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．"},{"start":2363.554,"end":2384.12,"text":"一定的進度來進行,特別是明天我們就要召開第一次的碳費費利審議委員會,那昨天媒體也已經鋪路我們21位的碳費費利委員,那等他們召開之後,事實上我想碳費的標準就會"},{"start":2385.16,"end":2412.291,"text":"有清楚提供在兒權公約我們2014年台灣國內法化之後那去年8月28日也出了一個意見書叫做第26號意見書談的是他們的氣候權也就是兒童有這樣的氣候權他們同時也有表意權那來表達尤其是這邊也特別提醒說各國應該必須採取一切必要適當跟合理的措施來保護"},{"start":2413.071,"end":2433.798,"text":"還指免受於工商企業造成或者是延續跟氣候變遷有關的損害那同時企業有責任尊重跟氣候變遷有關的兒童權利那就要來問部長如果在講氣候權的時候他們有表譽權那部長有關2050年淨零排放入境方法實成是不是有跟青少年對話過"},{"start":2435.309,"end":2450.871,"text":"是的,事實上環境教育裡面很重要的一部分是包括氣候變遷特別是在我們2050年的部長我先提醒不是在教育裡面是這個政策這相關有沒有跟青少年充分的對話"},{"start":2452.763,"end":2466.608,"text":"因為他們關心這個地球未來是他們的那他們要在這邊生活我說特別提醒說青少年就有講過說我們就是你們的後代如果你把地球給毀了我們將在哪裡生活所以想問說你有沒有跟他們對話"},{"start":2469.207,"end":2483.312,"text":"給委員報告我們在第三期我剛有稍微提到就是說現在正在訂定的一個我們減碳的目標裡面事實上就有跟青少年去做一個溝通跟對話"},{"start":2484.332,"end":2484.932,"text":"好 下一頁好好"},{"start":2514.286,"end":2535.418,"text":"市長從臺大風險中心民眾其實對於氣候變遷能源轉型是有高度認知的,將近八成民眾事實上同意的因為避免後代子孫要承接我們所遺留下來的比較糟糕的環境那我在從環境部這邊大概也看到就是我們已經事實上我們的發電業佔國內室溫氣體排放超過五成可是從氣候變遷因應法裡面第28條第二項"},{"start":2542.691,"end":2563.065,"text":"把生產電力的直接排放元排除在外當然理解因為用意是在避免我們增加發電業的負擔進而影響到物價可是也要問部長在這種排除的狀況下目前排碳業大宗就是發電業那環境部接下來怎麼約束改善"},{"start":2563.96,"end":2584.177,"text":"這個部分是不是就請你提出報告給我們這邊來下一頁也就是台灣到底準備好了嗎因為從我們台灣的企業端事實上充滿憂慮的因為有高達八成的企業感受到外界因為國際上的一些壓力包括歐盟已經提出我們的探邊境的"},{"start":2584.757,"end":2590.802,"text":"調整機制跟美國清潔競爭法案即將在2027年課稅所以國際遊戲來勢洶洶已經讓我們臺灣企業也焦慮如熱鍋上的螞蟻所以想問臺灣在這種供應鏈當中佔有很重要的位置"},{"start":2604.198,"end":2629.253,"text":"所以這個轉型的壓力超過5成是來自國際的客戶要求但遺憾的目前只有兩成企業設定目標也只有4成進行我們的碳盤查落後國際事實上一大段的距離所以接下來我們國為了提高競爭力要徵收碳費那我們就要來問這個碳費到底接下來要怎麼"},{"start":2639.386,"end":2645.574,"text":"而所以你碳費徵收是不是能有扣除2.5萬噸所以請部長說明未來是不是還有2.5萬噸的扣除額"},{"start":2652.578,"end":2668.984,"text":"給委員報告就是說當初2.5萬噸有人提到說應該把它扣除額最主要是根據類似所得稅的概念就是說有人舉一個例子比如說這家公司排碳2.4萬噸所以我一直問你未來你還會有這個嗎2.5萬噸的扣除額嗎"},{"start":2673.385,"end":2683.24,"text":"後來我們考量的結果應該還是要由碳費審議委員會去決定但是後來有另外一個聲音就是說假如你扣除這2.5萬噸"},{"start":2685.925,"end":2709.94,"text":"所以會有審議委員會來決定是嗎現在好像是有兩股聲音那我們就交給探會審議委員會來做決定好謝謝林委員所以檢探是玩真的還是玩假球當然是真的為什麼從環境部這個要用2.5萬噸如果用這個起點的話那又因應我們的28條第二項的話電力業免"},{"start":2712.581,"end":2716.683,"text":"一般的排談量所以很懷疑到底是打真的還是假的所以"},{"start":2731.189,"end":2748.838,"text":"不知道讓人家感覺到是不是有一種消極心態是不是可以告訴我們像國人說明目前未管制的範圍到底環境部如何促進其檢探的給委員報告就是說外界因為不清楚所以有一些誤解"},{"start":2750.439,"end":2762.919,"text":"那事實上我們最主要目的是要讓企業去推動自主減碳特別是假如能夠根據歐盟的SBT部長因為我實現有限齁因為這邊前一陣子你們在開會"},{"start":2765.601,"end":2790.803,"text":"講了好像很多優惠誘因折扣非常非常大這句話讓我們覺得蠻擔心的吼那所以先問一個覺得你今天很高興聽到你們審議委員會已經組成了想問一個我每次很看政府的這種寫的法條都非常的好到時候公民團體要多少因為我想問你的政府學者民間團體跟工商團體的比例到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":2791.243,"end":2801.575,"text":"可不可以在這邊說明一下給林委員報告我們這一次21位委員裡邊專家學者占8名那民間團體裡邊有工商團體環團以及專業團體譬如說像會計師"},{"start":2809.404,"end":2830.783,"text":"另外工商團體以及環團環的好像是有3位還是4位：比例也還蠻高的公民團體跟工商團體的差異大概比例上公共常常就很多公民團體關心環保他如果都不能進來跟你討論的話就不能夠切中要害"},{"start":2831.804,"end":2851.18,"text":"但是我們還有專家寫者以及政府這個部位我目前所聽到的我們昨天公布的名單事實上好像應該社會也還蠻認同的因為我們涵蓋各個層面那我們當然希望說委員會能夠考量多面的因素"},{"start":2851.82,"end":2852.3,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2889.379,"end":2911.278,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長請部長部長你好部長你朋友啦嘛所以你到高中之前都你朋友嘛你朋友空氣這麼好所以你18歲以前你的肺部是沒有被汙染的"},{"start":2912.193,"end":2912.553,"text":"那是沙塵暴吧?"},{"start":2930.988,"end":2949.593,"text":"包括沙塵暴也有包括工業的污染因為到冬天都吹北風到東北風所以我們中南部我個人身為中南部的一份子我覺得中南部事實上是還蠻受到影響的這個就是這一張slide"},{"start":2951.913,"end":2975.249,"text":"這一張是從高雄看到我們屏東的大武山北大武跟南大武那天這樣大家屏東觀眾跳到大家開心到因為難得看到這麼清楚的因為那天吹南風南風吹得很強把那個空都飛掉了下一張這就是平常時的屏東臨風啦 屏東就是這樣 沒錯"},{"start":2980.533,"end":3004.726,"text":"越來越嚴重看到這麼糟糕的空氣汙染我們憲政委員很高興我是覺得他們是搞不清狀況每次人去到屏東 因為屏東沒水 只有海而已因為看沒水 每天都有沙沙"},{"start":3006.598,"end":3011.862,"text":"那你看看這全部都是高雄那些尤其是臨盆那些新達港、秘密、馬達林、火力發電廠、臨岩港、中港這些排碳、PM2.5、PM10"},{"start":3028.004,"end":3052.901,"text":"你是念奈米科技的齁所以齁你應該這個這很清楚齁那我們高屏東的肺腺癌很高非常高齁我不知道是不是全球第一啦齁你看看你看以前是紫 紫豹現在是紅點啦因為怕紫豹不好看齁所以都要把那個標準降低齁你看 這樣都是在這沿海這一帶所以我這裡要"},{"start":3056.905,"end":3065.082,"text":"問部長新達火力發電廠的二氧化碳CO2的排放量是台灣第幾名"},{"start":3066.574,"end":3093.871,"text":"根文報告事實上新達火力化電廠已經在去年全部替換燃煤以燃氣來用乾淨的煤是不是我們總統講的用天然氣的已經全部都轉換了所以我們也非常感謝經濟部台電真的非常努力事實上新達火力化電廠已經沒有再燃煤了都是用燃氣新達火力化電廠的排碳量是全台灣第二名"},{"start":3095.032,"end":3107.533,"text":"全世界113名中鋼是全世界141名這都很嚴重的然後清達福利化電廠大林福利化電廠百分之40的電北送"},{"start":3108.872,"end":3124.157,"text":"南電北送然後這個電廠一般火力化電廠25年他已經39年40年還在搞當然你說換機族這樣是算新的還算舊的我也搞不清楚所以我們高屏尤其是屏東"},{"start":3125.177,"end":3151.55,"text":"沒有享受到好處,阿整個風阿捏,像你剛才講的,要背過來,齁,隆隆背去屏東,阿中安山脈兩千多公尺要把他擋住,所以我們從潮州、屏東、太湖,阿捏,到來義,迷迷茂茂,阿以為每天都阿捏,萌萌飄飄阿捏,以為是三藍之氣,結果都是空汙。部長,阿你要怎麼做?你新的補定,你就要看要怎麼做,沒有,我們要繼續騷擾他嗎?"},{"start":3154.46,"end":3180.3,"text":"給蘇緣報告這一點我感同身受所以像最近昨天包括我們跟NASA的空屋策戰的那個就是選定高雄跟屏東因為我們看過去這些年來的一個紀錄真的是高屏地區空屋的情況特別嚴重秋冬季節這個吹北風東北風就跑到南部來那"},{"start":3181.601,"end":3207.321,"text":"春夏,事實上我們東南沿岸這些東南亞國家他們燃燒森池吹西南風,說真的也是第一個受害方式。 完整,大廳也偷偷,大廳也偷偷啦。我們屏東的空汙補助會跟國融也比不上國融。所以我們要第一次要求屏東的空汙補助要提高。第二,我今天有提案"},{"start":3208.443,"end":3213.803,"text":"我們今天要做提檢,尤其是新費功能的,要給我們補助"},{"start":3214.861,"end":3220.564,"text":"我們盡量來配合我覺得這個是應該做某一個程度的補助我是心中外科醫生PM2.5就是跟癌症、心血管疾病PM10就是跟PM2.5、PM10有關係再來就是不應症那都有絕對的關係"},{"start":3242.838,"end":3267.043,"text":"現在年輕女性就是乳癌肺腺癌藍的也是肺腺癌都越來越高而且越來年輕化所以我一直在羨慕我們部長你是從在澎湖享受好的空氣所以我今天的提案也跟你報告再來就是那個海灘先明年後年要開始收稅了對不對"},{"start":3268.393,"end":3272.721,"text":"碳費對那一年要五六千億台幣是真的嗎沒有啦哪裡有到五六千億沒有勒"},{"start":3278.018,"end":3298.044,"text":"你如果說是差不多說三百塊一棟三百塊一棟也差不多四百億還是多少全台灣的對就全台灣因為我們現在分階段首先是對排碳量超過2.5萬噸每年針對這大戶大概550家"},{"start":3303.97,"end":3326.99,"text":"接下來實施一段時間之後這個門檻可能會來檢討會繼續往下那終究我們就是覺得要進齡必須要全民運動光靠企業也不夠但是根據我們的資料的確是排蛋大戶大概是這550家就佔了將近75%所以當然是要先從這一塊來處理"},{"start":3330.273,"end":3355.166,"text":"我們屏東一年的空氣污染是超過168天一年是一半都是紙棒所以部長接下來我會緊盯著環保環境支援部我會盯著緊緊的再來我們講屏東我們那個高鐵特定區那邊我昨天特別質詢我們"},{"start":3357.435,"end":3383.977,"text":"相關的單位你看到這個是屏東高鐵站 紅紅一堆那些民洋常常爆炸的所在都要離一公里而已 一公里通啊所以這家的化工廠我昨天要求那個勞動部一定要加強契合阿你環環保環環境支援部家有得有得就沒有有得跟著monitor或者是"},{"start":3385.726,"end":3411.869,"text":"來我們謝署長報告一下好了報告委員因為高鐵特定區它是屬於關鍵基礎設施所以在災防法下來交通部本來在關鍵基礎設施就有一個計畫我們會參與裡面另外高鐵站附近就是民航國際這裡也有運作獨奧的廠商所以我們會把它涵蓋在裡面那現在都是監控訓練之類的都在做所以這個地方要特別用心因為這個地方我們保料啊現在鐵都給我們保料"},{"start":3414.838,"end":3424.426,"text":"為地為碗,為事的也為碗,這個一定要加強,我一定會盯著,好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇委員。好,謝謝蘇委員。接下來請陳金輝委員。"},{"start":3446.205,"end":3452.43,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體朋友大家早安我也是想請部長請學部長部長對剛剛呼應所有人提到的啦"},{"start":3460.871,"end":3490.291,"text":"空污環境污染絕對跟我出生是不孕症醫師嘛息息相關息息相關我們現在已經證實男性女性的生殖功能下降都與空污水污染塑化劑等等全部都連在一起的對所以我個人是非常重視人口永續還有您這一本提到的永續議題我今天也穿了這個廢棄牛仔褲這我就職當天穿的"},{"start":3490.811,"end":3512.756,"text":"會議員．"},{"start":3514.824,"end":3535.109,"text":"我們的會議回收應該是還算不錯是不是請我們大署長針對這個來跟我們沒有不錯等一下我直接把數據給你看我們非一回收從2016到2022是燃燒很多非一的焚壞就一的焚壞是因為"},{"start":3536.469,"end":3557.776,"text":"現在快時尚所以我們的衣服淘汰得很快你回收已經沒有人要穿了再來因為快時尚所以這些衣服質料並不是好的就算回收大家也不會去穿給陳委員報告最主要是現在過去一段時間大家在衣服的設計他是使用多種的材料"},{"start":3558.752,"end":3574.936,"text":"那回收事實上很希望的是單一的材質比如說PET好具子類的那因為過去的觀念不一樣那現在環境部在推動的就是使用單一的材質那這樣就可以提升回收的比例啦"},{"start":3575.196,"end":3591.869,"text":" ．"},{"start":3592.59,"end":3598.834,"text":"對所以我幫你把它叫出來我們112年12月頒發這個聯索品牌服飾業及百貨零售的紡織品循環指引歡迎業者踴躍參加成為永續時尚的聯盟成員嗎是結果呢我們全台灣聯索品牌289個"},{"start":3613.985,"end":3616.308,"text":"這個誠意工廠紡織4511家可是根據我詢問你們環境部的回覆數據目前只有6個廠商來申請請問這樣算是踴躍參加嗎"},{"start":3630.798,"end":3652.967,"text":"應該是有很大的努力空間那我給部長幾個建議好不好你看一下你要參加這個指引啊你每半年還要提供一個報告所以沒有業者廠商會想要做這種自願性增加工作來成為你們的永續時尚聯盟的成員啊"},{"start":3653.607,"end":3671.904,"text":"如果當然部長你很忙啦但如果你有空到UNIQLO到這個無印良品走一走你會發現很多業者已經自發性的設了一個永續專區裡面有這些回收布料做成衣服他們自己做自己打自己的品牌他們沒有在理你這個欸他們參加這個沒有好處啊"},{"start":3681.289,"end":3689.155,"text":"對不然你半年寫字報告誰願意但現在非常多自發性的業者如果你有空你可以去走一走也應該要去獎勵他們"},{"start":3690.968,"end":3714.704,"text":"另外另外我們看一下自從COVID疫情之後其實全球全台灣消費習慣都轉為電商你也知道這個電商呢零售業網路包裝喔每年可以產生五萬公噸的包裝廢棄物像網路這個購物是大家的日常這一點"},{"start":3715.99,"end":3726.016,"text":"我們今天的報告裡面著墨甚少但其實這是全台灣人的消費習慣我希望未來你們相關措施在哪裡"},{"start":3727.25,"end":3728.91,"text":"台灣的電商有15萬家喔"},{"start":3756.991,"end":3777.838,"text":"跟我們報告那我們在那個網購包裝部分那我們在前幾年實施的第一階段已經把它法制化就是有一個強制規定它的一個包裝比例還有材質那另外就是第二階段因為要做更精進的做法所以是一個先來這個資源去推動那未來會以這個強制的方式來做這邊也給你一個建議因為現在呢"},{"start":3778.658,"end":3803.089,"text":"現在小女生他們自己在家裡客廳就可以成立一個工作室所以他們其實C2C的賣東西非常容易你現在只有找一些大的電商他只是提供一個平台但很多人是自己賣東西這個你是管不了的所以你也必須要想辦法去管這些C2C的個人賣家很多很多因為現在青年創業"},{"start":3804.229,"end":3818.77,"text":"的門檻降低了所以大家在家裡直播就可以賣東西了然後就會造成大量的汙染再來部長你自己有使用過這個循環杯嗎因為你今天的書面這個報告也有提到循環杯"},{"start":3820.72,"end":3844.111,"text":"是我其實都是帶著自己的杯子是所以你去買飲料像我就大量外食嗎所以你去買飲料你去問你去問店員真的你實地考察每一個店員都跟我說沒有用沒有人用循環杯你自己的報告也講不出循環杯推出以後到底的用量是幾次但是你有講到"},{"start":3844.571,"end":3863.391,"text":"大家自己帶杯子提高到16%這個非常好可是你循環杯製造了很多垃圾喔我詢問每一個店員店員都說因為顧客覺得很髒啊每個人都不知道這個循環杯幾個人喝過啦所以你的利益很良好但他現在使用率極低啊"},{"start":3865.441,"end":3880.241,"text":"給委員報告的確這個民眾他是對這個衛生考量所以他會比較有一點排斥不過假如從這個我們把這個一次性的這些"},{"start":3881.783,"end":3908.637,"text":"這個飲料杯的減少的量來看事實上過去這幾年大概從15%我給你一個具體的建議循環杯什麼狀況最適合比如說大的商辦他下面有咖啡店上面有幾十家公司他每天上班的時候買循環杯上去下班丟而不是我們現在路邊隨便的零售飲料店都在弄循環杯你這樣是不切實際的"},{"start":3909.938,"end":3932.668,"text":"所以你應該要把它分類到底誰才會真的用到所以下一個剛剛講到說的確你一定要提供誘因嘛所以你一定要實質的去補助獎勵這些有用分解材質或者是有再生材質這些技術的國內的廠家再來你應該要要求他提高這些再生材質的比率到多少啊"},{"start":3933.288,"end":3959.976,"text":"然後最後我看到你們有超多種的標章有衣服的有飲料的有這個包裝的你應該要把它統一啊你應該要做一個有公信力的永續標章然後不要讓我們喝喝個東西要找這個標章穿衣服要找那個標章對其實它就是一樣的概念啊是吧謝謝陳文的建議事實上這一點我們正有在進行當中"},{"start":3961.517,"end":3978.862,"text":"對勇氣就是說把不同的標章看因為現在從新聞裡面都還看到說你們每一個細項都還是分不同的標章其實大家會一片混亂好對這個我們來最後我想要呼應剛剛林月琴委員質詢的題目好我們看一下你明天就要開這個審議會了嗎是對這是去年的新聞喔"},{"start":3992.202,"end":4001.586,"text":"去年1月修正三讀氣候法說半年內會提出所有碳費的執法"},{"start":4003.171,"end":4022.237,"text":"啊這是今天你提出來的簡報今天我們重要執法的修訂進度有三項全民最關心的一個是碳費收費辦法含收費對象第二個收費對象指定減量目標第三個自主減量計劃審核辦法"},{"start":4024.057,"end":4035.412,"text":"這三個你上面寫社會溝通中去年1月你說半年內要全部提出來現在我們已經過了兩個半年又過了三個月了但是還在社會溝通中"},{"start":4036.977,"end":4052.621,"text":"給委員報告因為環境部也是去年8月22才成立的所以這期間事實上有一段是主改的過程對整個這個環境部的業務推動事實上是有一點點的確遲緩因為剛剛講嘛去年的2月15號總統公佈去後變遷因應法"},{"start":4058.803,"end":4081.173,"text":"那8月22號環境部成立那我也想問因為您剛回答林委員說你不知道合理的收費多少後來又跟蘇委員說300塊所以你們明天舉個例子舉個例子說假如因為蘇委員說四五千億一年可以收四五千億所以你們明天會不會給我們一個具體的收費辦法會不會"},{"start":4083.537,"end":4107.93,"text":"因為所有人都很關心他影響我們物價指數 事實上大家關心的是費率而已 收費辦法應該是 明天會訂嗎 費率不會明天出來 因為明天才第一次委員見面 大家總是要互相溝通 那環境部也要告訴他們整個背景過程大概怎麼樣 那真的這個對於國內許多廠商非常的麻煩 他訂不出他的成本"},{"start":4109.414,"end":4110.174,"text":"我們請下一個委員黃秀芳委員謝謝主席我們請薛部長"},{"start":4137.34,"end":4151.404,"text":"市長,我想針對我們的廢棄物的政策來跟這個部長這邊來討論。看到前兩天部長有到那個外埔綠能生態園區去會館嗎?是。你是去看黑水嗎?還是?"},{"start":4154.535,"end":4170.866,"text":"不是給黃文報告,事實上我去年11月17號因為我知道說外埔力能生技園區是國內第一個利用這個生廚宜去做早期花店,把它變成能源化"},{"start":4171.286,"end":4198.679,"text":"我覺得這個是一個非常好的案例結果我去了之後瞭解情況在早期發電方面的確已經開始在發電而且累計將近990萬瓦這個990萬度非常好可是他的問題是他產生的早雜早業都還要花很多錢硬到外面去處理那我個人覺得這個是不符合循環經濟的概念"},{"start":4199.94,"end":4218.951,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4219.311,"end":4236.922,"text":"跟台中市政府環保局建議你們一定要這樣做你不能把這些早雜早月月送到外面去每年要花好幾百萬我個人覺得這個那部長我想問一下就是說我們之前的這個廚餘有的是用這個高速廚餘發酵廠"},{"start":4238.763,"end":4258.097,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":4258.397,"end":4286.123,"text":"我不知道你的這個立場是怎樣你現在是希望就是說用養這個黑水芒來去化這個廚餘或者是用另外其他的方式事實上我的概念是希望能夠達到零廢棄事實上廚餘它是現在還蠻珍貴很多人都想要使用廚餘但是使用的方法我個人覺得有改善的空間我們朝兩個方向第一個是能源化"},{"start":4287.21,"end":4303.78,"text":"．"},{"start":4303.88,"end":4333.383,"text":"他是一個非常好的方法目前來講我們的廚藝的處理量能事實上不會有問題事實上是都夠只是很多單位他們所用的方法我個人覺得沒有全面去考量應該把循環經濟的概念所以你們現在要主推這個養黑水盲來區劃廚藝我們衡量了結果我覺得黑水盲真的是非常好的一個循環經濟的案例那我們也看到很多成功的例子"},{"start":4335.445,"end":4349.803,"text":"我想請問一下就是說目前養黑水芒其實還是少量就是說他養的那個還是少量那也是去不是全面性的啦那我想請教部長未來你們要怎麼去推動"},{"start":4351.384,"end":4379.139,"text":"基本上叫業界要馬上改變他以往的習慣事實上是有時候有一些挑戰所以我們現在是過度譬如說以剛剛黃委員講到外埔那個我們也是補助他們去做一個釋放的場域那希望這個可以成功他把他這個廚餘變成能源變成資源那將來國內的各縣市事實上可以以"},{"start":4380.369,"end":4402.38,"text":"臺中外部的這個案例來推廣是那事實上現在包括新北包括像彰化彰化田中對也都有可是他們都是少量啦對但是量都很少是量都還是很少所以這個當然要考量到從經濟的角度來看就是說你產生的這些這個不管是肥料"},{"start":4403.28,"end":4419.187,"text":"或者飼料他的去化是不是能夠很順暢是這樣子才能夠解決這個問題所以像我們現在目前有的是直接丟到焚化爐那有的是剛剛講的這個發酵就是廚餘發酵廠去處理那我想問一下你們這個發酵就是說建置這種高速的發酵這個廚餘的發酵你們未來還會繼續推嗎還是就是朝著黑水嗎"},{"start":4432.455,"end":4433.356,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":4462.715,"end":4479.4,"text":"所以得資源的利用當然就是我們在去年選舉的時候有候選人說如果說吃東西就是不留廚餘的話就不用去建這個廚餘廠那當然我覺得這不太可能所以我是想要知道就是說那未來像"},{"start":4480.2,"end":4491.455,"text":"像我們一些人口比較密集的地方如果要設這種黑水盲的這種比如說有的清潔隊各縣市的清潔隊如果說你們要去推的話是不是也要從清潔隊就是說地方環保局"},{"start":4495.66,"end":4520.511,"text":"下去推好各個清潔隊是不是也要有這樣的一個能力來處理這些廚藝如果可以各個環保局自行來處理的話我覺得這個也是不錯的一個想法然後我不知道說部長你的看法是怎樣可以我非常認同這個黃委員剛剛的建議我是這樣清潔隊他們本身也有在收集廚藝那假如有"},{"start":4520.691,"end":4520.711,"text":"獲得獎項"},{"start":4541.491,"end":4542.251,"text":"事實上我們看過很多黑水盲的養殖場"},{"start":4569.838,"end":4592.597,"text":"大小規模都有甚至家戶也都可以我上一次到宜蘭去參觀一位臺大的石教授他退休他自己弄他事實上也有弄了一個家戶式的處理的方式也是養黑水馬對小跟大大概都可以處理所以這個彈性還蠻大的就是說未來我們會推廣希望說"},{"start":4594.258,"end":4617.952,"text":"這個清潔隊地方環保局共同來推動那希望把它除以把它能源化跟資源化是做最大的利用好因為我們看到目前還是小區域對就是小部分那小規模小部分小規模然後局部的區域在做而已那如果說部長你現在未來的這個方向是這樣的話"},{"start":4618.792,"end":4647.922,"text":"其實我覺得可能要從最基層的可能可以從各地區的這個清潔單這個清潔隊或是環保局這邊來推動那我相信目前像彰化田中鎮這邊他們目前就是有養那聽說這些廚餘他們收的廚餘供這個黑水芒吃有時候都還不夠吃所以我才會說那個廚餘現在事實上反而是供不應求很多人都想要"},{"start":4648.462,"end":4662.95,"text":"好那我們當然希望如果是這樣子的話我們也希望就未來這個廚餘真的是也是我們蠻頭痛的一個一個問題因為每天所產生的這個廚餘真的是非常的多"},{"start":4663.57,"end":4664.01,"text":"好謝謝黃委員的支持謝謝黃委員"},{"start":4691.946,"end":4714.818,"text":"那下一個我們有請那個圖圈及圖委員有請薛部長圖委員好"},{"start":4717.165,"end":4733.347,"text":"學習部長我請問一下因為本期在當桃園市議員的時候就非常關心我們固體再生燃燒SRF的相關議題我想請問一下我們部長那關於SRF燃燒的材質成分裡面有包含哪些"},{"start":4735.241,"end":4737.824,"text":"所以有包含塑膠、廢輪胎、PVC這些裡面都有嘛 對不對對對對好"},{"start":4756.98,"end":4779.321,"text":"那請問一下所以那我們國際上標準的綠能有包含可以燃燒PVC塑膠廢輪胎金屬等事業廢棄物嗎綠能基本上沒有這一塊綠能所以我們表示綠能的標準就是不能燃燒這些有毒物質是不是"},{"start":4780.379,"end":4796.099,"text":"對綠能大概不會這樣而且綠能必須是永續對其實簡單說啦綠能應該就是碳排他要低到趨近於0所產生的電力我們才叫綠能嘛那所以我看一下我們下面這張表格齁"},{"start":4796.9,"end":4818.754,"text":"那我們這個SRF我們燃燒出很多有毒的物質 那我們這個標準我們的綠的含量是人家歐盟的兩倍 共的含量更是高達數十倍 所以我們的SRF根本就不能稱之為綠能乾淨的能源 所以這一點我希望說要跟我們社會大眾來釐清"},{"start":4822.172,"end":4840.482,"text":"我們從來沒有說SRF是乾淨能源沒有所以我們要釐清因為很多人會誤以為我們台灣的SRF好像是綠能所以今天透過部長來瞭解因為SRF它碳排這麼嚴重排放出這麼多有毒的物質所以我們覺得我們這個SRF應該要被抵制"},{"start":4843.664,"end":4867.41,"text":"那我也不知道我們的行政院副院長鄭文燦還有我們經濟部長王美花還打算在我們桃園要蓋3家的SRF發電廠我是希望不要犧牲我們桃園人的費不要用我們的費來發電不過跟土委員報告一下就是說這裡面可能有一些誤解事實上包括歐盟"},{"start":4868.49,"end":4884.061,"text":"美國日本也都有在使用SRF他的著言點不是說他並沒有排放任何包括二氧化碳或者其他沒關係我只要證實SRF不是綠能就好了對對好那所以我們SRF源頭"},{"start":4885.001,"end":4885.882,"text":"我印象中大概29家啦齁"},{"start":4907.971,"end":4929.479,"text":"沒關係我們爭取時間我跟部長報告據我們了解全台灣有53間的製造商有11間的鍋爐使用場那如果這樣不知道我們署長還是我們署長這邊知不知道這麼多的製造商跟這麼多的鍋爐使用場有幾間在桃園"},{"start":4933.622,"end":4953.494,"text":"我們是就這個全國的一個數量統計那因為桃園還有幾個現實好沒關係所以署長這沒關係因為時間的問題我跟大家報因為這我們都調查過有5間製造商在桃園然後有5間的鍋爐使用場在桃園所以本席認為不是說桃園不應該有"},{"start":4954.835,"end":4977.169,"text":"但是你想想看這麼高的比例而且有一半SRF的鍋爐使用場都在桃園我覺得這個完全不符合的使用比例的原則而且我們桃園現在已經有五大火力發電廠現在中油三接工程也在進行而且還打算在我們桃科園區再增加三接SRF發電廠我希望能夠注重我們"},{"start":4981.051,"end":4995.081,"text":"全台灣人民的健康注重桃園人的健康希望我們這個我們環境部能夠重視不要讓我們桃園成為我們全台灣空氣污染的第一名因為這個為桃園的健康我覺得我們應該要在這邊發聲還有請問一下我們一噸SRF這個替代能源替代0.86噸的煤一噸的我們的SRF可以替代0.86噸的煤"},{"start":5010.831,"end":5039.192,"text":"但是SRF的成分比煤更複雜對不對是所以在歐盟來講他們把SRF當作一個產品分類所以他比煤複雜嘛對不對對一定比煤複雜所以我們前面已經討論過燃燒SRF如果沒有管控好會產生很多嚴重的代藥性等有毒的物質那針對這部分我想問一下我們環境部有沒有什麼因應的辦法"},{"start":5042.495,"end":5060.167,"text":"給這個圖文報告事實上以往環境部對SRF的概念是不是從產品端目前針對這有沒有提出辦法有有我們已經想要跟歐盟一樣把SRF分類現在跟在做延伸"},{"start":5060.247,"end":5083.485,"text":"好那我跟部長報告在去年7月的時候你們就說要解決社會大眾的疑慮提出SRF的三個修正法案可是到今年你們的立法計畫完全沒有提出半年過去了所以從部長這邊我知道表示這個法案還沒有提出來對不對給圖文報告因為我的觀念跟以往已經"},{"start":5084.793,"end":5106.407,"text":"還沒有到環境部的時候的做法有改變我告訴他們SRF要做產品分類以往是沒有做產品分類所以部長目前還沒有提出嘛對我只要了解目前還沒有提出嘛對不對我們自己部內已經有把產品分類都做好我希望盡快來提出因為去年台中大理長興能源失智違法製造這個SRF"},{"start":5107.648,"end":5122.477,"text":"然後也沒有做好我們污染防治這違法的情形非常嚴重那我想請問一下環境部知道這個案例嗎給委員報告我們發現以往的確有一些問題就是說包括要增設SRF廠他只輸面"},{"start":5123.749,"end":5137.837,"text":"啊計劃書就好了所以我們現在修訂除了書面審查之外還要現看還要試車都要去看所以又增加後面兩道的關卡所以將來將來會進行三階段審查對不對書審試運轉跟現看對不對是是是那我們這個中央地方會審機制建立了嗎"},{"start":5146.221,"end":5159.487,"text":"有事實上給我們報告這個環境部跟地方環保局事實上關係跟好那請問我們剛剛我們部長講的審查辦法請問公布了沒有然後有幾家已經通過審查辦法了"},{"start":5160.302,"end":5162.582,"text":"公佈了嗎?所以還沒有公佈嗎?現在有沒有哪些廠商已經經過這個辦法審查的?所以其實還沒有正式審查 有廠商已經經過你這審查辦法通過的嗎?"},{"start":5190.248,"end":5204.201,"text":"還沒有嘛對不對所以我說希望我們這個盡快來進行這53家燃料棒的製造商還有11間的鍋爐使用場我們環境部目前看到都還沒有用這個審查機制來加強審查"},{"start":5206.263,"end":5219.581,"text":"我們希望我們能夠盡快來處理因為我相信全台灣目前像我們剛剛講的長芯能源這一類的污染源的未爆彈我相信非常非常多我希望大家未雨綢繆不要像我們蘇丹紅一樣"},{"start":5222.344,"end":5244.812,"text":"明明很多事件都已經知道然後等到民眾檢舉大爆發的時候再來做處理所以希望為了全民的健康請盡快落實我們SRF的審查跟管理的辦法然後檢出我們民眾的疑慮這一部分請我們部長還有同仁盡快來努力好謝謝圖委員好謝謝好謝謝我們的圖委員下一個我們的盧憲一盧委員"},{"start":5259.469,"end":5275.811,"text":"邀請部長邀請學部長還有我們的蔡林宜署長蔡署長劉恩豪我們都知道現在"},{"start":5277.179,"end":5291.087,"text":"而談會是一個比較新的議題可能在全國的國民的教育或者是學生的教育裡面可能也比較少提到這件事情或者說有再提可能他的深度沒有那麼廣那這邊有幾個問題想問"},{"start":5294.349,"end":5317.734,"text":"屬長就說我們並不是歐盟的會員國那根據巴黎的那個Article 6就是第6張文案嗎我們怎麼去取得國際的認同探全交易我們怎麼來交易你們是不是一個初步的規劃或者說取得國際的決定是不是已經有取得了"},{"start":5320.813,"end":5337.328,"text":"我們在去年的7月8號成立的探全交易所在高雄那去年的12月22號就第一筆的國外探全交易就已經推出來的"},{"start":5337.968,"end":5365.66,"text":"那大概今年應該是探險交易所也會把國內的探險去做交易那我想盧委員比較關心的就是說比如說像歐盟的西貝那這些廠商在國內將來繳探費那到底歐盟他會不會承認是不是可不可以抵換那跟盧委員報告因為西貝他本來是去年底要把執行細則"},{"start":5367.361,"end":5392.131,"text":"公布出來結果說真的也沒有公布出來但是根據他西邊的法條裡面只要你在你的國家事實上有官方的憑證你繳了碳費他們就承認就說因為這是我的主要政見裡面所以我還是要跟署長來問一些關於我們原住民的議題下一頁下一頁"},{"start":5398.581,"end":5408.867,"text":"我們都知道說大部分現在可以計算大概都是森林的嗎可以計算有從土壤的有從海洋的有從森林的那森林我知道大概是佔了80%我們下一頁"},{"start":5411.67,"end":5431.47,"text":"那森林的這個所謂的探的那個我們在我們都知道在臺灣我們原住民都居住在高山上也就是說森林的占有我們好像國有林地的大概70%左右是我們原住民的領域所以我想說你們有沒有去計算過傳統領域在這個裡面的"},{"start":5435.255,"end":5445.66,"text":"或是以後在實行探教育的時候我們原住民實際可以取得的一個所謂的利益或者說可以從中間來參與這個部分你們有沒有考量過"},{"start":5447.871,"end":5464.408,"text":"給盧委員報告事實上這個有那因為碳費的這個部分跟碳權就是這個增量額度的這一塊事實上他是跨部會所以盧委員比較關心的特別是森林的這一塊事實上是由農委會在主責"},{"start":5465.509,"end":5485.279,"text":"但是環境部是提供他們一些這個協助包括未來他們建立方法學之後必須經過環境部同意認可大概我們的目前的一個準備期注冊申請階段還有額度申請階段我們目前是在哪一個階段"},{"start":5493.832,"end":5505.149,"text":"我們從兩年前就開始要求排碳大戶就是碳排量超過2.5萬噸每年他必須去做碳盤查"},{"start":5506.391,"end":5528.472,"text":"那過去兩年這500多家事實上都有在進行的那至於中小企業以及2.5萬對以下事實上是沒有但是經濟部跟環境部一直有在輔導鼓勵他們根據環境部給他們一些簡單的公式他們事實上是可以去盤算他們大概每年產生了多少的碳"},{"start":5532.034,"end":5558.917,"text":"因為我們知道在氣候邊遷的因應法裡面我來念一次就是說政府應該與援助民族共同推動及管理援助民族地區的自然碳會對不對?是 那麼下一頁那我說我們這個在指定這個我大概畫紅色圈圈這邊我們的參與的程度到底在哪裡所以可以稍微解釋一下嗎?"},{"start":5561.897,"end":5584.385,"text":"給盧文報告就是說的確一般民眾現在對所謂森林碳會有一點誤解覺得說我有一大片森林那我大概就哇擁有很多的所謂的碳費或者碳權這個事實上不是這樣子我知道所以應該要解釋清楚它的概念是你要取得這個碳權事實上你必須是增加"},{"start":5585.563,"end":5587.424,"text":"一般的民眾是的確有一些誤覺"},{"start":5607.529,"end":5627.278,"text":"我們希望說因為我們原住民族基本上從數千年來都是跟森林生活在一起所以說我們的自然慣習我們的傳統文化都是用很為天的方式在跟大自然共存希望在這個碳的市場裡面我們原住民族不要缺席下一頁"},{"start":5629.792,"end":5630.172,"text":"好,可以"},{"start":5653.322,"end":5672.407,"text":"那我剛昨天拿了一個所謂的我們的這個是選議會的名單裡面從召集人一直到學者專家很多人可是我們沒有應該是沒有一位原住民族的委員在裡面是不是以後可以突破"},{"start":5675.056,"end":5701.053,"text":"給委員報告的確當初在考慮委員的身份並沒有去想到種族的這一塊所以因為你們這個任期是到115年的2月28號是他是一任兩年那未來對希望能再增加好嗎是可以謝謝下一頁好謝謝好沒關係再下一頁"},{"start":5702.267,"end":5726.628,"text":"那我們知道現在已經是到一個所謂的你剛才說的carbon Bank的一個概念了那他有些浮動的一些機制裡面那我來提出一些我的問題因為我也不太懂他在講什麼下一頁請你告訴我什麼叫做Unlimited Banking因為幾乎每一個方法裡面測量的方法裡面都有一個Unlimited BankingUnlimited Banking"},{"start":5734.997,"end":5760.484,"text":"幾乎每一個方法裡面都有個unlimited banking根委員報告就是國際間對於這種自願性碳市場他有一個必須要遵循的這個原則那當然他需要涉及到這個法規的外加性然後也有必須要去注意到這個對於自然生態資源的這個保護沒關係我相信你們回答到我的問題我們有空的時候我們再聊一聊謝謝"},{"start":5761.937,"end":5779.776,"text":"OK好謝謝盧委員好謝謝盧委員現在宣告事項待會林淑芬委員質詢結束之後我們休息10分鐘現在請王育民委員發言謝謝主席我們是不是有請薛部長有請薛部長"},{"start":5784.639,"end":5799.402,"text":"好黃委員好部長好好恭喜你成為首任的環境部的部長這個環境部升格是一件大事但是你們的責任也更重大了那首先呢本期就要請教在這一次的蘇丹紅事件當中我們環境部對於這一些工業原料蘇丹紅我們化學物質你們在這一次當中你們有什麼角色或你們沒有做什麼樣事情蘇丹紅是不是你們的"},{"start":5812.705,"end":5813.986,"text":"為什麼他禁止加入到任何食品?"},{"start":5834.494,"end":5862.503,"text":"因為它是在我們毒化物裡面屬於第4類的毒化物因為蘇丹色素是第4級的毒性化學物質所以它含有有毒物質貝列管對不對所以它不應該加到食物當中那本席請問你蘇丹色素它的毒性跟我們的咖啡跟我們的茶它可以類比它可以是同等級嗎"},{"start":5863.884,"end":5884.523,"text":"事實上 咖啡跟茶是你們要列管的 王委員講的那是另外一個分類 它是自然食品的分類 它是屬於第三類的 它是國際IECA的一個標準 所以這兩個事實上是不同 不應該這樣類比對不對"},{"start":5886.384,"end":5910.45,"text":"就有毒物質來講的話蘇丹色素就是有毒物質是你們列管的項目但是咖啡跟茶就不是嘛所以就不應該混為一談我想這件事情透過今天我們跟環境部的討論這個是要給外界一個很明確的訊息絕對不是像這個行政院食安辦的主任這樣子把這個魚目混珠混為一談"},{"start":5911.17,"end":5932.718,"text":"我覺得這樣子是不對的喔是就是不是就不是那蘇丹色素確確實實就是有毒的化學物質而且列為第4屆那本席要請教你關於這一次的蘇丹色素你們沒有去查我們的進口量竟然是你列管嘛齁他的進口量還有他的流向你們這一次有沒有去強化去稽查"},{"start":5933.078,"end":5941.401,"text":"有給網友報告事實上我們都去查了進口總共去年事實上是有39筆由世家來進口進口量才101克"},{"start":5947.756,"end":5972.169,"text":"其中使用量是41克使用到哪些方面去實驗室或者一些染色劑所以都沒有加到在臺灣都沒有把蘇丹設施加到食品或者其他的部分這邊跟委員報告事實上自從石安魯環環境部負責化學營化學營是10個部會53個系統都在那裡面是"},{"start":5975.931,"end":5992.789,"text":"自從那個建立之後是台灣就沒有再發生化工顏料加到食品的系統性的案子這一次當然蘇丹紅的案子事實上是在境外他是把他蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面變成"},{"start":5994.298,"end":5994.779,"text":"我希望環境部要把這一塊守好"},{"start":6015.979,"end":6032.983,"text":"但是呢本席發現還有一個漏洞是什麼沒有在你們的毒性化學物質的管理但是他是工業用料有可能還是流向食品比如說2015年發生的這個在胡椒粉當中加入工業用的碳酸鎂那碳酸鎂現在是不是在你們的管制的範圍"},{"start":6039.581,"end":6062.438,"text":"報告委員這一部分其實我們在陸陸續續公告到這一塊的時候我們有特別討論過那這一塊就是說它跟那個合法的食品添加物是同品項就是合法食品添加物也有碳酸酶那如果它身份上沒有去取得衛福部的許可的話它就不是合法食品添加物但是東西是一樣"},{"start":6063.519,"end":6071.831,"text":"對東西講所以我們的管理面啊就從經濟部經濟部這邊他也會有申報是啊我們會去勾結說這些會不會留到實名上"},{"start":6072.864,"end":6101.09,"text":"你們現在有在管理嗎有在勾結嗎這個就是本席要求的因為我發現這個之前爆發過食安風暴這些工業原料因為他毒性沒有到達你的管制範圍但是這一類卻又變成是最可能就是被業者拿來添加的所以本席的要求就是你們一定要互相勾結因為現在我們這些食品產生的問題真的是風險就在於說如果主管機關你沒有互相勾結有漏洞那"},{"start":6102.23,"end":6116.618,"text":"有一些不良業者有動他就鑽他就有機可乘他就會違法因為工業原料都是比較便宜的食品節都比較貴他就從當中去賺他的利差所以本期要求這個部分你們一定還要持續強化好不好"},{"start":6117.859,"end":6138.904,"text":"守護我們的食安這個環境部也有相對的責任另外一個本期要關心的是有關於SRF的議題我想我們圖圈級委員也非常的關心他剛剛也有質詢那這個議題本期就看到了我們現在所有的管制作為坦白講非常的鬆散所以之前才會爆發以經濟部為主導他認為可以增加我們的發電量然後呢我們可以"},{"start":6145.106,"end":6166.073,"text":"社然後呢經濟部就一直往前設結果環境部好像沒有辦法去阻止經濟部比如說以桃園的案例來看的話他其實就是他是先長後奏啊居民完全沒有任何可以說部的權利那在部會之間好像環境部你也沒有辦法去要求他"},{"start":6166.963,"end":6184.906,"text":"那他都不用做評估嗎比如說在桃科他附近一公里然後就是有民眾這麼密集的區他想要連蓋三場那這樣子的東西都不需要把關只要經濟部說很好增加我們的發電量那我們就往前衝是這樣子嗎部長"},{"start":6185.988,"end":6200.161,"text":"我給網友報告,事實上不全然是經濟部是目的事業主管機關,縣市政府,可是環境部是負責環評的工作,但是開發單位"},{"start":6202.103,"end":6223.115,"text":"事實上縣市政府也可能是開發單位比如說以桃園桃科這個案例事實上桃園市政府他是開發單位他進駐的是在他整個桃科園區裡面所以事實上桃園市政府他是有權利去決定包括要不要核發他的許可證"},{"start":6223.915,"end":6245.063,"text":"對所以桃園我們也看到嗎好前任市長鄭文燦市長他就贊成嗎就合法到張善任市長他就不同意第三場那所以前後任市長態度就不一致那在中央呢中央的這個呃環境部可以幫人民做什麼樣的把關因為我覺得這個srf他的發電廠之前被爆發就是他排放出來的"},{"start":6245.723,"end":6246.184,"text":"對外說你們要開始公告這個更嚴謹的作業辦法"},{"start":6265.982,"end":6281.107,"text":"防火源報告以往環境部對SRF基本上是從末端管制你只管他排放出來有沒有但前面都已經燒了我們現在修法就是要把SRF做產品的分類"},{"start":6282.247,"end":6307.438,"text":"從源頭就開始分類對於不適合當SRF材料就要把它剔除掉所以未來的產品端能夠做源頭控管之後我相信後端再使用就可以減少沒錯本期要要求就是你前端的這個源頭控管其實是最重要的你前端源頭的控管你7月曾經公告就是三項的修正草案"},{"start":6308.098,"end":6336.689,"text":"那你這三項的修正草案包括公司場所固定污染源要什麼符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料然後公司場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例成分標準還有鍋爐空氣污染排放標準三項的修正草案你是要來管制它排放的大躍進但是這個部分你公告之後有開始上路了嗎公告之後有一段時間已經一段時間了去年7月"},{"start":6338.38,"end":6354.073,"text":"過半年了還沒有上路跟委員報告一下在去年預告那個因為之後現在那個SRF在分期所以我們會再加嚴那加嚴目前的進度就是上半年會預告那下半年會把這個辦法出來"},{"start":6354.713,"end":6370.181,"text":"所以還要再拖一年欸不是拖我們現在重點就是說在管制的過程呢除了原先的那個排放標準加嚴之外呢我們污染防事設備根據材料的不同會有一些規範這跟去年預告版本不一樣所以需要一點時間"},{"start":6372.362,"end":6386.728,"text":"我希望這一個部分要加快速度另外一個就是說你重新公告之後那以前舊廠已經設的這一些你要怎麼去輔導他們他可能就不符合你的標準我們給他一段時間去改善設施那之後就要按照新的法規來執行"},{"start":6387.628,"end":6407.399,"text":"好因為我發現現在你們對於SF製造商的這個管制一個是鬆散一個是你看這個網站上公告的資料就是也是有點哩哩啦啦就是自己填然後很多其實都是空白所以這個部分我要求一定要加嚴管制因為"},{"start":6409,"end":6431.341,"text":"國外可以做得到的我相信我們臺灣也可以做得到但我們不能做半套或者是做的事不像然後明為是好的再生能源發電廠但結果排放出來可是對於整個環境又造成第二度的傷害這個是絕對不允許的那我希望這個部長你新上任你用你的專業跟你的魄力把這一塊好好的整頓起來"},{"start":6432.102,"end":6448.87,"text":"然後讓這個SRF他將來真的是既可以發電又可以幫助我們做部分的減碳那這個才是真正的目標好不好好謝謝王委員謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝王委員接下來我們邀請那個王振旭委員發言謝謝主席有請薛部長薛部長"},{"start":6463.766,"end":6470.661,"text":"好 王委員好部長好恭喜您擔任首屆的環境部部長謝謝"},{"start":6473.928,"end":6496.823,"text":"其實我們也都知道目前不論是一般的廢棄物或者是事業廢棄物國內處理這些廢棄物的量能都相當的緊繃不敢說嚴重不足不過至少非常緊繃所以如何能夠提升再利用率落實這個循環永續我認為這是一個非常重要的議題"},{"start":6498.533,"end":6505.799,"text":"那本期來自醫界是所以呢就特別關注這個醫療事業廢棄物的處理問題那我們發現啦在3年前2021年的時候有針對於這個醫療廢棄物處理的費用"},{"start":6517.208,"end":6543.373,"text":"在短時間裡面被大量調高的問題那我們也瞭解根據審計部的審查結果因為這個生物醫療廢棄物處理的成本相對是比一般廢棄物還要高10倍到20倍那個時候南投醫師工會就發現說有一個地區醫院被環保公司在處理的過程當中很短的時間漲價了4倍"},{"start":6545.673,"end":6556.885,"text":"從原來每公噸7000元變成破了兩萬塊齁那這個是一個短時間很大的衝擊那我們很擔心的就是透過這種"},{"start":6559.234,"end":6581.153,"text":"護膽成本增加以後那會不會為了要緊縮這些廢棄物的使用所以呢就會讓這個成本希望能夠緊縮之下造成了這個醫療品質的下降那這部分未來萬一又有同樣狀況發生的時候那不知道環境部學部長這邊有沒有哪一些因應的措施"},{"start":6582.336,"end":6596.653,"text":"我想因為那個是發生在20212011年那我們剛剛賴署長也跟我反映說事實上環境部那時候是環保署事實上也有下去協助那我個人覺得就是說"},{"start":6597.834,"end":6614.68,"text":"現在的醫療院所的確在經營上也是相當的挑戰那特別處理醫療會期務這一塊他的單價也的確比較高那假如同剛剛王委員剛剛所提到的突然之間一下漲那麼高我個人覺得是比較"},{"start":6615.64,"end":6635.742,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6636.158,"end":6665.581,"text":"那我們實際上的各個醫療院所報出來大概是3100多噸而已啦所以事實上量能來講事實上是足夠的是是不過如果依照部長您所說的這個處理量我們看下一張的資料我們可以發現其實廢棄物目前齁目前的量還是會遠超過您所提到的"},{"start":6666.121,"end":6681.019,"text":"因為依據看到的數據是每一年會有11萬餘噸的這些醫療廢棄物可是目前的利用率只有21%所以這部分好像有一些落差我們很期待說如果能夠有更"},{"start":6683.941,"end":6708.332,"text":"對於未來貴婦提供這些量的處理還可以再加強那為什麼這個廢棄物的使用回收率利用率會下降我想我們了解一個很重要的原因之一呢就是第一時間沒有做有效的分類回收那我們也了解其實臨場現場的這些醫療工作人員要做這些"},{"start":6710.663,"end":6736.268,"text":"市民會計務的分類回收面臨相當的困難而且他有些時間上的壓力所以如果能夠有效的利用一些方法來改善這個第一時間的分類的話相對應該是可以節省人力那同時又可以創造回收率所以針對一才的結構或者是才子進行創新讓這個回收的方便性提高的話"},{"start":6737.428,"end":6752.795,"text":"這一部分不知道環境部部長這邊有沒有可以做鼓勵或輔導業者來進行這方面的創新。好謝謝王委員的關心的確包括在上一個會期也有人提到在這個醫療領域的確在ESG在這一塊"},{"start":6757.077,"end":6780.243,"text":"外部來講在過去比較沒有啊這個一例去處理這一塊那環境部在一月十幾這一塊特別是啊資源的回收再利用啊以及啊進行排放這一塊我們事實上是啊這個有很多的資源也可以去應用然後那所以我也這個回應黃委員就是說這一塊我們跟衛福部"},{"start":6781.223,"end":6805.278,"text":"來密切合作希望再資源回收利用這一塊可以更進一步來精進因為我們現在跟衛福部在推動包括醫療院所來進行ESG推動的這一塊所以我想謝謝王委員你特別重視這一塊那我覺得這一塊環境部未來應該可以跟衛福部那來共同來"},{"start":6806.258,"end":6806.438,"text":"主席"},{"start":6822.924,"end":6843.833,"text":"太原前立委針對於醫療體系的永續發展非常關心這個議題所以他在去年也發表相關的文章期待醫療體系對溫室氣體排放的影響能夠再多盡一份心力因為依據統計我們發現醫療部門碳排放占全球"},{"start":6844.933,"end":6873.396,"text":"整體全球的醫療部門對於全球淨排放的這個比例高到4.4%那臺灣相較之下是還高於國際平均值從4.4變成4.6那一年會創造差不多20億噸的二氧化碳所以這個部門這部分其實醫療部門相對於對全球的碳排放也需要負一些責任那這部分"},{"start":6875.057,"end":6890.907,"text":"覺得醫療院所有沒有在進行哪一方面的改善措施部長您所瞭解跟王委員報告就我所知道因為上會期很多委員都關心這個議題那衛福部的薛部長事上他也對這個委員來報告說他們會"},{"start":6894.509,"end":6918.493,"text":"要求特別是醫學中心等級的他有領頭羊的效果他們應該未來在年度的報告裡邊要把ESG的這一塊納進去包括去盤點醫院碳排的部分以及能源的使用效率的提升事實上是非常重要我覺得這一塊可能是醫療院所可以馬上來進行的部分"},{"start":6919.253,"end":6942.891,"text":"所以若實ESG的永續發展應該是目前國家的重大政策是那我們看一下如果這個醫學中心要配合相關的發展的話那我們可以從他的這個五大任務裡面去做哪一些的要求我們可以看到在最後一項配合國家政策來肩負社會公益責任那未來環境部"},{"start":6943.852,"end":6953.746,"text":"除了剛剛所提到的以外那有沒有更好的這個角色可以來加強或者是如何能夠讓兩個部會之間有更好的合作關係"},{"start":6955.578,"end":6982.47,"text":"有關這個近鄰排放的這一塊喔事實上我們的氣候變遷署事實上有提供一些輔導跟支援的措施我們國家環境研究院也有做一些人才的培育我們的資料顯示的確醫療院所去參與包括近鄰排放的課程的人數真的是比較少那我們也很希望說這些醫學中心的"},{"start":6984.111,"end":7002.91,"text":"主責人員應該可以跟環境部來聯繫環境部來提供包括做人才的培訓讓他變成我們未來醫療中心的一個總製把這個近年排放的概念推展到整個醫療院所的每個角落"},{"start":7004.257,"end":7024.045,"text":"主席,我可不可以再多兩分鐘,謝謝。其實我們也知道目前根據剛剛這個部長的說明,其實在醫學中心往下看就可以了解,很多的醫學中心都執行走在很前面,不管是臺大,馬街"},{"start":7026.192,"end":7052.767,"text":"或者是星光甚至是長庚體系事實上都做了非常多相關的這方面的要求那也希望從永續發展的部分進一份的這個社會責任那我們再來看最後的一部分空污問題我相信剛剛已經有很多的委員也請教過部長那針對空污問題因為我來自一屆"},{"start":7054.048,"end":7081.708,"text":"也知道癌症對國人的影響空污問題如果能夠有機會做更好的處理的話可以減少這個癌症的發生肺癌是很重要因素所以空污問題所造成的問題我們很希望環境部這邊能夠更有效的來處理那包括剛剛盧委員有提到這個開發行為引起這個空污的部分如何能夠在修法的過程裡面"},{"start":7082.808,"end":7101.458,"text":"而針對於這些底範的原則能夠更周延也期待部長這邊針對這個各地的需求再做多做考量以上好謝謝我們會來努力謝謝王委員接下來有請我們的那個林淑芬林委員"},{"start":7115.205,"end":7119.047,"text":"我們有請林德夫委員謝謝主席也謝謝林淑香林委員"},{"start":7139.989,"end":7148.049,"text":"是不是我們請環境部的部長 薛部長林委員好"},{"start":7149.864,"end":7178.244,"text":"學部長我請問你因為環保團體一直認為說固體再生燃料SRF原料還有毒燴氣物燃燒會製造有害的健康的空污這個招環團的批評是假綠能請問環境部推動固體的再生燃料SRF轉燴為能將燴氣物燃料化的政策目標"},{"start":7179.605,"end":7200.737,"text":"你們會不會改變阿?跟林委員報告齁我們已經積極在進行了對阿不行就要改變阿你不能讓它繼續存在阿已經把它視為產品所以從產品的角度來做分類那產品就會歸換到這個顏料裡面不可以含有那些"},{"start":7201.757,"end":7229.884,"text":"因為確實這是有問題的啦因為過往曾發生過知名的這些廠商空污排放的數據造假那也有公家單位資源回收廠技工勾結一些不肖的業者直入特定的電腦程式來短報這個廢棄物的重量這些案子都是利用儲管機關疏於對後端整個監測電腦的數據查核才讓不法人士能夠得逞"},{"start":7231.224,"end":7252.165,"text":"那請問環境部如何要求燃燒SRF的業者符合相關這個空污排放的標準地方稽查人力適否有沒有充足如何去落實輔導避免這些業者造假在電腦數據裡面來動手腳適否動用這個空污基金等等那你有什麼看法"},{"start":7253.966,"end":7282.154,"text":"委員報告吼的確剛剛委員所提到的一些問題我們也發現到了所以從去年我們就開始來研擬修改整個SRF包括它的製造跟未來使用SRF排放標準的一個改變那以往事實上是沒有去做SRF產品的分類所以的確會讓業者吼裡面甚至有夾雜著一些"},{"start":7282.774,"end":7311.632,"text":"所以說那些稽查的工作很重要好不好那個這一次新北深耕火災因為這個燒毀了大量這個鋰電池的產品引發惡臭而且有環保團體一直認為說環保機關能夠全面性的檢討火災這些空氣的品質的監測項目如戴歐鑫等等那請問環境部是否會檢討調整這個空氣品質嚴重惡化警告來發布及緊急防治的辦法"},{"start":7312.591,"end":7329.749,"text":"跟委員報告深坑發生這個不幸的火災事件那根據當時包括周遭環境的空氣品質的監測事實上他是沒有超過這個污染的排放標準"},{"start":7331.531,"end":7341.624,"text":"但是因為惡臭的味道影響了很多的居民所以整個晚上幾乎都不能睡覺那這裡面當然是一個科學上的挑戰你們應該要弄一個管理的機制啦"},{"start":7350.154,"end":7366.697,"text":"那會後提供書面資料給本席好不好最後一題2050年淨民排碳的目標已經訂出後交通部表示說2025年電動公車的占比要達到35%那環境部的空污基金113年度計畫編列差不多5億來補助這些業者購買電動公車以提高電動公車的普及率"},{"start":7375.759,"end":7391.971,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7392.171,"end":7417.516,"text":"跟交通部好好的合作以提高這些業者購買電動公車的意願早日達成淨零排碳的目標好謝謝好不好給林委員報告那個我們跟交通部的分工是這樣子啊汰換電動車的這一塊由交通部負責營運以及基礎設施的建設是環境部來負責好啦你們分工要把它做好啦好不好謝謝好謝謝林委員好謝謝"},{"start":7421.288,"end":7424.63,"text":"主席各位大家早安是不是再請我們薛部長薛部長"},{"start":7445.18,"end":7458.012,"text":"部長您剛才的業務報告裡面談到我們要二法合一當然法合一你們現在宣告的草案裡面有幾個地方我們是不能接受的第一個就是我們資在法這個"},{"start":7459.113,"end":7481.283,"text":"而草案的第三條將廢清法本來第二條第一項的廢棄物的定義改成這個廢棄資源那廢棄跟資源本身當然是一種矛盾但我們比較擔心的是你現在沒有廢棄物但純粹都只有廢棄資源這樣的概念他也沒有辦法真正的涵蓋到已經失去完全沒有任何效用的廢棄物然後"},{"start":7483.624,"end":7486.706,"text":"在這個裡面我們還講說你要把廢棄物循環在利用的狀況裡面其實要達到這個目的要淋廢棄最重要的並不是改這個名詞而已其實還要它治理原則法律架構還有這個執法上法制面執行面通通都要可行"},{"start":7502.979,"end":7511.284,"text":"而且這才是最重要的再來就是說再利用我們講再利用因為我們通常講說最終處置部長我們講的最終處置一般都是講燒掉然後掩埋相對於燒掉和掩埋我們進入循環使用當中所以"},{"start":7521.971,"end":7538.166,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7538.406,"end":7562.713,"text":"我們對於你燃料化裡面最典型大家今天很多人問的就是SRF那我們希望這個循環再利用的重點不是放在廢轉能我們在講再生能源的定義裡面這個絕對不允許當成是再生能源即便是歐盟裡面歐盟的文件講到我們不管是天然的再生能源或者是這個生質能"},{"start":7564.854,"end":7585.707,"text":"一般都講的是工業和生活廢棄物中生物可分解的部分生物可分解的物質像紙類、儲物與動植物、殘骸、有機物所以在歐盟的標準裡面SRF如果你含有塑膠、橡膠、石化產品燒出來的電絕對不能認為是再生能源"},{"start":7586.647,"end":7601.137,"text":"我們是希望這一點也要採注但是你們現在修法的重點將廢轉能放入資源循環再利用的母法當中而且你們明文在第12、45條的草案裡面草案45條將事業再利用的廢棄資源作為固體再生燃料放入規定當中就是SRF那你們在立法說明欄裡面你們講說我們為了推動廢棄資源循環零廢棄"},{"start":7616.607,"end":7621.129,"text":"所以將非有害釋然性的廢棄物經分選及存化後轉制為固體再生燃料為了避免外界執以假SRF之名形分化之時造成環境污染這個是你們說明的我覺得這一段也蠻好笑的因為這個好像是此地無銀三百兩"},{"start":7638.999,"end":7651.093,"text":"環境部把不符合這個淨零碳排區市也不符合資源循環政策且其原料都是來自石油的SRF當成減煤淨零資源循環的解方明顯的沒有把"},{"start":7658.161,"end":7673.047,"text":"你也是要收掉那跟你要進入真正的循環利用的這個把廢棄資源當成資源的這樣的看待的這個東西是剛好相反的所以"},{"start":7674.602,"end":7698.515,"text":"我才說此地無飲三百兩很容易讓人家覺得假SRF之名形焚化之實你們是為了避免不要讓人家這麼以為可是剛好人家就是這麼以為那很多年前我也質詢過SR當我三年以前還在這個委員會的時候我也談過SRF的事情但是部長你還沒有來SRF環境部"},{"start":7701.112,"end":7707.599,"text":"當時 到現在我看起來也差不多啦 老不早雖然你覺得不太認同你認為你已經來做一點改革了但我們今天要再談 環境部這個國家其實最大的問題是都在幫產業界幫事業單位擦屁股"},{"start":7717.57,"end":7744.056,"text":"環境部本來是要把關產業界和事業單位的可是呢事業單位我們沒有總量管制的概念我們沒有對台灣這塊土地能夠有的capacity那個叫什麼含容量做出這個評估而無限制的一直生產生產生產以爐渣為例以你的文化爐底渣為例以其他的事業這個生產為例你們就是沒有辦法解決這一些廢棄物怎麼辦那大家"},{"start":7747.438,"end":7751.122,"text":"就把SRF當成解決廢棄物的這個問題當然不是解決我上面講的那一些問題不是爐渣抵渣當然還有所謂的廢輪胎的問題廢塑膠的問題然後等等那這種SRF的固體燃料產品"},{"start":7764.175,"end":7785.652,"text":"現在的問題就是品質太差沒有市場我們以前就提過水分太高含氯量太高SRF的品質不穩定會造成人家使用者拿去當燃料燒的人設備會壞掉固體再生燃料的品質跟歐盟和鄰近日本韓國相比其實是非常的寬鬆的部長我記一下"},{"start":7789.415,"end":7814.197,"text":"人家你在強迫的這個技術裡面你們這個SRF啊收受的廢棄物種類非常多卻沒有具體建議應該採行的相對應的處理技術比如說能夠篩選出含氯塑膠含氯的有機物質的這個光學分選機不在你們標準配備裡面是不是"},{"start":7815.222,"end":7843.567,"text":"是不是?那你沒有辦法在你標準配備裡面你沒有辦法篩出這個韓綠的你知道韓綠的塑膠燒出來會造成什麼污染嗎?包括耐耗鋅等等一些耐耗鋅沒錯對啊你都知道所以你們知道的方法你們是把韓綠標準齁把他標準小於3就可以的韓國是要小於2歐盟是要小於0.2"},{"start":7844.947,"end":7845.948,"text":"林委員報告,事實上林委員剛剛所談到的這些問題的確以前都存在"},{"start":7868.413,"end":7882.171,"text":"但是我們就是已經也發現這個問題所以從去年我上任之後就開始已經來你告訴我你怎麼講你剛講在固體污染源的監測上你的監測標準要更高嘛對不對是我們的"},{"start":7883.353,"end":7884.834,"text":"對阿那你前端怎麼做對你前端怎麼改"},{"start":7910.985,"end":7926.644,"text":"我現在問你你有沒有對應的英彩型的處理技術的規範你連光學分選機你都沒有再來我們未來因為要從SF從產品做分類了那產品做分類"},{"start":7928.265,"end":7937.01,"text":"這裏製造商他就必須要能夠去分類說這個塑膠裏面你沒有規範啊有有現在要進行嘛你的規範沒有啊你說你要去現刊試車的時候要看那個都是末端的那我要問你現行的裏面SRF的品質規範有1500噸採樣一次但是呢"},{"start":7949.096,"end":7963.127,"text":"也沒有規定採樣要留存記錄也不需要上傳給你們看你們主管機關也不用追蹤也不用控管然後再利用以前也沒有再驗一次所以違反了你們的事業費契約清理計畫書審查作業參考指引的內容有罰則嗎"},{"start":7967.05,"end":7987.579,"text":"給委員報告有罰則嗎就是說現在在推動的在修改的就會朝著我們要的方向啦所以目前都還沒有嘛那我再問你你們有訂出如果真的要將SRF這種固體廢棄物燃料的這個SRF要當成真正的產品你有訂出CNS的國家標準嗎我想我們CNS當然"},{"start":7991.84,"end":8021.44,"text":"那個國家的標準可能還是必須經過這個商檢期他們那邊所以你們也沒有CNS國家標準你們現行的管理制度有很大的漏洞還有很多的缺失然後現在照你們狀況我們的熱淨值的要求是等同歐盟的倒數第二類的SRF的品質遠低於韓國跟日本在綠含量在拱含量也是很低的標準那你們說要改我們也不知道你要改成什麼樣子"},{"start":8024.52,"end":8042.864,"text":"所以以這樣子的管理模式及產品標準不就證實了說其實你們是以燃料化之名做成燃料以燃料化之名行焚化之實我要舉一個例子其實我們去看歐洲SRF人家都主要都在處理什麼主要在處理什麼歐洲為什麼SRF這種產品主要處理什麼"},{"start":8054.565,"end":8071.98,"text":"主要人家都是在處理家戶垃圾固體垃圾啦主要因為歐洲沒有像我們亞洲蓋這麼多的焚化爐所以他們其實是處理生活垃圾為大宗"},{"start":8073.263,"end":8089.215,"text":"主要喔!所以我們主要因為我們的焚化的很多所以生活 Less本來就是理所當然焚化掉人家是還要再精緻的分選然後再加工品質注意好再去焚化我們是直接燒而台灣的SRF主要是處理什麼事業廢棄物"},{"start":8093.606,"end":8115.591,"text":"那因為瑞典我舉一個那個人家媒體報導過的梅拉倫發電廠產出的SRF他有3條來自芬蘭BMH公司的前處理設備要做有機物篩選把人用人的眼睛看不出來的人工看不出來的有機物完全篩選出來然後此選然後把金屬非金屬再分出來"},{"start":8116.411,"end":8139.823,"text":"然後要用這個光學儀器偵測塑膠材質分選不合格的含慮多的燒出來會有代號新的不能放進去即便那麼花錢去買廢棄物那些廢棄物都買來的但是不符合標準就不燒你看你們的許可裡面你們連這個公告為一定要回收的這些塑膠"},{"start":8141.331,"end":8167.496,"text":"所謂你們現在這麼多年二三十年幾十年來公告應回收的塑膠你們都把它當成SRF的燃料我們就有點訝異說你們PET PE PLA等等這些不是才是真正需要進入循環使用裡面的reuse然後recycle就是要變成真正的再利用嗎結果你把它鼓勵成你把它燒掉做成燃料去燒掉"},{"start":8168.616,"end":8192.954,"text":"那他根本沒有符合你的再利用裡面最核心的不是燒掉燒掉是不得燃料化也是不得已的你應該是要變成循環使用變成原料變成材料結果你現在把公告應回收的廢棄物PETPEPPPS其他塑膠BLA全部當成這個公告可作為這個SRF"},{"start":8193.855,"end":8209.034,"text":"所以你們的這一些支援循環零廢氣把SRF還當成是綠能廢轉能沒有將真正的這個東西可以循環使用的我講"},{"start":8210.496,"end":8235.733,"text":"PETPEPP還可以再循環使用你還鼓勵他把它燒掉那個事實上本來就可以再回收啊對啊可是你們胖在可以做成SRF不就鼓勵燒掉嗎那我現在在講喔抱歉主席因為我們大家這麼重要的二法合一的政策然後我們的時間開會早早就結束然後我們也不能在這裡繼續質詢我覺得是蠻可惜的"},{"start":8238.095,"end":8244.76,"text":"而且更何況他們現在是以燃料化之名是不是人家質疑的以燃料化之名行焚化之實以田地之名行掩埋之實以前要焚化焚化爐的把關有多嚴格的機制要掩埋有多嚴格的機制結果現在是為了服務產業界解決他們的廢棄物問題我們假裝一個SRF假裝再利用的田地結果把關的機制相對是寬鬆掉"},{"start":8267.415,"end":8283.581,"text":"所以這倒退路啊我們希望整個環境的這個污染的把關環境廢棄物的管理是真正能夠進入循環使用當中結果這個改革221的改革如果沒有好的品質沒有好的管理是倒退路的"},{"start":8284.481,"end":8292.967,"text":"我們至少去真正研埋真正分化還是高度把關的啊那個林委員這一塊我們會來檢討啦好不好我們需要的是不是檢討是不是跟那個林委員溝通說明好不好他應該跟全國人民溝通說明啊所以我們必須在講燃料化田地也是最後的手段他不能"},{"start":8305.835,"end":8330.291,"text":"假田地和假燃料化行掩埋和焚化之時真的要嚴格的管制才是最正確的那我在最後講一點其實你們的這個版本二法合一的版本裡面第9條明定了中央主管機關和目的事業主管機關的權責第9條的第一項第二款還明定了訂定資源循環促進廢棄資源的源頭減量相關法規標準和規範事宜"},{"start":8335.655,"end":8341.402,"text":"我們都知道這個循環利用當然最核心要源頭減量所有可用的要盡量的循環再利用然後盡量源頭減量讓有限的資源不要浪費所以源頭減量也是二法合一的"},{"start":8352.236,"end":8364.909,"text":"循環利用的核心價值可是整部法就只有這一句話有提到源頭減量其他通通都沒有源頭減量的方案和政策也沒有跨部會的合作推動源頭減量其實是應該更具體的"},{"start":8368.092,"end":8390.63,"text":"你也要有設計一個蘿蔔跟棒子你們草案第25條的規範的製造輸入販賣業者的綠色設計準則其實你也應該可以有配套相關的獎勵措施如這個複稅減免來鼓勵這個業者這個綠色設計以外要源頭減量啊蘿蔔棒子通通都要放進去所以這個我們在這裡語重心長"},{"start":8392.871,"end":8421.031,"text":"我們看到外國有SRF我們也來做SRF可是SRF你沒有管好那就是以燃料化為名行焚化之實但是管制的更寬鬆如果你的在利用田地行為在利用產品在利用規範管制的不好那麼就是以這個田地的名義來行掩埋的這個事實但是呢這樣子是不行的"},{"start":8424.281,"end":8426.025,"text":"謝謝林淑芬委員我們先休息10分鐘"},{"start":9041.445,"end":9055.682,"text":"好繼續開會接下來請鄭天才委員主席各位委員有請部長請學部長"},{"start":9061.035,"end":9088.528,"text":"好 政委好部長好今天特別要請部長環境部針對蘇花安計畫的環評我們先看這個蘇花改蘇花改在民國97年11月10號行政院核定同意台九縣蘇花改的"},{"start":9090.182,"end":9109.079,"text":"可行性的研究。民國99年11月9號兩年就完成的環境影響評估的審查。兩年。我們訪觀這個樹花案,我要特別跟部長講,跟環境部的同仁講,"},{"start":9110.966,"end":9133.457,"text":"蘇花改它的難度更高先做比較困難的蘇花改蘇花安是相對來講是它的難度是比較低的我們看這個蘇花安這個計畫行政院108年核定可行性研究108年現在已經113年還沒有完成環評"},{"start":9140.491,"end":9164.251,"text":"這個是我們公路總局的一個針對舒華安他是東澳到南澳和平到河中河人到崇德這幾個路段好我們看這個公路總局的一個資料108年12月20號核定可行性評估現在辦理原來預計111年環評審查的程序"},{"start":9170.612,"end":9197.128,"text":"所以一百一十一年然後希望一百一十二年完成就是跟過去已經是差很多了一零八就核定了到現在才還在做可行性的還在做環評所以這個部分我們看這個整個期程要跟舒華安難度更高的反而拖這麼久"},{"start":9199.935,"end":9227.666,"text":"所以這個部分從10812月20號可行性研究核定然後公路總局交通部原來預估的是112年要完成環評但是現在被卡關了環評出審這個卡關這個部長你是不是同仁可以說明一下卡關的原因"},{"start":9228.783,"end":9235.073,"text":"好那政委我是不是請我們這個環保司的蔡司長來說明一下整個情況"},{"start":9237.766,"end":9264.187,"text":"跟委員報告這個案子是去年11月21號交通部才把環評的這個俗件送到環境部來去年是12月去年的11月那我們在就如同剛剛委員在畫面上看到了在2月20號我們進行了初審那初審裡面比較關切的大概三個主要有三個議題第一個是"},{"start":9265.288,"end":9283.486,"text":"沿線的山崩地滑的這些的評估那還要再比較詳細的去提出第二個是原民所謂原住民部落的諮商我們所瞭解其中好像還有兩個部落那個原住民的諮商還沒有完成那這個部分那個公路局他會去進行"},{"start":9284.187,"end":9300.876,"text":"那第三個部分是有關的這個在這個路線裡面有經過太魯閣國家公園那所以有涉及到一些生態的敏感區這些所謂的深入的這些的措施希望公路總局再來詳細的補充大概這三個主要問題"},{"start":9303.444,"end":9328.14,"text":"有關我過去也執行過前任的環保署署長到底還平先還是原住民族部落諮商同意先你們一直強調當時一直強調就是還平先沒有什麼先話所以這個部分有關部落諮商同意絕對要辦但是因為這不涉及到你們的業務所以"},{"start":9331.881,"end":9354.647,"text":"環評這個階段不必去談這個所以你們要跟那個環評的委員要告訴他們這是第一個第二個這個難度比舒華改還簡單還容易就拖那麼久所以這個部分你們要設法說服設法說服這些不是說說明啦不要說說明說明清楚"},{"start":9360.609,"end":9388.911,"text":"曾經哈我以前是老公務員哈30年公務員101年開始當立委地球公民基金會我就跟他們談他們以前都反對反對我就告訴他蘇花公路樓長寸斷一下雨小小的雨喔就坍方我說這是你們害的如果當初蘇花公路高速公路你們不卡的話"},{"start":9390.379,"end":9413.201,"text":"成全日本時代本來要抒發公路喔高速公路喔抒發高速公路喔就是因為環評不環保團體我就舉什麼例子呢就舉北回鐵路對不對北回鐵路大颱風大地震都沒有怎麼樣啊這個才是真正的環保啊"},{"start":9414.717,"end":9441.411,"text":"所以這個部分要去說明清楚他自己講的那個剛剛那個司長沒有提到有的環評委員說那個因為那個高價高價你就給他看那個南回南回公務都高價啦現在對不對現在的科技都可以解決環境保護而且更能"},{"start":9443.19,"end":9447.854,"text":"更有環保好不好好我們來努力謝謝鄭天才委員接下來請陳冠廷委員我們請部長請薛部長"},{"start":9471.502,"end":9481.952,"text":"陳維好部長好部長你應該知道今年的4月22號是我們的世界地球日那你知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":9483.956,"end":9501.404,"text":"檢索沒錯是地球與塑膠那其實剛才前一位委員也有針對這個檢索的部分來做出一些評論那我要提醒就是說巴黎協定裡面最重要的國際環境公約裡面全球塑膠公約已經是有第三輪的談判"},{"start":9502.685,"end":9529.746,"text":"那在年底我相信就可能會有結論出爐那是全球的第一個是針對減數做出有法律效率的國際協定那2040年他的目標是60%可是我們攤開數據發現每年政府投入的減量經費大概是在1億元上下是低於末端處理的經費我想請問部長我們目前政策宣示要源頭減量"},{"start":9530.987,"end":9538.84,"text":"但是經費不足我是懷疑要怎麼樣把2030年減量到13.8萬度原生塑膠的真正目標是不是可以請部長簡單說明一下"},{"start":9539.947,"end":9567.765,"text":"事實上減速這個大方向是臺灣一定要做的我本來也跟我們同仁提到說今年的世界地球日我們就是應該呼應到聯合國在今年年底應該剛剛成文剛講到這一塊應該要減速這個議題但是因為我們的整個產業發展以及我們的民生的習慣各位可以看到我們基本上現在的礦泉水都還用塑膠"},{"start":9569.066,"end":9594.812,"text":"憑在裝人家國外特別是歐盟歐洲很多國家事實上都用玻璃杯他比較容易在回收嗎吼那所以這一塊我覺得事實上臺灣還有蠻大的一個努力的空間啊對因為我是看過去的20多年來長期以來我們都是用用價以價值量的方式作為手段可是我認為說除了懲罰之外獎勵機制獎勵機制的配套弱勢我認為是源頭呃減速的一個關鍵啊你看我們從"},{"start":9598.533,"end":9622.294,"text":"一八年到二零二四從我們這個資料來這個綠色和平組織裡面的這個他的這個建議書裡面有提到那我們看到說這個經費的差距分別從17倍到63倍那其實是差很多的與其說在行為端上面做改變如果在源頭上面就可以處理的話我相信效益會更好因為我看每一次我們"},{"start":9622.995,"end":9645.112,"text":"主要都針對都是以消費者為導向可是你如果從生產者作為導向做一些原料上面的列舉那有什麼樣的方式可以在經費上面是可以協助他們的我相信這個都是可以幫助到那這一次的支柱法的第7章他是有民電指出就是這個資源環境促進的第7章有明確指出有輔導跟獎勵"},{"start":9646.733,"end":9671.107,"text":"部長在新法上路之前的空中期我可不可以看到黃金部可以提出更主動及其的獎勵辦法這一點我們來努力因為的確這個減速是一個迫在眉睫的議題特別是塑膠違例對整體也有傷害那台灣在使用塑膠的這一塊事實上真的是有一點點"},{"start":9672.468,"end":9700.78,"text":"國度所以我們現在在推包括這個一次性的塑膠基本上我們就是來禁止但是也碰到一些挑戰因為包括在傳統市場在其他的一些場合他是比較屬於跟民生相關那假如大眾沒有來共同配合事實上推動挑戰度是還蠻大特別是傳統市場的這一塊"},{"start":9701.687,"end":9720.199,"text":"對我還是希望就是說部長在提出這種方式的時候也是提出對岸就是說我們不要說因為不方便所以說民眾配合度低那你就提出對岸那民眾覺得說我們同時可以做出友善環境的事情但是同時也能夠符合民眾的便利性好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝陳委員好謝謝好謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":9736.127,"end":9752.302,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請薛部長請薛部長好黃偉豪來部長好部長明天我們會開這個所謂的碳費審議會那新聞報導說最快有可能3月底就會公佈碳費的費率有那麼樂觀嗎"},{"start":9754.708,"end":9774.261,"text":"我看明天他們委員會之間溝通情況怎麼樣但總是有一個時間表需要什麼時候碳費要出來吧我們原先的規劃是希望能夠在3月底啦對阿3月底如果現在整個大環境也做了一些改變齁什麼樣的大環境做改變我覺得環境部也有責任"},{"start":9775.468,"end":9793.783,"text":"去納進去考量包括包括像歐盟他本身的西本執行細節事實上去年底也沒有出來美國本來的CCA法案事實上本來也是去年底要出來那有考量到國內的物價嗎對我剛剛講是國外接下來是國內的國內當然我們也看到說經濟部電價這個調整的委員會也很可能會在4月份"},{"start":9804.652,"end":9817.006,"text":"還有包括我們的化石產業石化產業也因為過去這一段日子以來事實上整個中國他的經濟遭受很大的挑戰所以他很多的包括化石鋼鐵產品"},{"start":9819.108,"end":9841.409,"text":"必須要低價傾銷到國際去所以對國內事實上可能ECFA的一些企業也會受到一些影響所以中整國內外都有一些轉變但是我們還是期待說能夠如期來進行包括碳費的執法我們推動從來沒有停過不會因為說現在是看守內閣"},{"start":9850.916,"end":9871.59,"text":"委員會一定會有這個方向嗎會看是說我們主管機關的一個方向那你剛也提到是說經濟部有可能在4月的時候會來調整電價調漲電價那怕會是怕影響到產業的這個成本上升是不是是那但是明年我們當初有講是說是什麼時候開始收收這個碳費"},{"start":9872.39,"end":9896.477,"text":"他的概念基本上類似所得罪的概念嘛 是今年的是明年講對就是費率今年本來預計是3月底要出來然後之後就開始要明年就開始要受今年的攤費嘛 是是不是 是所以那現在我們講比較直接啦部長你剛剛這樣子繞繞了半天我還是聽不太懂所以意思是什麼意思是我們上半年度到底會不會因為本來是3月底嘛"},{"start":9896.977,"end":9906.542,"text":"好那你現在講是說有可能考量到這個電價調漲的部分那4月可是你總是醜媳婦要見公婆啊所以到底什麼時候有一個時間表"},{"start":9908.235,"end":9925.823,"text":"我們的時間表本來是3月底但是這個就是我希望明天探討委員會他們開完會明天應該是處理兩塊一個是時間什麼時候出來嗎那一個是探費的費率嘛是對不對那從一開始我們那時候討論是說有可能是這個一公噸從那個時候有講到100塊500塊到現在還有環保團體講說3000塊對不對那急劇"},{"start":9937.029,"end":9956.736,"text":"這不是笑欸部長這很嚴肅的問題是很嚴肅我們要共同面對啊我知道因為既然2050淨零碳牌我們也已經講出來了氣候變遷印法也在去年我們大家一起努力推動了那現在這個就是棒子跟蘿蔔要拿出來啊是政策工具要出來不過跟黃委員報告吼事實上"},{"start":9957.916,"end":9978.764,"text":"大家會聚焦在碳費事實上對環境部而言我們一直強調我們是要減碳比碳費的徵收更重要碳費徵收他只是一個工具所以這裡面就是如何把配套措施包括各個事業單位他自主減量這個才是我們的重點"},{"start":9979.484,"end":9998.799,"text":"本席可以理解就像很多經濟部他也會講是說看這個電價調漲才會讓大家去珍惜用電當然你這樣講合不合理這見仁見智可是本席現在要確認的是說這畢竟是我們環境部這裡會提出來的一個方案所以到底時間表"},{"start":10001.488,"end":10011.027,"text":"時間表基本上我們是規劃三月底但是執行那如果說真的會有延宕延宕一個月"},{"start":10012.507,"end":10040.647,"text":"兩個月520前能不能確認事實上這個也是另外一個聲音嘛就如同洪委員我們之前在立案總執行的時候也有一些委員覺得說現在的看守內閣什麼都不可以去做那這個不是看守內閣不能做是重大決策不應該現在去做但是這一個部分碳稅碳費的部分是之前就已經核定那你當然要有時間表出來啊"},{"start":10041.027,"end":10064.109,"text":"是我們的時間表是沒有變啦但是剛剛講事實上因為碳費的決定會影響到未來幾年的執行特別是企業他必須要做一些因應所以在這邊才講所以你這樣講好那本期再請教那個現在賴清德總統當選人有沒有跟你徵詢過要不要續留環境部部長"},{"start":10066.239,"end":10089.077,"text":"我在任內一天我就是好好把我的工作做好有沒有徵詢過啊因為你剛剛這樣講的感覺好像是你隨時打包要走人所以說520前你也不敢做重大決定還是你想把這個碳費的這個攤子丟給下一個環境部長對啦這個洪文你放心好了我們應該做的事情我不放心因為你的態度讓我沒有很放心啊"},{"start":10090.831,"end":10092.793,"text":"所以560之前會不會出來我尊重攤位委員會他們的決定但你的時間表"},{"start":10102.042,"end":10123.272,"text":"我的時間表就之前講我們基本上規劃是希望3月底但是來部長那個主席站起來我最後再一個問題那另外你這個沒有辦法回答時間表那我想請教另外一個部分啊蘇丹紅的食安部分那現在您早上也有打詢的時候你有講是說跟咖啡跟茶等自然風險列同等級是絕對沒有辦法接受這樣說法"},{"start":10124.092,"end":10125.234,"text":"那我們現在有看到說﹖"},{"start":10141.482,"end":10143.044,"text":"但是你可以接受說蘇丹紅跟咖啡還有茶"},{"start":10160.385,"end":10187.693,"text":"是同等級的東西嗎是不是應該沒辦法吧不然以後大家開會一杯茶一杯咖啡一杯蘇丹紅因為不會吧我只是要問一個問題因為你剛剛又岔題了我只是說現在有看到食安署食藥署跟環境部要研議57項的食安風險疑慮的化學物質列出高風險的物質請教何時會公佈"},{"start":10188.533,"end":10192.694,"text":"接下來請羅廷偉委員我先在這邊做一個宣告在楊瓊英委員發言結束處理臨時提案"},{"start":10216.769,"end":10241.363,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長請學部長好各位好校長好校長第一次被自己的學生質詢是嗎我的榮幸好希望我們就民生議題能夠實事求是的一個回答好部長想跟請問一下你認為光害對人體有傷害嗎當然有"},{"start":10242.159,"end":10269.022,"text":"好那我就直接切中話題我覺得目前看到的問題是台灣目前沒有針對光害的一個相關法令我看到環境部2020年有做一個光汙染的管理指引每年約有300餘件的一個陳情案件到現在我看到你的計劃每年約有700餘件的一個光害相關的一個陳情案件現行有關光害防治的法規分散在各個主管機關我們看到"},{"start":10269.662,"end":10297.87,"text":"包括招牌廣告樹立廣告有所謂的內政部招牌廣告及樹立廣告的管理辦法還有一個內政部市區道路的附屬工程設計規範還有車輛燈光的一個交通部車輛安全檢測基準以及建築物玻璃反光內政部有一個建築技術規則建築法的管理建築外牆槍窗戶屋頂等相關的玻璃反光其實我看到各個機關都有類似這樣子但是總而言之"},{"start":10298.731,"end":10300.417,"text":"這些法規針對不同的公害"},{"start":10301.363,"end":10329.254,"text":"已經做一個客觀的規範有些地方制定了光害防治的自治條例但缺乏了全面性的一個具體能夠去把他們做一個法則我覺得這樣子的一個缺乏相應的法則使得光害防治在地方上有存在一定的混亂跟不完善我想請問一下部長環境部能不能盤點這些光源的類型並針對各個類型的光源所造成的光汙染"},{"start":10330.194,"end":10332.401,"text":"制定管理規範及解決方案"},{"start":10333.845,"end":10362.091,"text":"跟羅文報告我覺得這一塊可以來做因為的確現在民眾反應有關關害事實上是蠻多的本席在自己的選區也遇到很多這樣子的一個問題那最近不管是青梅成品相關的一個問題還有很多霓虹燈你有看過那種檳榔攤它的霓虹燈晚上是非常非常的亮眼造成住戶這樣子無法去睡眠我覺得這些問題已經形成了很"},{"start":10362.731,"end":10370.584,"text":"多的一個陳情案件我想部長跟你請問一下有可能法治化嗎如果可以的話可不可以給本席一個具體的時間表"},{"start":10373.976,"end":10392.396,"text":"光害就如同之前我們在推動噪音管制一樣不同階段那只要民眾反映他覺得充斥在我們的生活環境當中已經造成包括對身體跟個人的生活各方面的部長我具體問你520前您可以送出一個草案嗎"},{"start":10393.673,"end":10405.472,"text":"520前我想大概時間上沒有辦法因為他涵蓋面好那我先不探討到底520之後您會不會在我希望繼續存在您會擔部長但520如果今年度還在的話您可以在今年度提出一個版本嗎"},{"start":10407.374,"end":10427.194,"text":"謝謝羅委員不過這個假設性的問題我們就不要在這邊談不管我們在這個位置我想我們的同仁都會繼續請你督促同仁在今年度務必能夠繳出這一個版本出來讓我們的所有全民全國國體的國人都很希望有這樣子的一個關愛污染防治法這部分可以嗎"},{"start":10430.617,"end":10448.776,"text":"我們在今年年初的1月4號發布一個光汙染管理指引的第二版本那我想這個讓我們實施了一段時間然後再回頭檢討這個同時呢我們在做這個光汙染的那個檢測沒關係我們會再討論啦但是你的報告自己就有講每年澄清案件700多件"},{"start":10450.698,"end":10458.19,"text":"這事實就是證明有這樣子的需求我希望你能夠具體面對這個需求回應國人的需要那再來我想看一下泡泡影你看這個東西齁"},{"start":10459.909,"end":10486.398,"text":"部長我想跟您請問一下你現在全國共設置210套的聲音照相設備未來要增加到306套我覺得抓草不抓改但是目前就這樣306套114年要共同完成我覺得這是不夠的那再來您看這個新聞現在最新最新的他不是在做所謂的噪音管制的部分我們看到以往都是在這個排氣管"},{"start":10487.498,"end":10514.681,"text":"是他現在直接在他的行李箱汽車後座裡面直接把他的這個氣門改裝氣門他藏在這個後座椅墊下然後他把他的後座都挖洞讓他容易排聲音出來您看這一個金屬環的部分這就是最新的一個改裝他用這樣子的方式不容易藏在他的內體裡面不是在排氣管上你不容易發現我想"},{"start":10515.682,"end":10533.139,"text":"現在環境部應該就現在實施的一個改裝品我們應該本公司的檢討去因應未來年輕人這樣子的一個改裝品造成的一個噪音所以我現在點出問題部長您可不可以給我一個回應就現在我點出這個社會實施問題可不可以馬上來做一個演繹"},{"start":10534.465,"end":10542.129,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們還是維持那個抓草不抓改這就是草100分貝108分貝所以如果有草的我們會是我們這邊來取代我要講的是我們都是從源頭開始處理"},{"start":10550.433,"end":10569.382,"text":"那現在已經不是排氣管了還有這個氣門的問題我們應該要做這樣子的一個認證擴大這些有可能造成噪音的一個相關改裝品的一個認證這是我要的一個具體的一個行為部長您可以回應我嗎馬上做滾動式的檢討來做規範好嗎可以嗎好部長謝謝"},{"start":10579.943,"end":10597.406,"text":"好謝謝羅委員接下來請楊瓊英委員謝謝主席楊瓊英發言想邀請部長跟謝署長化學學部長"},{"start":10600.626,"end":10624.097,"text":"好,楊委員好是,部長好,校長部長好那這個我們知道食品非法的添加蘇丹紅是現在重大的食安事故那從懷疑這個紅色的辣椒粉安全性到多種原料混合咖啡粉到後來消費者自己也害怕了連呢"},{"start":10624.377,"end":10645.282,"text":"．"},{"start":10645.362,"end":10665.935,"text":"也造成了合法供應商呢或者是餐飲業的一個損失對不對所以就管控的問題產生這樣的問題所以本席要請教部長這是不是我們的化學物質管理漏洞呢你的源頭管理為什麼會這麼失靈呢後續你要怎麼樣去補強這個源頭的管理請做總統這個標題事實上是這個不妥啦因為"},{"start":10674.44,"end":10678.261,"text":"怎麼會不妥呢?人家都已經預行信啊你沒有資格去批評這個反質詢說這個標語同不同而是你要去說明你要用你的內容去告訴民眾你要怎麼樣放心他已經預防性的下架你還直接講這個本席要邀請你上來是要聽你專業的立場好嗎?本來就失靈嘛才會產生這預防性的下架嘛對不對?"},{"start":10702.768,"end":10703.148,"text":"國內並沒有系統性把"},{"start":10732.671,"end":10749.804,"text":"議員．"},{"start":10750.389,"end":10771.983,"text":"我們基本上在這一塊事實上在化學營料的部分給食藥署告訴他們說過去這一年來進口的蘇丹色素有39家那這39家都取得環境部化學署裡面的運作的一個合格"},{"start":10772.703,"end":10798.494,"text":"那他們總共呢去年才進口101克使用才41克所以並沒有留到去做食品添加物的這一塊哇布達你這麼回答讓我們更緊張了市面上已經產生這樣的現象那政府的主管機關單位告訴我們是沒有的那他是從哪裡掉下來的呢那個是辣椒粉從中國製造"},{"start":10800.687,"end":10815.801,"text":"應到臺灣來所以事實上是在海關把關在去年的時候他抽驗從20%開始一直拉到去年底就百分之百去檢驗這個部分我們也給另外一個學部長去討論過"},{"start":10817.142,"end":10833.029,"text":" ．"},{"start":10833.429,"end":10848.357,"text":"當一個政府它的橫向組織是必須是嚴密的要怎麼樣以專業的立場去告訴民眾這個安心這是我們今天質詢的重點所以本期要跟你討論的也就是從112年8月底57種的食安儀律化學物質當中還有20種對不對那個謝署長還有20種你沒有辦法以物質"},{"start":10857.501,"end":10883.996,"text":"以物質法的方式去納管那你現在是用正部列管或者是暫緩列管或者是回歸衛福部去管嗎是不是如此請做說明跟委員報告就是我們一直陸陸續續把它檢討用獨安法公告現在還有20種還有20種20種這裡其實本來就有在經濟部那邊就這些廠商要跟他們申報所以這些還是有申報資料所以我們化學院這邊會把它框進來"},{"start":10885.057,"end":10907.459,"text":"然後呢因為這個裡面又有這個17項是跟食品添加物是同品項的其實他東西是一樣只是他身份不是你現在講到重點了這個部長這個你們的署長好他講到重點了也就是人民已經碰到困難那政府各部門要怎樣去橫向去聯繫所以因此我要告訴部長"},{"start":10908.3,"end":10930.938,"text":"我們目前符合列管的初衷我相信大家都希望把它做好同意也辛苦但是問題我們產生的這個問題呢也就是出了問題就說欸督促業主自主管理啊但是我覺得這樣政府不對你應該有權利你就要去執行之你也認同所以因此你整個化學物質的流向"},{"start":10931.678,"end":10954.88,"text":"除存標示跟販賣他還有20項他目前是沒有聚在你的法律約束裡頭所以在這樣的情況之下會有漏洞所以本期希望57種裡頭我們目前還有20種還沒有納進來你們再去討論可以怎麼樣因為你如果從源頭我們才會安心啊好不好"},{"start":10955.761,"end":10977.032,"text":"你把你們去討論的結果告訴本席最後一個議題我給你功課你順便資料給本席就好歐洲議會跟歐盟理事會在2022年的12月13號他已經達成共識2023年10月1號開始要實施探邊境的調整機制也就是CPA"},{"start":10977.972,"end":10979.053,"text":"在歐盟部分我們是以鋼鐵業為主喔那螺絲帽"},{"start":11006.874,"end":11007.055,"text":"一旦"},{"start":11028.772,"end":11056.77,"text":"一旦他課的時候那麼我方要怎麼樣跟國際接軌我們環境部雖然腳程慢了一點我們還是願意希望你們明天要開會要趕快要趕快因為人家都已經拿出時間點了我們還不知道我的足跡在哪裡我要怎麼課對不對所以我給你這個功課我會繼續追你把你們明天開會預計要怎麼做怎麼協助我們的中小企業"},{"start":11058.192,"end":11060.574,"text":"臨時提案第1案 碳備費率審議會設置要點第9條"},{"start":11075.331,"end":11104.53,"text":"碳費考量因素條文中除溫室氣體排放量以及減量等環境因素外僅有意該掛性質之其他相關因素並於條文說明表示包含經濟影響評估為依據時過於籠統草率原此要求環境部緊速修訂該要點明定消費者物價指數CPI或相關經濟指標為審議因素以其確保穩定民生物價提案人委員陳金輝蘇清泉圖全吉"},{"start":11105.253,"end":11116.275,"text":"第二案經查目前環境部資源循環署資源回收處理衍生廢棄物煤核去化平台提供之srf製造廠名單中僅有兩家業者提供srf檢測報告顯示環境部未能要求業者落實srf採樣及檢測原因要求環境部於一個月內將針對srf製造廠之稽查輔導專案計劃執行狀況"},{"start":11131.298,"end":11145.506,"text":"以及加強落實SRF採樣及檢測之具體策進作為向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王玉敏徒全及陳金輝盧憲一第三案環境部雖於112年預告修正"},{"start":11147.867,"end":11162.956,"text":"公司場所固定污染源因符合混燒比例及成分標準之燃料公司場所固定污染源燃料混燒比例及成分標準及鍋爐空氣污染物排放標準三項修正草案僅為後端污染管控"},{"start":11163.496,"end":11184.505,"text":"人缺乏前端設置設場實質管理措施且三項修正草案目前仍未正式公告施行為強化我國對SRF製造廠及發電廠之管制度及標準原要求環境部於一個月內提出相關標準建置及修正之具體時程並會同經濟部針對SRF製造廠及發電廠研擬完善設置標準及準則向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":11192.648,"end":11209.216,"text":"提案人委員王玉敏徒泉及陳金輝盧憲一第4案據全國空污據全國空氣污染排放清澈資料顯示平東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於臨近縣市空氣品質不良的天數常居全國第一"},{"start":11209.876,"end":11232.81,"text":"約有三分之一的污染源來自高雄但屏東所分配的空污防治費卻遠低於高雄為減緩屏東居民健康威脅與改善生活環境原要求環境部於一個月內研議提高屏東補助標準與高雄相同向立法院社會及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉圖泉及陳金輝第5案"},{"start":11235.592,"end":11256.282,"text":"平東縣各項原生空氣污染排放量皆低於鄰近縣市來自高雄地區上峰處的污染埋源是造成平東空氣品質不良主因空污細小微粒進入到人體後會隨血液四處擴散累積因此血液通過的心臟腦部許多疾病都已證實與空污高度相關"},{"start":11257.783,"end":11283.811,"text":"議事葉光鵬研究空污與復科及病毒乳癌有絕對關係為預防屏東居民面臨健康威脅原要求環境部於一個月內研議補助涉及屏東居民全身健康檢查經費向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告提案人委員蘇清泉、屠泉及陳金輝宣讀完畢請問第一案行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":11285.502,"end":11312.331,"text":"有的第一案剛剛已經跟3位委員討論過我們把我看一下2 4 6把第8行第8列把那個但環境部過往公告進行以一直到這個90控制物價調漲整個把它劃掉"},{"start":11317.68,"end":11321.503,"text":"倒數後面一二三四五"},{"start":11333.663,"end":11363.049,"text":"第5行的後面時過於濃統草率整個劃掉然後且未能改成應明確立定審議委員會那後面一樣那下一行就變成原始然後提案要求劃掉寫成改成請原始請環境部"},{"start":11364.605,"end":11381.576,"text":"接下來話調一直到消費者物價指數CPI就是這個我再念一下原始請環境部將消費者物價指數CPI括弧或相關經濟指標納為審議因素"},{"start":11387.02,"end":11412.603,"text":"以其期待的日期的期以其確保穩定民生物價是否有當然後敬請公決大概就這樣子那請問提案委員有沒有意見主席我們剛有溝通我是可以接受但是多方思考定價因多方思考還有"},{"start":11413.744,"end":11434.853,"text":"這個都是他們自己發布的新聞稿裡面的內容所以我還是希望在明天你們開審議會這個討論費率的重點因為目前你們列出的重點幾乎都是跟你們的專業還有科學相關的但是這個民生經濟最關心的這些希望你如同你之前的新聞稿一樣把它列進去謝謝好"},{"start":11436.886,"end":11463.821,"text":"好的在執行面我們事實上的確會跟委員講請他們多方面來思考不要只單純只考慮碳費啦我剛剛也講過事實上我們應該通盤去考量國內其他各個因素我們的目標是減碳這個是最重要的目標而不是收碳費這個才是我們的精髓好謝謝那我們就照文字修正通過好謝謝好謝謝那第二案"},{"start":11465.949,"end":11487.396,"text":"請問行政單位有沒有意見跟委員報告那第二段的部分我們建議做一些文字修正就是在第一段第一段後面就是顯示環境部會能要求業者落實一到最後難以發揮那這兩段刪掉那請問提案委員剛剛有跟委員溝通過王委員不在那圖全級委員"},{"start":11496.206,"end":11507.343,"text":"喔好那還是我們先往下就是那"},{"start":11512.079,"end":11527,"text":"那我們先討論第三案等一下再回過頭來第二案吼那第三案呃行政單位有沒有意見是那跟這個呃主席報告就是我們呃建議有做文件修正就是在第一段第一段的呃倒數第三行吼"},{"start":11527.975,"end":11555.642,"text":"皆缺乏有效管理措施改為應加強管理措施另外就是在第二段倒數第三行就是先要求環境部於這個三個月內提出相關排放標準修正之具體時程並會同經濟部針對SF製造廠及發電廠研擬那修正文字變成研擬管理機制向立法院社會委員來提出書面報告"},{"start":11556.857,"end":11573.394,"text":"好那請問第三案提案委員有沒有意見好謝謝主席那針對這部分應該是要求環境部於一個月內提出相關修正"},{"start":11574.437,"end":11601.469,"text":"後支排放標準不是不是排放標準又再修正後的具體時程因為一個月就要你提出的不用再討論具體時程應該就是直接提出修正後支排放標準你等於一個月一個月內提出修正排放標準不好意思我們會先預告"},{"start":11603.454,"end":11613.261,"text":"提出來是預告的版本一個月內提出修正因為你現在已經有排放標準只是我要你們修正後之排放標準不是說叫你修正後之具體時程"},{"start":11628.409,"end":11649.964,"text":"對不是時程因為已經講好一個月嘛就等於要在一個月內提出修正或是排放標準那你針對後面管理機制時間上有問題是嗎管理機制一個月來不及是嗎對管理機制是不是可以3個月"},{"start":11652.577,"end":11663.955,"text":"三個月可以再早一點嗎兩個月可以可以好那是不是請行政單位針對剛剛修正文字的部分是不是念一遍好不好是好"},{"start":11667.385,"end":11683.53,"text":"在第3案的部分第一段後段修正為及後段管制標準因而落實管理措施那在第二段的部分在倒數第4行先要求環境部於一個月內"},{"start":11686.604,"end":11703.491,"text":"提出排放標準提出相關的修正後的排放標準並會同經濟部針對SRF製造產業發電廠於3個月內於2個月內研擬管理機制向立法院社安委員提出書面報告好那這一部分"},{"start":11716.212,"end":11739.7,"text":"那這部分更改的部分是上面你說接缺法改需加強是不是是是然後再來就是一個月內提出修正之排放標準修正之標準草案修正之標準草案然後再來就是研擬完善管理機制兩個月內提出"},{"start":11741.937,"end":11766.868,"text":"好那針對文字修正的部分徒委員可以嗎好好那就照文字修正通過好那我們先是不是再回到第二案好不好剛剛第二案的部分徒委員第二案呢呃就是我我們是建議文字修正之在第二段的後面兩句話呃就是呃顯示環境未然落實還有呃品質管控難以發揮這兩句話建議刪除"},{"start":11770.526,"end":11775.999,"text":"可以嗎好那就照文字修正通過好那接下來第4案"},{"start":11782.919,"end":11798.066,"text":"第4案提案倒數第二行研議改善空氣污染之作法向立法院社福及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告那蘇委員是不是有意見"},{"start":11810.306,"end":11825.885,"text":"謝謝主席第4案第5案都有牽連我這邊要再三強調就是環境部本身自己越來越多的經費你們是執政我們是在野所以你怎麼贏"},{"start":11826.966,"end":11827.106,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11845.717,"end":11868.852,"text":"恭喜能量恭喜電力給中北部一點公平性都沒有所以我剛才跟處長溝通的結果我們是希望能夠落實啦你要用研究案你要補助案你要怎麼做我都尊重但是要落實我一定盯得緊緊的好不好"},{"start":11875.796,"end":11902.384,"text":"好那是不是可以好就照文字修正通過嗎好好那第4案就照呃文字修正通過那第5案是那呃報告主席第5案這邊再倒數第二段就是呃的後段呃婦產科權威等等的這到結束這邊呃剛剛委員辦公室這邊就這段刪掉啊這就到了好那再來第最後一段呃在的後面研議"},{"start":11903.752,"end":11925.297,"text":"免弱族群就改成免弱族群室內空氣品質改善強化向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告大概就這樣的文字修正好那蘇委員可以那第5案也照文字修正通過好那接下來我們開始質詢"},{"start":11927.659,"end":11935.795,"text":"這個臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員不在接下來請黃仁委員"},{"start":11955.005,"end":11958.27,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":11962.447,"end":11986.405,"text":"這一天蘭嶼的廢料之爭臺灣原住民的憤怒與反抗到現在依此是存在著政府對於蘭嶼的核能廢料的這個從未經過當地蘭嶼達務組的同意多年來他們持續的向政府抗議到現在仍然的進行所以本席強調蘭嶼"},{"start":11988.607,"end":11996.885,"text":"和能廢料儲存廠拆除抗疫還在抗爭中不過現在所延伸出來的問題"},{"start":11998.823,"end":12027.414,"text":"已經數十年了因為核能廢料儲存廠他還是有外洩到整個污染延伸到哪裡臺東的東海岸線有八個鄉鎮包含長濱鄉成功鎮北南鄉大武鄉太馬里鄉東河鄉達仁鄉臺東市等鄉鎮嚴重污染當地的環境衛生"},{"start":12030.236,"end":12047.581,"text":"因此本席認為政府應該運用來以核能廢料儲存場使用原住民保留地補助這個這個損失的補助基金總共有25.5億以提出生態保育計畫將補助擴及到移植到臺灣海岸線的八個鄉鎮的海岸"},{"start":12060.385,"end":12087.874,"text":"依據環境基本法的第24條應積極採用各種措施保護海洋環境強化海洋的管理那另外這個本席要求部長環境部應該在行政院上提出週期包含涉及的經濟部和研論會等跨部會工作小組會議競速核定"},{"start":12090.795,"end":12106.82,"text":"本席所提出的生態保育復育計畫的政策希望能夠在一個月內向本席說明及報告的狀況另外本席以部長討論的這個立島的嚴重污染問題"},{"start":12108.84,"end":12134.467,"text":"在112年12月1號臺東的綠島鄉右直湖海岸線大量的重油污染這個不知的傳知在臺東花蓮陸續發現油污染的這個清澈海岸變成了黑色漣漪那另外"},{"start":12138.243,"end":12146.948,"text":"你看一下這個圖片非常的污染根據你們的環境基本法第二條第三項"},{"start":12150.479,"end":12174.807,"text":"水系於以任何形式存在之地面水及地下水海洋液包括在內施地系於動物植物油氣地環境之一屬於自然生態系統的環境之一另外在環境部業務報告在第69項指出"},{"start":12177.328,"end":12202.874,"text":"自力減少露燃廢棄物污染海洋所以在這個地方特別要跟部長來討論這個問題政府已啟動衛星與無人機檢測追查但是到現在查不出來至於近日已經超過三個月乃未找到這個元兇"},{"start":12204.094,"end":12226.347,"text":"所以我們環境部業務報告22項指出海洋每一寸的土地都要乾淨而且立即清緊急清所以在這個地方針對台東核能廢料及綠島鄉幼稚園海岸中污染案"},{"start":12229.386,"end":12257.195,"text":"這段時間不作為的海洋沒有作為的海洋二度的污染成為海洋的噩夢本席要求政府成立一個專案小組而非一直放著讓污染侵蝕台東的海岸線所以部長盡數在一個月內提出這個檢討報告包含蘭嶼儲存場的核能廢料影響到整個東海岸"},{"start":12258.749,"end":12282.585,"text":"可以不可以跟委員報告一下就是說剛剛委員所提的兩件事情第一個是有關核廢料的部分那事實上是以前的研能會現在的核安會他們的主持所以你們雙向溝通雙向溝通好不好對那我們可以來跟核安會那第二個案子是海委會負責海洋的污染那環境部事實上是向海致敬我們有一個海岸垃圾"},{"start":12289.29,"end":12293.575,"text":"謝謝黃委員接下來請顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員顏寬恒委員不在接下來請牛許廷委員"},{"start":12317.391,"end":12318.896,"text":"謝謝主席我們等一下投影片謝謝這個環境部長有請謝謝請學部長"},{"start":12324.537,"end":12346.973,"text":"好 牛委員好部長午安今天要針對大火公害案來提出質詢最近這一段時間倉儲的大火數量是非常多的而且造成民眾的困擾其實是比想像中要嚴重很多這最典型的例子當然是發生在本席的選區桃園第一選區2022年3月10日盧竹的美孚倉儲大火"},{"start":12349.875,"end":12379.315,"text":"那過了幾天之後這我們土委員的選區啊這楊梅家樂福物流中心也大火你看短短幾天就兩場那最近的新北的泰山工廠大火這個PC Home林口倉庫倉庫的大火到這個去年9月屏東名陽這個是打火弟兄也犧牲了倉儲大火然後一直到最近大家印象非常深刻應該是最近2月20號這個深坑的光電鋰電池倉儲場大火這些大火其實都除了造成火災本身的災損之外也造成了非常嚴重的公害"},{"start":12380.337,"end":12384.17,"text":"但是部長知不知道這些公害最後有沒有被嚴格的處分?"},{"start":12385.319,"end":12410.168,"text":"啊這公害當檢察官有介入調查只要他違反相關的法令一定會受到這個懲罰好您說的真好對不對公害如果受到了調查而且清除之後會受到懲罰我跟部長就在這裡報告我實在覺得這件事情匪夷所思啊你知道美孚大火那個惡臭啊整整持續了快要三個月"},{"start":12410.848,"end":12438.294,"text":"火災本身的惡臭接近3個禮拜後續腐肉的惡臭持續了3個月但是這些造成嚴重污染異味對爐主的鄉親造成衝擊最後的結論竟然只能重罰6000塊這件事本身就是一件很奇怪的事情因為今天時間有限我就不多鋪陳我直接來做說明這樣子的案子在公害發生的時候當然第一時間我們會思考以空氣污染防治法的角度來進行開罰但部長知道是用哪一條來開罰嗎"},{"start":12440.368,"end":12454.175,"text":"條文我當然沒有辦法記得但是基本上只要發生任何這個火災我們有一個環境事故處理對都會按照法條我跟部長講開罰的法條就是空污法第32條"},{"start":12455.476,"end":12474.293,"text":"那第32條講什麼叫管理不當產生自然那裡面法條詳細叫堆置管理不當產生自然那這個當然這個產業的角度他就會說我這個又不是堆置不當我是電氣因素啊我是電線走火啊就奇奇怪怪的理由就來了那你就法論法的過程之中好像還真的"},{"start":12475.814,"end":12497.744,"text":"好像還這法條好像還真的不太夠完備啊所以到了最後就是明明可以重罰500萬然後最後都被訴願撤銷然後到最後只剩不痛不癢那種法條可以罰到就變成重罰6000塊本席認為這件事情是非常荒唐而且非常誇張的那為什麼追根究底為什麼我們用32條開法因為我後來仔細的看了一下如果你不用32條開法你連開法的法條都沒有啊"},{"start":12500.285,"end":12508.711,"text":"我們針對這種火災造成的公害我們從來沒有對產業刻以任何的責任這是這個案子背後的通案問題部長你要回答一下嗎二臭這種概念事實上對執法"},{"start":12515.655,"end":12518.638,"text":"但是法條的部分是我今天要強調的我們該有修法了吧"},{"start":12540.719,"end":12564.998,"text":"以每幅倉儲為例有兩條很重要要修第一條就是32條的管理不當的範圍我們應該要有具體的檢討除了堆置之外是不是有操作的問題電器的問題要把它納入不要讓這些東西成為法律的漏網之魚第二個是廢棄物清理啊因為它那個腐肉放在那個地方發臭廢棄物清理的時候很遺憾我們環保這個倉儲業務並不是廢清法指定的公告事業"},{"start":12565.718,"end":12590.865,"text":"所以你也沒有辦法用相對嚴格的費清法的角度來對他進行管理開罰這些都是公案背後的法律漏洞本期希望今天把這題目打開然後這個希望環境部針對這樣子的案例倉促大火的這樣子的案例去做法規修正的研理報告然後我們來長期來做追蹤看看能不能從法制面制度面來完善這樣子的困境不要讓公害再困擾人民部長同樣方向嗎"},{"start":12591.645,"end":12597.229,"text":"那就請你回去做研議好嗎我們持續來追蹤可以嗎OK好辛苦了謝謝好謝謝呃牛委員接下來請羅志強委員有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12621.647,"end":12638.88,"text":"好羅恩好我要延續牛許廷委員的問題我想請教一下這個薛部長您是住在台北嗎我來自台中所以您住的地方在哪在這個台北市對台北"},{"start":12639.844,"end":12654.268,"text":"我跟你講我的選區是大安區但我現在住在那個文山區可是你知道最近新北的那個深坑的大火他又燒出一個很嚴重的問題就是"},{"start":12656.209,"end":12679.262,"text":"我們在所謂的空氣污染的那個警報的系統之上是似乎跟民眾的感覺有很大的落差那我自己其實當天就聞到很濃的臭味了那我們大安區選民也聞到很濃的臭味但我想請問這個部長你知道那天的空氣的空瓶的監測的狀況如何"},{"start":12681.667,"end":12702.62,"text":"那一天除了短暫有超過這個PM2.5有超過達到66個μg之外其他我們所來自臺北市環保局以及我們環境部自己的監測的數據事實上都沒有超標"},{"start":12704.521,"end":12726.687,"text":"這個齁其實就是第一個民怨的一個所在啊而且很多人都覺得不舒服甚至到醫院去了可是在我們的所謂的汙染指標上卻好像好像是只有短暫現象給羅文報告就是說這個也是我們現在經過這一次事實上之前也有談到啦這種所謂的惡臭"},{"start":12728.24,"end":12731.144,"text":"再一個問題其實這個事情我還不是這一次經歷剛剛劉許廷委員講那個盧竹的火災"},{"start":12745.695,"end":12766.353,"text":"那個美孚倉儲的火災我自己就到現場去了5次我自己到現場去了5次我跟這個部長報告我真的覺得當地居民幾乎是活不下去的你知道嗎那個臭味你沒有到身離其境我去5次我到最後一次政府宣稱火滅了我再去那還是臭到不得了"},{"start":12767.332,"end":12785.15,"text":"真的前面是所謂的那個火災的那種所謂的一些燒焦物的焦臭到最後就是跟你家堆了100隻死老鼠一樣的那個臭味可是我想請教一下那個時候我們的政府對於這樣的一個狀況有什麼處置措施"},{"start":12785.922,"end":12785.942,"text":"我這樣說齁"},{"start":12808.425,"end":12827.483,"text":"原來的剛剛就講就是說這個臭味的這個定義現在就是還沒有辦法有一個非常科學我們能夠來判斷然後才發布這些我跟要不跟部長說第一個就是我們的空品的一個跟民眾的感受落差很大這第一個問題"},{"start":12828.624,"end":12840.775,"text":"第二問題其實就剛剛牛許廷委員講的就是說實際上對這些造勢的廠商的我們的所謂的處罰的罰則那你現在最後結果鬧得那麼沸沸揚揚美孚的倉儲大火最後罰6000塊你覺得民眾能接受這個結果嗎"},{"start":12847.181,"end":12873.577,"text":"所以中間的漏洞我覺得環境部有責任要把這個處罰的缺口補起來因為你沒有一個相應的處罰的機制的話你就沒有約束力當然最後一個就是我覺得通報的那個做法可能也要再檢討一下因為實際上我的選區確實很多的民眾是抱怨說根本就很多通報的機制是不夠迅速及時"},{"start":12874.597,"end":12881.783,"text":"所以大家會聞到臭味才知道發生什麼事以上好我們來檢討好謝謝羅委員接下來請邱志維委員邱志維委員邱志維委員不在接下來請羅明才委員"},{"start":12899.498,"end":12921.821,"text":"羅明財委員羅明財委員不在接下來請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在接下來請陳昭芝委員好謝謝主席有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":12925.289,"end":12949.196,"text":"部長好今天彰化有一些鄉親不少鄉親都這個金鼎焚化爐開發現場做抗議部長您曉不曉得這件事情好像是今天嗎是今天就是此時此刻那這個開發案因為當初居民是反對的縣政府也反對很重要的在選情的時候總統府秘書長林佳龍也到現場承諾政府會停止這個開發案"},{"start":12950.396,"end":12962.628,"text":"但是選後開發廠商又開始辦說明會應要這個新建請問環境部這件事管還是不管給陳文報告這個案子事實上是在兩年前"},{"start":12963.84,"end":12986.159,"text":"就經過環境部那時候環保署的環評環評通過在兩年前當初在環評裡面有規定經營綠能公司他在動工以前必須召開民眾的公聽會就是說因為有一些我知道你的程序也許完成但是有一些政治承諾嘛"},{"start":12986.499,"end":12993.324,"text":"是那你民眾會相信這個看到政治承諾那是不是部長你就是請環境部再下去跟這個"},{"start":12995.314,"end":13014.819,"text":"再下去做一個溝通協調嗎?好嗎?因為最多我剛剛已經提到了林佳龍秘書長到戰後承諾政府要停止這個開發案好嗎?部長我就這個案子就因為今天發生我盡我的力量但是有些東西是超越我的前線因為我第一個我也沒有就請你關心因為今天他此時此刻好謝謝部長"},{"start":13018.2,"end":13044.793,"text":"市長那我現在在確認一個事實就是說我們目前的那個中小型廢棄物焚化爐帶二型管制及排放的標準當中在第7條第1項第5款有講到既有的焚化爐在集成設備入口的廢棄溫度必須是在規定是在設置280度以下那新設的焚化爐要在200度以下請問這個規定現在是不是還是有效的這是2005年規範的我是不是請我們環管署就是說只要說是不是還是正確的是的"},{"start":13046.534,"end":13050.279,"text":"好好ok那下一張那這一個左邊齁這張圖的左邊就是目前的這個環境部客戶專責教材的截圖啦但是這裡談到的那個觸媒反應齁觸媒反應齁在框起來的地方他是寫200度到450度"},{"start":13062.176,"end":13077.858,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":13077.858,"end":13093.797,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13093.797,"end":13114.548,"text":"．"},{"start":13114.828,"end":13132.499,"text":"進步新的觸媒這個是教材阿專責教材阿對阿所以這個應該修改就修改好謝謝那再來齁觸媒成分是不是商業機密我想請教部長觸媒廠商說自己的觸媒是商業機密請問你同意或支持這個說法嗎阿觸媒"},{"start":13134.442,"end":13158.548,"text":"當然會是一個商業機密我知道您過去的主張也是如此但是這個是因為它我剛剛提到了會有不斷的研發有不斷的新的這個材質出現如果連芊合的技術師都不能知道它的內容那請問技術師要怎麼去核實這家工廠的觸媒裝置跟操作溫度是正確的而且是能夠有效的這個運作那你這樣做如果不讓他知道那你不是限這個這個"},{"start":13160.854,"end":13169.286,"text":"所謂的這個設計這個技師這個簽證簽口都是限他於不義之地嗎現在有處罰的嫌疑嗎因為他不知道真相啊不知道這個內容物啊那部長就說"},{"start":13174.287,"end":13192.815,"text":"這件事情就是說如果有一個方法我在想他們宣稱是商業機密那你部長你到現在也從也認為這個是屬於商業機密是其實這個在藥品很多地方都有談藥品的成分配方的是不是商業機密這可以討論那是不是可以這樣因為技師要去核發嘛核簽嘛"},{"start":13193.854,"end":13216.512,"text":"那可不可以讓祭司知道他的成分比例因為這個影響他的操作溫度嘛那但是他可以簽索密承諾啊部長您覺得是不是可以要處理呢我個人覺得基本上我個人也是陷這個祭司於不義啊他不知道啊他還要去簽合啊簽證啊可是我們應該看他使用這個醜梅所產生出來的不管是"},{"start":13217.012,"end":13242.328,"text":"部長我因為前兩章就很努力告訴你說有不同的觸媒材質他的溫度是不一樣的那也許跟著研發因為進步了嘛那你教材都要改了那何況這個他要了解資訊那個部長就是說我知道過去態度你們是這樣當作機密但是機密也是可以另外再處理的是不是讓這個就是專業人員去做這件事的時候他是在有知的情況下去做這個處理好嗎我們來努力看看好不好那好下一張謝謝部長"},{"start":13246.391,"end":13247.194,"text":"您知道這張是什麼圖嗎?"},{"start":13249.259,"end":13276.193,"text":"這個PM2.5這是光海這個是美國太空總署跟美國國家海洋暨大氣總署的那個衛星影像製作的那我跟部長解釋一下藍色跟黑色表示就是該去的夜空是比較相對黑暗那綠色黃色紅色是表示是就是有人造的光散發出來的一個光線部長你可以看到台灣的西部那個放大的圖台灣的西部地區綠色黃色部分比起全世界"},{"start":13277.333,"end":13300.778,"text":"光害相當嚴重你看到這張圖這張圖好那部長知道光害會造成什麼影響嗎我就直接先告訴部長陳委員報告事實上剛剛也有人提到環境部本身已經也在研議光害但是我想我要繼續這個就是讓部長能夠做得更積極他對人體健康的影響我想這個光害睡眠一定有"},{"start":13301.738,"end":13327.204,"text":"市域一定有嘛那你知道因為我們身體的荷爾蒙的分泌是有生物節律是沒錯荷爾蒙的分泌也會異常甚至造成小朋友性早熟都可能是那大家有很多人在開車看到那個遠光燈啊對啊遠光燈有些用LED的那個但是現在國內的污染的部分有關這個光污染的這個陳情案每年大概700件是那你比起噪音跟其他看來比較少那是因為國內不知道光污染也是一個光害沒錯沒錯"},{"start":13327.904,"end":13355.875,"text":"那他也不知道說這個可以跟誰陳情那部長你在目前為止我談的你都接受跟瞭解這是有一些科學的依據跟全球的一些規範下一張那現在我們就是說我們缺乏污染這個管制的一個明確法規那2014年我要談的就是說那個法治局其實有一些專題的研究那2021年監察院曾經發函就是說指出中央缺乏強制性的法規"},{"start":13356.935,"end":13373.388,"text":"那將會造成集合人力的浪費那地方政府想要做一些自治的條例也無所依循所以要求競速將關害防治法提案這個送審但是今年一月修正的這個關害這個關污染管理指引他連行政命令都不是欸"},{"start":13374.689,"end":13390.822,"text":"連這個層次都不是欸所以我想知道說部長您對於這件事情觀看您覺得你環境部的態度是積極的嗎你管還是不管但是還在指引的階段啊連行政命令都還不及啊"},{"start":13391.698,"end":13394.7,"text":"對不對那他這個東西就變成說像像我在舉例好好這個這個最新修正的指引當中他對於路燈色溫規定很寬鬆了好根據國際這個暗光這個協會指就是說各級道路顏色應該不要高於3000 k k數越多表示光害越嚴重"},{"start":13407.947,"end":13437.547,"text":"但是臺灣現在的鄉鎮現在鄉鎮就是基本上都開購4000到5000K的LED燈那你這個東西就是還另外一個現在很多交通工具是利用非可見光來偵測或掃描這個也沒有納入所以我想最後一張就是說是不是源頭我們要來處理現在捷克在2002年是第一個國家是設立了光害防治法那南韓跟英國也跟上了我想再問一下您知道我們連江縣也有這個所謂光害管制自治條例嗎您知道嗎"},{"start":13438.807,"end":13459.576,"text":"您知道嗎連江縣我們管轄的連江縣你知道為什麼嗎因為他為了保護藍眼淚好嗎所以整個問題我知道這個問題會跨在環保交通生態農業甚至很多衛生福利等但核心議題還是這個環境保護所以是不是拜託部長就是說我們來去研議很快速研議一些比較有"},{"start":13460.256,"end":13479.023,"text":"才發的這種標準以及比較具體的這個法規第一個請把非可見光納管因為現在很多工具都在使用第二個明定色溫流明上限跟開關的時間另外一個是宣導宣導什麼呢燈具照地不照天減少光線的3億好嗎部長可以嗎好謝謝部長好謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":13500.1,"end":13515.576,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席的政務軍事長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請環境部學部長請學部長好中文好哎等一下畫面還沒出來畫面還沒出來"},{"start":13517.728,"end":13543.053,"text":"好部長好部長還記得嗎在去年10月22號我在院會總質詢跟你請教去年你的承諾我請院長指示責成環境部跟農業部來參照農產品初期加工廠管理辦法將符合農業剩餘物資在利用的環境稽查法規是不是讓由農業部來盡量的主責你還記得嗎是是記得嗎在你的辦公室沒有錯在我的辦公室也在院會質詢過"},{"start":13544.393,"end":13565.076,"text":"不過你對我在辦公室跟您請議的部分比較內容深刻我幫你回憶一下我去年在院會上的質詢下一頁他就說到了農業生產跟工業製造有本質上的這些差異我就不再贅述標準化規格化有生命無生命還有多樣性跟差異性另外下一頁我們環境部卻是用工業製造的同樣的態度來面對農業生產"},{"start":13566.317,"end":13582.737,"text":"包括我們看到了如果是工業的話他有化工毒害可是農業的最多就是空汙臭味那麼資本家資本雄厚小農呢你同樣的處罰小農受不了所以在同樣用工業制造的同一個態度制定出來的反清洗法規對付農民其實不是農民所能承受"},{"start":13583.297,"end":13608.09,"text":"反過來我們繼續看往下看工業製造跟農業生產它的衝擊跟傷害工業製造包括人權傷害環境變遷氣候變遷環境破壞這些不可回復的後果但是農業生產其實對這些的影響相對有限接下來我們來看一下下一頁比如說請教一下像蘇丹紅事件人工的添加戶比較有危害還是我們農民種的辣椒它的生產再怎麼樣哪一個危害重"},{"start":13610.526,"end":13638.766,"text":"工業當然當然是工業的添加物嚴重嘛對不對我們農民天然的天然的通貨啦在那你不敢他也不會有毒害的問題存在好但是接下來我們往下看農業生產的形態我們各位怎麼因應呢其實我們就不斷強調農業部他當時針對的農產品初期加工在面對食安的時候他成功的得到了環境部跟經濟部的支持農業的初期加工不用適用工廠管理法"},{"start":13639.326,"end":13643.253,"text":"我們農業的初級加工也不用食品安全法因為這些初級加工沒有食安的問題部長你同意嗎"},{"start":13646.904,"end":13671.536,"text":"對他基本上是只有農藥的使用的那個問題對所以說同樣的農業生產我們的環境的部分農業所造成的環境問題我們看看怎麼來解決好那往下看但是在今天您的報告口頭報告第10頁當中目前農業的剩餘物資抱歉我一向不接受農業廢棄物的試行思考因為天然長出來的沒有所謂的廢棄物只有放錯地方的資源你同意嗎"},{"start":13672.658,"end":13700.945,"text":"我們本來是要推這個概念是現在你們還是用農業廢棄物的概念但是還是有另外一股聲音覺得說我們不能把廢棄物這種名稱譬如說在農業這一塊積分這個我們了解但是我希望說你們可以用規模跟數量和它的定性的方式來區隔大多數的農業剩餘物資是可再利用的就是符合你們今天要推的什麼"},{"start":13701.685,"end":13726.913,"text":"支援循環促進法對不對好那麼我們來看一下往下一頁現在我們環境部有訂了一個廢清法你們希望能夠用支援循環促進法來處理那農業部本來已經在食品的部分已經有一個辦法了他現在呢也在訂一個辦法那農業部有在訂一個辦法那我們來看一下接下來下一頁支援循環促進法案即將推出已經預告了沒有還沒有因為"},{"start":13729.932,"end":13742.405,"text":"在溝通階段正好我這個發言我這個質詢即時本次修法當然是由環境部統一全責但是是不是農業部門的生產可以另外有一個專法我希望的就是一個什麼"},{"start":13744.567,"end":13770.292,"text":"農業資源循環促進法就是加個農業為什麼要把農業特徵放的我往下看來我舉例來講我手上的這一個來部長你可以看一下我手上這一個這個看起來好像是很漂亮的香皂你知道他用什麼做的嗎他用導泡做的導泡就是黃豆炸油或者做其他的事情然後留下來導泡導泡他是廢棄是不是一個廢棄物"},{"start":13772.005,"end":13772.466,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":13786.827,"end":13810.361,"text":"但是這個事業維修他其實上他幾乎沒有什麼對環境的危害他如果經過適當的處理他可以做成我們洗澡的香皂同樣道理在很多農業剩餘當中他可能在生產過程當中我們不能送餐桌使用的我們當做什麼當作飼料不能當飼料的當肥料不能當肥料我們當燃料這樣的農業剩餘有什麼環境的破壞我們來看一下這是我一個親身接觸的一個場"},{"start":13811.281,"end":13830.59,"text":"他是用什麼呢他用木質的木纖維就是農業的剩餘當中的木纖維他用來一個高溫裂解產生氣體然後呢他用這個氣體燃燒來發電他的名稱叫做生質能生質生物質燃氣發電我們早先在二次大戰的時候曾經有一種煤氣車煤氣車不是蒸氣他煤氣是變成煤氣煤氣再去燃燒就是透過引擎去推動有這樣的技術嗎"},{"start":13840.199,"end":13847.265,"text":"好這樣的技術呢他現在遇到一個問題了到底他是屬於廢棄物發電還是農業廢棄物發電還是生殖能發電現在這個業者要什麼狀況他在農忙農產品多的時候他是大量使用農業的剩餘"},{"start":13856.253,"end":13873.534,"text":"但是在農業收穫之後他這個東西減少了他開始去河畔工廠隔板啊材切料啊這些工廠有大量的材切料這些材切料跟他用的農剩的這個剩餘呢其實差不多都是木纖維但是呢這下就來啦"},{"start":13874.275,"end":13894.001,"text":"他要運用的時候農業部不能界定這個盒板工廠的材切料是農剩嘛不能說是農業廢棄物是你們的工廠認定的事業廢棄物嘛他可不可以使用他就不能使用了所以說我們希望最後的結論主席站起來了齁我希望呢環境部能否將農業資源循環在你們制定資源循環促進法的時候將農業的部分可以跟農業部協商另訂一個專法"},{"start":13901.323,"end":13923.657,"text":"我們除了避免工業廢棄物進入農業部門之外這很嚴重不能讓它進來我們也希望農業資源不要全部都打進了失業廢棄物來處理最後希望你最後一個承諾協同農業部評估再生能源使用多重資源的可行方案可以嗎好那本題的這個主題就是說農業資源循環比照我們資源循環促進法的方式來立法你願意"},{"start":13924.717,"end":13931.561,"text":"參考嗎?我們共同找農業部來推動?可以啊,各部份分工合作這個是好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝主席好,謝謝鍾委員,好,謝謝謝謝鍾嘉賓委員接下來請劉建國委員好,謝謝主席有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":13955.782,"end":13972.97,"text":"好,劉文好部長好,部長看一個影片認識他不錯,會長命百歲瞭解他之後會長不能讀這次海歸部長認識嗎?你要不然他現在在做什麼嗎?"},{"start":13981.946,"end":13985.456,"text":"人家把他從那個鼻孔裡面把那個 啊 把什麼"},{"start":13989.611,"end":14013.892,"text":"這是全世界最知名的海龜也是我們人類永遠的污點也是不希望人類的垃圾機遇影響環境也不要有現在這個海龜去吸到吸管了吃到吸管了所以認識到會長命百歲但是看到它會產不能毒就這個樣子所以前往報數在107年7月1號的時候實施一次用的這個塑膠吸管的限制使用"},{"start":14014.432,"end":14030.158,"text":"那限制政府部門學校包括是購物中心等等數字餐店然後餐飲內用不得提供一次性的塑膠吸管那我想很多業者也自己擴大配合這個政策提供來停止提供塑膠吸管"},{"start":14031.238,"end":14043.41,"text":"在108年限制一次性的這個塑膠吸管政策後荒野保護協會在109年的年底有公布台灣ICC的這個淨灘數據其中塑膠吸管較108年已經減少27%"},{"start":14046.673,"end":14068.992,"text":"沒有真的反饋這個政策是正確的嘛那環境部又在111年度的時候再度推動限制飲料店內使用一次用的塑膠飲料杯那最初在今年9月全台各飲料店要不再提供一次性的這個塑膠杯嘛沒有錯嘛對不對"},{"start":14072.314,"end":14098.059,"text":"這個都是正確的方向正確的政策那我也同意要循序漸進不要照鏡跟社會多多衝通但是我今天要提醒環境部提醒部長這個現用塑膠杯是不是也不夠周圍之處好你看齁應該還有努力空間啦不是不是這個杯塑膠杯這個是紙的這個是塑膠的對"},{"start":14101.576,"end":14121.916,"text":"委員講到重點了我講到重點了裡面都沒有處理到重點奇怪然後這個未完送給我們咖啡等一下一杯請部長一下好不好因為部長沒有喝到上面也是塑膠的下面是紙的那這樣的政策是不是有"},{"start":14122.423,"end":14150.479,"text":"有很大的一個討論的改進的空間嗎?這是其一啦,不是有部長在打呼喚沒關係齁然後第二個就是他有一件事情也很奇怪啦齁今天這個國立的海洋科技博物館也辦這個國際的淨灘他在統計海會的數據齁數學評概依舊是第一名啦保特評是第二名齁那方圓保護協會一樣在109年數學評概也是第一名啊數學評概就這個嘛這是保特評第二名嘛"},{"start":14151.124,"end":14161.249,"text":"啊這是第一瓶嘛對不對齁啊這個你看齁這為什麼給我撕掉這是國內的廠家的飲料用水啊齁這它齁它是設計這樣杯蓋不分身啊杯蓋不分身好啊這個是這是我跟這個昭緯每天都要喝的嘿"},{"start":14172.059,"end":14198.478,"text":"不是打廣告是打高鐵就有這瓶水他就杯蓋分身了我還沒有喝等一下請部長喝還有咖啡杯請你喝就是這個樣子所以這個就第一名這瓶蓋到現在第一名這個可能就不會了所以我是在想說這個瓶蓋這個杯子底下是指的上面這個塑膠的為什麼到現在不處理"},{"start":14199.173,"end":14226.032,"text":"是什麼困難度是什麼理由是什麼原因給委員報告就是說這個是在技術性的一個挑戰就是說假如事實上已經有這種材料跟技術可以把瓶蓋跟瓶身都用同一種材質那當然我想這個廠家也會去做但是到目前為止還沒有經濟可行的替代品不過這兩個都是國內的廠家"},{"start":14228.824,"end":14252.519,"text":"這上面就有他的LOGO了對阿對啊這個都是國內的廠家阿對啊而且這個已經用非常久了是不是現在才產出的不是現在才發明的喔那跟委員報告這個部分我們可以用這個政策引導的方式讓他可以來連生我是要請教處長為什麼現在署長嘛對阿現在署長不一樣了喔為什麼這個用這麼久阿就是這樣"},{"start":14257.102,"end":14276.192,"text":"是國內廠家為什麼這個用這麼久還是這樣你們的當時思考是什麼狀況怎麼會會沒有去注意到然後那個淨灘的評比連續幾年都是這個這個第一名這個第二名然後這個這個要限用了上面還是塑膠瓶蓋"},{"start":14279.637,"end":14308.258,"text":"我把這個盲點提出來啦好不好一個月內啦不要說一週一個月內相對我提出來這個問題是不是有解決之道啦好不好就這樣第二件事情啦齁第二件事情這個部長根據公務法的規定出廠滿5年的機車每年是不是要實施這個排氣的定期檢驗嘛那定檢會從1997年以來一直都維持在一台車是80塊"},{"start":14310.019,"end":14335.646,"text":"環境部在今年期要調整20塊這一筆調整20塊原有的80塊這錢是從哪裡來的是從空屋基金裡面來支付所以對民眾的權益完全沒有影響對民眾的權益完全沒有影響嗎沒有影響那民眾搞不清楚狀況然後罵環境部那環境部也絲毫不受任的影響"},{"start":14337.533,"end":14359.731,"text":"給劉文報告我記得我們事實上是有這個公開去把這個事情你怎麼公開新聞我們有新聞稿有新聞稿當然事實上民眾應該可以感受到他他去機車或者汽車定錢還是沒有繳更多的錢啊我們做20塊是補貼從空污基金補貼"},{"start":14360.765,"end":14381.383,"text":"就是不需要從人民的口袋掏錢出來嘛對不對好啊你看這個FB的社群27年來首度調漲往期選前不敢講選後各種漲然後你講有新聞稿嘛對不對你看這個留言裡面還有某家媒體下面還可以寫說荷包GG"},{"start":14383.65,"end":14405.905,"text":"這個的確我們要檢討,變成被誤導,事實上這個就是標準的假訊息刻意帶風向引起民眾內心的恐慌跟不滿,那我想以後環境部在這一塊我覺得這種本來是好事一件那我們也考量到這些定選單位他過去27年來什麼都帳他沒有帳事實上我們"},{"start":14407.186,"end":14413.514,"text":"為了減少民眾的負擔重點是完全沒有從人民口袋掏錢出來我們還被罵成這個樣子還被這個是很不值得還可以寫一句話選對的人掌對的錢吧"},{"start":14422.217,"end":14443.72,"text":"這是很惡劣的啦我希望就像部長剛才所講的嘛做假訊息然後媒體要參與其中是非常不應該啦快速回應啦好不好好謝謝106年到部長再看一個表106年到112年的機車倒減率部長可以看一下其實每年都有提升只有110年往下掉1%這個很奇怪"},{"start":14445.269,"end":14473.955,"text":"不用花人民納稅錢然後只要求一個倒減率怎麼維持都是在七十幾趴到現在沒辦法到八十幾趴九十幾趴然後有花款有蘿蔔有棒子部長我們來檢討一下這個會不會是我個人感覺當然要看數據實際上怎麼樣會不會比較偏鄉或者他周遭沒有這種定減地方他一般民眾就覺得"},{"start":14475.049,"end":14500.036,"text":"我還要為了定錢我要開騎摩托車還是怎麼那麼遠啊我不曉得我個人的感覺現在有移動式的定錢也不是在一個特定的點所以這個應該是可以提高啦好不好已經換了部長所以不是對不起已經換了署長變成部長也不對環保署已經不見現在變環境部有新部長就會有不一樣的作為"},{"start":14501.556,"end":14515.893,"text":"最後一件事情齁 全國應該還有六七個縣市沒有混化爐嘛 對不對沒有那麼多 現在只有 台灣本島只有南投 外島當然因為規模跟外面比較小 所以我們來去處理沒有混化爐只有南投 南投"},{"start":14518.1,"end":14544.39,"text":"公營的公辦公營的民辦民營的我們都會其實三年前本來就是新竹縣跟那個現在現在就是環保署有在補助嘛環境部對不起就這SRF的這個系統嘛然後我們地方政府也有辦一個叫做零廢棄的自然化系統叫ZWS嘛他分別可以將垃圾製成RDF跟SRF的這個"},{"start":14545.35,"end":14562.346,"text":"：議員"},{"start":14564.187,"end":14591.706,"text":"這個連環保局局長都自己承認了會擔心廠商在防治社會不足或者鍋爐不適合的情況之下會不會燒出東西有問題這個地方的環保局局長都講出這種話那你叫我們地方的就像我們雲林人怎麼會不擔心那我現在掌握的就是大氣環境師他是有針對公司場域固定污染源應符合焚燒比例及成分標準之燃料還有公司場所固定污染源"},{"start":14592.686,"end":14593.266,"text":"我們在進行SF"},{"start":14616.316,"end":14642.765,"text":"產品的分類的現在有在積極進行我第一次追尋部長的時候就特別跟你提到全國的SRF可能要大盤整大盤點那現在這個問題他製造出來的固體再生燃料真的是問題多多然後要接受的焚化爐能不能焚化不再造成二次公害也問題更多嘛是不是部長給我一個時間看"},{"start":14645.359,"end":14674.725,"text":"如果來做這相關的盤整應應處理知道事實上我們產品的分類現在循環署也都已經出來了是包括排放的標準我們也都修訂了在部內我們在這一部分大概已經OK了那接下來當然就是要跟各界來做溝通因為包括環談他們有不同的一些意見跟看法業者也是一樣他們有不同的看法那當我們多收集他們的想法之後我們再把它"},{"start":14676.267,"end":14679.013,"text":"這個修法。好,差不多大概多久時間?"},{"start":14684.127,"end":14687.288,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員那因為現場蔡易瑜委員登記發言的時候已經唱名"},{"start":14708.837,"end":14710.458,"text":"謝謝主席。我想要請薛部長。請薛部長"},{"start":14735.03,"end":14741.435,"text":"謝文豪剛才劉委員不知道他請你那杯咖啡是你們環境部買的"},{"start":14744.147,"end":14772.692,"text":"我想要請問薛部長你上任以來你認為環境部對於我們整個就是環境的推動你們是阻礙還是助力我們在推動的廢清法的這個問題上面其實我問了很多的工業區的那我們希望把就是減廢把所有的失業廢棄物是零廢的情況下那但是在這個過程當中你們有做溝通嗎"},{"start":14775.258,"end":14789.945,"text":"我們循環署應該都有跟業界定期在舉辦是跟地方政府嗎還是跟業界都有還有跟木地事業主管機關我們會跟木地事業主管一起來跟那個我們的木地事業業界"},{"start":14790.926,"end":14815.886,"text":"對你們有沒有讓就是業者直接知道因為他們在減費的過程當中他會誤以為他現在負擔的是好像更嚴重的稽查的一個情況那如果你們只是要觀測減費的情況那是不是應該要讓他們瞭解那畢竟我們如果沒有業者的配合整個減費的那個"},{"start":14819.809,"end":14843.733,"text":"規劃目標也沒有辦法達成是不是所以這個還是要業者配合那我們會用政策還有這個輔導的方式引導他來做那部長你今天早上也回答了是不是目前就是我昨天在經濟部經濟委員會問了王部長你們目前開徵探費的提成是什麼時候"},{"start":14845.146,"end":14854.661,"text":"一照原來的規劃我們在今年的3月底希望會議審議委員會能夠訂出碳費的費率"},{"start":14860.209,"end":14885.135,"text":"我們昨天已經把這一屆的碳會費力審議委員會的名單公布那他們明天要召開第一次的會議所以我們當然是期待是可以順利的能夠按當初的規劃不過整個大環境也做了一些改變我們也希望費力審議委員會也能夠衡量包括國內外的情勢"},{"start":14886.255,"end":14903.91,"text":"以及我們民生跟產業等等的發展去做綜合的一個判斷因為環境部開增碳費不是我們最主要的目的我們最主要目的是減碳所以我們非常強調企業要去做自主"},{"start":14904.971,"end":14931.518,"text":"簡單的計畫他可以獲得非常好的但是你們的探探權的認證例如好我們說現在希望有生靈探權是不是就是我們但是如果沒有認證的時候你自己去照靈並不會產生探權嗎是不是不會他只要沒有經過程序按照環境部核定的方法學你自己去種樹沒有用"},{"start":14933.098,"end":14956.824,"text":"是所以這個民間所有的企業都不清楚的情況下他們就沒有辦法去就是擁有這個探權啊即便他們去中訴了所以這個部分我認為是一個非常嚴重的資訊落差這個部分是歸你們還是歸經濟部還是歸農業部這個其實是跨部會的是你們在檢參辦公室有沒有討論啊是是是"},{"start":14962.745,"end":14968.009,"text":"新聞報告事實上在森林碳會的這一塊事實上是屬於海農業部我們都有分工的"},{"start":14990.808,"end":15009.268,"text":"那至於產業界的福道排碳大戶大概是環境部我們積極來協助他們怎麼去包括碳盤查那中小企業的這一塊是以經濟部來主導環境部來做配合所以給社員協會人報告放心事實上我們有在"},{"start":15011.089,"end":15037.656,"text":"沒有辦法放行因為你們就是因為跨部會然後都沒有整合好那對於企業還有對於農民他們或者甚至對於漁民或者是潮間貸他們所擁有的碳會他們都不是完全清楚的狀況下那如果大家對於自然環境不曉得會產生多少的碳權的情況下那有可能未來對於這些產業的規劃"},{"start":15039.156,"end":15062.203,"text":"也會不清楚所以我認為這個腳步是沒有辦法停的即便國際的就是說CBAN他們的腳步好像沒有我們預期中的快的情況下我們當然也是亦步亦趨因為我們沒有辦法超越他們嗎我們的確是在這個碳交易裏面或者甚至在氣候變遷的這個碳權裏面我們也是一個"},{"start":15065.484,"end":15088.645,"text":"就是小的經濟體那怎麼樣子在這個過程當中我們做好更好的準備我認為環境部是沒有辦法就是晃慢角度的所以你認為你認為你自己的目前你給自己打幾分我不打分數我不會給誰人報告你是老師啊你是老師你不是最習慣打分數"},{"start":15089.366,"end":15107.214,"text":"他們從去年10月會員本來要求進出口到歐盟的那個廠商要去爆炭族機結果只有10%去爆炭族機所以我的意思是說任何政策剛剛開始實施的時候事實上它會有一些這個挑戰必須經過那段時間以後才會"},{"start":15110.575,"end":15128.67,"text":"但是我認為你可以把他們現在腳步放緩是當作你自己我們可以加速我們內部在整合這個因為其實跨部會裡面都沒有整合好啊那這樣子你們都沒整合好中小企業怎麼做?文明怎麼做?移民怎麼做?我覺得應該整合的還算不錯啦好 謝謝好 謝謝謝伊鳳委員接下來請蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":15148.083,"end":15174.643,"text":"好謝謝主席那我是不是有請部長薛部長還有這個大氣環境師蔡文豪張司長部長這個嘉義市他們就是偶爾來就是他們現在要興建焚化爐的地方那麼現在縣子是把它叫做環保的一個環保戰志環保回收物戰存場"},{"start":15175.902,"end":15203.807,"text":"那分別在111年的8月21號跟112年的2月24號以及今年剛發生沒多久113年的2月20號分別發生大火分身大火然後這個大火造成了臨近包括水上包括中埔甚至到的太保鹿草都可以聞到這個惡臭非常的臭那我要請教部長的是說那這樣的一個叫做回收物的戰事場"},{"start":15205.507,"end":15229.014,"text":"他完全不受到任何的管理嗎?或者是法條的一些約束嗎?是這樣的嗎?有,我們對戰事場事實上是有要求他要做某一些設施包括譬如說裝監視器還有甚至是可以感應他溫度的變化的這些設施,事實上是有要求"},{"start":15229.454,"end":15247.395,"text":"但是這一個案子你們也有到現場去我第一時間就請我們環境部啊稽查大隊嘛南部大隊去然後說有沒有相關的影像啊有沒有照片啊甚至是怎麼起火的當時的影像都沒有都只有在火災事後的現況"},{"start":15250.229,"end":15273.815,"text":"在當下是沒有任何火災的當下是沒有任何記錄的不過跟蔡委員報告因為嘉義市福祉內這間案件其實它是因為過年期間額外因為過年大家都知道說因為可能是大掃除那特別很多的這些這個回收物所以它暫時儲存在那個地方"},{"start":15274.415,"end":15290.047,"text":"不是不是他也不是過年暫時儲存喔他那裡就是就是就是在做環保品的齁環保品然後他又放好久捏回收戶放好久他不是說過年放而已喔齁所以不就這件在五回"},{"start":15290.867,"end":15300.294,"text":"他是真的都這幾年就是放在那邊那當然這一塊未來他們就是要把他蓋焚化爐要為燒爐變大爐就是現在日燒300噸要300萬噸要把他增加到500萬噸要變大爐然後現在這裡就定義說他們的本事就全部放在這裡一包一包包起來那我要請教部長說因為他把他叫做戰存場他變得說他法律約束不到他"},{"start":15321.367,"end":15341.697,"text":"然後所以你說應該要進場齁應該要有紀錄 阿不然也要入面說齁有多少入面 有齁有多少東西入面都沒有捏 都沒有記錄捏 然後阿去年也是過年之後 過年之後一星期就恢修今年也過年之後一星期就恢修 是不是裡面東西太多 阿再過去幫忙修它"},{"start":15345.922,"end":15363.151,"text":"這個聽起來很諷刺可是就是辭職發生阿連續兩年欸是是跟委員報告那他這個資收場的確是場地是不夠大他已經在規劃另外一個比較完整的那個場地那好那我想要請教現在有在規劃那現在燒掉了因為燒掉的空間都出來了他們可以繼續在裡面再放嗎"},{"start":15364.264,"end":15393.041,"text":"因為你們都沒有記錄啊本來說一個支收場它可以容量多少的垃圾這個應該是有總量管制的嘛那因為它今年半會社會已經在半會社會都從零開始那還可以再放嗎我覺得應該是那我想在這個館裡面我們會再跟環保局這邊再來我這很難想像因為我請我們那天稽查大隊到了現場然後我說欸你這張也要我看著回到 倒起來那瞬間的畫面都沒有啊都沒有"},{"start":15393.761,"end":15416.059,"text":"對啊整個惡臭然後昨天好像嘉義市議會有在議員在諮詢這件事他們還告訴社會大眾說沒那麼吵我可以說沒那麼吵是因為齁都在過年的時候會燒所以都是吹燈泡開風所以都南部的吵啦我們水上中部的吵啦跟他一起沒什麼吵到大概就過年過的吵完啦"},{"start":15417.2,"end":15439.921,"text":"我們真的很難接受那我再用最後一分鐘我要請教一下部長就剛剛講這一塊就是嘉義市過去一盆化爐然後現在他要蓋大樓嘛然後照理這個環境影響評估在做環評的時候這個環評是嘉義市政府自己我環評然後環評的時候照理是不是要跟鄰近的居民要有溝通"},{"start":15440.661,"end":15467.615,"text":"結果他辦了一場公聽會他說以環境影響評估辦法第12條他辦了一場公聽會這場公聽會因為我們覺得自己放在外面那個地方自己沒有人不在臨近我們的水上臨近我們的中部我們那是人口密集的地方所以我主要和陳柏林議員林鄉庭鄉長當時是議員黃榮鈞議員還有水上跟中埔的公所我們一起去公聽會抗議"},{"start":15469.791,"end":15492.66,"text":"說啊您的嘉義市喔您的擇址的地點離我們嘉義縣太近了我們很不很不高興我們去抗議啊我們去抗議如果我們不去沒問題喔我們去抗議以後他們現在抓到了那個環境影響評估說哦嘉義縣從蔡易宇立委陳柏霖議員林祥廷議員黃東俊議員已經出席公聽會並且表示意見所以跟地方就算溝通完了"},{"start":15496.202,"end":15510.235,"text":"給蔡委員報告我事實上是認同跟支持蔡委員的觀點就是說未來環境部將來在這些環評案子應該去思考以那個不管是魂化爐還是什麼事情發生的"},{"start":15510.836,"end":15523.841,"text":"的中心周遭的地方都應該拿去考量是阿是阿因為現在說以行政單位嘛然後以嘉義市放在他們最邊邊的我支持這種觀點對阿但是這樣對我們真的很不公平這個是文化爐啦可是我現在對這個戰事場連兩年火災沒有相關的影像沒有相關的紀錄我覺得這件事情不對"},{"start":15538.663,"end":15540.504,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員委員接下來請陳盈委員"},{"start":15577.124,"end":15581.617,"text":"謝主席麻煩請我們薛部長還有化學署的謝主長"},{"start":15585.402,"end":15610.623,"text":"陳文豪部長好我想今天就針對有毒食用化學物質的管理有些問題要請教我想先請教一下在毒化物及化學物質管理局最初成立的宗旨跟任務是什麼?"},{"start":15612.532,"end":15628.059,"text":"事實上是同整因為在105年的時候發生在這個之前事實上發生蠻多包括系統性的食安事件那時候蔡總統就責成那時候的環保署"},{"start":15636.961,"end":15648.224,"text":"所以主要還是為了把關食品安全的源頭然後整個提升我們食品安全的整個安全度的提升"},{"start":15649.885,"end":15671.699,"text":"首先當然最近大家討論蘇丹紅物質的事件。蘇丹紅物質的毒性它是工業用的產品並不能添加於食品。這一類的物質在環境部的化學物質管理是屬於哪一類的物質?它是屬於D4類的毒化物。"},{"start":15672.199,"end":15679.824,"text":"好那第4類的這個毒化物的部分你們不同的分類是不是有這個不同管理程度的這個分別"},{"start":15702.439,"end":15710.793,"text":"對阿相當嚴謹所以我剛剛問是說不同的分類是有那個不同管理程度或強度的這個不同好我們謝署長來回答一下"},{"start":15712.53,"end":15737.532,"text":"報告委員其實一二三四類並不是說排名這個我瞭解是證據的多寡的問題第一類就是這個比如說持久性第二類慢毒性第三類急毒性那第四類的話就是有這個就是對環境或人體有健康的所以我們在管理上是強度是一樣的"},{"start":15738.012,"end":15766.795,"text":"好謝謝那所以剛剛程度跟強度啦強度一樣那程度就基本上類別是不一樣嗎那再來就是說行政院這個食安辦公室一開始根據國際癌症物質的分類說蘇丹紅是屬於第三級那也就是說他是屬於有限的證據或無明確證據然後可能會引起致癌性那因此這個健康安全的威脅有限這樣的說法是"},{"start":15767.515,"end":15782.956,"text":"啊我想是不會被民眾是沒有辦法接受啦那我想請教一下就是部長看法是怎麼樣我想習主任他已經也道歉了啦齁因為他那一類是另外一種分類法齁那包括像第一類在"},{"start":15783.917,"end":15810.556,"text":"自來的那一類第一類就是煙啦酒啦等等這些東西那第三類就是包括咖啡茶跟蘇丹紅事實上這個比喻是不恰當的我們現在在談的是毒化物的這一塊那我們國內的法規事實上也是規定在這一塊應該從這一塊來談但是蘇丹紅事件必須我想除了我們關心化學銀跟國內的這一塊事實上"},{"start":15811.056,"end":15834.911,"text":"他還有其他部分我們真的必須要考慮因為他是以食品或者調味料塑膠粉的方式進來那在中國產地他把蘇丹紅加到辣椒粉裡面去所以才會整個案子是讓辛苦的衛福部他們變成食藥署在檢查"},{"start":15836.872,"end":15860.935,"text":"他們也是有點倒霉有發現了結果還要被大家罵那我想這次就是說後來你們這個化學署的這個資料庫有顯示進口的數量那對於說資料庫可以把這個蘇丹紅放進來變成這個作為第4類的毒化物我想這個部分國人會是都會予以肯定那現在只是說你們現在做的這些只是第一步而已"},{"start":15861.536,"end":15889.017,"text":"那重要的是這個毒化物質的這個流布管理也就是distribution management的部分那這些物質都用到哪裡去了有沒有按照這個進口申報的目的去使用我想才是你們的任務才是這個管理的目的嘛那我想請教署長你們到底是怎麼做這個流布的管理然後如何確確的這個掌握數據的真實性還有哪些物質一定要做"},{"start":15889.457,"end":15905.509,"text":"做這個流布的管理請你說明根本報告依照獨管法來講就我們公告的獨化或關注化學物質從要取得許可要申報就是從製造輸入販賣使用儲存一直到後面通通要取得許可"},{"start":15906.149,"end":15931.084,"text":"要申報那要標示這些所以我們在網路上的話就從這個資料庫上是可以一個一個去做一個去向的流向比如他從跟誰買他賣給誰要多少每個月都要申報所以這個從這個申報資料是可以去做勾結比對然後再到現場去查核這個實際的東西那所以有哪些物質是一定要做流布管理"},{"start":15931.764,"end":15950.622,"text":"通通都要通通都要好那很好那我想這次的問題就是說這些工業用的這個物質就跑去變成了食品添加物那請問署長說這樣的行為有沒有觸犯到你們的任何的法規好因為我我都沒有聽到你們的聲音啊"},{"start":15951.403,"end":15966.198,"text":"好像全部都是違反這個食安法好像就是然後是跟你們這個主管的法律都沒有關係嗎根本報告如果啦我們假設如果是國內的業者把蘇丹色素加到辣椒粉去那就是我們的事"},{"start":15967.287,"end":15985.574,"text":"那就違反那個國內的業者對比如說我們的蘇丹色素有進口嘛吼那有些業者就取得了然後就把它加到辣椒粉去那這樣出來這個部分吶就是我們獨管法管轄的那就違反了就把就在國內啦吼把它加進來這樣子就違反了"},{"start":15987.13,"end":16009.555,"text":"所以這次都跟你們都沒有關係都是在外面加碗在進來其實我們也是很緊密的在掌控啊因為我們也擔心說真的是從國內進來的所以事實上都是所以我的問題是說到底跟你們有沒有你們的相關的法規有沒有觸犯到你們任何的相關的法規目前是沒有目前是沒有那"},{"start":16010.615,"end":16034.12,"text":"那是以後也都這個再繼續調查下去通通都不會有給我們報告因為他進口的是辣椒粉辣椒粉不是環境部在管最主要是辣椒粉他是食藥署在管那這個就是你們的法規是針對這個進口商中間商還是說末端的這個使用端去做懲處通通都要"},{"start":16034.4,"end":16041.735,"text":"通通都要好那你們目前的這個有沒有足夠的人力跟能力去追蹤調查跟管理"},{"start":16043.078,"end":16062.548,"text":"當然人力是要持續補但是我們有希望環保局配合因為你們自己報告有講我的瞭解是你們已經培訓了13800多名的應變人員還有3區有10隊還在一個小時內可以達到事故現場然後還有兩個監控中心還有24小時全年無休的這個這個"},{"start":16065.435,"end":16088.13,"text":"但是環境事故應變中心但是你們就是也培訓了非常多的人所以就是說以這次蘇丹紅的事件你們是如何去執行你們的主管業務我們目前這個分開兩個一個剛剛委員所提的那個是指毒化災應變的部分那個體系包括所以剛剛一萬多人都跟這個都是沒有用毒化災在這裡就不好啊"},{"start":16088.69,"end":16116.907,"text":"不是那個就是有業界的包括訓練業界的這部分那我們在做毒化物這個稽查管制的話是主要是跟環保局那我們環保局然後我們也有補助一些人力到各環保局去那大概就這樣所以你們現在是有足夠的能力人力去追蹤調查嗎要持續增加因為如果說公告的項目品項越來越多的話其實人力還是要再增加好那所以你剛剛有提到嘛各縣市的環保局那你們現在跟他們關係怎麼樣"},{"start":16118.701,"end":16145.22,"text":"我們其實在獨厚館裡面本來就是一個一個team然後我們也有補助他們這個人力大概有補助應該關係良好是還就合作上還可以你確定每個地方都還不錯我確定好你確定好很好那事實上你們是應該你們是屬於這個跨部會的這個業務但因為這個產業發展署還有這個職業安全衛生署還有食藥署以及農業部"},{"start":16147.342,"end":16166.88,"text":"農業部甚至國科會的科技研發教育部大學的教學實驗其實都跟你們有非常密切的關係所以你們平常是有合作的平台嗎是雙邊還是說左邊的"},{"start":16169.096,"end":16188.128,"text":"有我們如果從因為我們從最上層就是院長主持的國家化學物質管理會報那裡面就有各部會都要進來那議題上都會在這個會報還有這個會委員的諮詢會議我們部長是執行長那我們是還有一些跨部會的工作會議很多都會在這裡做討論"},{"start":16189.538,"end":16215.362,"text":"因為今天我在實務上有提了很多的問題那主要的目的其實就是說要督促你們不要把自己做小了你們責任是非常重大的因為現在已經升格為屬了那負責有這個政策規劃還有執行跟管理的責任那這個食安的問題如果說有你們正確無誤的資料那從這個上中下游"},{"start":16215.742,"end":16216.042,"text":"我們來持續加油"},{"start":16238.752,"end":16240.813,"text":"好謝謝陳委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉翔楊耀邱正軍所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":16254.08,"end":16271.425,"text":"現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}