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366,"end":1788.83,"text":"沒有錯誤跟遺漏意思不確定接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員首先介紹黃國昌總召還有審發會委員在場官員包括有監察院李俊毅秘書長副秘書長劉文世監察業務處王貞華處長"},{"start":1796.038,"end":1802.763,"text":"監察調查處楊昌憲處長公職人員財產申報處陳美妍處長秘書處張麗雅處長綜合業務處汪玲玲處長人事室劉家慧主任政風室楊華興主任"},{"start":1822.063,"end":1849.719,"text":"內政及族群委員會．楊華璇主任秘書外交及國防委員會．陳瑞洲專門委員社會福利及衛生環境委員會．施貞仰主任秘書財政及經濟委員會．邱瑞芝主任秘書教育及文化委員會．李雲主任秘書"},{"start":1851.874,"end":1876.233,"text":"交通及採購委員會鄭旭浩主任秘書司法及域政委員會林惠美主任秘書國家人權委員會代理執行秘書邱秀蘭法規研究委員會黃敬興執行秘書"},{"start":1879.152,"end":1881.522,"text":"紀律委員會吳裕湘執行秘書"},{"start":1883.66,"end":1910.536,"text":"好那麼因為今日的會議室已經完成了會場前方兩處發言台的設置所以接下來會議進行時出席委員及列席機關代表請至發言台發言在主席右手邊的為列席機關代表的發言台及備詢台在我左手邊的則是委員的發言台及諮詢台那另外特別提醒各位"},{"start":1911.036,"end":1925.727,"text":"因為電腦螢幕及麥克風陷入的鋪設關係在發言台前方的地毯稍有隆起各位經過的時候要稍加注意現在就邀請監察院秘書長列席說明立法計畫．並備質詢"},{"start":1937.865,"end":1955.757,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生今天非常榮幸應邀到貴委員會來報告監察院的立法計畫那監察院依憲法跟憲法增修條文的規定我們的職責是彈劾、糾舉、糾正、審計那我們也照這樣那行使的依據就是我們的監察法"},{"start":1956.417,"end":1983.542,"text":"另外我們國家人權委員會在20208月1號成立我們也積極的來推動組織法第二條所規定的相關職權但是職權行使上還有不足的地方我們希望有法規依據所以我們希望在監察法裡面設置一個專章來推動這個我們國家人權委員會所需要的職權行使的相關項目那第三監察院因為作為陽光事法的這個執行機關"},{"start":1985.862,"end":2009.025,"text":"法律的主管機關都不是監察院但是執行機關是監察院而在我們執行的過程當中會有一些至愛難情的部分我們除了跟這個相關的主管機關反映以外我們也希望有些部分可以由相關主管機關來修法那這個部分也經過主管機關還有行政院的討論那今天要跟各位委員報告的部分是兩個部分"},{"start":2010.586,"end":2029.788,"text":"第一個有關監察法的修法監察法的修法是在2019年我們完成了國家人權委員會組織法的修法那當時立法院就做了一個附帶決議希望有關國家人權職權的行使訂立監察法之中"},{"start":2030.569,"end":2037.713,"text":"那我們也依這樣的要求我們送來監察法專章這個來提供在上一屆送來立法院審議那司法委員會已經完成審議但是後來沒有黨團協商所以這一條藉其不連續那這個部分我們會在現在我們會在這個會期中我們希望重新檢討過去委員在這方面的建議然後我們重新將這個法案來盡快來送到貴院來審查"},{"start":2060.826,"end":2082.28,"text":"陽光事法執行機關執行上確實碰到一些困難所以有關陽光事法我們也有一些修法的建議那這個主管機關不是我們但是我們希望主管機關跟行政院能夠盡快的完成修法包括我們虛擬貨幣是不是一定要列為這個"},{"start":2084.182,"end":2093.449,"text":"財產申報的一個主體那因為過去我們跟法務部反應過那法務部已經在那個表格裡面要求虛擬貨幣也需要申報財產但是虛擬貨幣還有其他衍生相關的問題包括它的價值到底為何這個還需要討論那另外第二個部分是有關政治獻金法"},{"start":2103.957,"end":2120.41,"text":"就是現在有很多的社群網絡媒體包括所謂的YouTube的Donate那這個算不算政治獻金的部分那這個有很多衍生出來的討論包括如果候選人本身是所謂的YouTuber那這個部分要不要做政治獻金的申報"},{"start":2121.01,"end":2121.35,"text":"以上向各位委員報告,謝謝"},{"start":2144.79,"end":2171.978,"text":"好那麼機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容請各位參閱並列入公報記錄那現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位黃總召委員請發言"},{"start":2204.329,"end":2208.271,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請秘書長有請監察院李秘書長李秘書長早,待讀了一下監察院的"},{"start":2217.566,"end":2243.859,"text":"113年的立法計畫上一屆的國會啊監察法曾經提出來後來監察院自己把它撤回去了後來在第二度又再提出來那上一次被撤回去的法案裡面有要處理調查權法制化的問題後來再提的版本裡面這個條文已經沒有了我講的就是監察法第26條的規定那這一次你們在監察院的立法計畫當中兩個具體的問題第一個"},{"start":2247.06,"end":2265.706,"text":"監察法什麼時候會送來?我們希望在這會期之前可以做得到嗎?第二個,調查權的法制化會處理嗎?我們沒有這樣的計畫目前沒有這樣的計畫?李委員您之前在當委員的時候對調查權沒有法制化批評很多嗎?覺得現在沒有這個問題了嗎?"},{"start":2267.335,"end":2269.677,"text":"目前監察院出的調查報告沒有法源的依據對不對"},{"start":2289.468,"end":2312.254,"text":"我不太懂黃委員的意思目前監察委員做的最多的就是調查報告嗎?調查報告的法源依據在哪裡?監察院行使憲法95條96條的調查權所以調查報告當然是依照相關規定來的所以你直接是用憲法的嗎?您當初在當立法委員的時候強烈的批判這個調查報告沒有法源依據你還記得嗎?"},{"start":2313.305,"end":2334.617,"text":"我知道所以我跟委員說明說這一次我們修法就是程序上屆藉其不連續我們送來的是國家人權委員會的職權行使的部分國家人權委員會歸國家人權委員會現在我在請教你的是調查報告法源依據的問題嗎那調查報告目前調查報告的法源依據是什麼調查報告我們現在依據的就是監察法26條"},{"start":2335.866,"end":2364.435,"text":"直接依照憲法就對了其實監察法26條監察法26條上面有想調查報告嗎上面沒有提到監察報告但是我們依照調查我們做了調查就應該做調查報告沒關係啊秘書長你在當委員的時候立場跟你現在立場一不一樣喔社會大眾可以檢驗下一個具體的問題啊地方巡查勞師動眾啊效應極差監察院什麼時候要處理監察院尋回監察的辦法"},{"start":2366.304,"end":2390.111,"text":"監察院的巡查是因為依據監察院的巡迴辦法來規定我們每年要對地方做兩所以你認為地方巡查有沒有效應這個我們內部有在討論所以有沒有效應最重要的是我們我們的監委到地方巡查的時候可以接受民眾的陳情我提醒你看一下2018年12月19號那個時候你在當立法委員的時候質詢監察院我唸給你聽"},{"start":2393.615,"end":2420.095,"text":"有關地方巡查的業務只是要應付4個月一次的巡查搞得地方政府牢獅動眾到底在巡查什麼東西那這種東西根本就是不符合時代的產物現在交通這麼發達還要什麼地方巡查那是過去的觀念那個時候你建議監察院自己把這個地方巡查的辦法把它廢掉了你的立場有改變嗎"},{"start":2421.488,"end":2445.44,"text":"跟委員報告因為我這樣的建議監察院地方巡查已經由3次改為2次了由3次改為2次我們看一下地方巡查的辦法來112年111年110年巡查的次數32次32次22次地方政府一樣是要應付這些地方巡查預算一樣要編阿"},{"start":2447.672,"end":2476.168,"text":"對所以我跟黃委員報告就是依據相關的規定我們來執行那過去我講的認為地方巡查次數太多那現在改為不是喔那個時候你是地標巡查自己要廢掉喔那時候你還斥責監察院阿沒錯該自己廢的報告不廢還要立法院動手黃委員所以現在監察院要不要自己動手黃委員我跟你們報告現在這個部分我們院理正在討論當中什麼時候會有結論這個要看院理我只是幕僚長不是委員"},{"start":2477.833,"end":2499.361,"text":"所以您當到秘書長了我希望您能夠堅持過去的理想我的看法跟你一樣啊搞這種地方巡查要幹什麼直接把它廢了啦我在院會提過但是委員有不同的意見這個要留給委員討論好我們來看一下對於監察院過去這三年彈劾的績效秘書長覺得滿不滿意"},{"start":2502.08,"end":2517.925,"text":"我們向來不以績效來做監察院到底有沒有做到他的憲法賦予的職權憲法賦予的職權是彈劾究極審計重點是如何把違法實質的揪出來而不是案件的多少重點不是案件的多少2014年一樣是您"},{"start":2519.685,"end":2530.557,"text":"痛批我們的監察院一個委員平均一年彈劾不到一件來我們來看一下2023年的時候彈劾了幾件2023年彈劾了20件有一年平均有到一件嗎"},{"start":2539.537,"end":2557.139,"text":"沒有阿 跟你當初批評的時候一模一樣阿20件是需要經過很多的程序還要審查的所以各個委員其實是相當忙碌了那整個的調整你2014年的時候你的批評阿是一人一年彈劾不到一件阿這個監察院阿根本不認真阿"},{"start":2558.24,"end":2566.705,"text":"謝謝我跟黃委員報告第4屆第5屆第6屆他的平均數其實沒有差距太多2點多是每一個人平均調查的次數所以這個部分其實各屆以來都沒有太大的差別我現在講的啦我的標準一樣"},{"start":2585.606,"end":2585.666,"text":"監察院"},{"start":2613.564,"end":2637.522,"text":"有沒有發揮他的效能一年花納稅10萬塊值不值得當然當然當然是留給社會公平社會的印象對監察院的印象是怎麼樣不是我們兩個在這邊爭論的啦每一個公民心裡都有一把尺來下一個問題監察院作為公職人員財產申報法以及政治獻金法的執行機關嘛來請教無償提供動產跟不動產應不應該申報"},{"start":2646.45,"end":2667.647,"text":"動產 呃 財產申報法的第5條政治獻金法第二條啦政治獻金法無償提供的動產或不動產這是政治獻金法我們不是主管單位阿我剛才說過了財閥的機關是誰財閥機關是我們阿是你們嘛所以我的問題就是如果無償提供動產不動產沒有申報要不要財閥這個部分我請那個我們財申處的處長來跟您會談"},{"start":2675.008,"end":2700.457,"text":"報告委員還是要看他是不是以政治現金捐贈的目的下的一個無償好來看一下2020年蔡英文破這個是競選喔招牌弄得很大喔結果他的車子詐騙集團的首腦無償提供怎麼破也承認了嘛那個說選舉要跑行程啊無償提供給他第二個"},{"start":2701.907,"end":2727.288,"text":"這個房子一樣喔半毛的書信都沒有收喔無償提供喔在這一個蔡英文總統陳歐珀立委競選連任羅東後援會站在前面啊上面在看的那個招牌的人啊我跟你們介紹一下你們可能不知道那三個是誰啊那三個就是曾耀峰就是張竹芬還有他們的友人"},{"start":2728.856,"end":2734.731,"text":"無償提供了以後啊三個看到招牌掛在上面啊非常的開心啊在這邊看啊這要不要申報"},{"start":2738.422,"end":2740.083,"text":"為什麼暫停調查我再跟你溝通一下觀念"},{"start":2767.532,"end":2776.528,"text":"行事的責任歸行事的責任阿有沒有接受供養要不要負行事的責任跟政治獻金法沒有誠實申報有什麼關係阿"},{"start":2779.468,"end":2805.356,"text":"委員我跟您報告政治獻金法有沒有如實申報這個本來就要依照規定來處理那您提到的現在有依照規定來處理嗎我現在跟您講我現在跟您報告就IMB案我們現在立法我們的監察院也正在立案調查當中那這個部分因為涉及涉及剛剛我們處長有講涉及刑事偵查所以這個部分有關財產的申報的部分我們現在是暫停"},{"start":2808.252,"end":2811.859,"text":"行事偵查有沒有犯意聯絡有沒有行為分擔有沒有參與詐騙那個是行事責任的問題"},{"start":2816.121,"end":2840.931,"text":"政治獻金法推散的問題是什麼你該申報沒有申報就要開罰啦有這麼複雜嗎黃委員我跟您報告的就是如果刑事偵查沒有出來我們無從判斷他是不是用政治獻金來捐贈所以這個部分我們必須我先提一下齁陳歐珀自己都承認啦再來抽選舉的時候無償提供給他跑行程請問你還要怎麼認定啊"},{"start":2842.451,"end":2855.138,"text":"請問你還要怎麼認定啊認定是不是政治獻金這個部分要等刑事偵查完以後我們才有辦法確認那這個部分我們不會以陳歐珀怎麼說來作為唯一的依據他就是當事人啊他就是當事人啊"},{"start":2858.78,"end":2874.229,"text":"什麼時候刑事偵查成為監察院不履行職責放水的擋箭牌這個不是放水 這個我們正在委員正在針對這個案我們正在調查這個事情發生多久啦 到現在還繼續停著包屁嘛 放水嘛 不敢罰嘛沒有 我們是因為刑事偵查所以我們暫停審查"},{"start":2882.79,"end":2887.473,"text":"所以我這樣問好了啦他刑事偵查就一直放著一天不終結你們就繼續的遲延繼續放著對不對所以嘛我就問嘛只要刑事偵查5年不增結你們就5年不會動我說的對不對"},{"start":2911.146,"end":2934.404,"text":"我們會看偵查的內容跟報告你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告沒有沒有刑事偵檢你如何得知偵查的內容跟報告黃委員我跟您報告清楚這一件事情您提的是政治獻金是因為現在有刑事偵查的問題那這個是不是用政治獻金的方式項目進來政治獻金申報我們只管這一部分"},{"start":2934.804,"end":2937.105,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單嘛 你要等到偵查完嘛所以5年不偵查完 你們5年就不會動 對不對"},{"start":2963.601,"end":2991.11,"text":"如果在這個部分這個檢察官有明確的表示的話我們就會依照這樣不影響到我們政治先進檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示說監察院不能動檢察官什麼時候有明確的表示剛剛我們處長已經說明很清楚了黃委員其實他的行為也有發生在之前所以這邊也有刑事責任的部分請我們監察院會後可以將你們更明確的答案我們可以提交給黃委員參考好不好黃委員OK好好謝謝"},{"start":2993.011,"end":3013.648,"text":"下一位我們有請省委員發會質詢主席有請李秘書長有請李秘書長省委員早李秘書長早"},{"start":3020.069,"end":3021.031,"text":"監察院秘書長"},{"start":3035.222,"end":3058.692,"text":"那所謂秘書長大概基本上是什麼樣的一個角色秘書長的概念就是一個幕僚長就是我們如何把行政工作相關的資料準備還有其他的部分做好讓委員跟院長副院長能夠順利的執行職權所以你做一個幕僚長你可以指揮說哪個監委你辦了幾個案子沒有監察委員獨立行使職權這個連院長都沒有辦法指派"},{"start":3063.914,"end":3093.107,"text":"那你可以你現在你代表監察院的秘書長身份來這裡你可以在這裡說現在委員平均一年辦幾個案子太多了或太少了這個我沒有這樣的權利因為監察委員本來就是依照憲法的規定獨立行使職權所以你今天來這裡你也不是立法委員雖然你今天來立法院你現在不是立法委員我當然不是所以你也不能在這裡表示你個人對於監察委員的哪一個現在辦的案子怎麼樣都不能"},{"start":3093.447,"end":3119.764,"text":"所以即使過去你擔任立法委員的時候你對監察院職務的行使有多少的意見你今天以幕僚長的身份來這裡你可以在這裡表達意見嗎?不可以所以把你過去的在立法院講的話來這裡來問你說你今天幕僚長你表示你的意見這是適當嗎?這個留給社會做公平所以我覺得這個質詢今天任何一個人不要說監察院"},{"start":3120.782,"end":3136.314,"text":"你今天韓國瑜你當總統候選人跟你今天當立法院院長你站在上面你講的話你說你今天你總統大選的時候你不是講嗎你不是講喝酒跳舞嗎你現在當立法院院長你可以在台上主席台上講喝酒跳舞嗎"},{"start":3137.699,"end":3163.77,"text":"所以這個角色每一個角色我想在這個質詢當中我們大家還是要就事論事今天來是這個監察院的秘書長不管他叫做李俊毅他叫做王八蛋他叫做什麼都一樣任何人來的他就代表立法院幕僚長他能夠回答的就是針對他幕僚長角色可以回答的問題是謝謝孫委員我也認為這樣我就是今天就是以監察院秘書長的身份來接下來"},{"start":3166.046,"end":3172.502,"text":"這個我想我請問剛剛有提到這個監察法有提到這個監察法的修正"},{"start":3174.783,"end":3200.52,"text":"這個秘書長你有提到說你們這個會期這個會期內會再送一次再送立法院我們希望這個會期內能把國家人權行使的專章在監察法裡面的專章送到立法院來這個是上一屆有送但是沒有通過上一屆上一屆其實在本委員會已經審查完畢了都審查完畢了對 已經審查完畢了審查完畢最後草野協商沒有草野協商所以就沒有相關問題所以他這個屆期不連續對 是這個狀況"},{"start":3204.242,"end":3218.717,"text":"那因此我們這次再送,如果我們在這個會期內再送,你們是會按照上一屆所送的草案再送一次,還是你們會參酌上一屆審查完均之後所調整的這個條文來送?"},{"start":3221.32,"end":3250.535,"text":"我跟省委員報告因為上一屆送來在司法委員審查的時候我們的立法委員們有很多的意見那我們這一次送來的案子當然是已經參酌立法委員的審查意見裡面所以會做若干的調整基本上會做調整跟上一屆的這個但是我們還是要完成他的程序就是必須我們整個討論以後然後送到我們院會院會通過以後我們才會送到立法院來所以我希望會在這個會期以前送進來這個部分我想你們"},{"start":3251.135,"end":3252.721,"text":"理論上應該因為上一屆在審整個審查"},{"start":3254.383,"end":3280.611,"text":"完整之後的條文事實上做了很多的跟你們原本送來的草案做了很多的調整上次有保留三條那這個部分我們會做討論然後或者做一部分的修正然後再送進來我希望的就是這樣不要說上一屆送的條文這一屆又送進來同樣的這個上一屆大家有意見保留的條文你再原封不動的送進來我們已經開始進行討論程序了"},{"start":3283.032,"end":3297.251,"text":"那這裡面齁我特別特別齁就是要在這裡除了這個監察法以外齁我們目前這個監察院國家人權委員會的組織法齁裡面有關這個第二條第一款齁這個有關這個"},{"start":3301.411,"end":3317.942,"text":"這個我們國家人權委員會目前對於人權委員會對涉及酷刑侵害人權或構成各種形式歧視的事件進行調查並依法處理或救濟這是目前的這個國家人權委員會組織法第二條第一款"},{"start":3319.127,"end":3346.553,"text":"那這個部分呢我特別特別要這個跟李秘書長來討論一下就是第一個就是說所謂涉及酷刑這個酷刑這兩個字齁在目前法律上面他有其他的定義嗎什麼樣叫做酷刑我的了解是沒有明確的定義但是這個我們有巴黎原則底下的所謂的酷刑公約裡面有一定的方向跟指引所以我們現在是按照什麼你剛剛講酷刑公約"},{"start":3347.233,"end":3366.861,"text":"我們基本上我們是巴黎原則的簽訂國所以我們會依照這樣我們必須國際法化所以現在目前用國際公約的標準來基本上我們原則希望如此但是要逐步達成因為現在事實上國內法裡面對酷刑並沒有定義所以你這一條在酷刑的這部分在這個與人權團體的時候會有這個這個部分的一些討論另外這個"},{"start":3375.504,"end":3392.207,"text":"我們在這一條裡面規定最後就是說依法處理或救濟齁這個會不會有點空我目前的做法是怎麼樣處理或救濟做什麼樣處理或救濟這個部分我是不是請人權會的副執行秘書跟您打破好可以請副執行秘書"},{"start":3394.096,"end":3414.127,"text":"委員好有關於我們在組織法的第二條的第一款提到的對於酷刑或是侵害人權或是歧視的部分我們來依法處理跟救濟那這部分我目前我們是會接受相關的依照職權或陳情的調查我們會來做處理處理我現在就要問說這個所謂處理是你們現在目前是怎麼處理"},{"start":3415.175,"end":3443.107,"text":"我們的處理我們就是會如果要調查的話我們要經過不是調查處理按照這一條最後的結果並依法處理及救濟這個處理及救濟目前是做什麼樣的處理我們的調查我們在相關的結果如果我們可能會函詢給相關的陳情人把相關的我們調查的結果告知然後我們也會把調查的結果函給相關的行政機關涉及相關行政機關來做處理處理我們就一個文區就對了"},{"start":3445.322,"end":3462.932,"text":"我跟委員報告這更完整一點如果經過人權委員會的調查認為有些部分需要處理涉及這個機關違法或失職會送到監察院來那如果有其他的部分行政上的部分我們會送給這個時間的關係時間的關係這個部分我認為現在目前條文所謂的處理跟救濟事實上跟沒有處理是一樣的意思這個我們未來這個部分要做一些明確化這個法條會空洞化"},{"start":3474.128,"end":3491.444,"text":"會變成你所謂處理與救濟不少所謂處理程序我們也沒有目前也沒有這個相關的職權行使的相關規定到底做什麼處理也不知道好不好對這個就是我們這次送法來的對我希望在整個修法過程中必須要把這個所謂處理跟救濟這樣子的程序要把法制化是"},{"start":3492.301,"end":3519.133,"text":"再來我跟您討論一個問題目前大家對於資安的部分有很多的討論我們行政院在前年的8月31號通過一個行政機關使用生成式AI的參考指引有制定一個行政指導原則參考指引這個部分"},{"start":3520.488,"end":3528.407,"text":"這個部分齁這個因為我們在這個我們自己齁我們在這個監察院裡面我們也有提到說有關的這個這個"},{"start":3531.594,"end":3555.622,"text":"這個公營事業公益學校行政法人使用AI用這個參考指引來那目前我們這個這個監我們的監察的業務監委的巡迴工作目前有沒有把這樣子使用AI這個各機關他有沒有依照這樣子生成式AI的參考指引有沒有依據這個這個指引來執行有沒有納入我們目前的這個這個巡查工作好"},{"start":3556.302,"end":3578.533,"text":"這個部分我分3個部分跟省委員回應第一個部分有關AI的生成其實我們委員也有在自動調查當中這是第一個第二個就是這些指引下來各機關有沒有執行或是會有什麼樣相關的意見我們在去年年底的行政院巡查的時候我們有跟行政院在提出這個問題那跟行政院提出第三個部分才講"},{"start":3579.033,"end":3593.553,"text":"第三個部分是有關AI這個對深層式AI的部分我們國家人權委員會裡面有做專案的討論我看到你們的國家人權委員會的這個裝成策略計畫裡面也有提到有特別提到但是我剛剛的問題是說你們目前這個這個"},{"start":3597.057,"end":3599.46,"text":"我剛跟委員報告的就是我們在去年的行政院的巡查裡面我們有特別跟行政院提醒這件事情那今年的巡查裡面我們還會追蹤"},{"start":3616.877,"end":3617.638,"text":"實際上監察院是一個獨立的單位"},{"start":3643.601,"end":3669.926,"text":"他事實上在我們的資通安全的這些部分他可以擔任一個獨立的集合單位這個部分我們在行政院遵循資安等級的法尊事項就有提到國家應該要有一個就資通安全的獨立的集合單位我個人是認為監察院事實上是適合扮演這個角色的這部分請秘書長回去研究好不好"},{"start":3671.032,"end":3672.953,"text":"主席在這邊做一個說明根據憲法第71條立法院開會時關係院院長及各部會首長得列席陳述意見"},{"start":3697.58,"end":3713.023,"text":"那今天我們的議程安排的是由監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫那形式上跟立法院對於行政院各部會行使職權質詢是些許不同"},{"start":3713.904,"end":3729.401,"text":"建議委員可以參考我們憲法第71條的精神本質來瞭解監察院在本年度的立法計畫因為這是屬於本院的全責那接下來要邀請的是陳委員峻宇發言"},{"start":3747.639,"end":3774.27,"text":"好謝謝主席那主席請秘書長好有請李秘書長從委員長好謝謝秘書長還有謝謝我們所有列席的各部會的首長那首先我想就叫我們監察院的部分我想請教秘書長就是在宜蘭特教的有一個體罰案體罰案那這個部分在"},{"start":3775.693,"end":3802.084,"text":"本席的選區宜蘭縣發生的一個特教體罰案是在一個這個某公立的附幼的學前特教班那當時的這個教師是經由三招來所招聘進請來學校擔任老師的並沒有特教或幼教的這個專業那我們也得知在這一班的特教幼童遭到老師這個強迫為"},{"start":3805.044,"end":3807.127,"text":"強迫餵飯、束帶束褲、強迫拉筋、過度體能訓練等脫序行為甚至還有虐打行為"},{"start":3819.192,"end":3844.213,"text":"那也有這個特教的助理老師從旁側錄的影片來做佐證在整個過程縣政府經過調查之後雖然是判定非屬重大情節啦非屬情節重大僅判這個老師停聘一年而且罰款六萬後來雖然有改聘改為情節重大"},{"start":3845.336,"end":3874.022,"text":"可是仍然是以最低的這個法則來懲罰當事人在一年之後他就可以繼續當老師所以這個也是許多家長所擔心的那針對這個案子除了我們必須要釐清案情在制度上也要檢討是否缺乏合格的這個私援所以才會影響到學童的受教權也讓所有的家長無法這個放心的這個來讓小孩子去學校就讀"},{"start":3875.262,"end":3891.315,"text":"所以在整個過程裡面我們也看到這個判決的結果或許不是讓所有的家長都非常的滿意那我想就教秘書長對這個案情的了解情況還有您認知上這個案情應該會怎麼樣好 謝謝陳委員"},{"start":3893.917,"end":3917.668,"text":"我跟陳委員報告,監察院對於特教或幼教的部分我們有很多的調查案但是我的印象中沒有宜蘭這一件所以我的了解就是說我們回去以後我們跟委員討論看看這個部分有沒有需要立案那這個部分我們再來跟陳委員做比較詳細的報告好,秘書長沒關係那因為在上個禮拜五"},{"start":3919.409,"end":3947.008,"text":"我們監察院的葉大華委員認為這個案子涉及的這個身心障礙兒童受虐的情況以及他就學的安全相關議題那我們的葉委員為了釐清整個事情的處理是否有缺失所以他已經有主動申請要自動調查那我也希望說我們對於這個案子的關心雖然可能在整個剛剛秘書長您答覆的情況是"},{"start":3949.349,"end":3951.731,"text":"目前這份文我還沒有看到所以我們會跟葉大華委員再做討論"},{"start":3968.624,"end":3985.85,"text":"我要拜託秘書長就是要持續關心那既然委員已經介入調查那我也希望說整個調查結果能夠儘早公布出來讓所有的這個我們看委員調查的一個狀況這個我們都尊重委員的行使好秘書長謝謝"},{"start":3987.984,"end":4005.815,"text":"因為在這個我們兒童權利的公約裡面有明定要保護我們這些兒童不受到任何形式的這種身心靈的暴力情況甚至傷害還有這個虐待那人權會所公布的忠誠策略計畫中也宰明要檢討我們校園"},{"start":4008.157,"end":4019.365,"text":"這個老師對於學生的這種暴力處理的機制,釐清發生的原因提出政策的這個建議來降低暴力的這種發生所以我也希望說我們監察院對這個案子應該是要這個"},{"start":4023.786,"end":4052.038,"text":"更多的關心讓整個案子除了能夠盡早清楚以外也能夠讓老師跟學生的關係應該要有一個更明確的分界好 謝謝陳委員我跟陳委員很快的兩個回應第一個部分是有關這一案現在如果業大法委員已經自動調查了我們會尊重業大法委員的職權那第二個部分是有關師對生的霸凌監察院我們人權委員會其實有一個專案研究報告"},{"start":4053.88,"end":4077.098,"text":"所以我們有針對這件事情認真的調查那瞭解他的整個國家的狀況那所以我們這個部分在調查報告完成以後我們會公告好 謝謝秘書長那接續我想請教就是人民的這種書狀案件那我們從監察院第4條這個規定裡面監察院及監察委員得收受人民的這種書狀"},{"start":4078.615,"end":4107.756,"text":"那人民如果發現公務員有違法施指的行為舉證後就能夠向監察院或監察委員來舉發那我們從最近的監察院公告的統計數據看來在人民書狀的案件性質當中明顯集中在這個司法局內政兩類尤其又以這個司法為最大宗占比將近4成那司法"},{"start":4108.476,"end":4124.044,"text":"及預證的案件所佔的比例近兩幾屆是逐步的在上升當中是否可以判斷這個民怨可能集中在司法或是民眾特別關心司法的議題我想就叫秘書長對這個數據的解讀為何"},{"start":4127.57,"end":4131.334,"text":"會不會變相就是變成民眾對於基層的司法這種不信任"},{"start":4153.743,"end":4168.68,"text":"這個當然民眾的不信任是一個因素第二個就是民眾本來的心情就是我如果被判書這個我的案件書我當然會有心情不滿所以也有可能因為這樣提出檢舉案但是我們還是會由委員來判斷這個到底要不要立案調查"},{"start":4172.364,"end":4173.985,"text":"其實監察院現在案件已經非常多而且我們的工作量已經很重了"},{"start":4188.66,"end":4206.165,"text":"好那這部分也是請我們可能監察院對這部分要去做比較好的檢討讓這個地方的司法單位該受理的案件就直接在地方看能不能就直接做比較妥善的處理我們回去研究監察院可以做什麼樣的改善好"},{"start":4207.225,"end":4228.457,"text":"那我想另外再請教我們秘書長就是針對這個死刑存廢的相關議題的問題如果談到民眾最關心的這個司法議題這個死刑的存廢一直是台灣民眾討論的一個非常重要的議題那到底廢除死刑是否合適在人權會我們"},{"start":4231.038,"end":4247.472,"text":"也把條例為是重點的目標之一那在中層策略的計畫當中也寫到就是要推動逐步廢除死刑建立人權會有關死刑議題的這個論述來提升民眾廢除死刑的這個支持度"},{"start":4248.112,"end":4268.297,"text":"那我們不管說從過去國發會所做出有8成8的民眾是反對廢除死刑或是最近媒體的民調也有7成以上是反對那我想請教秘書長就是面對這個民意強烈的反彈人權會應該要如何來推動這個廢除死刑的這個案子"},{"start":4269.097,"end":4296.063,"text":"我跟陳委員報告目前司法院他有定一個日期叫做4月23號他在憲法法庭裡面會討論到這個議題我們監察院國家人權委員會被司法院命為我們是鑑定機關所以我們會提供我們的鑑定意見至於鑑定意見我們現在由人權會的委員裡面我們有一個工作小組跟細節討論目前還在研議當中"},{"start":4299.639,"end":4325.111,"text":"那所以到底我們會不會廢除死刑的部分也還沒有很明確吧還在討論當中以國家人權委員會的立場來講我們很難反對我們會以廢除死刑為目標這個人權會公開都講過而且我們是巴黎原則的簽約國所以我們都以這個目標來努力會以廢除死刑為目標"},{"start":4326.67,"end":4347.455,"text":"支持國家與被處死刑為目標,這是人權會一向的立場。好,那這個我們死刑議題需要跟社會來做一個大量的溝通,因為說實在這個意見可能相左,那也很明確可能這個地方社會上的意見這個分歧,所以我也希望說監察院在對於這個議題的推動的過程裡面,"},{"start":4350.116,"end":4367.962,"text":"應該是要多多的聽取地方的意見我跟陳委員報告這個社會現在的整個的認知跟我們人權委員會的認知可能有很大的差距這個我們也理解所以我們監察院他是一個忠誠目標就是我們希望透過跟家屬的溝通透過跟被害者家屬的溝通"},{"start":4368.542,"end":4389.74,"text":"透過更多跟所謂的NGO團體的溝通那對這個事情對整個社會氛圍來形成漸漸形成一個共識但是現在在這個社會還沒有共識之前我們監察院的國家人權委員會只會表達我們的意見那其他至於要不要實行要不要怎麼樣那個不是我們監察院的職權"},{"start":4390.461,"end":4407.71,"text":"好那因為我們4月份馬上就要迎來這個憲法的法庭對死刑違憲案的這個辯論所以我也希望說我們監察院對於此事的立場為何到時候應該要有一個明確的說法我們會很清楚的表達我們的立場好那就謝謝秘書長跟所有的同仁謝謝陳委員謝謝陳委員謝謝李秘書長"},{"start":4425.691,"end":4442.468,"text":"好 那我們下一位請鍾嘉賓委員主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府監管司長 官員 會長工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生那麼有請李秘書長"},{"start":4447.586,"end":4473.435,"text":"總委好 秘書長好剛剛有委員發言提到一個是否為政治獻金案你們提到的那個主要的意見說必須行事程序告一段落後才會開始對行政法啟動這是不是根據行政法法第26條第一項第二項相關定是是根據行政法法好那我大概就是先確認一下那麼今天本席呢想要來關切的就是監察院的立法計畫"},{"start":4474.375,"end":4499.591,"text":"那我想呢關於最近我們在媒體上看到的施暴的事件層次不窮比如說去年北京管理人做事視同作業收容人也是另外的受刑人對受刑人施暴致傷在我們屏東有發生警察痛毆嫌犯致死那在2019年高雄監獄的虐囚案管理員後來被判刑三年十個月定宴那最近也發生桃園分局三個警察呢涉嫌擲電磁棒刑求17歲的少年"},{"start":4500.291,"end":4515.259,"text":"請問秘書長你認不認爲這邊是不是負責行使公權力的執法者設有縱容發生凌虐或是假借公權力去施暴有甚至到達凌虐酷刑的程度有沒有"},{"start":4516.168,"end":4536.295,"text":"我跟各位報告這些案件非常多那幾乎每一個案我們都有委員立案調查那這是是不是也有接近於聯合國禁止酷刑公約算不算這是禁止酷刑公約當中所說的不能到的殘忍的有辱人格的待遇或處罰算不算"},{"start":4537.871,"end":4553.508,"text":"平東桃園的案件是那台灣有沒有加入禁止酷刑公約簽約國有目前沒有啦目前沒有我們有簽巴黎原則有巴黎原則那所以目前台灣對於酷刑公約的態度人權委員的立場您所知道的是怎麼樣"},{"start":4554.69,"end":4575.226,"text":"我們的瞭解是國家人權委員會我們希望這個行政院能夠盡速的通過這個酷刑公約的立法好 酷刑公約的國內那怎麼去訂立施行法 有行政院訂囉是好 那麼監察院有沒有琢磨的空間我們來看一下監察院對於北監剛剛有說的案件的調查意見說到什麼"},{"start":4576.747,"end":4597.768,"text":"說到說就對於去年北京收容人那個案子呢﹖你們有說﹖要加強預防措施﹖包括監視畫面還不足要改善﹖嚴禁將器械與收容人使用﹖還有督導人員必須不定期的去稽查瞭解﹖這個各場設的適同作業收容人的作業情況﹖是否還有可以調整更為完善呢﹖你認為還有沒有值得行政機關更為改善的部分"},{"start":4598.843,"end":4622.671,"text":"每一個案子都有調整改善的空間那我們會再注意這件事所以關切人權行使監察權對行政機關做要求也是貴院的一個職權是好那麼請教一下一個歷史懸案1981年有一個陳文辰事件那麼這個陳文辰事件就是遭警總秘密約談約談就是也沒有拘票請他出來聊一聊他非嫌疑犯"},{"start":4623.371,"end":4647.57,"text":"那所以呢後來呢這個警總就不得在秘密約談了齁那根據警察偵查犯罪手冊他說查查可疑之人警察呢應遵守刑事訴訟法警察職權刑事法及警協使用條例去進行取締盤查檢查及搜索請問一下就教於秘書長你的法律專業齁怎麼去定義區分可疑之人跟嫌疑犯呢"},{"start":4649.245,"end":4659.713,"text":"陳文成是不是嫌疑犯跟委員報告陳文成案我們調查過兩次監察院歷屆以來他不是嫌疑犯所以他的情況之下後面我會再提連不是嫌疑犯的人不過我提醒總委員這個是在1981年發生的當時的時空環境背景"},{"start":4673.323,"end":4689.532,"text":"那麼你認為基於人權委員會對於弱權人質的執掌我們對於凌虐或酷刑事前預防跟事後懲處你覺得哪個要優先進行都很重要人權會的角度我們是希望強調在事前預防"},{"start":4691.572,"end":4712.538,"text":"懲處有法規,法規上有預防的部分是否完善,我們看一下中華民國刑法第126條有管收解送拘禁人犯植物之公園對於人犯施以凌虐者,就類似酷刑處有期徒刑,刑法要懲處那你認為目前的這個法規,就你的法律見解,刑法126條的預防上是否完善"},{"start":4714.179,"end":4733.288,"text":"我對這個不適合表示意見那你認為他這裡面的人犯包括嫌疑犯我不太懂就是拘禁人犯因為他禁止那如果是嫌疑犯我們就禁止他對於拘禁人犯或解送的時候要不得已凌虐是不是"},{"start":4734.651,"end":4757.324,"text":"所以人犯的規定是不是嫌疑犯中委員我們跟您報告有關法規的討論這個刑法126條並沒有在我們監察院的討論範圍可以啦我只是就教你的法律意見啦我不是法律人其實呢我們在這裡又遇到一個陳文成案他連人犯可能都稱不上因為他也不是嫌疑犯所以其實酷刑公約在目前刑法上的規定顯有不足"},{"start":4759.005,"end":4759.865,"text":"人權委員會能有效行使職權嗎?"},{"start":4773.46,"end":4783.165,"text":"我們還是希望我們的職權行使的相關規定能夠盡快通過是的這就是我關切的那目前人權委員的行使法立法院通過三法案第一那時候在2019年通過人權委員會組織法那你們就設了國家人權委員會那你包括了組織法國家人權委員會的組織法對不對監察院的組織法也修正了對不對"},{"start":4798.874,"end":4814.296,"text":"包括監察院委員會組織法的條文修正草案也通過了嘛那你們113年今年的立法計畫打算修監察法當中提出一個人權專章請問這個人權專章跟人權委員的刑事法你們覺得怎麼去區隔它"},{"start":4816,"end":4839.321,"text":"這個中委員我跟你報告兩件事情第一個就是職權行使我們透過監察法的專章來行使那這個部分在上一屆第10屆的立法委員會那是不是這樣的話有專章就不需要再有一個人權委員會的行使法那如果有人權委員會的行使法可能就不需要監察法的專章沒有我跟委員報告職權行使法的部分其實連我們的委員也有很多不同的意見"},{"start":4841.301,"end":4860.979,"text":"我要跟各位講的是人權機關獨立的人權機關不一定要設有作用法才成為必要的要件但是如果沒有作用法你們監察法也要有專章才足以讓人權委員會發生作用對我們希望更完整那如果有行使法也是可以讓人權委員會落實他的職權"},{"start":4862.327,"end":4886.78,"text":"對不是一定要為前提啦有專章也可以所以專章是你們要提那如果是質詢行使的話我們立法院也可以提這個就是我跟委員報告的立法院當初通過人權委員會組織法的時候做了一個附帶決議這個附帶決議要求我們以監察法的形式我了解我了解所以我要釐清這一點今天你來報告立法計畫是就監察法的部分的人權專章"},{"start":4887.52,"end":4887.74,"text":"法規與空間設置完備"},{"start":4904.264,"end":4923.463,"text":"是不是用這些方式如果說要禁止酷刑公約如果沒有施刑法我們完善現行法規有沒有可能達到事前預防的效果比如說有些密閉的空尿監視器就像你們的要求報告有可以有效的相當程度的達到事前防範你覺得這樣有沒有符合禁止酷刑公約的目的"},{"start":4925.162,"end":4925.942,"text":"立法院秘書長"},{"start":4945.624,"end":4960.584,"text":"我們希望人權委員會立場希望行政院能夠去支持這個禁止酷刑公約當中相關的施行的部分的法規那這個法規呢行政院可能要不要去弄一個施行法那是行政院提出立法院也可以有看法"},{"start":4961.104,"end":4985.315,"text":"但是目前既然監察院已經有個人權委員會了你沒打算訂定人權專章了不管他是要行使法還是要人權專章是由你們訂還是由立法院這邊來提出但是如果人權委員會有一個專章或行使法他是不是可以有效的去監督要求各行政機關去完善他們現在包括收容人犯包括警察傳喚羈押或者押送相關的規定"},{"start":4990.817,"end":5007.525,"text":"．使得酷刑的情況不適於發生．你覺得有沒有幫助兩個部分 第一個部分 監察院的職責是監督阿特別是國家人權委員會是監督那至於執行的部分 我的理解是行政院近期之內就會提出酷刑公約的相關法案"},{"start":5008.365,"end":5033.255,"text":"監督行政院去執行嘛行政院他的人權委員會如果有個專章或行司法他更可以要求去監督行政院有沒有在相關的配套完善嘛是不是這樣所以說如果我們第一個主張就是人權會要督導各級行政機關落實人權對不對那麼我們希望要做重在事前的預防而不是只有事後的懲處你同意嗎我同意這個騙解我跟中委員是一樣"},{"start":5033.655,"end":5057.375,"text":"那希望我希望監察院能夠盡早提出你們的說法叫做人權委員會的專章那以立人權委員會來督導各級行政機關能夠在相關的配套上不一定要立法在相關的行政法規上就能夠落實對於包括這個所謂的人犯或者說廣義的可能遭受國家酷刑的這些對待人能夠落實保障他的人權你願不願意來支持"},{"start":5059.436,"end":5060.276,"text":"以上謝謝我們宗教兵委員的諮詢"},{"start":5088.639,"end":5091,"text":"主席有請秘書長有請李秘書長秘書長請教一下地方巡查我們監察院一年的經費是多少"},{"start":5118.245,"end":5120.548,"text":"那我想根據剛剛黃國昌委員問的問題您在當立法委員的時候曾經說過地方巡查無意義因自廢 對不對"},{"start":5135.143,"end":5153.701,"text":"我當立委的時候是我今天不是以立委身份來沒有關係我今天是以立法委員我非常認同李俊逸前立法委員的意見所以我來幫助李俊逸前立法委員今年的預算審查我們來協助你把地方監察巡查把預算全部砍掉讓你實現你自費的目標好不好"},{"start":5155.353,"end":5183.726,"text":"等到預算再來討論很好,所以你不反對嘛,謝謝你我沒有不反對,我說等到預算,今天不能討論預算沒有關係,那我想請教您我剛才也看到您在答詢的過程中,剛好也是有一題我要問的就是說講到我們的監察委員的這個所謂的績效然後你回答了一句說其實最近這幾屆各界的案件辦的其實差不多,是這個意思嗎?是好,這一句話我先記下來,待會我就來看看你們案件數辦的如何"},{"start":5185.27,"end":5208.158,"text":"最近我們看這個監察委員的績效 可以從質跟量兩個角度來看嘛我先來談質的問題最近蘇丹紅風暴越演越烈 食安五環 破工 上下游全數失守那其實這個涉案的理性負責人 2018年就開始進口相關的產品他的旗下十間公司都被陸續檢出蘇丹紅"},{"start":5210.319,"end":5237.916,"text":"政府竟然6年放任演變成今天的系統性的食安風暴那最離譜是這個公司蘇丹紅產品在邊境被查驗出來之後他不是銷毀是退運然後轉一圈再用其他人頭公司的名義再進來3年前他還出了一個青辣椒粉被下游驗出有蘇丹紅退貨然後沒有將貨品銷毀然後再用同批反賣給另家廠商"},{"start":5240.057,"end":5263.864,"text":"我想要問一下監察院過去對於食安把關方面有什麼具體的作為我們對食安的個案我們查過很多案那有關羅委員剛剛提到的蘇丹紅現在也立案調查非常好我期待我們的監察院對於蘇丹紅的這個立案調查能夠交給民眾我們一個滿意的結果不過我跟秘書長說"},{"start":5264.704,"end":5281.434,"text":"坦白講我對於我們監察院的辦案我不是那麼有信心為什麼先來從過去幾個食安風暴我想請教您2008年奶粉違法添加三聚氰胺事件監察院查出衛生署有沒有查出疏失"},{"start":5284.741,"end":5302.476,"text":"五大疏失通過糾正2011年塑化劑污染事件查出7個問題糾正行政院衛生署、環保署2013年所謂的添加畫質澱粉事件有點像現在蘇丹紅事件類似"},{"start":5303.497,"end":5316.682,"text":"當時也糾正衛福部跟經濟部那到2017年就是我們現在蔡英文總統上任之後雞蛋剪出分埔泥請問你我們的這個監察院查的結果是什麼這個部分我們是糾正糾正農委會管理書師嘛對不對是誰哪個監委糾正的"},{"start":5328.732,"end":5357.461,"text":"第5屆的展櫃美跟王美玉委員對嘛就是馬總統提名的展櫃美嘛對不對好接下來2018年業者回收不良彈品重製液彈販售這些都是我們行政院可能認定類似所謂系統性那我想請問當時有將近百萬個黑心彈流入市面烘焙業自助餐全中標請問那個時候已經是蔡總統提名的監察委員通過了什麼"},{"start":5358.983,"end":5377.639,"text":"這個部分還在調查當中通過調查報告啦 零糾正啦 對不對什麼在調查 通過調查報告零糾正啊我再想請教你去年發生的巴西進口袋洗產地的爭議當然你還在調查中嘛 對不對所以我要告訴你 從池的部分為什麼第二年的蘇丹紅 到現在"},{"start":5379.361,"end":5394.939,"text":"會發生系統性越演越烈監察院做事後懲處單位其實就像一條鞭子嘛 對不對他可以督促政府來去把食安等於是以後不要重導過錯嘛 對不對如果蘇丹好農部分是上個禮拜才立案的"},{"start":5395.815,"end":5418.559,"text":"對我當然知道上禮拜亮我要講的就是你們系統性對食安的部分坦白講對政府的監督力道我覺得鞭子要再加強一點接下來我再從亮的部分來告訴你這個都是個案每一個案情都不同我告訴你沒關係啊直的部分你都變個案嘛我也懂啦我們來講亮的部分你剛剛自己講其實這幾屆監委辦的案子都亮都差不多對不對"},{"start":5420.28,"end":5444.113,"text":"請教您我們分第4屆第5屆第6屆監委第4屆的監委全是馬總統提名的第5屆有重疊一半一半對不對差不多啦有一部分是馬英九一部分是蔡英文那第6屆就是全是蔡英文提名的對不對我們來比較第4屆跟第6屆全部馬英九提名跟全部蔡英文提名請問彈劾案第4屆每個月平均多少案月結多少案"},{"start":5447.062,"end":5456.901,"text":"每個月平均多少案你們這邊寫的是兩案好 謝謝齁然後呢你知道我們的蔡總統完全第6屆監委是多少1.8嘛 對不對"},{"start":5459.96,"end":5476.295,"text":"1.8是沒有差別很大啦但是我要問你下一個囉糾正案 羅遠我再補充一句第4屆的這個堂和案很多是兼職案件是同一類型好啦我告訴你你要再去分別我直接跟你講我再來講糾正案糾正案第4屆監委16.1每個月請問我們的第6屆多少"},{"start":5483.737,"end":5508.679,"text":"每個月7件啦我講的是今天通過糾正不是說今天你調查的案件你糾正案就是馬政府每個月16.1啊你的每個月全平均就是7.0啊不到一半啊那我再想請教你調查案齁請問你知道第4屆監委調查案月均多少件嗎"},{"start":5510.7,"end":5530.268,"text":"這個羅委員我提醒你一下第4屆的情況因為監委有缺額好啦我告訴你監委有缺額人家調查案件比你積極喔因為太多的案件是積極案沒有我跟你講結果嘛我不要講調查案件而已我光講說結果調查案你不能只看數字重點不在數字"},{"start":5530.868,"end":5532.79,"text":"總共1671件 月均23件啊你們那麼關心人權報告"},{"start":5552.528,"end":5570.919,"text":"人權委員會是在20208月1號才成立的就算人權委員會20208月1號成立人家沒有成立之前人權的調查的案件就比你要多過將近3倍我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的所以這個統計數字是沒有意義的這樣的統計數字是沒有意義的我們現在人權的案子是由人權委員會來打的"},{"start":5579.244,"end":5580.025,"text":"實安過去的查你的糾正次數是最少的"},{"start":5596.463,"end":5597.083,"text":"所以案件數不是重點嗎"},{"start":5616.485,"end":5616.825,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5636.553,"end":5636.993,"text":"監察院功能張不張"},{"start":5656.523,"end":5667.409,"text":"監委辦案績效好不好 讓我們社會大眾來去看那我再跟你講 說真的 我覺得我們監察院的辦案素質我講一個親身經歷的案件 你知道監察院很認真查那個所謂財產 我們講那個政治獻金嘛 對不對政治獻金財產申報對嘛 很認真查嘛 你很認真查了我的政治獻金啊 對不對"},{"start":5682.625,"end":5695.078,"text":"然後你知道嗎 有一次監察院在2018年的2020年的時候說我的政治獻金有4筆姓名跟身份證字號不符 最少的一筆306元還說要罰我6萬到120萬我想請問你齁 最後結果是什麼 我的申報是實還是不實"},{"start":5702.602,"end":5705.204,"text":"我告訴你 我們的辦公室跟你們查詢 你們態度可不是這樣"},{"start":5716.84,"end":5739.726,"text":"我們報告搞了一個禮拜中還是透過臺北市民政局來確定還我清白你們的辦案品質結果就被臺北市民政局打臉最後跟我講系統錯誤那你的系統也太入伍了吧我們完全依照內政部的系統我知道謝謝你阿為什麼那臺北市民政局的系統就跟你答案是不一樣最後我要講時間到了感謝你謝謝好謝謝羅委員謝謝李秘書長"},{"start":5745.373,"end":5769.222,"text":"那主席在這裡再度的提醒今天我們排案是請監察院來報告113年度的立法計畫立法院監察院在憲法條文當中跟總統和其他五院都同為憲政機關所以呢今天監察院系一憲法第71條立法院開會時關西院"},{"start":5773.864,"end":5799.127,"text":"關西院跟行政院向立法院負責的情況有不同他是來及各部位首長來列席陳述意見所以希望發言委員可以體察這之間行政院向立法院負責的質詢方式以及本市會議的主旨以及憲法規定的監察院跟立法院的關係跟今天列席報告說明的首長的立場"},{"start":5799.787,"end":5821.492,"text":"有些不太一樣：謝謝那接下來有請副總召：坤城委員質詢：發言齁主席請秘書長有請李秘書長副委員好這樣子對談有沒有比較輕鬆一點"},{"start":5828.59,"end":5852.216,"text":"我覺得因為我第8屆的時候也是這樣第9屆改了所以我都適應蠻好的請問一下這個秘書長我們監察院自古以來叫御史大夫這是非常非常重要對於所有我們所有官員的考評觀真觀德所有的查詢要為一個國家"},{"start":5856.618,"end":5883.892,"text":"能夠梳理好文官制度我們監察院是非常重要查核的一個單位對不對監察院是一個重要的憲政機關那我們處理的就是公務人員公務員的違法失職對阿現在這個行政院片面宣布6月1號開始阿這個台灣不能組團團客赴大陸喔台灣人民依照憲法中華民國憲法有沒有遷徙的自由"},{"start":5885.117,"end":5892.15,"text":"我跟委員報告 這個部分屬於政策的討論 監察院不便有任何的意見政策討論是行政院跟立法院的市值"},{"start":5893.069,"end":5893.109,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":5917.679,"end":5918.199,"text":"2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年2018年"},{"start":5945.205,"end":5971.681,"text":"就已經查出在我們的編遣就已經查出來不但沒有沒入銷毀還把它退回這個是高雄地檢署發布的訊息再加上這個民進黨有好幾位委員都表示蘇貞虹早就在2021年2023年衛福部就已經知道了"},{"start":5972.679,"end":5973.801,"text":"請問一下秘書長：海關有沒有人模不彰"},{"start":5987.855,"end":5992.018,"text":"這個我跟部委員報告2018年監察院並沒有有關蘇丹紅的調查蘇丹紅的調查我們是上個禮拜有委員自動調查那我們監察院只能查這樣我沒有緊張我只是報告事實我只是報告事實對我跟部委員報告事實謝謝不好意思我沒有講什麼"},{"start":6018.315,"end":6031.32,"text":"若高雄地檢署說的屬實海關有沒有失職這個部分我們都在調查中調查中的案子我不便發表任何意見衛福部有沒有失職我不便發表任何意見"},{"start":6032.984,"end":6057.806,"text":"地檢署偵查部不公開都已經講了 你們監察院什麼時候變成不公開的單位我不曉得陽光照不進來啊我作為幕僚長我本來就不能有任何的批評第一個海關 第二個衛福部早就知情為什麼還造成這種系統性的這麼大的一個風暴再過來食藥署說 哎呀台灣人民沒有關係啦"},{"start":6059.267,"end":6087.61,"text":"蘇貞雄就跟喝茶喝咖啡一樣啦齁這實在有夠誇張啊秘書長你們這個調查報告什麼時候可以出來我們上個禮拜自動調查大概什麼時候可以出來調查案這個應該是重大的跟他的性質有關我們要看是一般案件重大案件或是特殊重大案件大概多久嘛這關係到全民健康的問題嘛如果一般案件的話是三個月重大案件是六個月那重大特殊案件是一年"},{"start":6088.989,"end":6108.607,"text":"本席請教一下這麼簡單的案子屬於哪一種案子你告訴本席這個部分要由委員來決定不是由我來決定秘書長依照你的經驗你都做到秘書長了監察院的秘書長你判斷不出來嗎這個各個委員對每一個個案有不同的意見所以我不便表達任何意見你的意思說要拖一年是嗎"},{"start":6110.406,"end":6134.31,"text":"這個算是國家重大案件嗎有這麼難查嗎這個部分我跟部委員報告監察院監察委員一線把他獨立行使職權我作為一個幕僚長我不便做任何的評斷那他們要列為一般案件或是重大案件或是特殊重大案件這不是我的權責你不能疑問三不知嗎我沒有疑問三不知我很清楚的告訴監察院的規定是什麼本席就靜候"},{"start":6139.144,"end":6167.754,"text":"看你們辦案的能力有沒有像辦羅志強立委這麼快來我們再來請教本席就看你是三個月六個月還是一年我們拭目以待再過來這個陸配啊四年入籍還是六年入籍四加二是六年一般的外配是三加一四年"},{"start":6168.683,"end":6176.327,"text":"我們現在請教一下,如果陸配偶6年改為跟所有外籍一樣,這樣符不符合國際人權的兩公約?"},{"start":6185.782,"end":6199.525,"text":"我回應副委員兩個意見第一個我們不因膚色、階級、貧窮或富貴有任何的差別這是一個第二個陸配跟外配它適用的法規是不一樣的"},{"start":6200.442,"end":6229.685,"text":"陸配是適用兩岸人民關係條例那外配的話是移民法所以兩個本來就不一樣那相關的規定也會不同相關規定就是因為可以調整嘛當然可以修法可以調整啊所以本席在問你有沒有符合國際人權兩公約啊有沒有人權平等的問題啊有沒有國際平權的問題啊是我跟委員報告如果要平等到底平等的定義是什麼"},{"start":6230.245,"end":6256.413,"text":"那我們現在最重要的就是 追求不敷階級的這個所以剛剛請教你的是有沒有符合國際人權兩公約有還是沒有適用的法規不同我無法跟副委員做別的訓練國際兩公約對人權的基本保障秘書長你都判斷不出來我沒有判斷不出來這我跟副委員我跟你講得很清楚五院院長的秘書長"},{"start":6258.611,"end":6265.995,"text":"國際人權公約你回去再study本期下次還會請教你本期下次還會請教你再問你啊這個打詐齁現在越打越詐到底啊我們的國家現在失能的程度到什麼狀況監察院還在睡覺嗎沒有睡覺 監察院很清楚的更新"},{"start":6286.052,"end":6287.333,"text":"民進黨執政8年每1年都向上攀升阿"},{"start":6308.494,"end":6336.208,"text":"監察院做了什麼本席在請教這個問題阿有關打炸的個案我們其實查了也不少那有關這個您說有沒有跟行政院提起本席沒有要你調查打炸你又不是第一線人員你們必須對行政院這些不會考核嘛他們做了什麼嘛所以我跟副委員報告的是上次就是去年年底的時候我們還有特別跟行政院提到這件事這是在中央巡查的時候講的是順便提到的"},{"start":6337.148,"end":6340.29,"text":"臺灣人民不分老幼每一個人平均不要接受至少10次以上的詐騙電話臺灣是無政府狀態嗎提醒你們糾合了哪些人糾談了哪些人還在提醒"},{"start":6366.388,"end":6385.316,"text":"我跟副委員報告這個要一個案這是個案本席什麼叫個案全民的公案什麼叫個案每一個案都要以個案來看嘛監察院做的就是個案調查部會做了什麼成績嘛本席在請教這個問題嘛所以嘛我們每一個都個案所以嘛我們要求行政院好了你講的個案本席在告訴你啦什麼叫個案不要講8年啦5年就好啦"},{"start":6392.438,"end":6398.821,"text":"近5年炸雞案的統計打炸案了108年度23647件109年23054件110年24724件111年29509件112年去年37984件一次膨脹了30幾%這幾乎是政府已經試了已經癱瘓了"},{"start":6429.018,"end":6446.083,"text":"這國會不能夠來請教就教於監察院嗎?你們對所有的部會做了什麼樣的糾取什麼樣的彈劾?這種成績可以嗎?副委員我跟你們報告這個查詐騙打詐的部份這是行政院的職責不是我們監察院的職責"},{"start":6446.903,"end":6446.943,"text":"什麼時候"},{"start":6476.385,"end":6485.944,"text":"我們台灣的部會能夠真正好好來辦事 減少人民的痛苦跟壓力我們也希望這樣那本期拭目以待"},{"start":6488.855,"end":6508.354,"text":"謝謝副總召謝謝李秘書長主席在這裡再三要跟我們委員會報告副總召報告本委員會除了發言台已經按照其他委員會的方式先設置之外司法法制委員會有一個跟其他委員會略有不同的地方司法法制委員會可能是唯一"},{"start":6509.595,"end":6533.572,"text":"憲法的其他憲政機關五院的其他關係院會到本委員會來就預算項目就立法計畫來列席說明那這不同於行政院對立法院負責由立法院對行政部門長官進行官員進行質詢那今天我們排定的議程是監察院113年度的立法計畫"},{"start":6535.233,"end":6562.61,"text":"也希望我們各位委員在司法法制委員會當中秉持憲法第71條的規定我們是邀請關西院的院長及各部會首長來列席陳述意見今天陳述意見的主題是監察院113年的立法計畫監察院不是來這邊做施政報告有請各位委員明察接下來有請林委員思明發言"},{"start":6568.308,"end":6589.385,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請秘書長林委員好是秘書長好我想針對剛才那個召委所提示的其實召委我想我們大家都不是之前的委員對於說我們邀請各部會的官員來這個列席來做業務報告"},{"start":6590.826,"end":6615.135,"text":"當然我們每位委員有時候會這個問跟今天的專題有所不一樣的一個問題但是一定也是跟監察院的業務有關所以我們會問的題目有時候會不限於這個專題也請召委見諒大家好今天我想我剛才大家一直提到這個監委的績效的監察院的績效的問題我有看到好幾位委員都在問"},{"start":6616.215,"end":6619.239,"text":"那你認為說這個我們去評鑑監察院的績效因為你們一直強調說不以這個案件的鑑數來評價你們的績效那你認為要用什麼樣子來作為評鑑"},{"start":6634.592,"end":6645.064,"text":"立法院、監察院都是憲政機關,評價社會各自有公平,所以用案件來不一定是一個合理的方式你們內部有沒有做評鑑?"},{"start":6648.12,"end":6649.96,"text":"監察院在今年1月20日曾對外表示外界不依警評調查案件的建訴來評價監察院的績效"},{"start":6673.266,"end":6690.196,"text":"但是監察院馬上又說112年監察院收受人民書狀16418件是近8年來每年提升所以就叫秘書長那你不是也是以案件書來說明自己的績效嗎是我跟您委員說明"},{"start":6691.396,"end":6718.598,"text":"這個部分我剛才一再強調因為憲法規定監察委員獨立行使職權所以不宜由案件的數的多少因為每個人查的案子到底是大案或小案到底查的是哪一個部分那第二個部分來人民書狀的部分我跟委員報告人民書狀的部分就是書狀量有成長這個本來就是一個事實我們只是提出來那個事實而已每年我們把每年都提出來那我再明確的問您啦我希望您能明確回答"},{"start":6719.218,"end":6737.535,"text":"那您覺得監察院的績效是該用哪些指標來評斷才正確其實監察院很難用特殊的指標就是最重要的是有沒有把違法失職的部分揪出來這個才是憲法賦予我們的權利是 民務長我想我告訴你我想目前事實上"},{"start":6738.916,"end":6762.344,"text":"監察院調查案件數目﹖大家外界普遍認為調查案件數目低落﹖更重要的﹖對於全國民眾關心的議題﹖監察院的監察權行使﹖是否有速行速決﹖這是大家最關心的﹖包含最近的金門海域的陸船翻覆事件﹖"},{"start":6763.284,"end":6784.877,"text":"蘇丹鴻的流竄全台的食安事件以及上週陳院長表示新聞台不該由政府關台我們看到這幾件事情各部會的表現可以說荒腔走板問題仍然存在都沒有解決我們也看不到真相或者解決的方案"},{"start":6785.777,"end":6812.231,"text":"所以本席要在這邊強調確實案件數不是唯一評價監察院的指標因為更重要的是監察院對於人民關心的重大事件或是一些政府單位的濫權有沒有積極快速的調查是不是有所帶動有虧職守我想這個才是我們民眾最關心的所以我來跟你討論一下食安的問題"},{"start":6814.232,"end":6829.251,"text":"就林委員的部分我可以回答很快好你趕快你技術回答兩個問題第一個問題就是監察委員依憲法是負以獨立行使職權所以這個部分我們監察院一般認定他是事後權我們只處理公務員有沒有違法失職"},{"start":6829.972,"end":6856.175,"text":"那除了這個以外：案件的快慢：案件的多寡：不是監察院考慮的重點是那個秘書長這個您都是標準答案在過去您也一直回答委員但是我想對於重大的社會事件那您期待的就是對香港根本會我們能夠盡快的去查個水落石出給我們全民社會一個交代我們現在來看那個食安事件那請問"},{"start":6857.536,"end":6880.569,"text":"這個食安風暴事件有沒有委員已經立案調查了有蘇丹紅已經立案調查那好我整理一下這個就是我們現在關心的這個蘇丹紅的生意事件我們講行政院以及衛福部有四大荒謬之處第一個衛福部在去年就成查獲但是沒有任何作為第二個廠商違法添加竟是民眾檢舉證明邊境檢查失守"},{"start":6884.612,"end":6891.818,"text":"3.廠商是否有做產品流向上下游的登記,實要署長吳秀梅無正面回應4."},{"start":6891.818,"end":6898.803,"text":"蘇丹紅事件爆發,行政院陳建仁自誇,實案成效好,證明高層忽視"},{"start":6900.284,"end":6919.755,"text":"衛福部在2023年就已經查獲9件蘇丹紅進口但3次食安會報與專報竟然是知智未提行政院長陳建仁還在專案報告中口口聲稱我國的食安很好結果直到民眾檢舉蘇丹紅才爆發這件事情"},{"start":6920.935,"end":6942.027,"text":"根據行政院最新的施政報告．以要求大規模的食品業者設定食安安全的監控以及追溯系統．但執政多年的執政黨、民進黨並無競速建立．如今問題仍然還在．驗證政府的食安管理、食安溯源根本就是大破功．更誇張的"},{"start":6943.468,"end":6968.441,"text":"事件發生已經超過半個月 衛福部直到3月4號才定調為系統性的食安事件食藥署在3月6號才急忙在關網設置專區 把批號公開讓大眾查詢民眾早就把有問題的食品已經下肚了 國人還能相信政府說食安沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":6970.291,"end":6985.848,"text":"現在那個衛福部在今天他表示說他會在一個月之內解決這一次的蘇丹紅的問題所以我要請教我們監察院是否也可以在近期競速就可以把這個調查報告做出來"},{"start":6987.37,"end":6998.38,"text":"跟林委員報告你剛所說的都是行政院的事情我監察院不便評論但我們監察院為了這件事情已經立案調查我們會在調查報告寫得很清楚我希望盡快進速啦"},{"start":7003.944,"end":7028.96,"text":"現在衛福部講說他一個月之內就會做出做出問題的解決所以我們能不能盡快盡速我剛才講出那麼多問題讓監察院知道我剛才講的就是讓您了解這個問題所在所以是不是可以也在一個月之內做出調查報告這個時間的部分我沒辦法承諾這個是委員的職權已經立案調查了嘛所以我希望秘書長您能夠要求"},{"start":7029.76,"end":7047.267,"text":"我不能要求委員獨立行使職權我沒有能但是你在召開整個會議的時候沒有沒有這個都是獨立行使職權所以我不能去要求委員你這個查快一點你這個查慢一點剛才你有回答了啦但是這個民主黨人民期待的案件我們還是希望監察院盡速查明事實真相否則讓人家列為重大案件或特殊重大案件"},{"start":7056.391,"end":7057.612,"text":"這次海巡署的問題我想海巡署"},{"start":7081.255,"end":7099.947,"text":"這個於依法執行的時候必須使用密錄器以免造成執法的爭議但是這一次竟然我們立法院決議要給他購買密錄器當時也表示要購買但是這一次的事件竟然發生海巡人員沒有配掛密錄器"},{"start":7100.988,"end":7116.484,"text":"所以沒有一個密錄器的影像所以這方面我們有沒有立法就是那個立案調查有沒有有我跟委員報告這個案子在3月7號立案調查所以您剛提到的問題應該都會在調查報告中呈現好"},{"start":7118.292,"end":7139.262,"text":"還有行政院數位身份證的問題我想這次媒體也報導非常多廠商是要求求償10億在今年1月經過6次調解後雙方達成共識賠償金額在2.8億左右請問民主黨同樣的問題我們監察院是不是已經立案調查這個案子"},{"start":7140.891,"end":7165.463,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,數費身分證的話我們在110年有調查過那我們的結論是要求這個內政部國發會檢討改善檢討改善,這次遇到要賠償啊賠償沒有相關的人員要負責嗎?只有改善相關人員的疏失責任要不要追究?這個案子我們會看這個委員有沒有提出自動調查"},{"start":7167.87,"end":7180.581,"text":"目前還沒有所以我講說監察院都是後知後覺啦我們也可以依據原來的案子再繼續後面的調查我們還是每個案子我們都還是會追蹤的是 我想謠長在這邊真的與眾心長的"},{"start":7183.684,"end":7184.404,"text":"希望監察院"},{"start":7206.339,"end":7228.343,"text":"謝謝林委員也謝謝李秘書長那大家的討論非常激烈也很嚴肅說個輕鬆的如果想要事前預防犯罪可以參考湯姆克魯斯主委員的關鍵報告可以在犯罪者犯罪之前就把他抓起來好接下來我們有請吳委員中線發言好謝謝主席我們有請秘書長"},{"start":7232.805,"end":7262.014,"text":"無言好謝謝秘書長秘書長那個你以前也擔任過第8跟第9屆兩屆的立委是對那今天父親是我們所有法院都非常尊敬的崇拜的無體投地的一位大師級的教授我今天是以監察院秘書長身分來的是是是那我想說憲法的部分你應該也都非常熟悉嗎那是我的專長是是對這我們都知道"},{"start":7263.718,"end":7286.557,"text":"那我是想喔就是說最近我們其實一直就這個國會改革的部分那我們蠻多的爭議那尤其是其實有國會改革有很多的我們這次提的東西其實都是當初民進黨以前提出來過的那這段時間憲法也沒有很大的修正啊那我也不懂說為什麼當年覺得這個是合憲"},{"start":7290.04,"end":7291.001,"text":"我可能提幾個啦"},{"start":7309.861,"end":7330.546,"text":"我請教一下就釋字325號其實它就立法院跟監察院在於在文件調閱等權限上面其實應該也說得蠻清楚的也就是說立法院在法案還有一些預算案的審理的時候它本身就有一個文件調閱的權限我想這個釋字的內容應該"},{"start":7333.507,"end":7350.134,"text":"那個秘書長一定了解我跟您報告一下4至325它的原始由來是因為監察院已經變成不是國會了過去的國會包括國民大會、立法院跟監察院那1994年監察院不再是國會"},{"start":7351.114,"end":7355.358,"text":"所以4-325強調的是說 憲法原來規定95條96條的調查權仍然由監察院來執行但是立法院可以有文件調閱權這是4-325號主要的重點"},{"start":7368.328,"end":7393.261,"text":"那我現在來提一個東西就是說其實我們這一次在談到這個金門番傳案的時候這到底可不可以成立這個調閱小組那其實有一些爭執嘛那我們當然有提出一些講法當然也有一些就是貴黨的委員他也提出說這個其實成立調查小組這個是有問題的但是我想提一下就是說其實2016年的時候那時候我們在處理慶富案"},{"start":7394.261,"end":7415.136,"text":"立法院在處理慶富案的時候當時立法院也有成立過兩個調閱小組那為什麼當時成立調閱小組我記得好像是王定宇委員嘛那我看過發言的也還有莊瑞雄委員那當時這個調閱小組都不會有爭議那今天卻有爭議跑出來這個部分我"},{"start":7416.437,"end":7438.012,"text":"其實我不是很了解我只是在這邊講一下我的想法啦那當然這個跟監察院沒有絕對的關聯性那我再來提一下就是說其實蔡英文政府啊蔡英文在上任的時候她其實提過一個很重要的東西就是她認為說考試院跟監察院應該要廢掉"},{"start":7439.153,"end":7462.527,"text":"那他認為廢考監這個事情是民進黨長期以來的主張那我不知道這個民主黨對這一塊有沒有什麼想法廢考監的部分是民進黨長期以來主張這個我了解那過去第8屆第10屆這個都有提過廢考監的一個主張但是第10屆沒有討論第8屆有討論但是國民黨不同意"},{"start":7467.529,"end":7488.161,"text":"監察院對這件事情 因為修憲是立法院的職權我們監察院對這個沒有評論我必須講一個我之前我在市府的時候其實我對於監察院的調查我自己心裡很有感觸啦尤其非常多的案子其實我們也不懂為什麼監察院的認定會"},{"start":7489.462,"end":7489.722,"text":"獨立請指示"},{"start":7506.426,"end":7522.418,"text":"獨立行使他的職權獨立行使職權依照憲法第7條第5款說得很清楚監察委員要超越黨派不能把黨派放在心中我也是提醒秘書長"},{"start":7523.579,"end":7537.575,"text":"有機會其實要跟各個委員再提一下憲法徵修條文的這個部分絕對要超越黨派就像我剛剛說的我在市府的時候非常有感觸很多東西如果照這樣玩有時候有人就感覺監察院怎麼到最後好像"},{"start":7538.82,"end":7539.22,"text":"接下來我再談一個案子"},{"start":7556.312,"end":7582.814,"text":"跟檢察官有關的那是前幾年的案子那這個案子其實是造成了檢方非常大的反彈我想就是大家所謂的區棍球案區棍球那個案子區棍球案你們應該知道嘛那這個案子呢當時的這個監察委員他對承辦的檢察官彰化地檢的檢察官他前後做了兩次"},{"start":7583.973,"end":7595.11,"text":"他提了好像是提了兩次的彈劾是不是那我現在來提的點就是第一個第一個"},{"start":7597.213,"end":7625.441,"text":"有沒有違反一事不在理就程序上面對同一個案子這個案子他即使你今天照監察院的反駁是說他不是就同一個行為但是他這個東西也是有他一體性的判斷因為一體性的判斷不管是德國不管是我國只要符合一體性的判斷你不能就一個個案的某一個行為A行為跟B行為這兩個檢查同一個檢察官有A行為跟B行為結果你把它分兩次彈劾"},{"start":7626.481,"end":7649.773,"text":"這個在程序上面絕對違反一式不在理的原則我不知道為什麼監察院要去欺負檢察官這是我...我跟...可以跟吳委員報告嗎?我跟吳委員報告齁 這個陳榮祥的案子的確經過監察院的彈劾目前仍然還在懲戒法院當中那你所說的 所提的說為什麼有兩次因為懲戒法院認為有兩個不同的室友"},{"start":7652.028,"end":7662.356,"text":"我必須講啦齁這個他在一體性上面是沒有問題而且是同一個案子我不知道為什麼可以這樣做再來我們都很清楚"},{"start":7663.666,"end":7671.49,"text":"我跟吳委員報告這是依照監察法第8條相關的規定有新事實新證據而且懲戒法院對第一個彈劾案以後他就說其實還有其他的部分你們沒有查到"},{"start":7692.359,"end":7701.011,"text":"所以這個部分我們才會進行第二次新事實新事證的查處那查處完以後我們送懲戒法院現在仍然在懲戒法院當中"},{"start":7701.576,"end":7721.735,"text":"新事實新證據怎麼會是這樣解釋呢秘書長我想你可能再去請教一下法律學者新事實新證據這是法律人都很了解的東西這絕對是原來的案子中沒有出現的東西才叫新事實新證據你自己肉味省卓怎麼叫新事實新證據如果照這樣講新書法260條新事實新證據那就"},{"start":7724.938,"end":7729.02,"text":"委員有兩位一位是律師一位還當過高院的法庭長他們不會不懂法律竟然做出這樣子的認定我說真的我沒有辦法理解而且我很替彰化地檢的那位檢察官叫屈不應該這樣欺負檢察官不應該這樣侵害司法權"},{"start":7753.572,"end":7764.405,"text":"謝謝吳委員我跟吳委員報告這個是懲戒法院的意見所以我們遵從懲戒法院的意見進行第二次的彈劾案那這個部分相關的資料我事後是不是再提供給吳委員"},{"start":7768.676,"end":7783.13,"text":"程序的部分這個不叫做新事實新證據這個根本就是違反一次不在理的原則再來我再提到有關實體的部分也有問題今天司法的救濟有它一定的程序"},{"start":7784.251,"end":7806.391,"text":"對於檢察官的起訴我們後面有審計一審的判決之後有二審的審計救濟對於檢察官的不起訴處分我們可以申請在意都有相關的程序救濟即便案子已經判決確定了也有非常上述跟再審的救濟途徑今天為什麼跑出一個監察院可以就本案實體審理的部分加以去審酌"},{"start":7807.796,"end":7835.075,"text":"他說什麼東西沒有沒收這個根本就是檢察官他在偵查案件的職權有沒有沒收這個怎麼會是監察院可以審查的部分再來應該還起訴或不應該還起訴這也不是監察院的範圍阿我想我沒有講錯吧您是非常您也是法律您父親跟您都是憲法都非常清楚都是法律學者一定很了解我今天在講什麼"},{"start":7836.124,"end":7853.217,"text":"那我我是我當過警察官我還是要捍衛警察官的一些權利監察委員應該是就一些行政的事項上面去做審查比如說他的出勤的狀況他的一些辦案子的一些比如說他的"},{"start":7853.737,"end":7868.587,"text":"有罪率或什麼你們就這個部分去審查我覺得絕對服從大家都不會有意見但是實在不應該去就個案實體的部分去審查如果這樣的話那監察院不是變成最高法院以外的第4個審級嗎"},{"start":7870.851,"end":7886.282,"text":"我跟委員報告這個是委員這個獨立行使之前我不便發表任何評論但是今天委員關心的我會回去轉達給委員知道是我們就這部分我們是完全是就事論事再麻煩秘書長這可不可以在兩個禮拜內給我們一個調查的"},{"start":7893.147,"end":7894.748,"text":"這個部分我兩個禮拜以內提供給委員"},{"start":7920.281,"end":7929.525,"text":"謝謝吳叉緯、謝謝李秘書長主席在這裡先做宣告稍後在翁委員小林發言完畢後休息5分鐘接續請謝委員榮屆進行發言感謝主席這次都接待了"},{"start":7951.224,"end":7952.664,"text":"主席對你非常疼愛"},{"start":7978.644,"end":7995.092,"text":"主席說因為都是普遍憲法的機關：所以你今天是依官協議：那麼來這裡：還不屬於我們請總統來這裡：國情報告：還不可以蒙接：還不可以靠接：我相信你個人不會這樣支權情治法的規定主席跟整棟的棟林可以替你緩解"},{"start":8007.754,"end":8008.114,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":8026.829,"end":8038.693,"text":"所以還不適應啊 譬如說剛才布魂基委員在說 憲法簽署規定人民有流行及承受的自由 對不對這沒不對啊 沒不對嘛 要說這樣就是標示行政的危險喔"},{"start":8043.817,"end":8048.302,"text":"你今天是監察院秘書長你又變成立委員了你對不對 主席我現在這樣評論就是說"},{"start":8064.093,"end":8087.236,"text":"本議及行政委員會主席就是用這個角度．對你特別優待．結果本議的委員在評論行政委員時．你出來應援 這樣就不好了我個人的見解啦好 謝謝小委員的指教阿不然 譬如說 我提供你就是過去你做委員的時候你主張會讀監察院嘛"},{"start":8089.825,"end":8114.055,"text":"那麼在這樣的情形下 我請教你是不是政治人物你也算政治人物 政治人物就是一理貫直 要一四人分檢驗啊 你我都一樣啊所以今天你來到這個會議 我也很無奈 我也很不敢嘛大宰相擁啊 想要整棟的做這個安排 讓你這麼為難"},{"start":8116.752,"end":8120.456,"text":"我沒有這個感覺你過去要把監察院廢掉呢?你今天來這裡做秘書長 你在這裡坐這個位子這個薪水你都不會覺得抱歉抱歉 監察院這裡的董事說抱歉啊 以前我說要把你們廢掉 現在鄉鄉來做你們的董事"},{"start":8138.052,"end":8150.976,"text":"這在我們的臨時．﹑在我們還沒修正以前．﹑都要照會議規定來做．﹑那就是我今天來的目的．﹑你會覺得外景外景不會嗎．﹑都不會．﹑我剛剛依照憲法的職權來解釋．﹑沒有這樣我配合你．﹑因為呢．﹑你們看兩國都簽好了．﹑四月份的憲法徽讀施行．﹑會辯論．﹑"},{"start":8168.021,"end":8172.604,"text":"國家人權委員會被司法院指定為鑑定機關國家人權委員會有立場嗎?我們希望依照目標來達到廢死死刑的目標但是如何的做成這個由委員來討論這不是我可以決定"},{"start":8194.949,"end":8196.47,"text":"這個不是民進黨主張的民進黨的主張啦 沒錯啦"},{"start":8213.487,"end":8218.891,"text":"民進黨到現在怎麼主張我不知道 因為現在我不涉及黨派現在不涉及黨派阿現在民意寬大阿現在就沒什麼要說阿當然是客心阿阿如果這麼關心人權為什麼中國大陸嫁來的人要跟法律國家嫁來的人不一樣適用的條文不一樣對不對 適用的條文不一樣"},{"start":8243.727,"end":8246.971,"text":"你覺得整個委員的成分、組織有需要更加多元嗎?"},{"start":8255.968,"end":8264.415,"text":"現在已經很兜圓,還要再兜圓也可以啊現在已經很兜圓是啊,我們裡面有醫生、醫師、有立委,都有啊難怪你當時還說你不是聽不懂,你如果說我說國語可能你會聽不懂我講台語你應該聽得懂我聽得懂啊,所以我也回答你很清楚啊,現在現在"},{"start":8282.871,"end":8290.754,"text":"監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標 監察院的組成以多元為目標"},{"start":8312.658,"end":8340.001,"text":"辦案這件事我和你討論這件事是沒有意思的,因為辦起來這位各位你調查不到一個案件委員的比率,但是不要說用案件調查來給你看我來說事實啦譬如說食品安全這個東西蘇丹鴻也好,包括很重要你過去已經有去查的喔你查查的結果你還在"},{"start":8341.739,"end":8354.725,"text":"領委說 監察這個 管理食品安全的機關是不是有失靈我坦白告訴你 這不用去查嘛這還可以查 看報紙也知道對不對 今年的12月11日那個食油署就已經要求 邊境對中國大陸進口的這個"},{"start":8366.021,"end":8372.587,"text":"一百%都要逐批審查,逐批逐批都要檢驗結果犯罪又一大堆進來,這牽連就是有問題嘛所以你現在說要再查這個我認為沒必要,比較重要的是在你來監察院以前,2002年七月"},{"start":8390.041,"end":8404.574,"text":"監察院用一段時間去調查所謂的食品雲食品雲呢,會缺失就對了你不知道我看過這個報告嗎?你覺得嗎?那你給我說明一下就是說你們當機時,調查就有很多角色"},{"start":8413.257,"end":8419.301,"text":"那麼經過這兩天來尤其現在還有問題發生食品安全的問題例如我跟你說這是很危險嘛你們過去就調查有這些問題啊結果這兩天來你們有去檢討整個食品營的預測包括它的預警包括它還有什麼不正確的地方你們去調查過了喔"},{"start":8436.934,"end":8437.414,"text":"我請教你,你的態度是怎麼樣?"},{"start":8464.81,"end":8467.394,"text":"你查了他有這麼一個缺失他有這麼一個缺失啊現在查了這麼一個大項的事情出來這樣你過去那一宗的調查就等於白費了嘛"},{"start":8476.064,"end":8484.211,"text":"所以我剛才有說明我們還在持續追蹤當中因為不是我們查了就算了我們就再追蹤我就是說你們沒有追蹤嘛今天如果繼續有追蹤有針對他的課程有跟他知情他就會三成有格好過有有格好過今天你這麼嚇唬就不太好當我請教你啦海關退運了後這個三品有可能沒有退運"},{"start":8504.915,"end":8509.476,"text":"我請教你你過去調查的案件有這樣嗎 這樣說快點不是啦 你過去調查的所有發掘食品發掘進口我沒有清澈你沒有清澈 那裡面有人清澈嗎請說明一下"},{"start":8531.278,"end":8531.919,"text":"好啦 秘書長 很好啦"},{"start":8561.121,"end":8566.685,"text":"好,謝謝謝委員：也謝謝李秘書長。接下來由翁委員小玲發言主席,有請秘書長好,有請李秘書長"},{"start":8586.639,"end":8612.825,"text":"秘書長好先前已經好幾個委員都有提到就是社會大眾現在在討論到底要不要廢除監察院的事情那麼是不是可以再請您再重申一下您的立場您作為監察院的秘書長您怎麼樣回應就是社會現在對於要廢除考監主要是廢除監察院的這個議題"},{"start":8614.505,"end":8637.822,"text":"備處考監這件事情監察院立場從頭到尾非常一致就是在憲法沒有修正之前我們依照憲法賦予的權責我們來執行至於修憲的部分是屬於立法院的權限不是監察院的權限好 那麼也就是說您認為在監察您擔任監察院秘書長這些年您認為監察院有扮演什麼樣的功能嗎他有發揮什麼樣的"},{"start":8638.882,"end":8640.163,"text":"您覺得您做這樣的事情有意義嗎?"},{"start":8666.354,"end":8686.959,"text":"是很重要的職責吧協助任何憲政機關發揮他的功能我認為都有意義這個也是我的工作監察院跟立法院在沒有修憲之前其實即便修憲之後其實他們都是代表像是西方民主國家的國會功能他們具有這樣子的國會功能他是憲政機關"},{"start":8690.066,"end":8709.589,"text":"立法院跟監察院應該是要互相合作相輔相成立法院他是在事前對於法律他執行他的立法權利然後制定規範那麼監察院很重要的是在多處或是去查核"},{"start":8710.289,"end":8716.453,"text":"行政機關有沒有遵守法律所以我個人認為監察院是非常重要的我也不認為監察院有被廢除的必要所以我也很期待監察院其實能夠站出來捍衛你們的職權"},{"start":8727.961,"end":8728.381,"text":"這個由立法院來討論"},{"start":8752.702,"end":8766.464,"text":"因為國家人權委員會組織法也是通過立法院的討論過好 那現在我看了你們這次所提出來的立法計畫你們希望在監察法裡面再多一個專章將國家人權委員會法制化"},{"start":8767.439,"end":8788.206,"text":"這個部分不是法制化的問題而是我們的職權行使我們必須要有一個職權行使的相關依據然後依照立法院過去的附帶決議希望我們用監察法的方式送進來立法院審查那我們在第10屆有這樣的動作但是第10屆沒有順利的通過沒有完成刪讀所以這一屆我們會再重新討論再送到立法院來"},{"start":8789.026,"end":8805.945,"text":"對於國家人權委員會他的組織是否與現在其他的既有的機關可能有跌床架屋是不是有存在國家人權委員會的必要及他的功能如何我相信未來立法院這邊會有很多的討論"},{"start":8809.769,"end":8822.134,"text":"維護人權不只是國家人權委員會．包含司法院．包含立法院．各個機關都在做．有沒有必要再去．設置一個軍委員會．以及建立他的職權實施法我可以跟您說明一下嗎這在2019討論國家人權委員會組織法的時候．就有充分的討論那最主要要成立獨立的所謂的人權機關．是因為我們有簽巴黎原則那就是這個公約兩公約的部分臺灣是一個簽署國"},{"start":8839.001,"end":8841.844,"text":"臺灣就應該照這樣來做所以有必要成立一個獨立的人權機關這就是設在監察院的理由"},{"start":8849.42,"end":8875.275,"text":"如果說是國家人權委員會是這麼重視人權他是一個獨立的機關他是獨立於行政獨立於司法各方面的這個其他的行政機關他發揮他的職權那請問為什麼大家普遍對於國家人權委員會並沒有好好的去捍衛去維護我們現在談的諸種的最近所發生的許多的人權問題就以"},{"start":8878.72,"end":8895.106,"text":"陸配涉及縮短年限的問題以及剛剛前面幾個委員有談到的進團令的問題其他都是涉及到人民的遷徙自由還有就是作為一個已經叫到臺灣來的陸配他在臺灣的居留的這個權利難道這個部分跟人權無關嗎國家人權委員會有站在超然的這個立場去"},{"start":8905.964,"end":8915.845,"text":"．"},{"start":8916.161,"end":8920.485,"text":"來我跟公務員報告這兩個概念第一個堅持各種階級各種種族貧富都一律平等這是國家人權委員會堅持的但是您剛剛提到的陸配跟外配我剛剛已經說明過了它的適用法律不同無法把它同列來比較因為一個適用的是兩岸人民關係條例一個是所謂的移民法這個都不一樣所以要不要放棄國籍就有差別"},{"start":8942.865,"end":8970.696,"text":"如果按照您的邏輯其實我們要國家人權委員會做什麼我們直接適用現在的法律行政機關執行就可以了就完全按照行政機關的意思做那麼我們要一個國家人權委員會有什麼意義不好意思我再來想要談的就是說國家人權委員會的定位如果他是一個超然獨立他必須要有更高的這個制高點去看待"},{"start":8971.476,"end":8972.116,"text":"現在接下來我要問另外一個問題"},{"start":8997.731,"end":9011.063,"text":"其實在這些年來大家對於就是監察院到底有沒有能夠善盡他就是發揮他的職權對於我們的行政機關進行嚴格的這個監督"},{"start":9015.629,"end":9038.352,"text":"其實大家這個社會上面都認為監察院好像看起來沒有有太多的作為剛剛羅志強委員其實也有提到我們監察院的近年來的這個所做的彈劾案等等其實這個線數是很低尤其是針對於部會首長的彈劾案似乎也只有六七件的樣子但是"},{"start":9039.393,"end":9059.861,"text":"從疫情以來到現在其實我們看到很多部會這個首長其實他們都做了一些錯誤的政策那機關的在很多執行的部分其實有些問題但是看起來監察院並沒有主動的積極的去了解就算是有也都是重新發落我們期待的是監察院他是一個"},{"start":9060.501,"end":9062.642,"text":"我跟您報告這監察院的重點是查公務員有沒有違法失職還包含行政機關有沒有違法有沒有違法他基本上是糾正"},{"start":9086.227,"end":9100.161,"text":"不只是公務員還包含行政機關所以說談判案之外還有糾正 糾正案也很少我剛才告訴你糾正案不少喔 糾正案有200多案喔 不少喔所以我剛才說明的很清楚 監察院依照憲法的規定我們行使我們的職權那至於滿不滿意 那是委員個人的評斷 這個我們沒有意見"},{"start":9106.627,"end":9132.107,"text":"我是代表背後眾多的民意所以你這個監察院來表示的意見另外還有就是你們這次談到你們的這個立法計畫是個人認為其實最應該立法就是將監察委員行為法具體的落實比照像是立法院立法委員行為法一樣你們現在只是弄一個什麼監察委員的自律規範我們沒有監察委員行為法"},{"start":9135.783,"end":9163.492,"text":"是所以我認為這是應該你們要積極提出的修法案當然就是說你們不提我也可以來提如果說是就監察院你們現在要提立法計畫那看一下陽光法案也不是你們的主責什麼的話我倒是建議你們回去可以好好思考一下是不是應該要將你們的立法委員的自律規範提升他的法律位階比照像是立法委員行為法一樣"},{"start":9165.413,"end":9192.826,"text":"這個讓他成為一個具體可行而且真的對於約束那些這個違法而且這個不適格的監察委員可以有更具體的約束我不知道不適格的監察委員怎麼樣定義那我們現在有監察委員自律規範我們有自律規範是就自律規範的法律未接不夠那麼他的懲處也不夠這是本席給你們的建議"},{"start":9194.09,"end":9195.991,"text":"謝謝李秘書長因為先前已經做過宣告現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":9527.264,"end":9530.029,"text":"好,現在繼續開會,請吳委員、施堯進行訊答。謝主席,有請李俊逸秘書長。"},{"start":9544.009,"end":9564.267,"text":"吳委員好早安大家辛苦了我真的是剛剛聆聽了前一位委員的質詢真是每天驚懼不斷驚嚇人的驚這個翁委員在上任到現在他除了拋出立法院有對於行政院行政官員的任免權"},{"start":9565.868,"end":9586.649,"text":"之外剛剛我又赫然聆聽了他的質詢他說他想要定定也要求監察院是不是來針對監察委員的事任與否要來定定監察委員行為法翁委員顯然把自己當作五院的糾察隊"},{"start":9588.069,"end":9612.636,"text":"他顯然真的把立法委員的權力無上限的擴大我想這樣一個超越憲法的發言也逾越了各個憲政機關的權力分立的原則秘書長你可不可以再說一下你是否同意一個立委可以針對監察委員定行違法其實我先說啦"},{"start":9614.377,"end":9622.326,"text":"應當請國民黨的委員好好去把立法委員行為法好好去思考如何精進立法委員的問政專業問政水平自己從自己問政的課則"},{"start":9626.963,"end":9651.552,"text":"就責對自己的強化提升素質開始來秘書長給您一點時間委員這個部分對任何立法委員的發言跟批評我們都沒有意見也沒有評論那我就我的職權範圍我來報告我今天是來做立法報告這是我們職權新司法71條的規定那我希望大家問的也集中在我們報告所提出來的立法計畫"},{"start":9652.832,"end":9671.982,"text":"至於其他相關的有關行政院的缺失或是什麼我只能告訴大家說這個案子我們有沒有在查其他部分我不便表示意見了解收到謝謝秘書長的說明我想我們非常成熟的公民社會的公民在聆聽直播的這些朋友們都非常能夠清楚的判斷"},{"start":9673.604,"end":9678.989,"text":"一個立法委員是否適合提出這樣逾越憲法的主張?"},{"start":9678.989,"end":9688.619,"text":"孰可忍,孰不可忍?我認為委員之間還是要有所自制跟自律喔那進入我今天的主題,我有兩個主題我很快速的跟您分享"},{"start":9689.279,"end":9702.616,"text":"一個就是我們如何在監察院的人權會的架構之下來推動全方位的人權主流化另外一個就是我個人在研議跟推動中的反歧視法或是平等法的立法這也畢竟跟人權事項相關"},{"start":9705.06,"end":9709.925,"text":"我們依據巴黎原則我們能夠成立一個獨立的人權機構而且他具備組織預算人事跟運作上的獨立那有明確的管轄權跟充分的權力更重要的是為人民所在"},{"start":9719.977,"end":9722.92,"text":"監察院2020年成立的人權會而行政院也在2022年提出台灣的第一本國家人權行動計畫這都是台灣的人權賣大步監察院的同仁人權會大家辛苦了下頁"},{"start":9738.857,"end":9762.587,"text":"那早上您回答了很多委員的槌尋 針對監察法的修正案確實當初立法院在審議我們的人權會組織法的時候做成了決議希望是以人權專章在監察法入法而不是採行一個作用法用一個職權行使法的方式那因為現在就是你們即將提出監察法人權專章的"},{"start":9764.749,"end":9771.134,"text":"關鍵時刻我提出分享我的觀點如何讓人權主流化能夠貫注在你未來提出來的法案"},{"start":9772.853,"end":9795.73,"text":"那我想台灣對於議題主流化是非常有經驗的從性別主流化到族群主流化到文化主流化我們從組織面都有對應的機構在法制面都有相關的法規乃至於政策面可以去落實一個不論誰執政都可以可長可久的相關的議題主流化我想這是一個對的思維"},{"start":9798.132,"end":9815.964,"text":"那所以我們在性別在族群還有本人投入很多的文化主流化裡頭我們成立了行政院的文化匯報我們讓部部都是文化部甚至我們也千辛萬苦來推出回應了文化界二三十年來的倡議成立了文化基本法"},{"start":9816.644,"end":9843.674,"text":"成為我們文化的憲法而本席目前也在進行推動青年主流化在各個部會的施政進一步的要推動青年基本法目前行政院也在研議當中那就是我個人拋出來的意見不代表這一定是可行的但我想就教於秘書長如果為了落實人權主流化因為我們現在同步在進行監察法的人權專章那如果是用一個人權基本法有一個憲法"},{"start":9844.674,"end":9848.298,"text":"高效率的基本法您認為可行嗎?這只是意見分享"},{"start":9859.531,"end":9860.532,"text":"好我了解謝謝秘書長的意見分享我要再澄清我不是我個人就"},{"start":9885.888,"end":9912.502,"text":"主張要有人權基本法我只是在拋出這樣一題我珍惜今天可以跟您對話的機會如何落實人權主流化那就非常期待未來我們提出來的人權專章如何能夠在院計之間在部會之間能夠真的做到這樣的進步人權的思維人權專章最重要是希望讓我們人權會的職權行使有一個依據那我們希望在這個會期想辦法把它送過來"},{"start":9913.543,"end":9918.663,"text":"我未來會來支持我們進一步再來探究那下一頁"},{"start":9920.227,"end":9948.518,"text":"人權政策到底誰是領頭羊這也是我對於人權會的組織我一直存有很大的疑惑人權會到底是上位機關它是整合的機構還是它本身也承擔了部分的執行其實人權會一年好像一億三左右的預算一億二左右那我們現在散列在院紀之間行政院的人權轉型正義處還有各部會都在做人權工作"},{"start":9949.758,"end":9971.176,"text":"總統府有原轉會：中研院也在做人權相關的學術研究：包括轉型正義研究本期一直在督促他們強化：國師館也在做人權的很多策展文件的這個研究那當然司法院跟考試院基於培育具有人權思維的：文官跟司法人員他也承擔了相當的責任"},{"start":9972.777,"end":9993.034,"text":"但依我們行政院的國家人權行動計畫裡頭 寫得很清楚國家人權委員會對行政部門所做成的人權事項 有相關建議報告意見你們做出來 就是監察院的人權委員會做出來的 各部會都要遵守落實所以 如果這樣解讀 你們是上位機關囉"},{"start":9994.834,"end":10016.568,"text":"依照現在人權委員會組織法的規定我們主要進行的部分是監督跟指導就是說如何讓他推動那實際的執行面應該是在行政院的人權處那至於這樣的設計到底合不合適這其實過去在國家人權委員會成立的時候就討論過因為最大的原則是要成立一個"},{"start":10017.048,"end":10020.371,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得還是要把組織定位再思考清楚一點至少我本席本人此時此刻站在這裡我雖然是司法法制委員會的新生但我一直對於這樣的定位本身職能的發揮到底能不能夠到位"},{"start":10045.209,"end":10071.04,"text":"我覺得還是可以思考沒有問題我們後續還有很長遠的機會可以來探究但無論如何監督的成效要出來確實在你們組織法裡頭不外乎是監督協助提建議等等這樣子的一個部分好那因為時間有限我其實最怕是要跟您講我長期在教育部門文化部門還有中研院的監督我過去在教文委員會我認為人權來下一頁下一頁"},{"start":10074.742,"end":10094.477,"text":"在下一頁這有國際經驗德國跟波蘭我就不說了下一頁其實就本席在促轉條例的修法裡頭我擴大了面向把過去的促轉基金能夠用在長照社福之外本席最focus的其實是要強化人權教育跟文化推廣"},{"start":10095.678,"end":10118.225,"text":"所以我下面沒有時間來跟您分享我認為我也提醒下一頁監察院對於文化部的不易移植立法文化遺產體驗教育的深化教育部門的人權教育向下扎根乃至於中研院的鼓勵轉型正義跟人權學術研究的監督跟協助要更"},{"start":10120.126,"end":10125.249,"text":"我目前看到的這相對是還沒有做到非常深入"},{"start":10149.645,"end":10157.15,"text":"我們需要一部反歧視法因為讓台灣在國際所簽訂的這麼多的人權條約國內法化台灣需要一部反歧視法也是落實聯合國SDGS的項目當中的減少不平等人與人之間的不平等要被消滅國與國之間的不平等更應當被打破"},{"start":10177.742,"end":10178.303,"text":"所以呢,下一頁"},{"start":10194.435,"end":10218.073,"text":"現在的反歧視法散列在7部法規﹖法律欠缺﹖法一致性﹖好下一頁所以我借盡了國際的經驗加拿大德國英國瑞典乃至於鄰近國家日本都有一個專法在進行反歧視法或者是稱之為平等法的一個單一專法而且它的位階是高的下一頁"},{"start":10218.894,"end":10220.175,"text":"現在內政部在研議一個以族群反歧視為主的平等法"},{"start":10236.83,"end":10259.796,"text":"內政部在做但法務部同時我那天也質詢了我們的這個法務部長法務部正在研議是一個專法來全方位來進行反歧視法而法務部的平等法的這個裡頭組織裡頭監督機關就是國家人權委員會所以我想就法學專業您雖然不是法律人但在我心目中李俊逸就是最棒的法律專家"},{"start":10261.776,"end":10282.302,"text":"對於行政院人權處對於法務部對於內政部同步在針對歧視相關的法規在進行研議的同時人權會的意見是如何跟吳委員報告現在我的理解是行政院有在推動這個反歧視法或稱為平等法的一個立法目前是族群"},{"start":10282.822,"end":10283.302,"text":"先秘書長先主席多給我時間謝謝"},{"start":10309.914,"end":10337.292,"text":"謝謝吳委員謝謝李秘書長接下來有請鄭委員天才發言時間5分鐘主席各位委員有請這個秘書長鄭委員好秘書長好這個反族群歧視法"},{"start":10338.376,"end":10354.89,"text":"本席在第9屆第10屆都提出來了但是不被接受了而我認為啊台灣的平等相關的法律兩性平等什麼都有了如果還要族群平等法"},{"start":10356.347,"end":10371.323,"text":"臺灣我認為族群基本上還有有平等只不過是要消滅這個族群的歧視反族群歧視法這個才是正辦這給你做參考因為你要寫報告提意見不是寫報告提意見好我們看這個"},{"start":10375.951,"end":10398.85,"text":"77年5月15號77年按照促進轉型正義條例的規定77年民國77年是威權統治時期威權統治時期退府會主任委員習立農這個同意這個韓府內政部的吳伯雄部長"},{"start":10399.875,"end":10422.566,"text":"同意將現未利用土地徹銷撥用歸還而且還承諾今後市安置狀況再有不惜公務利用之土地當繼續辦理徹銷撥用這是依法行政依什麼法呢第一個就是國軍退儲役官兵輔導條例這個條例規定很清楚"},{"start":10426.229,"end":10449.52,"text":"防衛輔導退儲役官兵．就業所稀之土地．得依法撥用好 我們退伍會沒有做就業使用然後去出租自稱為委託經營其實就是出租了收起利益違反第一個剛剛講退伍會的條例"},{"start":10452.861,"end":10470.556,"text":"第二違反國有財產法第39條因為非公用財產經過撥用有下列情形之一就應該撤銷撥用第一個用途廢紙他廢紙他沒有做就業使用"},{"start":10471.961,"end":10498.695,"text":"編根原定用途他去做出租出租給民間企業對不對編根原定用途第三個上工收益還收了租金出租給民間企業收租金違反了三個條款在這樣一個情形之下這個我也請財政部財政部也發文了"},{"start":10500.15,"end":10525.378,"text":"他不理不睬照理財政部應該主動啊因為按照國有財政法他應該主動啊然後他這邊寫說為了安置基金安置基金哪是用這個呢他本來就有另外一個安置基金的一個用途啊管理辦法多有啊他才不是從這裡根本就是答非所問所以退府會"},{"start":10529.69,"end":10537.076,"text":"現收在原住民族一直都在使用的土地"},{"start":10541.522,"end":10568.708,"text":"但是被撥為這個退會之用那事實上他們因為早期有在做就業之用後來就沒有所以原住民又回來繼續做像這樣的土地我們只不過是希望依法行政但是到現在毫無結果違反了三個法律第一個違反原住民主基本法因為政府承認原住民主土地的權利"},{"start":10569.956,"end":10597.423,"text":"違反退會條例違反國有財源法如果按照剛才這個這個洗禮農主委啊退會洗禮農主委今後今後是安置狀況若再有不惜公務利用之土地定當繼續辦理撤交不用就原住民族而言啊"},{"start":10598.744,"end":10625.746,"text":"這對我們的承諾對原住民的承諾明法明法所以也違反明法所以在這樣的情形之下這個本席也曾經我再講一次萬一前統治時期洗利農都可以依法廢紙撥用現今民主憲政的時期千萬不能做到"},{"start":10627.125,"end":10634.227,"text":"我跟委員報告這個案件已經在去年的9月26號有幾位委員立案調查現在在調查中那麼久那很容易啊"},{"start":10657.557,"end":10659.278,"text":"這個部份正在調查中,我不辯表示意見"},{"start":10684.206,"end":10685.329,"text":"我可以轉達說這個已經太久了"},{"start":10690.962,"end":10692.083,"text":"接下來有請楊委員 瓊英發言"},{"start":10720.52,"end":10723.164,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言想邀請秘書長邀請李秘書長"},{"start":10730.854,"end":10751.551,"text":"秘書長你應該是很有power所以當然秘書長可能可以領軍有一些作為所以本席要跟你討論目前最夯的蘇丹紅辣椒原料的食安問題那本席看到在監察院的新聞稿裡頭也提出了已有監察委員申請自動調查"},{"start":10755.113,"end":10776.391,"text":"施安辦在上個禮拜五行政院記者會也表示蘇丹紅跟咖啡跟茶的致癌風險是同等級呼籲民眾不要太緊張這個說法讓外界讓民眾等於是炸鍋蘇丹紅所造成的施安風暴到底"},{"start":10777.071,"end":10801.016,"text":"有什麼可以讓民眾吃得安心民眾現在非常的焦慮所以請教秘書長目前對於主管機關對食品業者的監督控管機制是不是真的失靈了民眾尤其我們這些媽媽說我到哪裡吃我都不放心我真的是摻了一個這個辣椒我都會緊張在這樣的情況之下"},{"start":10803.776,"end":10829.798,"text":"報告如果出來對這個國安的國人的這個食品安全呢他消費環境他當然會有很重大的一個影響所以本期要請教監察院你的後續作為到底是什麼呢因為這已經嚴重的影響到整個民眾新聞媒體每一天都在報而且連環報甚至地點甚至這個整個都有脈動"},{"start":10831.019,"end":10831.98,"text":"蘇丹紅的案子目前已經立案調查"},{"start":10847.392,"end":10863.145,"text":"那至於說前面的有關食安的部分我剛才已經說明過了其實有關食安的部分我們查過食品評查過食品安全匯報查過食安五環這些都有相關的規定跟報告的結論那報告的結論都請行政院在積極改善當中"},{"start":10864.226,"end":10864.606,"text":"他們多久會提來?"},{"start":10890.183,"end":10904.213,"text":"因為現在所有的民眾都還是很疑慮你知道那他們多久會提來他如果不提呢你有什麼作為呢這個要看委員的調查的內容這些都會列為委員的調查內容之中"},{"start":10905.885,"end":10906.185,"text":"這件事2024年"},{"start":10922.15,"end":10924.931,"text":"委員會決議的要調查的110案件你院派調查是12件在這樣情況之下如果扣除政府院長扣除政府院長那其餘我們還有27位的監委"},{"start":10951.317,"end":10977.156,"text":"那一個人這些案件那是調查不到一案那監察院提出的彈劾、糾舉、糾正案的這個基礎這是必要的也授予這個權責但是我們看到秘書長像如果剛剛已經引起民眾﹐廣泛性的疑慮這麼久到現在那麼我們只有"},{"start":10978.697,"end":11000.499,"text":"請行政院來改善之那也不知有沒有約束什麼時候他要提回來我們的後續究竟要怎麼樣去督導所以有人質疑喔那我們要這麼多監委幹什麼呢是不是跟考試院一樣必須要減少人數當然本席也不希望因為數量"},{"start":11008.408,"end":11016.557,"text":"監察院是人民最高的一個監督單位應該是有牙齒的老虎而不是只有改善之"},{"start":11018.038,"end":11034.769,"text":"這樣對人民是不公平的,是不公平的,所以本席要請教,你要怎麼樣去提升這些的績效?是,我跟央委員報告,我剛剛已經說明很清楚了,我們不能以案件數來看那如果要用案件數來看,其實我們有彈劾、糾舉、糾正跟調查報告,還有含情各機關改善"},{"start":11038.251,"end":11066.949,"text":"函請各機關改善之後我們甚至可以用質問就是回來再報告他的相關的情形然後看質問滿不滿意不滿意的話我們還可以進行後續的動作那這個是第一個部分第二個部分剛剛提到監察委員人數的減少監察委員的人數是寫在憲法裡面考試院是寫在考試院組織法裡面所以他的層次不同過去修考試院組織法是用考試院組織法來修所以人數可以下降監察院恐怕要修憲"},{"start":11068.13,"end":11090.389,"text":"怎麼這個方式 林氏秘書長外界有這個質疑表示他認為成效是不彰的是有所疑慮的 所以我們要提出來至於哪一種方式 總是有方法只是我們人民所需要的是真正能夠監督就誠如你剛才說的我們監察院到目前為止 扮演這個角色超過90年"},{"start":11091.73,"end":11111.583,"text":"但是有人質疑是沒有牙齒的老虎你剛才說的我們即使通過彈劾案那你要發動的制裁的權限你到最後你到最後是沒有懲戒權那同時要不要制裁制裁的內容到底是如何監察院你可以決定嗎那接下來我們還要問"},{"start":11113.184,"end":11142.391,"text":"即使對行政部門機關所通過的糾正案那你能夠請他們要注意要改善所以本席希望的是說當你們依照目前的權限在做似乎人民認為是不足的不足的有兩個方式也就是你們的權力不夠第二個最重要在整個過程當中你可以怎樣去調整你的這個角度這是本席今天跟你討論我們必須要了解的"},{"start":11143.652,"end":11153.404,"text":"謝謝楊委員我很快跟楊委員說明一下懲戒權的權利是在司法院的懲戒法院不在監察院當然所以本席告訴你你這個也沒有那個沒有難怪人家說你是沒有牙齒"},{"start":11157.91,"end":11158.711,"text":"所以在整個流程本席也要求你們去討論"},{"start":11178.368,"end":11206.677,"text":"因為人民對於你們的授權呢因為在人民所需要一個結論人民所需要的是能夠有效能那整個效能產生不出的時候在整個制度結構裡頭也必須去討論才能夠真正得到民眾所需我本身也不希望讓人家說監察院是一個沒有牙齒的老虎那人民有疑慮"},{"start":11207.95,"end":11236.616,"text":"我們國家任何一個機關當然要好好的去檢討讓我們的民眾能夠沒有疑慮安定生活嘛對不對好謝謝楊委員的結論好謝謝李秘書長好那接下來呢有請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭委員不在有請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在有請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在有請高金樹梅委員高金樹梅高金樹梅委員不在有請蔡宇委員蔡宇蔡宇委員不在"},{"start":11237.236,"end":11253.809,"text":"好 那麼所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員質詢時 要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者 請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會好 那本次會議到此結束 現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}