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但是你們可以去協調啊"},{"start":228.383,"end":250.448,"text":"那個央行總裁楊金榮說這個川普上任之後可能他會建議政府加強對美國的投資跟採購投資項目當然川普就希望就是半導體嘛這是先進製程的部分那當然我們採購的部分除了農產品那還有其他的部分我想問的是這個天然氣的來源"},{"start":252.088,"end":252.929,"text":"我講策略上應該會這樣子因為美國這個目的主要就是要打壓這個俄羅斯"},{"start":277.568,"end":299.785,"text":"俄羅斯分散到其他的國家但是就沒有分到美國所以我們對美國天然氣的採購我希望說是不是在未來能夠我們來增加對美國的這個採購另外你這個台電的預算的補助獎補助或者投資大家都問說過去三年度大概投了五千億我是怕未來會不會成為常態化"},{"start":301.021,"end":314.713,"text":"你要因為能源成本高升不降然後又有政策的目的這個部分你這種結構你成本沒有辦法降然後又有政策的目的要去達成長年性的補貼會變成一個常態化我很擔心這樣子"},{"start":319.37,"end":342.886,"text":"這會不會發生呢?我們來我們基於我們在衡量這個整個台電的這個財務結構我們發現這個材料的成本影響也很大第二個這個動漲然後影響這個公司營運這個也很大我們會就這個公司為什麼會造成虧損做深入的資料解那麼針對這個部分我們來改善我認為啦這個"},{"start":345.307,"end":365.982,"text":"現在如果這個2000億可以撥補進來的話那對我們來改善財務我們是支持這兩年的補助光是利息就300多億我擔心說未來每年都變常態性的這個都要憋1000億我是擔心這種狀況如果結構沒有調整的話昨天我請教您中油亞林最低價你說這個鬆綁這個鬆綁是誰要去處理的亞林最低價這個可能是要"},{"start":373.803,"end":398.273,"text":"以雅林最低價是當初是107年制定2007年制定的對這個要鬆綁要如何鬆綁呢現在我們希望能夠鬆綁要如何鬆綁你們希望鬆綁要如何鬆綁那個是因為油價公司本來是中油公司自己決定的事項所以中油公司他可以自己決定但是他因為以雅林最低價的這個約束是來自哪裡"},{"start":399.571,"end":424.286,"text":"就是在油價公司上面那這個部分是誰可以去調整?經濟部能不能調整?經濟部能不能調整?還是要涉及修法?這沒有涉及修法當然你經濟部可以去調整阿是你現在亞銀最低價因為韓國、日本都受到政府補貼我們他們有政府補貼我們還是維持最低價那當然對中油不公平阿所以如果這個部分要調整的話經濟部會跟中油公司我們一塊討論"},{"start":425.126,"end":450.418,"text":"那因為這個還有涉及到穩定就是物價各方面的考量所以我們會這個我們會跟中國公司我們油價在亞林是一直最低價那他們也有其他政府的補貼我們沒有政府補貼特別是中油所以這不會盡快去思考如何把這個亞林最低價鬆綁讓這個油價能夠回歸到市場比較市場機制又能夠兼顧這個不要造成這個通貨膨脹或者民生物價上漲"},{"start":451.639,"end":479.457,"text":"我們會內部討論完以後跟院裡面報告,然後講話,其他部門選擇共識。 那麼三個月之內提出一個檢討。另外韓電,我們有台電,那韓國也有韓電嘛。韓電啊,它的這個核能發電占了三成左右。韓國有人說啊,有人有一些小朋友說,我用核電,用核電發電的話,我的這個電價會下降,是迷思耶。"},{"start":482.187,"end":506.304,"text":"韓電燒錢比我們燒得更嚴重,它虧損比我們還多,它的核能佔了三成,我們目前只有6.3%,對不對?所以核能不是造成能源、能夠、電能夠下降的一個因素嘛。所以大家都很擔心,這個迷思說,哇,這個核電,我發展核電,會讓能源的成本降低。"},{"start":510.294,"end":516.438,"text":"韓國的經驗要讓大家知道,韓國百分之三十都是恆隆法電,可是它虧損還比台灣更嚴重。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":691,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時24分）謝謝主席。有請郭部長、台電曾董事長、台水李董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長、曾董事長、李董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：部長早。部長辛苦了。我們先看台水的漏水率，雖然說逐年有下降，我們編了兩期的預算，從114年開始推動新一期的降低漏水率計畫，編了大概是72億，計畫執行從114年到121年，114年的目標是降到11.55%，好，如果說72億執行7年，到121年的時候，漏水率會降到多少？"],["李董事長嘉榮：報告委員，114年是72億，到121年整體的計畫總金額是808億。"],["邱委員志偉：對，808億，那是單一年度的預算嘛？"],["李董事長嘉榮：單一年度的預算。"],["邱委員志偉：那你111年要編到800億嘛，對不對？"],["李董事長嘉榮：到121年。"],["邱委員志偉：800億嘛？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["邱委員志偉：編800億，漏水率會降到多少？"],["李董事長嘉榮：9.77%。"],["邱委員志偉：11.55%，經過7年，降到9.77%，投入800億？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["邱委員志偉：那上一期102年到113年花多少錢？"],["李董事長嘉榮：花了1,003億。"],["邱委員志偉：你們的效能可能要提高。你看一年的漏水率，從110年來看，相當於全國人口62天的民生用水量，所以針對漏水率降低，你應該要設定更好的標準、更嚴格的標準，如果我給你800億，漏水率降到5%以下，我們可以接受，好不好？"],["李董事長嘉榮：是，我們來努力。跟委員報告，下一階段的漏水率現在已經降到大概12%以下，越降越低的話，每1%要投入的金額是越高的。"],["邱委員志偉：我了解啦。但是降低總體漏水率，我希望你的效能能夠更好一點，因為畢竟這800億的預算不算少。"],["李董事長嘉榮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，在清淤的部分，因為你們自有水源來自於水庫比較多，對不對？"],["李董事長嘉榮：也有地下水。"],["邱委員志偉：對，也有地下水，主要是水庫，那你的清淤，包括阿公店溪那些清淤，都要確實到位，確保自有水源能夠供應。另外還有地下水。另外你外購的部分近幾年連續增加嘛。"],["李董事長嘉榮：對，跟委員報告，我們自有水源比例會下降的原因，是因為雲彰地區地層下陷有一個防治的方案，減抽地下水，這些地下水都是我們的自有水源。"],["邱委員志偉：台水要跟另外一家公司買嘛？"],["李董事長嘉榮：北水處，水情如果不佳的話，我們要跟北水處……"],["邱委員志偉：水價長期一國兩制，這個部分是不是……"],["李董事長嘉榮：這個我們也有跟北水處協調多次，水利署也有協助我們跟北水處……"],["邱委員志偉：未來是不是能夠朝向水價統一？部長，是不是能夠朝這個方向來努力？"],["郭部長智輝：水價的部分未來能不能夠調整，是審議委員會的……"],["邱委員志偉：我不是講水價調整，是說北水處跟台水的水價能夠統一。"],["郭部長智輝：因為主管機構不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：一個是市政府，一個是你們，但是你們必須協調啊。","央行總裁楊金龍說，川普總統上任之後，他可能會建議政府加強對美國的投資跟採購，投資的項目川普最希望的就是半導體，特別是先進製程的部分，而我們採購的部分，除了農產品，還有其他的部分，我想問的是天然氣的來源，天然氣主要氣源國是澳洲，大概占四成多，然後是卡達，大概有三成多，以前有俄羅斯，現在俄羅斯當然不行，但是美國還是停留在10%，未來有沒有可能對美國的天然氣採購能夠再增加？這個部分台電有沒有腹案？"],["郭部長智輝：策略上應該會是這樣子，因為美國的目的主要就是要打壓俄羅斯。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊，俄羅斯現在分散到其他的國家，但是卻沒有分到美國，所以我們對美國的天然氣的採購，我希望未來我們能夠……"],["郭部長智輝：我們來增加對美國的採購。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，台電的預算的獎補助或投資，你看，大家都會問說，過去3年度大概投入5,000億，未來會不會成為常態化？你要因應能源成本高升不降，然後又有政策的目的，照這個結構，成本沒有辦法降，然後還有政策的目的要去達成，長年性的補貼會變成常態化，我很擔心這樣子，這個會不會發生呢？"],["郭部長智輝：第一個，我們衡量整個台電的財務結構，發現材料的成本影響也很大。第二個，凍漲影響公司營運也很大。我們會就公司為什麼會造成虧損做深入的瞭解，針對這個部分，我們來改善，我認為如果這2,000億可以撥補進來的話，有助於我們改善財務，我們現在的財務補助，光是利息就三百多億……"],["邱委員志偉：我擔心未來每年會變成常態性的都要編1,000億，我是擔心這種狀況，如果結構沒有調整的話，昨天我請教您中油亞鄰最低價，你說這個要鬆綁，鬆綁是誰要去處理的？亞鄰最低價當初是2007年制訂的，這個要如何鬆綁呢？"],["郭部長智輝：現在我們希望能夠鬆綁。"],["邱委員志偉：要如何鬆綁？你們希望鬆綁，要如何鬆綁？"],["胡司長文中：油價公式本來是中油公司自己決定的事項，所以中油公司可以自己決定，但是因為……"],["邱委員志偉：亞鄰最低價這個約束是來自哪裡？"],["胡司長文中：就是在油價公式上面。"],["邱委員志偉：那這個部分是誰可以去調整的？經濟部能不能調整？經濟部能不能調整？還是要涉及修法？"],["胡司長文中：這沒有涉及修法。"],["邱委員志偉：但是你經濟部可以去調整啊。"],["胡司長文中：是。"],["邱委員志偉：不是，現在韓國、日本都受到政府的補貼，他們有政府補貼，我們還是維持最低價，那當然對中油不公平啊。"],["胡司長文中：所以如果這個部分要調整的話，經濟部會跟中油公司一塊討論，因為這個還有涉及到……"],["邱委員志偉：期程要出來。"],["胡司長文中：因為這個涉及到物價穩定，就是物價各方面的考量，所以我們會跟中油公司再討論。"],["邱委員志偉：我們油價在亞鄰一直是最低價，那其他國家也有政府的補貼，我們沒有政府補貼，特別是中油，所以這個部分儘快去思考如何把亞鄰最低價鬆綁，讓油價能夠回歸到市場機制，又能夠不造成通貨膨脹或民生物價上漲。"],["郭部長智輝：我們內部討論完了以後會跟院裡面報告，然後跟其他的部門取得共識。"],["邱委員志偉：儘快，能不能在3個月之內提出一個檢討？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，我們有台電，那韓國也有韓電，韓電的核能發電占了三成左右，有人有一個想法，說用核電的話電價會下降，這是一個迷思，韓電賠錢也比我們嚴重，虧損比我們還多，它的核能占了三成，我們目前只有6.3%，所以核能不是造成電價下降的因素，有很多人有迷思，說發展核電會讓能源的成本降低，這不是事實，韓國的經驗要讓大家知道，韓國30%都是核能發電，可是虧損還比臺灣更嚴重。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我時間到了，我要做一個榜樣。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱委員，典型在夙昔。"],["主席（邱委員志偉）：好，謝謝。下一位質詢請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","羅智強","賴士葆","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","葉元之","林德福"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公\n司、台灣自來水股份有限公司（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}