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有請何部長部長好 可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力了但是我們今天討論這個東西就是希望把這件事情釐清調查清楚還給社會一個公道部長 請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是目的良善目的良善 你們報告裡面寫的目的良善"},{"start":44.028,"end":69.261,"text":"主席你要不要暫停一下 讓那個 讓 主席要不要暫停一下時間 讓部長的情緒緩和一下好 我想 嗯 謝偏署長 確實有霸凌的行為確實有霸凌的行為 像破地牢上這樣的用語錯了 我們承認錯誤所以你調查就是確實 確實有霸凌的行為"},{"start":71.015,"end":71.716,"text":"我想要問這次勞動部的無姓同仁的親身的漢氏"},{"start":97.191,"end":111.079,"text":"為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知?難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎?看社群有事情才會做事情嗎?拖了4天不啟動調查的原因是什麼?委員我一直在本來就有在思考要啟動調查思考"},{"start":127.517,"end":128.798,"text":"家屬希望低調跟調查也是兩件事吧?"},{"start":155.821,"end":182.507,"text":"我想要問那啟動調查比較慢這些拖的時間難道會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論也就是我們所謂的壓新聞這就是讓大眾非常疑惑的地方所以如果是這樣的話我想現在是預算會期勞動部的這種媒體宣傳的經費是會有問題的因為這樣看起來你們延後調查就是有這種讓人家覺得壓新聞的過程"},{"start":185,"end":211.753,"text":"我沒有能力壓新聞好我等一下繼續另外我同樣想要問你因為你們18號得知拖到12號14號才開始訪談嘛那另外這個出勤打卡紀錄今天應該也很多人問過一切看起來沒有問題可是監視器他就是有加班但我想請問你們掌握這樣的情形有掌握到多久他這樣的情況有多久"},{"start":216.622,"end":217.383,"text":"你們有去訪談說這個"},{"start":242.405,"end":255.691,"text":"這麼多的工作量這個謝信長官也算是他們單位的直屬長官難道不知道嗎那這些工作甚至有可能是他直接交辦到無緣吧那你們有沒有去談他知不知道無緣加班的這個事實你是指謝信長官知不知道無緣加班的事實對你們有去問他嗎有調查問他嗎我想他不了解吧"},{"start":271.656,"end":285.661,"text":"你想他不了解,所以你調查裡面也沒有去問這件事,對不對?然後如果沒有談,那要怎麼知道長官做了什麼,還有什麼事情才是真正讓委員會壓力大到輕生的真正原因?這就是沒有調查清楚嘛。"},{"start":286.69,"end":302.597,"text":"所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反應遭到霸凌出情表上看起來正常那無論其他人怎麼反應申訴陳情這些上級長官都不會處理就一定要搞到出了人命新聞壓不下來才要處理囉"},{"start":304.628,"end":319.909,"text":"是嗎那我再問訪談相關人固然重要但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作的資料例如LINE、EMAIL等才可以更細入的更深入的去了解請問這部分有做調查嗎有嗎"},{"start":323.752,"end":324.733,"text":"好我請處長來回答好不好"},{"start":354.609,"end":354.629,"text":"部長．"},{"start":364.477,"end":383.032,"text":"我問你這個邏輯非常奇怪你認為家屬在這個無緣被霸凌輕生之後會去跟霸凌者講說不好意思喔就算我家人都被你們霸凌到死我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調不要上媒體這個邏輯就是就是這樣大眾就是這樣看的好回到調查結論就是兩個"},{"start":385.394,"end":412.424,"text":"現在你們說謝信這個可能要停職嘛對不對本來是說調職但是今天質詢了一天之後你受不了說停職好依問卷訪談及相關的證據顯示謝信長官沒有霸凌你剛剛也就說他是有霸凌是不是你也改口了嘛對不對不是委員我還是要再強調一次他有對其他的同仁霸凌對"},{"start":415.799,"end":442.59,"text":"那麼他是通過他對當事者也許他有霸凌是因為通過當通過這樣子層層傳導的方式而形成的所以我想下一個下一個結論喔我們我是要再問早上再繼續追問下去喔我想要請問一下喔這一次的調查裡面這些這些人都是這個謝信長官的舊事有沒有難道沒有迴避的問題嗎"},{"start":444.687,"end":466.097,"text":"包含著召集人,包含著黃琳娜次長,還有吳雅惠參事他們都不是調查小組成員都不是,但是他不在裡面,但是難道沒有這個相關的關係嗎?召集人在調查小組裡,但是其他的長官都在救市,這個有沒有,其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來押案子的問題?"},{"start":467.478,"end":484.1,"text":"這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方我要表達的事情告訴你的是這一次霸凌申訴調查小組只有兩位外部委員的加入只在小組的九分之二"},{"start":484.801,"end":485.441,"text":"我會處理最後我要繼續追問事發過程當中"},{"start":507.219,"end":532.952,"text":"你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或者是持案你跟署長能夠發誓問心聞愧的摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎?絕對沒有有的話你是不是有說要負起政治責任嘛對不對早上那是不是政治責任的意思是說要以下台以示負責是是嘛對不對好那我告訴你你就是有這樣的狀況"},{"start":535.253,"end":552.05,"text":"因為如果沒有施壓、施案的話我想要請問部長為什麼要通過黨的系統副秘書長何柏文去聯絡李雨祥一人我想問為什麼要這樣這不是施案我跟你講為什麼這樣可以說是有施壓嫌疑"},{"start":552.771,"end":569.92,"text":"因為議員的服務處、議員的手機這個都可以公開都可以找得到的你要聯絡議員服務處非常的簡單何必要透過黨的系統去聯絡議員呢這就好像是你找了你找了比如說你過去可能在"},{"start":571.02,"end":583.096,"text":"科建民總召委員的辦公室工作過然後呢科總召可能又跟某個委員關係特別好然後你明明可以直接找到那個委員然後你就是特別跟這個科總召說你幫我跟那個委員講一聲好不好"},{"start":583.96,"end":600.74,"text":"這樣子就是有間接讓人社會大眾覺得這叫做間接性的好像說我被關切了我是不是要小心一點因為你透過的是黨的系統所以我要告訴你這個東西就是間接性的施壓而且也可以視為想要試圖有試圖有嫌疑試圖要押案的這個狀況"},{"start":603.188,"end":629.637,"text":"委員你認為李議員他後來有停止對我的監督嗎?完全沒有啊沒有這種東西這種東西這只能夠說這樣子施壓不代表他一定會被你壓嘛對不對但是你這就是過程你用你透過黨的高層來告訴我就好像你說今天你找了這個高層來這裡跟一個議員說他找你喔這個勞動部長找你他會不會覺得說我好像被施壓了"},{"start":630.458,"end":647.105,"text":"就是這個樣子那我問你那你整個內容是什麼你有跟他聯絡上嗎跟誰跟這個議員那個李議員啊我本人嗎對那為什麼你要透過秘書那個副秘書長何柏文去聯絡這個議員呢"},{"start":649.656,"end":676.381,"text":"我們當然跟他聯繫上啊因為我們必須提供資料給委員給議員啊所以我請我的我請我的這個同仁慕瑤同仁提供資料給他是這樣而已我要告訴你也是部長你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的明袋那有證據現場如果有證據有沒有什麼證據不公開我想問聽說有不具名的說現場也有留下類似遺書的東西請問內容是什麼有嗎什麼現場"},{"start":679.861,"end":681.502,"text":"你們有沒有認真地去調查這件事情?"},{"start":706.346,"end":706.366,"text":"委員﹗"},{"start":730.168,"end":755.845,"text":"因為這個是家屬的痛啦我當然知道是家屬的痛我們都不希望憾事再發生所以我還是要回過頭來說基本上部長就是我只能說說你透過了外部人透過了黨的系統去聯繫爆料的明帶而且明帶的資料很好去聯繫我隨便上網找你就找得到這個李議員服務處的聯絡方式甚至議會都很容易找到"},{"start":756.545,"end":771.708,"text":"所以我要告訴你的是你這樣的行為就會讓人家覺得這不是詞案那什麼是詞案因為你明明有很正當的管道可以去聯繫的所以我要說那這樣子算不算需要負責任你在做這件事情之前你有沒有深思熟慮過"},{"start":785.725,"end":785.805,"text":"其實上﹖"},{"start":808.553,"end":825.976,"text":"事實上你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們說發生什麼事我來跟你報告我把資料跟你講但是你卻透過了同一個派系的永延會的副秘書長要去跟這個李議員講我跟你講這不是慈安什麼是慈安好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1342,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時54分）謝謝主席，有請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好，可以感覺出來你也承受很大的壓力，但是我們今天討論這個東西，就是希望把這件事情釐清、調查清楚，還給社會一個公道。部長，請先跟大眾說明一下什麼是「目的良善」，你們報告裡面寫的是「目的良善」……","主席，你要不要暫停一下時間，讓部長的情緒緩和一下？"],["主席：好，時間不計入。"],["何部長佩珊：我想謝分署長確實有霸凌的行為……"],["廖委員偉翔：確實有霸凌的行為。"],["何部長佩珊：「目的良善」這樣的用語錯了，我們承認錯誤。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你的調查就是確實有霸凌的行為？"],["何部長佩珊：「目的良善」的用語錯了，我們承認我們調查報告寫錯了，所以我們會依委員會的決議，再重做調查報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我看到早上的質詢中，你說他霸凌了很多一級主管，但是針對這個沒有直接霸凌，這個就讓大家覺得聽不下去了。我想要問，這次勞動部吳姓同仁輕生的憾事，為什麼悲劇發生在11月4號，卻要一直到11月8號才從社群媒體網路得知，難道我們勞動部的長官們都要看報紙才會做事嗎？要看社群有事情才會做事情嗎？拖了4天不啟動調查原因是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我本來就有在思考要啟動調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：思考？這個很扯的事情……"],["何部長佩珊：事情發生當天，其實我就有在思考這件事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：思考但是沒有調查，為什麼隔了這麼多天？理由是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：因為家屬他……"],["廖委員偉翔：你說家屬嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：家屬也希望低調，可是我想……"],["廖委員偉翔：你確定家屬希望低調？"],["何部長佩珊：我承認我們啟動調查比較慢了。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬希望低調跟啟動調查也是兩件事吧？"],["何部長佩珊：我承認我們啟動調查比較慢了，這點跟大家道歉。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要問，啟動調查比較慢，這些拖延的時間會不會讓人家覺得你們是在處理輿論，也就是我們所謂的壓新聞？這就是讓大家非常疑惑的地方，所以如果是這樣的話，我想下一次預算會期，勞動部的媒體宣傳經費是會有問題的，因為這樣看起來，你們延後調查就會讓人家覺得這是有壓新聞的過程。"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有能力壓新聞。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我等一下再繼續。另外，我同樣想要問你，因為你們11月8號得知後，拖到12號、14號才開始訪談。再來，關於出勤打卡紀錄，今天應該很多人問過了，一切看起來似乎沒有問題，可是看監視器後他就是有加班，但我想請問你們掌握到有這樣的情形多久了？他這樣的情況有多久了？"],["何部長佩珊：之前委員也有垂詢過，因為我們那個大樓的影帶紀錄只有保留15天，所以目前能掌握的大概也只有15天的紀錄，目前掌握的資料大概是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：吳員有這麼多的工作量，這個謝姓長官也算是他們單位的直屬長官，難道他不知道嗎？這些工作甚至有可能是他直接交辦給吳員吧！你們有沒有去訪談，他知不知道吳員加班這個事實？"],["何部長佩珊：你是指謝姓長官知不知道吳員加班的事實？"],["廖委員偉翔：對。你們有去問他嗎？有調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想他不了解吧！"],["廖委員偉翔：你想他不了解，所以你的調查裡面也沒有去問這件事嗎？對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我不知道，那次調查……"],["廖委員偉翔：如果沒有談，那又怎麼知道長官做了什麼，還有什麼事情才是真正讓吳員壓力大到會輕生的真正原因？這就是沒有調查清楚嘛！所以現在的結論就是如果本人不反映遭到霸凌，畢竟他出勤表上看起來正常，但無論其他人怎麼反映、申訴、陳情，這些上級長官都不會處理，就一定要搞到出了人命，新聞壓不下來才要處理囉？是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對不是這樣子。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要再問，訪談相關人員固然重要，但是要釐清調查真相的相關工作資料，例如LINE、email等才可以更深入地了解，請問這部分有做調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：調查委員他們是有根據這個來……"],["廖委員偉翔：LINE跟email都有去做進一步調查。好，為什麼有外流的錄音檔顯示謝姓長官施壓同仁晉升，然後還推說這是尊重家屬的意見，我想要問這到底是真的有問過家屬後的結果，還是這個謝姓長官假傳聖旨的一面之詞？"],["何部長佩珊：我請處長來回答，好不好？"],["廖委員偉翔：好。"],["姜處長碧琳：11月4日我們的人事室主任都是陪著家屬，當下家屬是有表達。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我問你，這個邏輯非常奇怪，你認為在吳員被霸凌輕生之後，家屬會向霸凌者說，不好意思！就算我的家人被你們霸凌到死，我還是希望你們這位始作俑者一直低調，不要上媒體？這個邏輯就是這樣、大眾就是這樣看的！","好，回到調查結論，就是二個，現在你們說謝姓長官可能要停職，對不對？本來是說調職，但是今天質詢了一天，你受不了就說停職。依問卷訪談及相關證據顯示，謝姓長官沒有霸凌，但你剛剛也說她是有霸凌，是不是？你也改口了，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，委員，我還是要再強調一次，她有對其他的同仁霸凌……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以？"],["何部長佩珊：她有霸凌是因為透過這樣層層傳導的方式而形成的。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以我想下一個結論，請問一下，在這次的調查裡面，這些人都是謝姓長官的舊識，難道沒有迴避的問題嗎？包含召集人、包含黃玲娜次長及吳雅慧參事，這些……"],["何部長佩珊：他們都不是調查小組的成員。"],["廖委員偉翔：都不是？雖然他們不在裡面，但是難道沒有相關的關係嗎？召集人在調查小組裡，但其他長官都是她的舊識，其中有沒有牽扯到大家共同來壓案子的問題，這也是要求你們調查很重要的地方。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，黃玲娜次長是新任的次長，吳雅慧參事……他們並沒有參與調查工作、也沒有參與……"],["廖委員偉翔：我要告訴你，這次霸凌申訴調查小組只有2位外部委員加入、只占小組的九分之二，大部分都是內部成員組成，這樣如何讓社會感覺有公信力？未來這個部分是不是應該要改善？不只是增加外部人員的比例，就算是外部人員也要嚴格要求迴避，未來這個部分是不是應該要這樣處理？"],["何部長佩珊：我會處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：最後我要繼續追問，事發過程當中，你有沒有嘗試要把事情壓掉或吃案？你和署長能夠發誓問心無愧，並摸著你們的良心說完全沒有嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：有的話，早上你是不是說過要負起政治責任？政治責任的意思是不是要下台以示負責？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：是嘛！對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我告訴你，你就是有這樣的狀況。如果沒有施壓吃案的話，我想要請問部長，為什麼要通過黨的系統，由副秘書長何博文聯絡李宇翔議員？我想問為什麼要這樣做？"],["何部長佩珊：這不是吃案，這也不是施壓。"],["廖委員偉翔：我告訴你，為什麼這樣可以說是有施壓的嫌疑？因為議員的服務處、議員的手機都是公開的、都可以找得到，你要連絡議員服務處非常簡單，何必要透過黨的系統去連絡議員呢？譬如你過去可能在柯建銘總召的辦公室工作過，柯總召可能又與某位委員的關係特別好，明明你可以直接找到那位委員，但是你卻特別拜託柯總召去向那位委員講一聲，這樣就讓社會大眾覺得是間接性的。覺得自己好像是被關切了，是不是要小心一點？因為你透過的是黨的系統，所以我要告訴你，這個東西就是間接性的施壓，而且可以視為有嫌疑試圖壓案的狀況。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你認為李議員後來有停止對我的監督嗎？完全沒有啊！對啊！所以我沒有要試圖吃案。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣的施壓並不代表他一定會被你壓嘛！對不對？但是你這個就是過程，你透過黨的高層來告訴我，就好像今天你找高層告訴一個議員說勞動部長找你，他會不會覺得自己好像被施壓了？就是這個樣子。"],["何部長佩珊：因為我與他之間的交集……"],["廖委員偉翔：整個內容是什麼？你有跟他連絡上嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：跟誰？"],["廖委員偉翔：李議員。"],["何部長佩珊：我本人嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：對，為什麼你要透過副秘書長何博文去連絡這個議員呢？"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然要聯繫上，因為我們必須提供資料給議員啊！所以我請我的幕僚同仁提供資料給他，就是這樣而已。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要告訴你，部長，你居然透過外部的第三人去聯繫爆料的民代，我想問現場有沒有什麼證據不公開？聽說有不具名人士表示，現場有留下疑似遺書的東西，請問內容是什麼？有嗎？沒有公開，內容是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我們得尊重家屬，這個不能公開。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有去調查過嗎？內容與霸凌有沒有關係？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有看過啊！但是我們不能公開這些東西。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬不同意公開，對不對？"],["何部長佩珊：我們要尊重家屬。"],["廖委員偉翔：家屬有說同意或不同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：如果委員想了解，我們得去問過家屬。"],["廖委員偉翔：你們有沒有認真調查這件事情？"],["何部長佩珊：是，當然我們都去了解……"],["廖委員偉翔：它的內容到底是什麼？我想問你，家屬有確切表示不想讓人家知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，容我們尊重家屬，好嗎？"],["廖委員偉翔：有一部分是告訴家屬、有一部分是針對他在職場的事，有提到嗎？有提到他在職場上的相關資料嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為這個是家屬的痛啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：我當然知道是家屬的痛，我們都不希望憾事再發生。"],["何部長佩珊：對，如果你想要了解……"],["廖委員偉翔：我還是要回過頭來說，基本上，你透過外部的人、透過黨的系統去聯繫爆料的民代，其實民代的聯繫資料很容易尋得，隨便上網找就能找得到李議員服務處的聯絡方式，甚至在議會也都很容易找到，因此，我要告訴你，你這樣的行為就讓人覺得，這不是吃案，什麼是吃案？因你明明有很正當的管道可以聯繫，所以我要說這樣算不算是需要負責任？你在做這件事情之前，有沒有深思熟慮過？"],["何部長佩珊：我不認為這是吃案。"],["廖委員偉翔：你不認為這是吃案？你還是不認為這是吃案？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：你透過黨的系統去聯繫爆料的民意代表，還說這不是吃案？"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有那樣的意圖。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我希望全國觀眾可以思考這個問題，這樣究竟有沒有間接施壓？這樣究竟是不是想要間接的壓新聞、間接的要人家不要再報下去了？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上……"],["廖委員偉翔：事實上，你可以用很正當的管道去告訴他們發生什麼事，我來向你報告、我把資料提供給你，但是你卻透過同一個派系的、湧言會的副秘書長去找李議員講，這不是吃案，什麼是吃案？好，謝謝。"],["主席（盧委員縣一代）：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}