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事人受到員工丟紙箱恐嚇並咆哮在這個10月7號的時候單位主管確認有此事"},{"start":219.983,"end":238.719,"text":"那一直都沒有處理10月24號的時候這個陳慶仁把這個投訴信函寄到主管的信箱24號寄到之後30號應該都沒有收到這回應從事發到30號已經過三週了都沒有收到回應所以家屬在致電在網上呈報就如同我們的指引一樣往往上向機關首長提出申訴"},{"start":239.56,"end":268.546,"text":"那結果才發現說這個信箱從來都沒有被打開過啊所以才發現說原來這幾天的申訴都沒有意義那終於10月30號打電話去說我有這個陳情案之後11月1號單位主管才開始處理那當然最後處理說也是把那個人調職調到隔壁單位而已所以他們還是遇到我待會一樣會把這個相關案件提供給相關單位給職業單位但是今天為什麼先請整治行政總處跟保訓處還有考試院上來我要問的是說像這種事情"},{"start":269.414,"end":283.986,"text":"他投訴無門了那這怎麼辦如果今天我是一個基層公務人員我投訴我的主管對我實施霸凌結果主管不處理我往上呈報他沒有打那通電話去講說你有沒有收到我的信"},{"start":285.238,"end":312.731,"text":"他從頭到尾都沒有開那個信箱那我想問一下這到底要怎麼處理啊你們要怎麼處理你們要怎麼保障公務員因為你們在你們的報告裡面也寫到說有很多的法令你們可以提供申訴管道你們是這個準司法機關等等的可以來提供申訴的救濟那到底在實務上就算不管是以今天我今天收到的澄清案例來講也好還是今天勞動部發分數長發生的事情也好還是之前海科管的事情也好那表示整個公務人員的申訴霸凌機制是無效的吧"},{"start":314.437,"end":318.075,"text":"三位你要怎麼做成這個怎麼解決這樣的問題"},{"start":319.671,"end":345.938,"text":"因為各機關其實他都會有他的一個申訴管道如果說這個同仁他在服務機關有這樣的情形那他可以跟服務機關來提出申訴我知道提出啦沒有用啊上級機關其實機關主管首長或者上級機關其實他對於這些相關的事項也可以透過指揮監督的方式來就事實的部分來去做瞭解進一步處理"},{"start":348.358,"end":372.484,"text":"我具體再問一次好了就以這個我手上收到的陳情案例為例就好今天他找到主管沒有用的時候就像之前找勞動部他們這個投訴沒有用之後那他到底怎麼辦有人事行政總處有這個流程那保訓處也說自己是這個可以處理那考試院也說可以處理那到底一個基層公務人遇到"},{"start":378.905,"end":401.705,"text":"我想過去性騷擾防治是走了這麼多年現在才有一個製作化那這個霸凌的問題現在變成只是指導原則而已嘛那我今天請大家來你們都來到這邊寫了這麼多報告那我想問啊如果今天以這個犧牲公務人員今天遇到這個事情就好了那他到底要找誰他主管都不處理他怎麼辦呢找明代嗎每次都只能找明代嗎明代那麼多人可以找"},{"start":403.138,"end":417.623,"text":"跟委員報告就是說跟機關提出申訴之後機關依照規定要在30天內要要給他做一個一個處理那如果疫情沒有的話他可以直接跟保訓會提出再申訴是這樣子"},{"start":419.292,"end":447.17,"text":"好,今天時間有限啦,但是我要希望說,我們的人事行政總處也好,考試院也好,或是公務人員這個保障培訓委員會也好,到底這個主管機關如果霸凌事件產生之後,你們的最終救濟管道,除了單位主管,單位主管很顯然在這個我剛剛提出的幾個事件來講,它是失效的,那到底要誰來處理?這是誰能夠提出報告出來?是人事行政總處呢?還是考試院?還是你們各自為政?"},{"start":451.141,"end":466.482,"text":"跟委員報告就是說在公務人員保障法其實還有安慰辦法他都有相關的規定那另外就是說如果是屬於人民懲刑案件的話在人民懲刑案件的處理上面他在相關規定不是人民懲刑就是公務員懲刑"},{"start":468.733,"end":470.995,"text":"這邊講人民其實也包括公務人員因為他跟機關提出陳情這個機關依規定你就是要去做處理"},{"start":488.343,"end":512.909,"text":"那如果對於機關的處理或者回復有不符的話那當然他這個如果是屬於管理措施剛剛陳儒考試院代表所提的如果他對這個管理措施他認為機關處理不符的話他可以有保障法的救濟在保訓會那邊也有相關的救濟規定所以最後的救濟是在保訓會是不是公務人員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1637,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（14時8分）謝謝主席，主席，我們先請教育部人事處處長、行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處處長、考試院保訓會綜規處處長、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會保障處處長。在本席質詢一開始為什麼先找你們上台，因為在勞動部霸凌事件成為新聞事件之前，媒體有報導過教育部所屬的海科館館長也是霸凌員工，也有錄音檔，他確實也講自己是求好心切，跟今天勞動部這個案子一樣，大家都是求好心切啊！不過求好心切一樣是對員工霸凌，這件事情之前立法院也有質詢過，那我想問一下，以這個案子為例，現在你們處理的進度到哪裡？"],["王處長崇斌：跟委員報告，從媒體在10月23日揭露以後，我們在隔天就立刻請館方就相關的媒體面先跟我們說明，說明了之後，我們在10月30日就有到海科館去實地訪視，就媒體所揭露的相關事項做進一步的瞭解。"],["黃委員健豪：現在進度到哪裡了？"],["王處長崇斌：目前我們相關的瞭解情形還在整理中，我們會再召開相關的會議，邀請相關的委員還有專家學者來共同討論。"],["黃委員健豪：我想這就是大家要看到教育部……今天我不是針對處長，其實你也不是真的主管，你只能代表來發言，但是像勞動部這個事情發生之後，就是因為這幾天大家非常關注，所以這個分署長現在請假被調職了，但是你們海科館館長也確實有這個事件，只是因為沒有被炒大，所以你們到現在還在調查期間，我覺得這件事情對於公務人員保障的確有很大很大的缺漏啦！","接下來我請問人事行政總處，你們的確有一個流程處理表，那裡面每一件事情的救濟程序，發生事件到調查到處理，基本上都是要找自己的主管來處理嘛，照這樣如果是各機關首長涉案就要向上級機關提出申訴，這個是你們的處理流程，但這個只是指導，沒有什麼強制約束力，因為裡面提到如果當事人就口頭告知而沒有提出申訴，建議機關要幫當事人提起申訴，也是建議而已，是不是這樣子？"],["陳處長月春：原則上，這個我們也都有要求各機關，雖然這只是指導的性質，但我們也有要求各機關要落實來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：那就回到剛剛其他委員提到的，這個東西是不是應該把它法制化，因為現在變成只是指引而已啊！剛剛提到因為今天勞動部是爐主，所以這個分署長被調職了，那教育部就沒事啊，這個館長持續在當他的館長，這個制度化怎麼產生呢？沒有辦法處理耶！因為今天時間比較少，我手上也有一個陳情案，一個地方基層單位，10月6日當事人受到員工丟紙箱恐嚇並咆哮，10月7日單位主管確認有此事，但一直都沒有處理，10月24日陳情人把投訴信函寄到主管的信箱，24日寄出之後，到30日都沒有收到回應，從事發到30日已經過3週都沒有收到回應，所以家屬再致電往上呈報，就如同你們的指引一樣，往上向機關首長提出申訴，結果才發現這個信箱從來都沒有被打開過，也才發現原來這幾天的申訴都沒有意義。終於在10月30日打電話去說明有這個陳情案之後，11月1日單位主管才開始處理，當然最後處理方式也是把那個人調職，調到隔壁單位而已，他們還是會遇到。我待會一樣會把這個相關案件提供給相關單位，我之所以先請行政人事總處跟保訓處還有考試院上來，我要問的是像這種事情人員投訴無門要怎麼辦？如果今天我是一個基層公務人員，我投訴我的主管對我實施霸凌，結果主管不處理，我往上呈報，如果他沒有打那通電話去問有沒有收到信，其實那個信箱從頭到尾都沒有被打開。我想問一下這到底要怎麼處理？你們要怎麼處理？你們要怎麼保障公務員？因為你們在報告裡面也寫到有很多的法令，你們可以提供申訴管道，你們是準司法機關等等，可以提供申訴的救濟，到底在實務上，不管是今天我收到陳情案來講也好，還是勞動部發生分署長的事情也好，還是之前海科館的事情也好，表示整個公務人員的申訴霸凌機制是無效的吧！請教三位要怎麼解決這樣的問題？"],["陳處長月春：因為各機關都會有申訴管道，如果同仁在服務機關有這樣的情形，他可以跟服務機關提出申訴。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，提出來沒有用啊！"],["陳處長月春：其實機關主管首長或者上級機關對於這些相關事項，也可以透過指揮監督的方式，就事實的部分瞭解，進一步處理。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我具體再問一次好了。就以我手上收到的這個陳情案例為例就好，今天他找到主管申訴沒有用的時候，就像之前找勞動部投訴沒有用之後，他到底怎麼辦？有人事行政總處，有這個流程，保訓會說自己可以處理，考試院也說可以處理，到底基層公務人員遇到這樣的事情要怎麼辦？過去性騷擾防治是走了這麼多年，現在才有制度化，這個霸凌的問題現在變成只是指導原則而已嘛，今天你們都來到這邊，寫了這麼多報告，我想問以這個基層公務人員所遇到的事情就好了，他到底要找誰？他主管都不處理，他怎麼辦呢？找民代嗎？每次都只能找民代嗎？民代有那麼多人可以找？"],["黃處長振榮：跟委員報告，跟機關提出申訴之後，機關依照規定要在30天內處理，如果沒有可以直接跟保訓會再申訴。"],["黃委員健豪：今天時間有限，但是我希望人事行政總處也好，考試院也好，或是公務人員保障暨培訓委員會也好，霸凌事件產生之後，到底這個主管機關……你們的最終救濟管道除了單位主管──但是單位主管很顯然在我剛才提出的幾個事件來講是失效的，到底要誰來處理？誰能夠提報告出來？是行政院人事行政總處還是考試院？還是你們各自為政？"],["陳處長月春：跟委員報告，在公務人員保障法和安衛辦法其實都有相關的規定，另外如果是屬於人民陳情案件的話，在人民陳情案件的處理上，在相關規定……"],["黃委員健豪：不是人民陳情，就是公務員陳情，在行政系統裡面，今天最麻煩就是他是在行政系統裡面，如果是人民陳情當然無所謂嘛，人民可能不會怕你啊，但問題是他在這科層體制裡面，在文官系統裡面。"],["陳處長月春：這邊講人民其實也包括公務人員，因為他跟機關提出陳情，這個機關依規定就是要去處理，如果對於機關的處理或者回復有不服的話，當然如果是屬於管理措施，誠如剛剛考試院代表所提的，如果他對這個管理措施、對機關處理不服的話，他可以有保障法的救濟，在保訓會那邊也有相關的救濟規定。"],["黃委員健豪：所以公務人員最後的救濟是在保訓會是不是？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接續請徐巧芯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}