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但是如果說你要講我真的因為我其實準備...抱歉教育...交通部讓你在後面站學校一定知道廢話"},{"start":402.347,"end":411.036,"text":"他都已經進入到學校校園都已經公告說20到28、25號要來叫召了學校當然知道但重點是學校能不能拒絕嘛"},{"start":412.33,"end":436.337,"text":"今天國防部已經找到了政大政大有沒有說不的權利那不然的話怎麼會說讓他們進入到校園裡面做教導那我剛剛從頭到尾一直質詢的是說當政大收到這樣的一個命令的時候有沒有讓教育部知道至少政大它的位階上來講國防部比較大那我能不能找我的主管機關教育部部長對部長"},{"start":437.717,"end":462.231,"text":"叫部長去講一下說你們辦這個會死的你不要來我們學校辦結果沒有啊我們現在聽到的是教育部長一推256完全不知道這個狀況沒有跟委員報告所以我才會那麼的關心就是說當大學政大他自己就可以同意了他也可以拒絕跟委員報告有嗎我們現在看到的就是已經被霸王硬上弓了嘛"},{"start":463.148,"end":463.749,"text":"不是嗎?部長你現在發言是有經過了解還是說你只是揣測?"},{"start":479.195,"end":495.14,"text":"部長,我很實在話講,你的這個回答我真的沒有辦法接受,因為以大學來講,如果說國防部,就像你剛剛講的,因為一開始又先推地方政府就可以同意了,不用經過教育部,那如果說現在這樣講的話,"},{"start":496.52,"end":518.631,"text":"學校有沒有他的權利可以說不當然是可以的是嗎是我現在看起來是你完全不了解狀況根據委員報告真的我們現在整個大環境很多的思維也真的在改變譬如說我們在國防科技許多的人才也用我拜託一下好不好你是教育主管機關你要幫的是大學講話你現在一直"},{"start":520.512,"end":542.258,"text":"您把自己變成是國防部長了是不是我從來不敢預約我的一個部長你現在是希望大學裡面都要軍事訓練合理化今天政大明天台大後天中山跟委員報告我還是說這是屬於大學市裡面大學的一個發展他們一個選擇這個我們可以尊重謝謝部長"},{"start":543.601,"end":549.525,"text":"是不是瞭解之後給本席跟我們財政委員會關心的委員一個報告?幾個部分一定要在這邊幫我們地方的鄉親再發聲第一"},{"start":567.657,"end":590.547,"text":"但海輕軌二期的計畫已經10月底送到鐵道局要審理,那這已經來來回回了應該有3次了,到目前是不是能夠加快速度,趕快審理完畢送行這邊?可以,我們可以再加速。太板輕軌可行性計畫也在10月28號新北市政府已經送到交通部,應該是鐵道局在審理。對,鐵道局,是。"},{"start":590.987,"end":608.674,"text":"那這兩個計畫都是事關重大這兩個計畫什麼時候能夠給我們新北市府一個具體的答案我理解他們現在大概針對這些這個報告請各單位表示意見那後面我們會盡快的把這些相關的意見說上來"},{"start":610.014,"end":628.052,"text":"因為這兩個計畫都已經來來回回了據我的理解應該有兩次到三次所以我們希望這一次就可以是最後一次是能夠合訂、競速合訂可以嗎?是對好那再來前瞻計畫裡面有停車場空間的一個部分當然現在有延期到114年的一個8月調整經費又總經費增加60億變260億"},{"start":634.378,"end":663.377,"text":"本席提出來因為淡水地區現在20萬的人口即將在這個禮拜就產生再加上你有看到相關的觀光景點淡水地區是過去這3年被國內國外人士認為是說最熱門的觀光景點之一所以很多人講說淡水的停車空間只有20年前蓋捷運站的時候下面的一個停車場但是接下來都沒有比較大型的一個停車計畫"},{"start":664.558,"end":673.681,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":692.186,"end":697.832,"text":"教育部要提出這個報告,那如果中小學也進中小學部長是不是也會同意?"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1639,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請教育部長跟交通部長。"],["主席：鄭部長、交通部伍次長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教鄭部長，鄭部長，延續剛剛賴委員的質詢，本席看到也覺得非常地離譜，您剛剛講是說國防部宣布要在政大做一個禮拜的教召，事先都沒有跟教育部溝通，是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我想內部情形我再來了解，我確實沒有收到這個訊息。"],["洪委員孟楷：你不知道？"],["鄭部長英耀：但是我相信這通常屬於大學的權責，在大學已經……"],["洪委員孟楷：再怎麼屬於大學權責，以往的教召都沒有發生過！今天突然講要教召，而且20日運了軍械物資進入校園、禮拜六會有幹部進入校園、25日有100名教召員進駐、28日行軍訓練、禮拜五才解編，換言之，完整的訓練期程全都已經出來了。現在更已經有同學看到穿迷彩服的阿兵哥在一樓大廳來來回回走動場勘，結果教育部身為教育主管機關，到目前為止卻後知後覺、不聞不問！"],["鄭部長英耀：不，跟委員報告，在大學裡面確實……"],["洪委員孟楷：之前你們有沒有表達過？我都還想問，你們之前有沒有跟國防部表達過不合適？有地形、地貌固然對教召有影響，但對於國防部提出這樣的需求，教育部難道就認為沒關係讓你用啦？你們什麼時候、有沒有表達不合適？那國防部就是霸王硬上弓、就是要，還是怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長英耀：就目前的辦法，是由縣市後備指揮部依國防部整體規劃需求逕洽所選定的學校辦理，也就是說由地方政府的後備指揮部直接跟學校接洽，以目前的辦法是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是依據什麼樣的辦法？誰訂的辦法？"],["鄭部長英耀：就這個場地來看，國……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在的重點在於你們是教育主管機關，但我推估你跟我們一樣，都是看到了報導才知道，如果是這樣的話，我覺得事情更大條欸！代表的是國防部今天想選定哪一所學校就自己直接去溝通，教育部也不聞不問、管不著！如果今天是政大，那本席的選區──淡水河口現在也常被國防部講是訓練的首要之區，因為可能會有斬首行動，那麼未來會不會是淡江大學、真理大學、聖約翰大學？然後教育部都沒辦法？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們最在意的是會不會影響到老師的教學跟學生的研究……"],["洪委員孟楷：那現在您覺得教召……"],["鄭部長英耀：那……"],["洪委員孟楷：來！部長，您是政大校友嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那您覺得有身穿迷彩裝的阿兵哥進入校園、有100名教召人員、有軍械、有武器、裝備、設備進到校園，會不會有影響？"],["鄭部長英耀：我必須要在實際情況下才能夠評估。對不起，跟委員報告，我相信大學裡有一套治理系統，在是不是會影響教學、研究上，一定會有一些評估。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你記不記得我們上個禮拜在同一個場地時，所有大專院校校長也來？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我是不是才質詢跟請教有沒有信心幫教育部主管的這些大學校長解決柴米油鹽醬醋茶的問題？"],["鄭部長英耀：這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：我也期許你不要換了位子就換腦袋，因為你過去是中山大學校長，我也肯定你過去在中山大學服務得很不錯。如果今天國防部選定中山大學，你身為前校長，要不要講講話？你可以接受國防部來中山大學嗎？如果你還是校長的話？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，學校場地上的使用，基本上的最高原則一定就是對於老師的教學、學生的學習、教學研究上會不會產生干擾。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛！所以，部長，我只問一句：學校是為什麼服務？學生、老師、研究？"],["鄭部長英耀：是、是、是。"],["洪委員孟楷：學校從以前到現在有想過它要變成教召的場地嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想，基本上我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：我翻遍教育部的規定，有教召場地是學校要提供的規定嗎？沒有嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：基本上不是學校的主要服務項目。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，您講到重點了，所以，部長，對於這件事情，教育部能夠怎麼硬起來？"],["鄭部長英耀：容我會後了解，整體掌握之後，再跟委員作詳細的報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：很多國人都關心，因為現在不是只涉及政大。如果政大沒有任何人講話，那中山大學有可能是下一個！"],["鄭部長英耀：我想跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：以後在全部縣市、所有委員所在縣市，國防部只要一道命令，都可以說要借用學校場地。如果大學可以借用，那高中能不能借用？高中能夠借用，那國中能不能借用？到最後恐怕變成全民皆兵，所有學校都可以！能夠同意嗎？臺灣是已經要進入準戰爭狀態了是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你一個禮拜內正式地給本席……"],["鄭部長英耀：這個部分學校一定是知道的。跟委員報告，因為一定要經過大學校院、也就是學校通過才會……"],["洪委員孟楷：來、來、來、來，部長！本席的時間真的有限啦！但如果你要講，我真的……因為我其實準備了其他議題，抱歉，讓交通部官員在後面站。你說學校一定知道，廢話！軍方都已經進入學校，校園都已經公告20日到25日要來教召了，學校當然知道，但重點是學校能不能拒絕嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：學校當然可以拒絕啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：今天國防部已經找到了政大，政大有沒有Say No的權利？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然是可以的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：不然怎麼會讓他們進入校園裡面辦教召？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，政大是可以Say No的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我剛剛從頭到尾一直質詢的是當政大收到這樣的命令時，有沒有讓教育部知道？至少相較於政大的位階來講，國防部比較大啊！那政大能不能找它的主管機關教育部，由部長對部長，請部長去說說，辦這個可以，但不要到他們學校辦？結果沒有啊！我們現在聽到的是教育部長一推二五六、完全不知道這個狀況！"],["鄭部長英耀：不，跟委員報告，是……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我才會那麼地關心，若是今天政大可以……"],["鄭部長英耀：大學自己就可以同意了，也可以拒絕，跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？但我們現在看到的就是已經被霸王硬上弓了嘛！不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：不，我認為基於大學校務治理，他們一定有他們的整體考量。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你現在的發言是經過了解或者只是揣測？"],["鄭部長英耀：以他們現在給我的資料，是大學端一定要同意的。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我以很實在的話講，你這個回答我真的沒有辦法接受！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為以大學來講，如果國防部就像你剛剛講的，一開始就先推，地方政府就可以同意了，不用經過教育部……"],["鄭部長英耀：確實只要經過縣市……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果照現在這樣講的話，學校有沒有它的權利可以Say No？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然是可以的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我現在看起來是你完全不了解狀況。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，以現在整個大環境，很多思維真的在改變，譬如說許多在國防科技上的人才也……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長！拜託一下好不好？你是教育主管機關，你要做的是幫大學講話！"],["鄭部長英耀：這沒有問題，該我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你這樣一直……你把自己變成國防部長了是不是？"],["鄭部長英耀：我從來不敢逾越我的……"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在是希望大學裡面都要軍事訓練合理化？今天政大、明天臺大、後天中山？不要開玩笑好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我還是要說，這屬於大學治理裡大學發展的權責，這點我們予以尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：好！謝謝、謝謝部長，是不是請您在了解之後給本席……"],["鄭部長英耀：可以，沒有問題、沒有問題！"],["洪委員孟楷：給本席跟財政委員會關心此事的委員一份報告？"],["鄭部長英耀：是，感謝委員關心、感謝委員關心。"],["洪委員孟楷：不好意思，再1分鐘就好，不好意思喔！請教育部次長。"],["主席：是交通部吧？"],["洪委員孟楷：對，交通部。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我有幾個部分一定要在這邊幫我們地方鄉親再發聲。第一，淡海輕軌二期計畫10月底送到鐵道局審理，來來回回應該已經有3次了，目前是不是能夠加快速度、趕快審理完畢送行政院？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，可以加速。"],["洪委員孟楷：關於泰板輕軌可行性計畫，新北市政府也已經在10月28日送到交通部，應該也是鐵道局在審理。"],["伍次長勝園：對，鐵道局。"],["洪委員孟楷：這兩個計畫都事關重大。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：針對這兩個計畫，什麼時候能夠給新北市府具體的答案？"],["伍次長勝園：據我理解，他們大概在針對這些報告請各單位表示意見，後續我們會儘快把這些相關意見收上來。"],["洪委員孟楷：這兩個計畫都已經來來回回了……據我的理解，應該有兩次到三次，所以我希望這一次就可以是最後一次。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：能夠核定儘速核定，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：是，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。","再來，前瞻計畫裡有停車場空間這個部分，現在延期到114年8月，也調整經費，總經費增加60億元，變成260億元嘛！本席要提出，隨著淡水地區第20萬人口即將在這個禮拜就產生，再加上你也看到，在觀光景點中，淡水地區是過去這三年被國內、國外人士認為最熱門的觀光景點之一，對不對？"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是很多人說淡水的停車空間只有20年前蓋捷運站的時候下面的停車場，接下來都沒有比較大型的停車計畫，就這個部分，如果地方政府提出來，是不是有支持的空間？"],["伍次長勝園：如果有需求，只要地方提出來，我想我們會全力支持。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那本席也會儘速安排相關會勘，我們找地方政府、中央政府一起來討論，看看能不能選定合適的地點研議，並請地方政府提出計畫，爭取停車場建設。"],["伍次長勝園：好，沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。教育部要提出報告喔！如果也進中小學，部長是不是也會同意啊？我是說教召，部長同意嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：地方政府要同意。"],["主席：接著請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}