{"error":false,"id":["157249"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157249,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157249","日期":"2024-11-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會","內政委員會","經濟委員會","教育及文化委員會","交通委員會","社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-11-20T17:05:22+08:00","結束時間":"2024-11-20T17:13:52+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/be8492a9d81d8eaba78481873f3ae96c1ff0707298ac19832d069a2b6529f4f4a584b8aae4e4ec475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"17:05:22 - 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566,"end":207.657,"text":"我們在這裡已經問過很多次了你到底要多少錢是不影響中央正式運作又可以下放給地方的從這個前瞻預算就看得很清楚有這麼多錢其實本來就是地方該有的但是我們中央把錢全都掌握在手裡今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子主席長你到底算出來中央政府到底可以釋放多少垂直分配給地方政府了嗎你已經算了好幾個月了"},{"start":208.505,"end":209.146,"text":"財政部負責財政部負責"},{"start":228.662,"end":240.772,"text":"還有工程會的陳主委內政部的消防署署長我想請問一下地震跟海嘯的預警對你們的救災來說是不是很重要消防署"},{"start":245.144,"end":262.995,"text":"地震跟海嘯是我們事先要來處理的因為火災、損失跟躲避海嘯都是消防署必須要做處理的好,現在交通部有一個交通部氣象署有一個海嵐建制計畫交通部次長請上台次長,這個計畫多久了?從110年招商到現在你知道嗎?"},{"start":273.939,"end":294.127,"text":"110年招標到現在留標了10次由氣象署的地震中心他們已經招標了10次都留標而且從原來的預算25億要做800公里6個觀測站一直修正到只做200公里3個觀測站經費從25億暴增到27億到今天為止還沒有標出去剛剛講"},{"start":300.458,"end":325.265,"text":"地震很重要、預警很重要、交通部這個案子、這個海嵐線重不重要?市長你什麼都不知道是嗎?不是,我跟委員報告,那個剛講的,因為這個廠商相對廠商的專業性的部分比較少啦。是!那流標然後...110年到113年,3年了。第二個,來我今天特別請工程會的陳竺瑞。你知道這個計畫嗎?"},{"start":330.997,"end":356.306,"text":"他從25億800公里的6座觀測站修正到200公里3座的觀測站金額從25億暴增到27億項目變少金額增加這個是減相發包嗎?減相發包是合法的吧?還是不合法?減相發包也是採購法裡面的可以的方法所以我想請問一下交通部"},{"start":357.802,"end":378.361,"text":"檢像發包、修正、修正、再修正十次流標到今天為止如果今年沒有再標出去的話這個案子就要第一年的預算就要被收回了我想問一下中華民國政府對於這座海底的相關的這些電纜線我們的立場是什麼?行政院還要不要這個計畫?工程會會去協助檢討它的發包方式"},{"start":382.076,"end":407.23,"text":"所以工程會會協助已經3年多修正了兩次我要跟交通部說了一下因為我們跟地震中心我覺得他們也很可憐啊他們沒有多少人要做這麼大的計畫氣象署總共的預算才26億他要執行這個20他自己的預算才26億他一個單位要執行這麼多的預算然後全世界沒有幾家在做所有的廠商都是拿去做"},{"start":408.968,"end":411.01,"text":"〈中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第5期特別預算案),"},{"start":430.458,"end":457.503,"text":"交通部是我們來檢討不是檢討到年底就要最後一次投標沒有投的話你的錢就要第一年的錢就會被註銷了接下去要怎麼辦我想因為剛剛提到的主要是做這個做這個工程的該花的錢要花不該花的錢不要亂花這個重要的事情擺在那邊擺了流標10次是很離譜的事好不好"},{"start":458.323,"end":486.806,"text":"地震中心很認真但他們做不到交通部、工程會還有甚至我希望今天在座的國科會一起來幫忙甚至這些海底電纜對台灣還有國家安全的影響甚至國防部是不是也要來參加好嗎?交通部你可以做到一個月之內把這件事情的來龍去脈搞清楚第二個請工程會協助第三個幫忙地震中心爭取更多的預算不然就是把整個計畫重新做檢討可以嗎?"},{"start":487.455,"end":488.276,"text":"委員會主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3308,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（17時5分）謝謝主席，有請主計長、財政部國庫署署長、內政部次長、工程會陳主委、消防署署長。"],["主席：請陳主計長、陳署長、董次長、陳主委、蕭署長。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長以及各位官員，今天前瞻基礎建設其實是所謂的計畫性補助款，主計長，對吧！前瞻是不是所謂的計畫性補助款？不是！特別預算的特別補助款？中央補助地方政府很多的費用，包括公有建築物的耐震改善、重鋪道路、興建停車場、捷運建設、水環境治水，還有觀光建設，請問內政部次長，依照地方制度法，你剛剛聽到的這些項目是不是地方制度法裡面地方自治的事項？"],["董次長建宏：有一些是。"],["黃委員珊珊：大部分是，公有建築物的耐震改善絕對不會是中央應管的事項嘛！所以前瞻計畫裡面幾乎都是地方政府應該做的事，但是地方自治事項為什麼要中央來補助？因為地方沒有錢？"],["董次長建宏：不只是這樣，有些事情是基於公共利益與為了保障人民生命財產安全，所以中央可以代行之。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的理解，也就是說地方政府本來就該做的事，但是地方政府沒有錢，所以中央很好心，還去借了8,400億元的前瞻預算來給地方政府補助，這個前瞻預算到現在為止，有沒有違反事權分配原則？內政部，你是地方自治的主管機關。"],["董次長建宏：依據憲法的說明，本來地方沒有辦法執行事務，中央可以代行之，最重要的事情是，我們的目的是為了保障人民生命財產之安全，尤其是像耐震補強這部分，本來我們就應該要協助。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，這中間很簡單嘛！我國的財政收支出了問題，地方政府財源不足、財政困難，所以該做的事情由中央來補助，就像剛剛次長所說的，建築物補強竟然要中央補助，重鋪道路要中央補助，興建停車場要中央補助，這就回到我們現在財政委員會要修的財政收支劃分法，財劃法裡面讓所有的地方政府都財源不足，所以對中央政府必須搖尾乞憐，展現中央的權威，由中央來分配相關的預算，今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子。主計長，我們在這裡已經問過很多次了，到底要多少錢是不影響中央政事運作又可以下放給地方的，從前瞻預算就可以看得很清楚，有這麼多錢，其實本來就是地方該有的，但是中央把錢權都掌握在手裡，今天的前瞻預算就是最好的例子。主計長，你到底算出來中央政府到底可以釋放多少垂直分配給地方政府了嗎？你已經算了好幾個月了。"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為我是針對支出……"],["黃委員珊珊：你還是算不出來，是嗎？"],["陳主計長淑姿：我是針對支出的部分中央會影響多少，財劃法垂直或水平分配的部分，是財政部在負責。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以結論是，我覺得行政院還是很不負責任。接下來我想請問一下交通部和工程會陳主委。請問內政部消防署署長，地震和海嘯的預警對你們救災來說是不是很重要？"],["蕭署長煥章：地震跟海嘯是我們事先要來處理的地方。"],["黃委員珊珊：非常地重要，對吧！因為火災損失和躲避海嘯都是消防署必須要處理的。交通部氣象署有一個海纜建置計畫，交通部次長請上臺。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長，這個計畫多久了？從110年招商到現在，你知道嗎？110年招標到現在，流標了10次，由氣象署的地震中心已經招標10次都流標，而且從原來的預算25億元要做800公里、6個觀測站一直修正到只做200公里3個觀測站，經費從25億元暴增到27億元，到今天為止還沒有標出去。剛講了，地震很重要，預警很重要，交通部這個案子，海纜線重不重要？次長，你什麼都不知道，是嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：不是，因為具有專業性的廠商相對比較少，流標然後預算比較多……"],["黃委員珊珊：從110年到113年，3年了。我今天特別請工程會的陳主委，你知道這個計畫嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：抱歉，我並不清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：它從25億元、800公里的6座觀測站修正到200公里3座觀測站，金額從25億元暴增到27億元，項目變少、金額增加，這個是減項發包嗎？減項發包是合法的吧！還是不合法？"],["陳主任委員金德：減項發包也是採購法裡面的一種方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：請問交通部，減項發包修正、修正、再修正，10次流標到今天為止，如果今年沒有再標出去的話，這個案子第一年的預算就要被收回了。請問，中華民國政府對於海底的相關電纜線的立場是什麼？行政院還要不要這個計畫？"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會會去協助檢討它的發包方式。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以工程會會協助？已經三年多，修正了2次，我要跟交通部說一下，我覺得地震中心也很可憐，它們沒有多少人，要做這麼大的計畫，氣象署自己的預算才26億元，它一個單位要執行這麼多的預算，然後全世界沒有幾家在做，電信公司都把廠商搶走了，沒有人要做我們這個東西，所以交通部這件事情很重要，如果很重要的話，你去問問行政院要不要多給一點錢、要不要把這些前瞻的錢也拿出來幫忙一下地震中心，要不要讓行政院把這個計畫成為我們中華民國重要的計畫。"],["伍次長勝園：這我們來檢討。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是檢討，到年底就要最後一次投標了，沒有的話，你第一年的錢就會被註銷，接下去要怎麼辦？"],["伍次長勝園：主要是做這個工程的……"],["黃委員珊珊：該花的錢要花，不該花的錢不要亂花，這個重要的事情擺在那邊，流標10次是很離譜的事啊！好不好？"],["伍次長勝園：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：地震中心很認真，但是它們做不到，交通部、工程會，甚至我希望今天在座的國科會一起來幫忙，甚至這些海底電纜對臺灣還有國家安全的影響，甚至國防部是不是也要來參加。交通部你可以做到1個月之內把這件事情的來龍去脈搞清楚；第二個，請工程會協助；第三個，幫忙地震中心爭取更多的預算，不然就是把整個計畫重新做檢討，可以嗎？"],["伍次長勝園：可以，我們1個月之內檢討出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：1個月之內給我報告。"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：而且如果這次再流標，我希望工程會你們要完全重新了解它們整個過程，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員。","接著請許智傑委員，許智傑、許智傑，許智傑不在。","林淑芬、林淑芬、林淑芬，林淑芬委員不在。","廖偉翔、廖偉翔、廖偉翔，廖偉翔委員不在。","請林俊憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["陳玉珍","林德福","吳秉叡","李坤城","陳亭妃","賴瑞隆","林宜瑾","郭國文","賴惠員","賴士葆","洪孟楷","顏寬恒","萬美玲","王世堅","蘇巧慧","王美惠","張雅琳","柯志恩","王鴻薇","陳超明","陳菁徽","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","黃秀芳","吳沛憶","林月琴","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","李柏毅","張智倫","李彥秀","黃健豪","徐富癸","張宏陸","謝衣鳯","楊瓊瓔","劉建國","范雲","游顥","林倩綺","王正旭","何欣純","羅明才","鄭正鈐","王育敏","葛如鈞","邱志偉","羅廷瑋","盧縣一","吳春城","黃珊珊","林俊憲","黃國昌","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","蔡其昌","張嘉郡","陳素月","邱議瑩","葉元之","邱鎮軍","蔡易餘"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-11-20"],"gazette_id":"11310301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請相關部會首長就「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算執行情形及成效」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 5 期特別預算案\n（114年度）」（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"11310301_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}