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MANGA"},{"start":538.26,"end":539.647,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":661.011,"end":661.661,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1122.39,"end":1123.146,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1264.768,"end":1266.661,"text":"主席"},{"start":1374.133,"end":1377.598,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":1403.865,"end":1403.965,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":1854.841,"end":1857.366,"text":"好我們繼續開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀邀請經濟部長列席報告業務概況．並備質詢宣讀完畢"},{"start":1868.035,"end":1890.245,"text":"好本日議程排定經濟部的業務報告那因為今天來列席的經濟部的官員蠻多的所以我們先介紹一下列席的官員首先當然還是跟大家介紹經濟部長王美花王部長祖密楊志清楊祖密綜合規劃司司長莊明池"},{"start":1892.34,"end":1913.924,"text":"產業技術司司長邱求慧投資促進司司長張明斌投資審議司司長楊淑玲國營事業管理司司長胡文忠法治司司長羅翠玲秘書處處長魏世剛人事處處長陳素芝政風處長廖長興"},{"start":1923.154,"end":1929.536,"text":"會計處長黃宏文統計處長黃於玲資訊處長林聰仁接下來是產發署蘇文玲署長商業發展署產發署連錦章署長國際貿易署江文若署長能源署游政委署長"},{"start":1950.683,"end":1966.954,"text":"中小及新創企業署何進昌署長、學歷署賴建信署長、智慧財產局廖承威廖局長、產業園區管理局局長楊伯耕楊局長、標準檢驗局陳怡玲局長、"},{"start":1973.245,"end":1997.57,"text":"地質調查及礦業管理中心主任徐明宏徐主任經貿人員培訓所李明喜李所長工商輔導中心雲瑞龍主任接下來介紹的是臺電公司王耀廷總經理臺糖公司楊明洲董事長自來水公司李嘉榮董事長"},{"start":1998.806,"end":2007.207,"text":"中郵董事長李順清李董事長以上接下來我們就請經濟部王美花部長進行報告"},{"start":2022.033,"end":2047.602,"text":"主席、各位委員那經濟部的業務比較繁多我花一點點時間跟各位做一個整體的介紹那第一個在當前環境下面在去年全球壟在高通膨、高利率、中端的需求走弱那抑制了各國經濟成長的動能臺灣不免受到影響但是在分散市場、多元布局跟產業轉型多年"},{"start":2049.202,"end":2057.685,"text":"推動的這樣基礎下台灣的去年出口金額連續第三年超過4300億美元民間的消費突破11兆歷史的新高尤其有8.3的成長創下近30年來最大的征服那各項的成績都展現了台灣經濟的能量跟韌性那今年國際的大環境仍然在地緣政治衝突這樣的風險變數下那國際的主要機構也認為今年的經濟"},{"start":2079.151,"end":2083.275,"text":"在不穩定中逐步復甦隨著全球通膨壓力的減緩產業去擴充化告一個段落全球的貿易動能有轉加國際的大機構預測今年全球的貿易量"},{"start":2094.464,"end":2112.45,"text":"會有顯著的成長從去年的不到1%會升到3.3%那有利於我國以外需導向為主的經濟體系那此外臺灣受惠於人工智慧、車用電子等新型科技應用的擴展我國半導體自通訊產業具有競爭的優勢再加上奧運、歐洲盃等運動題材對紡織製血傳統產業也有幫助那所以主計總署預測今年出口會逐劇回升"},{"start":2124.963,"end":2131.445,"text":"民間消費者在基本工資調升、軍公教跟企業調薪的帶動下也可以穩健的成長預估臺灣今年的經濟成長率可以達到3.43%那在地緣衝突、美中博弈、極端氣候這樣諸多風險下讓全球的經濟復甦仍然充滿的不確定性所以本部的市政會在韌性、安全的理念下持續建構強韌的水電網路"},{"start":2153.353,"end":2183.353,"text":"．"},{"start":2183.493,"end":2188.494,"text":"超過6成的現金製程產能由臺灣提供在各國相繼提出巨額的獎勵來吸引半導體投資的時候那我們在去年修正了產創條例10-2針對投入前瞻創新研發的技術跟採購現金製程設備提供投資體檢那今年呢2月到5月開始受理申請鼓勵這個我國居國際供應鏈關鍵地位的業者來加碼投資"},{"start":2211.578,"end":2230.947,"text":"．臺灣．"},{"start":2231.047,"end":2235.851,"text":"先進封裝以及主要產能都留在臺灣另外為了壯大臺灣半導體生態系也會持續推動半導體設備材料的在地化除了吸引美國、歐盟、日本、國際領先的半導體設備材料在臺灣投資超過470億美金新增採購超過200億以外今天也會輔導臺灣的業者投入奈米級製成的設備跟先進封裝材料"},{"start":2260.473,"end":2262.605,"text":"來提升在地化的一個供應鏈"},{"start":2264.657,"end":2280.421,"text":"AI將是帶動新一波產業投資跟突破數位轉型的關鍵台灣具有完整的AI伺服器供應鏈以及晶片研發的生態系加上完善的智慧產權保護已經成功爭取到全球AI晶片的兩大龍頭來台灣設立物流的運籌中心為台灣佈局AI打下基礎今年本部將結合精創台灣方案"},{"start":2290.384,"end":2317.159,"text":"﹚議員﹚"},{"start":2317.299,"end":2317.439,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":2343.039,"end":2343.079,"text":"主席"},{"start":2362.401,"end":2365.785,"text":"那在輔導傳產升級的部分那為了提供產業創新投資的誘因今年也將會來修訂產創條例10至1條除了延長原定這個到期適用的期限外也會研議來擴大投資低減的範圍範疇"},{"start":2381.563,"end":2389.469,"text":"到AI的應用跟淨零排放等等來應對全球產業數位發展跟減碳的趨勢那對於部分仍然面臨景氣影響的傳產跟中小企業本部也會持續這個疫後特別預算朝這個輔導業者地攤化、智慧化的轉型那去年已經輔導了超過4000家那今年也會持續讓這個專家團隊到場來服務"},{"start":2409.569,"end":2416.332,"text":"．配專案貸款、展延、還款期限等等融資以及用電優惠等措施讓業者可以穩健的經營。另外,受到ECFA部分產品取消關稅優惠的影響的產業本部也規劃了要透過異業聯盟加強海外脫銷例如我們整合石化機械紡織"},{"start":2431.678,"end":2433.72,"text":"那組團前往具潛力的而且個別廠商不易開拓的印度東協非洲等新興市場並且協助業者開發高質化差異化的產品來提升產品的國際競爭力"},{"start":2446.656,"end":2466.02,"text":"那好的員工可以讓企業提升競爭力並且創造獲利尤其中小企業吸納了臺灣八成的就業所以為了優化中小企業加薪的誘因我們提出中小企業發展條例36-2的修正案除了將原定要入日的時間再延長10年並且刪除了啟動的門檻使租稅的優惠常態化來適用同時也提高"},{"start":2474.641,"end":2481.485,"text":"新資抵減率到150那適用的新資範圍也會擴到6.2萬以這個這樣的一個門檻那在穩定基礎設施的部分那電力的穩定是攸關民生跟產業發展我們這個電力的供應除了投入新的再生能源外也擬妥中長期穩定供電的規劃那今年預計會新增443萬千瓦天然氣機組"},{"start":2503.016,"end":2509.3,"text":"那扣除除役的315萬幾組呢那供電的淨增加約120萬千瓦可以維持穩定供電而為了強化電網韌性呢今年也會投入720億來做電網韌性的相關工作那電價的調整部分呢那全世界都因為惡霧戰爭帶來國際性燃料成本的暴漲那臺灣透過臺電吸收了絕大多數的虧損"},{"start":2530.593,"end":2539.962,"text":"承擔了減緩通膨的任務,但是也因為未足而反映在電價調漲上造成台電的財務壓力。目前電價調漲方案尚未定案,未來會在審議會充分來討論。另外,核電研議的問題除了首先考慮核電的安全外,還涉及到相關法規的修改,必須兼顧專業性跟周延性。"},{"start":2556.396,"end":2572.301,"text":"後續要有河安會的安全審查另外河二用過的河南料棒目前沒有辦法取出干儲的設施也還沒有興建必須要等待地方政府同意河廢料的處理也需要取得社會的共識在水的部分臺灣風枯水期的差異在全球氣候變遷下確實也變成一個重要的議題本部將持續推動區域的備援工程"},{"start":2585.953,"end":2585.973,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":2604.847,"end":2631.876,"text":"翡翠原水管工程陶竹背原管線都預計在今年6月通水而霧溪鳥嘴潭仁宮湖在去年10月已經完成6個湖區的工程那今年可以完成6月的時候完成蓄水可以提升大台北新竹以及彰化南投等的供水韌性離島地區在澎湖及北七海的海淡廠在年底完工後也可以提升"},{"start":2632.176,"end":2632.576,"text":"在國際的挑戰上面"},{"start":2658.94,"end":2682.73,"text":"去年的COVID-19最大的共識是增加再生能源而發展再生能源也是我國經營轉型跟實現能源自主的關鍵我們以太陽光電跟離岸風電為發展的主力在拖年的努力之下那太陽光電去年新增2.7個Gigawatt創歷史的新高那累至到今年1月底併網量已經達到12.5Gigawatt那目前掌握足額岸源透過"},{"start":2686.952,"end":2692.234,"text":"各部會跟地方政府的合作努力來達成114年20GW的設置目標離岸風電到今年1月底已經累計設計了288座的風力機裝置容量達到2.3GW是世界上少數離岸風電突破2GW的國家今年會努力達到3GW"},{"start":2709.44,"end":2716.244,"text":"那麼另外也會提前布局浮動式的風場的釋放計畫讓我們離岸風力邁向這個深水區來發展另外今年也會將氫能跟地熱列為能沾、潛在能源的發展重點那氫能的部分國營企業會帶頭在氫能發電、工業跟運輸方面"},{"start":2730.673,"end":2734.654,"text":"來推動示範計畫目前臺電跟興達正在進行這個5%混氫的發電驗證跟中原來合作開發去碳燃氫的發電技術中鋼巨型鋼化廉廠的運轉中油公司會在年底建制全臺首座的"},{"start":2748.584,"end":2751.948,"text":"可移動式加薪站在地熱開發部分目前6個案場已經裝置7.29個MW今年預計會增加5個MW那今年的2月底已經完成了地熱相關探勘的辦法草案預告會盡快完成相關的程序"},{"start":2768.874,"end":2774.635,"text":"除了增加綠能以外也要讓企業買得到綠電那考量多數的國內企業比較缺乏國際的性品所以我們規劃透過綠電的性保機制來幫助企業跟綠電的業者來簽署企業的購售電合約目前正與國家融資保證中心溝通細節預計在第一季可以正式對外公布辦法那中小企業也可以透過公有或國營事業土地標售案場的"},{"start":2798.66,"end":2815.503,"text":"﹚"},{"start":2816.852,"end":2830.878,"text":"這個在這個COVID-28也提出2030年的能源效率改善效率要有2%增加到4%那臺灣從105年就開始透過能源轉型節能以及製程改善三個方向努力"},{"start":2831.578,"end":2856.523,"text":"過去5年已經實現這個年平均4%的能源效率的改善那在美國的能源效率委員會的國際評比中臺灣也從105年的13名提升到111年的第8名在亞洲的表現僅次於日本那我們會在這樣的基礎上全面提升產業跟住宅能源效用的效率達到深度的節能"},{"start":2857.563,"end":2882.774,"text":"那在產業方面我們透過投資低減、能源補助導入Exco的金融機制以及提升專業節能輔導等等來幫助產業來節電那另外今年也會持續提供10億元來補助商業服務業的這個節能設備的更換那另外也擴大補助的項目增加一級能效的冰箱瓦斯爐等等相關的節能汰換"},{"start":2884.54,"end":2907.774,"text":"主宰部分去年加電汰換已經補助了170萬台冷氣冰箱促成節電11億度今年再延長一年並且擴大推出瓦斯爐、瓦斯熱水器的補助有效這個住宅的節約另外針對歐盟在去年開始實施的CMAN的過渡期本部也啟動辦理相關的"},{"start":2910.936,"end":2928.108,"text":"CBAN產品和碳含量的四天工作跟申報說明會做了非常多的諮詢、一對一的服務等等並且主動關懷企業我們也成立了北中南的區域申報的服務窗口就計業者來申報解決企業在CBAN申報過程中遇到的問題"},{"start":2932.972,"end":2939.897,"text":"那在投資臺灣的部分投資臺灣三大方案到今年2月呢累計投資已經接近2.18兆帶動15萬人的就業讓臺灣的產業公立更加的完整那今年會新增投資2300億元"},{"start":2950.044,"end":2955.366,"text":"創造1.9萬人的目標持續壯大我國高階伺服器AI產業以及電動車等相關的供應鏈另外我們也前方會拓展對外投資的經貿關係推動赴新南向國家的投資那我們已經連續第三年新南向的投資都有超過50億"},{"start":2972.373,"end":2997.243,"text":"甚至連續兩年都超過對中國大陸的投資那臺灣的晶圓大廠赴日投資也建立了半導體供應鏈的合作典範不僅吸引日本電子汽車相關大企業入股帶動臺日雙方企業的合作也使得日本最大的半導體設備商跟材料商加碼在臺灣投資分別成立營運中心跟先進半導體材料廠那增強這個在臺灣半導體先進材料的生產跟技術支援"},{"start":3003.456,"end":3007.518,"text":"臺美關係向來緊密,雙方已經建立了臺美經濟繁榮夥伴對話以及科技技術跟投資的合作等交流管道那去年透過EPPD的就經濟脅迫供應鏈跟投資能源轉型永續跟安全等重大議題深入的交流另外臺美21次貿易世界倡議也在去年6月"},{"start":3025.767,"end":3028.57,"text":"簽署首批協定,持續進行第二階段談判,深化臺美貿易合作。臺歐盟部分持續透過貿易跟投資對話以及產業對話交流平臺推動雙方進一步的經貿合作。"},{"start":3041.561,"end":3060.273,"text":"因應國際需求的恢復全球貿易動能的回溫為了協助我商升取海外MIT的商機並且分散出口市場除了鞏固美日歐並且持續深耕新南向市場以外也積極擴大到中東、中南美跟非洲等新興市場今年預計會投入50億元來舉辦相關的脫銷團商機日等超過200項的脫銷活動"},{"start":3069.378,"end":3071.863,"text":"那過去幾年臺灣經歷前所未有的世紀疫情、百年大旱、二屋戰爭等危機政府以團隊合作突破挑戰"},{"start":3079.235,"end":3085.457,"text":"向全世界展現臺灣經濟的韌性那未來隨著產業競爭跟地緣競爭的加劇我們會遇到更多的挑戰但也會帶來新的商機本部會做好最佳的經濟掌舵手引導產業以AI驅動數位跟淨零雙轉型來深化全球多元布局吸引外資持續投資臺灣壯大臺灣"},{"start":3103.183,"end":3104.345,"text":"帶領臺灣暫穩國際公益內關鍵地位以上作簡單報告 敬請委員支持指教"},{"start":3115.207,"end":3137.91,"text":"謝謝王部長的報告我們現在要開始進行詢答委員質詢之前原力做以下幾點的宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記首先請登記第一位林戴化委員有請部長王部長"},{"start":3144.38,"end":3165.231,"text":"好,本席針對再生人員的後續除了建制之後後續的維運來做討論極端氣候下建立國家綠能穩定供應的機制那在零排的能源建成主力綠電也成為關鍵能源在你的簡報當中也提到去年在COP28"},{"start":3166.211,"end":3166.431,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3183.578,"end":3201.785,"text":"阿贊真後續可能形成的石油供應若沒有綠能的規劃能源的供應勢必困難好我國再生能源的裝置能量去確實是有大幅的成長在111年10月底不管是在太陽能光電風力到水力地了"},{"start":3202.901,"end":3225.843,"text":"目前本席所知道的我們再生能源也達發電佔比的9%了好那臺灣確實擁有好的綠能的地理條件我們有最佳的風潮在這個臺灣海峽我們有在太平洋西岸這個黑潮流量的流速都很好以及我們在亞熱帶當中的日照充足以及在環太平洋的火環"},{"start":3226.884,"end":3232.766,"text":"我們台灣也在這個火丸內那所以地的豐富我國確實擁有各型綠能的最佳場域但好的地理條件也有對應的地理問題綠能發展與氣候條件的正相關注意我這邊提的是氣候條件"},{"start":3244.249,"end":3249.292,"text":"所以這跟我後續的主張會有關係直觀來看我國各型的綠能軍面對不同的問題我們說有在台灣有好的這個風場但是呢夏季多颱風風機大型化下我們狹狹的空域如何兼顧民航軍機飛安與能源安全太陽能光電雖然我們在亞熱帶但是地狹人酬如何合理利用的有限國土資源我們雖然在這個"},{"start":3273.687,"end":3279.328,"text":"這個火黃帶當中既然是地熱發達火黃帶當中那一定是火山一定是這個很發達的一個地段所以它一定是多地震、地質破碎也導致我地下熱的水源涵養就困難雖然我們有這個海洋流的一個這樣的地主這樣的優良條件但是有黑潮那它一定是有海溝的地形水下工程難度就會劇增了"},{"start":3303.453,"end":3327.482,"text":"好我電力發電的風險管理好縱觀過去經濟部只要管一家公司就好叫做台電那只要管這家台電呢他就可以掌握全國的電力而先前又是大電廠的架構火力、核能、水力等電廠均由台電現場人員即使掌握狀態甚至可以緊急備用料件來替代好"},{"start":3329.482,"end":3354.138,"text":"對業自由化之後我們民間的綠燃電廠的地位等同台電好那你覺得民間電廠為了講求最佳化他都是委託建設甚至委託營運您覺得部長他會像台電一樣有緊急的現場人員去掌握狀況會有緊急的備用料件來支援現場的這個所"},{"start":3355.899,"end":3358.72,"text":"因為地理或大氣環境所衍生的電力設備故障嗎?"},{"start":3369.419,"end":3394.738,"text":"離岸一起的故障還打3分之1但說到這一點我本席就要替臺電同仁報不平在臺電的再生能源柱一共才200人他管什麼再生能源而已所以地熱、風力發電、太陽能這個全部他都管就200位甚至本席了解連一個主任都要去爬電桿"},{"start":3396.019,"end":3414.646,"text":"你看人員多麼吃緊。好,這麼所以也要請部長這邊瞭解多大面積的風產有多少種的發電設備要養護光是我出海一趟搭船來回所需的時間造成養護量能的巨大限制一艘工作船出海啊只能養護一座風塔"},{"start":3416.647,"end":3419.71,"text":"民營風場是佔大多數,其修復工作量必然更大於台電的維護養護需求"},{"start":3436.088,"end":3438.35,"text":"本席認為綠能政策要科學化的建立"},{"start":3459.585,"end":3483.567,"text":"科學管理分散式的電業的必要性什麼叫做科學管理我針對幾項幾點第一個要求民營電廠具備具備護員修復的量能不能僅靠他其發電才有收入的邏輯這是現況政府因強化監理民間業者的設備妥善率連我們私人的汽車"},{"start":3484.768,"end":3506.177,"text":"私人的汽車我們交通部都要求我們都要驗車了更何況重大的人員設施政府請人事生事壞第二個綠能場域通過環評之後的環境生態不能放任業者自行管理經濟部應該主動的承擔建設後面的環境資料收集責任及系統化的管理"},{"start":3507.097,"end":3528.666,"text":"我們都會要求業者這些綠電的業者他們會通報定期通報半年一次通報環境部的檢疫環境影響資訊本期要求針對這些業者同步提報給經濟部你們才好去做後續的收集甚至系統化的分析跟管理"},{"start":3529.926,"end":3547.899,"text":"而且呢我這還不包括所以我在這邊請你們研議一定要一定比例的綠電場域是以免環評的有環評的他一定會送環境部免環評的是沒有的好那免環評的這個綠電場應該納入政府的環境衝擊的監控好針對這個生態是如此那針對氣候呢"},{"start":3554.42,"end":3574.276,"text":"我就舉經管會經管會自112年起去年還要求本國銀行每年6月底前辦理前一年度的氣候風險的相關財務揭露而綠電非常大比例是以農資阿我相信阿這個部長你比我更清楚與其說我們支持系統商阿不如是支持這個風電系統商的財務規劃我想這句話才是重點"},{"start":3581.261,"end":3585.003,"text":"所以他的財務規劃金管會都要求說你氣候風險的財務規劃要揭露那你本身你的經濟部你對於氣候相關的管理是不是也應該要比照金管會的要求呢我這個綠電也好太陽能也好我的五級三級的地震我五級七級的颱風"},{"start":3603.852,"end":3623.416,"text":"所在造成氣候所影響的這個風場你要有多少的量能、能力 我有多少的濾備、配料都要準備啊那你怎麼知道要準備多少配料 你怎麼知道多少能力當然靠的就是科學管理長期的追蹤啊 3年5年後的分析要求電廠民營電廠也要做這樣的準備啊 否則你的濾電到時候就變成廢鐵了"},{"start":3630.765,"end":3636.329,"text":"好就是後續這當中只能夠一直能夠保持你現在所跟大家報告的這樣的量能啊好綠能政策在科學化的建立當中反觀我再講一次人原屬直接是規劃管理綠能的產業並卻沒有針對綠能氣候風險有生態風險的管理氣候風險的管理在電業自由化後與國家電力穩定供應進行監控人原屬不能只有管發多少電"},{"start":3660.905,"end":3674.693,"text":"更重要的是穩定發電的供給與調控這個是本席的重點因為以前這個電力調控只要由台電來扮演管理者就好但是綠能發電的電業自由化之後能源署當然得承擔起綠能場域的微氣象資料屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊這句話很重要"},{"start":3686.28,"end":3700.95,"text":"為綠能場域的為氣候的資料是屬於國家關鍵的戰略資訊只有持續的建立綠能場域的資料收集才能檢討修正我的綠能政策進行科學化的數據來支持國家綠能永續的發展"},{"start":3703.211,"end":3706.052,"text":"總結面對國際碳排的近鄰趨勢產業為製造出口導向的台灣綠能是不可不為的方向這也是要替我們民進黨執政黨來講為什麼強力的發展這個綠能發電本身也生以為農但是我覺得我們還是要很審慎的對後續在這個穩定供電跟調控上"},{"start":3730.759,"end":3746.562,"text":"經濟部面臨新型態的綠能明顯為完善的針對分散式電業的科學管理的機制我有三項的要求第一個請臺電於一個月內提供其經營綠電場域的再生能源養護、修復能力"},{"start":3748.963,"end":3754.248,"text":"材料量能及環境監管的資料規劃．並請經濟部．額外補助台電新增能力的所需經費．以作為規範民營電廠養父設備的依據．"},{"start":3765.279,"end":3767.1,"text":"第二,臺電做示範目前的電廠的營運狀況﹖請他們提出一個規劃案來﹖進而我經濟部能源署建立民營電廠防護及復原的規範﹖"},{"start":3780.928,"end":3789.291,"text":"以降低人為及氣候造成國家電力供應的危機也請經濟部能源署：我也請臺電建立各型綠能氣象風險與環境資訊監管的機制也以此依據你能源署建立起國中央級的綠能環境管理的機制以利要求民營電廠參照臺電的永續經營跟穩定供電部長你怎麼看呢"},{"start":3810.322,"end":3823.813,"text":"非常謝謝委員有系統的在呈現這幾個問題那委員這三個意見我們會按照委員的指示來辦理謝謝因為這個是目前能源署沒有去注意到的謝謝部長謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝接下來我們請邱益穎委員請做詢答謝謝主席我是不是請夏部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":3845.086,"end":3851.274,"text":"部長早部長今天幾個問題跟您請教最近大概大家對於食安的問題又開始重視"},{"start":3856.728,"end":3878.268,"text":"經濟部大概主責這所謂的公司登記我們看到這一家蘇丹紅進口蘇丹紅辣椒粉的這一家公司的這個負責人叫做李彥廷先生他用人頭分別成立了10家在同一個地址的10家的人頭公司經濟部說現在要開始清查我不曉得這個進度是如何"},{"start":3880.59,"end":3896.008,"text":"經濟部如何對於像類似這樣的人頭公司登記在同一個地址但是他不曉得有沒有實際在運作或者是出了事情就趕快再換一個負責人換一個公司這件事情經濟部的處理態度是什麼"},{"start":3897.149,"end":3902.113,"text":"謝謝所以這個在院裡面已經成立跨部會的小組來討論這個事情那現在我們經濟部就衛福部這邊如果給我們資料比如說A公司那這個A公司給我們之後我們就會就這個A公司同一個地址"},{"start":3912.782,"end":3925.845,"text":"或者負責人有沒有相同或者是其他的公司有沒有相同等等只要有一個相同我們就會把資料撈出來回饋給衛福部有需要等衛福部給你們資料比如說你的電腦裡頭應該很容易去撈出登記在相同地址的這樣的一個公司尤其是食品業者這個要防範成立人頭公司我覺得你們應該是趕快先去把這一些"},{"start":3942.128,"end":3944.749,"text":"类似的人头公司的资料都把它捞出来了。"},{"start":3961.997,"end":3983.768,"text":"外府部或者是農業部我覺得類似相關的不管是食安或者是其實很多的這一些所謂的人頭公司啦我覺得防堵人頭公司不只在食安的這一塊我們要去進行防堵可能很多的這一些虛擬的公司人頭的公司這一些可能經濟部也要去我們都會做最大的努力來協助"},{"start":3984.648,"end":3992.879,"text":"講到食安的問題就不能不談台糖公司的這個所謂的瘦肉精怡雲部長921比1的檢驗報告出來"},{"start":3998.939,"end":4011.71,"text":"我真的不曉得他真的是台糖會使用西布特羅這個瘦肉精嗎?看起來我們的食安辦已經公布了結果就是這是一個單一事件但他沒有辦法排除檢驗污染的風險921比1的調查結果"},{"start":4016.786,"end":4045.884,"text":"我相信大概國人都看得非常的清楚但是在這個過程當中對於台糖公司所造成的影響這個是你們台糖公司自己計算的啦大概這個事件影響的損失程度大概是5128萬大概是你可以計算出來的有形的損失無形的損失是台糖公司長年建立的這個商域因為這樣的一件"},{"start":4047.458,"end":4055.268,"text":"突如其來或者是不知從哪裡污染到的這樣的一件豬肉對台糖公司所造成的商域影響"},{"start":4057.392,"end":4061.813,"text":"這個價格是無法計算的我要請問部長跟台糖公司你們要不要求償要不要採取法律行動對於台中市政府來求償部長謝謝那我想這個食安辦前一陣子前幾天也開了會那確認在我們這個相關的飼養屠宰過程應該是都沒有問題所以我想對台糖來說最需要的是"},{"start":4085.459,"end":4087.66,"text":"回復他的信譽回復國人對台糖對國產豬的一個信心我想這個是最重要的那而在這個報告裡面呢最後對於為什麼會有一個單一簡體的這個部分的這樣的情形呢"},{"start":4103.069,"end":4122.953,"text":"確實是沒有辦法排除但是也沒辦法肯認是怎麼一回事所以這是一個羅生門啊為什麼會只有這一包或者是只有那一塊肉有西部特羅其他的是完全沒有但是就台糖所有的飼養的過程裡頭包括你的原料飼料進口完全不含西部特羅這個是完全確認的但是這樣的一個事件對於台糖所造成的損失我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦"},{"start":4132.673,"end":4159.477,"text":"即使台糖是國營公司我認為台糖不能就這麼算了啦你們的損失我覺得不止這個五千一百多萬欸那這個商域一旦被破壞了要重新回復名譽你要花多少的時間甚至你要花多少的心力、精神、金錢才有辦法所以我建議我是支持台糖公司提告、求償"},{"start":4161.226,"end":4167.753,"text":"那也讓任何的檢驗單位其實在對於這樣的事件的發布都應該要更審慎"},{"start":4170.046,"end":4193.445,"text":"董事長您同意我的看法嗎?謝謝委員對台堂的鼓勵啦因為根據食安辦的這個報告那我們的法律顧問目前也正在研擬相關的意見所以我們會根據法律顧問的這個法律意見書再來做一些研議不過我要跟委員報告就是今天的報紙也有報導台中市的食安辦"},{"start":4194.646,"end":4212.802,"text":"他們,台中市的13處他們的這個主管有提到他們也會包括這一次的檢驗方面有哪一些需要再精進的,我覺得台中市的...雙方都有意思要對這個單一事件來進行和解就是了啦,是不是這樣?我們會再嚴厲主席有意見,不要說和解啦,雙方要對這件事情來進行和談"},{"start":4225.786,"end":4232.253,"text":"這是我的質詢接下來我要請教部長您剛花了很長一段時間大概談到台灣的整個經濟的現況跟我們的不管是產業我們需要的電力的情況"},{"start":4245.067,"end":4265.497,"text":"這個RE100其實應該是現在的這些企業非常重視也非常在乎的事情嘛全球大概有350家的企業去響應了RE100台灣大概現在有31家那我要請教就是說到底RE100它要用到的一定是綠電台灣的綠電"},{"start":4268.12,"end":4297.077,"text":"到底夠不夠現在的31家不代表永遠只有這31家嘛你要踏入國際一定是還要持續使用一定要得到RE100的認證所以台灣的綠電到底夠不夠那這個部分我們其實每一季都滾動的檢討那滾動檢討的原因是在我們的供給面也都會增加那第二個需求面的這些廠商呢他也可能因為他的客戶的要求"},{"start":4297.637,"end":4306.559,"text":"或者他要可能時程上他有不同所以我們都會問他綠電的需求是怎麼樣的情形那也跟委員報告就是說他們對國際大廠給他們綠電的需求確實都有在增加部長我這邊拿到的資料我跟您確認一下就是說2023年我們的綠電供給量大概是265億度"},{"start":4323.304,"end":4347.739,"text":"高於當年的潛在需求量118億度所以我們看起來綠電的供給量是夠的但是你們實際的供轉量只有17億度其他的是不是大概都是拿去賣掉了那你們現在在去年推動了所謂的小額綠電交易這樣的一個平台從去年10月25號上架開始競標"},{"start":4350.521,"end":4358.924,"text":"我想要更進一步瞭解你們到底競標的成效是什麼?如果今天來不及回答的話是不是也請經濟部給本席資料?我跟委員說明那個17億度其實是指他原來賣給台電那後來跟台電分手了"},{"start":4368.228,"end":4368.248,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":4395.543,"end":4423.783,"text":"接下來我們請謝依峰委員請做詢談謝謝主席我想要請王部長請王部長委員好部長到底現在電價是要漲多少"},{"start":4425.01,"end":4428.214,"text":"是全面性還是只是工業大戶呢?"},{"start":4433.949,"end":4442.734,"text":"現在目前這個相關的工作小組正在相關的討論當中是執掌工業大戶然後像那個半導體業者還是應該這樣講就是說我們這幾天也讓大家知道對於台電的這個財務的虧損確實是蠻大的那所以我們第一個優先來爭取政府的補貼"},{"start":4456.101,"end":4471.561,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4471.561,"end":4471.601,"text":"12項實話的終止議"},{"start":4488.131,"end":4505.657,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4505.697,"end":4520.887,"text":"因為很多國外的買家跟他們要求就是你也知道就所謂的臺灣家他希望在臺灣以外的東南亞再設置新的生產的基地那對於"},{"start":4522.007,"end":4525.67,"text":"對於台灣的經濟當然我們知道說經濟部現在規劃的是我們朝向高職化的但是在這個銜接的過程當中其實我們還是有非常多條件上面的問題是不是"},{"start":4548.406,"end":4551.507,"text":"謝謝委員那確實有幾個不同的面向那包括比如說石化業好了那我們其實這個在這個去年開始就跟石化業非常密集來討論石化業確實怎麼樣升級轉型以及做國際的分散佈局那所以我們今年會特別石化業剛才我也提到連結這個機械甚至紡織一起來打新興市場那這個政府確實每個禮拜"},{"start":4575.652,"end":4575.672,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":4600.718,"end":4612.329,"text":"面對現在的國際情形台灣的強項那怎麼樣做更好的一個爭取戰其實都一定會要趕快加速特別是有幾個產業中國其實有一點這個over capacity他的產能過剩的問題其實在未來的兩三年會越來越明顯"},{"start":4620.416,"end":4645.306,"text":"但是其實對於這些中小企業或者是外銷為主的這些生產的廠家而言他們認為說就是說在這種我們電價還有這些相關的就是關稅的談判都沒有辦法有突破的情況下讓他們在台灣生產變成非常嚴峻的問題那這也會造成失業率的問題等等的"},{"start":4645.666,"end":4647.348,"text":"這個部分兩個面向一個就是說事實上台灣是有一個非常綿密的供應鏈所以在台灣的好處有台灣的優點那另外一方面就是說電價的部分或者節電的部分或者減碳本來就是個國際大趨勢"},{"start":4662.305,"end":4689.736,"text":"所以政府願意花比較多的資源來對這個中小企業他低碳化智慧化的部分來讓他節省相關的支出而且坦白講那個國際客戶也好或者他的供應鏈也都會看他有沒有做好這些ESG的減碳的工作那所以這個部分我們一定會去協助中小企業那委員如果有需要我們也其實都非常樂意到各個中小企業的聚落去跟他們做一個交流"},{"start":4690.496,"end":4716.03,"text":"還有其實我有看到那個我們的PPI跟CPI的指數那每一次的電價上漲的你看電價如果調整的時候PPI就是生產物價指數那就是製造端所就是說它的生產成本就增加那所以造成就是整個兩個都是雙漲的情況那代表了我們只要漲電價它就會轉嫁到所有的消費者的身上"},{"start":4716.61,"end":4743.388,"text":"所以這也就是為什麼大家在跟部長說的民生電價的部分如果你已經漲工業電價其實就會影響到民生的這個就是消費者的指數了那未來如果再漲民生電價那就是等於對他們來講就是雙重漲價那全部都會讓所有的民眾認為他們的痛苦指數有可能就會攀升"},{"start":4744.308,"end":4744.829,"text":"但是今天兩次都沒有名聲,對不對?"},{"start":4759.125,"end":4767.51,"text":"小商家的部分或者民生用電的部分確實都有做不同的你用電量的大小做不同的一個規劃那這個就是在過去的兩次的漲價裡面不斷的在優化這個相關的一個機制"},{"start":4776.074,"end":4804.202,"text":"對可是我必須要告訴部長從這個歷史的數字看來只要你就是工業的電價漲那對於就是物價指數就會造成聯動性的這是聯動性從PPI跟CPI來看就是聯動性的這樣子的漲幅所以你必須要看再來就是3月15日聽說我們的碳費審議委員會也要登場了是不是"},{"start":4805.483,"end":4824.616,"text":"這個也會影響到製造業者,是不是?相關的碳費的審議這邊是環境部會開始來召開我知道,可是你們經濟部一定要密切關注嗎?我們會,我們其實對這個...你們目前掌握的情況是如何的?因為第一次好像是這個禮拜五才開始召開"},{"start":4826.978,"end":4835.284,"text":"之前我們其實也有跟產業界有做非常多的溝通我們也會把產業界的這些意見也有反映給這個環境部"},{"start":4857.018,"end":4862.56,"text":"所以這個相關的會不會影響啊對不對我們現在看起來好像我們的接單很順暢但是在這種雙重的影響下漲電價然後開徵碳費會不會對於我們的製造業以及我們的景氣預估有相關的影響那經濟部的評估是怎麼樣謝謝委員提醒那所以在經濟部的電價部分那所以我們才會一直來爭取政府的補貼做最優先"},{"start":4886.97,"end":4892.275,"text":"那那個相關的這個影響產業的通膨PPI等等我們也會非常審慎那不過就是說確實台灣的這個電價的漲其實都比其他國家緩非常多那甚至我們看到韓電他在去年底已經變成轉虧為盈了他甚至都還那他就是韓電漲了84%等等那所以對台灣來講我們確實是更為謹慎"},{"start":4915.234,"end":4915.434,"text":"張綺楷委員"},{"start":4951.751,"end":4953.196,"text":"王美芳、王部長"},{"start":4962.463,"end":4988.897,"text":"我們繼續來談苦民所苦,民生第一我們現在重點還是在1000度以下的民生用電能不能不要漲那討論之前我們就要談一個比較輕鬆的這民眾統計就是水電雙漲對不對今天兩個紅胎共伴效應這叫藤原效應嘛所以你今天能不能很明確的跟全國民眾講今年年底之前水價不會漲"},{"start":4991.117,"end":5018.15,"text":"水價的部分我們當然會很謹慎那我們也會希望這個台水公司能夠有好的一個支撐那這個我們會再跟院裡面來討論相關的這個台水的相關計畫應該是台水李董說有可能要去嘛李董你先站一下沒關係請站一下不過我只要今天部長對著我們全國民眾做一個允諾就好了"},{"start":5019.58,"end":5026.848,"text":"盡量不要在今年年底 漲水價好不好 這個會變成兩個颱風的共伴效應 謝謝委員提醒目前還沒有規劃啦是 你能不能對著民眾說讓他們不要擔心盡量在今年年底 盡量在今年年底不要去水價可以嗎"},{"start":5040.661,"end":5062.286,"text":"謝謝委員建議我們會把委員的建議這個做參考你可以努力嗎?這方面可以努力這是避免物價整個再上來嘛物價上漲就跟那個變了心的女朋友就回不來喔你水跟電都漲這個到時候你看每次漲上去都沒有下來好不好不要像那個變心的女朋友一樣好不好好謝謝委員好來那我們接下來來談上葉"},{"start":5065.626,"end":5089.683,"text":"苦民守苦,我們今天繼續談這已經是第三度本席提到民生用電不要漲了我們看一下這個天平左邊非常明顯高獲利可是也是高耗電的高科技用了台灣絕大部分的電對不對他們雖然是獲利非常的多可是呢有些"},{"start":5091.138,"end":5092.779,"text":"臺電每賣給臺積電的電臺積電一年用了我們200億的200億度電的電錢跟臺電買的時候"},{"start":5119.765,"end":5121.486,"text":"委員這個建議我們也確實都會在工作小組裡面去參考"},{"start":5146.056,"end":5171.38,"text":"現在媒體報的是說這次的這個半導體超過50億、51億、一年用50億以上的51億度電的是要調25%到30是不是?他們正在討論都還沒有定案有這個方向是吧?細節因為我沒有參與所以我不了解好那這個天秤的同時我為什麼一開始講這一邊當然我們非常敬佩"},{"start":5172.185,"end":5196.971,"text":"高科技對我們台灣經濟的發展的這個貢獻你看張忠謀創辦人他是非常有企業責任社會責任他都提到說可以他願意徵這個富人稅嘛對不對我相信在我們的肯定高科技半導體對我們台灣經濟貢獻的時候這是條件的時候他們可能是像你們規劃的應該多負擔一點那在多負擔一點的同時是不是在兩層五到三層的同時我們看看右邊"},{"start":5199.127,"end":5214.495,"text":"可憐的是一般的老百姓一千度以下的是小康之家是小商店一直要等著什麼高通膨實質的薪資負成長通膨這個是主計數的統計2020年2.95這算很高了2023年2.49今年一過CPI稍微降下一點點最讓人家擔心的二月份衝破3"},{"start":5227.498,"end":5253.448,"text":"CPI衝破3.08國發會直接評估了說電價如果漲10%的話CPI直接會有建制影響性0.2到0.3%所以真的要非常非常的謹慎對物價的衝擊不要造成人民已經很苦了這時候電價一漲他們的生活更苦那今天還有更新的新聞我給部長看一下來今天是各報還有各個電視台頭條的新聞"},{"start":5257.059,"end":5284.403,"text":"通膨怪獸又突襲美國今天統心的統計美國的二月的CPI連增多少?3.2%核心的CPI連增了3.8%這個都顯示不是只有美國整個台灣的經濟跟物價都受到很大的一個衝擊所以拜託補定拜託補定 再拜託一次是1000度以下的民生用電在開會的時候盡量爭取不要漲好不好"},{"start":5285.736,"end":5313.141,"text":"謝謝委員的建議,我們各方的意見都會收集,是OK,盡量往這個方向走,好不好那另外我在爭取幫全民講話的時候,我們再看下一張至少讓物價不要上漲的同時有一個方法除了補償電價之外,就是盡量去補助小商家跟小商店對不對是小商家小商店他如果不苦,他沒有調高他價格,人民就不會受苦嘛"},{"start":5314.338,"end":5329.389,"text":"所以最近馬上要開行政院的物價平穩小組是不是?是。最近要開嘛對不對?你能不能建議第一個小商家的小商店的統裝瓦斯跟天然氣在今年年底之前只能降,不要漲?"},{"start":5332.893,"end":5349.661,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告我們已經很久沒有站我們現在賣給他是8塊多可是成本委員知道多少嗎?最高是16塊那現在雖然降一點大概15塊、14塊可是事實上我們基本上是半價桶裝瓦斯在賣給用桶賣給賣給商家這個是好的措施而且我幫你查過了天然氣的價格是在往下掉的"},{"start":5361.243,"end":5382.236,"text":"但是掉還是有十幾塊所以我的要求是合理的我說至少在今年年底你只能降不要再漲好不好我們對小商家都會優於考慮不是我說很具體的能不能做這樣的承諾因為老實講他已經在降了對不對那所以如果降的話你就跟著降"},{"start":5383.465,"end":5407.565,"text":"因為老蔣對小商店跟小店家吃麵吃飯他們影響很大就是他們的瓦斯嗎?這些統裝瓦斯確實我們有特別照顧所以能不能做一個很清楚的保證就是在今年年底之前只會降不會漲我們一定會優於考慮我已經看到我們過去這兩三年都沒有漲這個已經都乖離成本很多了"},{"start":5408.946,"end":5413.029,"text":"公平會跟九佳民營電廠打官司這個事情他最新的進度是公平會贏了"},{"start":5437.113,"end":5457.968,"text":"公平會贏了,然後公平會的主委我禮拜一的時候質詢的時候他們說現在重點在下一張,現在到底要到底要罰他多少錢公平會本來罰他的是63.2億現在要改罰可能60.7億因為兩個重點喔,第一是發多少錢第二個更重要的他認定說九家民營電廠的聯合行為"},{"start":5460.115,"end":5486.843,"text":"確定已經是事實了,就是說九佳民營電廠已經是已經是敗訴了,已經敗訴了最高行政法院裡面還有一句話非常重要,判決書裡面說的臺電可以去跟任何一家你跟他買電的九佳民營電廠或者是能源公司你可以去跟他議價這就本席一直在強調的,你要臺電在虧損的同時,人民要付錢要漲電費之前所有的你跟他買電的九佳民營電廠,太陽能"},{"start":5487.887,"end":5496.637,"text":"去篩檢一下他合約合不合理有沒有降降空間好不好這個部分我簡單跟委員報告他是兩件事他等於是97年到102年這個之間都沒有來跟台電來談那公平會是針對這一段時間實驗來談有沒有聯合壟斷的問題那公平會判定是有那法院也支持"},{"start":5510.311,"end":5512.852,"text":"目前他們這個案子在上訴當中他們在再審這個是針對聯合壟斷至於這個電價的部分102年台電就跟他們已經議價完成了目前是針對102年之前到97年到102年之間的這個遲延的部分台電有去打官司要求這個部分那一二審都輸掉了"},{"start":5535.598,"end":5546.491,"text":"那目前是法院有發回在審理當中那這個我們也會注意委員提醒的這個事情來做所以法定人員要更努力去爭取把這個官司打贏這是一個我現在在提醒你就是說當初為什麼酒店名店長會被罰"},{"start":5552.517,"end":5580.516,"text":"他們跟台電講說我的那個天然氣往上走啦所以你要幫我調嘛 對不對那台電這邊提的是什麼你利息從8%降到2%結果台電勾一郎啊台電被九佳民營電廠欺負啦他幫他調了天然氣的這個成本就跟你這次一樣喔天然氣答應他啦可是往下的利息沒有降沒有降所以最高行政法院講了一句話台電有權利去跟他繼續議約不是只有對九佳民營電廠旗桿現在本席現在在力爭的是什麼"},{"start":5582.657,"end":5598.242,"text":"包括太陽能力都出現了,你看雲豹19間,還有黃偉哲那個案子,我說那個有弊案的能不能好好去每一個合約拿出來談一下能不能去談我跟委員報告,雲豹到今年開始他97%全部都直接賣給民間他都是直接賣給民間可是你之前買他的合約為什麼產生那麼多弊案"},{"start":5604.224,"end":5624.603,"text":"沒有沒有 這個不是 那麼多家 其實國際上都一樣 不同的太陽光電案場 它都是一個BPI的概念它就是會有一個子公司 但是它不是為了逃避 它全世界我們去看的都是一樣部長 等一下我會把文書送給你 最高行政法院裡面有一句話非常重要"},{"start":5624.983,"end":5625.503,"text":"謝謝委員資訊 謝謝部長我們現在請楊瓊英委員資訊 謝謝"},{"start":5661.853,"end":5663.495,"text":"業主席本席想邀請部長請自來水董事長請台電公司"},{"start":5674.793,"end":5695.364,"text":"部長,因為物價讓大家都蠻緊張的,又通膨,物價在升高。國防會的主委也說電價調漲確實會推升物價上漲,而且還不包括間接的效果。那你認同國防會主委這一句話嗎?"},{"start":5697.586,"end":5701.531,"text":"電價跟物價的部分我們各個機關都會很謹慎來看待是表示你也知道國防會主委所說的電價調漲確實會推升物價調漲"},{"start":5717.256,"end":5733.643,"text":"他有相關的這個模型 經濟的模型所以你也知道 電價漲 物價會漲 對不對是 是喔 好 那所以我們的方向一致我們才能夠討論那剛剛有委員說 有我們臺水的董事長說要調調高這個水費 有這回事嗎董事長有沒有 目前沒有董事長你說沒有 我放心 董事長你會這麼說嗎 有嗎"},{"start":5744.108,"end":5753.011,"text":"這個是政策性的問題你有說嗎?跟委員報告是媒體有在關心這個議題你有說今天要調漲水價嗎?沒有我願意給你置信的機會嘛因為我不認為你會這麼大"},{"start":5764.497,"end":5764.637,"text":"拜託放心!"},{"start":5781.033,"end":5806.573,"text":"水會不會漲?你請回座接下來我們討論電的問題因為部長我們剛剛說了電如果漲物價會漲你也認同那3月7日衛福部才說取消全國醫療院所的掛號費漲價的上限那所以呢馬上所以醫療院所立馬還漲這個是只要政府有一個決策那"},{"start":5807.742,"end":5823.256,"text":"大家都會應對上來所以4月份電價要全面調漲的訊息一出來就已經開始有物價在漲我們問了為什麼會漲他說因為政府說下個月要漲那麼有確定要漲嗎?不漲?目前的這個電價審議會都在審理當中那你所送的資料是要漲的?"},{"start":5834.236,"end":5854.084,"text":"目前因為我們也跟我們報告過 因為我們第一個優先爭取補貼 第二個就相關的方案政府有沒有告訴你一定要補貼你多少了 因為我們全力支持你啊 第一項把它做完整就好了 是"},{"start":5854.984,"end":5862.166,"text":"你都不會再物價漲啊全部又亂掉啊什麼時候會告訴我們政府要補貼多少你的儘快是多快你的儘快是多快 這個月底會不會告訴我們對 那院的決策什麼時候會因為這個月底就要店家審議嘛委員會要審啊"},{"start":5879.994,"end":5903.53,"text":"那可不可以告訴我們下個禮拜前能不能告訴我們你所溝通的我們全力支持啊不然我們去拜託行政院都沒有關係啊全部做你的後盾好不好第一個你的方案執行到位電就不要漲了民生用電330度以下本席一直堅持不能漲不能漲不能漲很嚴肅的議題所以我漲了三次下個禮拜能不能告訴我們行政院告訴我們"},{"start":5910.063,"end":5910.744,"text":"因為稅直接讓人民得到公道"},{"start":5920.509,"end":5942.985,"text":"那下個禮拜可不告訴我們行政院到底會補貼我們多少?可不可以?這個部分我們會來跟行政院趕快確認這件事情部長你都說趕快啊所以我還給你多點時間啊下個禮拜前告訴我們到底行政院針對目前的危機他到底要給台電補貼多少好不好跟多少預算來不算補貼啦"},{"start":5946.067,"end":5946.328,"text":"我本人願意"},{"start":5958.243,"end":5985.311,"text":"去拜託行政院我都願意為人民我都願意下個禮拜前告訴我們政府到底要補貼給台電多少好不好我們再實質討論創了19個月如果依照您所送的版本我們20年來沒有調生的小用戶在這一次你都要調那換句話說民生用電至少調5%那也是19年來最高的最高的"},{"start":5986.092,"end":5990.674,"text":"政府部門都告訴我們 如果調漲電價就會推升物價 喔我們差在等咧 我們真的差在等咧 這要怎麼辦 所以我告訴你 如果電價漲10% 那麼你的CPI0.12%"},{"start":6004.534,"end":6030.694,"text":"再加上間接的CPI會漲到0.2到0.3這個數字都是公開透明的那如果因此呢會讓我們CPI迅速增到上升到2%他會觸及到這一句話很嚴肅他會觸及到通膨的警戒線部長你沒憂心啊人家那個國防部長啊都說他煩惱的晚上睡不著"},{"start":6031.536,"end":6050.932,"text":"那你有沒有憂心啊?你有沒有憂心去及到通膨的警戒線?你有沒有憂心?有沒有憂心?我們確實各部門確實都很努力讓台灣的通膨來減緩我想過去這兩三年委員應該也看得到你這麼回答也表示你憂心憂心我要實質作為我要請教傳統產業你給它漲價它就要倒了你再給它漲它倒了就爬不起來了啦"},{"start":6060.905,"end":6075.624,"text":"所以我們現在我曾經告訴你拜託支持我們的產業支持我們的產業你不能夠倒啦傳統產業不能倒啦倒的糟糕啦所以在這樣的情況下你的配套是什麼你怎麼協助他"},{"start":6076.425,"end":6076.846,"text":"本期還是拜託你拜託你啦"},{"start":6101.213,"end":6125.9,"text":"傳統產業你不可以去啦!三百三十多億的民生用電你不可以去啦!好不好?因為你要穩住我們的民生啊!穩住我們的物價啊!對不對?一起來做!配套給我!我們到目前為止看不到你要怎麼機器漲價之後傳統產業的配套方案在哪裡?讓他們能夠屹立不搖不能倒!"},{"start":6127.076,"end":6147.33,"text":"你詳細書面資料給本席,好不好?我已經問了第三次,我還得不到你口中所說的配套措施只告訴我們一起來維護,怎麼維護?請你把書面資料詳細給本席本席要求,垃圾不放棄因為這是觸及整個全國每一家都要用到"},{"start":6148.325,"end":6165.457,"text":"你最能夠直接照顧你能不能答應我在年底以前我們的瓦斯統統瓦斯燈瓦斯不能漲好不好是我們統統瓦斯你答應不要漲我也給你暫許好不好我們一家有330度以下的民生業店請不要漲傳統產業不要漲你去盤點啊"},{"start":6169.039,"end":6169.059,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6199.319,"end":6199.679,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6219.284,"end":6231.448,"text":"防堵這些的技術不當外流你要怎麼樣去強化你的審查流程?是的 這個我們其實也都有跟國際合作 我們都隨時在跟國際合作 那內部的審查流程也都有內部在討論"},{"start":6236.05,"end":6236.85,"text":"最後一個議題循環經濟第1這是大家都最在討論的議題本席要請問"},{"start":6255.18,"end":6266.345,"text":"大家全世界聯合國世界各國都在做循環經濟的概念我們也配合我們跟國際接軌你的執行率你看2021年到2023年3年3556萬8千元你看看你的成績指標"},{"start":6273.993,"end":6291.546,"text":"你的成績指標,你的學術成績有入文,零技術創新智慧財產,零技術創新辦理技術研討會,一場經濟效益促進廠商投資的建築一件更新會新增的這個資料庫比例"},{"start":6292.546,"end":6297.288,"text":"三十筆那這樣的計畫是低到不能再低的KPI本期請教部長你滿意嗎你滿意嗎委員這個字有點小齁我回去確認一下再跟委員做一個什麼叫字有點小我已經口頭已經數字明明白白的告訴你了你定定的這樣的KPI你滿意嗎"},{"start":6314.936,"end":6322.963,"text":"好好回去,拿你的放大鏡看清楚這是你在執行的業務欸你還跟我說字比較小"},{"start":6324.127,"end":6344.6,"text":"不能如此好好去檢討全世界的方向我們的KPI 0000只有一件衣你的這個更新資料30筆你滿意嗎請你回去用放大鏡去看清楚告訴本席你滿意嗎好不好不滿意趕快改進資料跟世界接軌好不好謝謝楊瓊瑛委員的質詢謝謝部長瓊瑛姐"},{"start":6360.932,"end":6362.372,"text":"我們再請王部長"},{"start":6391.35,"end":6412.822,"text":"部長好,部長我想跟你討論一下,你知道我一直很關心這整個生霸電力第二期燃氣他特種建物變更案,對不對?是。然後呢,你明明知道我們很關心,但是呢,你們又越來越便宜行事。"},{"start":6414.434,"end":6443.505,"text":"我一直跟你們要到底你們怎麼決定他所謂的特種建物是不是可以變更而且他的變更我一直強調當一個建物他如果從基底一層一層慢慢變更我相信大家不會有意見可是他是一次完成一次變更被掩蓋在底下的所有的問題沒有人知道但是"},{"start":6445.049,"end":6473.351,"text":"你們就開了一次的會議這個會議是什麼在112年11月15日禮拜三利用我們當時候大家都在選舉的時間點好開了這個會議這個會議裡面找了委員有三個人你們說的委員都沒有意見委員敢背書好厲害喔委員又沒有從"},{"start":6474.795,"end":6504.341,"text":"最基層在他第一次變更的時候就參與了他怎麼能夠看到後面他怎麼能趕上的背書就真的有欸有三個委員說對特建變更部分無意見他怎麼無意見他看到了哪些資料好裡面還有市政府"},{"start":6506.198,"end":6506.919,"text":"市政府也沒意見"},{"start":6537.267,"end":6558.31,"text":"部長如果你住在地方你住在那個附近從頭到尾三十幾項的變更從頭到尾地方沒有人知道到了完成之後提出了特種建物的變更之後大家才了解你敢接受嗎"},{"start":6560.712,"end":6571.874,"text":"跟委員報告整個特建的變更因為當時是審查通過的案子那因為電廠的建設有他的特殊性所以他要根據他實際上所採購的機器設備針對特種建築的部分做比較的他從頭到尾都是變更的從頭到尾跟你們原始送的計畫都不一樣跟他們原本的規劃也都不同"},{"start":6587.437,"end":6597.462,"text":"然後全部蓋完之後才一次給能源署變更然後你們就這幾個委員談談市政府這樣子同意包庇就OK了嗎?"},{"start":6605.586,"end":6628.384,"text":"由業者他也根據我們原來通過的原則標準都跟當時通過的原則標準一樣再次的審視那裡一樣?如果真的一樣那為什麼不一項一項的變更?他為什麼不一項一項變更?針對37項那為什麼當時候不一項一項的變更?要一次從頭到尾施工完成之後再一次變更為什麼?為什麼?"},{"start":6632.838,"end":6655.396,"text":"今天你蓋房子你一般蓋房子跟地方政府去申請跟各縣市政府去申請的時候你要不要一層一層變更當我們政府國家重大的公共建設的時候要不要一項一項變更報告委員因為在環評階段我們送出去的設計都是比較初期的設計那真正"},{"start":6656.577,"end":6667.759,"text":"通過之後才開始細部設計我舉個例子來講今天他買一個變壓器他這個就是細部設計的變更阿對他是細部設計後來才做細部設計變更他是細部設計的變更他原本就有做細部設計了我告訴你我要質詢你我一定了解很清楚啦他從頭到尾從一開始有細部設計了他現在變更的是細部設計他提出了37項變更就是針對細部設計"},{"start":6683.799,"end":6688.381,"text":"立法院經濟委員會來作出主決議深化電廠多項二期工程以完工之後才進行向能源署申請變更設計"},{"start":6709.591,"end":6731.789,"text":"注多設計與當初環境影響評估的內容不同為考量當地居民權益及公共安全經濟部能源署必須提出調查報告並要求召開地方說明會台南市永康區、新市區、新化區、山上區、佐鎮區否則不得擅自同意申報店長所提出的變更設計請貴單位"},{"start":6736.328,"end":6742.51,"text":"要詳細監督有沒有這是我們的主決議有沒有對啊有這樣的決議那你們憑什麼現在都同意他變更"},{"start":6752.774,"end":6756.957,"text":"要組成一個專案小組來做詳細的審查所以我們才會有外部的委員包括相關的主管機關那你今天就是這份資料嘛找了三個委員然後開了一個會議記錄然後呢就遵循說你們有沒有意見沒有意見這就是背書嘛我很懷疑為什麼這三個委員剛背書啊"},{"start":6778.974,"end":6797.148,"text":"如果發生問題我們可不可以找他算帳可不可以來第二個部分請問這裡面的主決議寫得很清楚喔調查報告並要求召開地方說明會喔如果沒有的話不得擅自同意森巴店長所提出的變更設計喔有沒有"},{"start":6797.668,"end":6812.342,"text":"是跟委員報告就是第一個特件變更完：那委員關心的說明會所以也沒有沒有寫得很清楚你要不得擅自同意深壩電廠所提出的變更設計這是變更設計這個是一個這個特件的變更是一個"},{"start":6816.866,"end":6817.026,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":6849.168,"end":6850.168,"text":"那是其中一個部分正當中"},{"start":6875.106,"end":6896.49,"text":"署長你要不要調我之前從頭到尾我所有的質詢我講的就是變更設計就是建築特種建築物的變更案我從頭到尾講的都是這個喔你們現在在跟我玩文字遊戲然後東扯西扯你們現在是為誰拋屁啊我只有問如果地方發生問題誰要擔當誰要負責"},{"start":6902.104,"end":6907.048,"text":"誰要擔當?誰要負責?這個特種建築物變更從頭到尾沒有進行變更一次完成提出37項的變更然後呢你說要調查報告沒有調查報告只有一份所謂的會議紀錄請了三個委員跟台南市政府你們跟我講委員沒有意見台南市政府沒有意見就只有徵詢他們的意見"},{"start":6928.326,"end":6951.314,"text":"然後他說我對特種變更沒有意見這樣就結束了這樣就結束了然後呢我裡面寫得很清楚我的主決議就說要召開地方說明會我就說嘛你才能對於這個森巴電廠的變更才能同意沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":6952.394,"end":6980.334,"text":"這個說明會我們會等天然氣管線已經做了智慧檢測天然氣管線檢測完之後會有完整的組長哈囉哈囉哈囉哈囉我裡面有說是天然氣管線嗎你要不要看我的主決議呢哈囉哈囉你要不要看我的主決議你要不要看我的主決議嗎我又沒有說天然氣管線我們真的管線我當時候所有的質詢好多樣"},{"start":6981.977,"end":6985.498,"text":"都是為了地方的安全我質詢好多樣我有寫管線嗎?我在這裡面有寫管線嗎?我講的是一體性的在你來看可是今天你要我從頭到尾從頭到尾我的質詢"},{"start":7002.967,"end":7015.172,"text":"你們怎麼能夠包庇成這個樣子你們怎麼能夠這樣子依照你們的想法請問我們地方的權益跟我們的安全在哪裡在哪裡在哪裡你們都已經同意他了特種都同意他了署長"},{"start":7032.827,"end":7043.774,"text":"我只要了解誰替我們地方的安全把關?誰?誰?誰?好!那如果發生問題你要負責嗎?如果發生問題你要負責嗎?如果發生了任何危險性的問題你都不會負責啦!當你下去都不會負責啦!誰在中央?"},{"start":7060.876,"end":7061.636,"text":"請接下來鄭天才委員請做巡大"},{"start":7093.314,"end":7115.004,"text":"委員請部長請部長好部長好水利法第78條河川區域河川區域內只有沒有提到不得私有土地不得私沒有規定78條之一一樣沒有規定說不得私有"},{"start":7123.073,"end":7150.387,"text":"水利法第78條之二也沒有規定說不得私有水利法第82條對於水道治理計劃線或者是用地範圍線的土地也沒有規定不得私有水利法只有第83條有規定尋常洪水位、行水區域之土地"},{"start":7153.1,"end":7174.966,"text":"其原為公有者：不得移轉為私有：以私有者：可以徵收這個是只有水利法第83條規定循床洪水不得私有這個讓部長瞭解一下河流最靠近河流的"},{"start":7175.919,"end":7203.44,"text":"就是水利法第83 尋常洪水位行水區然後為了要蓋堤防的地方叫水利法第82條治理縣用地方為縣然後最外面的就是河川七一縣土地法第14條第三款第14條的第一項的第三款"},{"start":7205.402,"end":7234.272,"text":"過去一直到現在經濟部水利署都以這個第三款作為第78條這個看一下水利法82條跟78條之二都是用這個土地法第14條的第一項的第三款"},{"start":7236.664,"end":7260.027,"text":"好土地法第14條的第一項第三款可通用之水道戴秀雄教授認為這樣引用這個是錯誤的因為臺灣並沒有可通用之水道可通用水道要那個滑船啊輪船啊不是滑船啊要那個輪船可以的沒有臺灣沒有"},{"start":7262.722,"end":7289.987,"text":"好,原住民族基本法第20條規定政府承認原住民族土地的權利所以因為這條原基法條文內政部內政部主管機關土地法的主管機關對第14條土地法第14條第一項各款規定不得私有的話定言者他做了修正105年12月做了修正"},{"start":7291.363,"end":7316.187,"text":"土地法第14條第一項各款規定不得私有土地但原住民申請經工廠管理機關同意配合提供增化邊緣住民保留地者可以所以這個部分但是到目前為止這個水利署都不願意都不願意好"},{"start":7317.95,"end":7344.094,"text":"尤其是以奉合定增化邊沿住林堡的立者讓部長瞭解,增化邊沿住林堡的立的合定是誰合定的?是行政院合定哦行政院已經合定了水利署依然不同意依然不同意然後呢以設定耕作前、地上前或農業前之沿住林堡的立者"},{"start":7346.862,"end":7370.171,"text":"會設定耕作權、地上權也就是經過行政院核定核定之後這塊土地核定為原住民保留地然後才設定耕作權、地上權都已經設定耕作權、地上權了都水利署到現在都還是不願意所以這個部分"},{"start":7372.049,"end":7395.948,"text":"這裡面已經因排除劃入不得私有土地範圍 這不是我規定的 是內政部針對土地法14條所定的劃定原則所以部長 這個要請你 這個要做決定 因為部長是學法律的"},{"start":7397.395,"end":7423.976,"text":"水利署不是寫法律的,他們只考量到工程啊!他們考量到工程啊!想替人民省錢啊!為什麼呢?他特別,這個106年8月1號水利署的公文我們看最後下面的兩句話一、未來治理首席之範圍來認定"},{"start":7427.668,"end":7450.765,"text":"以未來治理首席之範圍來認定,依原紀律法規定辦理。這個,我們就看到這條線。現在的狀況,治理線,有的地方還沒有蓋堤防,所以這個水利署那張公文是說以未來治理的需要的範圍。"},{"start":7453.137,"end":7478.929,"text":"這個我們還可以稍微容忍一下我跟署長講過但是呢提防已經蓋好了提防已經蓋好了到河川七一線這中間的依法都應該要增加邊緣原住民保留地但是水利署我也不知道什麼原因"},{"start":7481.28,"end":7481.48,"text":"部長：部長"},{"start":7503.902,"end":7532.352,"text":"可以嗎?依法行政啊：就依內政部啊：他是主管機關啊：可以嗎?土地法是一般法那委員也知道那那個這個相關的這個水利法的部分有更細膩的像委員講的78、82、83那哪一些可以有沒有什麼例外的可行性我再跟水利署討論一下很明確的"},{"start":7534.093,"end":7560.03,"text":"只有水利法83這個我們法律明定不得私有我們絕對遵守法律78、82都沒有說不得私有啦所以戴秀雄教授或者是內政部基於土地主管機關土地法主管機關也都認為是這樣所以這個部分請部長我再跟他們詳細討論好謝謝"},{"start":7564.702,"end":7579.282,"text":"另外最後這個我就要看也讓部長瞭解看一下這個提防都已經蓋好了這個提防提防都已經蓋好了"},{"start":7580.031,"end":7580.392,"text":"事由管理法36條"},{"start":7595.356,"end":7618.704,"text":"特別規定偏遠地區、原住民族地區及離島地區的這個相關的這些統裝瓦斯的一個補貼統裝瓦斯的補貼那這個上次的統裝瓦斯補貼大概已經有三四年沒有調高所以這個部分也請這個"},{"start":7621.616,"end":7640.35,"text":"我們經濟部還有相關的能源署能夠調高,可以嗎?我們有根據整個成本的情況今年會做檢討。好好好,謝謝。我們現在請鄭正前委員質詢,謝謝。"},{"start":7645.865,"end":7646.306,"text":"主席 請部長"},{"start":7664.587,"end":7679.739,"text":"市長,去年外國人直接來台投資的部分,因為新的數字出來了,我想請教部長,你對外資來台的部分是不是很歡迎?"},{"start":7684.841,"end":7698.462,"text":"當然是當然歡迎嘛那你對於那個大陸的企業陸資來台的時候是不是也歡迎他符合我們的規定我們當然也是歡迎的是所以對於港澳的投資呢"},{"start":7699.946,"end":7722.543,"text":"港澳的投資因為他會背後有的時候會涉及到有沒有入資的問題所以港澳的投資的部分有時候是比照外資但是他如果有入資超過百分比的話也會比照入資的規定來審查所以我們港澳的來台投資的統計數字是算在外資裡面還算在入資裡面"},{"start":7723.834,"end":7724.154,"text":"在外資裏面"},{"start":7745.396,"end":7763.087,"text":"我們投審司這個裡面的一些資料的時候我們對於那個裡面的資料提供的資料感覺好像不是很充分因為之前的時候呢我們可以查到一些相關的資料可是現在感覺查不到像港澳相關的資料我們在這邊是查不到的"},{"start":7763.427,"end":7765.148,"text":"我們的所有的外資投資案件我們都會對外的揭露"},{"start":7785.171,"end":7800.402,"text":"是,那介紹就很簡單,就是比方說哪個公司多少錢就這樣,那我們本來想說是不是有更友善的方式,我們要查詢的時候是查詢得到的因為目前我上網去查是沒有查詢到,如果你們有更好的一個功能的部分,有更好的功能嗎?"},{"start":7802.046,"end":7825.065,"text":"應該沒有吧?因為我至少我上去他就是非常的不友善就是只能夠簡單看到就是時間序列出來然後看不到你沒有任何查詢的一個機制那之後如果要補充說明再到本辦來稍微做一下說明那我另外想要提到另外一個點就是說我想問一下部長就是說因為你覺得我看到那個我們"},{"start":7826.446,"end":7854.742,"text":"經濟部的一個新聞稿就對於整個外商來台灣投資的部分的時候我覺得感覺到經濟部是熱誠歡迎的可是對於陸資來台投資的時候我就感覺就感覺態度是不太一樣的那我這邊我想要講一個點就是說我們對於整個台灣以外的企業來台灣投資我覺得應該都站在一個歡迎的立場我這是很重要的一個點因為我看到一個數字就是說對於大陸來台投資"},{"start":7856.423,"end":7877.515,"text":"僅30件,金額2969萬美金然後聊勝於無用一個聊勝於無這樣的一個字眼的時候我覺得感覺就有一些價值判斷在那裡頭啦那我是覺得可能不是那麼適合你們回去看一下你們的新聞稿再來跟我因為我是從你們新聞稿裡面看到的字眼我就覺得感覺有一些不一樣的態度"},{"start":7877.875,"end":7880.558,"text":"本集辦公室也常常接到一個狀態就是說從港澳來台灣投資的狀態的時候感覺會碰到很多"},{"start":7900.086,"end":7900.206,"text":"應該沒有"},{"start":7917.059,"end":7917.259,"text":"目前沒有,對"},{"start":7931.363,"end":7931.683,"text":"姓寶基金"},{"start":7948.395,"end":7964.352,"text":"中央政府嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別決算審核報告裡面他有特別提到了一個點就說我們整個信保基金整個信保基金他"},{"start":7966.855,"end":7970.16,"text":"到去年6月底指預期還款的筆數有到11萬筆那預期保證金額超過174億元平均新發生的預期比例高達3.83%這個數字沒有錯嘛"},{"start":7985.114,"end":8008.212,"text":"是 報告委員是沒有錯那他裡面就特別提到了一個點就是說如果說我們現在整個城堡的保證金額它的平均發生的預期比率計算的時候整體可能預期的理賠金額會高達364億元那麼跟整個當時我們在這個特別預算的時候本來"},{"start":8010.202,"end":8034.802,"text":"保證那個專款預算是870億後來流用到其他的部其他的項目當中的時候導致我們保證專款可用的預算僅剩下245億元對不對那我們如果按照原本3.83的預期比率去推的時候呢我們整個的信保基金的一個預期理賠的金額可能會到達364億那跟當時的"},{"start":8040.049,"end":8046.792,"text":"245億的時候會產生119億元的缺口我想請問部長這119億你要從哪裡補回來?報告委員因為這個新發生預期率它每個月都會變動所以目前我們觀察的狀況目前245億如果這個要來賠付的話以目前的新發生預期率來看的話應該還足夠"},{"start":8066.339,"end":8081.05,"text":"還足夠?對,如果說不夠的話,當初主計總署有承諾說他們會從這個年度預算來撥補給信保基金。從年度預算來撥補?對,就是我們會再提這個預算。也要補辦預算?是是是。OK,如果說補辦預算的時候,坦白說"},{"start":8083.832,"end":8095.385,"text":"我們一定是支持中小企業的所以我們對中小企業的支持反映在性保基因當中我們特別的關注因為我們擔心如果這119億補不進去的時候會不會影響到之後中小企業他們"},{"start":8101.112,"end":8126.113,"text":"之後要得到信訪基金支持會不會更困難所以本期提這個部分的時候呢要特別提醒就是我們經濟部這邊因為我這1191是按照你們的數字算出來那審計部的報告也提到了這個部分所以我們認為這1191是很可能會發生的狀態那我們希望能夠提早把這個預算能夠儘早把它補辦起來"},{"start":8128.095,"end":8136.184,"text":"不要到時候影響到整個中小企業需要得到信保基金支持的時候而不夠我覺得這是我們針對這個問題當中我們看到一個最大的問題那至於說當時這個870億的特別預算後來有625億流用到什麼地方"},{"start":8146.636,"end":8149.498,"text":"政府一定會讓信保基金可以來擔保中小企業的部分 這個政府一定會支持"},{"start":8165.169,"end":8183.563,"text":"最後請部長把針對我們去年一些外商投資的相關的資料希望能夠分國家跟地區給我一個詳細的資料那我也想特別知道從港澳這邊過來的資金到底有多少好 謝謝謝謝鄭振淺委員接下來我們請張家駿委員發言"},{"start":8199.065,"end":8200.369,"text":"主席我想請部長來請王部長"},{"start":8207.102,"end":8234.992,"text":"部長我相信大家最近一直瘋狂的請教你關於漲電費的事情但我今天想要問您有關於這個水利的問題尤其是水利署前瞻計畫水與安全的這個前四期編列了將近500億的預算持續補助地方的政府推廣這個防洪治理成效非常好那我想要請問一下到目前為止"},{"start":8237.253,"end":8263.951,"text":"這個第4期的執行：水與安全的執行情形為何?好,謝謝委員指導。那,截至目前為止,我們已經合訂了雲林縣超過53億元。現在執行的狀況,我們也跟雲林縣政府一起來努力。那雲林縣政府現在還有19件還沒有發包。那我們希望它加速。那未來,當然雲林是一個"},{"start":8265.211,"end":8265.452,"text":"主席﹖"},{"start":8284.161,"end":8284.201,"text":"經濟部部長"},{"start":8303.557,"end":8325.75,"text":"幫我們雲林來努力因為我們雲林縣不只是一煙水地區我們還有地層下限地區所以真的農民也非常的辛苦很需要說我們水利署所有的人員包括我們在地的這些工作人員能夠在第一線能夠把這些事務做好那我想要請教就是說第5期預計什麼時候送到我們立院來審查"},{"start":8331.417,"end":8345.682,"text":"這個是要看國安會的時候啟動的時候那第5期的話原則上應該是明年需要去執行的那我相信目前國安會已經在詢問各部會第5期的計畫那國安會應該也會在今年的上半年完整以後應該會送到立法院來"},{"start":8355.265,"end":8356.106,"text":"我相信部長也認同吧"},{"start":8381.963,"end":8405.196,"text":"我認同說一定要一段接一段把它完整的做好那有很多計畫其實是需要部長包括署長繼續協助尤其我們雲林縣剛剛署長有講有19件那個19件可能是已經有列管的可是遠遠超過19件以上的需要做的那我現在手上有幾件是"},{"start":8406.016,"end":8414.906,"text":"可能是預備工程啦預備工程還沒有進入這個正式工程的包括海口大排包括舊莊大排包括這個舊頂皮頭大排還有一無中排有材料大排還有熱內排水"},{"start":8425.217,"end":8453.089,"text":"這個中西橋下游段這一些的那我舉例來說海口大排這個出口閘門非常老舊而且他的抽血量體不足所以導致於他的上游五條港地區經常淹水那他急需要改善那他現在只是預備工程所以也希望說可以儘速轉列為正式工程那包括舊莊大排他是在"},{"start":8453.869,"end":8469.601,"text":"大批的南邊的區域排水那這個區域經常有淹水的狀況那這一期工程完成之後就可以達到全段治理的目標可以說是最後一里路而且說實在他的這個"},{"start":8470.842,"end":8484.489,"text":"也沒有算很高啦所以也很希望說是不是今天既然部長署長都在這裡希望可以盡快的把它列為正式工程那另外包括這個舊頂皮大排的引川峻橋下游排水整治"},{"start":8489.873,"end":8510.571,"text":"這個部分他現有橋樑有阻礙水流的情況那這一段就是剛好位於排水的出口段那這個工程完成之後就也是整段就改善完成了所以可以解決二輪跟西螺的淹水狀況我們找的絕對不是說不用走叫你來走的都是那種重點希望說"},{"start":8512.953,"end":8535.703,"text":"真的是錯下去之後馬上是全段能夠有改善或者是整段能夠完成的而且不是說一定要求說這個金額一定要很多有一些其實是小小的沒有很多人說兩三千萬可是他實際能夠改善的所以這一點懇求這個部長跟署長一定可以趕快競速的核定"},{"start":8536.403,"end":8559.003,"text":"我們在今年年初已經啟動了所有的盤點我們未來在第5期的額度裡面往中南部若干非常多的縣市除了雲林縣之外還有很多的需求我們會統一的來做檢討那其中由於用地取得比如說已經完成用地取得的設計已經完成我們在第5期的額度裡面會優先來予以考量"},{"start":8559.503,"end":8573.637,"text":"那委員所提的這個八件的這個預備工程裡面有一些若是有符合這些的條件我們未來再評比了之後會來注意對希望可以優先進速來處理因為畢竟我聽說就是說如果沒有特別委員關切的話要排得遙遙無期那我的鄉親真的是因應其判因為淹水"},{"start":8583.286,"end":8604.416,"text":"其實我覺得說我會重振也是因為看到鄉親淹水之苦我會覺得說不應該真的不應該那淹水真的太難過了所以真的很期待說我們一起來共同做好事確實這幾年因為有前瞻預算那政府也非常重視那個易淹水地區的改善那這個對鄉下的農民居民其實是很有感的"},{"start":8607.637,"end":8630.657,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8630.917,"end":8633.099,"text":"三百三十度以下的民生電費動漲還有希望說農業用電跟漁業用電動漲之外"},{"start":8652.637,"end":8674.338,"text":"高跨那個節流的部分就是也希望有一個因應措施過去那個中小企業發展條例中有規定如果企業為基層員工調高薪資就能夠享有減稅的優惠這項規定是為了鼓勵企業能夠為最基層的員工加薪提高這個員工基層的待遇可是這個"},{"start":8674.718,"end":8680.702,"text":"約定今年5月19日就要到期了：那所以本席也要提出修法希望延長這樣子的措施請問部長支持嗎是是那我們目前院的版本吼草案也已經拿出來了我們草案正在這個讓大家表示意見那我們會用盡快的速度也會大家的意見完了以後送到院裡面趕快送到立法院來審查我們也是贊成要延長這一點要拜託部長對阿盡快的"},{"start":8703.618,"end":8705.099,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員我們現在休息5分鐘11點再回來開會"},{"start":9165.898,"end":9175.743,"text":"來請大家回座我們要開始繼續開會了謝謝好我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":9197.168,"end":9197.748,"text":"王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員王國興議員"},{"start":9220.725,"end":9231.234,"text":"謝謝委員肯定經濟部的努力謝謝對我希望你留任如果不能留任我也希望你說有更高的職位更好的發展那你個人的規劃呢"},{"start":9233.688,"end":9254.755,"text":"我沒有個人的規劃是我想在經濟部因為委員非常清楚經濟部的業務這個業務繁雜是那我覺得對國家做這些事情非常有意義而且你有做出成績來但是當然不可能說100分那我覺得你大概有80分左右所以希望你繼續努力謝謝委員先請教一下離岸風電區塊開發這兩天這個媒體有很多的報導這個台電說綠電"},{"start":9263.159,"end":9267.354,"text":"發展太慢、勾引不足那到底是什麼原因他會這樣說?"},{"start":9269.176,"end":9269.596,"text":"為什麼他會這樣說?"},{"start":9299.836,"end":9324.384,"text":"所以他對我們趕快來發展綠電他確實也有跟我們提醒這個速度上不要落後了是那個投報率啊這個綠電投報率過低所以你這個32企業32企的招標會不會因為這樣子延後這個這開發商聯名跟你陳情嗎是所以這個RR說這個投報率低於4"},{"start":9325.495,"end":9347.415,"text":"所以他們認為說這個是不是投標了,但是是不是不要那麼早決標,到年底再決定,你們目前的決策呢?是,我們確實收到他們的這個來文,那這個部分我們會內部討論一下,我們也會跟廠商來溝通所以加上3之1期,3之1期也有很多的問題"},{"start":9349.113,"end":9352.276,"text":"那預計到2026、2027才會併網那三四二期也是2028、2029那如果這個併網期程目前的規劃有沒有改變?"},{"start":9362.382,"end":9376.965,"text":"目前確實開發商跟我們提到不是在臺灣的問題是全球的問題就是這個開發商的相關的成本國外的這個利息很高讓他的資金成本、供應鏈等等所以確實都有提到這個期程的問題那我們都跟他密切來討論你會延後多久這不可測你如果延後太久並往時間延後到延後兩三年"},{"start":9390.467,"end":9400.055,"text":"那延後影響當然是對於綠電供應會有很大的這個缺口 對不對 是 那你們預估啊 這個併網期程會延後多久"},{"start":9401.253,"end":9413.283,"text":"目前我們其實會跟他們來做仔細的討論那他們有提到一個非常不可控制就是船另外就是說排船起他們如果說國際上的沒有足夠的船來安裝的話也會是一個非常重要的因素然後國際大環境也不可能瞬間變化一定要長期慢慢的這個調整嘛 對不對"},{"start":9429.415,"end":9437.882,"text":"所以這種我覺得延後兩三年有可能嗎?我們最近會密集來跟他們討論另外國產化國產化會當然一個歷練什麼會增加嘛之前我跟妳討論過了"},{"start":9442.685,"end":9466.17,"text":"國產化跟綠電的供應量增加跟國產化這個到位到底你這個要怎麼樣去取得一個平衡點沒有錯就是這個部分我們確實都會非常細膩的然後也來看國內的這個供應量到底能夠供應的量是多少然後來做這個兩方面的一個考量這個你要去權衡是都能夠雙贏對"},{"start":9468.49,"end":9469.172,"text":"中小級創新興障事業署"},{"start":9479.605,"end":9498.511,"text":"賴副總統曾經公布在去年9月打造新創雨林的生態系這是一個國政白皮書、國政的願景然後也通過亞洲矽谷3.0當然這是國會的業務我也召開這個相關的不斷說修法或者是政策必須要做調整"},{"start":9499.571,"end":9513.028,"text":"所以這個部分啊 這個中小跟新創企業組相對在部裡面的這個聲音比較小 但新創很重要我提出的修法 我希望那個 組長、副組長 你了解我的修法內容嗎?"},{"start":9515.555,"end":9518.799,"text":"我會要求你們針對這個新創創投跟新創事業每年度都要比照中小企業白皮書一樣"},{"start":9535.014,"end":9563.98,"text":"因為你現在合併成中小及輕創企業署你針對中小企業由於每年都有白皮書這是法律的規定你也按照這個中小企業白皮書的內容模式你提出創投事業及輕創事業白皮書我覺得委員這個提議是有道理的那你要做啊所以今年度你就比照中小企業白皮書今年你就把創投事業及輕創企業白皮書把它"},{"start":9565.66,"end":9566.283,"text":"把他弄一本出來"},{"start":9567.5,"end":9568.04,"text":"新創事業白皮書 何書長"},{"start":9596.923,"end":9613.148,"text":"委員長,今年越快越好。另外,AI目前的這個,如果提升台灣在AI產業的這個產值跟這個國際的話語權"},{"start":9618.605,"end":9638.191,"text":"台灣深層式AI的興起如果沒有趕上時代這個可能會造成重大的國安危機所以我們的AI的經濟產值跟AI的國際話語權必須要提高產值要提高話語權也要增加這牽涉到什麼AI模型的建立有幾個階段"},{"start":9639.98,"end":9664.805,"text":"包括預先訓練、落地的微調、推論的應用這部分我想這個邏輯很清楚這部分你必須要經濟部、書發部跟其他的跨部會你要把這個數位轉型這個三階段AI模型建立三階段把它迅速到位"},{"start":9666.403,"end":9687.364,"text":"這部分這個經濟部有沒有什麼想法?有,其實跨部會都有在討論這個部分那目前大家覺得就左邊第一個那個Pretraining的部分大家認為這個部分因為他投入資源非常大那台灣應該不要先就講這一個部分但是對第二個跟第三個部分"},{"start":9688.285,"end":9688.865,"text":"是現在臺灣確實也有在發展的部分"},{"start":9705.731,"end":9715.798,"text":"需要有這個應用領域的專業的技能這部分經濟部有沒有什麼想法?對,我們經濟部來講我們其實每個禮拜的業務會報都有一個專門的時間討論這個議題但是Fight tuning的這個訓練成本很高啊Fight tuning的部分市長有沒有什麼怎麼樣把這個成本過高的問題來降低?"},{"start":9732.754,"end":9758.264,"text":"目前國科會這邊是有國際的這個比較開放是Lama2的這樣的一個軟體來做相關的training然後另外有一個中文的資料庫的系統在做如何全方位的把AI這個模型的AI模型的這個微調訓練成本把它降低你才能普及化是對不對才能各行各地都能運用這個如果你沒有這個"},{"start":9759.304,"end":9763.953,"text":"各行各地普及應用的話會變成國安危機跟其他國家我們就趕不上"},{"start":9765.225,"end":9793.119,"text":"所以這部分我覺得這個AI未來這個怎麼樣的產值能夠提高怎麼樣影響用我們的現在優勢能不能增加國際化學權這個經濟部要很重視是有有我們覺得這是臺灣已經有很好的AI晶片了然後再往前推AI的設計然後另外怎麼樣到各行各業AI的應用這個部分那確實臺灣也很有機會把它做好因為本行已經算是資深了"},{"start":9794.119,"end":9795.099,"text":"接下來我們請陳超明委員發言"},{"start":9827.812,"end":9854.002,"text":"主席好首先有請王部長來請部長王部長好常常下鄉常常碰到一些困擾的問題就是無自來水地區自來水源管的工程這裡面就牽涉到水利跟自來水公司"},{"start":9855.131,"end":9877.461,"text":"但是現在全國自來水的普及率達到95%但是你們要求的一個標準就是每一戶的要有60萬的施工成本審查的標準是以60萬以下才可以,以上不可以我認為台灣我們每個高水都很寬"},{"start":9878.641,"end":9893.219,"text":"尤其現在普及到95%沒有裝自來水的地區﹐我們就叫偏遠的地區﹐也比較落後的地區﹐即使這個是水資源含有最重要的地區﹐他們要裝自來水都這樣補了這60萬、50萬人"},{"start":9898.005,"end":9923.707,"text":"我覺得這個要照顧民生都要一樣那是給你提供水源的地方竟然裝不到自來水讓你這裡多錢人都在用所以我好幾年我一直在拜託要求那大概再開8個月台灣的自來水大概普及率就會很高我覺得這個非常重要所以我今天來這邊特別拜託多一點經費"},{"start":9925.589,"end":9942.122,"text":"支援給我們的水利使、給我們的自來水公司讓這個無自來水地區能馬上把它慢慢的一直把自來水的普及率普及出來你好好拜託,你關係很好到行政院會拿到很多的獎勵,這樣有困難嗎?"},{"start":9944.103,"end":9952.473,"text":"跟委員報告因為我個人也覺得這個事情要用更好的想像所以兩個方向一個就是水利署這邊也去把這個60萬的部分拉高來提高這個門檻"},{"start":9958.92,"end":9963.541,"text":"但是也跟委員講有一些地方因為他很善他要的經費真的遠遠高出60萬甚至80萬那我請署長說去想一些聰明的方法比如說有沒有一些淨水設施因為我們大旱的時候有一些廠商已經會做淨水設施那有沒有可能這些淨水設施就近那這個經費相對也比較可惜那可以讓更多的戶數來做那他們現在正在評估"},{"start":9987.688,"end":10003.283,"text":"技術的部分、可行性的部分、經費的部分我覺得這個是不是可以更加快來解決這個偏遠地區的無自來水的問題這個方式我贊成因為我以前就提出了要用科技方法來解決偏遠的地區"},{"start":10004.404,"end":10024.145,"text":"在那邊你淨水、瀝水的功能做好打地下水出來給他們但是已經講了3、4年了、4、5年了啦這個早期我某個淨水、瀝水我大概了解這些我們要怎麼來做可以省了很多的成本我會希望你趕快這樣子去做好不好"},{"start":10025.572,"end":10028.374,"text":"委員建議的那個方向今天部長在今年的1月初的時候就找我們"},{"start":10047.529,"end":10047.749,"text":"請回座"},{"start":10061.352,"end":10072.181,"text":"大家都討論電價的上漲大家也不曉得幅度有多少我查了一下我看你這個上漲電價留給國民黨來執政馬英九執政的時間一共漲了40.65%蔡英文當總統的話"},{"start":10081.349,"end":10101.557,"text":"是22.4% 啊你說你們慢慢漲叫做消波制防止我們的通貨膨脹 喔 命很高企的 實在 這樣快點炒到沒法去 休一次你大概漲現在要漲幾% 工業用電 高鐵要用電 大副用電 你告訴我我就知道了"},{"start":10102.355,"end":10118.607,"text":"目前他們工作相組其實正在就各種的方向正在討論目前還沒有定案還沒漲價疫情就把這個漲價消息放出去大家都以為漲得很高你在試水文"},{"start":10119.568,"end":10134.697,"text":"所以這個比例可以看出來不是國民黨時代長假你們以前都罵國民黨長假看等國民黨執政再來給他長繼續動長就會繼續執政你看法怎麼樣?要不要長?兩套的標準再來有一個問題可能會很嚴重未來會不會缺電?"},{"start":10150.011,"end":10178.894,"text":"不會啦,我們非常努力在做這個事情很有自信現在我看了一個那個特斯拉的執行長叫做馬斯克世界最有錢的人他說現在是缺晶片未來是缺電晶片的話AAI的這些晶片是出電的怪獸你覺得不重要人家是幾十年以後不是缺晶片就是缺電啦"},{"start":10179.975,"end":10186.634,"text":"你怎麼來應付這個問題?你們有沒有去考慮?這個可能是一個消息但是也是代表著一個警訊"},{"start":10192.423,"end":10213.295,"text":"這個部份是兩個部份因為現在目前在這個AI訓練的部份確實都是美國這幾個大公司那他們這個在訓練階段真的是用非常多的電訓練的話是大概不用什麼你不要把我騙你實體因為AI你生產的電才要出的大是那個時候的用電最大"},{"start":10213.835,"end":10214.996,"text":"我看了我們幾個工業會工商總會還是工業總會提出的一個產業報告裡面"},{"start":10242.266,"end":10258.292,"text":"幾乎六大工業總會都希望核能、核能產能延運那新國會準備要解套這個問題而執政黨是把核能當作行出牌,你的看法要不要延運?"},{"start":10259.632,"end":10268.805,"text":"您要告訴我一件事嗎?這個可能要不要演繹?您不是在這裡拍謝貢為了你們政策辯論現在是對著我們現實面臨的實際的問題有沒有希望、原因?"},{"start":10274.975,"end":10294.759,"text":"第一個當然在這個裡面委員有一些對演繹的提案但是這個法律的提案你法律的提案什麼不是國會裡面就是說不會把男的不能生孩子這個不能改變的話其他都可以改變你們也常常在改變你要不要"},{"start":10296.185,"end":10306.074,"text":"市商核電就幾個面向所以我報告也有提到一個是法律面最重要是核能安全那要有核安會來審查還有核廢電的問題我現在只問你如果缺電的話要不要研議啦你告訴我一下才知道啦"},{"start":10314.682,"end":10320.867,"text":"我看你左右為難這個是兩兩兩件事然後我們我們問的是一件事你要熱解我們對電力的攻擊齁目前都有沒有要支持核電廠研議我只問了重心點的問題"},{"start":10329.198,"end":10347.916,"text":"核電廠研議其實第一個問題就是安全的問題第二個是大家要有共識阿大家如果有共識的你們會不會反對這些的大前提如果都能夠解決那當然是一個所以表示有共識你們不反對了那核電的繩子牌就要被打破了對不對"},{"start":10349.358,"end":10372.31,"text":"我有講喔,其實核電品要是安全的問題很難為的回答你現在兩年幾十年把國家投資的核電廠將近五千億你們也把它擺在那邊把它報廢掉好,現在原來演藝要怎麼樣總經理你要不要回答一下還是能演幾場我看到你們碰到核電廠要不會演藝都閃來閃去啊"},{"start":10376.751,"end":10397.572,"text":"總經理,那個兩個核電廠一年幫你們賺400億喔,你要怎麼去解決這個問題?核電廠原理,純如剛才部長講的,它是一個安全問題,這些都必須要先克服。難怪你會繼續當總經理,你也很優秀。我跟你講,表示態度。"},{"start":10398.935,"end":10420.834,"text":"萬一缺電萬一需要核能廠你不要說那個在野黨把這個打破以前你們從來就是反對核能發電核能發電都利冷這裡面五個工會的理事長都一直要求考慮核電廠要不要延運能把定位降低一下"},{"start":10422.055,"end":10429.379,"text":"您現在剛才這個問題都不跟我說,要國民黨往往,最大的在野黨往往,要趕你們擦屁股,要看你們態度。"},{"start":10431.055,"end":10456.438,"text":"如果你們不敢講說支持核電廠研議我相信不要給他通過最好保持著民進黨執政的獨立性不要閃來閃去因為我相信啦缺電的情形核電廠不研議缺電的情形會滿臨終的不可以邊來邊去私底下我都有去探聽過"},{"start":10458.834,"end":10479.285,"text":"台電苦不堪言而已,主席站起來我要下台了,謝謝謝謝陳昌明委員接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言好,謝謝召委,請王部長"},{"start":10485.08,"end":10509.937,"text":"部長辛苦了 首先還是要先謝謝院長部長其實大林埔千村這個案件的大力支持不好做的工作不過這也是對鄉親部也是對整個歷史做一個負責那我還覺得就是執政團隊願意全力來促成我還是表達就當地的這個民意代表來說表達感謝那現在開始在進行相關的程序了2月29到5月16預定要辦63場的一個議員調查"},{"start":10513.639,"end":10518.681,"text":"最高達九成六的民眾是這個在進行當中那部裡面跟市府預定什麼時候把它完成然後接下來的下一步呢"},{"start":10535.813,"end":10557.371,"text":"這個部分有關於調查的部分跟市府已經達成共識會在6月底前會辦完6月底前會完成所有的調查那如果依照這樣的比例來說的話很有可能是相當高的一個比例那這個完成之後的下一步呢因為這大概6600位是針對有房有地的有地的或有房的那接下來的部分呢"},{"start":10558.132,"end":10573.288,"text":"對,那這一部分呢,市府目前的規劃就是全部都會做醫院調查,調查完以後就有房有地或無房無地的部分通通都會做所以其他的部分也會完成,運營什麼時候來把它全部完成?就是6月底全數完成,包括無房無地也在6月底全數完成?是是是"},{"start":10575.13,"end":10576.231,"text":"接下來我想請問一下部長"},{"start":10604.991,"end":10610.848,"text":"那部長除了一些的規劃費用以外還有沒有其他的一些比較重要的費用那預定怎麼來使用這些經費"},{"start":10613.497,"end":10638.455,"text":"向委員報告,我們編列的800億的搬遷費裡面大概有700多億是在723億對,是那這一部分包括還有一些我們所謂的人員搬遷這些會在其他項裡面那剛剛委員有說明的部分700多億的部分就是在我們人員的土地的補償建物的補償等等的這一些會佔的最大宗"},{"start":10638.895,"end":10642.877,"text":"這跟部長說明一下 其實土地跟整個建物大概就佔了9393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393939393"},{"start":10667.29,"end":10685.896,"text":"我也希望部長繼續再努力啦好嗎是是那這個都有吧委員的意見反應跟高雄市政府溝通的時候都有提到好我也希望部長持續來協助啦讓整件事情很不好做的一件工作但是如果能夠順利的完成我相信對整個鄉親對國家都是一件好事情啦是"},{"start":10686.496,"end":10703.921,"text":"好那接下來剩一點時間我再問一下台堂的問題其實這件事情其實從3月8號專家會議出來之後看得出來檢驗室的部分正常大概有3個但是有4個異常了齁那整個調查結果裡面幾乎也排除掉不管是從租吃到屠宰到販售大概都排除風險那檢驗階段"},{"start":10705.842,"end":10732.751,"text":"有可能啦 有可能會有些狀況所以如果部長從這邊來看起來台堂應該相對是安全沒有問題的沒有錯 台堂是很安全的事對 那 那 那但是檢驗室那邊當然他要去做一些釐清的那我們看到這10年啦大概租資的台堂啦特別台堂是國營事業我也不認為台堂有什麼樣刻意去違法的空間牟利又不是賺錢又不是放到自己的口袋毫無可言就是說領公務員的薪水的他去做這事情是毫無效益更何況還可能"},{"start":10733.471,"end":10760.146,"text":"更貴的而且是更不可能對所以說我覺得這件事情其實很詭異就是他其實檢驗到台糖是沒有什麼動機沒有什麼東西所以但是結論上面是台糖的安心豚17年我自己也都有在買台糖的豬肉因為我信任台糖的品質上的沒錯是但是我看到這個其實損失了5128萬甚至今天昭惟也有提到還有很多名譽上的損失甚至很多人的害怕到現在可能有的信則信不信則恨不信這個部分"},{"start":10763.737,"end":10767.238,"text":"後續會有什麼樣的動作嗎?包括未來怎麼樣去確保這樣的事情再次的發生?是 那這個部分我們確實有在討論怎麼樣來跟地方來就非常異常的這種情形的通報機制要不要做一個特別的設計那這個部分會在院的階層會去討論"},{"start":10783.683,"end":10808.146,"text":"所以未來會讓這個通報更謹慎一些當然確實我們要確保國人的食安的安全但是在一旦出來任何訊息萬一有落差的時候像後來被定調成是個案的時候台糖是安全的時候但是對台糖的傷害其實就整個造成那台糖還是國營事業當然是國家人民那是有點損失但是一般的豬農可能就承受不起任何一家豬農萬一發生這樣的狀況恐怕是承受不起的"},{"start":10808.546,"end":10833.734,"text":"所以在制度上面應該去建立一套更完整的一個機制確保食安安全但是也確保大家的這個出來的東西是不會傷及到像台堂我感覺他有點冤啦過年期間所有人員加班忙碌然後退貨等等然後到現在還在受損我認為我聽起來部長跟台堂這邊好像目前並沒有打算走司法的途徑是嗎"},{"start":10835.158,"end":10858.376,"text":"台糖他們有另外請律師的顧問再評估那對台糖來講就像委員講的恢復台糖的信譽大家來多多買台糖的豬肉我想這個是目前短期大家可以信譽的恢復是一件重要的事情趕快讓消費者恢復信譽但是另外是防止未來這樣的事情再次的發生那我認為這是一件重要的事情"},{"start":10861.038,"end":10880.937,"text":"對,機制如果能夠處理起來當然是一種方法但司法也是另外一種方法但是重點是能夠預防未來這樣事情發生我認為都是好的方法那我還是要問一下因為前兩天我看到盧秀燕市長在被議會質詢的時候他認為說這個是台堂個案才有啊台堂要自己努力去找顯然他認為是台堂要自己想辦法"},{"start":10881.758,"end":10900.695,"text":"部長認同這樣的說法嗎?事實上如果委員知道那一陣子甚至過年前開始到過年的期間臺堂同仁都加班把這個市面上所有同批的都幫他找出來甚至不同批的也找出來去驗等等的那臺堂這個就是這樣的一個單一的檢驗有這樣問題臺堂其實是費了非常大的力氣來自證我臺堂是安全的"},{"start":10907.381,"end":10921.694,"text":"所以部長覺得盧市長這樣講法其實並不公允對台糖其實是還蠻傷害的還蠻傷的嘛其實這樣也不公平啦齁因為從我們專家會來看台糖的部分幾乎盡了最大努力幾乎看起來是排除掉各種風險"},{"start":10924.437,"end":10949.378,"text":"對,台湯這麼重視自己的信譽而且有辦法這樣做,不惜成本的這樣做其實是花了非常多力氣來讓大家安心所以整個調查結果其實幾乎都排除掉台湯本身的風險但是檢驗階段反倒檢驗階段有一些不確定性到底是不是檢驗出問題沒有人敢確保所以當盧市長還把這個問題丟給台湯我認為其實是不公允的啦對台湯也是不公平的"},{"start":10949.938,"end":10975.956,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法吧?是,我們希望臺堂大家現在可以很確認他是一個非常安全的生產的豬肉我認為從事政治工作應該都要公允去處理我看到今天的這個臺中市的衛生局長也被質詢問到了他認為未來他也鬆口怎麼樣減少可以精進做法包括減少食安爭議就是遇到異常跟中央通報包括去追溯"},{"start":10976.476,"end":10976.576,"text":"是的 是的"},{"start":11002.676,"end":11022.524,"text":"對,我覺得這個最近就是我們衛福部會來跟地方怎麼樣更有效率的對這種非常特別的異常狀況怎麼樣有效的來聯繫所以當台中市的衛生局長都在比較鬆口、比較軟化的時候我其實覺得盧秀燕市長其實在這件事情上可以還台堂一個公道不需要用這麼嚴厲的態度來全部丟給台堂我反而覺得"},{"start":11025.425,"end":11047.419,"text":"在這件事情上面台湯其實已經盡了最大的努力盧市長還把慈恩丟給台湯我認為其實不公允的那我們來看一下接下來衛福部也開始做一些通報程序的改變這個大概在程序上經濟部會不會請衛福部也加快來完成這樣的一個修改內部的一個法規的一個修改會會我們會預定多久可以完成這個應該很快衛福部就會很快來做我們希望部長加快跟衛福部長聯繫好不好這樣事情盡快完成的話"},{"start":11054.804,"end":11058.586,"text":"我先宣告一下我們中午就不休息一直到詢答結束為止接下來請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":11085.749,"end":11087.014,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是邀請部長來請部長"},{"start":11096.27,"end":11115.004,"text":"部長最近這幾天台灣股市上兩萬點那台積電衝到了將近800點這個我想是全民都很振奮的消息但是我們在關心這一個台積電的一個先進的製程"},{"start":11115.524,"end":11137.126,"text":"是讓我們知道整個半導體的產業還有成熟製程而且成熟製程過去也是台灣的很強項尤其在全世界在缺這個車用晶片的時候台灣是可以說是給全世界的車廠很大的幫忙當時候全世界的需要這些晶片的都來台灣這邊來洽詢這個車用晶片"},{"start":11139.548,"end":11156.064,"text":"但是我們也在於我在上一個會期事實上就有說這個成熟製程那中國的這個鴻海布局之下我們擔心的是他們未來中國積極的擴張成熟製程未來會用以"},{"start":11156.724,"end":11178.86,"text":"以量來制價的方式然後讓整個全世界的這個成熟製程的一個市場被中國又用這種銷價競爭用惡性補貼的方式來打壓我們的一個成熟製程那我想部長那這幾個月來我們部理針對這樣的一個情況我們有怎樣的一個因應措施嗎?"},{"start":11179.747,"end":11179.787,"text":"市長市長"},{"start":11196.208,"end":11221.824,"text":"的設計商兩個一起來做RD的研發雖然他可能甚至是在40奈米、55奈米都有可能可是因為那個特殊的製程呢他就是很特定化那這個就不容易被取代所以我們這個部分其實我們的廠商也知道就是要盡量朝特殊的製程來做而不是那一種通用品的晶片通用品非常有可能中國大陸會用這個鴻海政策那個低價的政策來"},{"start":11225.646,"end":11225.666,"text":"．述"},{"start":11242.21,"end":11265.384,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11265.504,"end":11266.665,"text":"台灣金創計劃指這個晶片驅動台灣產業創新方案我們是規劃10年要用3000億的輔導跟投資我們的具體作為是怎樣?"},{"start":11289.143,"end":11293.185,"text":"這個部分在經濟部因為不同部會有做法那經濟部的部分有幾個大項包括這個IC設計的部分我們怎麼樣讓國內的IC設計要嘛有的從這個比如說原來他只會做28奈米那讓他往前進的十幾奈米推進那另外一個部分就是應用面他可以多應用在"},{"start":11312.253,"end":11312.273,"text":"部長﹖"},{"start":11328.706,"end":11357.2,"text":"那美國事實上針對我們剛才講的這個總統美國最近也不斷的有新聞會出來包括美國商務部長這個雷蒙多也說針對好像電信、汽車、國防供應鏈會使用中國製的成熟製程晶片要重啟調查那美國採取這樣的一個態度那我們台灣如果現在這個成熟製程裡面會不會有"},{"start":11358.42,"end":11384.415,"text":"這是車頭製程我們進入到了中國供應鏈那未來變成在美國重啟調查的對象然後我們台灣的廠商也進入到了這個被調查對象嗎應該是不會目前的這個部分就是看得非常明顯我想我們產業很清楚也就是說你在台灣設計你在台灣製造的話你賣給美國不管是車商、通訊或軍用的話都是安全的"},{"start":11385.696,"end":11390.96,"text":"對,那這個部分對台灣就是一個非常好的長期的上進。那我會不會說我又有販賣到中國,然後又要賣到美國?那個沒有關係,那個是我們的販賣,那個沒有問題。販賣沒有問題,但是在製造的一個過程。我想要強調就是說,"},{"start":11405.011,"end":11426.927,"text":"市長賴清德他在這幾個月來都說台灣必須要建立所謂信賴的產業就是我們應該要跟世界的一個民主同盟然後我們應該要針對這樣的一個產業鏈我們有一個自我保護而不會讓中國利用他們滲透的方式而且他們會用很多一些我剛剛講的就是說去惡意取得或者是用低價的銷價競爭"},{"start":11428.268,"end":11446.749,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11446.749,"end":11446.929,"text":"議員：邀請經濟部部長列席"},{"start":11471.766,"end":11471.786,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":11490.044,"end":11505.079,"text":"那他們也相信我們在這一塊我們會堅守我們的立場我想這個是不是更重要是我想這應該經濟部要去積極的有有其實我們跟廠商在溝通的時候廠商其實也很知道這樣的一個國際的趨勢好那再下一個齁"},{"start":11505.78,"end":11528.889,"text":"那下一個是要跟部長討論這個功夫法的問題那我們功夫法事實上就是要輔導這些工廠他們可以走向合法那我們已經功夫法上路也已經將近快要4年了那這4年來事實上我跟這些廠商常常都聚在一起但是他們確實在功夫法的適用上遇到很大的一個挫折"},{"start":11529.349,"end":11545.267,"text":"那現在我指的這個挫折勒,就是說你現在規定隔離綠帶要1.5公尺那但是這個隔離綠帶,我相信部長你是想下鄉會看啦他們過去是違法的工廠,啊他們就沒辦法,他們整個工廠就棄好了"},{"start":11546.749,"end":11564.343,"text":"議員："},{"start":11565.155,"end":11589.152,"text":"那對於他們來說這是一個不可能做到的事所以他們現在就只能納管之後然後就只能按兵不動然後每年是繳納管費他們也沒辦法再進一步的作為就是卡在這樣的一個隔離綠帶那部長我們對上隔離綠帶跟功夫法產生的這樣沒辦法輔導他們合法這件事情產生的漢格應該沒有辦法有一個"},{"start":11590.092,"end":11612.977,"text":"在進一步的作法嗎?其實這個部分有非常多的討論那廠商到需要留這個1.5米的時候是他要去土地合法那土地合法的時候他其實整個建築都要一起去看他這個建築有沒有符合相關的建築法規那我們隔離地帶其實在過往跟現在有很大的改變說第一個他不需要先拆"},{"start":11613.897,"end":11638.264,"text":"他是在這個建築的時候被審的時候一起來審而不是說先猜一次再猜第二次對但是部長你知道他們在審的過程他們就得要投入成本所以他們一定會預先預判到說我未來的下一步我會遇到什麼困難所以他們知道一旦我要走到合法我因為隔離綠帶我就沒辦法走到合法這一步他是不會去走的"},{"start":11638.604,"end":11643.048,"text":"但是我們這個部分我們其實非常願意用個案來告訴大家像有一些已經解決這個問題的部分的案例成功的案例讓大家知道可能有幾種模式是可以克服這個問題的那這個其實我們也非常願意到我會再開幾個協調會或是類似公聽會我們希望可以實質上讓這一些工廠他們走向合法"},{"start":11666.946,"end":11667.386,"text":"接下來我們請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":11697.853,"end":11698.393,"text":"市政情報部長市政部長"},{"start":11715.539,"end":11730.839,"text":"會不會缺電所以我們台電有很中長期的計畫在增加電源來供我們產業的需要是所以對於缺不缺電對產業來說對人民來說都非常的重要那但是我們也看到了接下來"},{"start":11732.083,"end":11753.037,"text":"我剛講的不管是晶圓廠或者是現在所謂工商大佬都在對於將來我看到你們的報告裡面將來的AI時代其實他會是一個吃電的怪獸而現在對於台積電接下去在台灣可能還有更多的擴廠計畫我們未來的能源配置就是我問的未來會不會缺電"},{"start":11755.018,"end":11756.319,"text":"所以我們這幾年為什麼這麼多再新增電廠其實我們都是事先跟廠商做溝通瞭解他們的用電需求來增加新的電源"},{"start":11771.611,"end":11787.746,"text":"我來自臺北市,我們當時就有發生臺北市東區門戶計畫的新建案,申請不到足夠的相關的它的容量臺電是說我有電,但我運不進來,所以要蓋變電所那現在你的電夠不夠,又不運得進來"},{"start":11790.655,"end":11810.103,"text":"內湖的這個部分委員應該很清楚 這個跟全台灣的電不一樣 這個就是缺少那個高壓變電所的部分 讓電送到這個東北內湖的部分所以除了缺不缺電 還有電能不能送到 這就是台電很重要的任務 不能拖了20年還在討論同一件事啊"},{"start":11811.484,"end":11826.141,"text":"所以現在台北市政府終於讓我們可以開始來蓋了所以現在正在蓋所以台電有兩個任務第一個要把電足額的送到相關的產業不能讓它受到影響第二個是我們現在的虧損"},{"start":11827.442,"end":11844.276,"text":"雖然是全民買單也有政策上的目標但是一樣未來的這些所謂高科技所謂的智慧AI時代將來這個吃電怪獸廠商可能也要想一想怎麼樣讓他們能夠在能源的配置上面要做出一些貢獻吧"},{"start":11845.678,"end":11859.812,"text":"不能單單靠政府或者是全民幫大家幫他們一起來處理我最近有看到一些民間的企業他們已經開始自主發展所謂的輕能發電也希望能夠得到經濟部的支持"},{"start":11861.035,"end":11881.41,"text":"院長、部長都應該好好地來想想這些廠商他們是不是在他的院區裡面、廠區裡面就可以自己有自己的發電系統?部長覺得咧?如果他們願意這樣做,我們都非常贊成。你看到的Open AI他們已經蓋晶圓廠的同時,他們也要在裡面做所謂的小型的合融合的發電。"},{"start":11882.891,"end":11910.724,"text":"我想核能在臺灣還是一個爭議的話題但是這是一個可以考慮讓民眾不用擔負這些大廠他們自己需要的用電這才是我覺得將來可以可長可久的相關的方向廠商如果會願意自備電源的話我們是都非常樂意所以部長我覺得這個是將來政策上面也要採取相關鼓勵的措施所以臺灣不能沒有台積電但是臺灣也不能只有台積電"},{"start":11912.244,"end":11938.856,"text":"臺積電是臺灣的護國神山但是同樣的相關的能源他們也應該要跟我們大家一起來承擔相關的責任所以重點是如果可能有廠商在廠區裡面做發電我覺得這是政府應該要鼓勵的第二個就是能源政策我希望部長不管怎麼樣在您看守的期間我們希望對未來剛剛講的這些配置上面的用電的規劃我覺得現在就要提出未來10年到20年的計畫"},{"start":11940.478,"end":11953.752,"text":"尤其是2025如果真的有所謂的非核家園你馬上撿的7%要從哪裡補回來這個也需要向立法院來報告我希望兩個禮拜之內給我一個完整的相關電力配置的報告"},{"start":11964.396,"end":11983.637,"text":"呃還是請一下委員齁上台下台的時候記得跟主席台鞠躬齁這是禮貌來接下來我們請洪孟楷委員發言來主席謝謝麻煩請王部長來請部長"},{"start":11991.009,"end":12014.327,"text":"部長直接請教這次蘇丹紅非法添加物的事件很多人見紙就說是這個不良廠商非法廠商他一個地址可以有10家公司一個地址可以有5家公司在那裡面做登記那資本額從20萬到50萬不一樣那但是到最後他變大家覺得說這就空頭公司嘛"},{"start":12014.727,"end":12032.909,"text":"一家進口被衛福部查到之後他馬上再換另外一家可能在此同意申請那他就拼那個抽查率啊沒被抽到也都可以讓你擺啊那源頭就在於是說這些空頭公司、空殼公司啊登記那麼多那我們經濟部商業司有沒有什麼樣的防弊機制"},{"start":12034.4,"end":12057.685,"text":"這個部分,衛福部給我們資料,我們現在都會再查只要任何一個相同,譬如說地址相同、負責人相同、公司相同只要任何一個相同,我們就可以回辦我們從過去黑心快篩,也有這樣的情況發生,它引申民宅我們看那個Google那個限地,它明明就是一個民宅,三樓半的套廳處但它裡面篩了十幾家公司"},{"start":12058.385,"end":12074.982,"text":"那登記人而且那些股東成分或是董事長相關都是親屬關係親屬關係也許比較難直接就追查出來但是同一個地址有那麼多公司又是民財的部分這應該馬上就可以調資料我們到底現在商業是還有多少這樣的公司"},{"start":12078.564,"end":12099.135,"text":"第一個公司的地址要登記在哪裡目前各國也都一樣沒有特別說在公司登記的時候說要要求只能在什麼地方才可以登記公司但我們是不是應該有示警機制或是說去了解一下這樣的一個公司還是說你商業室就只是大家來我登記登記完之後就放著"},{"start":12099.835,"end":12122.325,"text":"我沒有任何的追蹤管考機制從過去的黑心快篩到現在的這個蘇丹紅如果說能夠多一點示警的話我常常強調很多時候對我們不要以小人之心度君子之腹但有些時候必要的把關是應該的那在這件事情上面其實就很明顯大家覺得說很離譜啊"},{"start":12124.458,"end":12148.351,"text":"跟委員報告,如果假設今天這麼多的公司登記,好幾十萬家那如果沒有提到說這個可能有嫌疑的話事實上商業單位不會知道要怎麼去查這個東西那能不能,好那我先請教我們現在Data Base裡面有沒有譬如說同一個地址裡面有至少超過5家公司以上在同一個地址那這一些要不要主動先去了解一下"},{"start":12150.222,"end":12153.083,"text":"跟委員報告齁其實在公司登記階段他要登記在這個地址他就要附一些證明文件"},{"start":12171.272,"end":12199.869,"text":"那剛才委員提到說一個地址裡面有非常多的公司它的狀況非常多那我們必須去看這些哪些是合法哪些不合法比如說現在很多的這種小企業或是新創企業它其實一張桌子一個電腦對所以本席剛剛已經開宗明先強調說它不是一般的商辦大樓我當然了解有一些商辦大樓它可能一次裡面會有很多家公司它可能譬如說它新創公司他們就在同一個會議室share那個辦公空間這本席了解"},{"start":12201.01,"end":12220.892,"text":"但是那比較屬於是商辦大樓嘛那我現在講是說你們應該可以去調個資料這非常快而且這絕對不用成本我們只要去了解是說有哪些地址他有重複比如說5家以上都在同一個地址再去清查人工比對是說這些地址到底是民宅還是商辦大樓還是一般的公司"},{"start":12221.873,"end":12235.318,"text":"這做不到嗎?可以跟委員報告那什麼時候可以做?我們其實在現在衛福部給我們的名單裡面我們去比對我們這幾家有問題的我們都已經去把它抓出來那剛才也講就是說現在公司登記跟"},{"start":12236.383,"end":12263.002,"text":"公司登記跟商業登記的加速非常多所以我們一定是從有問題的公司這邊去救他的負責人甚至是說影響什麼比較廣比如說食品進口業因為現在大家看到可能食品進口業相關這個是比較影響廣大的能不能先從這一些類型先去做那個跟委員報告齁我們確實是從食品進口因為我們現在是什麼時候能夠做出來什麼時候能夠清查出來什麼時候能夠再找出不要再有下一個蘇丹紅這樣的廠商"},{"start":12264.451,"end":12288.072,"text":"我們比對的名單從衛福部那邊找到有進口這些辣椒粉的這些名單我們已經提供給衛福部了我們其實禮拜六禮拜天那天兩天都已經加班把這個名單比對出來了部長來來來部長還是要請您是部長本期間花了是4分多鐘時間就主要跟您講的是說我們其實有更多的作為可以更積極的去預防"},{"start":12289.451,"end":12314.882,"text":"部會是畫部會的合作好不好?對是沒有錯我只用一分鐘的時間我再請教因為現在可能電價的部分馬上就會漲價了看起來是漲價勢在必行但有沒有考慮過有沒有開源節流的部分本席先比對了今天的這個台電的預算書2023年到2024年用人成本人事費用增加多少?部長手邊有沒有資料?這個有點細"},{"start":12317.379,"end":12337.754,"text":"用人費用有點細這個細節可能要看那個資料才會知道旅猜費用有多少增加猜旅費用那個委員是不是我請台電會後再給您資料好不好其實這不用因為本期其實已經查完了嘛我只是想要知道是說為什麼會增加那麼多的用人費用跟猜旅費用"},{"start":12338.659,"end":12366.955,"text":"用人費用增加主要是因為最近這幾年我們的那個 增加多少錢 退休潮很高不是啊 你不是退休金沒有增加 退休金沒有增加太多啊 最主要是薪資的部分啊增加了2023年到2024年 這預算書增加了17億的用人費用是不是 退休金的那個 不止退休金啦 你不用一直扯退休金 是 它是整體的用人費用連薪資都增加了 理財費用增加了多少"},{"start":12368.567,"end":12391.505,"text":"旅運費增加了5億元旅運費可能有包括說國內國外出差但是怎麼會增加5億元本期要提出來是講是說有沒有開源跟節流就是說你現在在做電價的上漲的時候當然會直接轉嫁到民生的成本但另外一部分我們有沒有做節流"},{"start":12392.366,"end":12396.154,"text":"為什麼會我們的用人費用也大增為什麼我們的旅餐費用也大增而且這都比2023年成長了那麼多"},{"start":12400.281,"end":12426.946,"text":"這個沒有問題,這個都可以提相關新聞資料給那個財務委員、財務委員、黃委員、主席財務部長,我先要要求你先把沒有問題這句話收回並且給本席一個書面報告當然尊重主席,但是我說要求經濟部下午給本席一個書面報告好好說明為什麼會用人費用跟旅運費用增加那麼多本席會持續追這個議題,好嗎?謝謝"},{"start":12430.08,"end":12430.62,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":12465.89,"end":12494.476,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請經濟部部長來請問部長部長好其實國家發展力能我們都很支持那如果說在特定的任務下面從我們經濟部有實質控制的公司去成立公司協助推動國家的政策這個方向我其實公開說過很多次我是支持的"},{"start":12495.305,"end":12524.76,"text":"但在國營事業用這些人的時候有一個重點那個重點是用人為財我們用專業的可以做事的而不是拿國營事業來進行政治酬庸這樣子的觀念部長你認同吧?我贊成是你認同嗎?是但我就看不懂台研立了這家公司成立了以後本來百分之百是台研的吧?"},{"start":12526.328,"end":12543.706,"text":"接下來用人實際上面的狀況包括了第一任的董事長陳其韻那您在上一屆國會的時候相關的案件你們已經已給剪掉了是到接下來任用了吳榮輝嘉義縣的前副縣長"},{"start":12545.912,"end":12572.028,"text":"這個到底是用人為財還是在醜用我相信社會有一把尺但我現在更關心的是什麼我更關心的事情是我們為了推動公共政策為了執行國家的政策好不容易成立了一家公司有沒有被特定的派系或是權貴把持的現象我接下來秀這張圖給部長看"},{"start":12574.369,"end":12599.707,"text":"去年部長在回答臺灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員的質詢的時候您說到您當現任臺研的總經理吳博新你幫他說我幫他澄清說他沒有在立洋下面任職過我相關的新聞跟新聞稿我全部都看過你說的沒有錯但大家在質疑的是什麼大家在質疑的是他是憑什麼憑什麼對這個業務"},{"start":12603.536,"end":12625.696,"text":"這不懂也不熟 可以做到台研綠能的總經理 大家找了半天 原來發現他是我們綠洋集團 英企的綠洋集團 包括了小谷 谷聖輝 包括了陳文宏 他們所把持集團的下包商 現在做到了台研綠能的總經理"},{"start":12627.145,"end":12644.537,"text":"結果他當總經理以後啊總經理裡面的特助任用的是誰啊任用的就是陳文宏的兄弟啊陳文榮啊他的陳家麗陽集團啊已經正式入駐了台言綠能啊這件事情部長您清楚嗎"},{"start":12647.864,"end":12672.374,"text":"過往在委員在要我們去查相關台顏綠能的名股的時候有做一些的調查這樣的狀況您了解了嗎?您覺得應該要繼續容忍下去嗎?委員這一張圖提到這個吳國欽跟可我先不講吳國欽的部分剛我還沒有提到吳國欽現在我要跟你focus"},{"start":12673.294,"end":12691.266,"text":"是立洋集團的小谷跟陳文宏還有吳國欣的關係我還沒有提到吳國欣立洋集團的小谷陳文宏吳國欣結果吳國欣進去了以後總經理是帶的是誰帶的是陳文宏的兄弟我只請教你說這樣的狀況您了解不了解"},{"start":12692.332,"end":12699.196,"text":"因為我就是看到委員這個圖因為這個的可危跟那個可危不一樣委員這兩個是不同的可危我知道我現在就沒有提到吳國欽嘛我從頭到尾剛好跟你提到吳國欽三個字嘛至於委員在講之前的這個相關的這個股東的部分那委員也知道我們也送檢調來瞭解這個狀況了"},{"start":12715.117,"end":12726.045,"text":"我剛也說了嘛,你把陳秦日壽剪掉這個我都OK啦但我只希望你針對問題回答我現在做具體的一件事情你知不知道台言綠能去年虧了多少錢是有虧損你知不知道虧了多少錢因為他的虧損是因為他的工程費還沒有拿到這個我們一樣一樣來嘛你知不知道他虧了多少錢"},{"start":12741.386,"end":12770.072,"text":"因為他是下面的下面啦吼沒有關係啦我會問問題的話我資料一定都找好了到今年二月底到今年二月底他的股東權益只剩下一億六千多萬本來是三億多嘛真知道三億多嘛所以為什麼前兩天發重訊虧損已經達到實收資本額的二分之一"},{"start":12771.853,"end":12791.465,"text":"為什麼虧損會達到10週資本額的二分之一因為去年一年虧了2.7億那時候的總經理是誰就是不願用專業的人搞權貴派系酬庸搞出來立洋集團的下下包商吳柏鑫"},{"start":12793.147,"end":12814.395,"text":"虧了2.7億我再請教部長您不熟沒有關係旁邊國營事業司的司長可以代打我都OK你知不知道走了多少人去年一年走了多少人來請司長因為部長說他不熟我問部長這麼細的問題可能對部長不公平走了多少人應該是走了大概將近有60幾位"},{"start":12816.224,"end":12838.509,"text":"編制了多少人?編制大概一百多位,不過他就有些壞,因為他的工程在承包完那個台尼嘉慶的案子以後,暫時還沒有新的案子進來。台尼嘉慶的案子齁,我已經都掌握。呆帳提列多少?人家為什麼不付錢?我們下次質詢的時候,我會繼續問。因為主席站起來啊,我要尊重主席的才是。前部長。"},{"start":12839.409,"end":12862.938,"text":"拜託市長回去幫忙了解以後我們下一次在詢答的時候內容可以更實質一點這樣可以嗎?不過我真的要跟委員講吳國欽跟委員講的那個可危完全沒關是另外一個可危這個完全對他太不公平了我就跟你說我還沒有提到吳國欽這個人嘛我是要跟委員說委員你可能要先回去澄清一下沒有關係啊我們繼續講繼續針對實質的問題回答的時候再麻煩部長先回去準備好"},{"start":12869.08,"end":12893.715,"text":"這樣可以嗎?好,可以。好,謝謝黃國昌委員。好,接下來我們請吳春成委員發言。好,主席。那個我們請部長。來,請王部長。"},{"start":12901.567,"end":12917.856,"text":"部長好。我是民眾黨的幹事長吳春成。民眾黨的兩個目標就是除弊跟新利。所以剛才我們的總召黃國昌砲火門內就是要除弊。"},{"start":12922.856,"end":12945.769,"text":"但是我要跟部長提的是心力所以部長不要太緊張我們談的是一個心力的問題那我要因為我非常關注這個高齡化社會的議題那我要請部長就是來思考長壽時代來臨經濟部的角色是什麼"},{"start":12947.409,"end":12963.957,"text":"因為我發現我們各部會都沒有準備好這個迎接長壽的這個計畫所以我今天跟部長來討論的是如何讓扶養比的分子變分母我想經濟部一定很關注這個扶養比的問題"},{"start":12967.434,"end":12990.387,"text":"問部長因為分子就是被撫養的人分母就是在工作的人口因為少子化所以工作的人口越來越小分母就越來越小因為高齡化所以分子就越來越大是不是這樣子?"},{"start":12992.469,"end":13018.215,"text":"是這樣子那預計我目前是4比1啦四個人撫養一個人那這個到2040年會變成2比1這個負擔非常沉重接下來會比較1比1然後一直發展分子會大於分母那個叫崩潰的時代臺灣整個要崩潰了請問部長這個有什麼解套現在有我們為了這事情在做什麼準備"},{"start":13020.517,"end":13045.433,"text":"確實這個是一個大的議題那很多的東亞國家也都面臨這樣的一個嚴重的議題那政府的這個部分確實應該很多的方面來解決這樣一個問題要從很多方面是其實對部長也同意這是一個嚴重的問題但是呢看起來我們都沒有沒辦法都沒有什麼很好的方法"},{"start":13046.158,"end":13056.512,"text":"那我要跟大家跟這個就是這次我不到立委員來提的就叫壯時代有一個方法就是讓分子壯起來把分子拉下來當分母"},{"start":13059.401,"end":13076.422,"text":"我們現在很大的問題就是未來長高壽的人會佔人口的一半但是我們現在政府都弱化他們那你沒辦法因為他會大於因為少子化所以這個分子一定會大於分母有一天那整個台灣就會崩潰"},{"start":13077.919,"end":13099.232,"text":"那我知道這個經濟部其實也有注意到這個問題了在鼓勵這個高齡就業就是有中小企業發展條例第36條要鼓勵企業來提高僱用中高齡及高齡者那這個我要問部長這個理由我覺得這個利益當然很好"},{"start":13101.411,"end":13110.274,"text":"但是我覺得沒有切中重點因為你這個辦法當中是鼓勵獎勵這個45歲以上的有這個租稅優惠1到150%但是部長看一下這個圖其實在45到19歲"},{"start":13122.042,"end":13128.607,"text":"台灣的勞參率有85,其實跟各國沒有太大差異50到55歲之間76.3也沒有太大差異我們真的開始落後這個各國的落後各國從55歲以上"},{"start":13140.984,"end":13157.141,"text":"我們只剩下59、60歲以上只剩下39、65歲以上只剩下9.6所以呢這個你如果按照你這個辦法大家都聘用企業都聘用45歲的啦沒有人要聘用55歲65歲的啦所以你根本沒有解決問題"},{"start":13158.615,"end":13181.015,"text":"你根本沒有解決問題所以我在這裡建議因為我知道經濟部有提出這個我們可不可以除了你45歲以上有租稅要有等距的優惠更加的獎勵是不是經濟部目前的版本是增加雇用45歲以上的租稅優惠150%可不可以再增加"},{"start":13182.656,"end":13203.006,"text":"65歲以上的租稅有離到250趴因為我們這個問題太嚴重了我們韓國30幾趴我們只有9點多趴這個問題如果按照你現在的辦法是無法解決的那這一點那個部長覺得可不可以接受謝謝委員那我們現在確實草案還在徵詢意見當中那委員這個意見我們會回去來檢討一下OK部長可以考慮我們可以來檢討一下好謝謝"},{"start":13212.807,"end":13213.327,"text":"麻煩部長請王部長"},{"start":13246.794,"end":13262.529,"text":"美國商務部的部長在12日表示美國企業已經意識到我們的晶片供應鏈過度集中於世界上少數幾個國家。部長您怎麼看美國?對美國商務部長的發言有什麼看法?"},{"start":13263.476,"end":13267.477,"text":"那我想這個部分我們隨時都注意美方的想法看法還有他到底在關切什麼事情那這個也坦白講也是因為台灣的台積電他的客戶那美國也是他最大的客戶所以台積電有這樣的除了在台灣持續加碼投資之外也有到這個美國日本跟德國設廠的這樣的一個"},{"start":13293.095,"end":13294.356,"text":"會否影響到台灣的整體國家安全?"},{"start":13319.736,"end":13346.597,"text":"對台灣來講我們台灣政府也有台灣的國家的利益所以對我們來講我們一方面在台灣加大投資那最先進的還有包括現在最先進的封裝等等我們都會讓他留在台灣但是他另外也到國際佈局所以我們的策略就是希望他在台灣的投資還是要優先然後另外再到其他的國家去投資"},{"start":13347.658,"end":13375.612,"text":"對,部長我還是一樣認同因為對我們來說把所有最重要的所有各個國家的利害關係集中在台灣的這個本島的範圍內是能夠增加台灣的這個整體的韌性畢竟從我們最新的這個營收我看起來台積電是7700多億聯電加世界先進整個加起來大概是快要到24兆新台幣所以如果有必要的話我們還是希望說能夠跟美方溝通"},{"start":13376.372,"end":13393.697,"text":"他們討論不是說減少風險然後就減少在臺灣的配置反而是因為要確保臺灣是在他們利害的利益跟危害的產業鏈的一環就是強調說如果你擔心你想要分散風險的最好方式就是鞏固臺灣"},{"start":13394.737,"end":13414.159,"text":"這是一個很重要的訊息不是分散資源到其他的分散他們的風險到其他你說日本也好或者是德國歐洲而是確保在臺灣的這一些晶圓的產業鏈能夠被鞏固鞏固跟分散風險是兩個不同的概念所以對於經濟部長我也是希望部長能夠"},{"start":13415,"end":13438.516,"text":"跟美方在接洽的時候要強調與其花費大筆的人力資源來去興建其他國家在興建新廠甚至是用更不符合成本不符合經濟成本的方式只為了要達到風尚風選鞏固台灣是最好最有效而且最符合台灣美國利益跟自由世界利益的一個方式這個方式你可不可以去跟美方來去"},{"start":13438.996,"end":13457.612,"text":"我完全贊成委員的意見那確實我們也有自己的國家安全自己國家的利益那再者就是說台灣現在半導體在台灣的生產是最有效率的那這個其實不是對台灣好而已而且是對全世界都好那也讓技術可以不斷的進步所以這一些的東西都是我們會考慮的點"},{"start":13459.013,"end":13486.196,"text":"那這個部長我還是在強調包含整體的國家利益之外還有符合我們自己由我選區嘉義縣的選區出來的利益經濟部能不能滿足台積電的水電需求比方說現在有媒體報導有一些半導體大廠可能進駐我們嘉義的科學園區我想請教部長短期的部分可能是由縣府來負責無水廠的再生水那長期的部分可能還是要仰賴經濟部該海水的淡化廠這個部分掌握狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":13487.678,"end":13487.698,"text":"謝謝,謝謝部長。"},{"start":13515.478,"end":13533.199,"text":"謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來我們請王洪威委員發言謝謝主席我請那個王部長王美花王部長來請部長"},{"start":13538.801,"end":13539.282,"text":"您所瞭解的狀況是不是這樣?"},{"start":13563.743,"end":13587.821,"text":"目前這個部分確實都是美國政府來決定的部分我個人還不清楚美國政府的補助的金額所以你目前沒有辦法確定沒有辦法確定好另外我想這陣子大家都是集中在就是有關於電價上漲那條幅是多少那現在呢之前就是一直都傳出你們希望能夠把這個條幅"},{"start":13589.462,"end":13590.062,"text":"一千億還是1500億?"},{"start":13606.756,"end":13615.581,"text":"我們跟院裡面的爭取確實我們有爭取希望能夠比較多的1500億對不對因為你能補助到1500億然後你的補助額就你的這個條幅就可以降低可是部長我現在告訴你一件事情"},{"start":13624.105,"end":13643.327,"text":"我現在就告訴你,你的這個美夢可能會受到一些阻礙你知道為什麼呢?我今天早上特別問主計長我說我們稅收超成3600億他說沒有,沒有那麼多他說七折八扣因為有一些公債的發行等等之類最後剩下來只有1500億"},{"start":13645.427,"end":13668.106,"text":"所以我說只需要1500億 那麼台電也想要補助 然後我們勞保基金也快要破產 勞保基金也希望能爭取補助我說哇 大家都想著你這筆錢 那所以如果按照他的說法 其實這次稅收超出 他在扣除其他的他的必要的支出之後 只有1500億"},{"start":13670.413,"end":13688.773,"text":"所以他顯然很難完全補助給你而且他說了一句話他說如果全部都給補助給台電的話那麼明年度的預算很難編他說因為就沒有剩餘了所以部長這是不是你第一次聽到的噩耗"},{"start":13690.616,"end":13703.893,"text":"因為院裡面還在試算所以我們還沒有得到最後的答案還是你是只是跟他喊價而已沒有沒有反正是拿到最高的1500億但是事實上最後應該拿到補助金額撥補金額不會那麼高"},{"start":13706.348,"end":13722.424,"text":"因為你們確實還在試算當中所以你們要求1500億但是今天主計長講得非常清楚第二件事情沈記長也說了他說因為到目前為止稅收超徵的這部分到現在沈記部沒有審定他"},{"start":13723.405,"end":13751.001,"text":"他說如果要審定,因為你要撥補的話,你要等到他審定之後你才能夠拿到錢也就是說起碼要到七八月份之後那所以也就是說你不會立刻拿到錢,你知道這事嗎?這個都有他們的程序我大概知道那個流程部分好,所以如果請教一下如果你能拿到1500億的話,我們電價是不是可以控制預估漲到10到12%?"},{"start":13754.509,"end":13766.696,"text":"確實兩邊會有互動的關係沒有錯但是具體的數字恐怕我沒有辦法跟委員做說明兩到三趴的差別對不對有可能對但是因為細節其實是小組在審議我其實細節不知道"},{"start":13769.898,"end":13782.472,"text":"我要講一下就說要台電如果要補得多的話那麼勢必會影響我們明年度這是組計長說的我是今天也是第一次聽說我一直以為是大概3600億左右但是他跟證他說沒有這麼多"},{"start":13785.876,"end":13797.02,"text":"那麼如果我們現在就跟我們的行政院全部要來補助給台電那會有一個問題那會影響未來新政府520之後賴清德上來他的預算明年就很難編了是不是有這樣的狀況因為具體的財政怎麼編是確實是主計長這邊主計處這邊我說啊他現在是巧互難為無米之炊啊"},{"start":13813.993,"end":13814.013,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13833.211,"end":13844.601,"text":"好,謝謝王宏威委員接下來我們請陳俊宇委員不在嚴寬恒委員不在林楚英委員不在徐欣盈委員不在葉元芝委員不在高金素梅委員不在蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":13857.651,"end":13862.236,"text":"王美惠委員不在羅明財委員不在鍾嘉斌委員不在劉建國委員不在"},{"start":13874.107,"end":13896.967,"text":"好,登記發言的委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢,詢答結束另外有葉元之委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程進行到此明天星期四繼續開會現在休息謝謝"},{"start":13904.411,"end":13910.026,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":13932.292,"end":13933.493,"text":"國發會三次主委要出國"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}