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我們有請何部長"},{"start":19.407,"end":44.567,"text":"部長我今天看了一整天的質詢我覺得非常的傻眼喔你們到現在還在說這件事情是平庸的邪惡但是你們今天呢說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做偶心利邪對方只是利益良善這等同於你們到現在還在包屁還在輕描淡寫甚至說這不算情節最重大我要告訴你你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡"},{"start":45.848,"end":63.506,"text":"再來逼死人的是分署長開記者會的時候道歉的是你跟次長是怎樣分署長是比你們還要大尾嗎今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情他還是請假要躲到22號那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候怎麼就這麼囂張部長你是不是說謝以榮今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好"},{"start":71.84,"end":90.338,"text":"我沒有這個意思但你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以他沒有來我不是這個意思那你是什麼意思他應該要出來可是我不知道他為什麼沒有出來他應該要出來但你不知道為什麼要出來所以你現在你很氣你也很氣嗎他不應該啦他不應該所以你有沒有叫他出來"},{"start":94.315,"end":109.963,"text":"委員你是指哪一天我說現在啊就這兩天啊記者會還有今天啊這兩天啊事情爆發之後你們開了記者會我沒有看過記者會是當事逼死人的人沒有出來你一個部長一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉為什麼他人不在為什麼今天他人也不在為什麼要拖到22號才要出來你有沒有叫他出來嘛"},{"start":123.643,"end":133.108,"text":"委員因為因為什麼我想因為調查報告裡面我們的心理諮商室的專家是覺得他的精神狀態是有點"},{"start":135.327,"end":151.463,"text":"因為他精神狀態不宜那我問你喔你今天質詢你就哭那被那些霸凌這麼久的、輕生的他心情好嗎?他能哭嗎?這個謝宜蓉現在說精神不好那那些被霸凌致死的人他們心情好嗎?他們能哭嗎?"},{"start":153.991,"end":180.728,"text":"一條生命就這樣走了他能哭嗎他哭過多少次了所以他才選擇這樣的方式然後你今天告訴我因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著掉職然後你們給我一個八頁的報告就這樣所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討就是麻木不仁我寫你們寫的八頁報告你知道有多矛盾嗎我一個一個念給你聽你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因"},{"start":181.568,"end":207.511,"text":"然後呢你們再繼續講你們說呢這個所謂的說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助那他為了避免連累同仁所以沒有提出加班申請那他的主管呢他的主管知不知道他有加班如果主管知道這個人每天都加班很辛苦了為什麼沒有幫他主動說我要幫他寫加班費"},{"start":208.976,"end":217.486,"text":"沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎這是一個主管該做的事嗎我自己的助理他沒有跟我申請加班我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊部長是什麼"},{"start":224.628,"end":253.206,"text":"是什麼嗎?他當然就是完全做錯的事情而且非常不應該非常不應該你們永遠是這句話但是你們要說這不算是霸凌委員他應該要受到應得的懲罰是那他算不算霸凌嗎?你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌我就請問我們的報告有說他是霸凌他是霸凌所以他霸凌所以這個員工你們也認定他是因為受到這個分署長霸凌而致死這是主要的原因是嗎?"},{"start":255.441,"end":279.413,"text":"委員我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌我剛剛問的問題是這個人他是因為長時間的受到了這名分署長的霸凌而選擇親身的你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明沒有歸因我現在問你是不是如此是不是我剛剛說的那樣的陳述是你們調查報告我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響只是影響再來我們要再講一下"},{"start":283.655,"end":312.44,"text":"你們這裡在後面第三頁你寫說問卷回饋當中無從得知關心人甲是否向主管反例人應不足問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他代表很多人都知道這件事啊然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形這不是完全就是矛盾嗎你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊"},{"start":313.9,"end":327.565,"text":"還要求同仁不要外傳此事我要講一下給大家聽一下那個錄音這件事情事發之後如果他有一絲一毫的覺得自己應該要檢討我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒"},{"start":329.375,"end":344.915,"text":"這件事情爆發出來之後他找了他找了他其他的同仁來他說什麼我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌然後他說什麼你知道他說什麼嗎他問大家做得到嗎部長如果我今天這樣問你"},{"start":349.546,"end":360.671,"text":"這個人我問你部長你要下台大家做得到嗎這個人他要停職大家做得到嗎然後你要回答什麼他說要大家回答做得到"},{"start":361.618,"end":388.643,"text":"然後呢 坐在這第一次太小聲了大家做得到嗎做得到這是什麼直銷大會啊事情已經發生了人已經死了這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會大家做得到嗎做得到選舉是不是啊這不是說話大聲而已你們把它裡面寫成說話大聲抱歉這不是說話大聲而已事情發生以後他還把所有人找過來說你們不准對外說這是職場霸凌"},{"start":389.663,"end":404.108,"text":"這什麼樣的人啊你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊最後我要講什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動可不可以最後說明一下你們所調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動是怎麼跑的"},{"start":405.848,"end":408.369,"text":"我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為怎麼樣的行為你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為"},{"start":433.493,"end":451.413,"text":"跟委員報告我們在訪談那個有跟跟他們的同仁有做過訪談然後也有匿名性那這個訪談是講到這個跑步是在那個上班時間他是為了要維護同仁的健康所以他有這樣平常這樣"},{"start":453.336,"end":464.516,"text":"來我們現在一起維護大家健康現在大家一起去跑步好不好這裡這麼多委員我們要我們維護大家的健康嘛來我們現在委員會不要開了我們現在一起去跑步所以怎麼樣所以"},{"start":465.856,"end":487.138,"text":"所以他的行為已經脫離已經不正常啦脫離現實啦脫離現實好我最後再問一下部長我覺得你剛剛呢你還沒有完全了解狀況你一直告訴我們這報告呕心瀝血我只是提出一個所謂的上班時間以內工作跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況你要別人幫你打"},{"start":488.76,"end":515.584,"text":"這個本來就是本來就是怎麼樣是人事處他們去做反調那你不用了解嗎你是部長發生了這麼大一件事情我們今天從早上質詢到現在我問你他到底犯錯犯在哪裡具體而言你要讓別人幫你回答你自己回答不出來沒有責任嗎這已經不是說那是前朝的事情了這是現在你們調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕的問題最後我問一個問題北分署的離退人數我們看一下PowerPoint"},{"start":516.927,"end":518.889,"text":"我請署長打好嗎?可以"},{"start":541.022,"end":543.827,"text":"根文報告112年北溫署離隊36人113年北溫署離隊45人好111年了"},{"start":555.418,"end":556.239,"text":"111年18人你看111年的時候只離18人112年開始30幾個113年變成40幾個為什麼會直線往上飆升"},{"start":574.096,"end":574.857,"text":"我會負我該負的責任"},{"start":602.304,"end":603.205,"text":"我會負符合社會期待的責任。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1657,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（14時17分）謝謝主席，請何部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，我今天看了一整天的質詢，我覺得非常的傻眼，你們到現在還在說這件事情是「平庸之惡」，但是你們今天說這份所謂的檢討報告叫做「嘔心瀝血」，對方只是立意良善，就等同於你們到現在還在包庇，還在輕描淡寫，甚至說這不算情節最重大。我要告訴你，你們這樣子才叫做平庸的邪惡！再來，逼死人的是分署長，開記者會的時候道歉的是你、是次長，是怎樣？分署長比你們還要大尾嗎？今天專案報告我們談霸凌的事情，他還是請假要躲到22日，那平常他跟員工大小聲的時候，怎麼就這麼囂張？部長，你是不是說謝宜容今天沒有出來是因為他心情不好？"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有這個意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：你是不是說他是因為心情不好所以沒有來？"],["何部長佩珊：我不是這個意思。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你是什麼意思？"],["何部長佩珊：他應該要出來，可是我不知道他為什麼沒有來。"],["徐委員巧芯：他應該要出來，但你不知道他為什麼沒有來，所以你現在很氣？你也很氣嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：他不應該啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：他不應該，所以你有沒有叫他出來？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，你是指哪一天？"],["徐委員巧芯：我說現在啊，就這兩天啊，記者會還有今天啊！這兩天啊，事情爆發之後你們開了記者會，我沒有看過記者會是逼死人的當事人沒有出來，你一個部長、一個次長在那邊鞠躬道歉。為什麼當時他人不在？為什麼今天他人也不在？為什麼要拖到22日才要出來？你沒有叫他出來嗎？如果你一直不回答的話，主席，我們這個時間……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我想因為調查報告裡面，我們的心理諮商學者專家覺得他的精神狀態有點不宜。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為他精神狀態不宜？我問你哦，你今天來質詢你就哭，那些被霸凌這麼久、輕生的當事者，他的心情好嗎？他能哭嗎？現在謝宜容說精神不好，那那些被霸凌致死的人，他們心情好嗎？他們能哭嗎？一條生命就這樣走了，他能哭嗎？他哭過多少次了他才選擇這樣的方式，然後你今天告訴我，因為覺得評估他精神上可能不是很好，就不知道躲到牛年馬月就等著調職，然後你們給我一個8頁的報告就這樣，所以你們這些人根本沒有檢討，就是麻木不仁。你們寫的8頁報告，你知道有多矛盾嗎？我一個一個唸給你聽。你們一開始就先說霸凌不是主因，然後你們再繼續講，你們說明明他就講過數位小組同仁曾經主動說要協助，他為了避免連累同仁，所以沒有提出加班申請。那他的主管呢？他的主管知不知道他有加班？如果主管知道這個人每天都加班，很辛苦了，為什麼沒有主動的要幫他寫加班費？沒有申請你們就當沒有這回事了嗎？這是一個主管該做的事嗎？我自己的助理沒有跟我申請加班，我看到他在加班還是會給他加班費啊！部長？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：是什麼？是什麼嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：他當然就是完全做錯事情，而且非常不應該。"],["徐委員巧芯：非常不應該，你們永遠是這句話，但是你又說這不算是霸凌。"],["何部長佩珊：委員，他應該要受到應得的懲罰。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，那他算不算霸凌？你們報告裡面就說這不是算霸凌，我就請問……"],["何部長佩珊：我們的報告有說他是霸凌，他是霸凌，他是啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：他霸凌，所以這一個員工，你們也認定他是因為受到分署長霸凌而致死，這是主要的原因是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我們的報告有承認他就是霸凌。"],["徐委員巧芯：我剛剛問的問題是，這個人是因為長時間受到這名分署長的霸凌而選擇輕生的，你們報告裡面並沒有做這樣子的解釋跟說明，沒有歸因，我現在問你是不是如此？是不是我剛剛說的那樣陳述，是你們調查報告……"],["何部長佩珊：我想一定有受到他霸凌的影響啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：只是影響？再來我們要再講一下，在後面第3頁寫問卷回饋當中無從得知關係人甲是否向主管反映人力不足，問題是前面資訊小組的其他人就說願意協助他，代表很多人都知道這件事，然後你們說雖有工作時程要求要加重其壓力，但又無法證明長官有過度要求之情形。這不是完全矛盾嗎？你們的報告本身就是矛盾啊！還要求同仁不要外傳此事。我要講一下，給大家聽一下錄音，這件事情事發之後，如果他有一絲一毫覺得自己應該要檢討，我覺得今天大家不會這麼憤怒，這件事情爆發出來之後，他找了其他的同仁，他還說什麼？他說我不允許大家在外面給我說嘴什麼職場霸凌，然後他說什麼？你知道他說什麼嗎？他問大家做得到嗎？部長，如果我今天這樣問你，我問你，部長你要下台，大家做得到嗎？這個人他要停職，大家做得到嗎？然後你要回答什麼？他說要大家回答做得到。然後說得太小聲了，他又問大家做得到嗎？大家答做得到！這是什麼直銷大會啊？事情已經發生了，人已經死了，這個分署長還在那邊給我開直銷大會，問大家做得到嗎？要大家回答做得到！選舉是不是啊？這不是說話大聲而已，你們裡面把他寫成說話大聲，抱歉！這不是說話大聲而已，事情發生以後，他還把所有人找過來，要他們不准對外說這是職場霸凌！這是什麼樣的人啊？你們這是一個什麼樣的部會啊？","最後我要問的是，什麼如要求上班時間內以外的跑步活動，可不可以最後說明一下你們調查所謂的跑步活動是什麼跑步活動？是怎麼跑的？"],["何部長佩珊：我不清楚。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不清楚？那你告訴我們這是一個嘔心瀝血的調查報告，你現在跟我說不清楚！"],["何部長佩珊：不是的，委員請聽我解釋，他做的事情都是錯的……"],["徐委員巧芯：錯的？那錯在哪裡？"],["何部長佩珊：是霸凌的行為……"],["徐委員巧芯：你是部長，他錯在哪裡，你難道不用知道嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然他所謂跑步的行為也已經離譜，而且是非常離譜……"],["徐委員巧芯：我問的是他跑步的行為是怎麼樣的行為？你說給我聽是什麼樣的跑步行為。"],["姜處長碧琳：跟委員報告，我們有跟他們的同仁做過訪談，然後也有匿名信，在訪談中講到這個跑步是在上班時間，他為了要維護同仁的健康，所以有這樣……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們現在一起維護大家的健康，大家一起去跑步，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：這裡有這麼多委員，為了維護大家的健康，現在委員會不要開了，我們一起去跑步，覺得怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：所以他的行為已經不正常，脫離現實。"],["徐委員巧芯：脫離現實！我最後再問一下，我覺得部長還沒有完全了解狀況，你一直告訴我們這個報告嘔心瀝血，我只是提出所謂的上班時間內的跑步活動是什麼樣的狀況，結果你要別人幫你答！"],["何部長佩珊：這個本來就是……"],["徐委員巧芯：本來就是怎麼樣？"],["何部長佩珊：是人事處他們去做訪調……"],["徐委員巧芯：你是部長，發生這麼大的事情，你就不用了解嗎？我們今天從早上質詢到現在，我問你他到底犯錯錯在哪裡，請你具體而言，你要別人幫你回答，自己回答不出來，沒有責任嗎？這不是前朝的事情，這是現在的事情，你們的調查報告就是寫得非常糟糕！","最後一個問題，我們看一下PowerPoint，北分署的離退人數81人，請問112年、113年分別離退多少人？我知道112年跟113年共離退81人，分別離退多少人？111年、110年、109年分別離退多少人？"],["何部長佩珊：我請署長回答好嗎？"],["徐委員巧芯：可以。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，112年北分署離退36人，113年北分署離退45人。"],["徐委員巧芯：111年呢？"],["蔡署長孟良：111年18人。"],["徐委員巧芯：你看111年的時候只離職18人，112年開始三十幾個，113年變成四十幾個，為什麼會直線往上飆升，這不是一兩天的事情，是很多人不斷地在離職。所以110年到112年，從18個人變36個人的時候，你們就應該要注意到這件事情了，不是等人死了，才說：哎呀！不好意思，趕快做一個調查報告。我最後問部長，你會因為這件事情下臺嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我會負我該負的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：你認為你該負的責任是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我想我會負我該負的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：我就問你覺得你應該要負什麼樣的責任？"],["何部長佩珊：我會負符合社會期待的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，知道了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，謝謝部長。接續請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}