{"error":false,"id":["157191"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157191,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157191","日期":"2024-11-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-23-10","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":10,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-20T13:06:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-20T13:12:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eab6ff23f9172252a75399d0c714afe65c3d632f63170caf1df9a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:06:17 - 13:12:55","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金－民航事業作業基金分預算。\n四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預算。\n【本日僅進行詢答】【11月18日、20日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.96284375,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.93596875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":22.22159375,"end":22.57596875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.44096875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.64846875,"end":49.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.727843750000005,"end":49.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":50.892218750000005,"end":58.24971875000001,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.24971875000001,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":59.009093750000005,"end":60.51096875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":71.10846875,"end":71.51346875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.37846875000001,"end":75.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":74.21346875,"end":80.00159375,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.04846875,"end":77.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.61784375,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":88.13534375,"end":94.96971875000001,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.58596875,"end":145.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.56096875,"end":149.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.13409375,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":151.36596875,"end":159.36471875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.72034375,"end":154.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.05284375000002,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":159.66846875000002,"end":166.94159375,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.75284375,"end":160.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.95471875,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.79846875,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.71034375000002,"end":190.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.51596875,"end":192.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.96284375000002,"end":197.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.00846875000002,"end":209.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.48346875000001,"end":213.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.65159375000002,"end":239.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":238.79534375000003,"end":240.80346875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":241.03971875000002,"end":245.61284375000002,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.12409375000001,"end":241.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.11096875,"end":250.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.28721875000002,"end":253.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.61159375000003,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.01221875000002,"end":259.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.99034375,"end":262.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.23034375000003,"end":265.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.47471875,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.54596875000004,"end":273.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.08096875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.07096875,"end":287.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.86784375,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.29784375,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.75721875,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.52659375,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.56409375000004,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.93471875,"end":319.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":332.38409375000003,"end":332.43471875,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":332.83971875000003,"end":332.85659375,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":338.15534375000004,"end":341.10846875000004,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.70784375,"end":343.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.13346875,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":343.36971875,"end":350.71034375000005,"speaker_score":0.905},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.82534375,"end":344.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.23784375,"end":350.760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陳部長"},{"start":13.956,"end":37.154,"text":"部長好委員好我們今天是討論那個危險天氣對於飛航的影響大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全但今天我想會排這個報告應該有一個原因一個起源是因為11月4號的時候當時已經有颱風所以有一些航空公司他可能重落地大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決讓我們的飛航更加安全"},{"start":37.854,"end":49.768,"text":"我當時看到部長是有對媒體震怒你是說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話什麼叫保守派遣部長"},{"start":51.133,"end":70.678,"text":"保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣的狀況大家不要太勉強去派遣那不然你知道那一天那一天被你罵的那個業者之外還有其他業者那天也都有飛嘛其他家包括長榮包括華航可能他們飛的班機還要更多啦"},{"start":71.218,"end":93.994,"text":"是所以所以我不知道我覺得講保守派講感覺是第一是比例上的問題啦確實那一天不是 這不是比例的問題啦數量的問題嘛因為如果說很危險的話大家數量都要控制嘛你的意思不是說我原本我的班機多所以我就按比例減少我們的調查是所有的航空公司國航的航空公司都在調查不是針對某一間航空公司"},{"start":94.634,"end":112.521,"text":"我只是想說你要講一個方案出來那要能夠落實啦保守派遣這四個字很難落實因為原本航空公司它能飛不能飛它有一定的準則嘛比如說它的能見度是要可以看到幾公尺然後它的風速多少機長才會決定要飛或不飛嘛大概會秉持這個原則"},{"start":114.022,"end":133.016,"text":"而且這個原則是各家不太一樣有的業者他比如說他如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候他可以直接飛走他可以直接飛走就不降落有的業者是說好像他要先試個一次兩次之後才能直接飛走每一家的做法也都不一樣所以你喊出一個保守派遣那到底保守派遣到底是什麼意思"},{"start":133.616,"end":149.025,"text":"是說我只要比我原本的規定保守就好還是說我們國家訂一個標準出來要比我們國家訂的標準保守這其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準啊所以我是不太知道說你講說保守派遣到底是什麼意思啊"},{"start":150.185,"end":173.431,"text":"到底做得到還是做不到就我的了解喔那一天中落地的我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天我不是在討論你要不要調查包含重飛包含這個轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高我現在不是在針對那個個案說要不要調查問題我在講說既然你排了這個專案報告你就要拿出具體能夠把這問題解決的方案出來"},{"start":173.831,"end":187.657,"text":"因為保守派遣四個字我覺得那個就是一個很空洞很抽象的講法就像當時那一天非常多飛機在飛有很多飛機在上面盤旋那為什麼它重落地主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風"},{"start":188.854,"end":213.058,"text":"那那個冊封不是一直有啊那就剛好降落的時候有冊封然後你就把他歸咎於說是因為他沒有保守派遣我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣我跟部長講他不可能的嘛為什麼因為第一個機師的薪水很高啊第二個你如果"},{"start":213.758,"end":240.349,"text":"交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛還有就是其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛他會有很多問題出來還有再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準這也是一個很重要的問題所以不是說罵業者你能沒有保守派遣問題就在業者而是說我們今天交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度那交通部怎麼把那個準則定的那天沒有不準的問題"},{"start":241.169,"end":259.08,"text":"而且我們每個航站他自己都有氣象的單位就是交通部也要第一個準則出來因為你說你只是講個保守派遣我覺得業者保不保守自由新政啊到底要多保守該怎麼保守然後這個是看他啊所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事啦"},{"start":260.029,"end":283.676,"text":"我想跟還是跟委員再說明一下保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測那剛剛委員所說的都對就是說每一個公司機型不同大小不同其實他的一個派遣的準則也不一樣那我們這一次的康瑞颱風跟前兩次來比的話那其實前兩次的重飛比較少這一次的重飛比較多那再來我們四家國籍裡面"},{"start":284.216,"end":311.584,"text":"向虎航道一點他就自己決定下午就沒有再飛了所以每一家的派遣確實是不同然後也因為機型不同那我們會說保守派遣就是說既然颱風那麼難預測那你航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握及時的資訊然後讓航機可以往後或者是往前盡量不要在那個颱風因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測所以為什麼要保守如果比例"},{"start":312.064,"end":332.081,"text":"我想你講的也都對啦但是很難操作啦你講他們不會不做啦但是實際上就不容易操作所以講包派錢這一句話就是都是一句廢話啦要就定出具體辦法出來第二個很簡單問一下因為之前我有關心我們那個太阪輕軌嘛那我們新北市已經把核心性研究再一次送到交通部去了啦"},{"start":332.401,"end":350.342,"text":"那那時候部長你有那時候剛來你有承諾我說你會立刻只要收到案子之後開專案會議就一次把他們對那那個專案會議開了嘛因為又過20天了因為那時候那時候有講到就是說我本來就會針對每一個縣市政府他所送來的案子我們會做審查那目前在部裡面正在審查"},{"start":351.38,"end":370.729,"text":"部長那時候我們講的是說因為這個案子已經拖很久拖一兩年了嘛然後而且每一次問題都是一次發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去另外發現一個問題拖回去那時候我跟你講的時候你也有認同說我們是不是一次吧開一個專案會議我有特別跟我們部內的單位有交代就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要求證請大家一次來討論對對對 那個討論會開了嘛"},{"start":373.01,"end":396.941,"text":"目前正在研議當中那大概什麼時候會有?您知道這個細節嗎?因為搞不好你不知道這個細節我不知道那是不是有相關單位的有來?沒有來?沒有來?那這樣子部長你回去幫我們關心一下好不好?就是這個案子已經送去了然後不要再像以前一樣就一直退就是有什麼問題一次然後那個賄賂還沒開的話可不可以早點開因為真的拖很久了我請他們加速審查好謝謝部長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:21.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:21.922000+08:00","text":"麻煩請交通部部長，謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:22.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:22.184000+08:00","text":"陳部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:30.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:31.196000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:31.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:31.917000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:32.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:54.134000+08:00","text":"我們今天討論危險天氣對於飛航的影響，大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全，我想今天會排這個報告應該有一個原因、一個起源，是因為11月4號當時因為有颱風，所以有一些航空公司可能有重落地的情形，大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決，讓我們的飛航更加安全。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:54.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:05.766000+08:00","text":"我當時看到部長有對媒體表示震怒，你說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣，我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話，什麼叫保守派遣？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:08.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:15.735000+08:00","text":"保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣狀況，大家不要太勉強去派遣，應該不派遣就不要派遣。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:15.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:21.776000+08:00","text":"部長知道那天除了被你罵的那個業者之外，還有其他業者當天也都有飛嗎？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:22.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:32.061000+08:00","text":"其他家包括長榮、包括華航，可能他們飛的班機還要更多，所以我覺得講保守派遣感覺是……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:32.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:35.263000+08:00","text":"第一是比例上的問題，確實那一天我們經調查……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:36.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:37.364000+08:00","text":"這不是比例的問題啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:38.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:38.785000+08:00","text":"數量的問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:39.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:46.210000+08:00","text":"你的意思是如果說很危險的話，那麼大家的數量都要控制，不是說我原本的班機多，所以我就按比例減少。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:46.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:50.974000+08:00","text":"我們的調查是對所有的航空公司─國航的航空公司都在調查，不是針對某一間航空公司。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:51.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:29.996000+08:00","text":"我只是想說你講一個方案出來要能夠落實，「保守派遣」這四個字很難落實，因為航空公司對能飛、不能飛原本有一定的準則，比如說能見度是要可以看到幾公尺、風速多少，機長才會決定要飛或不飛，大概會秉持這個原則，而且這個原則是各家不太一樣，有的業者如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候，他可以直接飛走，就不降落；有的業者是說要先試個一次、兩次之後才能直接飛走，每一家的作法也都不一樣，所以你喊出一個「保守派遣」，到底保守派遣是什麼意思？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:30.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:34.238000+08:00","text":"是說只要比我原本的規定保守就好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:34.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:38.661000+08:00","text":"還是說我們國家訂一個標準出來，要比我們國家訂的標準保守？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:39.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:48.165000+08:00","text":"其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準，所以我是不太知道你講的「保守派遣」到底是什麼意思，到底做得到還是做不到？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:48.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:49.906000+08:00","text":"就我的瞭解那一天……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:51.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:53.587000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這次康芮颱風我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:54.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:55.567000+08:00","text":"我不是在討論你要不要調查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:56.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:01.949000+08:00","text":"包含重飛、包含轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:02.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:22.376000+08:00","text":"我現在不是在針對那個個案要不要調查的問題，我講的是既然你排了這個專案報告，就要拿出具體能夠把問題解決的方案出來，因為「保守派遣」四個字我覺得就是一個很空洞、很抽象的講法，就像那一天非常多飛機在飛，有很多飛機在上面盤旋，那為什麼它會重落地？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:22.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:45.373000+08:00","text":"主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風，那個側風不是一直有，就剛好降落的時候有側風，然後你就把這個歸咎於是因為他沒有保守派遣，我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了，實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來，如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣，我跟部長講，那是不可能的嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:45.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:09:45.893000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:09:46.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:03.343000+08:00","text":"第一個，因為機師的薪水很高；第二個，如果交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話，乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛，會質疑其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛，他們會有很多問題；再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:03.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:16.488000+08:00","text":"這也是一個很重要問題，所以不是說罵業者你們沒有保守派遣，問題就歸在業者，而是我們交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度，交通部怎麼把那個準則定的……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:16.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:20.891000+08:00","text":"報告委員，那天沒有不準的問題，而且我們每個航站自己都有氣象的單位，會隨時提供訊息出來。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:21.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:29.896000+08:00","text":"交通部也要訂一個準則出來，你只是講「保守派遣」，我覺得業者保不保守是自由心證，到底要多保守？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:30.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:31.177000+08:00","text":"該怎麼保守？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:32.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:33.818000+08:00","text":"這個就看他啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:33.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:35.820000+08:00","text":"所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"何局長淑萍","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:37.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:10:58.515000+08:00","text":"我還是跟委員再說明一下，保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測，剛剛委員所說的都對，每一個公司機型不同、大小不同，其實派遣準則也不一樣，這一次的康芮颱風跟前兩次來比的話，其實前兩次的重飛比較少，這一次的重飛比較多。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"何局長淑萍","start":"2024-11-20T13:10:59.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:08.578000+08:00","text":"再來我們四家國籍航空公司裡面，像虎航到1點就自己決定下午不再飛了，所以每一家的派遣確實是不同，然後機型也不同。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"何局長淑萍","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:08.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:28.564000+08:00","text":"我們之所以會說保守派遣就是既然颱風那麼難預測，航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握即時的資訊，讓航機可以往後或者是往前，因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測的，這就是為什麼要保守，如果比例……","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:29.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:31.326000+08:00","text":"我想你講的也都對，但是很難操作啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"何局長淑萍","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:31.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:32.326000+08:00","text":"這就是要慢慢精進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:31.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:38.832000+08:00","text":"你講了他們不會不做，但實際上就是不容易操作，所以講「保守派遣」這句話就是一句廢話啦！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:39.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:40.994000+08:00","text":"要不就訂出具體辦法出來。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:40.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:55.188000+08:00","text":"第二個問題很簡單地問一下，之前我有關心我們那個泰板輕軌，新北市已經把可行性研究再一次送到交通部去了，那時候部長剛來，有承諾我說只要收到案子之後會立刻開專案會議。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:55.188000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:57.410000+08:00","text":"我們內部在審查當中。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:57.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:11:58.572000+08:00","text":"那個專案會議開了嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:11:58.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:01.876000+08:00","text":"因為已經又過了20天了，那時候有講到說……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:01.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:07.322000+08:00","text":"我們本來就會針對每個縣市政府送來的案子做審查，目前正在部裡面審查中。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:08.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:11.561000+08:00","text":"部長，那時候我們講的是因為這個案子已經拖了很久，拖一兩年了嘛！","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:12.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:21.566000+08:00","text":"然後每次都是一次發現一個問題退回去，另外發現一個問題又退回去，另外發現一個問題再退回去，我跟你講的時候你有認同說我們是不是開一個專案會議。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:21.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:27.549000+08:00","text":"我對部內的單位有交代，就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要糾正，大家一次性的來討論。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:27.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:27.589000+08:00","text":"一次解決，對，那個討論會開了嗎？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:30.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:31.471000+08:00","text":"目前正在研議當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:31.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:33.292000+08:00","text":"大概什麼時候會有結論？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:33.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:34.812000+08:00","text":"你知道這個細節嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:34.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:35.493000+08:00","text":"因為搞不好你不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:36.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:36.553000+08:00","text":"這個細節我不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:36.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:39.715000+08:00","text":"今天是不是有相關單位的來列席？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:39.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:40.435000+08:00","text":"沒有來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:40.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:41.435000+08:00","text":"今天列席的是我們的民航局。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:41.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:43.977000+08:00","text":"那請部長回去幫我們關心一下，好不好？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:44.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:52.741000+08:00","text":"就是這個案子已經送去了，不要再像以前一樣一直退件，有什麼問題一次解決，那個會如果還沒開的話，可不可以早點開，因為真的拖很久了。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:52.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.561000+08:00","text":"好，我請他們加速審查。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.941000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長世凱","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:53.941000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:54.441000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:12:55.869571+08:00","text":"謝謝葉委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:12:56.169571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:13:01.883857+08:00","text":"接下來有請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:13:02.183857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:13:05.326714+08:00","text":"下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1143,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時6分）麻煩請交通部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：陳部長。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。"],["陳部長世凱：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：我們今天討論危險天氣對於飛航的影響，大家都非常支持飛航應該要安全，我想今天會排這個報告應該有一個原因、一個起源，是因為11月4號當時因為有颱風，所以有一些航空公司可能有重落地的情形，大家開始檢討說這個問題要怎麼去解決，讓我們的飛航更加安全。我當時看到部長有對媒體表示震怒，你說是因為業者沒有落實保守派遣，我個人認為保守派遣是一句幹話，什麼叫保守派遣？"],["陳部長世凱：保守派遣就是航空公司必須要評估那一天的天氣狀況，大家不要太勉強去派遣，應該不派遣就不要派遣。"],["葉委員元之：部長知道那天除了被你罵的那個業者之外，還有其他業者當天也都有飛嗎？其他家包括長榮、包括華航，可能他們飛的班機還要更多，所以我覺得講保守派遣感覺是……"],["陳部長世凱：第一是比例上的問題，確實那一天我們經調查……"],["葉委員元之：這不是比例的問題啦！數量的問題嘛！你的意思是如果說很危險的話，那麼大家的數量都要控制，不是說我原本的班機多，所以我就按比例減少。"],["陳部長世凱：我們的調查是對所有的航空公司─國航的航空公司都在調查，不是針對某一間航空公司。"],["葉委員元之：我只是想說你講一個方案出來要能夠落實，「保守派遣」這四個字很難落實，因為航空公司對能飛、不能飛原本有一定的準則，比如說能見度是要可以看到幾公尺、風速多少，機長才會決定要飛或不飛，大概會秉持這個原則，而且這個原則是各家不太一樣，有的業者如果覺得不太能夠降落的時候，他可以直接飛走，就不降落；有的業者是說要先試個一次、兩次之後才能直接飛走，每一家的作法也都不一樣，所以你喊出一個「保守派遣」，到底保守派遣是什麼意思？是說只要比我原本的規定保守就好？還是說我們國家訂一個標準出來，要比我們國家訂的標準保守？其實這幾個字我覺得要講得很精準，所以我是不太知道你講的「保守派遣」到底是什麼意思，到底做得到還是做不到？就我的瞭解那一天……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這次康芮颱風我們會特別啟動調查是因為那一天……"],["葉委員元之：我不是在討論你要不要調查。"],["陳部長世凱：包含重飛、包含轉降的比例是比過去的其他颱風更高。"],["葉委員元之：我現在不是在針對那個個案要不要調查的問題，我講的是既然你排了這個專案報告，就要拿出具體能夠把問題解決的方案出來，因為「保守派遣」四個字我覺得就是一個很空洞、很抽象的講法，就像那一天非常多飛機在飛，有很多飛機在上面盤旋，那為什麼它會重落地？主要原因是因為它落地的時候有一個很大的側風，那個側風不是一直有，就剛好降落的時候有側風，然後你就把這個歸咎於是因為他沒有保守派遣，我覺得這樣的歸因太抽象了，實際上應該要定一個具體的辦法出來，如果你只是跟業者呼籲說你們要保守派遣，我跟部長講，那是不可能的嘛！為什麼？第一個，因為機師的薪水很高；第二個，如果交通部沒有一個立場態度說今天停飛的話，乘客會覺得說為什麼你不飛，會質疑其他家都有飛為什麼只有你不飛，他們會有很多問題；再加上為什麼氣象署給的報告都不準？這也是一個很重要問題，所以不是說罵業者你們沒有保守派遣，問題就歸在業者，而是我們交通部甚至氣象署也要提高自己的準確度，交通部怎麼把那個準則定的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，那天沒有不準的問題，而且我們每個航站自己都有氣象的單位，會隨時提供訊息出來。"],["葉委員元之：交通部也要訂一個準則出來，你只是講「保守派遣」，我覺得業者保不保守是自由心證，到底要多保守？該怎麼保守？這個就看他啊！所以交通部不是推給人家就沒事了。"],["何局長淑萍：我還是跟委員再說明一下，保守派遣就是因為颱風很難預測，剛剛委員所說的都對，每一個公司機型不同、大小不同，其實派遣準則也不一樣，這一次的康芮颱風跟前兩次來比的話，其實前兩次的重飛比較少，這一次的重飛比較多。再來我們四家國籍航空公司裡面，像虎航到1點就自己決定下午不再飛了，所以每一家的派遣確實是不同，然後機型也不同。我們之所以會說保守派遣就是既然颱風那麼難預測，航空公司在派遣的時候就要特別掌握即時的資訊，讓航機可以往後或者是往前，因為颱風的側風或者是各方面陣風都是很難預測的，這就是為什麼要保守，如果比例……"],["葉委員元之：我想你講的也都對，但是很難操作啦！"],["何局長淑萍：這就是要慢慢精進。"],["葉委員元之：你講了他們不會不做，但實際上就是不容易操作，所以講「保守派遣」這句話就是一句廢話啦！要不就訂出具體辦法出來。","第二個問題很簡單地問一下，之前我有關心我們那個泰板輕軌，新北市已經把可行性研究再一次送到交通部去了，那時候部長剛來，有承諾我說只要收到案子之後會立刻開專案會議。"],["陳部長世凱：我們內部在審查當中。"],["葉委員元之：那個專案會議開了嗎？因為已經又過了20天了，那時候有講到說……"],["陳部長世凱：我們本來就會針對每個縣市政府送來的案子做審查，目前正在部裡面審查中。"],["葉委員元之：部長，那時候我們講的是因為這個案子已經拖了很久，拖一兩年了嘛！然後每次都是一次發現一個問題退回去，另外發現一個問題又退回去，另外發現一個問題再退回去，我跟你講的時候你有認同說我們是不是開一個專案會議。"],["陳部長世凱：我對部內的單位有交代，就是說這一次如果還有什麼問題需要糾正，大家一次性的來討論。"],["葉委員元之：一次解決，對，那個討論會開了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：目前正在研議當中。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候會有結論？你知道這個細節嗎？因為搞不好你不知道。"],["陳部長世凱：這個細節我不知道。"],["葉委員元之：今天是不是有相關單位的來列席？沒有來？"],["陳部長世凱：今天列席的是我們的民航局。"],["葉委員元之：那請部長回去幫我們關心一下，好不好？就是這個案子已經送去了，不要再像以前一樣一直退件，有什麼問題一次解決，那個會如果還沒開的話，可不可以早點開，因為真的拖很久了。"],["陳部長世凱：好，我請他們加速審查。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。"],["陳部長世凱：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員。","接下來有請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":362,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-10","speakers":["魯明哲","林國成","黃健豪","李昆澤","徐富癸","陳素月","許智傑","林沛祥","游顥","何欣純","林俊憲","陳雪生","邱若華","王鴻薇","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","黃國昌","葉元之","蔡易餘","王美惠","蔡其昌"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長陳世凱、交通部民用航空局局長、桃園國際機場股份有限公司董事長、中華\n航空股份有限公司董事長及桃園航勤股份有限公司董事長就「如何強化遭遇顯著危害天氣現象之\n飛航安全與人力配置暨如何落實地面勤務之安全規範」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部民用航空局單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附\n屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交通作業基金─民航事業作業基金分預算；四、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於交通部主管桃園國際機場股份有限公司營業預\n算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11310302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}