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},{"start":267.384,"end":285.464,"text":"我是認為你們的做法端可以再積極一點因為台中其實承擔這麼大的一個火力發電產生的所謂的一個排碳對台中人來講也不是很公平沒錯吧那個我跟委員報告就是說台中市的一年的用電度數是340億度那中火發電度數是270億度事實上中間有個"},{"start":290.408,"end":304.855,"text":"我要講就是說今天對台中的人來說的話實際上台中火力發電廠真的是舉世聞名阿沒錯吧你對那個台中的那個燃氣也好燃煤也好實際上造成台中空氣上的負擔我覺得這一點請你們再積極一點以上謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:43:52.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:43:56.602000+08:00","text":"主席，有請郭部長跟曾董事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T11:43:56.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:04.330000+08:00","text":"請經濟部郭部長、台電曾董事長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:04.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:04.570000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:06.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:07.974000+08:00","text":"部長、董事長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:08.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:09.155000+08:00","text":"台中火力發電廠一期燃氣計畫的2部燃氣機組預計何時上線？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:09.155000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:12.696667+08:00","text":"明年跟後年，也就是2025年跟2026年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:12.696667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:16.238333+08:00","text":"燃氣機組上線之後，中火燃煤的1號機、2號機何時可以拆除？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:16.238333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:19.780000+08:00","text":"我們預計2026年底開始拆。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:19.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:23.545000+08:00","text":"2026年底開始拆，明年中火第一部燃氣機組上線，那是不是就可以同時去減煤了？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:39.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:49.984000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，中火已經從原來的1,800萬噸用煤量降到現在1,200萬噸用煤量，其實已經先降了。好。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:44:50.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:44:59.773000+08:00","text":"我再請教，台電預估今年的燃煤用量是2,450萬公噸，那明年是多少？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:06.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:07.733000+08:00","text":"大概2,200萬左右。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:11.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:24.998000+08:00","text":"你現在跟我講的是2026年，可是我剛剛看到我的資料是說，你是要等到2031年中火第二期的第一部燃氣機組上線，才要開始減煤300萬噸，是這個意思嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:24.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:41.530000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，那個是我們在環評上面跟環評委員會提出來的屋頂的限制方案，但是調度上面只要調得過，我們就會開始慢慢減煤，只要用電量成長的幅度沒有特別高，水情沒有很差……","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:41.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:42.750000+08:00","text":"就要開始減嘛，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:42.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:49.512000+08:00","text":"它其實是一個屋頂，我們只要調度可行，我們就會逐步地來減煤。好。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:51.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:54.153000+08:00","text":"明年主要是麥寮要下去，所以麥寮那邊會減掉500萬噸。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:54.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:55.713000+08:00","text":"我們回到中火的問題，中火10部燃煤機組的裝置發電容量是5,500百萬瓦嘛，對不對？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:45:55.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:45:55.713000+08:00","text":"對，550萬瓩。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:11.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:46:13.301000+08:00","text":"那2023年實際發電量是3,600百萬瓦嘛，對不對？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:14.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:46:15.163000+08:00","text":"應該是270億度左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:24.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:46:30.726000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，你看你的計算基準用的單位不一樣。對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:30.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:46:32.608000+08:00","text":"我的重點是什麼？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:32.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:46:55.304000+08:00","text":"重點就是，實際上，以實際發電量來對比中火一期的2部燃氣機組，加上2026年可以完成的中佳民營燃氣廠的裝置容量，合計大概就是3,200百萬瓦，是嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:46:55.304000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:00.126000+08:00","text":"對，3,200百萬瓦。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:00.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:06.532000+08:00","text":"新增的燃氣發電量幾乎跟現在中火的燃煤發電量差不多，沒錯吧？不到。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:07.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:09.615000+08:00","text":"差不多，就少400左右，少400。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:11.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:12.657000+08:00","text":"因為中火現在是5,500 megawatt。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:15.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:16.420000+08:00","text":"我講的是實際發電量，不是講裝置容量。","quality":1},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:16.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:16.701000+08:00","text":"那個實際發電量不是3,600。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:16.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:16.941000+08:00","text":"實際是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:22.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:28.148000+08:00","text":"你要用一致的單位，我才有辦法跟你比較，因為我手上沒有幾億度的電啊。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:28.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:31.972000+08:00","text":"我不知道委員拿到那個3,600 megawatt是什麼基準。對。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:33.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:35.095000+08:00","text":"所以我們基本上都是用煤量直接……發電量。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:35.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:38.218000+08:00","text":"裝置發電一般也未必用到嘛，對不對？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:39.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:41.401000+08:00","text":"所以你用這個公式算下來是多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:41.401000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:45.261000+08:00","text":"是5,500 megawatt。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:45.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:47.463000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你會後再把實際數字給我，好不好？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:47.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:49.465000+08:00","text":"因為我這個也是從台電抓下來的資料。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:49.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:50.666000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:50.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:47:54.289000+08:00","text":"你的數字都跟我說的不一樣，那你把實際數字給我。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:47:55.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:24.037000+08:00","text":"所以我的問題就是，既然以發電量來看，我講的不是裝置容量，那為什麼不能在一期的2部燃氣機組上線的時候就開始即早減煤，一定要做到2034年，才能夠做到中火無煤化，我是認為你們的做法可以再積極一點，因為臺中承擔這麼大的火力發電產生的排碳，對臺中人來講，也不是很公平，沒錯吧？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:24.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:30.464000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，臺中市一年的用電度數是340億度，中火發電度數是270億度，事實上中間有一個gap。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:35.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:42.271000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，今天對臺中的人來說，台中火力發電廠真的是舉世聞名，沒錯吧？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:44.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:49.695000+08:00","text":"臺中的燃氣也好，燃煤也好，事實上造成臺中空氣上的負擔，我覺得針對這一點請你應該積極一點。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:49.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:49.855000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:50.355000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:51.355000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:51.655000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:53.655000+08:00","text":"謝謝羅智強委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:53.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:55.383571+08:00","text":"部長請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T11:48:55.683571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T11:48:58.826429+08:00","text":"下一位質詢請賴士葆委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":777,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時43分）主席，有請郭部長跟曾董事長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長、台電曾董事長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長、董事長。台中火力發電廠一期燃氣計畫的2部燃氣機組預計何時上線？"],["曾董事長文生：明年跟後年，也就是2025年跟2026年。"],["羅委員智強：燃氣機組上線之後，中火燃煤的1號機、2號機何時可以拆除？"],["曾董事長文生：我們預計2026年底開始拆。"],["羅委員智強：2026年底開始拆，明年中火第一部燃氣機組上線，那是不是就可以同時去減煤了？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，中火已經從原來的1,800萬噸用煤量降到現在1,200萬噸用煤量，其實已經先降了。"],["羅委員智強：好。我再請教，台電預估今年的燃煤用量是2,450萬公噸，那明年是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：大概2,200萬左右。"],["羅委員智強：你現在跟我講的是2026年，可是我剛剛看到我的資料是說，你是要等到2031年中火第二期的第一部燃氣機組上線，才要開始減煤300萬噸，是這個意思嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，那個是我們在環評上面跟環評委員會提出來的屋頂的限制方案，但是調度上面只要調得過，我們就會開始慢慢減煤，只要用電量成長的幅度沒有特別高，水情沒有很差……"],["羅委員智強：就要開始減嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：它其實是一個屋頂，我們只要調度可行，我們就會逐步地來減煤。"],["羅委員智強：好。"],["曾董事長文生：明年主要是麥寮要下去，所以麥寮那邊會減掉500萬噸。"],["羅委員智強：我們回到中火的問題，中火10部燃煤機組的裝置發電容量是5,500百萬瓦嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：對，550萬瓩。"],["羅委員智強：那2023年實際發電量是3,600百萬瓦嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：應該是270億度左右。"],["羅委員智強：好，沒關係，你看你的計算基準用的單位不一樣。"],["曾董事長文生：對。"],["羅委員智強：我的重點是什麼？重點就是，實際上，以實際發電量來對比中火一期的2部燃氣機組，加上2026年可以完成的中佳民營燃氣廠的裝置容量，合計大概就是3,200百萬瓦，是嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：對，3,200百萬瓦。"],["羅委員智強：新增的燃氣發電量幾乎跟現在中火的燃煤發電量差不多，沒錯吧？"],["曾董事長文生：不到。"],["羅委員智強：差不多，就少400左右，少400。"],["曾董事長文生：因為中火現在是5,500 megawatt。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是實際發電量，不是講裝置容量。"],["曾董事長文生：那個實際發電量不是3,600。"],["羅委員智強：實際是多少？你要用一致的單位，我才有辦法跟你比較，因為我手上沒有幾億度的電啊。"],["曾董事長文生：我不知道委員拿到那個3,600 megawatt是什麼基準。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["曾董事長文生：所以我們基本上都是用煤量直接……發電量。"],["羅委員智強：裝置發電一般也未必用到嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以你用這個公式算下來是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：是5,500 megawatt。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，你會後再把實際數字給我，好不好？因為我這個也是從台電抓下來的資料。"],["曾董事長文生：好，可以。"],["羅委員智強：你的數字都跟我說的不一樣，那你把實際數字給我。","所以我的問題就是，既然以發電量來看，我講的不是裝置容量，那為什麼不能在一期的2部燃氣機組上線的時候就開始即早減煤，一定要做到2034年，才能夠做到中火無煤化，我是認為你們的做法可以再積極一點，因為臺中承擔這麼大的火力發電產生的排碳，對臺中人來講，也不是很公平，沒錯吧？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，臺中市一年的用電度數是340億度，中火發電度數是270億度，事實上中間有一個gap。"],["羅委員智強：我要講的是，今天對臺中的人來說，台中火力發電廠真的是舉世聞名，沒錯吧？臺中的燃氣也好，燃煤也好，事實上造成臺中空氣上的負擔，我覺得針對這一點請你應該積極一點。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。謝謝羅智強委員。部長請回座。","下一位質詢請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","羅智強","賴士葆","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","葉元之","林德福"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公\n司、台灣自來水股份有限公司（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}