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對不對臺灣人一人平均光是養錢專一個人負擔3.65萬"},{"start":272.862,"end":296.463,"text":"光是養前瞻,我們可以回顧一下前瞻到底做了什麼樣的事情。治水,常講治水預算,可是呢,淹水越來越多不是嗎?然後說,地方的建設,但是文字館不是越來越多嗎?我們去回顧花了8400億人民有感的在哪裡?結果一人花了3.65萬是在養前瞻。"},{"start":299.147,"end":321.498,"text":"所以我們今天是要再去看明年剩下700億然後繼續是舉債的支出嘛舉債來支應前瞻所以我們必須說啊編好編滿借好借滿完全欸完全都是用舉債的方式我們到底要留給我們子孫是什麼"},{"start":322.594,"end":335.868,"text":"再留子孫嗎?還是再留曾孫嗎?8400億這也就是我們長期以來認為特別預算長期編列腐爛而造成了我們的財政紀律之敗壞財政赤字"},{"start":338.391,"end":341.132,"text":"謝謝王宏偉委員接著請陳昌明委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:14+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:17.051571+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請主計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:17.051571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:20.103143+08:00","text":"陳主計長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:20.103143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:23.154714+08:00","text":"剛才是陳次長，對不對？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:23.154714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:26.206286+08:00","text":"經濟部是何次長，何晉滄次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:26.206286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:29.257857+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:29.257857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:32.309429+08:00","text":"何次長也上來一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:32.309429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:35.361000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:35.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:41.745000+08:00","text":"次長，剛才柯志恩委員所講的，興達海基64億，它叫風電嘛！","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:42.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:42.405000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:42.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:03:42.745000+08:00","text":"投資風電。是。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:03:43.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:04:34.187000+08:00","text":"昨天在追加預算的質詢裡面，我們特別來質詢包含院長跟部長在內，在上週今周刊有做一個綠電蟑螂的報導，也就是說，現在包含全臺的風電也好或光電也好，事實上很多的資金、很多的資源流入了綠電蟑螂，所以我們才要求院長一定要打擊綠能蟑螂，因為今天不管是追加預算也好，或者是前瞻預算也好，我們以為是要去發展綠能，我們以為是要去發展再生能源，但是我們是不是只是在餵這些綠能蟑螂？","quality":0.584},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:04:34.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:04:44.453000+08:00","text":"所以在這個部分，請經濟部在所有國營事業投資相關的綠能裡面，不要弊病叢生啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:04:46.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:09.796000+08:00","text":"興達海基現在看起來是大幅的虧損，但是我們還不知道裡面會不會藏著其他的貓膩，如同臺鹽一樣，臺鹽的前董事長都跑路了，到現在已經快一個月了，到底在海外還是在臺灣內部都不知道，前國營事業董事長耶！","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:09.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:10.517000+08:00","text":"太難看了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:11.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:17.863000+08:00","text":"這個要拜託經濟部，在執行國營事業轉投資相關綠能產業的時候，不要變成綠能蟑螂的幫兇，可不可以？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:17.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:18.863000+08:00","text":"報告委員，可以，我們針對打擊犯罪，在綠能相關的這些案場，行政院這邊也成立一個跨部會打擊犯罪的平臺，包括內政部、法務部、經濟部及農業部這4個部會，其實我們會注意到這個問題，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:18.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:19.863000+08:00","text":"一定要確切地打擊犯罪，否則這麼多的錢哦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:19.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:20.863000+08:00","text":"絕對不能夠浪費。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:20.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:21.863000+08:00","text":"來，我請主計長。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:21.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:05:57.665000+08:00","text":"主計長，前瞻計畫預算執行到現在，明年是最後一期，對不對？是。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:05:57.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:12.596000+08:00","text":"但是這幾年下來，前瞻製造了非常非常多的蚊子館，比如說前一陣子就出現在屏東西市場，它本來號稱所謂的五星級市場，當時也是風光開幕啊！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:13.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:27.644000+08:00","text":"但是最近發現7成的攤商抱怨沒有辦法賺錢，所以屏東西市場大概很難避免最後變成一個蚊子市場。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:27.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:35.868000+08:00","text":"包含之前屏東市的6個停車場，我也曾經說，包含審計部也有報告，也是一樣啊！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:36.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:44.632000+08:00","text":"也是蚊子館，還有鼓山魚市場，所以主計長，我最後要請教你，前瞻預算1到4期的資金來源是什麼？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:49.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:51.675000+08:00","text":"主要是舉債。舉債。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:51.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.535000+08:00","text":"好，明年700億的第5期預算，請問資金來源是什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.575000+08:00","text":"也是舉債。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.595000+08:00","text":"還是舉債。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:06:52.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:06:55.896000+08:00","text":"好，大家聽到了，8,400億的前瞻預算、特別預算，每一毛錢都是來自舉債！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:10.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:13.381000+08:00","text":"每一毛錢都是來自舉債！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:13.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:31.557000+08:00","text":"當我們在這邊常常高聲疾呼說財政紀律，結果8,400億都是舉債，我幫你算了一下，8,400億全部舉債，最後留下蚊子館，而且是債留子孫，舉債就是債留子孫啊！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:31.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:38.139000+08:00","text":"我們不可能在短時間內，這一、兩年內把8,400億還掉，對不對？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:38.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:49.124000+08:00","text":"臺灣人一人平均，光是養前瞻，一個人負擔3.65萬，光是養前瞻。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:49.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:07:59.333000+08:00","text":"我們可以回顧一下前瞻到底做了什麼樣的事情，治水，常常講治水預算，可是淹水越來越多，不是嗎？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:07:59.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:04.478000+08:00","text":"然後說地方的建設，但是蚊子館不是越來越多嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:04.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:09.302000+08:00","text":"我們去回顧，花了8,400億，人民有感的在哪裡？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:09.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:10.463000+08:00","text":"結果一人花了3.65萬在養前瞻。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:13.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:20.971000+08:00","text":"我們今天要去看明年剩下的700億，繼續是舉債的支出嘛！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:22.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:31.096000+08:00","text":"舉債來支應前瞻，所以我們必須說，編好編滿、借好借滿，完全欸！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:31.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:35.498000+08:00","text":"完全都是用舉債的方式，我們到底要留給子孫什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:36.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:38.356000+08:00","text":"債留子孫嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:38.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:41.760000+08:00","text":"還是債留曾孫嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員鴻薇","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:41.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:49.848000+08:00","text":"8,400億，這也就是我們長期以來認為特別預算長期編列浮濫，而造成了我們的財政紀律之敗壞，財政赤字一直在增加，所以主計長，第5期的前瞻預算最好你們能夠提出在整個財政規劃裡面，你們是符合真正的財政紀律，而不是讓我們今天這麼多人花那麼多錢，結果竟然是債留子孫，以上。","quality":0.336},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:52.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:53.351000+08:00","text":"謝謝王鴻薇委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T13:08:53.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T13:08:55.132000+08:00","text":"接著請陳超明委員。","quality":0.875}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2010,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（13時3分）謝謝主席，請主計長。"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才是陳次長，對不對？"],["主席：經濟部是何次長，何晉滄次長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：何次長也上來一下。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，剛才柯志恩委員所講的，興達海基64億，它叫風電嘛！對不對？投資風電。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：昨天在追加預算的質詢裡面，我們特別來質詢包含院長跟部長在內，在上週今周刊有做一個綠電蟑螂的報導，也就是說，現在包含全臺的風電也好或光電也好，事實上很多的資金、很多的資源流入了綠電蟑螂，所以我們才要求院長一定要打擊綠能蟑螂，因為今天不管是追加預算也好，或者是前瞻預算也好，我們以為是要去發展綠能，我們以為是要去發展再生能源，但是我們是不是只是在餵這些綠能蟑螂？所以在這個部分，請經濟部在所有國營事業投資相關的綠能裡面，不要弊病叢生啊！","興達海基現在看起來是大幅的虧損，但是我們還不知道裡面會不會藏著其他的貓膩，如同臺鹽一樣，臺鹽的前董事長都跑路了，到現在已經快一個月了，到底在海外還是在臺灣內部都不知道，前國營事業董事長耶！太難看了！這個要拜託經濟部，在執行國營事業轉投資相關綠能產業的時候，不要變成綠能蟑螂的幫兇，可不可以？"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，可以，我們針對打擊犯罪，在綠能相關的這些案場，行政院這邊也成立一個跨部會打擊犯罪的平臺，包括內政部、法務部、經濟部及農業部這4個部會，其實我們會注意到這個問題，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：一定要確切地打擊犯罪，否則這麼多的錢哦！絕對不能夠浪費。","來，我請主計長。主計長，前瞻計畫預算執行到現在，明年是最後一期，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是這幾年下來，前瞻製造了非常非常多的蚊子館，比如說前一陣子就出現在屏東西市場，它本來號稱所謂的五星級市場，當時也是風光開幕啊！但是最近發現7成的攤商抱怨沒有辦法賺錢，所以屏東西市場大概很難避免最後變成一個蚊子市場。包含之前屏東市的6個停車場，我也曾經說，包含審計部也有報告，也是一樣啊！也是蚊子館，還有鼓山魚市場，所以主計長，我最後要請教你，前瞻預算1到4期的資金來源是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：主要是舉債。"],["王委員鴻薇：舉債。好，明年700億的第5期預算，請問資金來源是什麼？"],["陳主計長淑姿：也是舉債。"],["王委員鴻薇：還是舉債。好，大家聽到了，8,400億的前瞻預算、特別預算，每一毛錢都是來自舉債！每一毛錢都是來自舉債！當我們在這邊常常高聲疾呼說財政紀律，結果8,400億都是舉債，我幫你算了一下，8,400億全部舉債，最後留下蚊子館，而且是債留子孫，舉債就是債留子孫啊！我們不可能在短時間內，這一、兩年內把8,400億還掉，對不對？臺灣人一人平均，光是養前瞻，一個人負擔3.65萬，光是養前瞻。","我們可以回顧一下前瞻到底做了什麼樣的事情，治水，常常講治水預算，可是淹水越來越多，不是嗎？然後說地方的建設，但是蚊子館不是越來越多嗎？我們去回顧，花了8,400億，人民有感的在哪裡？結果一人花了3.65萬在養前瞻。我們今天要去看明年剩下的700億，繼續是舉債的支出嘛！舉債來支應前瞻，所以我們必須說，編好編滿、借好借滿，完全欸！完全都是用舉債的方式，我們到底要留給子孫什麼？債留子孫嗎？還是債留曾孫嗎？8,400億，這也就是我們長期以來認為特別預算長期編列浮濫，而造成了我們的財政紀律之敗壞，財政赤字一直在增加，所以主計長，第5期的前瞻預算最好你們能夠提出在整個財政規劃裡面，你們是符合真正的財政紀律，而不是讓我們今天這麼多人花那麼多錢，結果竟然是債留子孫，以上。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。","接著請陳超明委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}