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碧琳：跟委員報告，11月4號我們接獲訊息之後，有跟家屬聯繫，家屬跟我們強調要低調處理，所以一直是在處理這個當事人的狀況。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以勞動部當時還不清楚……"],["姜處長碧琳：我們已經都有掌握。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，你是什麼時候知道這件事的？"],["何部長佩珊：我11月4號就知道了。"],["黃委員秀芳：當天就知道？"],["何部長佩珊：當然，當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我是看你們的報告上這樣寫的，說勞動部是11月8號透過社群媒體才知道這件事……"],["何部長佩珊：不是，我……"],["黃委員秀芳：我才會覺得很驚訝，怎麼會是這樣！"],["何部長佩珊：不是，應該是那個敘述是從11月8號社群媒體發文開始敘述起，就是11月8號社群媒體上有發文，然後我們針對這個事情開始去進行了解。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以11月4號事情發生的時候，你們完全沒有去了解為什麼這個同仁會選擇了斷自己？"],["何部長佩珊：那時候我們是讓北分署跟勞發署去處理……"],["黃委員秀芳：自己去調查？"],["何部長佩珊：因為在跟家屬接觸的過程中，家屬希望低調，所以那時候應該都有進行溝通。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，剛剛也有很多委員特別提到，就是今年2月份基層都已經陳情了，而王次長也約談北分署分署長，聽說是喝咖啡聊這件事，但後續好像就不了了之，也沒有做什麼樣的處理，甚至部長還說勞動部這邊完全沒有這樣一個案件存在，對不對？是事情發生之後……"],["何部長佩珊：對，我進行了解，發現部裡沒有這樣的紀錄。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果是這樣的話，確實如剛剛委員講的，末梢神經真的是出問題欸！基層同仁都已經陳情了，你覺得為什麼會沒有列案？"],["何部長佩珊：因為當時陳情的對象是王安邦次長，為什麼王安邦次長沒有反映，然後列案，這我不了解，因為當時不是我。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得很誇張，既然基層都已經陳情，然後次長也找這個北分署署長來談，談完之後沒有處理也就罷了，這個分署長還要找出是誰洩密！這件事情發生之後，我非常希望勞動部，甚至其他部會也一樣，真的要建立一個基層員工、基層同仁的陳情管道，要有一個機制，而不是陳情之後，你又交給當事人去處理這件事，部長，如果是你的話，你覺得這樣妥當嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然不妥當。"],["黃委員秀芳：未來如果還有這樣的事情發生，你們要怎麼處理？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對也是徹查，對，要處分。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們現在有建立相關機制了嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你是指對這個……"],["黃委員秀芳：如果基層的員工、基層的同仁……"],["何部長佩珊：如果有反映、有申訴，然後壓案、吃案，是嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：有反映、有申訴、有陳情，你們後續處理應該有一個機制吧？"],["何部長佩珊：如果基層同仁有申訴的話，當然，就是循員工防護小組的管道，我們會進行調查，調查之後，再看要如何處理，這個其實本來就有機制。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果有機制，怎麼會變成是次長處理，次長約談分署長後，分署長後續再來找是誰洩密，最後就不了了之？不是這樣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為這不是正式的，主要是次長當時沒有列案，我也不知道當時為什麼沒有列案，這樣當然就無從處理啊！所以這也是一個大問題，沒有錯，可是當時就是沒有列案，要詢問當事人才知道為什麼當時沒有列案。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以本席覺得未來這也是要檢討的方向啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外本席想請教，剛剛也有委員特別提到，北分署長和許次長以前是同事嘛！你們成立這個調查小組，很多小組成員和北分署長的關係可能也不錯，如果你們成立這樣的調查小組進行調查，其實基層也有很多人反映，這樣的調查結果，很多人覺得和事實可能有一些出入，所以本席也要請部長針對這樣的調查小組進行了解，也許你們成立調查小組時，不知道他們和當事人是什麼樣的關係，如果知道，本席覺得你們應該也會調整。"],["何部長佩珊：對，委員，我們所有政務官都會秉公辦理。至於避嫌，當然，這也是為了利益迴避，我當時請許傳盛次長處理，雖然許傳盛次長和謝分署長是舊識，可是他們並沒有直接的聯繫啦！而且許傳盛次長本身就督導勞發署，只有他才了解這個體系的問題，這也是為什麼我會請他召集的原因，體制上也是必須如此，我總不能越過他請別的次長去召集調查，這是我的困難，請您諒解。","當然，後來網路上爆料，認為許傳盛次長和謝分署長是舊識，可是說真的，就我的認知，我不認為許次長是一位會徇私的人啦！他也是滿公正、滿大公無私的，所以他才有資格來當我們的次長嘛！"],["黃委員秀芳：所以部長，對這件事，本席覺得你們從上到下確實要好好檢討，如果說一個員工……"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果一個同仁長期受到這樣的對待，本席剛剛看了，你們這個單位只有一位具有公務人員身分，其他都是承攬人員嘛！如果是這樣的話，剛剛本席有聽到部長說到，確實要從根本去做一些改進啦！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果是這樣的話，全部的壓力都在這個公務人員身上啦！本席不知道你們目前有多少業務是這樣的狀況，就是大部分都是承攬，全部外包出去。你們有做統計嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！勞發署這個狀況很嚴重。請署長回答，好不好？"],["蔡署長孟良：發展署的業務真的非常龐雜，我們現在編制的人力，就是正式的公務員，大概只有七百多位，但我們的約用人員，就是臨時人員大概一千多位，至於其他的，我們現在有將近2,000位的承攬人力。也就是說，每4位員工當中，只有一位是正式公務員，其實業務和我們人力的編制結構落差非常大，這部分我們覺得也必須檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：本席覺得這個問題確實要從根本好好地檢討啦！可能也要向行政院爭取，這麼重要的工作，但是每4位當中只有一位是公務人員，其他可能是承攬的。"],["何部長佩珊：是，非常誇張啦！而且根據法規，每一個分署都應該有一個正式的資安人員，結果這一位離開的同仁，他還是勞發署派來兼任的，並不是北分署正式的編制喔！顯然我們每一個分署都缺乏一位正式的資安人員。可是我們的資安業務量非常龐大，因為這兩、三年來的業務非常多，還包括很多外部會的要求，這些都是累積的啦！是非常累積性的……"],["黃委員秀芳：確實。本席也覺得勞發署如同剛剛署長說的，業務非常龐大，不只是勞動部勞發署，其他單位應該也都是類似這樣的狀況。接下來是不是可以請人事單位？今天有列席嗎？今天沒有行政院的單位列席？"],["主席：銓敘部和人事行政總處啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：人事行政總處是不是可以針對所有公務體系、公務機關，各單位的人力是公務人員或者承攬，你們有去統計嗎？到底有多少單位確實有人力需求，可是因為人力不足，所以需要用承攬或約聘僱的方式？"],["彭科長妤蓁：首先我還是要說一下，我們要運用哪一種人力類型，其實是要看他的工作內容，還有指揮監督的必要性。我們當然理解，發展署目前的人力結構有三種，比如職員、約用或是承攬人力，相信他們應該都是基於工作需要去選擇人力類型，所以是不是也要了解一下，發展署現在在承攬人力方面，大概都是請他們做什麼樣的工作？"],["黃委員秀芳：承攬的人員，其實你也不能賦予他很大的責任。"],["彭科長妤蓁：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：對啊！所以本席覺得真的要從根本解決。今天會發生這樣的事情，第一個，也許工作量確實非常大，再來就是職場霸凌。本席也同意勞動部的說法，真的要從根本解決，如果今天不從根本解決，本席覺得還是會有類似狀況發生。本席希望人事行政總處也要確實反映，所有的公務單位，如果真的需要正式的公務人員，你們真的就要編制，而不是用承攬人力。如果是承攬，剛剛說過，在這個機關、這個單位，這個資訊單位只有一位正式的公務人員，其他都是承攬人員，把所有壓力都放在這個正式的公務人員身上，本席覺得真的非常不合適，所有人事體系應該做一個總體檢，好不好？"],["彭科長妤蓁：是。其實發展署本身是有資訊室的，就我們的了解，但是目前各分署沒有資訊單位，按照發展署的組織法規，看起來他們的資訊業務應該都是偏向上集中到三級的發展署，所以這一塊還是要看發展署的作為，針對這件事情去檢討他們內部的狀況，比如他們的資源配置和人力配置，我們會積極給予協助。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。對於這件事情，本席相信很多人覺得不捨，也希望透過這件事情，真的要好好的從根本檢討，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員。","請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}