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13:18:33","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案(114年度)」（僅詢答）。\n【預算提案截止時間：11月27日（三）中午12時】\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.77346875,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.27096875,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.215343750000002,"end":10.392218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.687843750000003,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.47596875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.98971875,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.41971875,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.33034375,"end":28.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.11909375,"end":30.473468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.86159375,"end":32.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.10596875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.729093750000004,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.12534375,"end":46.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.196593750000005,"end":50.132843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.65596875,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.85784375,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.28784375,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.66721875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.27846875,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.93221875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.96096875,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.60596875,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.61846875,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.21221875,"end":83.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.15284375,"end":87.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.55721875,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.07159375,"end":91.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.33721875,"end":93.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.20596875000001,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.55596875,"end":98.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.79596875,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.14971875,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.27596875,"end":106.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.08596875,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.43971875000001,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.70471875000001,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.32034375,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.36221875000001,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.57284375,"end":124.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.59784375000001,"end":128.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.41159375,"end":135.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.95909375000002,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.16534375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.97409375,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.01534375,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.99784375000002,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.47784375,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.80221875,"end":169.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.87784375,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.02784375000002,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.33096875,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.37284375000002,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.56659375,"end":192.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.96284375000002,"end":192.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.78971875000002,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.92846875,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.67409375000003,"end":205.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.07909375000003,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.43159375000002,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.58971875,"end":235.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.48784375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.32284375,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.60534375,"end":240.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.92159375000003,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.86971875,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2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提一千零八三十一億欸 這樣 如果說提一百七百空七億欸 一萬不用提就不夠了我們現在大部分說前面來協讀啦 我要跟你沖水 結出六百八十一億 你也幫我一些不要用什麼來講話 不然我們改天我跟你們對質一下 來問一下看這樣有合理沒合理好不好 那有一些數據我們在會後再來核對一下這樣好不好 還要再講啦 不想要講完啦"},{"start":269.633,"end":281.823,"text":"那張表你再仔細看,可能看起來比較少,以後做大一點。我一樣的嘉峪縣、屏東縣及廟內縣,我用這個三個縣市做比較,這個叫做五級財政。廟內縣加鐵100公倍億,加議館鐵276億。"},{"start":293.514,"end":306.97,"text":"併同款貼兩百十六億,當然他貼到錢,還有同仇分配款本到錢,有夠啊,他現有,現利揮揮的。未來關不是你們的,就這樣求負。我把你們攤到這裡,你們也把我們手補走一個,鼓勵一個。"},{"start":314.524,"end":340.137,"text":"委員 這個部分是國發會的分配啦 國發會 我在政治委員會啦 哈 推來推去 您是很會推的 我所以好好會監督啦您不是在國發會 當然我當初是努力在開創地方優良的投資環境 我會解開到多久呢 但是我歲數已經回來了嘛"},{"start":341.175,"end":342.317,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":356.619,"end":357.039,"text":"有董事長喔?"},{"start":388.939,"end":396.868,"text":"主席長、財政部長,我苦苦抱怨,我做哈固的民意代表一寸一寸,人家又這樣,跟公平一點好不好?"},{"start":399.128,"end":419.283,"text":"內政部的董事長委員好苗栗縣的警察局在蓋是最終核定是內政部以前瞻第4期要補給苗栗補治14.多億對對嗎?已經補了怎麼說要補完?已經補過了你現在還補11億而已?不,管府已經同意了已經開始興建了啊!我們是忍耐,你就是這樣求福"},{"start":425.908,"end":441.895,"text":"你現在還有人這樣很強辯的,你叫他們補充給我做。那個蔣正石要來跟我講,一直來拜託,他們連怕部長,他們蔣事長怕被換掉,這樣的執行立法,我是很不敢玩的。"},{"start":444.064,"end":462.137,"text":"您怎麼這樣講話?您的公文是同意補資14.8億捏?是。啊你們怎麼只要補資苗栗縣11.4億?啊物價上漲,我們現在自己苗栗縣要去你經測局的總局?警察、縣警察是屬於中央的?"},{"start":463.863,"end":464.343,"text":"委員報告．議員報告．議員報告"},{"start":482.728,"end":497.64,"text":"您的奧委,您又覺得您對?你以為新來新有氣象喔?不是這樣做。是。警察局、縣警察局屬於中央的。地方出行人給你企業的。你實際上地方要企業來行的。要出來行。這樣更不合理。"},{"start":502.783,"end":530.19,"text":"您以前別的情願補助,您來了解一下,您把您保證好好做。不要以為他有靠山喔。沒有啦,我們現在要跟他約啦,沒有辦法啦,不然警察要蓋就一次蓋好了啦。您再去那裡,沒力,明後天我等您,到我辦公室來,為討文件對一次,好不好?好,謝謝。"},{"start":532.743,"end":535.899,"text":"好 謝謝陳昌明委員 接著我們請陳金規委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2033,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（13時9分）謝謝主席，首先有請主計處。"],["主席：陳主計長。"],["陳委員超明：還有財政部。"],["主席：陳署長。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：陳主計長，其實前瞻計畫到第4期已經差不多尾聲了，也就是要做檢討的時候，我今天怎麼會站在這裡呢？除了苗栗縣受到很多不公平的待遇，大家都覺得苗栗縣的財政困難，苗栗縣被你們財政部及主計處監控，我現在請你看一個表，我現在很簡單，就以5年度（108年到112年度）、以5級縣市苗栗縣、嘉義縣、屏東縣來做比較，這5年之內，苗栗縣的創稅給中央是1,387億，嘉義縣354億，屏東縣898億。108年到112年苗栗縣得到中央的補助，就是一般補助款跟統籌分配款，苗栗縣707億，嘉義縣841億，屏東縣1,231億，我苗栗縣替你們中央多賺680億，你們的嘉義縣要再補貼它487億，你們的屏東縣要再補貼它333億，這樣公平嗎？所以我一直講，有替你中央創稅的盈餘，你起碼也鼓勵我們一下，5級縣市每次向你們要錢，向你們討錢，好像乞丐在向你們討，實在是討得很不甘願，討得很不爽。","主計長，這個都有確實的數據，你放心，我十幾年都用這個表，你們從來都不改，顏色太重，我說有努力的孩子始終沒有糖可以吃，你們這個政府到底是怎麼看的？你們不要互相望，以前的主計長都很老奸，現在這個表給你看，讓你瞭解，因為第4期了，大概都已經確定了，所以我希望新任的主計長跟財政部長多多可憐苗栗縣，但是我們努力奮發向上，每年都創造稅收，以前借的錢今天這個成果已經展現了，所以我希望你以後多多關心苗栗縣，主計長，你的看法怎麼樣？你從南部上來，都不知道苗栗縣。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，114年度的部分，苗栗其實是比去年成長了11.7%。"],["陳委員超明：怎樣？"],["陳主計長淑姿：就是說一般性補助還有中央統籌分配稅整個加起來，它比去年成長11.7%，比一般的縣市還高，所以其實我們在……"],["陳委員超明：哪有比一般縣市還要高，我剛剛拿給你看的這個數據是112年，113年不可能那麼高，你不要唬我，我是今年還沒有看你們的錢是多少，還沒有結算出來。"],["陳主計長淑姿：以屏東來講，屏東才成長7%哦！我們是以……"],["陳委員超明：它現在拿夠了，它以前拿這麼多錢，多……"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們以114年度和113年度比較。"],["陳委員超明：它拿1,231億耶！苗栗縣才拿707億，它現在不用拿就足夠了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：我們現在大部分是儘量來協助。"],["陳委員超明：我幫你們創稅多出680億，你也分我一些，不要這麼來講話，不然改天我跟你對質一下，問看看這樣合不合理，好不好？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，委員，有一些數據我們在會後再來核對一下，這樣好不好？"],["陳委員超明：來到這裡，不太甘願啦！"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝、謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？你們要稍微體諒一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員超明：再來，那一張表你再仔細看，可能看起來比較小，以後做大一點。一樣是嘉義縣、屏東縣及苗栗縣，我用這3個縣市做比較，這個叫做5級財政，苗栗縣才拿108億，嘉義縣拿226億，屏東縣拿216億，當然它拿得比較多，還有統籌分配款分得比較多，它足夠了，它很油、很綠、肥肥的，苗栗縣不是你們的就這樣欺負，我幫你們賺那麼多錢，你也給我們稍微補助一下、鼓勵一下。"],["陳主計長淑姿：委員，這個部分是國發會在分配。"],["陳委員超明：國發會，我在經濟委員會啦！推來推去，你們實在很會推，所以我會好好監督。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["陳委員超明：你不是在國發會，當然我當初是努力在開路，創造地方優良的投資環境，我會花比較多錢，但是我稅收已經回來了嘛！"],["陳主計長淑姿：地方也是要提計畫啦！"],["陳委員超明：我們有提計畫，每次都被打掉，你看到苗栗縣顏色就不好啊！因為它比較藍，講到這個，有時候我要說出來，不然你們不會看。你看，綠的拿那麼多，藍的拿那麼少，我故意用顏色顯示出來給你看，你還沒有看出來，我是不想點得那麼明，因為你們剛來當主計長、當署長，我不想講得那麼明，這是讓你們瞭解你還看不出來，好不好？改進改進一下，不要這樣偏袒的心理。","內政部的代表有沒有來？"],["主席：有，董次長。"],["陳委員超明：主計長、財政部署長，我是苦口婆心，我當那麼久的民意代表，一清二楚，不要再這樣子啦！公平一點，好不好？","內政部的董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["陳委員超明：苗栗縣的警察局在蓋，最終核定是內政部以前瞻第4期要撥給苗栗，補助十四點多億，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，已經補了。"],["陳委員超明：哪有補完？"],["董次長建宏：已經補過了，市府已經……"],["陳委員超明：你們現在只有補11億而已。"],["董次長建宏：沒有，縣府已經同意了，已經開始興建了。"],["陳委員超明：啊！我們是忍耐，你們就是這樣欺負，你現在還是一樣很強辯欸！你叫你們部長好好地做！警政署來跟我講，一直來拜託，他們很怕部長，警政署長怕被換掉，對這樣的執行率我是非常不甘願。你不要這麼講話，你的公文是同意補助14.8億欸！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["陳委員超明：你們怎麼只有補助苗栗縣11.4億？物價上漲，現在苗栗縣要蓋你警察局的總局，縣警察局屬於中央的，你跟你們部長再說一下，大家一樣都當過立委。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，總共的經費是14億，其中中央補助十一億多，苗栗縣政府同意2億多的自籌，這是……"],["陳委員超明：你們以前一紙公文下來，全額補助14.8億。"],["董次長建宏：這是苗栗縣政府同意的，公文已經給我們了。"],["陳委員超明：我拿那個公文給你看！你硬拗的，還覺得你們對，你以為新來有新氣象哦？不是這樣做。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["陳委員超明：縣警察局屬於中央的，地方出錢替你們蓋耶！你14億，地方要出6億，這樣合理嗎？你以前別的怎樣補助，你去瞭解一下，你跟你們部長說，要好好地做。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，總共是14億……"],["陳委員超明：不要以為他有靠山哦！"],["董次長建宏：這裡面中央是11億，地方是二億多。"],["陳委員超明：沒有啦！我們現在要6億，沒有辦法啦！不然警察局要蓋就一次蓋好啦！你們再去確認，不然明後天我等你，到我辦公室來，從頭把文件對一次，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。","接著請陳菁徽委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}