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欸 部長我們已經調出資料喔你們有幫很多商業服務的這個某數字商網購平台一個小時之內幫他下架 夾粉磚喔部長你要確定喔我們有一個RPG的機制是說如果我們收到不管是哪一個單位的行政命令或者是法律規約要求我們是可以用DNSR"},{"start":177.402,"end":203.034,"text":"不只是廣告啦第一你們有下架粉專啦這個網路上都有訊息我的部落格都可以傳給你看平台經濟也是屬於你們所以這次警政署聯繫Meta因為現在網路上有訊息通知說這個有用戶收到這個就恢復了以後臉書傳給他的訊息是說警政署刑事調查局的法律要求"},{"start":203.934,"end":222.204,"text":"警政署有沒有聯繫META?是直接聯繫還是透過主管機關聯繫?報告委員,我想我們警政署是有提供一些涉及詐騙的粉絲專業請問所以有聯繫嗎?你們是直接聯繫還是透過主管機關聯繫?有沒有智慧速發布?我們警政署本身跟META有一個聯繫的機制"},{"start":224.878,"end":250.785,"text":"但是這次下架不在我們通報的名單裡你看很好玩啊現在警政署也說這個名單跟我們無關速發部也說跟名單無關然後你們每一個部會都要自己來聯繫Meta如果我是平台業者我到底要如何處理呢我想這個速發部部長您也理解嘛這種上下架的這種事情平台業者收到了可能還要跟你們double check要雙項查核甚至三項查核嘛"},{"start":252.085,"end":277.831,"text":"不能這樣子訊息過去就直接下架這一次把正版粉專下架不管你是要推脫責任、表達遺憾還是道歉了事都可以但政府還是要負起責任請問這一次警政署或者是之前警政署你們這一次的粉專跟你們無關那為什麼有這樣的一個訊息呢?這個訊息是造假的嗎?是深偽嗎?是駭客入侵嗎?警政署要不要調查?有沒有人冒用你們的名字?"},{"start":279.654,"end":287.13,"text":"當然如果有犯罪嫌疑我們警政署都會提出這已經不是如果啦網紅截圖啊他被下架之後收到這個通知啊"},{"start":288.325,"end":312.885,"text":"您們有沒有反應?這不是如果啊!這不是如果!我們有跟Meta聯絡,Meta是他們...他回應什麼?下下不受我們通報的資料Meta他們勾勵以後是他們篩選...不好意思副署長,我問的是這個訊息,真訊息、假訊息、偽造訊息還是駭客入侵?要不要調查?這不是如果啊!已經發生啦!"},{"start":318.516,"end":321.257,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審議"},{"start":343.907,"end":348.5,"text":"訴發部應該要肩負起訴政府部會跟平台業者溝通協調的責任"},{"start":350.794,"end":375.343,"text":"所有部會其實也不只是警政署啦,其實還有其他部會,包含可能像經管會,還有更多的部會其實都在跟這些平台業者聯繫。那平台業者要如何查核?你3個部會來3個名單,4個部會來4個名單,也有可能會讓他搞錯嘛。他搞錯當然他要負責,但是我們政府不用負責有一個完整的溝通管道嗎?"},{"start":376.543,"end":394.613,"text":"出發部部長能不能有一個統合的一個機制去扮演業者跟政府之間的這種溝通的角色我們可以包含那個委員我們有個打炸的指揮中心那打炸指揮中心的那個就是有那個來總統一來做部會之間的協調所以以後這種東西我們會協調"},{"start":395.774,"end":416.752,"text":"那中心的負責應該是?打造指揮中心是由院長主持現在踢到院長這邊去啦那所以是不是院長要出來負責囉?我是指揮中心是由院長主持那當然我們有其他的部會在裡面一起來協調速發部是主管平台業者尤其是這些平台、經濟、數位廣告"},{"start":418.473,"end":440.434,"text":"我希望您可以在此承諾啦,未來如果有必要要封鎖帳號,希望各部會應該要有一個通盤的一個單一的這種聯繫,或者要在頁面上清楚標示到底是哪個部會因為什麼原因要封鎖帳號,同時也應該要續名就緝的管道,讓民眾有申訴的機會,政府內部也要有完整的記錄可供查詢,"},{"start":441.195,"end":466.532,"text":"封鎖哪個帳號?什麼時候封鎖?為什麼要封鎖?內部可以記錄,你可以去識別化,但是應該要可以回溯、可以查詢。不然一件事情幾十個粉專,連證交所自己的粉專都受害,沒有人知道是誰的問題,各說各話。我們會協調,那我們在內部會把這個效果做得更好。最後不好意思主席再請財政部副說主宋署長下下。"},{"start":470.367,"end":471.248,"text":"因為近期你們最近有宣布說要來課稅所以整個產業為之嘩然關於虛擬貨幣我想虛擬貨幣是一個新興的產業在之前你們才講這就是你們想要做的事情"},{"start":494.37,"end":509.038,"text":"結果你們之前2024年3月20號才說比特幣沒有內在價值結果現在川普上任了比特幣大漲了破新高昨天晚上9萬4千美金你們現在就跑出來說要課稅了說它有價值了"},{"start":510.218,"end":538.241,"text":"這個做法對不對啊?您對於這個政府這樣的一個做法,你們同意嗎?我想啦,這個我想我節省一點時間,先告訴您喔,署長。就我們所知啊,其實全世界各國,包含泰國,包含阿聯酋,包含瑞士,都有租稅優惠。我們要有棍子跟蘿蔔,不要看到新興產業,就想棒打它兩下,然後看到有錢可以拿,就趕快來收錢,等到暴跌的時候又不管它。"},{"start":540.404,"end":552.958,"text":"這個產業的振興跟我們的這種跟我們的這個民眾的這個不管是課稅也好這做法要並行啊不是不可以課稅但是要做到產業的鼓勵這個部分能不能請署長回去了解一下"},{"start":553.895,"end":580.277,"text":"我跟委員報告其實所謂虛擬通貨的部分如果它真的是貨幣的話基本上是沒有課稅的問題但是目前在台灣把虛擬貨幣的部分是定位成數位商品數位商品就是屬於一般的商品它的交易所得它的交易本來就有1、2稅的問題另外交易所得也會有所得稅的問題其實我們從頭到尾都是根據主管機關的相關法律來做相關的課稅規範我們並沒有改變過"},{"start":582.499,"end":582.619,"text":"主席響鐘"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:11.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:31:16.644000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請數發部部長跟警政署副署長備詢。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員玉珍）","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:16.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:31:17.865000+08:00","text":"請黃部長、詹副署長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:17.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:31:18.865000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:18.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:31:18.426000+08:00","text":"部長好、副署長好。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:29.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:31:51.845000+08:00","text":"社群平臺臉書11月15號深夜下架很多無辜的、正版的財經網紅粉絲專頁，截至昨天為止，我們都還沒有辦法知道真相，數發部和警政署某種程度各說各話，有很多民眾在批評這些提供服務的平臺，在這個平臺上面罵平臺，但沒有關係。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:31:51.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:00.915000+08:00","text":"總之有民眾受害了，有網紅受害了，數發部黃部長、警政署詹副署長，兩位是不是能夠先向無辜受害的民眾表示歉意？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:02.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:06.903000+08:00","text":"不是歉意，對於這次的事件，我們覺得不應該讓它發生，因為據我們兩邊的了解，我們去調查的結果是臉書在作業的時候，他們內部的錯誤造成的，我們並沒有下令要他們移出這些所謂網紅在臉書的粉絲專頁，所以這個顯然是他們內部的問題，當然，我為這個感到惋惜，這樣一個大公司發生這樣的錯是不應該的。","quality":0.37},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:06.903000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:16.667500+08:00","text":"所以感到遺憾啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:16.667500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:26.432000+08:00","text":"副署長，因為有人說是警政署給的訊息，您願不願意表達歉意啊？","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:26.432000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:36.196500+08:00","text":"打詐打到大家惶惶不安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:36.196500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:45.961000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明，這個是發生在15號的晚上9點鐘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:45.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:48.963000+08:00","text":"對不起，副署長，我待會有機會讓您說明，你有沒有要表達歉意啦？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:49.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:49.984000+08:00","text":"我待會還會問啦。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:50.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:54.727000+08:00","text":"這個正如剛剛部長說的，這是Meta本身內部篩選機制，跟警政署……","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:54.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:32:58.029000+08:00","text":"好，Meta的問題嘛！","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:32:58.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:01.332000+08:00","text":"好，兩位真的是要面對，我想至少部長有表達遺憾。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:01.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:07.476000+08:00","text":"我想請問，我國廣告平臺業務跟平臺經濟的主管機關是哪一個部會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:09.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:13.261000+08:00","text":"廣告平臺業務、數位經濟。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:13.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:17.205000+08:00","text":"我們就是負責那幾個廣告平臺的打詐工作，所以這個……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:19.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:22.130000+08:00","text":"下架下對下錯不是打詐的一環嗎？是嘛！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:22.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:23.130000+08:00","text":"這次被移除是因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:22.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:25.613000+08:00","text":"你們的網詐通查網裡面就有提供下架通報的服務嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:25.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:25.914000+08:00","text":"那是詐騙的廣告。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:32.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:33.041000+08:00","text":"沒有喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:34.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:43.750000+08:00","text":"部長，我們已經調出資料，你們有幫很多商業服務，某數字商的網購平臺，一個小時之內幫它下架假粉專喔！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:43.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:45.432000+08:00","text":"對，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:45.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:46.192000+08:00","text":"部長，你要確定喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:47.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:56.481000+08:00","text":"我們有一個RPZ的機制，如果我們收到不管是哪一個單位的行政命令或者是法規要求，我們是可以用DNS RPZ停止解析。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:58.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:33:59.383000+08:00","text":"不只是廣告啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:33:59.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:24.014000+08:00","text":"第一，你們有下架粉專，這個網路上都有訊息，我的部落格都可以傳給你看，平臺經濟也是屬於你們，所以這一次警政署聯繫Meta，因為現在網路上有訊息，有用戶在恢復了以後收到臉書傳給他的訊息說是警政署刑事調查局的法律要求。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:24.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:25.674000+08:00","text":"警政署有沒有聯繫Meta？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:26.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:28.656000+08:00","text":"是直接聯繫，還是透過主管機關聯繫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:28.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:33.298000+08:00","text":"報告委員，警政署是有提供一些涉及詐騙的粉絲專業請Meta下架，但是……","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:33.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:35.179000+08:00","text":"所以有聯繫嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:35.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:39.322000+08:00","text":"你們是直接聯繫，還是透過主管機關聯繫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:39.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:40.662000+08:00","text":"有沒有知會數發部？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:41.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:43.184000+08:00","text":"警政署本身跟Meta有一個聯繫的機制，那是……對，好。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:45.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:49.399000+08:00","text":"但是這一次下架的不在我們通報的名單裡面。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:49.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:50.099000+08:00","text":"欸，你看，很好玩啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:50.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:34:57.801000+08:00","text":"現在警政署說這個名單跟你們無關，數發部也說跟名單無關，然後你們每一個部會都要自己來聯繫Meta。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:34:58.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:00.802000+08:00","text":"如果我是平臺業者，我到底要如何處理咧？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:01.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:23.767000+08:00","text":"我想數發部部長也理解，這種上下架的事情，平臺業者收到了，可能還要跟你們double check，要雙向查核，甚至三向查核，不能這樣一個訊息過去就直接下架，這一次把正版粉專下架，不管你是要推脫責任、表達遺憾，還是道歉了事都可以，但政府還是要負起責任。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:25.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:32.569000+08:00","text":"請問警政署說這次的粉專下架事件跟你們無關，那為什麼有這樣的訊息呢？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:32.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:34.250000+08:00","text":"這個訊息是造假的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:34.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:35.230000+08:00","text":"是深偽嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:35.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:36.310000+08:00","text":"是駭客入侵嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:36.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:38.811000+08:00","text":"警政署要不要調查，有沒有人冒用你們的名字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:40.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:43.340000+08:00","text":"當然，如果有犯罪嫌疑，警政署都會啟動調查。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:43.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:49.845000+08:00","text":"這已經不是如果，有網紅截圖，他被下架之後收到這個通知，你們有沒有反映？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:49.845000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:50.845000+08:00","text":"不是，剛剛跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:50.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:52.127000+08:00","text":"這不是如果啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:52.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:53.228000+08:00","text":"這不是如果！","quality":1},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:54.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:56.211000+08:00","text":"不是，我們有跟Meta聯絡，Meta……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:56.211000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:35:57.211000+08:00","text":"它回應了什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:35:56.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:03.757000+08:00","text":"他們下架的不是我們通報資料，Meta他們過濾以後是他們篩選機制出問題……","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:03.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:10.723000+08:00","text":"不好意思，副署長，我問的是這個訊息是真訊息、假訊息、偽造訊息還是駭客入侵？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:11.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:12.124000+08:00","text":"要不要調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:12.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:13.865000+08:00","text":"這不是如果，已經發生啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:13.865000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:17.314111+08:00","text":"如果確定是造假的，警政署當然會做……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:17.314111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:20.763222+08:00","text":"我們現在就是要請警政署確定造假啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:20.763222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:24.212333+08:00","text":"我們很希望有國會調查權啊！","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:24.212333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:27.661444+08:00","text":"我們很想幫你調查啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:27.661444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:31.110556+08:00","text":"我們會請刑事局來確認。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:31.110556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:34.559667+08:00","text":"你們自己被偽造，你們自己不用管喔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"詹副署長永茂","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:34.559667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:38.008778+08:00","text":"我們會請刑事局來確認。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:38.008778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:41.457889+08:00","text":"好，麻煩提出報告。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:41.457889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:44.907000+08:00","text":"這個真的是很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:44.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:36:49.480000+08:00","text":"另外，部長，你可不可以允諾，數發部應該要肩負起政府部會跟平臺業者溝通協調的責任？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:36:51.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:04.999000+08:00","text":"所有部會，其實也不只是警政署，還有其他部會，包含可能像金管會，還有更多的部會，其實都在跟這些平臺業者聯繫，平臺業者要如何查核？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:05.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:16.343000+08:00","text":"三個部會來三個名單、四個部會來四個名單，也有可能會讓他搞錯，他搞錯當然他要負責，但是政府不用負責有一個完整的溝通管道嗎？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:17.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:24.827000+08:00","text":"數發部部長，能不能有一個統合的機制去扮演業者跟政府之間的這種溝通角色？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:26.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:35.613000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們有個打詐指揮中心，打詐指揮中心就是統一來做部會之間的協調，所以以後這種東西我們會協調。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:36.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:37.955000+08:00","text":"那中心的負責應該是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:38.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:48.984000+08:00","text":"打詐指揮中心是由院長主持，那……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:48.984000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:49.984000+08:00","text":"現在踢到院長那邊去了啦！就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:49.984000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:50.984000+08:00","text":"所以現在是院長要出來負責囉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:49.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:37:52.067000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說指揮中心由院長主持，當然有其他部會在裡面一起來協調，所以遇到……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:37:53.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:36.845000+08:00","text":"好啦，數發部是主管平臺業者，尤其是這些平臺經濟、數位廣告，我希望您可以在此承諾，未來如果有必要要封鎖帳號，希望各部會應該要有通盤的、單一的聯繫，或者要在頁面上清楚標示，到底是哪個部會因為什麼原因要封鎖帳號，同時也應該要敘明救濟的管道，讓民眾有申訴的機會，政府內部也要完整的紀錄可供查詢，封鎖哪個帳號、什麼時候封鎖、為什麼要封鎖，內部可以記錄，可以去識別化，但是應該要可以回溯可以查詢，不然一件事情，幾十個粉專，連證交所自己的粉專都受害，沒有人知道是誰的問題，各說各話！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"黃部長彥男","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:36.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:40.968000+08:00","text":"好，委員，我們會協調，我們在內部會把這個協調工作做得更好。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:41.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:47.392000+08:00","text":"最後，不好意思，主席，再請財政部賦稅署宋署長。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:47.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:49.379500+08:00","text":"請宋署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:49.379500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:51.367000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:51.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:38:51.687000+08:00","text":"因為你們最近有宣布要針對虛擬貨幣課稅，所以整個產業為之譁然。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:38:51.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:39:32.039000+08:00","text":"虛擬貨幣是一個新興的產業，在之前你們才講了這就是你們想要做的事情，你們之前2024年3月20號才說比特幣沒有內在價值，結果現在川普上任了，比特幣大漲破新高，昨天晚上9萬4,000美金，你們現在又跑出來說要課稅了，說它有價值了，這個作法對不對啊？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:39:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:39:36.703000+08:00","text":"對於政府這樣的作法，你們同意嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:39:37.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:39:39.585000+08:00","text":"我想我節省一點時間，先告訴您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:39:39.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:39:59.221000+08:00","text":"署長，就我們所知，其實全世界各國，包含泰國，包含阿聯酋，包含瑞士，都有租稅優惠，我們要有棍子跟蘿蔔，不要看到新興產業就想棒打他兩下，看到有錢可以拿就趕快來收錢，等到暴跌的時候又不管它。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:01.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:40:13.938000+08:00","text":"產業的振興跟課稅也好，兩者的作法要並行，不是不可以課稅，但是要做到對產業的鼓勵，這個部分能不能請署長回去了解一下？","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:14.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:40:36.433000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，其實所謂虛擬通貨的部分，如果它真的是貨幣的話，基本上是沒有課稅的問題，但是目前在臺灣是把虛擬貨幣定位成數位商品，數位商品就是屬於一般的商品，它的交易本來有營業稅的問題，另外交易所得也會有所得稅的問題。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:36.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-11-20T16:40:41.277000+08:00","text":"其實我們從頭到尾都是根據主管機關的相關法律來做相關的課稅規範，我們並沒有改變過。好。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:41.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:40:48.919857+08:00","text":"你說你沒有改變過，你有改變，3月的時候，你們說它沒有價值啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:49.219857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:40:58.934143+08:00","text":"沒關係，我想未來所有的政策推行之前，希望做好社會溝通，三思而後行，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葛委員如鈞","start":"2024-11-20T16:40:59.234143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:41:01.234143+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。是。謝謝。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T16:41:01.534143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:41:03.534143+08:00","text":"謝謝葛如鈞委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-11-20T16:41:03.834143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-11-20T16:41:06.119857+08:00","text":"接著請邱志偉委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3098,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（16時31分）謝謝主席，有請數發部部長跟警政署副署長備詢。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍）：請黃部長、詹副署長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好、副署長好。社群平臺臉書11月15號深夜下架很多無辜的、正版的財經網紅粉絲專頁，截至昨天為止，我們都還沒有辦法知道真相，數發部和警政署某種程度各說各話，有很多民眾在批評這些提供服務的平臺，在這個平臺上面罵平臺，但沒有關係。總之有民眾受害了，有網紅受害了，數發部黃部長、警政署詹副署長，兩位是不是能夠先向無辜受害的民眾表示歉意？"],["黃部長彥男：不是歉意，對於這次的事件，我們覺得不應該讓它發生，因為據我們兩邊的了解，我們去調查的結果是臉書在作業的時候，他們內部的錯誤造成的，我們並沒有下令要他們移出這些所謂網紅在臉書的粉絲專頁，所以這個顯然是他們內部的問題，當然，我為這個感到惋惜，這樣一個大公司發生這樣的錯是不應該的。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以感到遺憾啦！副署長，因為有人說是警政署給的訊息，您願不願意表達歉意啊？打詐打到大家惶惶不安。"],["詹副署長永茂：謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明，這個是發生在15號的晚上9點鐘……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，副署長，我待會有機會讓您說明，你有沒有要表達歉意啦？我待會還會問啦。"],["詹副署長永茂：這個正如剛剛部長說的，這是Meta本身內部篩選機制，跟警政署……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，Meta的問題嘛！好，兩位真的是要面對，我想至少部長有表達遺憾。我想請問，我國廣告平臺業務跟平臺經濟的主管機關是哪一個部會？廣告平臺業務、數位經濟。"],["黃部長彥男：我們就是負責那幾個廣告平臺的打詐工作，所以這個……"],["葛委員如鈞：下架下對下錯不是打詐的一環嗎？是嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：這次被移除是因為……"],["葛委員如鈞：你們的網詐通查網裡面就有提供下架通報的服務嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：那是詐騙的廣告。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有喔！部長，我們已經調出資料，你們有幫很多商業服務，某數字商的網購平臺，一個小時之內幫它下架假粉專喔！"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：部長，你要確定喔！"],["黃部長彥男：我們有一個RPZ的機制，如果我們收到不管是哪一個單位的行政命令或者是法規要求，我們是可以用DNS RPZ停止解析。"],["葛委員如鈞：不只是廣告啦！第一，你們有下架粉專，這個網路上都有訊息，我的部落格都可以傳給你看，平臺經濟也是屬於你們，所以這一次警政署聯繫Meta，因為現在網路上有訊息，有用戶在恢復了以後收到臉書傳給他的訊息說是警政署刑事調查局的法律要求。警政署有沒有聯繫Meta？是直接聯繫，還是透過主管機關聯繫？"],["詹副署長永茂：報告委員，警政署是有提供一些涉及詐騙的粉絲專業請Meta下架，但是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以有聯繫嘛！你們是直接聯繫，還是透過主管機關聯繫？有沒有知會數發部？"],["詹副署長永茂：警政署本身跟Meta有一個聯繫的機制，那是……"],["葛委員如鈞：對，好。"],["詹副署長永茂：但是這一次下架的不在我們通報的名單裡面。"],["葛委員如鈞：欸，你看，很好玩啦！現在警政署說這個名單跟你們無關，數發部也說跟名單無關，然後你們每一個部會都要自己來聯繫Meta。如果我是平臺業者，我到底要如何處理咧？我想數發部部長也理解，這種上下架的事情，平臺業者收到了，可能還要跟你們double check，要雙向查核，甚至三向查核，不能這樣一個訊息過去就直接下架，這一次把正版粉專下架，不管你是要推脫責任、表達遺憾，還是道歉了事都可以，但政府還是要負起責任。請問警政署說這次的粉專下架事件跟你們無關，那為什麼有這樣的訊息呢？這個訊息是造假的嗎？是深偽嗎？是駭客入侵嗎？警政署要不要調查，有沒有人冒用你們的名字？"],["詹副署長永茂：當然，如果有犯罪嫌疑，警政署都會啟動調查。"],["葛委員如鈞：這已經不是如果，有網紅截圖，他被下架之後收到這個通知，你們有沒有反映？"],["詹副署長永茂：不是，剛剛跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：這不是如果啊！這不是如果！"],["詹副署長永茂：不是，我們有跟Meta聯絡，Meta……"],["葛委員如鈞：它回應了什麼？"],["詹副署長永茂：他們下架的不是我們通報資料，Meta他們過濾以後是他們篩選機制出問題……"],["葛委員如鈞：不好意思，副署長，我問的是這個訊息是真訊息、假訊息、偽造訊息還是駭客入侵？要不要調查？這不是如果，已經發生啦！"],["詹副署長永茂：如果確定是造假的，警政署當然會做……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們現在就是要請警政署確定造假啊！我們很希望有國會調查權啊！我們很想幫你調查啊！"],["詹副署長永茂：我們會請刑事局來確認。"],["葛委員如鈞：你們自己被偽造，你們自己不用管喔？"],["詹副署長永茂：我們會請刑事局來確認。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，麻煩提出報告。"],["詹副署長永茂：好。"],["葛委員如鈞：這個真的是很重要。","另外，部長，你可不可以允諾，數發部應該要肩負起政府部會跟平臺業者溝通協調的責任？所有部會，其實也不只是警政署，還有其他部會，包含可能像金管會，還有更多的部會，其實都在跟這些平臺業者聯繫，平臺業者要如何查核？三個部會來三個名單、四個部會來四個名單，也有可能會讓他搞錯，他搞錯當然他要負責，但是政府不用負責有一個完整的溝通管道嗎？數發部部長，能不能有一個統合的機制去扮演業者跟政府之間的這種溝通角色？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我們有個打詐指揮中心，打詐指揮中心就是統一來做部會之間的協調，所以以後這種東西我們會協調。"],["葛委員如鈞：那中心的負責應該是？"],["黃部長彥男：打詐指揮中心是由院長主持，那……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在踢到院長那邊去了啦！"],["黃部長彥男：就是……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在是院長要出來負責囉？"],["黃部長彥男：不是，我是說指揮中心由院長主持，當然有其他部會在裡面一起來協調，所以遇到……"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，數發部是主管平臺業者，尤其是這些平臺經濟、數位廣告，我希望您可以在此承諾，未來如果有必要要封鎖帳號，希望各部會應該要有通盤的、單一的聯繫，或者要在頁面上清楚標示，到底是哪個部會因為什麼原因要封鎖帳號，同時也應該要敘明救濟的管道，讓民眾有申訴的機會，政府內部也要完整的紀錄可供查詢，封鎖哪個帳號、什麼時候封鎖、為什麼要封鎖，內部可以記錄，可以去識別化，但是應該要可以回溯可以查詢，不然一件事情，幾十個粉專，連證交所自己的粉專都受害，沒有人知道是誰的問題，各說各話！"],["黃部長彥男：好，委員，我們會協調，我們在內部會把這個協調工作做得更好。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後，不好意思，主席，再請財政部賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：請宋署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為你們最近有宣布要針對虛擬貨幣課稅，所以整個產業為之譁然。虛擬貨幣是一個新興的產業，在之前你們才講了這就是你們想要做的事情，你們之前2024年3月20號才說比特幣沒有內在價值，結果現在川普上任了，比特幣大漲破新高，昨天晚上9萬4,000美金，你們現在又跑出來說要課稅了，說它有價值了，這個作法對不對啊？對於政府這樣的作法，你們同意嗎？我想我節省一點時間，先告訴您。署長，就我們所知，其實全世界各國，包含泰國，包含阿聯酋，包含瑞士，都有租稅優惠，我們要有棍子跟蘿蔔，不要看到新興產業就想棒打他兩下，看到有錢可以拿就趕快來收錢，等到暴跌的時候又不管它。產業的振興跟課稅也好，兩者的作法要並行，不是不可以課稅，但是要做到對產業的鼓勵，這個部分能不能請署長回去了解一下？"],["宋署長秀玲：我跟委員報告，其實所謂虛擬通貨的部分，如果它真的是貨幣的話，基本上是沒有課稅的問題，但是目前在臺灣是把虛擬貨幣定位成數位商品，數位商品就是屬於一般的商品，它的交易本來有營業稅的問題，另外交易所得也會有所得稅的問題。其實我們從頭到尾都是根據主管機關的相關法律來做相關的課稅規範，我們並沒有改變過。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。你說你沒有改變過，你有改變，3月的時候，你們說它沒有價值啦！沒關係，我想未來所有的政策推行之前，希望做好社會溝通，三思而後行，好不好？謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["宋署長秀玲：是。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。","接著請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}