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謝謝主席 我請國防部次長 楊次長好 請國防部次長次長 所有人好我給部長寫下一個啦 我看他是店嘛有人說這個案件是洪仲修的2.0版"},{"start":32.455,"end":48.546,"text":"你們那個國防部以前洪仲秋這個案子我很注意那個書叫做不當管教不當管教後來檢調查了是我們指揮官也被拔掉了所以你對於勞動部這一次的事情"},{"start":49.306,"end":78.259,"text":"你的看法怎麼樣?報告召委,這個勞動部的這個事情我實在是不便發表個人的在這個地方發表個人的看法但是對於洪仲秋這個事情的確是一個令人遺憾的事情那國防部對這個事情發生之後我們也做了相關的檢討那不管是司法調查或是我們自己內部調查方面都還給這個事情都把這個事情給還原了把這個事情的真相給釐清了那跟召委報告"},{"start":79.983,"end":83.533,"text":"我們軍中還有我們警察、警戒"},{"start":85.083,"end":111.459,"text":"還有我們的外交部都一直層出不窮傳出很多海外的像橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡那當然跟我們派在那邊的大使有沒有關係大家各說各話然後巴西外館也出問題那警察裡面像屏東也有警察所長跟警員"},{"start":113.314,"end":128.371,"text":"吵吵鬧鬧什麼都有所以對於這種公務體系的這種失控跟脫序的行為我們軍中看法怎麼樣你們要怎麼做往後怎麼做"},{"start":130.632,"end":141.701,"text":"這個合理的管教包括委員合理的管教還有這個善待部署照顧官兵這是我們國防部一直在努力的目標那也跟各位委員還有各位委員報告這個軍隊是一個跟民間"},{"start":146.445,"end":165.536,"text":"或是公部門管理有點區隔的這個管理的方式是有點區隔的因為我們講求的是絕對服從我們的軍人將來在戰場上面一定要執行保國衛民的責任在某種訓練上面我們要講求絕對服從在某種管理上面我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律這個要特別跟委員做報告了"},{"start":165.916,"end":166.837,"text":"我當海軍陸戰隊的我們以前叫合理的叫做"},{"start":183.606,"end":183.946,"text":"那部長請上來吧"},{"start":206.6,"end":234.005,"text":"你好你今天剛才曾經霸凌520今天11月20號剛才霸凌霸凌裡面你覺得你自己我看你是盡心盡力啦你自己這樣分手我扒過分我想我不及格啦我承認我不及格我覺得這件事情你的部分我查理"},{"start":236.754,"end":257.774,"text":"會否發生事情有人向你通報有沒有人通報給你如果你都不知道被資訊被Block掉那你就無理直言那時候知道說這個資訊這個反應有起的那你沒處理那你就你不對了那你感覺你是怎樣你是完全不知道還是"},{"start":263.32,"end":284.224,"text":"早上一直執行到現在聽太多了聽太多了有的是說他這個分署長肚子很硬什麼不管我有去查啦他的身家背景、他的娘家、他的婆家我已經都查了我那不錯啦我那經濟民情好沒做這個討論沒吃這個討論也沒關係啦也沒關係齁所以在這裡是在表演在做表演就對了"},{"start":292.355,"end":299.838,"text":"那你如果說你當部長是政務官是要對政策負責那裡面的內控"},{"start":302.295,"end":326.87,"text":"這些下面反映的事情你是怎麼來接受這些管道或者是如果你沒有再繼續因為太龐大了 人員太多了就一個勞動發展署就包括業聘僱人員就有兩千多人那是很多啊 怕死人喔所有的員額裡面真的公務人員占不到四分之一其他都是業聘僱的"},{"start":328.567,"end":354.66,"text":"那我們公務體系的業聘僱人員真的養太多了而且那個勞動條件也不太好待遇也不太好像我們食藥署在邊境查驗的資訊都很假的每天都被窮犯在海關那裡寸步難行那我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊如果是有這樣子的話我是覺得要檢討啦"},{"start":356.243,"end":372.017,"text":"那如果是薪水太低也要給人家高啦那我覺得公務人員齁我這裡要跟大家肯定啦大家都磕磕磕磕到要死啊磕磕磕到要死要來這裡上這個班齁那薪水也不在外面啦在外在醫療這個空間這薪水實在是無關啦齁"},{"start":373.218,"end":391.591,"text":"每天在那裡拖廊我就覺得很不捨很不捨我看健保署裡面那些員工也都是蠻累的也不能申請加班費我們在外面的財團法院或社團法院的醫院那個申請加班是沒有人敢擋的"},{"start":392.898,"end":415.009,"text":"那你們勞動部是在要求人家的職業安全條件的結果你們裡面都是過勞三更半夜在發LINE我不敢三更半夜給我們的員工發LINE我怕人家給我投訴你這樣三個半夜發LINE亂搞一通然後還要十分鐘回覆有這種事嗎 部長"},{"start":418.689,"end":423.17,"text":"所以這個心理教育因為這個文書黨本身我看是念社工的嘛"},{"start":446.539,"end":474.976,"text":"是劣色功德應該同理心很強齁所以我看你要整個系統要檢討啦當然那是系統的問題為你的次長、為你的署長都要一個一個檢討整個系統要檢查不然的話這個還是會出事啦我看還是會出事齁所以今天這樣你自己已經半年半年就任半年齁你自己打不及格我是給你鼓勵啦齁"},{"start":475.936,"end":480.4,"text":"這次教訓是一個很有意義的教訓我想我出來勞動部我也是第一次進到行政部門"},{"start":502.301,"end":523.117,"text":"那麼對龐大的官僚體系其實我是陌生的所以我也非常介乘恐懼那麼我期待跟文官之間發展出一個合作友善的關係可是我也忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或者是惡習乃至於我不曾想像的我早上講的"},{"start":531.673,"end":556.79,"text":"那個邪惡的問題那整個文官體制跟我們當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝跟落差我們的社群網路媒體政治對於我們的文官體制的凌遲跟剝削也是不遑多讓的我親眼看到我的文官"},{"start":558.936,"end":561.997,"text":"我希望從我這個例子可以提醒大家看到這裡面的問題那我當然"},{"start":587.978,"end":587.998,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1438,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（13時8分）謝謝主席，我請國防部楊次長。"],["主席：請國防部次長。"],["楊次長基榮：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：次長，讓部長先休息一下，我看她是累了！","有人說這個案件是洪仲丘的2.0版，之前針對國防部洪仲丘這個案子，我也很注意，那時候稱為不當管教，後來經過檢調的調查，指揮官也被拔掉了。請問你對勞動部這件事情的看法是如何？"],["楊次長基榮：報告召委，關於勞動部這件事情，我實在是不便在這個地方發表個人的看法，不過洪仲丘這件事情的確是讓人遺憾，國防部在事情發生之後也做了相關的檢討，不管是司法調查或是我們自己的內部調查，都已經把這件事情還原、都已經把事情的真相釐清，以上向召委報告。"],["蘇委員清泉：在我們的軍中、警界以及外交部，這類事情一直層出不窮的傳出，像在橫濱的處長也是自殺身亡，與我們派去那邊的大使有沒有關係？大家是各說各話。此外，巴西的外館也出了問題。在警界的部分，像屏東也有所長與警員吵吵鬧鬧，什麼都有！因此，對於這種公務體系的失控及脫序的行為，你們軍中的看法如何？你們往後要怎麼做？"],["楊次長基榮：報告委員，合理的管教、善待部屬以及照顧官兵，這是國防部一直在努力的目標。同時也向各位委員報告，軍隊與民間或公部門的管理方式是有點區隔的，因為我們講求的是絕對服從，我們的軍人將來在戰場上一定要執行保國衛民的責任。在某種訓練上，我們要講求絕對服從；在某種管理上，我們也必須要嚴格有相當的紀律，這個要特別向各位委員報告。當然我們也不可以因此而有不合理的管教，甚至把不合理的訓練拿來當作藉口，對官兵產生霸凌或欺侮的現象。"],["蘇委員清泉：我以前是在海軍陸戰隊當兵，有一句話，合理的是訓練，不合理的是磨練。"],["楊次長基榮：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在這句話還管用嗎？還是繼續這樣混下去？"],["楊次長基榮：沒有、沒有，你放心，現在絕對不會有這樣的現象。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長，請上來吧！"],["楊次長基榮：謝謝委員。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，你今天剛好上任半年，520上任，今天是10月20日，剛好是半年，在這半年內，我看你是盡心盡力，你自己打幾分？"],["何部長佩珊：我不及格啦！我承認我不及格。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得這件事情，你的部分是差在底下發生事情，是否有人向你通報？有沒有人通報給你？如果你都不知道，資訊被蒙蔽掉，這樣就沒有你的責任。但是如果這些資訊和反映有上達，你卻沒處理，這樣就是你不對了。你覺得你是怎麼樣？你是完全不知道，或是……從早上一直質詢到現在，聽太多了，有人說這個分署長後台很硬，所以我去查了，她的身家背景、她的娘家、她的婆家，我已經都查了，確實是不錯，確實經濟面真好，不做這個工作也沒關係，所以在這裡就是做表現的。","你擔任部長是政務官，要對政策負責，部裡面的內控以及底下反映的事情，你是如何接收這些管道？因為太龐大了、人員太多了，光是一個勞動發展署，包括約聘雇人員在內就有二千多人，真的是很多，嚇死人了！在所有的員額中，真的公務人員占不到四分之一，其他都是約聘僱人員。其實我們公務體系的約聘僱人員真的養太多了，而且勞動條件也不太好、待遇也不太好，像食藥署的邊境查驗人員薪水都很低，還要常常被人家恐嚇，在海關那邊寸步難行。如果我們勞動力發展署這邊或是勞動部這邊有這樣的情況，我是覺得要檢討啦！如果是薪水太低，也要將它調高。我覺得要給予公務人員肯定，大家都考得要死、讀書讀得要死，到這裡上這個班，薪水也沒多高。以我在醫療界來看，這個薪水實在是不高，每天就在那裡受折磨，我是覺得很不捨！我看健保署的那些員工也都是蠻累的，也不能申請加班費，我們在外面的財團法人或社團法人的醫院，申請加班費是沒有人敢擋的。你們勞動部應該是要求勞工的職業安全條件，結果你們內部職員卻是過勞，甚至三更半夜發LINE。我不敢三更半夜給我的員工發LINE，因為我會怕耶！我怕被人家投訴耶！你們這位分署長三更半夜發LINE，亂搞一通，還要人家10分鐘內回覆，有這種事嗎？部長，是不是有這種事？不就是瘋子？"],["何部長佩珊：我想確實是不正常，而且也不應該啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：甚至動不動會自裁，這個真的是不可理喻！所以這個心理教育……我看到這位分署長本身是念社工的，同理心應該要很強，坦白講，我覺得你應該針對整個系統去檢討。"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這是系統的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：包括次長、署長都要一個一個的檢討，整個系統都要檢查，不然我看還是會出事。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：到今天已經就任半年了，你自己打不及格，我是給你鼓勵啦！往後你要怎麼做，講一下？我是召委，不能超過時間，所以你有17秒，趕快！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。當然這次的事件是一個很有意義的教訓，我任職勞動部也是第一次進入行政部門，面對龐大的官僚體系，其實我是陌生的，所以我也非常戒慎恐懼。我期待與文官之間發展出合作、友善的關係，但是我忽略了文官體制之間有難以掌控的陋習或惡習，乃至於我不曾想像的……我早上講的那個邪惡的問題，整個文官體制與當今的民主政治體制之間又存在著非常大的鴻溝與落差，我們的社群網路媒體對於我們文官體制的凌遲與剝削也是不遑多讓。我親眼看到我的文官們，我也很心疼他們，我看到他們的辛苦、看到他們每天在應付這些網路上層出不窮的各種質疑與謾罵，我覺得這是當今文官體制的困境，我希望從我這個例子可以提醒大家看到這裡面的問題。對我來講，我也必須體認到如何在這裡面去處理、如何做得更好。"],["蘇委員清泉：加油啦！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：接續請涂權吉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}