法的第一條第一句話是什麼"},{"start":4034.726,"end":4053.581,"text":"組織法第一條議題就是我們在黨政軍啊媒體制度發展第一句話啦第一句話叫落實憲法言論自由啦好不好言論自由是本來第一個就是最重要嘛對不對那什麼叫言論自由言論自由就是人民有講話的自由啊人民有講話的自由嘛包括他可以在很多平台上講話嘛對不對那"},{"start":4055.663,"end":4083.178,"text":"所以你不能夠用莫須有的罪名去規範他甚至不讓他有講話的權利對吧沒有莫須有的問題那不能隨便就管制他嗎對吧我們叫法律審訊委內我想請教一下請問一下無線廣播電視台我們一般管制的理論基礎是什麼在國外在基本上叫稀有資源的稀有資源謝謝稀有資源在FCC在69年的一個紅屍案已經被判是不可思議的你知道嗎"},{"start":4083.638,"end":4106.223,"text":"那是FCC的問題因為NCC就是根據FCC來的嘛那我們NCC為什麼會選FCC那是因為我們認為說過去的行政院新聞局他兼具行政院的化妝師有可能會求人兼裁判嘛所以才成立了NCC對不對所以他是從FCC來的那FCC現在都已經認為頻道稀有已經過時了為什麼我們NCC還要這樣堅持"},{"start":4107.523,"end":4128.473,"text":"沒有 基本上來講他頻道稀有那個部分是在無線的部分有線的那個如果說一般衛星平台那這太好了齁一般我們是認為說對於無線的管制要比有線嚴格嘛因為他有用到頻譜嘛那有線是一個商業機制自己拉線嘛那如果FCC都已經認為無線頻譜現在不需要管制因為不稀有了"},{"start":4129.053,"end":4152.358,"text":"那為什麼我們現在還要對於無線電視跟有線電視的管制怎麼樣但是他不是以這個為理論基礎去管制嗎那我現在我其實不是要跟你討論無線電視啦因為剛剛我們講的是衛星電視衛星電視是大部分都是在有線電視上架嘛那現在有線電視以前在數位科技不發達的時候是100個頻道嘛那現在最多可以到幾個頻道"},{"start":4153.238,"end":4180.456,"text":"有大概300多個頻道喔300多個嘛那科技日新月異可能不止嘛對不對所以有可能大概五六百個頻道都有可能嘛你如果頻道數過多的話就有可能那所以基本上在這樣子頻道稀有已經不存在的情況之下我個人認為你現在用現行的廣電法規去管那些頻道已經不合時宜了特別是特別是如果說再用一些先設建再劃把的方式去關一家電視台我認為是非常不恰當沒有沒有"},{"start":4181.356,"end":4206.583,"text":"那我接下來就跟你討論這家電視台嘛我看這家電視台嘛當初主委你關中天電視台的記者會我也看了啦你開宗明義講的就是因為他受到檢舉非常多還有就是他被裁罰很多對不對違規了25件嘛還有內控機制事件後面啦你之前講的是你之前講的是違規比較多嘛對吧違規也很多第一個齁檢舉的部分我個人認為非常不合理啦"},{"start":4206.943,"end":4233.501,"text":"今天如果說我要讓一家電視台關閉的話我動員人家去檢舉那家電視台就成為你NCC關台的一個標準欸第二你所謂的裁罰25件剛剛委員也問了啊15件NCC已經敗訴了欸沒有15件敗訴15件已經敗訴沒有沒有沒有中天只贏兩件我們是14件勝訴或確定我是說訴訟當中的訴訟當中的敗訴你有上訴我知道只有10件而已喔你有上訴我知道沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":4233.922,"end":4235.884,"text":"請問一下有一個有意見的是這樣子有一個民主的謝寒冰"},{"start":4248.883,"end":4264.928,"text":"他評論說農委會失職陳吉仲是最差的主委因為針對九孔的價格農委會居然用市價來講產地價你知道嗎知道這是嗎這有沒有落實事實查證的問題當然有啊法院認為有啊重點是說那是名嘴講的話嘛你怎麼會去罰電視台呢"},{"start":4268.789,"end":4292.809,"text":"那我想請教你啦,今天林宥昌認識吧?內政部長你認識吧?你朋友吧?林宥昌曾經公開去指控盧秀燕說盧秀燕賣帝王因為盧秀燕在五年的時候賣了37.5萬的帝對吧?結果實際上是5萬那林宥昌你不罰他,然後你去罰報導林宥昌這句話的電視台合理嗎?沒有,我們沒有去任何的檢舉案說在林宥昌這句話所以只要有人去檢舉這件事情你就要罰那個報導林宥昌的電視台喔?"},{"start":4295.051,"end":4296.591,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":4319.876,"end":4335.723,"text":"兩分鐘就更正了啦你如果說隨便一個人口誤就要罰那個電視台我們這太可怕了誰沒有口誤過啊賴清德口誤過啊賴清德把賴品瑜講成賴柏宇欸他說下架無私謠誰沒有口誤過我跟你講主委我剛剛講的那段演戲非常清楚第一因為我時間有點到不要佔我時間太久"},{"start":4346.647,"end":4372.985,"text":"一、現在你們管制媒體的理論基礎已經不在了第二、網路時代所有的人都可以透過電視去接網路啦實際上現在很多網路的影響力比衛星電視沒有說都差不多了啦然後第三現在你如果說可以用關台的方式來前置言論自由你先設建再發法沒有標準的話台灣就沒有言論自由這已經違反你NCC組織法第一條保障人民言論自由"},{"start":4376.687,"end":4378.009,"text":"好 謝謝葉言之委員下一位請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":4399.226,"end":4412.897,"text":"本席先宣告齁大概10點半以後我們有目前有收到臨時提案10點半休息以後來處理臨時提案謝謝好請繼續好謝謝張偉一樣我們請陳主委陳主委請館長"},{"start":4422.691,"end":4438.612,"text":"主委早 主委先前的一份這個媒體的報導跟專訪裡面主委提到說這個自己是代退弟兄所以講話比較大聲但是我要提醒一下主委你當過兵嗎這個代退弟兄但是提醒五個字老兵八字親"},{"start":4440.298,"end":4468.064,"text":"這個最後這個階段雖然你即將要卸任但是該做的事情還是要做上週的時候這個我想陳建元院長在答覆這個羅志祥委員資訊的時候講說他也認為這個新聞台不應該由政府來關閉那我們要提到其實這個這幾年大家最關注的就是這個中天新聞台被這個NCC這個換照審查不過那當然他就關閉了嘛那我想這個北高興也做出了相關的判決當初也判決說要撤銷這個處分"},{"start":4469.844,"end":4492.655,"text":"那我想問一下我們NCC對於北高型作為這個作為這個撤銷處分你有什麼看法你有什麼檢討我們這個在上訴當中而且我們認為法官對於我們這個評分的標準並沒有掌握得清楚所以我們上訴最高行政法院我想根據北高型的判決書裡面法院在判決這個事情的時候他都是依據你們NCC提供的標準"},{"start":4493.115,"end":4513.765,"text":"所以我們今天就想問的是說為什麼法院的標準跟你NCC的標準有差異認知這麼大這個就是說準用的問題我想我也跟委員報告一下法律上所謂準用到底是準用到什麼範圍這個有沒有管制財產的問題對 這就是我們今天為什麼不想讓你報告的原因因為你看你現在講得出你的理論基礎但是我們看到那一份簡報裡面"},{"start":4515.246,"end":4534.627,"text":"問的是執行狀況跟業務報告你們是依據什麼去上訴你們是依據什麼樣的理論再去跟北高興再上訴一次為什麼今天我們要講這個事情因為你今天用的都是人民納稅錢啊NCC編列了這麼多預算打官司當初成立NCC是希望你們保障言論自由"},{"start":4535.748,"end":4536.769,"text":"同樣的法院也不認同這樣的標準"},{"start":4555.405,"end":4584.753,"text":"所以我今天要講的是說今天你要上訴的話那就是要問你們的標準在哪裡嘛為什麼同樣標準同樣標準法院也不認同你今天這個標準所以我今天要求是說你今天你要提上訴我們也不能有什麼意見因為你是這個行政機關你要做這樣的裁量但是你今天要提出上訴的時候你要對立法院來說明你用什麼要標準我們今天要看到的是內容為什麼你還要提上訴我想你是法律"},{"start":4584.953,"end":4587.234,"text":"沒有15連敗的問題我們目前已經申訴14個案件中天才申訴兩個案件"},{"start":4611.544,"end":4635.28,"text":"那這些案件,現在有的議審也剩啊?有的議審也剩啊?跟委員報告一下,基本上來講,充電換照不是只有裁法這個部分,它其實最嚴重是大股東介入整個新聞台,讓新聞台的內控如果你要講大股東介入新聞台,還有另外案子啦,我想待會兒也會講,但是我們今天先針對這個法院判決,我想了解NCEC的這個態度,就像我們剛剛提到的,主委我要提醒啦,老兵八字清啦"},{"start":4635.92,"end":4663.674,"text":"這個你今天竟然還是要堅持要上訴那當然我們也只能尊重但是我們要求你到底憑什麼要依據什麼來要求你要上訴那這個部分因為我要講今天你上訴的時候的經費並不是花你陳主委的錢你今天上訴的經費是花NCC編列的人民納稅錢中天也不是我的案子中天是整個國家的案子這是我們NCC所以你不是應該受我們監督今天才要求說你要提報告出來嗎今天為什麼不讓你上來報告今天為什麼大家對你的報告不滿意"},{"start":4664.054,"end":4690.059,"text":"就是你的內容裡面 完全沒有聽到社會關注的幾個不管是中天也好 不管是中加也好 不管是三立的議題節目也好 今天事也好在那份報告裡面 完全都沒有所以才急著進行詢答 所以我們才要求說你下一次還是要提份 完整的書面報告那主委我再問你一件事情當然這個東西是個猜想你想想看 如果今天我們常常講言論自由 我們應該保障百分之百的言論自由"},{"start":4690.999,"end":4711.121,"text":"如果你覺得今天鄭楠榮在事的話他還會去關電視台嗎沒有真正的百分之百的言論自由如果你說殺人放火這種恐嚇這種言論怎麼會是言論自由呢這違法嘛這當然不是這當然不是言論自由啊你侵害了人身安全當然不是言論自由啊那言論自由今天電視台要怎麼樣殺人放火你把你把這個不同言論不同立場的電視台"},{"start":4712.342,"end":4736.158,"text":"市委跟殺人、放火一樣你確定這是你要講的話嗎所以說為什麼要事實查證跟公平委員尤其事實查證的部分為什麼會有裁法的問題你的事實查證來主委按照至少以這個個案來講你的事實查證很多到後面都被法院來判決或否定了而且如果就像我們剛剛提到了如果今天任何一個人在電台講話你就要去裁法電台的話"},{"start":4737.279,"end":4738.7,"text":"你的判斷標準是什麼?是不是事實嗎?"},{"start":4760.76,"end":4782.773,"text":"事實作為認定的問題嘛,法院也是一樣的問題那我就問你啊,林佑昌講的是事實嗎?這我不曉得啊,因為我基本上來講林佑昌就承認他錯啊我沒有承認他錯,這個就要調查嘛,是不是事實這個就要調查所以他講了之後他自己承認錯誤,那如果今天有人檢舉他第一時間講的言論,送到NCC裡面,你會認定他是事實還是不是事實?阿如果他,我這個不曉得"},{"start":4783.713,"end":4784.794,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":4804.187,"end":4828.128,"text":"判決裡面NCC的這個很多的這個裁決其實是敗訴的所以我想了解NCC對這個敗訴的看法那你們說你們還是要繼續上訴所以我們再次的要求那今天這個話題先到這邊齁我要求是說你們NCC你要求要上訴那你上訴的原因是什麼你應該要提供說明給本會的所有的委員這個要說明我們會說明這個本來就是我們應該要說明的部分"},{"start":4828.909,"end":4850.67,"text":"你就沒有說明嗎?所以才要求你要說明嗎?因為今天的專題報告要寫到什麼執行狀況因為這個可能不是個案因為這個個案進行當中的部分在法院的範圍跟委員說明清楚應該也很清楚說當代這個社會上大家關心的議題是哪些重大的案子你們自己常常在看每天在看媒體的報導應該也很清楚大家都幫你整理好了"},{"start":4851.391,"end":4866.908,"text":"哪些大案子是這個社會所關注的那我們也本來也期待在今天的報告裡面能夠看到但是很可惜沒有所以說我想主委我想待會大家所有的委員會講來中天一定是這個案子嘛中加案子一定也是有一定有嘛"},{"start":4867.168,"end":4896.42,"text":"禁電是一定也有嗎?還有三菱新聞的事情一定也有嗎?中間沒有申設換照的議題了中間不是申設換照的議題如果說禁電是那是申設的問題沒有那還有很多的議題同一個事情啊系統牌的問題啊這個今天我沒辦法跟你花時間討論了因為剩下時間不多所以我是要求說你們在這個報告裡面應該具體的提出真正的做法你們想要怎麼做那送來這邊審我們立法院同不同意嗎?大家願不願意接受這樣的說法嗎?因為你有你的主張沒問題但是我們也有我們的主張這叫言論自由"},{"start":4897.16,"end":4897.3,"text":"主委"},{"start":4924.128,"end":4952.017,"text":"國父啊,孫中山先生12次失敗成功了你們打官司輸了15次,你還繼續打?你們還打?那你們失敗的原因是什麼?我也不知道欸你們就投降吧15次了,欸你訴訟費用錢很多是不是?明年審議算我把你訴訟費用全部給你砍掉,你們自己出錢喔"},{"start":4953.496,"end":4978.176,"text":"哪有這樣搞的黃委員剛才講你不要亂登嘛,盧秀慧委員根本沒有那麼多賣那麼多地,你要寫那麼多地你們要有一點舉證責任嘛,是不是?你新聞有點責任啦你不要照登啊,講誰跟誰通姦你也把他登上去沒有這回事,你亂寫誰貪汙,沒有貪汙應該寫上去亂寫"},{"start":4982.475,"end":4999.695,"text":"你要有舉證的責任嘛好不好,你們注意一下,你們這個新聞沒那麼自由欸好不好你是別人在那邊登的話,你就搞死人家,你自己都沒事喔好不好,請坐囉下一位請林國成委員發言"},{"start":5010.734,"end":5013.996,"text":"好 謝謝主席請陳主委主委請很好好 主委齁其實特別跟你解釋啦你們門心自問確實不是不讓你報告確實內容真的要拜託你們我們做不好的地方也謝謝委員的指教我們會去改正那我跟他跟你談一些感性的問題"},{"start":5041.482,"end":5062.177,"text":"主委以前在做教授的時候據我個人對你所了解你在當教授的時候是好教授可是你現在當了主委以後真的我認為你不是好主委還沒有回答我請你回答你才回答第一個"},{"start":5063.444,"end":5092.108,"text":"有幾句一個媒體我看了寫的文章我看了非常感動那我要請教我們主委說媒體壟斷是民族就會存人這句話你同意吧我當然同意另外一句話就是思想控制跟操作比飛彈還可怕這個你也同意吧當然非常同意"},{"start":5093.22,"end":5121.053,"text":"另外還有這個寫者他講經濟強權跟政治力如果直步掏空或摧毀變成台灣民主的根基這個你同意吧我問這三個重點主委你知道是誰講的嗎所以我看起來就非常諷刺欸"},{"start":5122.469,"end":5149.716,"text":"沒有啊 我們都是在做這個事情的 是所以我剛才已經講囉你當教授的時候我非常尊重你因為可以講出這一套的理論就代表什麼你對於媒體公正等等你是有概念的可是當了主委以後看起來你看看多少個我們的委員都國會裡面都對於你質疑為什麼"},{"start":5151.38,"end":5169.033,"text":"主委 我跟你講 我一輪錢給你 我用我的時間給你去做改黨為什麼產生這麼大的變化 跟這麼大的落差根委員報告 基本上來講的話 我們是依照我剛剛主委 那個委員所講的這個原則跟方向去執行"},{"start":5170.114,"end":5173.697,"text":"我告訴你換個位置換個腦袋不是只有你但是我要呼籲你"},{"start":5187.987,"end":5188.487,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":5209.978,"end":5230.447,"text":"一個案件我剛才不是主委一句話說要怎麼做就怎麼做 那就被你所長知道我們合意是本來整個程序上很多人好啦 我跟你說 你的立場我很清楚但是不要忘了 很明顯既成事實所有的人對NCC都不知道要怎麼下定論慶祝藍蘇 只有台灣人民覺得NCC有"},{"start":5237.33,"end":5262.321,"text":"只是說 有只是沒有 稍後再看起來有又對老百姓的傷害 又對媒體是要管理 不是要傷害所以 我覺得啦 我個人的感覺NCC是應該要保護媒體 替老百姓要有公正媒體的作為但是我跟你說啊 你做教授的時候你講這些話都主席啊 我也支持啊但是你做主委所做的"},{"start":5265.882,"end":5280.999,"text":"所作所為是反差太大出入太大所以注意我沒有要跟你說這個接下來人家在說台灣人說一句話因為我也知道你也是"},{"start":5282.453,"end":5309.173,"text":"鄉下可以做到教授可以做到這個主委說實在也是有你的努力但是人死老命後死老賠這是我們台灣人最重要的我現在要問我們主委我們主委你現在喔所有的官員裡面主委我跟你說喔你的滿意度是最低的"},{"start":5310.558,"end":5330.996,"text":"阿你齁對面啊反彈最大的就是你就是你所以主委我是提供這這是依法有計有數計的我要提供給你去做參考不要說陳耀祥以前教授大家尊敬他但是當了陳耀祥主委以後"},{"start":5332.217,"end":5333.098,"text":"中廣也是這樣,我們不是要民調比賽"},{"start":5349.099,"end":5363.394,"text":"民意代表就有義務要提醒你民意代表要提供知性讓主委去作為你未來如何施政的一個參考所以我這是讓你做參考接下來接下來"},{"start":5364.403,"end":5387.284,"text":"有一個比較敏感但是事情都已經發生當初你在應徵NCC委員的時候有一個總統府密件那裡面寫說寫說什麼呢也就是說能配合處理中天有沒有這回事"},{"start":5388.544,"end":5396.229,"text":"沒有這個事情沒有這個事情我也是跟委員我看你媒體電話怎麼寫沒有沒有沒有這有就有沒有就沒有你沒有的東西我也可是我會感覺是說無風不起浪啦但是沒關係事情過了但是總是要水落雛屍愛紅感覺說沒有你就要叫為什麼你都不去候人我也感覺到很奇怪那這個也無所謂事情過後真的沒有這個事情真的沒有這個事情好"},{"start":5416.824,"end":5426.941,"text":"那我當然我一定相信你啦齁我一定相信你但是真的很多坊間包括媒體都議論紛紛啦"},{"start":5428.874,"end":5442.14,"text":"所以我剛才才跟你講這個後勢老婆、人勢老娘所以不要因為當了官然後連你的娘就炒掉這沒有必要來來來主席來來來主委來我再跟你請教一下剛才我們的同仁都有講啦"},{"start":5450.504,"end":5471.234,"text":"你們在訴訟NCC所有訴訟的案件比工程單位還多為什麼沒有沒有比工程單位還多好來你如果要逼這個我跟你說我跟你講喔五年前成長八倍的訴訟會為什麼我跟你說喔一千三百一千三百一十萬訴訟會"},{"start":5474.013,"end":5485.397,"text":"我給委員報告一下好不好當然中間這樣有影響有影響第二個是什麼第二個我們都是黨政軍的議題啦好 那沒關係來來來來我問題給你點出來主委你們就要去檢討為什麼五年來你的訴訟會會這麼多來最後一個"},{"start":5493.3,"end":5508.047,"text":"中加案是大家的這個議論紛紛啊對不對好那沒有關係比較敏感的你們現在中加案已經開滑嘛阿為什麼只有開滑賣家阿買家都不需要"},{"start":5508.447,"end":5509.728,"text":"我拜託你下個禮拜或者你們重新寫的時候我拜託你"},{"start":5526.838,"end":5535.863,"text":"中加開華山立不開華你要解釋清楚同一個合約同一個案子同一個違規事實為什麼只開賣方那買方不開華我告訴你注意"},{"start":5542.446,"end":5546.091,"text":"不能說他跟你關係比較好你就不開罰 這行政不中立欸我真的蠻期待你的陳教授"},{"start":5558.973,"end":5577.715,"text":"的風範要拿出來最後只剩下7月份希望幾個月當中做一個做一個真正有擔當的NCC的主委好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝林國成委員下一位請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":5590.99,"end":5592.933,"text":"主席好 有請陳主委好 主委請委員好"},{"start":5602.082,"end":5628.839,"text":"主委好,剛才聽到您講說NCC作為獨立機關那國家通訊傳播委員會作為獨立機關理應依法行政那獨立行使職權但近年來NCC未能保持中立以及獨立行使職權已經造成了信任危機那陳主委在您任內多起案件備受爭議包括撤銷中天電視換照案還有禁電視執照審查案尤其中天撤照案還主動挺華視公開呼籲給公廣"},{"start":5632.392,"end":5653.067,"text":"集團新聞頻道一個機會也在前年推動有侵犯言論自由疑慮的數位中介服務法造成過半民意訪談而後行政院暫緩推動那我們看到這一張簡報竟有72.3%的受訪民眾認為主委您應該下台也讓你組長的NCC不被信任度高"},{"start":5654.935,"end":5682.808,"text":"過半民眾不相信NCC是獨立公正的機關在民主社會中當政府機關不被人民信任的話是一種危機那主委你的爭議之一讓NCC公權力干涉到新聞台的新聞自由造成寒蟬效應那尊重新聞自由是民主國家政府機關必須秉持的原則同意嗎我們本來是獨立機關就依照法律依法去行政去監理做監理所以這沒有什麼這個問題了當然各界的意見我們都尊重了"},{"start":5683.368,"end":5712.931,"text":"那跟委員報告一下,特別剛剛委員有提到這個所謂的《仲介法》《仲介法》當時是為了很多事解決包括我們很多的網路犯罪、炸機或是其他的像性癮像兒少保護的議題其實《仲介法》我們當時只是還在徵詢階段當然外界有很多不同的聲音以後我們就是說我們也把它就停止希望在外界跟社會都溝通完以後再來處理這個議題所以後來包括很多性癮像這個部分也是透過個別立法去通過的"},{"start":5713.231,"end":5714.012,"text":"指揮不斷主委您有任何反省"},{"start":5728.652,"end":5743.946,"text":"有啊,我們基本上呢,我們跟外界多回應,一直在回應當中那只是說,因為這信者恆信,不信者恆不信,就變成這個議題嘛那民主社會裡面本來各種不同意見都有嘛有不同意見這個才是我們民主社會一個最珍貴的地方嘛"},{"start":5744.586,"end":5771.254,"text":"在上週五的時候本黨委員在質詢行政院院長陳院長的時候他說是否認同新聞台跟節目不該由政府去關台那後來陳院長也鬆口表示認同因為主委的公信力被質疑當時質詢的委員沒有讓您回答那這裡是交通委員會今天的議程正是跟我們國家通訊傳播委員會業務報告有關那現在請主委回答那是否認同新聞台跟節目不應該由政府去關台跟委員報告一下"},{"start":5772.114,"end":5797.78,"text":"這個就是說要不要有換照制度這個問題其實重點就在這個部分比如說我們現在在網路上因為沒有拿執照也沒有換照的問題你一個網紅或誰要都OK但是為什麼要換照制度這個部分就是政府去把關的議題就是說政府要不要透過在一定的法律授權底下對這些相關的市場去做一定的把關那當時陳院長在連續被問6次的情況下最後收口是爛頭那主委您呢"},{"start":5798.32,"end":5799.241,"text":"請主委回答認同還是不認同"},{"start":5821.774,"end":5846.929,"text":"那有很多的前提啦認同不認同這很多的前提OK好那獨立機關的人士受任期保障在違反相關法令的時候不管是誰執政都不可以直接解任NCC委員之職務那獨立機關人受憲法體制下之制衡跟監督那立法院對獨立機關之監督也是憲政秩序下之批要陳主委您有不少爭議之外那在上屆國會就被批評"},{"start":5847.469,"end":5869.657,"text":"不尊重國會、藐視國會那行政機關本來就應該要對立法院負責上屆發生過官員藐視國會的那些案例也讓過去完全執政的民進黨遭受到不負責任阿拔的批評也讓過去立法院過半的民進黨委員背負著完全執政、完全護航的包袱請問主委是不是因為您的任期快結束了就對國會的監督不在意"},{"start":5870.037,"end":5886.906,"text":"沒有我們在一個位置每一天做到盡責盡職本來行政機關接受立法院機關立法機關的這個監督這個是憲法裡面所規定的我們也沒有藐視國會可能在行政跟立法的溝通或監督的過程裡面有些意見不一樣但是這沒有藐視國會的議題"},{"start":5889.036,"end":5910.972,"text":"OK那上一屆民進黨立院席次過半這一屆席次減少並會過半沒有辦法像過去一樣護航著主委那主委的任期 主委的任期到7月底只要還在位子上的一天就得面對新國會的監督這是不分政黨不分黨派的委員都對您的喊話請問您要怎麼做調整呢"},{"start":5913.395,"end":5919.909,"text":"就是做到最後一天你們有監督我們就該來報告阿你們有說明你們委員有一問題我們剛才要回答就是這樣阿"},{"start":5920.566,"end":5921.187,"text":"主委您認為你有哪些地方要做檢討呢?例如在我們"},{"start":5947.33,"end":5975.35,"text":"在您的任期結束之前,面對新一屆的國會改變自己的負面評價,您要做出哪一些改變呢?其實比如說像黨政軍的議題我們要不要處理那比如說我們換照制度要如何更確實、比較落實有些哪些東西要入法還有我們很多比如說事實查證的部分來講要如何去精進的議題那當然還有很多電信的議題因為時間的關係可能就沒有辦法跟委員一起一報告說明清楚我們在業務報告裡面會再跟委員說明清楚OK,那我希望可以在業務報告裡面看到,謝謝"},{"start":5978.959,"end":6005.96,"text":"好,謝謝邱若驊委員的發言下一位請林俊憲委員發言欸,放上沒關係啊你不要來踩欸好,謝謝主席本席邀請我們NCC陳主委好,陳主委"},{"start":6012.029,"end":6036.499,"text":"委員好委員好各位這個詐騙喔詐騙這個時代是讓很多人民生物痛絕那其實很多方面啦其實需要團隊合作啦也需要NCC也需要速發部啦這是前幾天發生的一個案例啦你知道現在科技有進步有那個AI的語音科技公司嘛當然有有個嫌犯啦他就下單啦"},{"start":6037.919,"end":6060.967,"text":"他用五萬元去客製化一個詐騙電話AI機器模組那這個AI機器模組他都可以自動打了一百萬通電話然後呢他根據民眾在電話裡面答覆的那個內容AI會自動把有興趣的民眾抓出來然後他再發簡訊去釣魚有個民眾就因為這樣子"},{"start":6064.417,"end":6092.035,"text":"他誤信以為可以投資股票賺錢匯了2700萬也可以說是一畢生積蓄都沒有了所以面對未來的新的科技我們希望NCC能夠有相關的對策尤其像這種AI電話詐騙的你知道現在詐騙案案件我給主委看一下詐騙案件節節升高回到上一頁就是詐騙的件數"},{"start":6095.282,"end":6121.636,"text":"主委你有看嗎?詐騙的金額啦現在一年啦大概都有三萬五千件以上啦那受害的金額啊也逐年升高啦對不對你看2022年七十億啊去年啊就會突破八十億了好那你知道現在什麼詐騙案啊最多嗎?那個應該是網路的投資詐欺第一個投資詐欺啊"},{"start":6123.564,"end":6131.473,"text":"投資,他不一定在網路啦,網路都不是你管而已。現在詐騙案最多的就投資詐欺案啦,佔了快30%啦。我看那個財訊連謝金閣都自己登廣告啦,自律救濟啦。"},{"start":6140.506,"end":6141.186,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6161.465,"end":6161.825,"text":"主委知道誰在從事詐騙嗎?"},{"start":6182.464,"end":6183.385,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6212.486,"end":6213.587,"text":"現在最容易受害者最多也是年輕人"},{"start":6237.438,"end":6265.364,"text":"因為網路重度使用啦 都在網路裡贏啦我們以前覺得老人黃黃好騙 沒有啦年輕人也很好騙 你來看啦現在受害者啊 一樣啊 也是集中在年輕人啦這被害人喔 被害人被害人在40歲以內啊 大概7成在7成受害者是40歲以內年輕人所以在網路上 為什麼速發部很重要 為什麼ACC很重要你看現在這種AI語音生成器啊"},{"start":6266.325,"end":6283.631,"text":"他可以自動打幾百萬通電話然後他可以根據你怎麼回答他就知道你有沒有興趣你聽幾秒你聽很久講很久就表示你有興趣嘛然後他事後再用簡訊丟回去給你像那邊那個北愛林就因為這樣啦一次兩次匯了2700萬你看看像這樣的詐騙案啦"},{"start":6288.069,"end":6295.746,"text":"未來啊 因為科技的進步啊 現在越來越可怕了我們希望NCC啊 像這種AI雲電競照片 你們有什麼辦法處理啊"},{"start":6298.001,"end":6325.784,"text":"我們這個也是要配合其他部會大家一起處理的因為AI這個層面齁比如說像深層式AI這個部分那怎麼利用既然犯罪集團用AI來做詐欺政府在防治過程要用AI來做防禦嘛那這個部分來講的話我們需要國科會還有需要那個刑事警察局大家一起共同來配合還有當然最重要是還有包括數位部一起來處理這個問題還有警管會不過這樣已經有案例發生了我希望大家政府的腳步要快一點那另外齁"},{"start":6328.117,"end":6328.897,"text":"我告訴你喔 主委"},{"start":6352.099,"end":6370.807,"text":"你每一次在你任內啦基本上照理講修這個法是你任內很重要的一個工作很可惜啦你看你自己寫的報告裡面啊廣電三法你說要今年年底啦2024年12月才報行政院OTT啊你寫2025年啊6月才要報行政院啊我不知道你怎麼估算的啦"},{"start":6379.333,"end":6401.181,"text":"目前來看你寫這個錄取實在是有點不大負責任最主要是ODT是因為涉及到網路平台業者的這種責任的問題那這個部分來講的話不是只有我們ODT TV包括整個平台因為ODT現在的市佔率越來越高啦你應該知道吧ODT現在佔有率大概13%跟中華電信的MOD幾乎一樣"},{"start":6403.686,"end":6422.647,"text":"有任何的消費糾紛或內容有什麼樣的狀況我們根本沒有辦法管理所以這個消費者保護就是我們要立法的所以你要趕快來立法啊照你所講你明年明年底勒2025年12月ODD專法你才要送行政院那我們加快腳步啦我不知道你怎麼排這個期程啦"},{"start":6423.82,"end":6439.963,"text":"那應該是給下一屆的NCC的那個委員或者是他們主委來弄嘛那怎麼定這個日期我不清楚啦但這個法律確實是在避刑嘛你這樣OT現在越來越多啊對不對有間電視收看率一直下降啊還有現在民眾對於"},{"start":6448.277,"end":6469.762,"text":"媒體的那個就要接受訊息阿信任度阿非常低阿你知道瑞典的那個難怪瑞典阿曾經阿在評估阿瑞典有個專業的機構阿他在評估全世界的假訊息阿台灣阿連續10年阿殘年世界第一名阿我就覺得這個"},{"start":6471.645,"end":6493.847,"text":"臺灣的假訊息受境外的有境外的假訊息來影響臺灣是全世界最嚴重的國家而且纏連10年了當然這大部分為了假訊息大家都很清楚就是來自中國嘛那這部分我認為啊事務部跟UCC要負最大的責任所以你看現在民眾啊"},{"start":6494.878,"end":6508.308,"text":"根據台灣市的查核中心的民調一般人認為經常性甚至每天上播假消息有過半一般的民眾認為電視上廣播經常都胡說八道說話都假你看網路更嚴重所以台灣好像活在一個什麼都是假的社會裡面"},{"start":6524.52,"end":6524.66,"text":"主席"},{"start":6554.631,"end":6583.681,"text":"議員委員發言下一位請許智傑委員發言報告許智傑委員發言完畢以後休息10分鐘休息10分鐘完畢以後處理臨時提案不是一樣這樣,好不好?像一樣啊九十點半,每十點半休息好不好?"},{"start":6586.038,"end":6600.868,"text":"好啦齁好啦許智英委員發言不要讓我說謝謝主席,我們請主委好請主委謝謝"},{"start":6607.782,"end":6628.937,"text":"委員好主委好我剛剛聽那個建設委員提到的這個OTT是正好我要求很多年的這個這個MSO對那將來就是OTT、MSO、MOD現在剩三分天下那OTT一直在成長"},{"start":6633.12,"end":6646.907,"text":"往那三分天下的話,三大龍頭啦那OTD現在已經取向越來越多那MSO呢是越來越少"},{"start":6649.682,"end":6655.867,"text":"但是呢 你看都還 沒減少啦齁 訂戶在減少 訂戶在減少對啊 現在才451萬戶嘛 你要看對2018 50萬戶到現在2023 451萬 每一年都減少十幾萬那從這個速度來看 它還會在繼續減少那我們來看就是未來 對MSO到底我們的"},{"start":6678.288,"end":6704.585,"text":"NCC應該怎麼去看待他們是放給孫基主任放水佬嗎?不是,沒有放水佬沒有放水佬,我們一直要求的就是頻道區快化要如何讓他的收視品質可以提高我記得4年前3年多前主委剛就任的時候所有的NCC委員我一個一個問每個人都贊成"},{"start":6706.104,"end":6723.468,"text":"到了現在3年半了還是一事無成區塊化還是有在做區塊而且區塊板就存在所以你如果看CAPTV你看大家最在意的當然是新聞頻道嘛所以那個區塊化還是存在只是說在大區塊以外還沒有小區塊這個問題對啊"},{"start":6725.609,"end":6741.386,"text":"所以區塊塊還是存在的我們這個法定規定都還是有所以包括最近齁像迪士尼Plus要迪士尼要下架這個Cable TV以後這些我們在考慮的時候部分都還是就是因為他一直在Decade所以人家就要下架啊"},{"start":6741.8,"end":6744.863,"text":"所以我就講說我們現在一直要求這個區塊化那什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":6766.391,"end":6793.852,"text":"偷偷可以什麼時候完成委員報告委員會主任關心這個議題那時候我們還在做相關的研究但是因為這個要投入的資本它也真的是很龐大所以而沒說這不分來講人家意願就很所以我們當時有跟委員報告就是說如果有哪些區塊有需求我們透過那個所謂遙控器的方法也是一種方法就是讓消費者可以簡單的看到他想看到的區塊的那個內容那遙控器是要買還是要送"},{"start":6794.522,"end":6818.608,"text":"那個如果那個可以請如果可以的話啦為了推廣這個區域的話如果遙控器可以的話我們就盡量請業者看能不能用送的方法去處理這個議題總是要有時間給我們嗎有有這個基本上來講因為我記得當時你可以看齁區塊化我們現在更新基上河的情況大概剩下650萬台去年我記得你們給我的數據大概800萬台"},{"start":6821.738,"end":6849.258,"text":"你看這樣一年多就差100多萬台而且呢他們這個他們自己業者也會換嘛因為有一些機上盒的軟體要更新的你看無法更新機上盒的現在是589萬台那NCC有補助跟業者自行更換的呢也有80萬台所以其實他都在動那只是說我這個照這個速度動我可能還要動8年到10年"},{"start":6851.175,"end":6859.266,"text":"那你現在替代方案就是說你用遙控器可以替代這到底效果好不好啊到底現在量有多少"},{"start":6860.911,"end":6889.774,"text":"量有多少基本上來講的話如果這個可行我們當時研究這是一個可行的方向那個是可以全面性看要不能來實施的問題總要讓我們知道進度啊規劃跟進度如何跟委員報告一下這個部分來講除了Cable TV以外這因為還涉及到頻道上的他們的商業利益的問題那這個進程來講的話我們也是希望可以儘快的因為跟委員講來報告一下就是說因應了這個Cable TV它整個剪線槽的這個線的出現當然那個速度"},{"start":6891.035,"end":6906.623,"text":"韓國瑜加快,所以KBTV這邊來講的話,有些劣勢系統經營業者,他們除了自己本身另外提供像寬頻上網服務以外,也跟ODT的業者去進行合作,所以將來他的這個基上合的用途就會非常"},{"start":6907.143,"end":6928.946,"text":"所以是不是可以請主委給我一份報告然後呢就是就我剛才要求的區塊化這個部分我們的規劃跟進度如何那當然主委剛提到他們跟OTT業者合作他們大概怎麼樣打算怎麼樣合作那未來我們的MSO"},{"start":6930.988,"end":6950.59,"text":"雖然已經越來越少但是還有450萬戶的權益我們還是要顧所以這個部分希望說一起來思考主委可以給我一個報告我們那個一個月之內OK是給我一份報告就包括MSO包括"},{"start":6951.591,"end":6980.499,"text":"MOD包括 OTT他們未來的研究發展的方向那如何在我們這三個三大龍頭不是電信三大龍頭是我們電視三大龍頭這三大龍頭能夠將來怎麼樣競合或者是說我們要分別跟各自的收視群跟他解釋你們的權利跟義務在哪裡那如何確保你們收視的品質這個都是我們NCC要去思考的吧"},{"start":6981.099,"end":6988.114,"text":"是不是請主委一併思考那一個月內給我一份報告那第二個問題就是那個"},{"start":6989.423,"end":7013.079,"text":"若是族群我也曾經提過這一部分也謝謝NCC有暖心方案就照顧中低收入戶跟年長者這些這個暖心方案是很好那我也跟主委提過暖心方案如果能夠再加上防炸的話這個效果會更好因為正好若是族群跟老人也是被人家騙的"},{"start":7014.66,"end":7024.609,"text":"最佳的對象啦最容易受騙的對象啦所以這個部分我們是不是來看就是電話的詐騙那比如說老人來講啦長輩啦"},{"start":7026.826,"end":7046.523,"text":"你們現在中華電信它防害這個守門員是針對網路啦針對網路但是呢你如果是長輩基本上他會受到網路詐騙的機會會比受到電話詐騙的機會還要小所以我是覺得就是先防電話詐騙這個優先來處理那主委也跟我說上一次也說好"},{"start":7048.527,"end":7049.528,"text":"現在的進度如何?"},{"start":7068.712,"end":7069.152,"text":"最後我再要求一下"},{"start":7090.467,"end":7104.165,"text":"台灣大哥大反詐戰警這個個人版這個他有針對我講的這個暖性方案他就不收費這個就很具體這個要謝謝他們然後遠傳他還是要收50塊"},{"start":7109.79,"end":7122.727,"text":"對於老人、長輩、弱勢族群可不可以比照台灣大哥大辦理我們是來協調電信業者,看朝這個方向去那還有中華電信,這麼大間的電信公司提供這個電話防詐有問題嗎?"},{"start":7126.561,"end":7154.806,"text":"這個我們協調中華電信啦要保護這些高齡業就是這三大龍頭電信三大龍頭我希望說既然我們有軟線方案照顧低收入戶跟老人是不是他們最容易受騙的我們一起去保護他們那這個進度什麼時候給我跟委員給委員報告的時候我們再來跟委員硬幣說明好不好那一個禮拜"},{"start":7157.072,"end":7157.272,"text":"休息10分鐘"},{"start":7189.152,"end":7193.616,"text":"一、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主任委員"},{"start":7747.473,"end":7760.949,"text":"打零了好,開會現在處理臨時提案本日既有七個案請議事人員一併宣讀"},{"start":7767.274,"end":7784.04,"text":"臨時提案提案一致依立法院職權刑事法定時處條之規定特提案成立禁電式申涉其後續弊案爭議調閱專案小組旅行本院委員監督之職者提案人委員林國成等提案二"},{"start":7785.779,"end":7809.131,"text":"要求通傳會撤回所提交至本委員會執業務報告．並於一週內重新撰寫一份真正反映過去一年內工作成果．符合通訊傳播監理機關專業標準及展現未來規劃之詳盡報告以重建公眾及立法機關對通傳會的信任與期待提案人委員林國成等"},{"start":7810.595,"end":7828.424,"text":"提案三、敬請NCC針對裁判案件內容及理由尊重諮詢委員意見．並且對於有確定判決案件申請再審之必要性．進行重新檢討並於兩週內提出檢討報告．提案人委員黃健豪等"},{"start":7829.349,"end":7833.834,"text":"提案四,知音競變4在2024總統大選之前開設大選競來獎2024選戰論壇,請於兩週內提出相關報告說明。提案人委員黃健豪等。"},{"start":7845.506,"end":7864.487,"text":"提案五、三立集團違反入股宗家案有兩位NCC委員曾提出應對上層的宏順公司究責並應重新考慮三立電視包括宗家申請移平三立財經新聞台以及三立新聞台、三立財經新聞台換照評鑑案等"},{"start":7867.19,"end":7896.156,"text":"禁請NCC針對兩位委員之意見兩週內提出修法相關方向及上述案件檢討提案人委員黃健豪等提案六、禁請交通委員會作成決議針對國家通訊傳播委員會主委陳耀祥踐踏民主監督機制敗壞官德官簽嚴重藐視國會之行徑莫此為甚因與嚴厲譴責提案人委員魯明哲等"},{"start":7897.95,"end":7922.782,"text":"提案七、建請委員會作成決議．針對國家通訊傳播委員會近年審查競電式申設審照及換照過程．外力介入情況、附加條件等．有無涉及部法成立調閱專案小組．要求有關機關就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料．以落實國會監督提案人委員魯明哲等。宣布完畢。"},{"start":7925.708,"end":7942.938,"text":"好,一共七個案第一案跟第七案是一樣,內容是一樣的第一案並第七案來處理合併處理第一案跟第七案合併處理好,我們討論第二案第二案各位委員有沒有意見?第二案林國城委員有修正"},{"start":7956.5,"end":7980.441,"text":"在第二段的部分,通常會此行為不僅藐視國會這一段通通除掉,改為建議刪除本會沒有藐視國會的本意。誰嘛?這是誰的意見嗎?你們的意見你們改啊。好,那你上台補充一下,來。"},{"start":7990.29,"end":8004.997,"text":"報告主席及各位委員我們建議這個第二案裡面的第二段這部分可以刪除了那對於這次報告裡面來講沒有寫好那造成各位委員的這些可能關心或這個意見我們會去補充所提交的這個業務報告所以我們這邊並沒有藐視國會的議題"},{"start":8015,"end":8042.594,"text":"那後面的那個第二後第三段的部分來講的話我們是是建議改成第三段第二行一週內改為一個月要求補充所提交的業務報告我們是希望建議說一個月內重新那個撰寫第二段全部撤掉然後在後面那裡寫補充撤回改為補充一週改為一個月是不是這個意思是是是好各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8043.891,"end":8052.529,"text":"沒意見我們第二案修正通過第三案第三案各位有沒有意見"},{"start":8059.006,"end":8072.378,"text":"行政部門報告主席及該委員,這個基本上來講因為這有些會涉及到個案是否申請有時候個案性的議題我們建議說我們是會提出書面報告那這個部分來講後面的這個"},{"start":8074.279,"end":8098.295,"text":"第三行的部分來講的話是不是說我們這個部分可能要這個部分可能刪除我們是希望是說我們會尊重諮詢委員的意見並提交這個比如說兩週內提交這個書面報告兩週內提出書面報告各位委員有沒有意見好沒有意見臨時案第三案通過第四案第四案各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":8100.967,"end":8115.407,"text":"沒意見,行政部門有沒有意見?我們建議改成這個所謂書面報告改書面報告,對不對?好修正通過,第五案第五案,各位委員有沒有意見?沒意見,行政部門?"},{"start":8116.641,"end":8137.151,"text":"我們後面那個倒數第三行應有規範落實那個付款因為我們的付款不一定只有付負擔的部分然後那個倒數第二行來講的話那個兩週可不可以改成這個一個月提出這個相關修法的這個規劃方向機檢討上述這個部分檢討這個書面報告"},{"start":8139.287,"end":8153.442,"text":"負擔改為付款,兩週改為兩個月內相關修法規劃方向。各位有沒意見?沒意見?第五案修正通過,第六案?第六案各位有沒意見?沒意見說明?"},{"start":8163.375,"end":8177.592,"text":"我們說明跟主席跟各位人報告一下第二段裡面來講的話所謂業宇提起訴訟什麼15次勝訴跟15次敗訴我想這個東西來講跟事實是有所誤解的那這部分我是建議刪除的那檢查案部分因為"},{"start":8178.853,"end":8197.62,"text":"我們整個申設換照部分是依照這個大院的所制定的法律還有授權所制定的這相關法規命令這個我們沒有所謂的踐踏民主的監督機制或是藐視國會的部分所以這個部分是不是建議建議我們就不予成立了謝謝建議什麼"},{"start":8203.494,"end":8215.897,"text":"尊重委員會的討論我們是認為這個譴責案跟我們事實上還是有點錯譴責案你不尊重嗎?你尊重我們譴責案,那你尊重嗎?但是問題是說建議不要予以譴責案尊重就不討論了嗎?好不好沒有啦沒有啦,我們還是認為說你不尊重我們嗎?"},{"start":8228.294,"end":8249.528,"text":"尊重我們 尊重我們 那第6案就通過啦顧責委員請講不贊成因為不贊成委員講 我們行政機關不敢這樣寫法啦我們是尊重的 主席表決報表決 表決要表決嗎好來表決來同意的請舉手 在場有多少 請點人數"},{"start":8257.605,"end":8283.79,"text":"交通委員會一共多少人?請舉手不要亂舉手,有的不是吧來,清點人數你們站長、主席、委員、大人一個、兩個一個、兩個、三個、四個,才五位喔我想懂人數啊"},{"start":8294.992,"end":8314.307,"text":"有11位嗎?有11位出席齁?我們確定有11位好,站著那幾局走?韓主席嗎?1、2、3、4、5那我勒?我等一下齁,我等一下齁我公平看了勒"},{"start":8315.878,"end":8344.546,"text":"好來反對請舉手一、二、三、四、五,五票對五票那我舉手郭敏燦好不好那現在6比5通過好我念一下勒好第六案齁表示贊成的六票反對的五票通過"},{"start":8353.54,"end":8369.451,"text":"第一案第一案跟第七案合併討論第七案來,各位委員沒意見沒意見,行政單位說明"},{"start":8370.75,"end":8394.62,"text":"報告主席及各位委員,這個貂園小組的部分關於今天是上一屆委我們大概已經進行過5次的專案報告了那提出相關的資料,而且這個案子來講的話這是第一個是個案性的,因為這個是我們在進行當中如果今天通過這個所謂的貂園小組這個很明顯這個我們認為這個是有可能所謂的政治干預這個所謂個案形式的這個問題"},{"start":8395.6,"end":8422.292,"text":"那第二個來講的話就是我們大貫4至729號這個問題了請委員我們建議我們當然行政部門是贊成這樣提成這個第二小組好,各位同意嗎?不行那就表決喔表決表決好我們這場交通委員人數11位齁贊成的請舉手贊成的請舉手11位、2位、3位、4位、5位"},{"start":8425.79,"end":8452.35,"text":"一個人擠一隻手不要擠兩隻喔?一、二、三、四、五個,好五位反正擠幾隻手?不要放下,我還沒叫你放下啊幾個?五個,五位五位那我就參加我們算成了嗎?"},{"start":8463.463,"end":8474.467,"text":"臨時提案已經處理完畢了,如果有委員對上述提案補簽的,列入紀錄並刊登公報好不好?繼續請李坤澤委員召委發言"},{"start":8484.738,"end":8511.101,"text":"謝謝昭緯報告昭緯在進行詢答之前有個議事程序也是要提醒昭緯那今天當然是沒有報告但是是要補充資料這個已經是形同書面報告是要列入公報這個請主秘依照議事程序來做處理以上那請陳主委好陳主委請"},{"start":8518.707,"end":8541.236,"text":"主委民眾對於電信網路的相關詐欺的案件一直深惡痛絕也造成民眾財產的相關的這些重大的損失我們來看NCC所提供相關的資料就是2023打詐的一些措施的成效當然攔阻有1850萬通的境外篡改的電話"},{"start":8545.337,"end":8557.222,"text":"也攔阻了大概800萬封惡意的簡訊這些只是在過去交通委員會我們具體的要求對國際來話的這種語音警示之後國際的來話數減少了這種95%"},{"start":8564.249,"end":8571.177,"text":"男主虛假的這種國際漫遊的電話也達到70%以上那採取我看NCC也有針對這種客戶確認就是KYC沒有落實KYC相關業者這個案件採取了20件"},{"start":8581.129,"end":8601.725,"text":"那也裁判了兩千多萬元那行政檢查39次那我們也看到呼斯科也有相關的這些統計的這些數據不過我們要提醒主委就是說我們針對這種電信網路的詐欺的他還是迅速的成長當然這三年來我們來看地檢署的"},{"start":8602.305,"end":8602.886,"text":"主任委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8627.156,"end":8627.956,"text":"報告委員關於這個電信還有網路詐欺的這個"},{"start":8657.028,"end":8657.268,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":8672.293,"end":8693.011,"text":"當然這個部分就剛才也有我已經提到現在面臨還有另外一個比較新型態就是AI的這個部分那這個部分我們會繼續努力也跟這個檢調機關這邊相關配合透過這個所謂AI的這個部分可以去繼續去壓制降低這個所謂的犯罪的這個建樹那除了以外來講就很重要的是"},{"start":8693.652,"end":8707.621,"text":"我們向來的做法第一個就是救援處理就是說把這些相關的攔阻或警示第二個就是所謂的透過落實KYC的部分就是下游的這些管制請電信業者就這個相關的這些所謂的"},{"start":8713.905,"end":8726.772,"text":"另外一個在關於簡訊的部分我們也是請那個大的電信那個所謂的手機業者包括Google包括那個Apple就這個部分來講的話主委剛才提到KYC嘛就是客戶確認這個部分"},{"start":8731.395,"end":8753.604,"text":"這個部分我覺得是螺絲已經鬆動了我們看看近期海峽電信跟魔方移動他們都是屬於二類的電信事業成豬網路、電信的訊號提供給民眾服務看海峽電信他的這些所販售的號碼是中華電信所發配的"},{"start":8755.184,"end":8774.789,"text":"這一種海峽電信提供給7間的企業客戶8350個門號都沒有落實KYC那這個部分當然NCC有做相關的這個裁罰那某方移動也是一樣那我們對於電信業者的KYC的這個責任"},{"start":8776.269,"end":8797.358,"text":"有沒有進一步的規範措施這個是要保障民眾權利一個很重要的關鍵我們根據電信管理法的授權我們去訂定這個電信失業用戶號碼使用管理辦法當然這個我們大概在這個月底以前會讓它實施在此之前來講我們已經跟電信業者包括MMO就是原來傳統一類電信業者"},{"start":8799.239,"end":8824.394,"text":"還有其他的這些所謂的原來的二類電信業者共同去努力把這些相關的KYCC要求它下降尤其是我們對於所謂MMO就是對於像中華電信、臺科大、遠傳這邊他們也都是要求他們極力去配合那他們也是很努力去處理現在比較麻煩的一個相關的議題是說除了我們本國的這個電話號碼以外還包括有一些來自於境外的像這些所謂的"},{"start":8825.495,"end":8850.89,"text":"黑莓卡或其他這個部分我們會繼續努力這個部分我們還是要加強相關的來電的辨識要落實KYC客戶確認我這邊要提醒主委我們相關的886-0-8的這個開頭現在是可以直接的攔阻但是886-9的這個電話可能是詐騙集團也有可能是國外親友所發達的這個電話"},{"start":8852.611,"end":8869.189,"text":"那這個部分我們應該跟民間的來電辨識業者來合作對於這些啊境外來電建立資料庫來進一步啊與外國的來電來進行辨識避免民眾受騙針對8869的這個電話的這相關有可能是詐騙也有可能是親友國際親友打來"},{"start":8875.414,"end":8896.906,"text":"來這個我們如何做進一步的處理這個基本在技術上來講的確8869有正常的化物存在不過的確透過我們這個警示以後來講的話這個詐騙的訊息有下降那這裡有一個很重要的觀點就是說那AI我們現在將來講話的部分來講很容易被AI這個所重置的這個部分來講我們會繼續努力去處理這個議題"},{"start":8900.649,"end":8913.837,"text":"我們要強化客戶確認KYC的電信業者的責任必須要加強行政的指導跟集合從外部督導各電信業者要求業者增強內部的控管機制"},{"start":8914.778,"end":8942.418,"text":"而要加強對於電信業者的相關的規範必須要要求業者針對所販售的對象事先的資格審查事後的定期檢查以及網路的零售要資訊接到來這個部分我們必須要有更進一步的作為我們這個都是在努力作為當中那我們對電信業者來講的話我們都會加強那行政指導而且對電信業者落實KYC我們也會不定期的去督導"},{"start":8943.038,"end":8965.078,"text":"那另外我們也請我們區處去查詢有些相關的這些比如在網路上販售的這個議題這些來源的這個所謂的電話卡到底是不是我們電信業者所發出的或者是說由從國外來這邊處理我們這個事前的檢查事後的稽查還有相關的這個定期或不定期的這些網路的檢查這個必須要加強相關的作用最後的時間我要請教一下"},{"start":8966.559,"end":8979.891,"text":"我們在2018針對3G的相關的特定的執照以及相關的這個服務就號稱要終止了那到今年6月就要全面的關閉那全面的關閉那"},{"start":8981.713,"end":9001.109,"text":"就要改用啊模體的相關的這種語音號稱是比較高音質的高品質的這種通訊那還是會有部分的用戶啊受到影響那我們看到這種模體的這種手機的普及啊大概目前是94%其實還有6%的民眾啊手機還沒有辦法支援"},{"start":9005.512,"end":9032.683,"text":"那3G的用戶數啊全國的3G的網路用戶數啊大概還有74萬3921我們以偏鄉地區來說啦遠傳就評估他們偏鄉地區還有4192戶那相關的其他兩大電信業者有多少還有其他的這些長輩銀髮族所使用的這種3G的手機啊都會受到影響那因為3G基地台關閉啊"},{"start":9033.863,"end":9041.005,"text":"沒有換手機的人會受到影響,無法使用語音的通話,NCC有什麼對應的措施?他們的規格也不太一樣"},{"start":9054.548,"end":9056.789,"text":"三G的落日相關措施我們還是要加強當然當然要督導電信業者提供合理優惠的方案來更換這些Volti的手機跟方案"},{"start":9082.805,"end":9108.317,"text":"那也跟里長去進行實地的宣導因為長輩或是偏鄉要協助偏鄉跟高齡的這些長輩要去做處理那偏鄉地區的落日時間是不是能夠是當地的普及率再去順眼調整順眼3G的這種相關的關台對我們當時來講也是考慮剛才那個委員所講的所以那個是第一就是6月30號嘛"},{"start":9109.517,"end":9133.069,"text":"那如果說有特殊的狀況比如偏鄉的建設或者有一些是可能涉及到軍事用途或者基礎建設的這個還有需要3G網路這個部分這個我們也讓業者是暫時可以不用關閉他們先關閉初期是先把關閉我們對於偏鄉跟長輩的我們希望透過這個過渡期間臨沖擊要趕快協助他們轉到貨車的部分那我們要參考日本跟韓國"},{"start":9134.13,"end":9153.077,"text":"去調整各自的4G、5G網路規格的逐步達成這種MOTI的語音互通的目標這也是NCC重要的一個責任這是我們目前當中最重要的責任 謝謝好 謝謝我們昆德州委現在會請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":9163.711,"end":9173.076,"text":"謝主席,有請陳主委好,陳主委請委員好"},{"start":9173.878,"end":9191.932,"text":"主委本席過去也在媒體服務那我想新聞媒體的自由絕對是應該中立不受到政治干預那我們NCC作為一個獨立機關客觀中立的處理媒體還有傳播事業的一個規範我想這是應該主委跟我們團隊這個應該堅守的一個原則"},{"start":9195.774,"end":9223.484,"text":"主委剛剛委員會有表決通過了一個譴責案也有一個所謂的一個調閱小組那針對這個事情主委本身有什麼看法?包委員基本上就鑑定是這個部分我們在上屆上個會期來講的話當然已經進行了5次的那個專案報告那今天是這個部分來講的話當然當時當然因為他們可能公司治理內部的這些股東或者是說有一些不同的那個對公司治理這邊的爭論"},{"start":9224.864,"end":9241.389,"text":"那NCC作為一個獨立機關我們本來就不會去介入所謂公私不同之間對整個公私經營權的這種所謂的爭議或者爭奪也好那這個才是我們獨立機關應該要去做的就是說尊重言論自由尊重新聞自由的前提下去處理這個議題"},{"start":9242.95,"end":9268.92,"text":"那我想主委也有多次表達說7月份任期到了之後就不再續任那我想主委跟團隊也要繼續加油我想這個部分我想國人對我們NCC有很大的期待那本席接著要針對所謂的一個詐騙的部分再請教一下主委就剛剛之前我們有多位委員有提到所謂一個魔方移動跟中華電信的一個關係那這部分"},{"start":9270.18,"end":9296.267,"text":"NCC的調查的狀況到底是怎麼一回事我們關於這個魔方這個議題來講的話這個是在我覺得是雲林地檢在查這相關的詐騙案裡面所查出的另外一個部分那魔方這個部分來講的話這可能涉及這個國際漫遊卡這個議題我們也找相關的像中華電信這可能有魔方這可能是不是企客關係那對他們這個KYC的落實有沒有去清查那為什麼會發生這種事情"},{"start":9296.747,"end":9311.358,"text":"那對於這個檢調機關的這些查詢的部分來講我們也像中華電信也好像魔方也好我們都請他說明那至於因為有一些是屬於所謂偵查不公開的部分那我們相關也沒有所有的手頭資料所以我們目前進行的是用行政調查"},{"start":9312.119,"end":9332.209,"text":"主委那我們是不是在2021年已經廢止了它的許可沒有那個模仿以前是基本上來講是我們當原來的電信法裡面有說一類電信跟二類電信的分類方法後來我們電信管理法以後這個分類已經沒有了那所以說原來的這些二類電信業者以前是要我們許可制現在變成採自願登記制"},{"start":9335.252,"end":9344.285,"text":"本期還是要求我們NCC趕快調查清楚我想大家對這個都有一些的疑慮那應該要對外解釋清楚避免大家產生一個誤解"},{"start":9345.236,"end":9366.154,"text":"那針對所謂的這個詐騙的案件那電信業者我想也很無辜的表達說他們其實有很多的門號最後成為我們詐騙集團一個犯罪的工具那多位檢察官也表達對NCC跟電信業者的不滿認為我們電信業者沒有做好所謂一個把關的動作那甚至有檢察官反映說"},{"start":9367.975,"end":9382.927,"text":"去年的一月到三月我們大陸來台的觀光客僅有兩萬九千多人但是國內五大變性業者提供給大陸人士來台的一個漫遊門號竟然高達一百萬隻以上那這個狀況我們NCC了解的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":9383.867,"end":9407.674,"text":"各位報告一下這個我們在商會其實說也說明清楚就是說基本上那個統計數字來講的話應該沒有那麼多的數量那可能是說因為比如說漫遊進來他可能會漫遊到中華電信也同時可能會漫遊到台客大或是那個遠傳因為他會移動嘛所以這個部分來講很多都是所謂重複計算的問題我們這個去年的報告裡面也有說到這個部分那我們希望"},{"start":9408.475,"end":9414.291,"text":"像這種情況有沒有可以詐騙集團去申辦這個門號的部分我們都配合檢調機關去處理"},{"start":9416.176,"end":9441.347,"text":"我想因為這個打詐也是我們現在當然國安問題那我想檢調也披於半面那NCC作為我們的一個主管機關也應該要負起應該相關的責任那我想目前我還是要提醒我們的NCC那我們過去三年針對我們電信業者違規販賣門號的裁發案件才22件那所以造成檢察官也有很多的詐陰跟不滿"},{"start":9442.267,"end":9456.8,"text":"那所謂NCC針對所謂的一個大量販售門號的SOP的部分是不是有一個怎麼樣具體的一個作為我們是依照電信管理法還有以前那個關於這些所謂原來的二類這不是依照原來的電信法去採訪"},{"start":9458.702,"end":9478.914,"text":"簡單來講就是說他沒有落實KYC造成這個所謂的有可能有這種詐欺案子被這個電話號碼被用到詐欺的手段裡面去我們有去進行採取比如說以前我們那個臺灣之心我們才採取1600萬以上所以這個部分來講我們還是會下說只要他違規事實情節清楚而且有確實的證據我們還會還是予以重罰"},{"start":9481.977,"end":9490.777,"text":"主委那這部分是不是我們在兩個月之內給本席的辦公室一個完整的檢討報告我們這個給委員這部分我想我們國人大家都很關心"},{"start":9492.182,"end":9521.517,"text":"那另外在針對上個禮拜或針對我們的這個遠距醫療的部分我們有請教過我們數位部的唐部長那我想今天也請教一下主委那因為對對外來講我們都跟國人講說我們5G的涵蓋率非常的高到達96%但是根據本席的了解我們屏東的涵蓋率確實是沒有一個很明顯的一個數字那我請教一下主委屏東目前的涵蓋率大概是有多少"},{"start":9522.117,"end":9545.499,"text":"跟委員報告就是說基本上來講是都會地區還是偏鄉地區我們屏東也不全部都是所謂的偏鄉比如說以屏東市來講它也是都會地區那各地有各地不同的涵蓋率那剛才委員所關心的這個遠距醫療我實際是去過小琉球去看過其實它專門遠距醫療在電信業者跟我們地方的這個衛生主管機關在通力合作之下有一個不錯的成果"},{"start":9545.999,"end":9570.116,"text":"那這個部分來講為什麼5G的涵蓋率會比較那個就是說勝率會比較低那是因為5G的特性跟實際不太一樣5G基本上來講它的頻寬的比較大所以很適合做這種所謂智慧醫療或是智慧相關智慧程式的這個運用那這個涵蓋率的部分來講的話我們會請我們的那個同仁把這個涵蓋率如果委員有這個需要我們提供給委員了解"},{"start":9570.816,"end":9590.182,"text":"這部分還是要請主委跟我們團隊要加油因為看起來目前的滲透率才差不多三成左右那我想對於我們這個屏東這個很多偏鄉的來講這個遠距醫療是非常重要的一個需求這部分要請主委跟我們數位部我們一起來努力強化這個部分"},{"start":9592.048,"end":9606.569,"text":"那本席也調閱了各個業者自己做的4G跟5G一個信號涵蓋率的地區那看起來屏東縣幾乎還是4G居多啦跟我們所謂的這個高5G的高涵蓋率還是有落差那這部分"},{"start":9608.011,"end":9633.798,"text":"請問主委怎麼樣再要求我們業者再強化這部分是不是可以給我們的辦公室一個兩個月之間一個完整的一個說明我們會督促業者尤其在偏鄉有比較遠距醫療需求或在其他有關於這個所謂資訊應用的部分我們會督促業者持續加強這個建設當然有些現在很多的這個所謂的關鍵基礎設施這部分已經移到數位部去但我們會數位部共同合作來處理對"},{"start":9635.138,"end":9635.378,"text":"謝謝徐副委員"},{"start":9665.106,"end":9667.108,"text":"下一位請徐曉欣委員發言謝謝主席,我們想請陳耀祥主委好,陳主委請"},{"start":9688.609,"end":9707.667,"text":"大家好各位你好今天大家都非常關心這個中天換照案那根據台北高等行政法院判案CC敗訴的部分主要原因是因為你們當初沒有準用2018年的評分表剛才在質詢過程當中你們說有一百多個案子都是用舊的評分表那請問你們這個心得要幹嘛"},{"start":9708.027,"end":9711.869,"text":"臺北高等行政法院的判決不是我個人的見解所以我想要問的是是不是有一百多個案子都是這樣子的"},{"start":9734.218,"end":9754.572,"text":"我們所有的評分表都一樣的沒有我們問的是說用所謂的舊的評分表您瞭解我的意思就好您瞭解我的意思就好這個評分表你們當時所使用去評中天的這個評分表一百多個案子都這樣所以其他一百多個案子他們未來也有可能對你們展開行政訴訟對吧"},{"start":9757.754,"end":9782.647,"text":"當初誰決定要用這份評分表的在政治責任來說是陳耀祥主委您本人決定要您使用這個評分表用原本的配分是你個人決定的嗎是哪一位委員決定要這麼做的這個基本上就是我們本會都共同討論所以這評分表都一樣七位委員共同討論在哪一天的開會做出的決議我們本來就有這個內部的評分表嘛"},{"start":9784.309,"end":9791.457,"text":"誰決定?因為你們有兩種版本,誰決定用這種版本的?是您還是其他的委員?具體討論的時間是什麼時候決定的?誰決定的?我問的問題是這個"},{"start":9800.368,"end":9815.083,"text":"你有決定這件事嗎?你有同意這件事嗎?所以你的意思是說7位NCC的委員大家共同決定要採取這份評分表那請問是在哪一次會議上面大家共同決議的?我們在109年11月18日那個委員會就決定"},{"start":9821.769,"end":9849.943,"text":"了解了那我們在開庭的過程當中我們發現一件事情來我們來看一下開庭的筆錄為什麼NCC要阻擋中天來越卷啊你們一直到了在法院上面的時候來法官問本件從原告109年6月8號申請換照到109年11月18號委員會決議這段期間原告從來沒有越過卷嗎申請了三次越卷NCC當時不同意的理由是什麼"},{"start":9850.782,"end":9858.907,"text":"對方向你申請月券然後你不同意後來在法被法官打臉有沒有這件事情來那對方當時跟你申請月券的理由是什麼所以為什麼法官會很訝異說人家向你月券你竟然不准一直到了開庭之後那才"},{"start":9877.777,"end":9890.692,"text":"准許人家來閱卷是不是有這回事所以NCC當中天來申請的時候是拒絕的等到到了法院之後法官允許有沒有這個過程後來閱卷了沒有"},{"start":9894.295,"end":9913.989,"text":"你也掌握不清楚你竟然問應該這個案子社會的關注這麼高你竟然只是應該所以這個過程我再論述一次就是在當時NCC三次中天三次向NCC希望能夠閱卷而NCC不同意一直到了法院裡面法官很驚訝的問沒有閱過卷嗎然後呢對方說申請了三次被告都沒有給閱"},{"start":9918.752,"end":9943.935,"text":"那所以這個後來法官才給予月券是不是有這回事這個個案的申請裡面來講他本來就提起輸送他月券我們當然是先把券給法官嘛應該是這樣處理沒有錯如果是這樣法官就不會這麼驚訝了再來我們問一下如果按照這個NCC院不願意按照未來法院的見解讓新任的委員以2018年的評分表重新評斷中天是否能夠換照"},{"start":9944.796,"end":9965.985,"text":"這是合議制委員討論的問題這不是我個人能夠決定的所以未來會不會討論這個主題如果未來看未來的情況去處理那NCC如果敗訴定業的話要怎麼把52台還給對方你們怎麼知道明知對方還在跟你打官司你也不一定會贏的情況下就草草把52台給別人有沒有評估方案若最後NCC敗訴中天該怎麼樣還給"},{"start":9968.746,"end":9979.152,"text":"所謂新聞台這個是頻道這是所謂系統業者他就是認為你不應該撤他的照那你必須要把52台那還給他的過程當中NCC該怎麼處理有沒有評估你們目前有沒有評估如果官司輸掉的話要怎麼處理"},{"start":9987.236,"end":10001.765,"text":"目前NCC完全沒有評估如果本案定宴的話要如何處理這件事情是因為你已經要去學校院教了所以你就不想要再管接下來的人要怎麼做了嗎這是一種非常不負責任的想法所以今天才會有這麼多的委員站出來譴責你還用表決的方式通過這個是這是你NCC根本就是政治的首勝要有最後一類的問題請問你們有沒有常常叫媒體去寫報告"},{"start":10015.954,"end":10040.402,"text":"你們有沒有曾經在讓羅世宏在2022年的1月26號到東森電視台上課建議東森的政論節目要參考三立的做法去做這邊新聞自立的問題還有倫理委員會的問題這是內部的問題啊我問你的是你們有沒有在2022年的1月26日請羅世宏到東森新聞去上課建議東森新聞的政論節目要參考三立去做"},{"start":10040.922,"end":10049.706,"text":"基本上來講新聞他們要如何製作新聞是一個問題這個部分來講有沒有不曉得委員會去上課我沒有回避問題阿我不曉得羅世宏委員有沒有叫他們去上課阿我們NCC不會去請教說是幫誰上課沒有這回事請你們有沒有請他說要維持所謂的新聞的多元所以讓羅世宏去當天去東森上課"},{"start":10067.894,"end":10078.76,"text":"這是我們有非常確定的我會把相關的資訊再提供給你們有很多的媒體都在抱怨你們叫他寫報告一年請媒體寫幾次報告請問你們一年發函多少次給包含電視台跟廣播請他們寫報告給NCC我們統計數據是多少次一年有幾件"},{"start":10094.088,"end":10115.266,"text":"沒有,那就看委員所謂報告的定義是什麼就是你們發函請他寫報告回覆你們,一年有幾件?這個有時候我們要統計數字,這有時候是廣電自行會議你們平常沒有統計是嗎?因為這個部分來講的話本來就不在我們裁判,這不是屬於裁判的部分不是屬於裁判的部分,我問的是你們一年有幾件這樣子的情況,不知道嗎?這個是溝通的問題嘛,所以我們沒有對,溝通我想問你們是件數"},{"start":10117.806,"end":10118.626,"text":"好 謝謝徐曉欣委員的發言"},{"start":10146.676,"end":10164.125,"text":"下一位請羅志祥委員發言主席有請主委好請主委你好"},{"start":10165.27,"end":10187.796,"text":"我要恭喜主委成為我們的立法院被譴責的一個NCC主委我剛剛聽徐小姐質詢你你就說這是政治干預嘛 對不對那你關新聞台就不叫政治干預立法委員依職權來譴責你叫政治干預沒有關係好 我想請教你一樣延續上次質詢陳建仁院長的問題"},{"start":10190.151,"end":10207.307,"text":"我們陳水扁前總統說政府不該關新聞台他非常不認同您的做法請問您您認同政府該關新聞台嗎我們是依法去處理這個問題大院的法律這麼受求我們就有換照制度去處理我一樣延續問陳建仁院長答不出的問題請問他認不認同政府關新聞台"},{"start":10211.55,"end":10229.258,"text":"他那天回答是不認同你站在旁邊沒有關係我就問齁我就要問齁你講的就依法行政嘛依法行政嘛那我問齁國民黨執政時候的報禁解除報禁也有法律依據啊為什麼要解除那當時的所謂的報禁的法律呢為什麼"},{"start":10230.267,"end":10257.662,"text":"委員國民黨支持的時期年代綜合台被關掉喔年代綜合台被關掉我要跟你講政府不該關新聞台就是新聞自由的鐵則我接下來想請教您齁您今天腐爛的運用您的換照的權利最後結果就導致新聞台被關沒有關係我要請教您齁請問廣播電視業者在選舉開票期間有沒有出現過度灌票的情形"},{"start":10258.602,"end":10271.863,"text":"有沒有去調查我們有進去調查調查你當時省紀部說這過度灌票情形請你們NCC來督促改進你給那個省紀部的回答是什麼"},{"start":10274.343,"end":10275.224,"text":"我們平常就落實在監理制度上"},{"start":10304.264,"end":10332.989,"text":"事實上在NCC的換照負擔你根本沒提這件事沒錯吧我告訴你我也懂你啦你回應審計不一回事啊但是真的要落實的時候你就裝死嘛接下來我想請教您請問您這個你按照當時把中天關掉有一樣標準嘛好幾樣嘛一個理由是中天違規過多申訴過多嘛對不對"},{"start":10333.903,"end":10342.105,"text":"這是其中之一那我想請教您請問2022年根據NCC統治民眾投訴最多是哪一個新聞台我告訴您民視新聞台141次跟台灣台是吧那我想請問您民視去年7月成功換照換照期間2017到2023年一共被裁罰幾次多少錢"},{"start":10361.465,"end":10367.854,"text":"我們統計資料那個18次740萬元好我想請問您您裁罰中天是25件1153萬元不予換照嘛對不對是那我想請問你以目前現階段中天勝訴幾件"},{"start":10377.425,"end":10385.351,"text":"你告了25件現階段現階段勝訴8件你搞什麼再審再去搞的我告訴你你目前我講現階段審及勝訴你不要跟我講最後終極判決我跟你講8件是360萬以目前你目前現階段就是這樣扣掉以後先不講25件你現在扣掉這8件17件793萬"},{"start":10407.125,"end":10407.745,"text":"所以我沒上書啊"},{"start":10432.179,"end":10438.064,"text":"那只是說評分表大家有爭論嗎?你連個評分表的標準都可以搞不定就是你們NCC基本上根本不稱職我知道啦今天事實上按照NCC主委陳耀祥的論點反正陳水扁也不對啦反正高層行政法院也不對啦八屆目前現階段勝訴的都不算數啦"},{"start":10460.541,"end":10475.552,"text":"就你偉大的陳耀祥,議法院譴責你也不算數就你偉大的陳耀祥,你今天愛怎麼辦就怎麼辦你乾脆直接把所有新聞台,你說你高興關誰就關誰啊好,謝謝羅志祥委員的發言蕭若晴、蔡其昌副院長發言"},{"start":10498.899,"end":10511.706,"text":"謝謝主席請陳主委主委好主委好山雞6月30"},{"start":10514.787,"end":10516.949,"text":"我看了一下數字應該還有七十幾萬戶這裡面大概殭屍用戶有多少"},{"start":10539.001,"end":10551.931,"text":"就是簡單講他門號還在但事實上根本也沒在使用了這可能要請那個電信業者來統計他的數字了因為這個部分來講的話到底有沒有用這個因為有一些是涉及到他們的營業秘密的問題我提一下這問題是因為這個權益的問題啦就是說"},{"start":10555.374,"end":10573.43,"text":"對於很多可能那個位置或許是比較中低收入或者是偏鄉這個權益的照顧上面NCC一定要特別去關注到這些使用者的權益接下來今天本席還是要跟你討論一下那個電話簡訊詐騙"},{"start":10578.275,"end":10605.371,"text":"政府為了防止詐騙我們推出了識別碼111換言之政府以後發的簡訊民眾只要收到短碼11就是政府認證這條絕對不會騙這個是絕對真的不是詐騙其他現在大型的這些民間企業使用短碼的比例高不高"},{"start":10606.529,"end":10629.908,"text":"電信業者他們使用都有他們個別的短碼對對對三大電信有各自的短碼那是企業其他企業客戶裡面有沒有短碼有些也是有但是就是說沒有統一的這個短碼沒關係就是說我想請問你就是說譬如說銀行業來講因為銀行啊常常要發簡訊給他的客戶譬如說你的信用卡沒有繳啦或者我要跟你"},{"start":10630.929,"end":10645.546,"text":"做聯絡啦對保啦帳戶什麼有什麼問題信用卡有什麼問題啊所以銀行我常譬如說以我個人來講我常常會收到銀行發給我的簡訊那銀行目前啊用短訊這個銀行有幾家"},{"start":10647.773,"end":10648.853,"text":"扣掉政府的111之外"},{"start":10676.018,"end":10699.831,"text":"你認為全台灣現在企業用短碼的比例大概多高10%有沒有企業如果是銀行就不止10%啦銀行大部分都踩短碼對要看個別的產業的形態不一樣像計程車它搞不好它有短碼對計程車是一個嘛因為我覺得計程車大概會主動發訊息給民眾的機會低啦就是說"},{"start":10700.831,"end":10723.401,"text":"我們會詐騙是因為我收到了比如說第一個可能大量來源是政府機關嘛他告訴我我的稅有問題我的什麼信用卡被盜刷等等叫我跟法院聯絡跟檢察官聯絡跟什麼警察局聯絡嘛這一個叫政府的簡訊第二個簡訊就來自於大型的企業比如說銀行比如說"},{"start":10724.982,"end":10728.725,"text":"你覺得大概要多久?大概全面都有短碼?"},{"start":10752.588,"end":10779.586,"text":"要全面都有短碼因為是涉及到比如說每個因為這個要統一每個有這個產業比如說像我記得那個台客大就變成現在叫935那個中華電信可能是188這個連電信業者他們都還沒有一個統一所以那個可能速度沒有辦法那麼快但是我們會盡快去處理就是說其實它叫什麼碼我沒有關係比如說金管會以後可以統一宣導六碼以下的要短碼只要你是短碼都是真的"},{"start":10781.211,"end":10798.11,"text":"這個民眾啊這個在電信那個那個行政院的防詐平台裡面我沒有提出來這個去處理這個問題對對我的意思只是問說進度到哪裡比例有多高進度到哪裡什麼時候可以達到幾乎都做這樣子這個"},{"start":10800.969,"end":10819.417,"text":"來,我們請我們主秘來跟委員長講一下好,來跟委員報告,因為在通訊解碼這一塊我們大概已經跟在監管會這部分,找監管會來還有銀行業、保險業這部分我們大概已經談定那因為跟電信業這邊兩邊的話必須要就這一個因為通訊解碼你必須要所有業者都承認這個解碼才行"},{"start":10820.497,"end":10820.637,"text":"中華電信銀行"},{"start":10839.864,"end":10867.679,"text":"建立民眾的信任所以這份信任產業部分我們會再努力其實我的理解很簡單因為政府做了111嘛所以我們其實很好宣導政府發放你的你若沒有看到簡訊的開頭是111這都假的我們在農村在鄉下很好跟這些長輩解釋但是你現在除了政府之外其他的我很難解釋"},{"start":10869.042,"end":10890.695,"text":"所以我的意思是說你防詐裡面很簡單嘛你就已經你技術上沒有問題嘛那你也應該很積極相關業務當譬如金管會跟銀行之間保險啊等等或者常常需要發簡訊給客戶的行業他應該要快速趕快來溝通讓他建立起所以下一個階段我的宣導很簡單嘛"},{"start":10892.475,"end":10912.814,"text":"六碼以下叫短碼不是短碼的你都要注意這個可能都詐騙或者短碼六碼短碼以下的通通是不會詐騙啊這樣我們才有辦法宣導啦不然你在那裡漏漏騰在那裡宣導防詐喔那很困難的嘛那科技再走我們要趕快嘛速度嘛就政府做了一一這是好事"},{"start":10913.755,"end":10936.643,"text":"但是做一一算了這些大型的企業我們應該想辦法看是要怎麼透過政策法規怎麼來讓他們快速跟上嘛因為齁這個東西都是沒有效率啦他不做其實都沒有效率嘛就是我以後只要一開始宣導說那個很重的那些都假的他以後發簡訊都是無效簡訊因為不會有人理他嘛"},{"start":10937.762,"end":10961.057,"text":"不會讓人家去點啦希望卡真的有問題你發簡訊也沒用啊反正他也不會去點啊所以對企業的營運來講他都發一大堆無效的簡訊這樣主委理事長我的意思是詐騙還是重中之重這個民眾每天生活在可能隨時被詐騙的環境當中這個是人民的苦啊"},{"start":10962.809,"end":10971.98,"text":"這個比比比你其他NCC的業務啊比剛剛啊那些靜電視啦什麼電視啊民眾的感受他是每一天他都要面對這個問題所以這個問題其實"},{"start":10975.868,"end":10992.413,"text":"一定要把它列為非常重要的當然我講這個不是說只有你的因為這個其實要行政院各部會一起來做嘛但是站在NCC的立場上我們怎麼積極的把民眾的苦把這個所謂台灣的心傷害這個詐騙"},{"start":10994.474,"end":11021.866,"text":"要怎麼來處理我覺得這個其實是非常重要我們會努力這個議題我就會持續關心怎麼樣來做是對民眾來講它是最有效我們在宣導上怎麼樣的方式是最有效以後只要大家都短碼那就很簡單嘛你NCC的宣導也不用那麼累啊警政署的宣導也不用那麼累啊就是直接講不是短碼的都有疑慮啦所以以後他不發短碼他很辛苦嘛"},{"start":11022.986,"end":11027.888,"text":"我覺得要逼大家啦,快一點好,謝謝蔡吉章副院長,謝謝接下來請林德福委員發言"},{"start":11050.584,"end":11058.234,"text":"謝謝主委、謝謝召委是不是請NCC主任委員陳主委陳主委請"},{"start":11063.883,"end":11090.074,"text":"委員好主委我請教因為現在NCC有7位委員中其中有4個人將於7月底任命那其中包括NCC主委您本人那依行政院必須在3個月前提名新任的委員送交國會來行使人事同意權後任命但法條也另外有明定NCC委員任期屆滿未能依規定"},{"start":11090.894,"end":11119.063,"text":"提任時,原任的委員之任期得延至新任委員就職前的一日為止,不受四年期限的限制。那假設這個立法院NCC委員提名審查難產,那沒有辦法產生新的委員,那我請問陳主委,您是否維持原來您的說法,7月底請辭返回校園教書?"},{"start":11120.435,"end":11122.077,"text":"那你要是難產的話你會不會直接就就直接就就一樣"},{"start":11136.896,"end":11138.357,"text":"照常回學校教宿內"},{"start":11160.986,"end":11182.38,"text":"根據媒體的報導包括印度當地的電信詐騙案平緩2019年8月到今天已接獲超過326萬報案大約半數發生在2023年尤其近期許多詐騙案中使用的人頭門號發現大部分都是外籍的移工"},{"start":11183.641,"end":11202.158,"text":"那招貿民來申請那民進黨政府打算引進印度的移工本席提醒NCC要做好把關防範各國移工涉入電話詐騙案件不要讓印度移工未來也成為詐騙的幫兇那個主委您的看法如何"},{"start":11202.859,"end":11204.58,"text":"根據NCC112年的通訊傳播市場報告調查顯示民眾轉換到5G的比例是25.5%"},{"start":11222.449,"end":11250.072,"text":"那未轉換比例有達到72.1%未轉換5G的原因就是70%認為說目前4G的服務已經足夠滿足需求那其次31%的人認為說5G的智慧費用叫4G高確實是如此我本人用5G差很多那既然前餐預算補助電信業者建設這些5G的基地台"},{"start":11250.592,"end":11270.613,"text":"是有補助他們喔業者也應該要回饋消費者對此本期希望NCC要替民眾爭取降掉5G的智慧就是會用不論是新客戶老客戶都要有更優惠5G的會用讓5G用戶來的生透力翻倍成長"},{"start":11271.863,"end":11286.855,"text":"主委您的看法呢我也是認為說這個5G即將邁入第5個第14年5年的這個情況來講那為什麼還那麼少人使用呢因為5G基本上來講它特性跟4G不太一樣5G基本上來講的話除了這個因為"},{"start":11288.376,"end":11294.358,"text":"我是認為應該站在NCC立場裡面因為它用那麼多基地台幾乎都是前瞻預算去補助然後補助以後你們等於是沒有回饋了但是確實是高很多啊"},{"start":11320.331,"end":11339.945,"text":"台北高等行政法院去年5月宣判撤銷NCC在民國109年間對中天新聞台做成不以換照的行政處分那眾所周知行政機關必須依法行政因此行政機關在行政訴訟中被判敗訴是很罕見的"},{"start":11341.286,"end":11349.533,"text":"媒體統計中天對NCC訴訟累積達到15勝15次也驗證過各界對NCC喪失獨立性以及迫害中天新聞台的質疑並非是空穴來風暫時NCC當年的做法有明顯的瑕疵"},{"start":11364.304,"end":11383.691,"text":"昨天到目前只有兩屆是簽署確定而已的其他大部分還是我們NCC申訴的你們在申訴但是那個時間都拉很長啦此外黨政軍退出媒體是全民的共識那靜電視也取得執照的過程屢傳爭議去年3月NCC主委你還因為靜電視執照被列為獨職罪"},{"start":11388.212,"end":11415.359,"text":"他自然的被告這個是立法會委員的檢舉啦但是我們沒有所謂的獨指的問題那個主委啊那因為你任期將屆案子卻還沒有水落石出加深啦全民對民進黨政府只有辦藍跟白不辦綠獨立機關濫用公權力譴制新聞自由那執行行政不中立的印象到目前為止都這樣喔"},{"start":11415.959,"end":11439.598,"text":"我覺得這個是媒體有意的操作不是媒體有意操作因為外界很多人都一直這麼認為所以說你們講NCC外界我聽到很多他們都說這是張CC不是NCC我希望主委你真的要好好的因為既然是要公平公正客觀不要就是"},{"start":11440.419,"end":11444.502,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11471.415,"end":11488.793,"text":"來謝謝主席有請我們陳主委好主委請你好好陳主委那個螢幕呢螢幕螢幕沒有啊"},{"start":11491.448,"end":11511.775,"text":"陳主委我剛剛早上我們在這個成立釣魚小組的時候聽到你一席話我終於覺得任性到現在我們終於有共識了就是政治干預這四個字出來確實我這幾年就發覺NCC很強烈的政治操弄干預不是立法會員干預"},{"start":11513.456,"end":11526.932,"text":"你知道嗎?我們為什麼成立調閱小組?這個遲到了半年到一年的調閱小組終於成立了。原因是什麼?你今天提供我們什麼報告?半年你正式提供一次報告。我說我們徵你的業務報告。"},{"start":11533.761,"end":11554.103,"text":"年度大會的時候你跟我們委員會你那個報告簡單來說大家要關心的事項你在裡面幾乎是沒有什麼題那在你在回答我坦白講我從第一個聽到剛剛第12、13個你的回答"},{"start":11555.485,"end":11575.17,"text":"不過這個會議已經將近兩年了避重就輕了所以我是覺得如果真的有政治干預的話你想想看你十年前的陳耀祥是什麼概念你經過自由時報在採訪的時候這是我跟你認識第二次我就把這句話拿出來請教你今天非常可能是你的"},{"start":11576.47,"end":11598.747,"text":"這個會期 你的畢業會期齁你說什麼話我們形式上 台灣形式上是民主社會但實際上黨國體制的幽靈是蠢蠢欲動一有機會就跑出來危害整個民主社會最可怕的是黨國意識形態透過教育哇108課綱嗎還媒體不斷的複製就像河水一樣"},{"start":11602.33,"end":11624.846,"text":"如果一直加入有毒物質就一直擴散這是一種思想的汙染你這句話是我第二個認同你的我發覺坦白講這幾年我們看到的就是這樣啊你自己如果就到這個會期你就結束了我真的是覺得你好好去想想你說了什麼話"},{"start":11626.36,"end":11648.997,"text":"好 既然你當主委嘛 有兩個代表座 代表座 第一個是中天撤照 這是你第一個代表座不予換照反正中天不予換照撤照記者會 你們在記者會都說什麼咧你保證嘛 沒有政治力介入 7位鑑定人想法一致 對不對這是你們的說法"},{"start":11651.14,"end":11655.322,"text":"好,你不知道什麼是綠營的背景啊但是有一種"},{"start":11670.086,"end":11697.164,"text":"要務叫做時間時間可以證明很多東西當時的七位你不知道他有什麼綠營背景的人這前三位第一位是在去年擔任民進黨中央黨部去年前的仲裁委員第二位第三位平步青雲戰功顯赫已經變成民進黨不分區的立委做我們這一屆的同事嘛所以"},{"start":11697.924,"end":11716.343,"text":"我覺得這個國家NCC交給你你好像一個小白兔一樣已經這麼明顯了你還可以眼睛瞪得很直在那邊鬼扯另外四位呢那當然有聲率的那有兩位呢華視公視的董事誰派的大家親知肚明第一正確的獨立董事"},{"start":11717.774,"end":11745.385,"text":"所以你說的這個話第一個代表作這七位所謂聽證的鑑定人就是在你的眼中是非常中立的沒有藍綠的背景是還是不是是啊到現在還是嘛到目前為止沒有那個啊好就是兩位已經被民進黨立委了我們怎麼知道他們兩位現在會被民進黨的部分組也不知道這個我們這個調會的小組成立的太重要了"},{"start":11745.965,"end":11751.183,"text":"因為你從頭鬼扯到尾嘛這就是中天的一個情況再來看看"},{"start":11752.898,"end":11781.948,"text":"對於生難生慮你怎麼處理你一直講獨立嘛你一直講你中立嘛你一直講你公正但是這要展現在你所有的行政的處分跟態度上面三立宗家案你現在的處理我平常講輿論不滿意的非常非常多當然宗家案處分三立齁是限期改正嘛對不對競電事我整整跟你講了一年嘛所有的交通委員跟你講了一整年啊"},{"start":11782.948,"end":11799.118,"text":"結果他在選舉前開政論節目你們叫限期改正不要鬧笑話選舉都結束了這個本來我們法律就規定這樣子我們只能這樣去處理不是那你NCC沒人在鳥你你沒有覺得很痛苦嗎"},{"start":11799.878,"end":11821.376,"text":"所以我要是你我都覺得很痛苦你知道嗎你的負擔人家不理你你的所有的負擔條款違反了這麼多你也弄不了它所以很多的問題都這樣的好那我想今天再請教你做個結論看看你對中天、三立、靜電視你的態度的差別這也當作你畢業畢業的幾大傑作這個你們"},{"start":11827.785,"end":11851.059,"text":"NCC1103次委員會第3案就討論到宗家三立這個案子那其中是不是有兩位委員提供了一部不同意的意見書 有沒有所以你怕 你很怕立法委員去干預你委員的獨立性啊 請問兩位委員"},{"start":11852.6,"end":11853.14,"text":"他們認為說這個是垂直整合的問題"},{"start":11868.786,"end":11890.567,"text":"但是問題是說我們目前所查到資料山栗是山栗的大股東而且這個部分來講的話他到底是業務的投資還是什麼這個有沒有依照那個比例算起來不知道現在還是不知道是業務的投資不知道是什麼他的投資的比例根本沒有達到所謂的垂直融合的哇全國聽NCG我想不是主委啦那下面這些的官員啦"},{"start":11891.488,"end":11916.242,"text":"真的也是非常可悲啦 人家提的有沒有道理 這不是我提的嘛 黑紫白色我想這不是我提的兩位委員的不同意見書 主要意見是什麼 他講的有道理嘛 他為什麼呢你不能說一個人騙我們 或他不老實 他已經違規違法了他做不能做的事情 只是因為他騙了我三年 我不知道"},{"start":11917.205,"end":11926.957,"text":"所以在這三年我本來知道不該給他的那我也給了那你現在事後知道了你要不要處理他的意見就是這樣109年107年就開始齁"},{"start":11932.915,"end":11958.351,"text":"我們三立反正透過多層次入主宗家反正你們也查了嘛也違規違法了嘛這就不要講囉他的意思是說你到了112年9月立法院委員提出檢舉之後你才知道這件事情這兩位委員的意思就是說哎喲他不能110年他已經幹了這個事情然後三立財經移平通過110年12月"},{"start":11961.193,"end":11980.171,"text":"換照通過然後111年5月112年7月新聞台換照通過這個都不算啦你告訴我們說他下次喔下次再換照的時候他上次就騙我們你要怎麼處理這兩位委員不是我說的喔兩位委員說這個都要重審"},{"start":11981.252,"end":12008.657,"text":"那你們完全沒有參考你所謂獨立委員的意見嗎?我們所以是在實驗在有些相關的案子裡面我們本來就是他這個部分要重新說明沒有錯啊這個案子我們手上還有很多還有一些三例的案子在出國那你是準備重審嗎?移民大法移回來嗎?我們在討論嗎?因為這個本來就不是我一個人可以決定的問題好啦我跟你講進電視啊你去年已經浪費我們一整年的時間了後面討論到最後那就乾脆不要討論了齁"},{"start":12010.273,"end":12011.273,"text":"好 謝謝魯明哲委員的發言"},{"start":12040.649,"end":12055.176,"text":"下位請賴思寶委員發言有沒有中間上洗手間的可以自己處理謝謝主席有請陳主委委員好"},{"start":12068.069,"end":12092.692,"text":"你好從早上到現在大家對你的一個評價其實大家都知道你在主政NCC的這幾年當中你總共當主委當幾年當主委當幾年就是從那個2020年的8月1號到目前大概3年多吧所以這一任下來就一任4年對一任4年"},{"start":12094.158,"end":12119.951,"text":"大家對你的感對你就是你把NCC東廠化你前置言論自由你自己講的所以這個沒有百分之百的言論自由你居然今天講的不是任何的言論都是屬於言論自由啦我剛意思是這樣民主可貴定在言論自由啊所以你還是堅定沒有言論自由當然保障言論自由啊你還是堅定"},{"start":12121.573,"end":12129.525,"text":"沒有百分之百的言論自由那你又殺人放火恐嚇這個算言論自由嗎這是言論啊但是他不是言論自由保障的言論啊"},{"start":12130.66,"end":12155.975,"text":"我跟你講的不是這個東西你很清楚的媒體的你關中田到現在為止15件官司你都輸請問你都繼續我現在10件當中沒有15件的問題啦你都繼續要上訴嗎請問你不要一直插話好不好不好意思我跟委員會打請問你你都確定都要上訴嗎那我們委員會討論啊要不要上訴我問你嘛要不要上訴是委員會要討論啊討論我都沒有"},{"start":12159.114,"end":12184.353,"text":"那像比如說中天的我們已經上訴了啊上訴幾件上訴幾件你可以看那個輸贏的部分嘛那個上訴幾件比如說換照案這個部分來講的話北高行後來我們上訴了嘛上訴請問花多少錢上訴花多少錢就看律師費用了不是這樣子啊你不要一副這個很親面的樣子你不要讓我排桌上跟你講你要很嚴謹回答國會議員的問題啊總共花多少錢你告訴我啊"},{"start":12185.053,"end":12187.854,"text":"全部加起來全部加起來來講的話從那個部分來講的話是682萬吧全部"},{"start":12201.781,"end":12203.622,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12224.99,"end":12234.763,"text":"你結果你做的結果是被人家告然後你告輸了要跟人家打數準備告輸了跟人家打官司這個費用要把你省掉我跟你講來你怎麼你是官員怎麼就糾激了權力"},{"start":12241.811,"end":12249.093,"text":"一、二、再、再、還、三、如果說你輸一件你就不會那麼計較一、二、再、再、還、三、你都輸大評你做得這麼不對嘛所以你到底的你可以看啦加上這個禁電事加上三立入府宗家的事情細節我們就不講了你去年整年度在講的禁電事大家都很清楚嘛"},{"start":12271.089,"end":12296.42,"text":"你完全的偏近電視跟3D然後呢對中天就一腳把他踹掉就是他的做的違反的事項就是干預你講的原來的什麼那個報導什麼問題啦以及公司治理啦這些東西其他電視台也都有出現我們標準都一樣啊標準都一樣沒有其他的這個標準都一樣法規也都一樣啊就是這樣處理了處理結果就不一樣了所以人都一樣我再問你啊"},{"start":12299.488,"end":12304.857,"text":"你確定7月份要離開這個職位嗎?是啊啊如果賴清德找你咧?"},{"start":12305.748,"end":12332.262,"text":"沒有沒有,我學校借掉,因為委員我了解你也是從來來自大學我們借掉這一場就是8年了,我時間到了你8年到了是不是?對對對所以你不會,你不會辭掉?繼續當官員?不會沒有沒有沒有,我回去學校回去學校好!我跟你講喔,你的你的你一定,其實喔,讓你做到7月7月你的任期結束了讓你做好做滿了,其實是很不應該的你應該提早結束喔然後我們的看你喔"},{"start":12335.558,"end":12353.249,"text":"你可以看喔你利用所謂的新世代打擊詐欺的策略行動綱領1.5版你用了地澳與北京有1億元的補助給誰呢?中華電信、台灣過往、新世紀然後"},{"start":12354.27,"end":12367.615,"text":"全部都是這些五大電信公司他們大哥大、永傳幾乎全部都在裡面這個鏈內的我不知道你抓一個東西"},{"start":12369.898,"end":12370.038,"text":"中華電信"},{"start":12393.14,"end":12394.761,"text":"你為什麼可以用第二預備金"},{"start":12408.37,"end":12436.954,"text":"這個……這個……這個……"},{"start":12440.184,"end":12458.614,"text":"我們清楚看得到了你不僅僅在這些的決定要不要撤照啦要不要換照啦完全是一個正式考量另一部分一抓住機會像原來的建基地台也是一樣這個回饋啊回饋這個五大電信商一百五十幾億"},{"start":12459.634,"end":12477.168,"text":"都是很明顯的看到他NCC的瀆職現象有夠明顯你不要回答我我明顯講話你不要回答你不要回答齁讓我講因為我時間到了齁我要結束我的我的質詢就是NCC可以看得到他的判斷完全正式考量"},{"start":12477.708,"end":12501.773,"text":"他在用錢的部分想盡辦法找人名目就補助給這個五大電信商防疫的時候補助幾億這個時候啊都要宣稱他們都是免費的結果不是耶結果都是你買單千千就能看得到這個我建議呢主委你對立委執行不要手插在前面非常敵意非常敵意喔不能這樣子國會電台是多麼嚴肅的請你仔細聽喔"},{"start":12505.634,"end":12522.727,"text":"立委跟你我時間到我就不講了齁我就是最後一句話告訴你不能夠你的判斷都是政治判斷然後呢抓住機會就補助給送錢給財團人民不能接受花委員這個都是法定預算經過大會的審議啦好謝謝好謝謝賴世保委員的發言下一位請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":12541.191,"end":12548.209,"text":"主席．在場的委員先進．列席的政府監事長．官員．會長．工作夥伴．媒體記者女士先生有請陳主委主委請"},{"start":12555.373,"end":12575.709,"text":"委員好 主委你在今天的試問報告當中的第17頁提到說提升本國自製節目的能量益助資源活水 活絡電視產業發展這裡面包括我們本土自製的頻道商的內容產業 對不對是好 那我們來看一下 這個頻道商呢他就是在我們的第4台那過去你也知道我過去在地方總任任職期間也審查過"},{"start":12576.69,"end":12591.585,"text":"有限電視就是MSO的費率那目前我們不管大概五十幾家系統業者大概分成四大、五大集團嘛凱波、台股、中佳、台塑等等等那最近的這些業者啊MSO的業者紛紛叫苦啊說過去呢我們的收視戶啊有520萬降到現在剩451萬你覺得對於我們的本國的產業是不是一個很嚴重的威脅"},{"start":12598.652,"end":12625.349,"text":"大家都不用不定看不看有些件事了都去看國外定的手機的播送了你覺得呢這個應該是說我們系統業者這邊來講這個通路的確那個用戶在減少那你們怎麼知道這個數字450萬戶這450萬戶我們每年都有統計數字你們統計是系統跟你報的對不對那因為你也參加費率的審查嘛費率審查我們看到財報嘛財報會說我有多少用戶嘛就像台電照他有多少用戶台手又照他有多少用戶是不是這樣"},{"start":12626.109,"end":12654.82,"text":"所以用戶這是透明的是不是他承報出來的那他收了多少錢也知道花了多少錢在哪裡都知道好 那我們看一下那現在我們來看一下NSO這個往前一頁他說我這邊看到一個說法是說他們目前收費呢假設是510的話那個版權費呢大概佔了240那系統呢大概270對於這樣的數字你是不是大概有個類似差不多接近市場的現況這個就是我們傳統所講的240俱樂部了OK好那我們來看一下"},{"start":12655.84,"end":12685.28,"text":"這是事實來MSO商收了錢他跟誰收錢那他跟用戶收錢收了錢之後他要付給誰他要付給頻道商對不對權利金那頻道商除了這個收權費用的收入他也收了廣告費是不是這樣子所以頻道商的收入廣告費跟版權費因為頻道商主要的這些頻道商偉來東森八大TVS飛凡等等等因為你們都會要他做年度報告所以他們的這些權利金的收入廣告費你也知道"},{"start":12686.248,"end":12686.512,"text":"有沒辦法?"},{"start":12688.022,"end":12717.018,"text":"應該有一些是屬於他們財報裡面但是不會很細節的但就是一個總總結大概知道所以你們定期審查頻道上的公共信息所以知道權力監管收費的大概的數字對不對好那我請教一下這個最近的近期報導這個數字有點怪怪的剛剛出現是451萬戶他們承包給你的但是我們看到一個新聞的迪士尼他五個頻道他每個月收取22塊一年可以收減7.4億我把它倒推回去他的授權費迪士尼是不是"},{"start":12719.606,"end":12737.89,"text":"這絕大部分的用戶家裡都會有頻道在他撤出之前所以他這個戶數就等於是全國的用戶嘛每個系統都有嘛少數沒有這個齁他們頻道授權他們有沒有打有時候還會有打折的問題打折我不管嘛我是說他呈現出來的戶數是280萬戶啦"},{"start":12740.191,"end":12755.341,"text":"你們目前有沒有審查到頻道上的數字有出現大概我聽到一個數字是282萬加減3萬大概就是目前這些全國都有的必選台的啦我打開哪一個系統都有得起來好像新聞台啦這個大概是在這個數字上下你們有沒有掌握這個數字"},{"start":12756.081,"end":12773.906,"text":"我們掌握的是有線電視的451萬的那個數目沒有沒有沒有沒有你們在審我剛問過你了嘛往前跳你忘了嗎我才問說你們就訊查他的頻道收入你不是知道他的廣告費他的版權費嗎請那個我們有那個平台數跟內容數跟委員報告一下好不好簡單快點好不好時間有限往下看"},{"start":12775.226,"end":12789.198,"text":"我們這邊業者有些那些系統來呈報的是他們的訂戶數那委員您剛剛頻道上他們的收入版權收入有沒有有沒有有會出現像剛剛這個280萬戶的數字有沒有老實說有沒有你們完全沒有照這個數字我們沒有這個數字"},{"start":12791.3,"end":12820.203,"text":"你們沒有數字?OK那這個如果說查出來這個數字恐怕你們在國會上的備詢就要說明一下齁好但是這個280萬戶跟這個450萬戶我從第10年來核算現在有一個情況齁月聽大眾每個月大概平均付525元加起來呢大概啊是290億一個月一年大概6500一年大概290億但是頻道商收到多少錢呢280萬戶他能收多少錢你們有沒有掌握"},{"start":12822.475,"end":12838.667,"text":"二百八十萬戶來講的話：他收了多少錢：有沒有從兩百九十萬收了多少錢在他們的版費收入就是說二四兩百四十元嘛一戶兩百四十元就是依照他那個頻率去付給系統業者MSO付了多少錢買他們的授權"},{"start":12839.428,"end":12840.469,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":12860.952,"end":12878.057,"text":"頻道商只有跟你懲罰離島三家我們省的部分只有這三家啦那這電視頻道有限電視用的頻道沒有他收到的授權金多少你不知道根委員報告基本上來講頻道商都是透過頻道代理上的問題對好現在我就知道最後的重點了"},{"start":12879.357,"end":12904.511,"text":"現在頻道代理商大概有這幾家啦 凱波啦 家訓啦 全國啦就是後面是數 中家現在呢我們如果是寫MSO的費率我大概知道他付了多少權利金給頻道代理商這會知道 對不對但是這個頻道代理商付了多少錢給頻道呢我們要從頻道端來查頻道端能不能知道他們付了多少收了多少版權收入知不知道你們這裡有沒有辦法查"},{"start":12905.8,"end":12925.511,"text":"頻道端收到了多少收到了多少廣告費收到了多少版權收入能不能查得到因為基本上來除非有特別的什麼樣案子我們不會那你們手上目前有沒有什麼特別案子你們掌握了他收到的版權有沒有有沒有沒有目前沒有版權的收費收費的部分廣告收入有沒有"},{"start":12927.43,"end":12938.552,"text":"廣告收入應該會有一些啦但是不是完整的我知道不管是不是每一家啦你們目前有沒有頻道的部分你們收到了他的版權收入或者廣告收入這個數在你們手上有沒有"},{"start":12940.389,"end":12965.006,"text":"有,那版權收入呢?你們沒有辦法拿到?確定?那版權收入呢?來,主委,如果你們拿到了廣告收入,為什麼拿不到版權收入?不是很好查嗎?他的財報啊,他從哪裡收入多少錢,收入到廣告費用,有沒有介入?有嘛,財報會介入嘛,那版權收入怎麼不會介入?你回去查一下好不好?"},{"start":12966.384,"end":12966.724,"text":"委員會主任委員長"},{"start":12983.131,"end":13000.258,"text":"頻道商收到的頻道代理商的錢大概只有280萬戶收到的版權收入來最後的結論所以我是說為了避免民眾操繳第4台的費用請你們調查版權中心就是頻道代理商他的股權結構到底他是誰成立的"},{"start":13001.418,"end":13017.506,"text":"據我所知我上次有問過因為他很多都是這四大集團五大集團他們成立的代理商那因此呢你們可以查得到他付多少錢給自己設立的版權中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道去買他們的節目這個你們要查可不可以"},{"start":13018.647,"end":13038.584,"text":"我認為這個是可能要法律的授權這個部分來講的話你們不是手頭上就有了嗎但是那個財報沒有辦完到很細的所謂這個要有法律的授權你才看得到嗎請問要出自哪個法你們才看得到你們現在去看系統業者MSO的財報我就看過啊有限電視裡面也寫很清楚啊對"},{"start":13039.204,"end":13067.19,"text":"但是那時是一個營業的總收入total的部分沒有,如果是MSA的財報這些都看得到但是只是看得到付了多少錢給版權代理中心但是版權中心付了多少錢給頻道商要從頻道商來看那我建議你是不是因為我過去在財委會這些頻道代理商這個頻道商如果是上市上櫃公司這個通通都看得到你們要不要去查如果是上市上櫃公司當然可以查那你們要不要查那如果有需要可以幫我們查一下"},{"start":13067.97,"end":13068.27,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":13088.141,"end":13113.774,"text":"頻道的這個版權中心他收到多少收益那我們才能確定你的第17頁講的你怎麼去益助資源活水活絡電視產業嘛他們是內容生產者嘛我們主要補助那個是在於所謂的我不是要你補助我說他可以從我們收視戶付的錢當中拿到多少去做節目你覺得這重不重要這當然很重要很重要那請你三個月內提出幾個再重出一次喔"},{"start":13114.474,"end":13116.275,"text":"二、邀請國家通訊傳播委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":13138.45,"end":13138.57,"text":"主席謝謝"},{"start":13170.834,"end":13197.884,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請陳耀祥主委好主委請大家好陳主委兩個議題跟你討論第16頁你今天的業務報告裡面特別有強調說加強抽驗無線機上核也就是我們比較俗稱的不管什麼安卓盒子安博盒子等等嘛對不對到目前為止到底市面上有沒有所謂NCC認證的這些電視機上核"},{"start":13200.37,"end":13204.474,"text":"但是現在網路上我隨便在拍賣網站上面查都還是可以查得到什麼越獄破解版什麼"},{"start":13226.536,"end":13247.965,"text":"最新升級有發票有保固豪華越獄版那這一些算是合法還非法跟委員報告一下就是說我們有個OTTTV平台就是這樣有些東西是我們處理我們負責那個刑事驗證那這個剛剛委員所關心的這個部分是侵權的問題就是侵害著作權的問題我們有請那個所謂相關檢調還有檢調還有那個警察去處理這個議題"},{"start":13251.266,"end":13252.448,"text":"本席會認為是說這一件事情其實從過去到現在我們一而再再三在討論"},{"start":13269.568,"end":13286.582,"text":"但是到目前為止你只要上拍賣網站都還是可以查你甚至不用任何的技巧不用任何的關鍵字啊你就打入第10代第9代第11代豪華越獄版而且本席就覺得說感覺是向公權力挑戰啊"},{"start":13287.162,"end":13315.192,"text":"越獄破解版馬上可看甚至上面還有講什麼還有講說這是NCC認證啊但是本席一查用那個型號一丟進你們的這個網站上面一查抱歉他出現是什麼他出現是本驗證證明已經廢止換言之什麼換言之業者他就是用一個似是而非的一個序號好像讓他以為是NCC認證官方掛保證但實際上不是啊"},{"start":13315.552,"end":13315.813,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":13330.834,"end":13349.68,"text":"跟您報告一下那個我們這個安博的盒子因為會認證是因為社平器材那社平器材在網路上在販售的確是有我們每年大概會通被檢舉的陳情案件大概兩萬八千多件那我們邀請我們有跟那個那個數位部恰電商平台去幫我們注意一下像委員剛才提到的"},{"start":13350.04,"end":13378.303,"text":"他這個標示的內容如果是已經是我們廢止的或者是他根本沒有標示認證我們也請他去推那本席想請教到目前為止本席上來之前都還可以查詢的到輕易可以搜尋的到那是哪一個單位那就變成是我們行政單位應作為不作為我們都一直在跟電商平台特別是有特定的那個的電商平台我們都我們其實前幾天還發文去把一些那個犯規的這個情形那所以是電商平台不理你們"},{"start":13378.983,"end":13401.218,"text":"不理NCC本席搜尋的道是事實有這些事件持續的不斷發生也是事實我們過去到現在交通委員會一而再再而三強調這樣子侵犯租作財產權現在侵犯閱聽大眾以及內容產生者的權利也是事實本席想問到底環節出了什麼問題要人給人要錢給錢你們一直強調是說這個跨部會通盤檢討合作"},{"start":13408.403,"end":13429.669,"text":"但是重點就是說 層出不窮啊那我們也是一直跟數位部 數位部也是幫我們跟電商平台去做這到底是NCC的責任還是數位部的責任還是又要再甩鍋沒有沒有 電商平台交通委員會就是 你說數位部 數位部一號就說NCC NCC就說可能是警政署沒有沒有 各位也不知道 這本來就是共同努力我們都有共同 都有"},{"start":13430.129,"end":13453.762,"text":"我們甚至也到市場上實體店面我們也去找網路我們都定期是找那個通人叫通人上去看所以這個處理這個案件不要讓本席覺得是說我們隨便搜尋都比你們說有編列預算有專責人員來有用有效來主委在下你的任期到7月31號嘛是"},{"start":13455.226,"end":13471.406,"text":"這件事情我可不可以請教7月31號以前我們還會在這些拍賣平台上面看到這些違法的事情嗎我們會努力去掃蕩有沒有辦法保證有沒有辦法能夠行刑好幫忙國人幫忙這些我們內容產生者"},{"start":13472.711,"end":13494.987,"text":"我們一定努力去打雜你努力了多久時間了你過去多少時間努力這本來就是不斷發生的事情我們不斷去處理嘛各位最近有一個很紅的國片阿叫做周楚廚山駭阿我知道阿本席最後一分鐘要把周楚廚山駭這一句話送給你因為"},{"start":13496.314,"end":13510.835,"text":"在過去你擔任NCC主委任內確實已經讓國人對NCC很不信任如果有民意調查或是不信任指數的話我想NCC會是排在前三名甚至第一名因為偏撥"},{"start":13512.321,"end":13533.811,"text":"所以最後這兩三個月的時間很多的委員剛剛已經質詢了包括中天新聞台連15敗你說還在上訴你還在上訴沒關係但是從過去前任主委一年只有編列150萬的法律訴訟費用到你上任之後每年編列600萬、700萬去年編列1300萬今年編列685萬"},{"start":13539.594,"end":13567.743,"text":"重點就是NCC的訴訟層出不窮所以本席最後周楚除三害第一害把國人過去NCC侵犯新聞自由言論自由的害給解決回來第二害用一樣的標準去檢視所有的新聞台以及第三害好好的跟國人你最後還有時間喔"},{"start":13568.925,"end":13596.337,"text":"我覺得你應該要跟國人說明清楚到底過去是誰受益誰支持要你關掉中天新聞台可以跟國人說明清楚周楚除傷害最重要跪就是跪在他到最後良心發現認清自己是罪魁禍首認清自己是傷害台灣新聞自由言論自由的人如果說你沒有這個自知的話本席"},{"start":13598.557,"end":13625.196,"text":"會認為你卸任之後不是事情的結束有可能還會再跑法院到時候現在不講清楚法院一樣會見到這是本席給你的忠告周楚除三害請你好好的記在心裡我個人不是周楚我們也是依法去處理這個事情謝謝能夠除三害的時候好好利用這個時間啊我們就不是周楚怎麼會有除三害的問題那誰是周楚誰是三害啊這兩個啊"},{"start":13628.51,"end":13634.592,"text":"主委不管您是不是州處本期今天來送你一程我想NCC"},{"start":13658.313,"end":13682.45,"text":"這個戰功彪炳啊身為民進黨的馬前卒奮戰不遺餘力連促轉會啊要稱自己為東廠都比不上NCC因為有你在真的了不起中天被你關掉以後到現在我們變成一個全世界第一線的民主國家因為你而讓台灣的形象蒙羞"},{"start":13684.271,"end":13711.116,"text":"現在再過來進電視不得了哇這個進電視你可以啊公然讓一個所謂的電視台兩個月之間換了五個董事長換完之後從裴偉先生到陳建平先生到李永豐先生楊雅喆女士再到鄭雲優董事長好"},{"start":13712.409,"end":13725.4,"text":"去年6月有條件通過附帶決議大股東不得移轉股權移轉了沒有?本席都已經告訴你陪委的帳號匯錢給這些大股東大股東也承認了立法委員也拿著錄音帶到這裡來講了你辦了什麼事?"},{"start":13738.823,"end":13765.497,"text":"基本上來講我們是依照他們的相關資料去處理而且跟委員報告本來這個董建設邊緣是公司治理一環只要他沒有違反法律的相關資料就處理聽人的權益什麼叫公司一環胡說八道兩千三百萬的權益聽人的權益什麼叫公司一環你就只有書面審查我們當然請他大會陳述意見沒有胡說八道我們是跟委員據實報告我現在告訴你陳泰銘先生的帳號有收到多少錢"},{"start":13766.972,"end":13784.527,"text":"陳記財先生有收到多少錢?朱文穎先生賬號收到多少錢?蘇永平先生賬號收到多少錢?朱少華先生賬號收到多少錢?葉國毅先生賬號收到多少錢?李良齊先生賬號收到多少錢?本席最後一次正告你"},{"start":13786.243,"end":13813.409,"text":"你就是貪污賭職的被告不會因為你下台不會因為你下台本席就會停止來追捕你我們沒有收賄沒有炒股沒有炒地皮沒有這個問題5G你超出了980億在投標之前正式公告招標須知投標後你又補助了150億"},{"start":13816.315,"end":13830.142,"text":"這不是賭職 什麼叫賭職 這是圖利 什麼叫圖利立法院在這再三告訴NCC 超收981 要回饋整個使用大眾你補助了150幾億 談到了降低多少匯率"},{"start":13835.896,"end":13837.537,"text":"打炸國家隊越打越炸現在炸氣氛已經是從台灣輸出到全世界"},{"start":13864.732,"end":13890.251,"text":"臺灣輸出到全世界這是另類的臺灣奇蹟臺灣的詐騙集團是舉世聞名我想本席不曉得您是不是州處但是你絕對是大集團的議員本席要再請教你一下這個蠻好奇的行政院去年通過一個"},{"start":13891.986,"end":13918.033,"text":"新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版役注13億元給打詐國家隊請問國家隊的議員現在有效果嗎我們至少就我們NCC的部分對於所謂的境外的來話的攔阻跟所謂的警示光去年到今年降低了到85%增加了33%"},{"start":13922.438,"end":13923.459,"text":"今天教育委員會已經要成立了"},{"start":13932.537,"end":13960.047,"text":"本席會調查你所有一切貪賭的行為然後呢我們會本席會跟你長相左右本席還希望您真的是周楚不是周楚然後呢第一害叫民進黨第二害叫柯建民第三害叫陳耀祥這三害能夠早點除掉的話台灣會更好同不同意不可能同意這個慕志明上可以寫你不同意好不好"},{"start":13961.291,"end":13979.026,"text":"委員不要隨便給他講慕志敏好,謝謝我們總召副委員下一位請王宏威委員王宏威,王宏威不在請羅廷偉委員發言羅廷偉,羅廷偉不在陳靜瑜委員發言"},{"start":14001.445,"end":14022.562,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請主席請我們陳主委主委請委員好好,主委好所以針對我們這個電信的詐欺問題我想在此來就教我們陳主委那因為我們"},{"start":14023.764,"end":14045.33,"text":"說實在最近這個詐騙案層出不窮那政府也有效的在打詐那對於台灣民眾最關心的相關議題不管各黨各派的委員我相信都相繼都在詢問這個問題那大家關心這個打詐的成效那今天本席也對於這個問題我想說來請教主委"},{"start":14046.71,"end":14052.319,"text":"跟主委討論一下對於這個電信詐騙案的逐年暴政那我們從這個"},{"start":14056.348,"end":14082.998,"text":"去年的我們法務部到立法院來做專題報告的時候所提供的這張數據看起來可以看到新收集到的相關電信詐騙案件是逐年上升占全國新收案件的占比率也都不斷的往上跳不但越來越多的國人受騙司法系統也難以消化那在宜蘭縣來看在去年"},{"start":14083.638,"end":14084.519,"text":"其中我想請教主委就是這個人頭門號的問題"},{"start":14103.463,"end":14125.274,"text":"現在已經有許多的這個詐騙案是利用申辦這種漫遊或是預付卡的方式人頭門號來作為犯罪的工具讓檢警在偵查的時候往往難以查證到對方的真實身分變成這個辦案的一個斷點那對於這種大量的人頭門號產生造成詐騙案難以追查的問題"},{"start":14126.175,"end":14147.906,"text":"我們作為主管機關NCC我們有什麼樣的一個因應的措施謝謝委員的提問謝謝委員非常關心這個我們現在全民最關注這個詐騙的問題那NCC這邊來講的話我們是從源頭管理去強化這個電信業者的門號管控的問題就剛剛委員所提的就是說很多問題都出在那裡"},{"start":14148.846,"end":14164.819,"text":"本身來講如果像大電信業者像MMO像中華電信、台客大、遠傳這個基本上比較沒有什麼太大的就我們目前所查目前來講的話問題比較沒有那麼大最大的問題是在原來有很多的那種他的企業客戶也就是說我們原來很多的所謂MV、MO所謂虛擬的行動業者這個部分"},{"start":14167.361,"end":14189.681,"text":"那為了落實這個源頭管理而且取得這個法律的依據我們除了給這個電信業者相關的這些指引以外最重要的是我們現在在訂這個所謂的用戶號碼管理使用辦法我們可以這個所謂的MMO就是像三大電信還有他的企業客戶這些相關的所謂的用戶的KYC認識你的用戶的問題"},{"start":14190.962,"end":14209.004,"text":"透過這個部分來講的確我們在這個部分源頭的部分有大量降低了這些所謂的冒用或是用人頭的帳號的這個部分那只是說這個犯罪的問題就剛剛委員所提的這個東西可能完全根絕只是我們一一努力把這個所謂的數量數字壓下去"},{"start":14210.626,"end":14227.717,"text":"主委我們像現在有一些軟體的APP它的功能其實都有實質在幫助到民眾對於詐騙機這個電話的一個過濾那我也希望說我們不管是我們NCC主動去開發這種軟體或是配合這相關業者來做這個把關"},{"start":14232.74,"end":14258.618,"text":"假設這個電話號碼經過許多人反映說這是詐騙電話我們應該是要主動出擊讓這個電話不能再使用我們現在很多的那個APP的確有防詐的功能在裡面那當然是說普遍使用的程度就像委員你來自宜蘭我們宜蘭有些鄉親可能或是包括我們中央部他可能對年紀的關係他對那個數位的使用比較沒有那麼習慣這部分我們都會加強防"},{"start":14259.318,"end":14276.783,"text":"那個所謂的宣導而且我們也會要求這些電信業者予以必要的協助去降低這些所謂受詐的這個機會我希望是要落實管理我們希望電信業者應該要對於這個詐騙案的重視啊當然不是因為不能說你因為你在賺錢啊這個過程都不需要去查假設發現到詐騙電話應該電信業者"},{"start":14281.944,"end":14286.709,"text":"對這個部分我希望NCC應該是要主動跟這些電信業者做比較有效的溝通請他們來配合假設這種詐騙案如果還是層出不窮"},{"start":14304.966,"end":14327.785,"text":"我希望這個第一類的電信業者也要負連帶的這個責任對,所以我們目前在做的相關事情方向就是這樣去處理這樣子才能夠有效來管制到這些電信業者也能夠保護到民眾這個使用者的一個安全避免這個詐騙案一直層出不窮的在所有的這個每一個角落這樣發生以上我請我們NCC應該要這個加強來對這個"},{"start":14331.588,"end":14354.273,"text":"相關這個案子的一個關心好,謝謝我們主委好,謝謝陳靜瑜委員發言蕭若晴、陳培鈺委員發言於,謝謝,對不起好,謝謝主席,那有請主委,謝謝好,請主委,謝謝"},{"start":14361.415,"end":14389.344,"text":"主委午安主委辛苦了我們時間有限想要跟主委討論一下這些年因為台灣還有全球電視頻道產業的整個收視狀況都非常的不一樣那很多頻道跟很多服務都在面臨轉型我相信主委你一定非常清楚那在這個轉播權利經市場比較沒有那麼好的台灣其實很多體育頻道都受到相關的衝擊那2020Fox體育台的停播這個部分不知道主委你有沒有印象"},{"start":14390.919,"end":14418.127,"text":"我講的是2020的Fox體育台那在去年呢這個網路上一個名言叫做消失那個變了心的女朋友是回不來那什麼東西回不來消失的影音資料主委一定覺得很奇怪為什麼投影片上這個是空白的因為這個相關的訪問在這個頻道離開台灣之後他們就再也看不見了於是呢如果你去個別的臉書網頁上看你會發現完全沒有資料了那"},{"start":14418.927,"end":14439.007,"text":"這樣子其實是台灣體育文化重大的損失我們接下來看可是回到NCC有四大核心價值其中有一個叫做多元與本國文化要促進多元文化均衡發展還要維護本國文化跟在地認同不知道主委你認不認同體育文化是很重要的本國文化跟在地認同的一個項目"},{"start":14439.788,"end":14459.805,"text":"當然,體育是一個國立的展現也是一個全民移居的項目所以從剛剛一路鋪陳到現在體育台的撤出、體育影音資料的消失主委過去在相關的委員會裡面你們有沒有進行過類似的討論或是類似的政策規劃我們現在目前來講話我們在就是說我們現在在討論說適度的尤其是轉播的部分"},{"start":14460.505,"end":14479.622,"text":"除了說體育台以外來講的話我們是不是相關的其他頻道有可能有讓它適度露出尤其是像那個所謂的奧運、亞運或是這些重大的賽事當然剛剛委員所關注的是包括我們平常的一些所謂職業球賽這個部分或者是棒球這個部分這個我們平常都有在關注當中"},{"start":14480.545,"end":14496.708,"text":"關注當中的意思是什麼聽起來應該還沒有太具體的規劃沒關係我時間有限我想要跟主委您再次確認那去年我們在文化部的國務院中心有提到類似的案子或者是呢像今天去日本拼國會外交的核心傳委員對NCC都有類似的要求"},{"start":14497.449,"end":14522.871,"text":"也就是說其實有非常多立法委員都一直在提醒NCC這件事情真的非常非常重要所以有沒有機會我們都認為在未來OTT落地的審查或者是目前現有電視台可能退場NCC是不是要提早做出準備NCC跟文化部是不是可以在體育文化這個部分作為影視文化保存的共同努力的對象所以因為時間有限我們可不可以就一個一個來確認在最後一分半鐘"},{"start":14523.752,"end":14549.478,"text":"我們強烈要求NCC可不可以針對Fast體育臺退出臺灣後續相關影像目前留存的狀況做出相關確認?包委員這部分來講可能涉及到所謂的著作權的問題如果著作權可以解決當然進行全面性的保護我們也是非常贊成但是著作權的議題還有相關的預算的議題還有維護的這個議題如果可以解決我們當然是希望把這些相關的內容可以保存下來"},{"start":14549.838,"end":14549.878,"text":"主席"},{"start":14569.271,"end":14594.097,"text":"所以我們在第四點就有提到NCC可不可以主動的跟文化部還有體育署開始來共同會商未來要把如何把相關的要求納入新設頻道或是OTT的落地審查條件如果我們沒有現在開始做這些事情我們很難想像更多的體育影像它就在此沒有如同您剛剛說的FOX體育台退出台灣"},{"start":14594.637,"end":14604.644,"text":"他後續要考慮到版權的問題還有影像維持的問題所以再回頭追可能會很辛苦第二個NCC可不可以針對電視頻道加入片庫保存狀況調查"},{"start":14607.107,"end":14630.574,"text":"調查是沒問題但是剛剛委員所講的這些要納入這個審查條件可是一旦開始調查那就是如果相關的法規需要修正我相信立法院的跨黨派立法委員絕對會支持因為體育文化絕對是跨黨派很重要的共同語言所以如同您剛剛說的如果可以開啟相關調查後續的相關法規或是政策或是預算我相信立法院都會支持那我們辦公室也會持續來跟NCC討論這個"},{"start":14632.315,"end":14651.993,"text":"第三個協調頻道業者提供版權跟備份檔案建置電視節目的資料庫這個剛剛一樣有版權的問題有維持的問題有預算的問題但是我們還是要請主委是不是可以明確的表態您是支持這個方向去賣金的這方向沒問題但是說我在法規上如果可以去解決這個問題相關預算可以解決問題我們也是希望朝著這方面去處理"},{"start":14652.694,"end":14680.939,"text":"但是我相信今天開啟的這個討論絕對會對於後續的政策或是預算規劃推動絕對是有意義的那最後我剛剛講跟文化部跟體育署過往可能沒有這樣的工作經驗但是絕對是非常重要所以也請主委是不是再次肯認這個好謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培宇委員夏蕙琴鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才不在劉許廷委員劉許廷劉許廷不在"},{"start":14681.843,"end":14700.354,"text":"廖謙祥委員,廖謙祥,廖謙祥不在。林楚英委員,林楚英,林楚英不在。請鄭正前委員發言。主席好,我想請阿成主委。好,主委請。"},{"start":14708.217,"end":14726.489,"text":"主委好 那個NCC從2006年成立到現在18年了 那到你為止歷經有6位主委那你之前是表示說你要做到7月份對不對 你就要回學校去 確定是這樣子嗎因為我那個戒掉任期已經到了 戒掉時間到了"},{"start":14726.943,"end":14730.084,"text":"為什麼特別提這個點因為過去這六屆的主委當中的時候你如果到七月你等於是也坐了非常的長可是我要講一個狀態是就是人死流民報死流皮"},{"start":14752.132,"end":14767.817,"text":"在任任期當中也是一個爭議最大的一個主委很多媒體很多委員都覺得說你是打壓媒體最利的一個主委然後也是行政最不中立的一個主委然後漢字前言論自由"},{"start":14776.263,"end":14789.973,"text":"因為你剩下的時間大概如果說還到7月你還有好幾個月的時間我希望你多做一點有功德的事情就是不要就是一直在這邊講那我要講一個點就是說今天因為我們有兩個臨題一個臨題的部分就是針對進電視調閱小組的一個提案"},{"start":14795.317,"end":14813.572,"text":"這個部分我本系列是百分之百的支持這個是去年就是6月28號我們去NCC你把我們鎖在外頭你把自己鎖在裡頭你把我們辦公室佔了咧不是這樣子你們完全不讓我們去監督這個部分"},{"start":14815.693,"end":14841.889,"text":"這個事情我覺得很清楚所以今天我們委員會這邊成立進電視調閱小組我們希望能夠在你在離開這個位置之前我們能夠把這個問題好好的一個釐清那同時還有另外一個案就是譴責案啦另外一個譴責案就是主委能夠做到被委員會就是通過譴責案我覺得也是不容易啦那這裡面很清楚提到說"},{"start":14843.01,"end":14863.753,"text":"就是您針對國家通訊傳播委員會ACC主委陳耀祥．踐踏民主監督機制．敗壞官德官真嚴重藐視國會的行徑．莫此為勝亦以嚴厲的譴責本席也非常的認同這個狀態雖然我不是交通委員會的可是我要特別講一個點就是"},{"start":14866.816,"end":14889.973,"text":"針對淨電視這個案子現在有調閱小組出來然後針對中天案的狀態十個案當中十五個案子都輸十五個案都輸十五省都輸十個案子十五省都失敗了這十個案子包括了民進黨肇事"},{"start":14890.734,"end":14910.787,"text":"大家要離開這個事情一審勝跟一審上訴也勝鳳凰雲暗的時候二審勝跟一審勝跟審上訴勝還是勝大政治大報告討論農漁業滯銷的問題一審勝小韓粉嗆扁味和罵韓國瑜二審勝及卡舊命前養文滅韓一審勝及蔡"},{"start":14920.839,"end":14924.52,"text":"在這個部分當中的時候我們發現我們NCC這3年來的時候敗訴率是多少可以給我一個數字"},{"start":14950.492,"end":14951.294,"text":"總體敗訴率是多少?"},{"start":14960.819,"end":14974.764,"text":"我們統計2016到2023年那總共確定了有68件那其中20件敗訴48件是勝訴那這裡面我說明一下20件敗訴其中11件是黨政軍的問題你直接給我數字就好"},{"start":14984.55,"end":14989.581,"text":"所以20件敗訴的部分總數是68所以是29.4所以總共百分比是多少"},{"start":14996.377,"end":15014.399,"text":"二十九點四嘛對不對二十九點四對不對這已經高過最高行政法院院長吳東都他認為之前他認為在台灣一審行政訴訟原告的平均勝訴率是九點四趴NCC顯然明顯就是"},{"start":15015.782,"end":15032.705,"text":"比這樣子的一個數字更不及格我要講的說NCC在這過程當中的時候有很多的案子顯然是跟法院的看法也不一致的跟民眾的看法也不一致包括中天案法院也直接打臉"},{"start":15034.187,"end":15056.378,"text":"所以我們認為現在NCC這麼多敗訴的部分要讓民眾來買你們打官司的錢我覺得其實很不應該剩下這幾個月我希望陳主委好好地做做一點有道德良心的事情不要繼續打壓台灣的言論自由、民主政治好好做能夠人死能夠留名其實"},{"start":15058.117,"end":15058.857,"text":"現在請楊瓊英委員發言楊瓊英、楊瓊英不在"},{"start":15087.79,"end":15090.011,"text":"請張祺凱委員發言謝謝謝謝主席請阿陳主委主委請"},{"start":15124.654,"end":15144.882,"text":"主委你好今天好多委員都在提說你以前是一個很有名開明派的學者可是你看現在準備要回學校了那麼多人在罵你還等70天可以好好把握一下我先提一個最重要的案子好不好對你來講可能是心裡現在最大的痛吧"},{"start":15146.072,"end":15166.789,"text":"就是靜電室的這個申涉案一直大家都在傳說很多的傳聞是檢舉立例喔說政治黑手進去嘛那你這個痛是連北檢都已經把你列為他治案的這個賭職罪的被告對不對我先問你一下他治案很容易你要檢舉檢個報告就對所以我要問你嘛那個北檢約談你了沒有"},{"start":15168.541,"end":15196.178,"text":"約談是沒有但是有調查證物有調查相關證據調查中調查到什麼沒有約談有問過你調的資料嗎還是怎麼樣人的部分沒有約談但是物的部分有調查證據就是說相關的證據我們的一些流程什麼相關的這些證物所以已經調查中嘛對調查中那到底你這邊回應他的解釋清楚了嗎我們就是程序就是這樣子我們相關的資料就這樣處理我們把這些相關我們審查過程的資料就給那個檢察官啦"},{"start":15197.379,"end":15211.551,"text":"其實為什麼要告你賭職罪?就是說政治黑手所生進來結果你一直在煩惱你也承認說你跟洪耀虎碰了面啊然後煽動一間大家也有意見現在就說指證利率很多事情你等一下可以講沒有問題我是說證據那麼多所以人家去檢舉北檢才會把你列為被告是不是這樣我的意思就是說指證利率的同時你剛剛說你也回應了一些資料嘛對不對"},{"start":15224.542,"end":15249.825,"text":"你要說服我還有說服全國民眾說你是沒有問題的啊是不是這樣對啊 為什麼到目前為止還是他治案嗎如果真的有問題來講早是改成政治案的所以我們的資料完全是依法去處理相關的問題並沒有任何剛才委員所講的這些所謂的弊端存在裡面是不是弊端現在還在查就對了已經有調了尊重檢調單位的調查要再調資料就對了那第一個問題可能也是你心裡的痛吧"},{"start":15250.586,"end":15273.339,"text":"我們首先請前院長直接講說你最聽話NCC的主委怎麼可以聽話這對NCC的獨立性、中立性是很大傷害你都沒有抗議嗎?你都沒有抗議?那個新聞報告報導裡面所寫的我怎麼跟院長抗議呢?因為那是新聞報告所寫的我可以拿新聞報告跟院長抗議說是這樣講法我沒有辦法跟院長這樣說法主委你對全國的民眾講這個事情是假的不是真的是院長講的假的"},{"start":15274.159,"end":15287.208,"text":"蘇院長來講從來沒有跟我講過任何相關像媒體報導的話語也沒有想這種這個我們說最聽話也要或是命令我做什麼事情也要沒有我是依照我這個相關的法定程序跟事業去做這個事情所以你覺得你有聽蘇院長的威武"},{"start":15289.269,"end":15290.15,"text":"有一個案子就是三立入股這個宗家案對不對"},{"start":15319.91,"end":15332.636,"text":"這個案子看起來也是很明確,你自己都承認嘛對不對可是你的處理,我先問問你,你的處理方式你後來只有罰了這個系統業者一千四百四十萬嘛現在你不覺得太輕了嗎?會太輕嗎?因為我認為我們才屬這個系統業者,因為什麼?"},{"start":15338.038,"end":15363.171,"text":"我們現在的有限電視法裡面對這些所謂的其他的大股東去投資這個部分來講：法律上並沒有相關的處罰規定是不是我們現在有些我們現在為什麼廣電商會要修改就是以往我們都認為這個頻道沒有用到公家資源沒有用到說稀有稀有稀有設置有嘛現在兩個問題第一就是你不覺得12家系統業者發的太輕這是一個問題嘛那第二東西我同意你剛才說的"},{"start":15363.931,"end":15379.87,"text":"你現在罰3例罰不到跟法有問題可是人民會講啊沒合理啊一個是合不合理的問題第二個法你現在還有70天嘛本席會很明確的提出來廣電三法的修法包括你剛剛講的因為現在法例不完整嘛可是馬上提包括"},{"start":15380.902,"end":15382.062,"text":"我們修法是有的"},{"start":15410.807,"end":15433.964,"text":"委員報告了,這個大方向基本上我個人都是支持,但是問題是現在人民市委我們要提委的,我現在剩國會,你叫我一國會提出這麼重大的事情你當然是你入台之前要做這件事情,這對你的名聲也好啊,而且是補破網你今天可以讓你核心啊,跟全台灣的民眾講你去做了補破網的事情啊委員這個不合理沒有法審理嘛,那如果是法的問題趕快去把它補起來啊"},{"start":15434.684,"end":15463.386,"text":"這個我當然盡快去處理,因為本來我們在討論就討論很久了,這個東西應該在...我知道,所以你趕快下去,你能不能給我一個答案?這位小卦,我報告你我剛才說要再公聽各界的意見,你說我...你回台北大學之前這個法媒體...我們NCC本來就是一個延續性的事情啊,我們是希望把這個東西訂好,像委員這個方向我們也是贊成,但是要把它訂好,比如說你到底是哪些人要公開,公開什麼範圍,這個大家都可以討論的問題就剛剛那三個原則啊,很簡單啊"},{"start":15464.527,"end":15486.125,"text":"如果說公開透明是5%以上有義務要申報啊 公開透明啊 接受政府補助的 這三個對你來講你幾期啊 這麼簡單的東西 這個有很困難嗎 我的版本都已經擬好了啊 我們最近就會提啦 欸抱歉 所有人 你們給我個引誦 你下台之前 你離開啦 回台北大學之前 廣電三法這個修法一定提出來 可以嗎"},{"start":15489.528,"end":15511.803,"text":"法案我們會提出來跟各界討論,這樣可以嗎?我們把法案提出來,我會送到台灣你現在就是把案子很清清楚楚的提到行政院去啊我們立法結果我提案要經過行政院,行政院再提到報科對啦,我說你最少啦,你離開回台北大集市這70天送到至少你的案子出門到行政院可以嗎?"},{"start":15513.931,"end":15521.396,"text":"我希望可以朝這個方向去做我希望可以朝這個方向去處理但是我不敢承諾過我離開以前這個東西有沒有辦法送到立法院行政院去了我希望朝這個方向去做"},{"start":15540.885,"end":15569.088,"text":"朝這個方向那盡量在盡量在我可以我要離開前可以看這個草案能不能出去了這樣還是沒有沒有那個因為你這樣會不會讓全民全民全民失望沒有沒有不是失望我只是准教這一套你還在想你還在想還在想還在想問你說你你還要有時間你想要這個事情明明該做的不做呢報告委員市委在市委在新的委員如果要產生他8月1號就職我在趁他還沒8月1號就職把一個法案丟出去這個不是對啊這很好的法案啊對"},{"start":15570.289,"end":15589.194,"text":"這不是只有你認為好我認為好全民都認為好的阿而且最最重要的你認為現在沒辦法去罰三例你這個道理上也說不過去你認為是罰的問題那你把罰的補破網你要做阿怎麼不做呢有有有我們要做阿要做就趕快做阿你盡量朝這個方向去走嘛好不好阿好時間到了好謝謝章祺凱委員的發言下一位請吳春城委員發言"},{"start":15604.146,"end":15611.509,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請主委主委請委員好主委好那個那個你的檔案"},{"start":15629.895,"end":15659.064,"text":"好,沒關係,好,那個第一個我要來問一下這個主委一句話請問這個蔡政府八年執政下我們的媒體環境變好還是變壞我們的新聞只有在亞洲還是明年前貿?有嗎?有?有嗎?OK好,我自己本身我第一個工作在智利網報我知道我是一個媒體出身"},{"start":15660.595,"end":15687.956,"text":"我覺得非常的感嘆當時在國民黨威權的統治下我們媒體人覺得非常的光榮是嗎?被稱為無冕王對不對?人才輩出的確我們的媒體人有很多社會上備受尊重的人請問民進黨深知媒體的重要性"},{"start":15689.338,"end":15717.656,"text":"所以呢 靠著媒體上台上台以後 第一件事情是什麼掌控媒體消滅媒體這個我們的女王啊 這個一上台了以後圈養英權歌功頌德追殺政敵七百多天不開記者會連獎金果都做不到欸"},{"start":15719.42,"end":15729.533,"text":"為什麼這麼的藐視媒體為什麼這麼的大膽因為他有一隻鷹犬這鷹犬是誰你知道嗎"},{"start":15733.243,"end":15756.243,"text":"你不知道喔?那不然你知道今天為什麼你的各委員會當中為什麼大家這個你的最熱鬧呢?報告委員我不是陰犬第二個就是說NCC本來就是獨立機關那各個新聞頻道我們現在新聞頻道比你們以前多太多了那各種意見也都有所以為什麼我剛才所講的台灣的新聞只有在亞洲一十年前嘛OK好你看一下一個你說這一個"},{"start":15760.267,"end":15779.947,"text":"這個是英國牛津大學路透新聞研究所這很權威的全球的這個媒體他出了2023年數位新聞的產業報告對於開放自由媒體的環境的台灣受訪者對我們台灣的媒體的信任度只有28%"},{"start":15782.665,"end":15783.286,"text":"媒體環境有變好還是變壞?"},{"start":15803.866,"end":15824.189,"text":"所以是變幻你的意思就是變幻而且媒體整個環境有大的變化因為你們當時根本連網路都沒有現在很重要的是現在的人民的資訊來源不是只單純傳統的OK你看下一頁再來我不只是這樣子特別是在選舉期間感受"},{"start":15825.543,"end":15849.851,"text":"最深刻感受更加的深刻幾乎所有的媒體遇到柯文哲遇到我們黨主席幾乎而且是一面倒的甚至連廣告都不賣他媒體是社會公器這誰在管啊誰在管怎麼會管成這樣的一個環境呢這誰的責任"},{"start":15852.356,"end":15877.732,"text":"廣告這個本來就是商業行為商業行為所以媒體就是報那個媒體老闆的事情這樣子完全是私營企業你第一個還是要怎麼樣賣給誰就賣給誰你還是要遵守法律啊那法律怎麼會定成這樣子呢可以為所欲為認所欲為這樣子嗎委員你要具體的案例說哪裏來講如果說違反事實查證違反公平原則我們該處理就處理來並不是說下一頁"},{"start":15880.441,"end":15890.063,"text":"然後最近的新聞說這個蔡賴在溝通NCC的新委員那這件事情是不是事實?"},{"start":15891.615,"end":15916.22,"text":"這我不知道 這你不知道這一個媒體在傳這樣子的所以看到NCC的不獨立不公正控制媒體就可以控制政權在台灣我們的確是這樣在過去的蔡政府的八年下來然後八年來就是你來當NCC主委的這樣子媒體呢"},{"start":15917.52,"end":15941.484,"text":"有效率的控制擁有媒體就擁有一切所有事情由你來控制所以呢賴政府還繼續要有樣學樣嗎?台灣民眾黨要求還給媒體第四權的生存環境我做一個媒體人非常清楚做一個媒體人的尊嚴做一個媒體這個媒體產業當中嚴重的沉淪"},{"start":15945.485,"end":15962.134,"text":"這個NCC沒有責任嘛所以在後續的NCC委員的任命上民眾黨一定強力的嚴選報告委員我可以說明一下嗎基本上來講的話其實就我的觀察還有各界我們學術界觀察最擅長使用新媒體的反而是民眾黨"},{"start":15963.554,"end":15979.76,"text":"這個是我們目前所觀察的對象是這樣子而且這個新媒體本身來講沒有法律規定所以我們也沒有去管過新媒體我認為媒體它會變化使用的程度會不同科技創新所以我覺得台灣並沒有所謂媒體不公如果有不公我們就依法去處理就對了謝謝好 謝謝吳俊成委員下一位請陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":15999.205,"end":16022.427,"text":"謝謝主席有請陳主委主委我想先跟您請教您當NCC主委以來你面對高度有社會爭議的案件包括淨電視的執照審議案包括三立的這個入股中加案您覺得你自己是不是有秉公處理有善盡調查的責任呢當然啦秉公處理而且依法去調查"},{"start":16023.783,"end":16040.194,"text":"但是我從上一屆的立法院的公報上我看到的事實卻不是這樣在公報記錄上有多位立委針對NCC的處理的過程當中發生許多違法或是爭議的事情而且他們具體提出了很多的例子要求成立這個調閱小組當時"},{"start":16043.756,"end":16063.345,"text":"當時這個包括從禁電視取得新聞台的執照到禁電視取得執照之後發生的違法性還有NCC內部自己的行政作為的部分我們都看到主委您都一再的推脫啦認為只要NCC交出報告依法調查什麼事要是有什麼事交給NCC處理就可以了"},{"start":16064.085,"end":16077.36,"text":"而且我也看到在公報記錄上民進黨執政黨利用他們的人數優勢一再的在這個用五度封殺五度封殺那個在野提案我就不一一唸出"},{"start":16078.851,"end":16096.925,"text":"主委過去這幾年我個人認為您的工作是非常好當的因為面對爭議的事件總是有人幫您護航但是現在新的民意出現了今天稍早交通委員會已經成立調閱小組的提案我想請教主委在接下來的調閱辦法跟調閱資料範圍的討論上"},{"start":16100.268,"end":16117.224,"text":"您是不是願意承諾將所有跟靜電視執照審查的過程和發執照後的檢舉案以及NCC進行審查調查的相關所有資料您都願意如實的沒有隱瞞的毫無保留的交出來供這個調閱小組來審視嗎?"},{"start":16119.745,"end":16143.557,"text":"基本上來講的話我們上一屆會期我們就做了5次的專案報告相關的調查資料報告今天已經正式成立教育小組這個成立教育小組這個是大院的權利了那我們有哪些資料只要合法的前提要提供的我們就依法提供您承諾您會如實的無保留的交出這些資料沒有沒有有些東西來講如果我們想依法有些東西所以是有條件的好"},{"start":16144.878,"end":16159.908,"text":"有些如果在刑事調查當中來講的話這依憲法本來就沒有辦法在交易的範圍主委前年原本靜電視的三統一間他們辭任的事情跟原因我想你很清楚請問主委跟NCC對於當時三統一間所呈報的靜電視報告已經明擺點出靜電視很多作為違反NCC合法新聞台執照的付款要求"},{"start":16168.214,"end":16196.798,"text":"而且也和這個董事長這個蔡昌波隱瞞隱瞞三董一間甚至回給NCC的這個報告內容互相抵觸南圓北側那麼請問當時NCC做怎麼樣的調查會有行政作為嗎我們當然相關第一個是請進電視去提供相關的資料嘛第二個請這個當事人來講的話有些比如說做相關的協政調查主委這就是問題你就是請當事人來回覆然後當事人說沒有違法你就認定沒有違法是這樣嗎"},{"start":16197.518,"end":16212.41,"text":"沒有請當事人回覆,要請誰回覆?那你要不做調查權呢?你自我限縮嗎?所以說我們對人調查、對事調查都有啊,都有進行相關的調查。難怪今天是前董事長陳建平多次發出聲明,控訴你和NCG都在擺亂放水包庇。"},{"start":16213.01,"end":16239.124,"text":"不是啊,我們程序上就只能這樣處理嘛,不能說不如他願這是去年靜電視前董事長陳建平發出的公開聲明那我就擷取其中的一段陳建平說靜電視大股東陳泰銘跟陳俊仁支持的三董一間他們四個人發現靜電視早就違反了NCC合法執照的付款要求不管是培委和這個精進傳媒公司跟和靜電視公司之間的關係人交易"},{"start":16240.345,"end":16252.051,"text":"而且他們一再的要求都沒辦法釐清那競電室跟競傳媒公司之間也沒有依照NCC的要求進行業務切割人資系統財務系統都還是共用設備共用採購還是經營傳媒公司在幫競電室處理"},{"start":16257.236,"end":16278.443,"text":"那這些身為禁電室內部的三統一間都行文正式向NCC檢舉結果你主委你還是護航阿你還是擺案阿沒有護航阿我們這個事情就照他們檢舉我們去調查阿調查他也我們目前調查的結果他也符合我們相關的這些付款主委我知道這是你一貫的回答那我們看下一張下一張"},{"start":16279.983,"end":16302.254,"text":"這幾個人就是淨電視當時在核發執照的時候這個八大股東那依照付款規定NG的付款規定他們持有的股份是六年內禁止轉移請教主委這個規定現在還在嗎還在啊這本來就我們付款裡面啊那但是主委這八個股東裡面有人一開始就是人頭一有人取得執照就把股份賣出去請問主委你是否知悉"},{"start":16302.654,"end":16304.815,"text":"NCC有沒有掌握跟調查?你的調查還是一樣的,本人簽的嗎?還是他們是有覬覦自己簽下去嗎?你就是說要犯規的人,做不該做的事的人,他們說他們沒有做錯,你都認為沒有做錯嗎?"},{"start":16325.251,"end":16345.31,"text":"最後就是金流的事主委您說過NCC沒有辦法查金流後來你被金管會打臉了然後你又說減掉才可以這樣查金流但是金管會主委後來黃天牧先生在上一屆的立法院他有提到只要NCC在自己內部規定講清楚是可以查金流的所以基本上就是NCC限縮自己的職權沒有我沒有請金管會協助"},{"start":16347.432,"end":16373.169,"text":"那就是主委是不是這樣的新的名義已經出現了吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼吼"},{"start":16375.131,"end":16376.893,"text":"好,謝謝陳昭芝委員稍微請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":16407.716,"end":16422.867,"text":"謝謝主席是不是麻煩有請主委主委好今天ICC所提出來的業務概況報告裡面我批評"},{"start":16424.181,"end":16438.68,"text":"有七成以上都照抄您說這個業務是延續性的嘛然後有提出了一些回覆啊但我要告訴主委的是啊業務有延續性的不是只有NCC啊主委你有沒有看到有其他哪一個部會啊"},{"start":16439.901,"end":16457.573,"text":"抄襲用字遣詞一模一樣比例跟你們一樣這不是要抄襲這是我們自己的業務報告不是抄襲的問題對嘛財政部的報告你去看一下財政部的報告人家也是去年最後一個會期提的跟你們不要說抄襲啦複製貼上沒有錯吧"},{"start":16460.836,"end":16483.358,"text":"跟你們複製貼上的比例是能比喔拿業務用延續性的來欺騙國人業務是只有你們是延續性的喔來 我們進一步啦看具體的內容國人最關心的打炸的問題所以我就要看啊說你們的延續是怎麼個延續法左手邊是你們今年提出來的"},{"start":16484.139,"end":16490.943,"text":"我講的喔檢察官痛批NCC第二類電器沒有管好成為詐騙集團的幫手"},{"start":16493.211,"end":16518.576,"text":"右手邊這邊有紅字的是你們NCC去年的報告左手邊是你們NCC今年的報告有不一樣的字的部分我負責任的都幫你們框出來了去年的報告還比較豐富一點跟大家說檢察官痛批完了第二類電信NCC不知道在管什麼的時候你們財閥了什麼財閥了亞太電信嘛"},{"start":16521.457,"end":16542.651,"text":"台灣之星嘛海峽電信嘛我都負責任的把NCC有做的事啊幫你給列出來了那我就困惑啦從去年到今年針對第二類電信被詐騙集團裁罰被詐騙集團使用為犯罪工具害很多人受害的這個延續性的東西在哪裡"},{"start":16544.711,"end":16547.954,"text":"從去年提出報告到今年的這個時候有沒有裁罰?有沒有裁罰?"},{"start":16565.683,"end":16583.291,"text":"有沒有裁罰目前沒有裁罰案目前沒有裁罰案第二類電信不是繼續被插片集團使用嗎為什麼沒有裁罰案總是要調查程序嘛委員自己是訴訟法的專家知道我們所有的裁罰都還是要調查啊好你現在在調查哪幾個案件說來聽聽啊"},{"start":16584.972,"end":16596.189,"text":"目前來講的話比如說最近模范的案子在調查還有其他我們定期在檢查沒有關係我只跟你講具體的不要跟我講抽象的模糊的沒有沒有沒有你調查什麼案件講來聽聽啊"},{"start":16599.91,"end":16619.825,"text":"比如說魔方的案件我們在調查當中還有別的嗎當然還有黑莓卡的案子我們在調查當中還有別的嗎這個已經很多了黑莓卡案子就好多家啦我具體的跟你講啦檢察官稱對第二類電信去年年底已經徵結的喔如果沒有徵結牽涉到偵查不公開我們都尊重"},{"start":16620.578,"end":16643.643,"text":"已經癥結的第二類電信的業者使用第二類電信給詐騙集團都已經被檢察官起訴囉檢察官都幫你調查完了結果在你們的業務報告裡面當個資源媒體啊這什麼延續性的報告啊就是因為檢察官等他偵查結束以後我們再相關去做行政的裁處啊"},{"start":16644.925,"end":16671.757,"text":"對嘛 所以我才問你行政裁處在哪裡啊所以還在進行當初還沒有裁處怎麼會有這個報告出現去年年底 去年年底 去年年底針對第二類電信繼續被詐騙集團使用的檢察官都已經貞節囉我講的是去年年底喔不是上個月底喔不是上個月底喔當初海峽電信的事情被檢察官罵完了以後趕快罰啊"},{"start":16672.777,"end":16686.678,"text":"被罵翻了啊結果呢你所謂延續性的報告這邊是空白的我敢這樣子講我敢這樣講這些資訊檢察官申請完了以後就沒有偵查不公開了"},{"start":16687.694,"end":16705.873,"text":"有哪些第二類電信的業者把東西交給詐騙集團我們不需要讓社會大眾知道嗎不需要NCC不需要去進行裁罰嗎當然需要但是你要裁罰第一個你還是要去調查程序我後就繼續等著"},{"start":16707.114,"end":16734.791,"text":"我就繼續等著我在看等了幾個月以後你們NCC才會有反應我站在這邊講我負責我說話向來有憑有據的我說檢察官已經偵查終結了那些第二類電信業者都已經被起訴了結果NCC還是繼續放著那不是二類電信業者有些東西我們還會去查沒有關係啦等到檢察官接下來進一步我下次下次我們繼續談今天"},{"start":16736.992,"end":16751.886,"text":"陳立進電視的調閱小組主委有表達你的看法你覺得遺憾等等的這個我都尊重立法院行使立法委員的職權但這個案子從事前執照的核發"},{"start":16753.007,"end":16775.257,"text":"事中付款到底有沒有履行事後他違反了當初在申設計畫裡面的承諾NCC是怎麼處罰的這三個階段社會大眾通通都在看那我們都是法律人我不跟你講抽象的事情我完全都跟你談具體的事情前面就有關於"},{"start":16778.547,"end":16802.913,"text":"政治黑手深入的事情先放著因為人家大剌剌的說這是總統的旨意這不是行政院長的旨意然後結果一開始說這個錄音檔是偽照變照去鑑定完是真的以後說我吹牛啊我在內部吹牛啊"},{"start":16804.249,"end":16829.104,"text":"假借蔡英文的旨意吹牛啊結果假借蔡英文旨意吹牛的人啊現在還在當媒體負責人啊真是了不起沒關係我們講具體的好 來看一下廢紙權條款第3條該公司取得執照後經濟傳媒股份有限公司董監事及經理人不得參與該公司任何營運這個是附廢紙權的條款嘛 對吧"},{"start":16831.84,"end":16857.857,"text":"培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事培偉父親是吧是啊他有沒有參與進電視任何的音樂他的財報裡面講進電視因為十月間變跟董事來後跟進傳媒也沒關係的不是啦我現在在講的不是進電視你看你的廢紙權條款經濟傳媒股份有限公司董事培偉是不是是吧"},{"start":16860.54,"end":16878.589,"text":"經濟傳媒不知道我們管的是禁電視的對嘛請你看你們NCC自己做的付款嘛這中文有這麼難理解嗎經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與禁電視的任何營運這個中文沒這麼難懂嘛第一個問題培偉是不是經濟傳媒的董事"},{"start":16879.673,"end":16880.554,"text":"培韋是不是經濟傳媒的董事?"},{"start":16901.874,"end":16928.77,"text":"我們管的是淨電視我付款是下給淨電視不是下給經濟傳媒阿對嘛你下給淨電視阿你的付款前提要件不用先建立嗎但是問題是說我們的醫務人是那個阿醫務人是那個淨電視嘛醫務人當然是淨電視嘛所以這個付款寫經濟傳媒股份有限公司的董事不可以參與淨電視的營運嘛是啊所以我們問的第一個前提問題經濟傳媒股份有限公司前提嘛喔凱瑞是不是董事"},{"start":16932.145,"end":16959.078,"text":"培韋是進進傳媒的培韋我從頭到尾就在問這個問題有這麼難理解嗎他有沒有參與營運這件事情剛剛有委員講過了嘛他是股東三董一間三董一間說培韋就有介入進電視的營運啊你說你們都有調查來請教一下怎麼調查的三董一間有叫來問嗎當然有啊所以三董一間說他們講的是假的嗎"},{"start":16960.479,"end":16985.265,"text":"他們的說法我們一定是這樣各方去調查嘛有沒有是看那個事實去公司的營運上有沒有所以你調查出來的結果是沒有嗎對啊好陳泰銘的律師自己講喔公司的大小張還在培威手上公司的銀行端的所有資料只有進桌刊的財務看得到公司的人事系統也只有進桌刊的管理部門看得到"},{"start":16986.341,"end":17014.009,"text":"連公司內部的人資都看不到公司HR Human Resource的資料這個你們有沒有掌握這個部分來講的話這個資料來講應該有你們有掌握所以他還是沒有參與營運你們是怎麼把這些資料全部視而不見閉上眼睛這是律師講的我們當然最後他所陳述還是有去調查所以調查來講我現在要請教你陳泰民的律師講的對不對"},{"start":17016.321,"end":17033.27,"text":"你可以講說陳泰銘的律師啊胡說八大根本沒有這回事這個是調查結果嘛至少我們調查結果來講並沒有他所講的這種狀況嘛所以我就說嘛陳泰銘律師講的對不對你只要針對問題我回答就好了你只要告訴我陳泰銘律師講的這個狀況經過本委委員會非常認真的調查發現沒有他亂講"},{"start":17039.873,"end":17048.747,"text":"是這樣嗎委員已經講了我們調查結果就是這樣啊對嘛所以陳泰銘律師講的這個內容是不正確的對不對"},{"start":17050.854,"end":17073.541,"text":"我們查的結果目前來講沒有辦法去證明說陳那個所謂的律師講的是正確是你的查的結果沒有辦法證明對還是你們就是放水亂查嗎沒有放水亂查好沒有關係我們繼續慢慢往下看看NCC啊是不是在放水亂查來什麼叫放水亂查來我們接下來再講你們有沒有約詢過陳派米"},{"start":17076.778,"end":17096.557,"text":"陳泰銘我們有請他陳述過意見什麼時候請他到會約詢的我們有做行政調查對 什麼時候請陳泰銘到會來約詢的他沒有到會但是他有把他表達意見所以他沒有到會對啊啊你們調查這麼潦草喔這麼關鍵的人所以各位我們報告他有曾經到內容事務處什麼時候時間講具體一點什麼時候到內容事務處講"},{"start":17104.445,"end":17128.644,"text":"他111年有到我們內容處做行政調查對 什麼時候嘛這資料我們等下日期查一下嘛啊沒關係 現在馬上查我等著啊有行政調查報告我不知道啦陳泰銘去NCC跟你們講了什麼但我知道啊陳泰銘在外面怎麼講主要我唸給你聽喔啊我們的資料都給他啊啊他敢不"},{"start":17132.769,"end":17147.253,"text":"結果主管機關可以管的都不管叫我們自己去把董事長罷免掉你知道我的意思嗎?要做官而已啦!不然要做事情啦!NCC是在審核什麼?審核一個頭殼的啦!這麼簡單的事不去做!太難啦!"},{"start":17152.185,"end":17167.594,"text":"我敢說陳泰銘講過這些話我一定負責那陳泰銘立下竊結書這也是他立的也不是我們叫他那個對不對我們一樣一樣來嘛你們基本的調查連人都沒有傳來怎麼還沒有傳來當然有啊"},{"start":17169.115,"end":17189.243,"text":"對嘛!什麼時候傳來的嘛!人家講的,跟你們調查的結果,就不一樣嘛!大股東欸!公開控訴欸!陳耀祥欸!你只有想要做官,不想要做事情啦!你省下什麼?你省下投給一個空的啦!欸!我澄清一下,這不是我罵的!這個是禁電視啊!大股東,我為你罵的!"},{"start":17195.685,"end":17220.504,"text":"我先補充一下陳泰銘來陳泰銘董事長來我這邊是因為陳泰銘什麼時候來的他去111年不過不是我約談的是陳泰銘主動來問我們一些有關於付款執行的情形他可不可以付款有沒有變更的可能性他在詢問這件事情那奇怪了我剛問的是你們有沒有約詢他嘛我沒有約詢他但是陳泰銘可能沒有來他有沒有辦理這件事情你們有沒有約詢過他他有順便表達繼續再往下看嘛"},{"start":17225.701,"end":17252.878,"text":"本來就這樣啊 笑泡笑到這麼清楚週刊跟電視 人事劃分 根本全部不適格嘛你都沒去查 誰都沒去查 他控訴的就是NCC啦再往下看 你要聽殷黨 要殷黨我也有 時間的關係啦那個殷黨我怕直接放出來 震撼力太強了我們董事做了決議 董事長都不執行"},{"start":17254.653,"end":17254.833,"text":"陳泰銘的控訴"},{"start":17282.765,"end":17307.068,"text":"他們給你們的檢舉資料你們有沒有copy給賽昌坡沒有阿沒有嗎好沒有關係沒有關係因為社會社會要不然就不信任你們調查要不然你們調查出來的結果阿非常的sloppy阿非常的sloppy那沒有關係我們今天成立了調閱小組以後這些事情慢慢再來講你可以繼續否認是你們的"},{"start":17308.103,"end":17334.245,"text":"你也可以繼續說我們NCC的調查公正、嚴明、絕對正確、經得起社會考驗是不是真的這個樣子我們接下來就繼續往這個方位喝點水休息一下好不好方位喝點水我怕你累了好啦謝謝黃國昌委員你跟我講了15分鐘還不止你欠我5分鐘"},{"start":17342.784,"end":17365.195,"text":"黃珊珊委員發言,黃珊珊不在林思敏委員發言,林思敏不在王美惠委員發言,王美惠不在張嘉峻委員發言,張嘉峻不在蘇清泉委員發言,蘇清泉不在徐欣穎委員發言,徐欣穎不在林沛翔委員發言,林沛翔不在高金樹梅委員發言,高金樹梅不在"},{"start":17367.526,"end":17388.934,"text":"邁鈺貞委員發言,邁鈺貞、邁鈺貞不在。邱志偉委員發言,邱志偉、邱志偉不在。羅明財委員發言,羅明財、羅明財不在。蔡易瑜委員發言,蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜不在。陳冠廷委員發言,陳冠廷、陳冠廷不在。陳雪生委員發言,陳雪生、陳雪生。我拔到腰,不發言了。"},{"start":17393.345,"end":17401.456,"text":"登記執行委員均已經發言完畢,做一下決定說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":17404.865,"end":17422.995,"text":"有關今日通常會業務報告及專題報告,主席經過貞德在場委員意見後,決定請通常會再行補充資料,並另折其補行報告。通常會書面報告列入記錄並刊登公報。"},{"start":17425.029,"end":17450.362,"text":"第二項,委員蔓玉珍、游浩、王洪威、何欣辰、廖先祥、陳素月委員所提的書面諮詢列入記錄並刊登公報。三、委員於諮詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請通傳會盡速以書面答覆。本日議程處理完畢。散會。好,各位辛苦了。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}