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tart":296.479,"end":317.85,"text":"我只要跟你講喔謝毅龍這個人有問題我相信經過大家的討論都不用再講了但大家現在要看的是勞動部的態度勞動部我第一時間是想息事寧人喔要怎麼處分考機會決定我不能講或者是說這是噁心力血報告或者是目的良善去講這些讓大家覺得你在包庇他的話大家會對勞動部失望啊"},{"start":319.05,"end":336.961,"text":"你知道網友現在已經把這個事件去跟洪仲秋事件做連結為什麼第一個都是跟霸凌有關第二個都是官僚主義在包庇這是大家現在對勞動部的感覺啦委員我做調查報告就是希望不包庇不包庇就做出來這樣報告大家都不滿意還有再來請教一下"},{"start":341.769,"end":364.106,"text":"如果你要重新調查會調查的話你還會找許傳聖、黃琳娜、吳雅惠這三個人來調查嗎?黃琳娜跟吳雅惠都不是調查小組成員那他們三個是?只有許傳聖是召集人那召集人然後那另外兩位勒?那另外兩位他們在調查的過程當中扮演的角色是什麼?他沒有角色完全沒角色?是啊"},{"start":365.11,"end":366.09,"text":"賴總統說民進黨一直是跟勞工站在一起的政黨賴總統講的"},{"start":394.936,"end":401.841,"text":"發生了這樣的一個不幸勞工事件還在勞動部發生請問一下賴總統要出來講話嗎你會建議他出來講話嗎賴總統說沒有這是我的錯你的錯所以跟賴總統無關可是您知道我自己承擔您知道當時洪仲秋事件的時候馬總統有出來講話這是我的錯我自己承擔你自己承擔所以你保護賴總統"},{"start":421.833,"end":446.622,"text":"這是可以看到一個總統的高度啦可以看到一個總統是否站在勞工這邊啦看到一個總統是否遇到一個舉國關注的一個這樣的不幸事件的態度我只問說部長基於你是勞工的主管最高主管機關你會建議賴總統出來像馬總統一樣出來跟大家講幾句話嗎你會建議嗎我自己承擔所以你會不建議"},{"start":448.715,"end":460.563,"text":"好部長請教一下前部長許明川說他看了這個事件非常的遺憾但是他把原因歸咎於勞動部人員長期不足這樣講法您認同嗎"},{"start":461.909,"end":478.815,"text":"這是原因之一他原因之一那你是勞動部欸你發生這樣的原因然後然後就兩手一攤然後就說哎呀就是因為長期不足的關係所以造成都沒有人要去解決這個問題欸委員跟委員報告因為勞動部也是公務體制啊那所以呢"},{"start":479.915,"end":498.315,"text":"那是原總原總在決定原的不是勞動部可以決定的你是勞動部照道理來講你應該最站在勞工這邊結果你遇到這個問題兩手一攤說我們也沒辦法解決這個問題那連你們都不能保護你們自己的勞工的你怎麼祈求全台灣的企業會保護員工"},{"start":499.196,"end":527.427,"text":"事實上勞動部無法決定自己的原額有多少那你有去爭取嗎你有為了你們自己的勞工捍衛嗎權益捍衛嗎不是現在的問題是說你是勞動部你一直宣導勞工權益很重要要所有企業重視勞工權益結果你們是勞動部你們沒辦法捍衛你們自己勞工權益這位不幸的這位不幸親生的這位當事人他加班剛剛我看許晓欣也有問啊為什麼他加班不用給加班費他還有沒有超時工作有沒有"},{"start":528.183,"end":549.307,"text":"他有超時工作?有啊,那都發生在你們勞動部啊這是最諷刺的地方啊你都不檢討然後就說都是人事行政總局的問題因為員額受到控管那你要減少讓員工做一些不必要的工作啊就好比說這個員工他就講啊做這個系統對於幫助勞動部對於這個職壓發展沒有任何幫助啊你們可以減少不必要工作量啊是嗎?委員是,這都我們的錯是,我們應該要檢討"},{"start":559.246,"end":559.266,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1969,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時15分）麻煩請勞動部長，謝謝。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，昨天你開記者會告訴大家說這個謝宜容到底要怎麼處理，要送考績會來斷定，你不能夠直接停職、免職，但是今天你說你要記他兩大過停職之後，剛剛已經有消息傳出來說他要辭職，然後要去美國陪小孩，請問有這件事嗎？有這件事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我剛剛才看到。"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛才看到？所以他請辭是跟誰請辭？"],["何部長佩珊：署長知道嗎？"],["葉委員元之：署長知道這個事嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：現在沒有得到這樣的……"],["葉委員元之：還沒有這個消息？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：所以並沒有收到辭呈？"],["蔡署長孟良：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：我想要問部長，其實這個事件社會很震驚、很關心、也很痛心，大家除了看謝宜容的所作所為之外，也在看勞動部第一時間處理這個事情的態度。我感覺昨天勞動部第一時間就是想要息事寧人，你們昨天說沒有辦法證實這位員工的輕生和這個分署長的霸凌有關，沒有直接的關係，這昨天你們講的吧？是吧？你今天經過這麼多委員的詢問，你還是認為沒有直接關係嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我想透過層層的傳導。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有關係嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：會有關係。"],["葉委員元之：是有直接關係？"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["葉委員元之：你現在又覺得有直接關係了？好。"],["何部長佩珊：我是說透過層層的傳導……"],["葉委員元之：所以昨天說沒有直接關係，今天又說有直接關係。部長，你昨天說你們的調查報告是嘔心瀝血之作，今天你說要重啟調查，請問一下，如果是嘔心瀝血之作，為什麼今天又要重啟調查？為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：因為委員會要求。"],["葉委員元之：是委員會要求，還是你也覺得那個報告不是嘔心瀝血之作？"],["何部長佩珊：我也同意、我也同意。"],["葉委員元之：你也同意，那為什麼昨天第一時間你說是嘔心瀝血之作？為什麼？你是自己這樣認為，還是你受到調查委員，甚至於幾位次長的蒙蔽？"],["何部長佩珊：不是，因為那真的是外部專家花了很多時間……"],["葉委員元之：如果是這樣的話，為什麼你要重啟調查？那就尊重啊！"],["何部長佩珊：因為委員會要求……"],["葉委員元之：所以是委員會要求？"],["何部長佩珊：我們必須尊重委員會。"],["葉委員元之：所以部長你還是認為那個是嘔心瀝血之作，所以調查出來可能也是差不多？是這個意思？"],["何部長佩珊：絕對不是。"],["葉委員元之：所以你也覺得不是嘔心瀝血之作？再來，我想請教一下，「目的良善」，早上很多委員問你，「目的良善」這幾個字是因為專家基於平衡而出來的用語，這是你講的嘛！對不對？對嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：「目的良善」，你們說為什麼要寫「目的良善」這四個字是因為專家基於平衡……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，所謂基於平衡是指說當然在他們專業的論述、陳述上面，他們都必須正反……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得非常奇怪的是為什麼這種事情要基於平衡？調查報告就是把事實呈現，幹嘛要基於平衡？"],["何部長佩珊：平衡就是事實，也是事實，也是基於事實……"],["葉委員元之：那你就說基於事實嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["葉委員元之：所以「目的良善」，就是你到現在還認為這個分署長，他的霸凌行為是基於事實的目的良善，是這個意思嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：那是外部專家的認知。"],["葉委員元之：那你同意嗎？你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：那是外部專家的認知，我得尊重。"],["葉委員元之：你尊重，但你同意嗎？你同意嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：當然我沒有，我也不認同這樣子……"],["葉委員元之：你不認同嘛！因為這個事情害你們勞動部被罵爆了嘛！網友都說「目的良善」這四個字，為所有企業重新的定義，只要目的良善就可以大聲講話，就可以隨便罵人，就不叫霸凌啊！再來，昨天你說必須要通過考績會才能夠對他作出處分，你沒有直接權力，為什麼今天你又有權力了？為什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：我還是一樣要開考績會處理啊！"],["葉委員元之：那你怎麼可以直接說就要給他停職呢？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的態度，我向委員會表達我的態度。"],["葉委員元之：你的態度，所以你的態度有可能跟考績會不一樣，是不是？"],["何部長佩珊：一樣啊！應該是會一樣的，可是我還是得尊重考績會的議決。"],["葉委員元之：一樣？應該是會一樣，就代表你就可以決定了嘛，我講那麼多……"],["何部長佩珊：那還是必須尊重、經過考績會的程序。"],["葉委員元之：所以有可能不一樣？有可能不一樣？"],["何部長佩珊：不會不一樣，要經過考績會的程序。"],["葉委員元之：不會不一樣？那你就可以決定了嘛！所以昨天第一時間……"],["何部長佩珊：這是兩件事，委員，這是兩件事。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，部長，如果說你本來就可以決定，而且結果不一樣，你昨天第一時間就可以表明態度，你要給他記兩大過停職，你昨天為什麼沒有？為什麼要讓火燒了一天之後，今天才說要給他停職，為什麼？第一時間不跟大家講清楚……"],["何部長佩珊：因為我改變我的思考。"],["葉委員元之：你得思考？"],["何部長佩珊：因為我改變我的思考。"],["葉委員元之：所以部長，我再跟你講，謝宜容這個人有問題，我相信經過大家的討論都不用再講了，大家現在要看的是勞動部的態度，勞動部如果第一時間是想息事寧人，說要怎麼處分是考績會決定，我不能講，或是說這是嘔心瀝血的報告，或是說這是目的良善，你們去講這些讓大家覺得是在包庇他的話，大家會對勞動部失望啊！"],["何部長佩珊：我沒有包庇他。"],["葉委員元之：你知道網友現在已經把這個事件跟洪仲丘事件連結，為什麼？第一個，都是跟霸凌有關。第二個，都是官僚主義在包庇，這是大家現在對勞動部的感覺！"],["何部長佩珊：委員，我做調查報告就是希望不包庇。"],["葉委員元之：不包庇結果做出來的是這樣的報告，大家都不滿意。再來，請教一下，如果你要重新調查的話，你還會找許傳盛、黃玲娜、吳雅慧這三個人來調查嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：黃玲娜和吳雅慧都不是調查小組成員。"],["葉委員元之：那他們三個是？"],["何部長佩珊：只有許傳盛是召集人。"],["葉委員元之：那另外兩位呢？"],["何部長佩珊：另外兩位，吳雅慧參事是我的機要……"],["葉委員元之：他們在調查的過程當中扮演的角色是什麼？"],["何部長佩珊：他沒有角色。"],["葉委員元之：完全沒角色？"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！整個調查小組……"],["葉委員元之：好，所以就不會找他們嘛！"],["何部長佩珊：當然，這是網路的……"],["葉委員元之：那你就回答就好啦！你嗆我幹嘛？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起、對不起！"],["葉委員元之：奇怪！我問你問題你就回答就好，現在要來吵架是不是？是我做錯事嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：對不起！這是網路上的不實訊息。"],["葉委員元之：那你就澄清啊！我現在問你，你說不是那就不是，就澄清啊！"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：你罵我幹嘛？再來，五一勞動節時賴總統說民進黨一直是跟勞工站在一起的政黨，這是賴總統講的，發生了這樣不幸的勞工事件，還是在勞動部發生，請問賴總統要出來講話嗎？你會建議他出來講話嗎？賴總統說……"],["何部長佩珊：沒有，這是我的錯。"],["葉委員元之：你的錯，所以跟賴總統無關？"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的錯，我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：你知道當時洪仲丘事件的時候，馬總統有出來講話。"],["何部長佩珊：這是我的錯，我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：你自己承擔，所以你保護賴總統？這可以看到一個總統的高度，可以看到一個總統是否站在勞工這邊，看到總統遇到一個舉國關注、這樣不幸事件的態度，我只想問部長，基於你是勞工的最高主管機關，你會建議賴總統像馬總統一樣出來跟大家講幾句話嗎？你會這樣建議嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我自己承擔。"],["葉委員元之：所以你不會建議？請教部長，前部長許銘春說他看了這個事件非常遺憾，但是他把原因歸咎於勞動部人員長期不足，這樣講法你認同嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：這是原因之一。"],["葉委員元之：原因之一？"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["葉委員元之：你是勞動部，發生這樣的原因，然後就兩手一攤，說就是因為長期不足的關係，所以造成這個問題，都沒有人要去解決這個問題？"],["何部長佩珊：跟委員報告，因為勞動部也是公務體制。"],["葉委員元之：所以呢？"],["何部長佩珊：那是人總在決定員額，不是勞動部可以決定的。"],["葉委員元之：部長，你是勞動部，照道理來講，你應該最站在勞工這邊，結果你遇到這個問題兩手一攤，說你們也沒辦法解決這個問題……"],["何部長佩珊：委員，這個就是勞動部……"],["葉委員元之：如果連你們都不能保護你們自己的勞工，你怎麼祈求全臺灣的企業會保護員工？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上，勞動部無法決定自己的員額有多少。"],["葉委員元之：那你有去爭取嗎？你有為了你們自己的勞工權益捍衛嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：111年許部長已經爭取過，我……"],["葉委員元之：現在的問題是你是勞動部，你一直宣導勞工權益很重要，要所有企業重視勞工權益，結果勞動部卻沒辦法捍衛你們自己的勞工權益。這位不幸輕生的當事人，我看到剛剛徐巧芯也有問，為什麼他加班不用給加班費？他有沒有超時工作？有沒有？"],["何部長佩珊：他有超時工作。"],["葉委員元之：有，發生在你們勞動部就是最諷刺的地方，你都不檢討，然後說都是人事行政總處的問題，因為員額受到控管，那你要減少讓員工做一些不必要的工作，就好比這個員工提到，做這個系統對於幫助勞動部、對於職涯發展沒有任何幫助，你們可以減少不必要的工作量，不是嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：委員，是，這都我們的錯，我們應該要檢討。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請邱若華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-9","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王育敏","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林月琴","邱鎮軍","王育敏","陳瑩","楊曜","涂權吉","盧縣一","廖偉翔","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","李彥秀","黃國昌","葉元之","邱若華","洪申翰","牛煦庭","羅智強","鄭正鈐","林倩綺","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","林國成","張嘉郡","柯志恩","萬美玲"],"page_start":231,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310201_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、銓敘部、國防部、內政部警政署、內政部消防署、行政院人事行政總處、考試\n院、公務人員保障暨培訓委員會、教育部及國家科學及技術委員會就「職場霸凌防治與處理作\n業」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310201_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}