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schedule嗎"},{"start":429.493,"end":450.239,"text":"目前這個階段是按原計劃的里程碑在進行當中所以都還沒有直言對於應該這樣講他有按里程碑交出這個成果但是這個成果的好與壞我們顧問公司正在做嚴格的審查所以我才貼給你看嘛是9月12號的會議紀錄啊"},{"start":452.777,"end":465.003,"text":"提出來的東西根本沒有辦法符合你們的需求現在就已經預見了後續的細部設計跟測試將發生整合的困難這全部都是你們交的文件"},{"start":466.581,"end":489.718,"text":"報告委員這個是9月12號是由機場公司這邊的會議所以我們的確在那個階段已經看到廠商的設計內容的品質的問題所以預先請他要做檢討那他現在是11月15號已經提出完整的結果那當然我們就會依據他的內容的品質再來做審查來我們先看齁10月29號"},{"start":493.22,"end":508.079,"text":"接下來有履約管理會議那就是你剛剛所講的在11月14號以前完成所有細部設計提供審查你們之前在11月19號的時候說在文件的數量跟品質上都有落差"},{"start":509.721,"end":524.509,"text":"跟國際上面的標準對安全議題的分析顯有不足嗎現在這些問題都解決了嗎包委員這個就是我們在歷次的一個相關會議裡面包含我們的顧問這些的意見都是我們的顧問團隊所看到"},{"start":526.51,"end":529.371,"text":"我這樣講好了啦你們前面啊在挑選廠商的時候沒有嚴格把關接下來後面就是一堆爛攤子"},{"start":556.175,"end":581.779,"text":"後面就是一堆爛攤子我收到的檢舉是什麼我收到的檢舉是說目前這個李立這個詐騙廠商現在是要讓工程會去施壓要陳韻跟他和解是不是有收到這樣的消息嗎沒有收到這樣的消息目前陳韻是不是希望把他換成工研院"},{"start":583.77,"end":600.101,"text":"目前我們有得到承運的一個提出的請求他要把工研院再加到他的團隊裡面來事實上就是要工研院去做之前那個爛廠商該做的工作啦把他加進來沒有把他踢出去"},{"start":601.298,"end":628.987,"text":"這完全就是在程序上面搞的技巧嘛明眼人一看就知道了嘛那現在他提出這樣子的申請你們會同意嗎包委員我想這個部分有一些會涉及到原來契約的一些要求的分工跟執行的內容跟相關採購法的規定所以這個部分也在我們審查的範圍這我了解啦其實將心比心站在你們的位置上"},{"start":630.049,"end":650.724,"text":"我知道你們很痛苦因為連我在思考這件事情我都不知道你們要怎麼收拾這個爛攤子你讓他換那大家就會質疑你前面的評選公不公平你不讓他換他又沒有能力做下去那掩護的是我們整個機場的工程整個T3運輸的品質"},{"start":655.131,"end":676.407,"text":"大家現在會痛苦就是因為這樣的事情我向來的立場我從來不介入私人廠商彼此之間的紛爭廠商之間私人要怎麼處理是廠商的事但是我們站在國家的立場遇到這種爛事遇到這種爛事最後就是全民來承擔嗎"},{"start":678.174,"end":686.207,"text":"最後就是全民來承擔了我們現在面臨到的狀況就是這個樣子但是回到部長一開始所講的有問題但檢討到現在沒有人要負責嗎"},{"start":692.699,"end":721.921,"text":"是嗎 部長保委員 程序上以現在的結論看當時的程序可能有檢討的問題那我們現在也在精進就是對未來如果有類似的案件我們當然要精進那另外就是我也有特別要求雖然這件事情有發生這些的這個過程但是我還是要求桃機公司在整個T3航廈未來的整個運輸系統不能夠去delay到不能夠延遲到這是我對桃機系統的要求桃機公司的要求"},{"start":722.281,"end":739.365,"text":"部長你的要求大家都聽到了啦我也不希望會發生delay的狀況但萬一到時候發生delay的狀況的話責任追究就很辛苦啦我最後只有跟交通部跟桃機有一個具體的要求這種詐騙廠商該負的責任要他負"},{"start":744.512,"end":767.606,"text":"該負的責任要他負沒有道理在這個過程裡面整個國家的利益因為前面的錯誤造成了犧牲結果最後付出代價的是全體國人而不是這個有問題的廠商這個立場跟這個原則一定要堅守住部長可不可以承諾好 這個部分沒有問題OK 好一定會依法來辦理謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1100,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長及桃機董事長。"],["主席：陳部長、楊董。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：之前我就關心過我們三航廈的標案，裡面出現一個惡名昭彰的廠商叫做理立。我用「惡名昭彰」這個詞，聽起來是有點重，但是過去的敗行劣跡，我在好幾次的質詢中也一路追蹤下來。但我覺得我們國家的制度非常奇怪，這種欺騙國人、甚至騙到經濟部莫名其妙給它一個獎，結果在美國的實績全部都是造假的公司，竟然屢屢在我國拿到重要的標案，全體國人看得是目瞪口呆，這家公司到底是什麼後台，後台這麼硬，一直拿到莫名其妙的標案。上次請教過部長這件事，部長也說會回去查嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["黃委員國昌：後來我就陸陸續續收到交通部一些回函的檢討措施，所以我們就一樣一樣來看。","第一個，回答是說那次整個招標評選完全合法，我看了這個結論就非常訝異、就趕快進一步拜讀，這種詐騙的廠商是怎麼樣拿到標案。如果整個程序都合法，還會讓這種詐騙的廠商得逞，問題就嚴重了，等於是我們合法的程序都攔阻不下這種詐騙的廠商，茲事體大。進一步看，你們說那個時候它提出來的實績，因為要審查它的資格、它的能力、它的實績，我看你們回函的內容是臺鐵行控4.0。問題是臺鐵行控4.0，我之前質詢運安會的時候，運安會說的是什麼？那個東西根本不能用啊！我的問題就來了，一個重要的標案要評選廠商，前面要有實績嘛！它提出來的實績是一個爛得不得了的實績，連運安會的主委都說根本不能用。所以我們在評選的時候是什麼？看paperwork前面只要有標案，這樣就算數囉？部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：委員，關於你提醒的這個，我也覺得是有問題，所以我才會認為要再精進，因此在回復你的內容中，對於未來的評選方式應該要再精進。如果用現在的方式沒有辦法杜絕不好的廠商進來，未來就必然要精進。"],["黃委員國昌：說得很好！部長在備詢的時候肯說出這個的確有問題，代表的是什麼？最起碼還願意誠實面對問題嘛！這是非常重要的第一步啊！誠實面對問題以後要怎麼解決問題，我們接下來才要繼續看嘛！","T3運輸系統，可能部長所講的，未來要精進的部分，對於這種重要的系統技術，譬如行車管理系統，以後要單獨評選，不要全部混在一起嘛！全部混在一起，裡面重要的部分沒有單獨評選，混水摸魚就過去了嘛！這一點我是認同的。"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我們再往下看，這個案子履行到現在，你們的分包計畫還沒有核定，那個包商就對外宣稱已經核定了，有出現這樣的狀況嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：據我所知，應該還沒核定吧！"],["黃委員國昌：對，我知道還沒核定嘛！但是，部長，你看一下我附的，你們的會議紀錄警告那個包商，不要對外宣稱已經監造單位核定，以免產生爭議。你們會寫這樣的文字，代表的是什麼？代表他們已經在外面放話了，所以警告他們不要這樣幹。但我看實際上的過程，從2023年12月決標到現在，分包計畫書到目前還在協調，是這樣嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：現在正在送審當中，我是不是請總經理說明？"],["黃委員國昌：可以、可以，請熟悉的人上來回答這個問題，我沒有要為難部長的意思，我們解決問題比較重要。"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個分包計畫是由成運公司還在檢討中，最近有提了……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的困惑是從決標到現在分包計畫搞了快一年，搞了快一年卻還在檢討，這樣到底來得及、來不及啊？"],["范總經理孝倫：我們是在今年初開工，在這個之後成運公司提了幾次分包計畫送審，但是我們的顧問團隊有意見，所以請它再修正，至於同步的一些細緻的工作則是同步在展開。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在具體的問，到時候時間到了，這個系統真的能用嗎？以我目前看來，整個進度緩慢得不得了，為什麼會緩慢得不得了？因為錯誤一開始就造成了嘛！你在挑選時挑了一個莫名其妙的廠商進來，當然後面問題一堆嘛！現在看起來是問題越來越嚴重啊！我著眼的事情是剛剛部長所講的，除了承認有問題、要檢討問題之外，下一個是目前這個問題到底要怎麼解決？","我看目前的進度是這個樣子，我們再往下看，目前提交的車輛行車管理系統設計文件，缺乏完整系統架構，也沒有充分對應到你的需求，這樣還走得下去嗎？這樣還走得下去嗎？國家重要的建設，挑到一個爛廠商，出現這樣的狀況，行車管理系統的設計文件沒有完整的系統架構、也沒有辦法符合業主，也就是你們的需求，這樣怎麼辦？"],["范總經理孝倫：報告委員，目前這個階段是處於細部設計的階段，按照里程碑，成運公司也在上周五提出它的細部設計成果，目前正由我們的顧問團隊審查中，我們會依照這個審查結果進行後續的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們到目前的進度都還是on 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Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃國昌","葉元之","蔡易餘","王美惠","蔡其昌"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華\n航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之\n飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附\n屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算；四、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預\n算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}