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17:05:18","會議時間":"2024-11-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案(114年度)」（僅詢答）。\n【預算提案截止時間：11月27日（三）中午12時】\n【11月20日及21日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.09409375,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.15284375,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.283468750000001,"end":5.042843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.88534375,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.67409375,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.73284375,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.188468750000002,"end":18.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.23034375,"end":21.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.43659375,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.37284375,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.617218750000003,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.43534375,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.49846875,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.180968750000005,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.55096875,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.643468750000004,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.305343750000006,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.94221875,"end":56.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.697218750000005,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.53659375,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":60.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":62.14784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.109718750000006,"end":64.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.88159375000001,"end":65.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.29909375,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.08784375,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.22221875000001,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.66034375000001,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.67659375000001,"end":81.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.89159375,"end":84.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.12284375,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.33784375,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.19346875000001,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.80471875,"end":98.63159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.95221875,"end":101.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.12471875,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.83284375000001,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.83221875000001,"end":112.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.22846875,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":116.28284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.74659375,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.53096875000001,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.91096875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.82596875000002,"end":154.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.97721875000002,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.93409375000002,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":163.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.69721875000002,"end":172.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.11784375000002,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.87534375,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.31346875,"end":192.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":197.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.72159375,"end":200.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.14721875,"end":202.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":205.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.42909375000002,"end":208.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.59721875000002,"end":214.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21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眼前都不夠用"},{"start":164.758,"end":177.425,"text":"這件事情會衝擊台灣所謂的四大衝擊教育的衝擊教育的大學生未來會剩下目前的三分之一教育部有沒有在準備國防的衝擊減少這樣剩下30%我們的兵力社福的衝擊達到56%經濟的衝擊幾乎全面性的衝擊我在這些預算當中都沒有看到這些東西"},{"start":190.776,"end":207.662,"text":"閉著眼睛還有跟鄉鎮有關的提了一大堆的地方建設預測全台有三分之的鄉鎮會被消滅我不曉得前瞻計畫跟這些事情有什麼關係好像大家都沒看到"},{"start":210.626,"end":219.841,"text":"倒數42天,台灣進入超高齡社會,各部會有關於超高齡社會的相關前瞻計畫嗎?"},{"start":224.776,"end":239.53,"text":"從這些目前又提出來的這個第5期的計畫裡面我請問這個國發會自行評估一下這5期的前瞻基礎建設計畫有達成原先對未來國家發展的設定目標嗎?請問一下"},{"start":241.472,"end":263.692,"text":"是,謝謝委員。那個我想前瞻計畫推動這些年來,其實它對於提升國人的生活品質,還有均衡台灣,譬如說一些偏鄉的照顧,還有我們一些經濟建設,譬如說有關半導體的研究,這個引進國際廠商等等,其實在這方面都有一些具體的成果。委員剛剛提到...等一下,OK,那我請問你給這個前瞻計畫打幾分?"},{"start":267.157,"end":267.337,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":292.578,"end":293.539,"text":"主席"},{"start":312.981,"end":316.404,"text":"這就是國家的災難整個國家的災難在這裡所有的部會完全沒有在看這件事情因為我的時間有限"},{"start":327.961,"end":346.306,"text":"好 有些部會都已經在響應我在倡導的壯世代這個就是最近諮詢月剛結束我在這裡但是沒時間請各位上台蘇發部蘇發部做了一個壯世代董資樂園出現的壯世代的人潮"},{"start":347.106,"end":374.326,"text":"過去都叫熱領、熱領什麼資訊區幾乎都沒人現在用這一個蘇發布但是我在看蘇發布的新的年度的預算裡面也沒有規劃這一些這一些腦袋思維有但是行動都沒有希望這一次的成功能夠給蘇發布一個勇氣能夠好好的來降低我們這種世代的包括"},{"start":375.106,"end":378.668,"text":"二、審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院"},{"start":393.598,"end":405.866,"text":"整個的超高齡社會才是真正的前瞻這是台灣未來已經被定型的結構這個國發會是最了解的你們是要領導整個要勇於發聲"},{"start":409.068,"end":411.39,"text":"請問我們的行政院有給這樣做一個什麼回應?有回應告訴我們國人進入超高齡的社會我們要做什麼?"},{"start":433.588,"end":450.769,"text":"所以請各部會在這次第5期的一個前瞻預算當中要把這個部分納入你的這個預算的編列裡面以上謝謝謝謝吳春城委員謝謝委員邱正軍委員用書面質詢那接著我們請黃珊珊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3284,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（16時57分）請國發會副主委。"],["主席：國發會詹副主委。"],["吳委員春城：還有其他的也一起上來吧！今天前瞻預算是國發會的主管業務，主委又沒來。"],["主席：還有哪個部會？"],["吳委員春城：所以是不是其他的一起上來吧！"],["主席：「其他」是指有預算的嗎？「其他」是指其他部會？"],["吳委員春城：沒有，就是國發會的所有代表，你們來了幾位，就一起上來。"],["主席：國發會的團隊。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：這都是你們主管的業務。首先要請問一下，前瞻建設預算8,400億要花完了嘛，對不對？那我要請問，我們前瞻了嗎？聽了一整天，大家感覺都還是錢不夠、人不夠，什麼都不夠，到底要多少錢？這是一個潮流嗎？政府越來越臃腫、越來越肥大，後來很多需要的都是被自己吃掉，真正國家的發展目標達到了嗎？","最近川普宣布要成立政府效率部，馬斯克還號稱要把428個聯邦機構砍到剩下99個，削減率達到77%，那我們呢？我們還要再更多嗎？這個方向應該值得國發會好好的研究一下。你們是負責國家發展的方向，如果國家發展方向完全沒有策略，就是這樣子沒完沒了的，國發會大概可以廢掉了。最重要的事情，未來30年就是這件事情，國發會最了解，你們10月17日也公布臺灣未來50年人口要減少將近1,000萬人。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是。"],["吳委員春城：各部會看見了嗎？我們的人口從金字塔變成倒金字塔，叫天翻地覆，前瞻不就是要看這個事情嗎？在整個前瞻計畫裡面，幾乎沒有看到這個東西，沒有人在為這個國家未來發展的方向做準備，都還在混戰眼前，眼前都不夠用，這件事情會衝擊臺灣所謂的四大衝擊，教育的衝擊，大學生未來會剩下目前的三分之一，教育部有沒有在準備？國防的衝擊，我們的兵力減少到剩下30%。社福的衝擊，達到56%。經濟的衝擊，幾乎全面性的衝擊，我在預算當中都沒有看到這些東西，閉著眼睛。還有跟鄉鎮有關的，提了一大堆的地方建設，預測全臺有三分之一的鄉鎮會被消滅，我不曉得前瞻計畫跟這些事情有什麼關係，好像大家都沒看到。倒數42天臺灣進入超高齡社會，各部會有關於超高齡社會的相關前瞻計畫嗎？從目前提出來的第五期計畫裡面，我請國發會自行評估一下，這五期的前瞻基礎建設計畫有達成原先對未來國家發展的設定目標嗎？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員，我想前瞻計畫推動這些年來，對於提升國人的生活品質和均衡臺灣，例如一些偏鄉的照顧，還有一些經濟建設，例如有關半導體的研究、引進國際廠商等等，其實在這方面都有一些具體的成果。委員剛才提到……"],["吳委員春城：請問你給前瞻計畫打幾分？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：不適合由我打分數。"],["吳委員春城：你不是督導單位嗎？考核單位？錢花完了，總是要評估一下嘛！"],["詹副主任委員方冠：是，我們每年都會有年度的績效報告，最後結束以後……"],["吳委員春城：績效報告出來是幾分呢？"],["詹副主任委員方冠：績效報告應該沒有直接打分數。"],["吳委員春城：沒有打分數！如果馬斯克來的話，你覺得這邊要砍多少？OK！顯然就是沒有想法嘛！沒有想法，作為一個前瞻，但是沒有一個前瞻目標，我剛才提到了，我在看到整個超高齡社會，幾乎在所有的計畫裡面都沒有，就是很小的，都是應付的，還是用金字塔社會的思維在想這些事情，這就是國家的災難啊！整個國家的災難，在這裡所有的部會完全沒有在看這件事情。有些部會都已經響應我在倡導的壯世代，資訊月剛結束，數發部做了一個壯世代懂資樂園，出現了壯世代的人潮，過去都叫樂齡什麼資訊區，幾乎都沒人，現在用這個，但是我在看數發部新的年度預算裡面也沒有規劃這些，腦袋思維有，但是行動都沒有，希望這次的成功能夠給數發部一個勇氣，好好地來降低我們這種世代的……包括教育部也要展開第三人生大學的規劃，都可以看到這個方向，包括勞動部，高舉壯世代重返職場，很多的績效，但是最近都不願意再往前走一步，所以整個超高齡社會才是真正的前瞻，這是臺灣未來被定型的結構，這個國發會是最了解的，你們是要引導整個、要勇於發聲，在行政院裡面勇於發聲，要各部應定下KPI、定下方向，要各部會不要把這個當成枝微末節。明年2025年臺灣進入超高齡社會，請問我們的行政院有給這樣做什麼回應？有回應告訴我們國人進入超高齡社會要做什麼？請各部會在這次第五期前瞻預算當中，要把這個部分納入你的預算編列裡面。謝謝。"],["詹副主任委員方冠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員。","邱鎮軍委員用書面質詢。","接著請黃珊珊委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}