{"error":false,"id":["157115"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157115,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157115","日期":"2024-11-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會","內政委員會","經濟委員會","教育及文化委員會","交通委員會","社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-20T10:13:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-20T10:20:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eabfb0b2bc8b4a2783d1ff0707298ac19832ae224b9eab90f61e5caf0930cab58e95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"10:13:58 - 10:20:26","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案(114年度)」（僅詢答）。\n【預算提案截止時間：11月27日（三）中午12時】\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.30096875,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.85784375,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.25846875,"end":4.047218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.079093750000002,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.26846875,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.407218750000002,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.47471875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.347843750000003,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.719093750000003,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.727218750000002,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.28409375,"end":27.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":29.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.680343750000002,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.570343750000003,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.860968750000005,"end":36.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.32471875,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.775968750000004,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.408468750000004,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.73221875,"end":49.744718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.73159375,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.88971875,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.59409375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.29409375,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.75784375,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.75284375000001,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.34784375000001,"end":110.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.00534375000001,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.95034375,"end":111.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.38909375,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.89471875000001,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.36659375,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.96534375,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.48846875000001,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.52221875000001,"end":124.06221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.16284375,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.37346875,"end":145.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.59221875,"end":134.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.60909375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.96596875,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.00346875,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.96471875,"end":167.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.12284375000002,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.32534375,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":170.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.85221875000002,"end":175.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.56471875,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.89346875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.31909375,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.08221875,"end":186.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.93846875,"end":190.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.93784375,"end":197.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.50221875000003,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.78034375000001,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.45534375000003,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.03284375,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.12971875000002,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.95659375000002,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.19284375,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":228.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.12596875000003,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.51721875,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.12846875000002,"end":242.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":244.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.76471875000001,"end":265.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.64346875,"end":267.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.29721875,"end":269.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.23784375,"end":269.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.08159375,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.09846875,"end":271.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.98409375,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.19471875,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.60721875,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.91909375,"end":284.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.96534375000005,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.43346875000003,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.18409375000005,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.20096875,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.30596875000003,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.82346875,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.77971875000003,"end":314.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.15471875000003,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.39346875,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.13159375000004,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.72596875000005,"end":333.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.63284375,"end":335.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.37096875000003,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.05409375000005,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.70659375,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.28409375,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.97159375,"end":356.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.39284375,"end":358.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.75971875000005,"end":362.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.60721875,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.66159375,"end":368.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.04096875000005,"end":368.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.49221875,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.21784375000004,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.48346875000004,"end":374.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.79096875000005,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.80784375,"end":375.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.32221875000005,"end":378.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.68909375000004,"end":378.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.17409375,"end":380.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.96721875000003,"end":387.54846875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.539,"end":24.038,"text":"陳署長吳副署跟副稅署還有宋署長、署記長這個703億第5期的這個預算是因為前面兩次的特別條例總共匡列8400億然後第一期、第二期、第三期、第四期用了7000多億就是差這703億所以你這第5期就是這703億是不是這樣說是是吼那"},{"start":29.741,"end":47.192,"text":"今年的稅收的預算的實收數遠遠大於這個預算數現在估計起來前幾天我在這個地方請教莊部長他說應該至少會多3000多億那如果這樣子的話這個703億有需要舉借嗎?"},{"start":52.859,"end":68.764,"text":"因為703億它是114年度啦那現在我們113年度的一個剩餘的這個部分那我們就會針對第一個要舉借113年需要借債的一個部分113年已經不需要借債對就不需要借113年還增加還了"},{"start":71.665,"end":87.01,"text":"對,所以113你要增加還,那還的部分就到累積剩餘裡面去,累積剩餘然後再做一下。對啊,所以我說可不可以移用這個今年度的稅計剩餘,因為今年看出來就是明顯會有大量的稅計剩餘,把它拿來這個730這樣就不需要舉債啊。"},{"start":89.791,"end":108.019,"text":"事實上今年在編114年度的時候他也有移用以前年度的稅基剩餘也有移用500億然後因為今年整個稅基剩餘下來剩下150幾億那如果再有累積剩餘再移下去就會可以做所以我才剛復稅署長才有講今年至少會多3000多億那遠大於這個遠大於預算說3000多億當然是"},{"start":116.022,"end":145.202,"text":"除了增加還款之外就是不用舉借之後還會有稅計剩餘啊這樣剩下的就已經不多了會不多嗎對對對你告訴我舉債因為這一次舉債的部分跟委員報告那111、113的部分就是剩下152億那今年度113的稅計剩餘是112的嘛112對對那今年的稅計剩餘要等明年的7月審計部審定之後才能拿來移用啊所以這個部分是這樣子的跟委員報告"},{"start":146.002,"end":167.21,"text":"那不能先用短期債款來支應嗎?因為你既然7月審計不審定之後就會有大量的稅劑剩餘出現啊。所以跟委員報告,像我們今年提台電最佳預算的時候,就是因為5月送,那7月的時候才要審定,所以剛開始也是先用借款,然後這個部分等到"},{"start":168.696,"end":190.152,"text":"審定以後再把它轉作為那個證語剛剛各部會通通都講說這主要都是坐在地方嘛前面的總共加第5期的8400億通通幾乎都是坐在地方啦那現在財劃法如果照國民黨委員會的版本他又要給你挖6000多億那你這個財源的分配的合理性"},{"start":191.013,"end":204.9,"text":"到底跟這個前瞻基礎建設也是要補助給地方然後你現在又統籌分辨書館又挖那麼多地方去這樣兩個東西是不是地方已經幾乎把你的錢抽乾了結果你還要編那麼多預算去補助地方"},{"start":205.97,"end":206.691,"text":"是否合理?"},{"start":236.571,"end":236.912,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":245.839,"end":269.342,"text":"是我也再跟委員說明一下因為我們總共這一次的總預算是3兆1嘛那3兆1扣掉那個一法律一物一兆包我們只剩下一兆如果減掉6612億以後我們只剩下6千整個所有其他減掉一法律一物之外的錢通通要減半才有辦法去支應這個那另外一方面就是要取債啊是"},{"start":270.383,"end":288.373,"text":"不然就是國家舉債啊!沒有啊!可以到40.6啊!現在才28啊!當年度那個短期的有限制總預算的百分之十...那你就不要借短期的,借長期的啊!因為如果要這樣子惡搞,他就是要把國家的財政弄破產嘛!"},{"start":289.226,"end":307.583,"text":"那既然要這樣報告的話,我們上有對策、上有政策、下有對策用這樣子惡劣的方式把財源都挖掉,中央政府沒有錢怎麼補助呢?是,長期負債雖然可以超過到40%,但是當年度就是不能超過15%,所以你超過15%就是違法"},{"start":311.963,"end":326.608,"text":"對啦,那所以你要想出其他的方法來處理不然的話這個東西如果硬這樣子折騰的話那國不成國啊你的整個財政破產你這個前瞻基礎建設8400多億都是在補助地方的占絕大多數結果他這樣還不夠"},{"start":328.509,"end":355.257,"text":"統籌分配措款我查過新北市政府的財政之前連續4年他財政都是剩餘耶都是plus耶不是minus耶結果現在還要我今天那天問議員他也答不出來我說突然之間照這個現在通過的這個如果是照財政委員會出去的這一個新北市政府突然之間拿到600多億要700億準備怎麼花沒有人知道突然之間天上掉下來將近700億錢要怎麼花"},{"start":357.438,"end":375.209,"text":"你沒有計畫沒有事務的分配沒有權責的分配光給他將近700億我這個災難我難以想像所以要堅持加油是 這個部分是中央的確有困難以上說明好 謝謝謝謝吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":380.457,"end":386.934,"text":"這個錢既然都是用在地方就是以後才會通過地方決定怎麼用怎麼用就不用透過中央來決定是哪個縣市"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1208,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時13分）主席，麻煩請陳主計長，還有財政部國庫署及賦稅署。"],["主席：請主計長、宋署長。"],["吳委員秉叡：703億第5期的預算是因為前面兩次特別條例總共匡列8,400億，第1期、第2期、第3期、第4期用了七千多億，就差了這703億，所以第5期預算就是這703億，是不是這樣說？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：今年的稅收實收數遠遠大於預算數，現在估計起來，前幾天我在這個地方請教莊部長的時候，他說應該至少會多三千多億，如果是這樣子的話，這703億有需要舉借嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為703億是114年度，現在113年度賸餘的部分，第一個，我們會針對113年需要借債的部分……"],["吳委員秉叡：113年已經不需要借債。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，就不需要借。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為113年還增加還債了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，所以113年要增加還債，還債的部分就到累計賸餘裡面，然後再作為下……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我說可不可以移用今年度的歲計賸餘，因為今年看起來就明顯會有大量的歲計賸餘，把它拿來用於這703億，這樣就不需要舉債了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：事實上，今年在編114年度的時候也有移用以前年度的歲計賸餘，也有移用500億，因為今年整個歲計賸餘還有一百五十幾億，如果再有累計賸餘就可以作為下一個年度編列的……"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛賦稅署署長才講今年至少會多三千多億，遠大於預算數的三千多億，當然除了增加還款之外，就是不用舉借，之後還會有歲計賸餘。"],["陳主計長淑姿：這樣賸下的就已經不多了。"],["吳委員秉叡：怎麼會不多呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，因為這一次舉債的部分……"],["許處長永議：跟委員報告，113年度的部分就賸下152億，今年度……"],["吳委員秉叡：113年度的歲計賸餘是112年度的。"],["許處長永議：對，今年的歲計賸餘要等明年7月審計部審定之後才能拿來移用，所以這個部分是這樣子的，跟委員報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：那不能先用短期貸款來支應嗎？因為既然7月審計部審定之後就會有大量的歲計賸餘出現。"],["陳主計長淑姿：跟委員報告，像我們今年提台電追加預算的時候，就是因為5月送，7月的時候才要審定，所以剛開始也是先用借款，然後這個部分等到審定以後再把它轉作為賸餘。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛各部會統統都講這個主要都是做在地方，前面的加上第5期總共8,400億，幾乎統統都是做在地方，現在的財劃法如果按照國民黨在委員會的版本，它又要跟你挖六千多億，這關係到財源分配的合理性，前瞻基礎建設也是要補助給地方，現在統籌分配又要挖那麼多錢到地方去，地方已經幾乎把你的錢抽乾了，結果你還要編那麼多預算去補助地方，這樣合理嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我要跟委員報告，重點就是前瞻計畫裡面有很大部分，譬如軌道建設還有四千多億還沒有編列，這個部分將來如果財劃法……"],["吳委員秉叡：那就不要編了啊！因為中央已經沒錢了，還要編什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：對，這個部分就無力負擔。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是問題是我身為新北市的立委，我就要抗議了，我們的捷運做到一半可以停嗎？統籌分配稅款被抽到地方去，可以指定這裡面多少部分要用在軌道建設嗎？他們會聽你的嗎？因為這是一個沒有限制的財務，他們高興怎麼花就怎麼花！"],["陳主計長淑姿：我也再跟委員說明一下，因為這一次的總預算是三兆一，三兆一扣掉依法律義務的部分一兆八之後只剩下一兆，如果再減掉6,612億，我們只剩下6,000億，所有其他減掉依法律義務之外的錢統統要減半，才有辦法去支應。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外一方面就是要舉債，不然就是國家舉債……"],["陳主計長淑姿：舉債也沒有額度，如果到時候舉債……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有，可以到40.6%，現在才28%啊！"],["陳主計長淑姿：當年度短期的部分有限制總預算的15%。"],["吳委員秉叡：你就不要借短期的，借長期的，因為如果要這樣子惡搞，那就是要把國家的財政弄破產，既然要這樣惡搞的話，講難聽一點，上有政策，我們下要有對策，用這樣子惡劣的方式把財源都挖掉，中央政府沒有錢怎麼補助呢？"],["陳主計長淑姿：長期負債雖然可以到40%，但是當年度就是不能超過15%，所以超過15%就是違法。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啦，所以你要想出想出其他的方法來處理，不然如果硬是要這樣子折騰的話，那國不成國啊！整個財政會破產，前瞻基礎建設八千四百多億都是在補助地方，而且占絕大多數，結果這樣還不夠，還要統籌分配稅款，我查過新北市政府的財政，之前連續四年他們的財政都是賸餘，都是plus，不是minus，結果現在還要！我那天問議員，他也答不出來，我問突然之間照財政委員會出去的版本通過了，新北市政府突然之間拿到六百多億快700億準備怎麼花，沒有人知道，突然之間天上掉下來將近700億，錢要怎麼花？沒有計畫、沒有事務的分配、沒有權責的分配，光給它將近700億，這個災難我難以想像，所以你們要堅持，加油！"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分中央的確有困難，以上說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員。這個錢既然都是用在地方，以後財劃法通過，地方決定怎麼用就怎麼用，不用透過中央來決定是哪個縣市發得比較多、哪個縣市發得比較少。","接著請李坤城委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：我在發言的時候……"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}