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主席麻煩請我們郭智慧部長請進入郭部長來 部長委員好延續昨天在院會齁持續在跟您做請教你有受訪或者說你在答詢的時候有講到是說即便是台電今年追加千億明年再補補千億明年還是會虧損是不是"},{"start":40.097,"end":48.077,"text":"台電明年還是會虧損這你講的不是你講的不是嗎你答詢的時候你講的明年還是會虧損"},{"start":50.612,"end":70.049,"text":"累虧沒辦法累虧沒有辦法完全來處理啦累虧目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分但是這個已經是老命題了嘛我們講是說如果說我們的原物料我們的發電方式我們的結構不改變的話你再怎麼樣虧損都還再怎麼樣的補貼都還是虧損啊"},{"start":72.771,"end":98.184,"text":"那羊毛出在羊身上一定還是所有的納稅人來買單,不是嗎?報告委員,我想從很多的數字上面來可以看得出來台電是一直在進步那造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因第一個原因就是我們的材料的成本非常的高而且這些材料成本是從國外買進來的就國際原物料上漲嘛但原物料起起疊疊可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損"},{"start":99.645,"end":115.061,"text":"我們沒有因為看到說國際原物料違規到原本的價格之後我們台電就不虧損因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的這部分也就是說我們對電價對從用電物裡面收到的這個價格"},{"start":116.542,"end":134.393,"text":"事實上沒有辦法讓我們反映,有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本。譬如說我們凍漲啊,或者是對民生的這個部分,我們即使賣給,我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格,還是虧錢。電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治利介入?"},{"start":139.575,"end":164.925,"text":"電價審議委員會是獨立自主的是你又講獨立自主可是你又講是說現在沒有辦法如實反映電價我覺得聽不懂你們的邏輯這個是邏輯非常正確的完全聽不懂你們的邏輯來部長我再確認一下你今天的中午有在受訪講是說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六七成是不是是媒體問的你看哪一份民調"},{"start":167.934,"end":196.65,"text":"媒體告訴我的啊你講是說他看郭志輝看相關核電民調支持已有六七成民主國家是多數的多數決所以核能共識這個命題不難你是看哪一份民調我就是說問那個媒體啊看哪個媒體問我呢但是你認為說核能共識在台灣有沒有多數決有沒有共識我認為台灣是一個民主的國家有沒有共識了現在"},{"start":197.697,"end":200.618,"text":"那這個可能要再討論嗎?"},{"start":200.618,"end":220.584,"text":"現在我們在總統府部長我還本來想說的話今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊講說共識決 郭部長說已經有了而核能安全在台灣也不難我也同意啊 因為我們有核安會啊那剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理"},{"start":222.344,"end":246.909,"text":"就是這三原則嗎?就是你現在你又改口又不敢承認你自己講了一個共識訣我們還想說說民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚不到兩個小時你又改口了我沒有要套你的話這明明就是你自己的話啊你去看一下媒體報導好不好那你要不要更正?"},{"start":249.451,"end":258.563,"text":"要不要要求媒體更正我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告媒體問我說六七層部長來啦最後一個人的意見"},{"start":260.134,"end":288.66,"text":"部長真的說實在話你在擔任部長之前當董事長啊我覺得你的尬子還比較有一點啦但是當了部長之後真的跌跌死、扁扁背好像台灣的現況跟我們生活經濟部生活是完全是平行時空稍微已經站起來我只是請教最後一點我是經濟部長我必須要發表行政院整體的運作是所以說你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛聽好本席的問題啊"},{"start":289.58,"end":312.16,"text":"那現在河山廠的二號機正在稅休稅休會到什麼時候12月上旬12月上旬那12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電依法還是要啟動依法還是要啟動那我們會到什麼時候來做廚藝明年的5月那從12月到明年5月這中間河山廠二號機會不會產生核廢料"},{"start":318.12,"end":333.939,"text":"如果說運轉的話會不會?當然會阿是啊那現在民進黨政府不會一直在講是說我要的三個原則和安、共識以及核廢料處理那如果說你現在沒有辦法有這個處理的方式標準的話你怎麼有辦法來重啟?好 謝謝"},{"start":336.264,"end":357.671,"text":"他是在運作的現在是不是就已經有現在是不是已經有卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果說我要研議核能或說我要用核能發電的話我要用新核能那你現在核三廠的二號機你稅收完之後你這是新核能還是舊核能核三廠二號機算是新核能還是舊核能"},{"start":359.507,"end":363.149,"text":"核生廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能?"},{"start":363.149,"end":380.281,"text":"舊核能所以在你們的主政之下即便是現在我有這三前提但是我要用電的時候我還是要用就是要把它給用好用滿這就你的答案 這不是法律規定啊這不是法律規定你也沒選擇如果說現在台灣能源夠的話你也可以不要用啊"},{"start":383.463,"end":388.472,"text":"這重點是現在台灣能源不夠所以你們才會連一支一毫的電你們都要用阿不是嗎?"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:01.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:04.945000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請郭智輝部長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:04.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:13.751000+08:00","text":"請經濟部郭部長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:13.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:13.952000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:14.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:26.981000+08:00","text":"部長，延續昨天在院會的持續再跟您做請教，你受訪或者是你在答詢的時候有講到即便是台電今年追加千億、明年再撥補千億，明年還是會虧損，是不是？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:32.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:34.686000+08:00","text":"台電明年還是會虧損，這是你講的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:34.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:35.686000+08:00","text":"這個我請台電來做比較詳細的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:35.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:37.353000+08:00","text":"不是啊，這是你講的，不是嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:37.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:39.077000+08:00","text":"你答詢的時候講的啊，說明年還是會虧損。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"曾董事長文生","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:39.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:42.193000+08:00","text":"是累虧，沒辦法完全……累虧？","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:42.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:42.533000+08:00","text":"沒辦法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:43.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:47.657000+08:00","text":"累虧沒有辦法完全來處理。累虧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:47.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:01.029000+08:00","text":"目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分，但是這個已經是老命題了，我們講的是如果我們的原物料、我們的發電方式、我們的結構不改變的話，再怎麼樣補貼都還是虧損啊。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:04.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:08.453000+08:00","text":"羊毛出在羊身上，一定還是所有的納稅人來買單，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:08.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:24.282000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想從很多的數字上面可以看得出來台電是一直在進步的，造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因，第一個原因就是我們的材料成本非常的高，而且這些材料是從國外買進來的，所以造就我們……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:24.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:35.790000+08:00","text":"就是國際原物料上漲嘛，但原物料起起跌跌，可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損，我們沒有看到因為國際原物料回歸到原本的價格之後台電就不虧損。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:35.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:03.812000+08:00","text":"沒有，報告委員，因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的部分，也就是我們對電價、從用電戶收到的這個價格事實上有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本的，譬如我們凍漲或者是對民生部分，我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格還是虧錢，1度電虧1元。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:03.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:05.373000+08:00","text":"所以我們電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治力介入？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:10.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:12.296000+08:00","text":"電價審議委員會是獨立自主的，而且……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:12.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:16.978000+08:00","text":"你講獨立自主，可是你又講現在沒有辦法如實反映電價……對。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:16.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:19.979000+08:00","text":"我就聽不懂你們的邏輯。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:19.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:21.099000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯是非常正確的啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:21.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:23.600000+08:00","text":"完全聽不懂你們的邏輯！因為……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:23.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:33.204000+08:00","text":"來，部長，我再確認一下，你今天中午有受訪說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六、七成了，是不是？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:33.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:34.184000+08:00","text":"是媒體問的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:35.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:35.925000+08:00","text":"你看哪一份民調？啊？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:35.925000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:38.934000+08:00","text":"你看哪一份民調？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:38.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:39.935000+08:00","text":"是媒體告訴我的啊，應該要問媒體呀！","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:41.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:54.903000+08:00","text":"你是說郭智輝看相關核電民調支持已有六、七成，民主國家是多數的多數決，所以核能共識這個命題不難。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:54.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:56.344000+08:00","text":"你是看哪一份民調？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:56.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:58.925000+08:00","text":"我就是說那要問那個媒體啊，看是哪個媒體問我的。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:59.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:03.267000+08:00","text":"但是你認為核能共識在臺灣有沒有多數決？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:03.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:04.328000+08:00","text":"有沒有共識？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:04.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:06.489000+08:00","text":"我認為臺灣是一個民主的國家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:06.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:07.350000+08:00","text":"現在有沒有共識了？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:09.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:11.618000+08:00","text":"這個可能要再討論，現在國家……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:11.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:12.618000+08:00","text":"又再討論？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:12.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:13.858000+08:00","text":"我們在總統府能源會議上……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:13.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:14.939000+08:00","text":"部長，我還本來想：哇！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:16.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:27.362000+08:00","text":"今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊說共識決，郭部長說已經有了，而核能安全在臺灣也不難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:27.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:34.484000+08:00","text":"我也同意啊，因為我們有核安會，剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理，就是這三原則嘛！是啊！","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:35.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:35.524000+08:00","text":"所以你現在你又改口……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:35.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:35.844000+08:00","text":"我沒有改口……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:37.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:40.985000+08:00","text":"又不敢承認，你自己講了一個共識決……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:40.985000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:42.506000+08:00","text":"報告委員，你們不能斷章取義……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷：我們還想","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:42.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:45.826000+08:00","text":"哇，民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚的。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷：我們還想","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:46.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:48.507000+08:00","text":"但不到兩個小時你又改口了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:48.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:50.887000+08:00","text":"不是，你們都用不同的話來套我的回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:50.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:55.088000+08:00","text":"我沒有要套你的話，這明明就是你自己的話啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:55.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:56.088000+08:00","text":"不是我自己的話，那個是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:55.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:56.648000+08:00","text":"你自己去看一下媒體報導好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:56.648000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:57.648000+08:00","text":"媒體不代表我嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:56.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:57.889000+08:00","text":"那你要不要更正？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:00.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:01.592000+08:00","text":"要不要要求媒體更正？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:01.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:07.380000+08:00","text":"我怎麼……我沒有更正啊，我不需要更正，我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告，是媒體問我，六、七成那是不是代表多數人的意見。","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:07.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:26.297000+08:00","text":"部長，來啦，最後啦……誒，部長，真的說實在話，你在擔任部長之前當董事長，我覺得你還比較有一點guts，但是當了部長之後真的是捏著怕它死了、放手又怕它飛了，好像臺灣的現況跟經濟部的生活完全是平行的時空。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:26.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:27.297000+08:00","text":"No、No、No！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:27.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:28.297000+08:00","text":"委員我跟你報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:27.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:30.778000+08:00","text":"召委已經站起來了，我只說了一點……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:30.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:34.499000+08:00","text":"委員，我是經濟部長，我必須要follow行政院整體的運作。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:35.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:37.759000+08:00","text":"是，所以你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:38.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:45.404000+08:00","text":"聽好本席的問題，現在核三廠的2號機正在歲修，歲修會到什麼時候？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:48.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:49.308000+08:00","text":"12月上旬。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:49.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:51.710000+08:00","text":"12月上旬，12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:51.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:54.913000+08:00","text":"依法還是要啟動啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:54.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:56.474000+08:00","text":"依法還是要啟動？對啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:56.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:58.316000+08:00","text":"那我們會到什麼時候來做除役？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:58.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:59.577000+08:00","text":"明年的5月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:00.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:03.140000+08:00","text":"那從12月到明年5月這中間，核三廠2號機會不會產生核廢料？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:09.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:11.603000+08:00","text":"如果運轉的話會不會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:11.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:11.963000+08:00","text":"當然會啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:12.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:19.673000+08:00","text":"是啊，那現在民進黨政府不是一直在講要有三個原則：核安、共識以及核廢料處理。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:20.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:24.919000+08:00","text":"如果你現在沒有辦法有這個處理方式的標準的話，你怎麼有辦法來重啟？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:24.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:24.939000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:27.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:29.265000+08:00","text":"不是，它是在運作的……是啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:29.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:31.165000+08:00","text":"我們現在是在核安法裡面規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:31.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:32.366000+08:00","text":"現在是不是就已經有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:32.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:33.506000+08:00","text":"現在是不是已經有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:33.506000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:34.506000+08:00","text":"現在沒有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:33.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:45.130000+08:00","text":"卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果要延役核能或是要用核能發電的話要用新核能，那現在核三廠的2號機歲修完之後，你是要新核能還是舊核能？……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:45.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:46.230000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，我們現在是在講過去所產生的核廢料沒有辦法處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:46.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:53.088000+08:00","text":"核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:53.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:54.088000+08:00","text":"洪委員，你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:54.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:55.088000+08:00","text":"核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？舊。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:55.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:56.088000+08:00","text":"舊核能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:56.088000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:57.088000+08:00","text":"謝謝，發言時間已過……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:54.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:05.617000+08:00","text":"所以在你們的主政之下，即便是現在有這三前提，但是我要用電的時候我還是要用，就是要把它給用好用滿，這就是你的答案啊。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:05.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:06.617000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，洪委員，謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:05.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:06.678000+08:00","text":"這是法律規定啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:07.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:08.599000+08:00","text":"這不是法律規定，你也可以選擇……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"郭部長智輝","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:08.599000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:09.599000+08:00","text":"是啊，是核安法上面的規定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:08.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:11.261000+08:00","text":"如果現在臺灣能源夠的話，你也可以不要用啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:11.261000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:14.463000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:14.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:19.472000+08:00","text":"重點是現在臺灣能源不夠，所以你們才會連一絲一毫的電都要用啊，不是嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:19.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:25.686286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝、謝謝、謝謝，要維持每一個委員發言公平性。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:25.986286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:27.700571+08:00","text":"沒有問題，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:28.000571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:30.857714+08:00","text":"今天我特別給你4加4。有嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:31.157714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:32.586286+08:00","text":"有4加4嗎？有啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:32.886286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:33.886286+08:00","text":"沒有喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:34.186286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:35.186286+08:00","text":"4加3.5啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:35.486286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:36.486286+08:00","text":"4分加40秒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:36.786286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:46.786286+08:00","text":"如果部長能夠都回答問題的話，我們不會浪費那麼多時間，很多時間都是部長浪費的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:47.086286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:48.800571+08:00","text":"好，部長請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:49.100571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.957714+08:00","text":"下一位質詢請吳春城、吳春城、吳春城不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:54.257714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:56.543429+08:00","text":"請陳冠廷委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時6分）主席，麻煩請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請經濟部郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，延續昨天在院會的持續再跟您做請教，你受訪或者是你在答詢的時候有講到即便是台電今年追加千億、明年再撥補千億，明年還是會虧損，是不是？台電明年還是會虧損，這是你講的。"],["郭部長智輝：這個我請台電來做比較詳細的……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，這是你講的，不是嗎？你答詢的時候講的啊，說明年還是會虧損。"],["曾董事長文生：是累虧，沒辦法完全……"],["洪委員孟楷：累虧？沒辦法？"],["郭部長智輝：累虧沒有辦法完全來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：累虧？目前大家都推給說是原物料上漲的部分，但是這個已經是老命題了，我們講的是如果我們的原物料、我們的發電方式、我們的結構不改變的話，再怎麼樣補貼都還是虧損啊。羊毛出在羊身上，一定還是所有的納稅人來買單，不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想從很多的數字上面可以看得出來台電是一直在進步的，造成台電虧損的大概兩個原因，第一個原因就是我們的材料成本非常的高，而且這些材料是從國外買進來的，所以造就我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是國際原物料上漲嘛，但原物料起起跌跌，可是我們一直看到的是持續的虧損，我們沒有看到因為國際原物料回歸到原本的價格之後台電就不虧損。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，報告委員，因為這個就是您剛剛所指導的部分，也就是我們對電價、從用電戶收到的這個價格事實上有一部分是沒有辦法反映成本的，譬如我們凍漲或者是對民生部分，我們現在即使賣給民生的這個價格還是虧錢，1度電虧1元。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們電價審議委員會到底有沒有政治力介入？"],["郭部長智輝：電價審議委員會是獨立自主的，而且……"],["洪委員孟楷：你講獨立自主，可是你又講現在沒有辦法如實反映電價……"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我就聽不懂你們的邏輯。"],["郭部長智輝：這個邏輯是非常正確的啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：完全聽不懂你們的邏輯！"],["郭部長智輝：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，部長，我再確認一下，你今天中午有受訪說你看相關的核能民調支持已經有六、七成了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是媒體問的。"],["洪委員孟楷：你看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：啊？"],["洪委員孟楷：你看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：是媒體告訴我的啊，應該要問媒體呀！"],["洪委員孟楷：你是說郭智輝看相關核電民調支持已有六、七成，民主國家是多數的多數決，所以核能共識這個命題不難。你是看哪一份民調？"],["郭部長智輝：我就是說那要問那個媒體啊，看是哪個媒體問我的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你認為核能共識在臺灣有沒有多數決？有沒有共識？"],["郭部長智輝：我認為臺灣是一個民主的國家。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在有沒有共識了？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可能要再討論，現在國家……"],["洪委員孟楷：又再討論？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在總統府能源會議上……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我還本來想：哇！今天聯合新聞網出來的快訊說共識決，郭部長說已經有了，而核能安全在臺灣也不難。我也同意啊，因為我們有核安會，剩下就是核廢料問題怎麼處理，就是這三原則嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你現在你又改口……"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有改口……"],["洪委員孟楷：又不敢承認，你自己講了一個共識決……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你們不能斷章取義……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們還想：哇，民進黨政府裡面還有一個腦袋相對比較清楚的。但不到兩個小時你又改口了。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你們都用不同的話來套我的回應。"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有要套你的話，這明明就是你自己的話啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是我自己的話，那個是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你自己去看一下媒體報導好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：媒體不代表我嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：那你要不要更正？要不要要求媒體更正？"],["郭部長智輝：我怎麼……我沒有更正啊，我不需要更正，我還是在這裡跟委員直接報告，是媒體問我，六、七成那是不是代表多數人的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，來啦，最後啦……誒，部長，真的說實在話，你在擔任部長之前當董事長，我覺得你還比較有一點guts，但是當了部長之後真的是捏著怕它死了、放手又怕它飛了，好像臺灣的現況跟經濟部的生活完全是平行的時空。"],["郭部長智輝：No、No、No！委員我跟你報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：召委已經站起來了，我只說了一點……"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我是經濟部長，我必須要follow行政院整體的運作。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以你就是執行民進黨政府的意志嘛！聽好本席的問題，現在核三廠的2號機正在歲修，歲修會到什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：12月上旬。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月上旬，12月上旬之後會不會再重新啟動發電？"],["郭部長智輝：依法還是要啟動啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：依法還是要啟動？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們會到什麼時候來做除役？"],["郭部長智輝：明年的5月。"],["洪委員孟楷：那從12月到明年5月這中間，核三廠2號機會不會產生核廢料？如果運轉的話會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：當然會啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那現在民進黨政府不是一直在講要有三個原則：核安、共識以及核廢料處理。如果你現在沒有辦法有這個處理方式的標準的話，你怎麼有辦法來重啟？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，它是在運作的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是在核安法裡面規範。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是不是就已經有？現在是不是已經有？"],["郭部長智輝：現在沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：卓榮泰院長是不是有講如果要延役核能或是要用核能發電的話要用新核能，那現在核三廠的2號機歲修完之後，你是要新核能還是舊核能？……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有，我們現在是在講過去所產生的核廢料沒有辦法處理……"],["洪委員孟楷：核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？"],["主席：洪委員，你……"],["洪委員孟楷：核三廠2號機算是新核能還是舊核能？"],["郭部長智輝：舊。"],["洪委員孟楷：舊核能……"],["主席：謝謝，發言時間已過……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以在你們的主政之下，即便是現在有這三前提，但是我要用電的時候我還是要用，就是要把它給用好用滿，這就是你的答案啊。"],["主席：好，謝謝，洪委員，謝謝……"],["郭部長智輝：這是法律規定啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是法律規定，你也可以選擇……"],["郭部長智輝：是啊，是核安法上面的規定……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果現在臺灣能源夠的話，你也可以不要用啊！"],["主席：好，謝謝……"],["洪委員孟楷：重點是現在臺灣能源不夠，所以你們才會連一絲一毫的電都要用啊，不是嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝、謝謝、謝謝，要維持每一個委員發言公平性。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有問題，謝謝。"],["主席：今天我特別給你4加4。"],["洪委員孟楷：有嗎？有4加4嗎？"],["主席：有啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有喔！"],["主席：4加3.5啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：4分加40秒。如果部長能夠都回答問題的話，我們不會浪費那麼多時間，很多時間都是部長浪費的。"],["主席：好，部長請回座。","下一位質詢請吳春城、吳春城、吳春城不在。","請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-19-15","speakers":["邱志偉","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","邱議瑩","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","蔡易餘","陳超明","羅智強","賴士葆","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","呂玉玲","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","葉元之","林德福"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查 114 年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣電力股份有限公\n司、台灣自來水股份有限公司（詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}