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權責上面是檢察總長嘛我們法律人依法論法嘛請你回到憲法法庭的判決皮衣不銷毀了到底有沒有一致決限於真偽不明你們那天在台北地院的時候講得很清楚不利益是由檢方、由法院這邊來加以負擔按照憲判制的判決程序保障要求最嚴密啊一定要一致決啊"},{"start":355.1,"end":371.205,"text":"沒有一字訣沒有辦法證明有一字訣檢察總長有不提起非常上述的空間嗎如果依照憲判的意思是應該要提起好來接下來請部長針對目前現在處理的狀況檢察總長我看起來30個啊評議部已經銷毀的依法論法"},{"start":379.478,"end":397.121,"text":"檢察總長是沒有不提起非常上述的空間提起非常上述了以後依照現判制的判決這個訴訟程序恐怕有違背法令的問題那原判決就要撤銷就要重啟程序了這件事情法務部研議準備好了嗎"},{"start":399.471,"end":427.377,"text":"這部分要不要提起非常上述這還是尊重檢察總長的罪這些檢察總長要不要尊重憲法法庭的判決當然這檢察總長要先判意思對嘛所以我們剛剛講了半天法律人就是依法論法當然是檢察總長的職權嘛檢察總長的職權也不是檢察總長愛幹嘛就幹嘛檢察總長也要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊再不高興再不滿意再反對"},{"start":429.042,"end":443.435,"text":"我們活在這個體制裡面就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊現在我關心的是檢察總長提起非常上述重啟程序了以後接下來的因應法務部跟最高檢察署這邊準備好沒有這部分"},{"start":448.903,"end":467.019,"text":"有關於本部只能做就是有關於那個修法的那個一個部分依憲判意旨來做一個修法那這部分我們那個憲判意旨有提到就是有關於刑法跟那個監獄刑法的修法那這部分我們在不少請你針對問題回答啦不要移轉問題啦"},{"start":469.269,"end":484.458,"text":"修法以前你還是要按照先判制來做嘛這沒有問題嘛社會大眾現在關心的事情是提起非常上述訴訟程序違背法令重啟程序以後接下來的事情法務部跟最高檢察署準備好沒有"},{"start":487.025,"end":512.896,"text":"那這部分審判的事務應該是由司法院來做一個回應那有關你委員提到的槌尋就是本部的因應的部分那當然我們可以做到最高檢查組跟高檢署我們有跟那個最高跟高檢保持橫向聯繫、中向聯繫來密切掌握案件的一個動態嗎沒有關係啦我覺得部長某個程度上面來講啦你的憤記"},{"start":514.136,"end":533.393,"text":"有的時候守得很好所謂有的時候守得很好你覺得這個是檢察總長的事情你沒有辦法回答我尊重我尊重但是今天利用這個機會質詢是要讓部長知道可能檢察體系的人包括司法院的人心裡都要做好準備"},{"start":534.778,"end":554.753,"text":"接下來30個死刑的確定判決被撤銷重啟程序了以後所有的成本是這個國家這個社會大家共同來承擔所以我是基於善意才提醒你們接下來的程序接下來可能會造成的衝擊大家準備好了沒有"},{"start":555.714,"end":585.394,"text":"接下來下一個問題跟今天我們打詐最主要的目的就是要防止被詐騙保護被詐騙的受害人嘛我一直在追蹤IMB的案子IMB的案子從起訴以前我在協助這些被害人現在一審判決出來了那當然除了祖賢、鄭耀峰、張淑芬這兩個人以外其他的人也都被判刑了"},{"start":585.974,"end":599.2,"text":"但問題是現在被害者所面臨到的問題是什麼?曾耀峰、張淑芬、顏妙珍這一些人有一些有刑法加重詐欺被想像競合但最後還是用銀行法不法吸金罪"},{"start":600.205,"end":617.379,"text":"罪責比較高所以想像競合從一種手段都是用銀行法來判但現在問題來了他們現在在刑事訴訟要提起附帶民事訴訟的時候刑事訴訟提起附帶民事訴訟來請教刑事院庭長需要繳裁判費嗎"},{"start":618.36,"end":639.927,"text":"如果在刑事程序提起負擔民事訴訟是不用繳裁判費好 非常好但是啊 現在被害人接到了地方法院的裁定接到地方法院的裁定啊 說什麼說他們不能夠提起刑事賦名要他們補繳裁判費不能提起刑事賦名要補繳裁判費這個法律見解從哪裡來的"},{"start":641.753,"end":667.947,"text":"這個主要是他到底是直接被害人還是間接被害人刑事訴訟法就有關於附帶民事訴訟的提起有限制在直接被害人嗎目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來來來你說目前實務上的見解是直接被害人來看一看111年啊台灣高等法院法律座談他們最後的結論壓倒性的是什麼壓倒性的我唸給你看"},{"start":669.505,"end":681.795,"text":"不以所犯之罪是直接侵害個人法義違憲依照《刑事訴訟法》487條第一項規定的文義沒有限制是否法義直接或間接受害絕大多數喔"},{"start":686.539,"end":709.521,"text":"法官的見解跟剛剛廳長表示的見解不太一樣民事的那個見解是他以直接被害人為基礎的對嘛那我現在就問題就來了法律人啊法律人自己啊可以有假說、以說、秉說、聽說那在法律人自己的世界裡但我要拜託廳長、拜託司法院跳出來思考的是什麼"},{"start":710.526,"end":727.886,"text":"可不可以回到一般人在意的事情回到被害人在意的事情當我們的法院系統都已經浩浩蕩蕩找了六七十個法官喔找了六七十個法官喔"},{"start":728.723,"end":753.61,"text":"最後大家可以說是絕大多數壓倒性的共識認為不應該限於直接被害人間接被害人應該要把他含掛在裡面但問題是這樣的結論做出來了實際被害人他在地方法院還是面臨到相同的困難他現在面臨到的困難是說我一定要補繳裁判費要不然我不能請求損害賠償"},{"start":756.96,"end":778.37,"text":"我如果不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情我不補繳裁判費接下來會發生什麼事情裁定駁回就是一腳把他踢出法院的大門之外嘛你沒有錢繳裁判費裁定駁回但我們現在在討論的是詐騙的被害人"},{"start":781.107,"end":794.908,"text":"是詐騙的被害人這樣子司法實務上面的操作符合對詐騙被害人的保護嗎來請教廳長那個跟國元說明一下事實上如果他沒有錢繳裁判費那還有什麼訴訟救助可以申請"},{"start":795.99,"end":817.167,"text":"你還要他再繞一個路然後再去處理訴訟救助啊你如果這個是答案的話啦你如果這個是答案的話刑事赴民為了要保護這些被害人不用繳裁判費的這個規定就可以廢啦你全部都廢掉嘛你告訴每一個人啦去申請訴訟救助啊這個是我們面對被害人應該有的態度嗎"},{"start":823.371,"end":848.153,"text":"這個是我的問題啦當絕大多數的法官都抱持這樣的見解他們那個結論是有給司法院的你知道嗎那個民事的個案的部分我這邊不便再表示沒有先停一下啦我不會跟你談個案我再跟你談的全部都是抽象的法律原則但我們看到抽象的法律原則應該要保護詐欺的被害人"},{"start":849.665,"end":870.96,"text":"應該要便於他們求償嘛但實際上面的實踐卻不是這樣所以才請教你請教你是我希望做的事情是試圖試圖在司法體系當中不要再耗費大家的勞力時間費用如果能夠統一法令見解的話不要讓這些人很辛苦"},{"start":871.912,"end":880.849,"text":"因為他們接下來要冒的法律風險是什麼我讓你裁定駁回嘛裁定駁回以後我不服就抗告嘛抗告到上級審的法院"},{"start":882.148,"end":908.73,"text":"去討公道但問題是我們法律人出一張嘴巴講簡單我們用嘴巴講的程序都是這些被害人他們要自己付出勞力時間費用一個一個堆疊起來的等到他們真的討到正義的時候其實已經身心俱疲老實講現在已經身心俱疲這個案件拖了七年這個案件拖了七年"},{"start":910.098,"end":932.01,"text":"現在才一審判決出來什麼時候判決確定實現正義之路還遙遙無期我希望司法院回去因為這個不是我給司法院的功課這個是最後投票出來的結果我跟廳長報告其中有47個人認為根本就不應該什麼根本就不應該去採"},{"start":935.839,"end":956.161,"text":"直接背叛的見解,間接背叛也要在裡面最後的結論是建請司法院轉請最高法院研究這個司法院有收到嗎?有轉請最高法院研究嗎?那個時候我還沒來沒有關係啊你還沒來你回去跟司法院那些大官講啊"},{"start":957.706,"end":971.599,"text":"趕快統一法令見解保障這些被害人的權益因為你們如果不做當我們確定你們不做這件事情的時候立法者別無選擇下一個行動就是修法"},{"start":972.543,"end":992.91,"text":"就是修法我在法條裡面把它明定不以直接被害為限否則的話絕大多數的見解全部都已經出來了還有法官做這樣的線索解釋導致被害人欲哭無淚這個不是我們制定這些法律在保障被害人權益的初衷"},{"start":994.962,"end":1022.186,"text":"聽長可以嗎?是,謝謝委員指教你不用謝謝我指教我剛拜託你做的事情我幫被害者發聲啊是,謝謝幫他們說的話請您帶回去給司法院然後依照這些法官的建議建請最高法院趕快統一法令間接如果法令間接統一的話趕快讓地方法院的法官知道否則這樣的情況會不斷的發生啊這樣可以嗎?可以,沒問題好,謝謝好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請法務部部長以及司法院刑事廳廳長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、廳長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。有關憲法法庭針對死刑做出了判決以後，具體在執行上面，接下來要怎麼樣處理，都是社會大眾非常關心的問題。我之前在質詢的時候已經請教過了，其中針對有關死刑判決應經各級法院合議庭法官的一致決，這個是在113年憲判字第8號的主文當中清楚記載的，這樣的一個判決在實際上面的運作，過去這段時間引發相當大的討論，我在之前質詢的時候也曾經請教過，世界上到底有哪一個國家是採取這樣的立法例？司法院也沒有辦法明確的回復，但沒有辦法啦，憲法法庭做了判決以後，這個結果就是整個臺灣社會我們必須要共同承受，因此在具體的操作上，先請問一下刑事廳廳長，在憲法法庭做出這樣的判決以後，第一審如果要做死刑宣告的話，需不需要一致決？"],["李廳長釱任：需要。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果上訴到第二審，不管第二審是維持第一審的死刑判決，還是第二審把第一審非死刑的判決撤銷，改判為死刑判決，需不需要一致決？"],["李廳長釱任：需要。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣的死刑判決上訴到最高法院的時候，最高法院如果要維持死刑判決，需不需要一致決？"],["李廳長釱任：需要。"],["黃委員國昌：需要嘛，好。因此對未來在實際上面的運作，你剛剛回答得很清楚，現在大家更關心的事情是那37位現在還在牢中的死刑犯要怎麼處理的問題，憲法法庭裡面說什麼？他說，如果不符合主文第六項意旨的部分，指的就是判決要一致決，除非有證據證明各該確定終局判決係以一致決作成以外，除非你有證據可以證明都是用一致決作成，否則的話，檢察總長得提起非常上訴，憲法法庭的判決寫得很清楚。","我因為關心這個事情，所以我就開始請司法院，上一次我就請你們提供現在37位一到三審是不是有一致決，當然我們最後鎖定的是在最終審最高法院的判決結果，結果你們回給我有兩個部分，一個部分是7位評議簿還沒有銷毀的，而評議簿沒有銷毀的，你們回給我的書面答案是說，你們只是司法行政機關，沒有辦法聲請閱覽評議意見，所以只能告訴我說，評議簿還存著，但是你們看不到評議的意見，沒有辦法閱覽，但我就覺得很奇怪，你們書面回復給我的是這個樣子，但是我們召委安排到臺北地方法院考察的時候，我們事後在臺北地方法院進行座談的時候，結果你們的副秘書長就直接講，7個還留有評議簿的都有一致決，那你們的副秘書長是怎麼知道評議簿的內容？"],["李廳長釱任：這部分跟委員說明一下，這個部分不是我們去閱覽相關的評議簿，是我們透過行政管道跟最高法院聯繫，他們有回復最高檢一些相關的查詢，他們回復說，目前還有6件、7人的評議簿是保留著，目前可以用這個方式來證明是當時的一致決，所以我們用這樣衍生出來，這個部分是有一致決，以上。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我們法律人就把話講清楚，這已經判刑確定了，評議簿裡面是不是有一致決，社會大眾都很關心，你們就要公開大大方方的講，回給我的函搞得神神秘秘的，結果你們本來就知道啊，這是應秘密的事項嗎？如果這是應秘密的事項的話，最高法院讓你們副秘書長知道，那不就違反洩密罪了？"],["李廳長釱任：應該不是。"],["黃委員國昌：更嚴重的事情是30個死刑犯評議簿已經銷毀了，現在怎麼辦？"],["李廳長釱任：目前如果沒辦法證明是一致決的話，那可以由檢察總長來斟酌是否要替相關的死刑犯來提起非常上訴。"],["黃委員國昌：你說由檢察總長來斟酌，憲法法庭的判決寫得這麼清楚了，檢察總長有不提起非常上訴的空間嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：因為非常上訴是檢察總長的獨占，所以必須由他……"],["黃委員國昌：這我了解，權責上面是檢察總長，我們法律人依法論法，請你回到憲法法庭的判決，評議簿銷毀了，到底有沒有一致決，陷於真偽不明，你們那天在臺北地院的時候講得很清楚，不利益是由檢方、由法院這邊來加以負擔，按照憲判字的判決，程序保障要求最嚴密，一定要一致決，沒有一致決、沒有辦法證明有一致決，檢察總長有不提起非常上訴的空間嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：如果依照憲判的意旨是應該要提起。"],["黃委員國昌：好，接下來請部長。針對目前處理的狀況，我看起來30個評議簿已經銷毀了，依法論法，檢察總長是沒有不提起非常上訴的空間，提起非常上訴了以後，依照憲判字的判決，這個訴訟程序恐怕有違背法令的問題啊，原判決就要撤銷，就要重啟程序了，這件事情法務部研議、準備好了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分要不要提起非常上訴，這還是尊重檢察總長的這些……"],["黃委員國昌：檢察總長要不要尊重憲法法庭的判決？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然，檢察總長要依憲判意旨……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我們剛剛講了半天，法律人就是依法論法，當然是檢察總長的職權嘛，檢察總長的職權也不是檢察總長愛幹嘛就幹嘛，檢察總長也要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊！再不高興、再不滿意、再反對，我們活在這個體制裡面，就是要尊重憲法法庭的判決啊！現在我關心的是，檢察總長提起非常上訴，重啟程序了以後，接下來的因應，法務部跟最高檢察署這邊準備好沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部能做的就只是有關於修法的那個部分，依憲判的意旨來做修法，憲判意旨有提到關於刑法跟監獄行刑法的修法，這部分我們再……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請你針對問題回答啦！不要移轉問題啦！修法以前你還是要按照憲判字來做，這沒有問題嘛！社會大眾現在關心的事情是提起非常上訴，訴訟程序違背法令，重啟程序以後，接下來的事情，法務部跟最高檢察署準備好沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：審判的事務應該是由司法院來做一個回應，至於委員垂詢有關本部因應的部分，當然我們可以做到最高檢察署跟高檢署保持橫向聯繫、縱向聯繫，來密切掌握案件的動態。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我覺得部長某個程度上面來講，你的分際有的時候守得很好，所謂有的時候守得很好，你覺得這個是檢察總長的事情，你沒有辦法回答，我尊重！但是今天利用這個機會質詢，是要讓部長知道，可能檢察體系的人，包括司法院的人，心裡都要做好準備，接下來30個死刑的確定判決被撤銷，重啟程序了以後，所有的成本是這個國家、這個社會，大家共同來承擔，所以我是基於善意才提醒你們，接下來的程序、接下來可能會造成的衝擊，大家準備好了沒有？","接下來下一個問題，今天我們打詐最主要的目的就是要防止被詐騙，保護被詐騙的受害人，我一直在追蹤im.B的案子，im.B的案子從起訴以前，我就在協助這些被害人，現在一審判決出來了，當然除了主嫌曾耀鋒、張淑芬這兩個人以外，其他的人也都被判刑了。但問題是現在被害者所面臨到的問題是什麼？曾耀鋒、張淑芬、顏妙真這些人有一些有刑法加重詐欺被想像競合，但最後還是用銀行法不法吸金罪，罪責比較高，所以想像競合從一重處斷，都是用銀行法來判。但現在問題來了，針對他們現在刑事訴訟要提起附帶民事訴訟的時候，來，請教刑事廳廳長，需要繳裁判費嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：如果在刑事程序提起附帶民事訴訟是不用繳裁判費。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常好，但是現在被害人接到地方法院的裁定，接到地方法院的裁定說什麼？說他們不能夠提起刑事附民，要他們補繳裁判費，不能提起刑事附民，要補繳裁判費，這個法律見解從哪裡來的？"],["李廳長釱任：這個主要是他到底是直接被害人還是間接被害人的區別。"],["黃委員國昌：刑事訴訟法就有關於附帶民事訴訟的提起，有限制在直接被害人嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：目前實務上見解是直接被害人。"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，你說目前實務上的見解是直接被害人，來，看一看，111年臺灣高等法院法律座談，他們最後的結論，壓倒性的是什麼，壓倒性的我唸給你聽：不以所犯之罪是直接侵害個人法益為限，依照刑事訴訟法第四百八十七條第一項規定的文義，沒有限制是否法益直接或間接受害；絕大多數法官的見解跟剛剛廳長表示的見解不太一樣。"],["李廳長釱任：剛剛民事那個見解是它以直接被害人為基礎。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那我現在問題就來了，法律人自己可以有甲說、乙說、丙說、丁說，那在法律人自己的世界裡，但我要拜託廳長、拜託司法院跳出來思考的是什麼？可不可以回到一般人在意的事情、回到被害人在意的事情？當我們的法院系統都已經浩浩蕩蕩找了六、七十個法官，最後大家可以說是絕大多數壓倒性的共識，認為不應該限於直接被害人，間接被害人應該要把他含括在裡面，但問題是這樣的結論做出來了，實際被害人在地方法院還是面臨到相同的困難，他現在面臨到的困難是一定要補繳裁判費，要不然不能請求損害賠償，如果不補繳裁判費，接下來會發生什麼事情？不補繳裁判費，接下來會發生什麼事情？"],["李廳長釱任：民事的部分會裁定駁回。"],["黃委員國昌：裁定駁回就是一腳把他踢出法院的大門之外嘛！你沒有錢繳裁判費，裁定駁回！但我們現在在討論的是詐騙的被害人，這樣子司法實務上面的操作符合對詐騙被害人的保護嗎？來，請教廳長。"],["李廳長釱任：跟委員說明一下，事實上如果他沒有錢繳裁判費，還有訴訟救助可以申請。"],["黃委員國昌：你還要他再繞一個路，然後再去處理訴訟救助喔？"],["李廳長釱任：目前的規定是這個樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：你如果這個是答案的話，刑事附民，為了要保護這些被害人，不用繳裁判費的這個規定就可以廢啦！你全部都廢掉嘛！你告訴每一個人，去申請訴訟救助，這個是我們面對被害人應該有的態度嗎？這個是我的問題。當絕大多數的法官都抱持這樣的見解，他們那個結論是有給司法院的，你知道嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：民事個案的部分，我這邊不便再表示其他意見，但是我們會把它帶回去。"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，我不會跟你談個案，我在跟你談的全部都是抽象的法律原則，但我們看到抽象的法律原則應該要保護詐欺的被害人，應該要便於他們求償，但實際上的實踐卻不是這樣，所以才請教你，我希望做的事情是試圖在司法體系當中不要再耗費大家的勞力、時間、費用，如果能夠統一法令見解的話，不要讓這些人很辛苦啦！因為他們接下來要冒的法律風險是什麼？我讓你裁定駁回，裁定駁回以後，我不服就抗告嘛！抗告到上級審的法院去討公道嘛！但問題是我們法律人出一張嘴巴講得很簡單，我們用嘴巴講的程序都是這些被害人他們要自己付出勞力、時間、費用，一個一個堆疊起來的，等到他們真的討到正義的時候，其實已經身心俱疲啊！老實講啦！現在已經身心俱疲了，這個案件拖了七年，現在才一審判決出來，什麼時候判決確定？實現正義之路還遙遙無期！我希望司法院回去……因為這個不是我給司法院的功課，這個是最後投票出來的結果。我跟廳長報告，其中有47個人認為根本就不應該採直接被害的見解，間接被害也要在裡面，最後的結論是建請司法院轉請最高法院研究，這個司法院有收到嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：有收到。"],["黃委員國昌：有轉請最高法院研究嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：那個時候我還沒來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊！你還沒來，你回去……"],["李廳長釱任：是，我們會去了解。"],["黃委員國昌：跟司法院那些大官講，趕快統一法令見解，保障這些被害人的權益，因為如果你們不做，當我們確定你們不做這件事情的時候，立法者別無選擇，下一個行動就是修法，我會在法條裡明定不以直接被害為限，否則絕大多數的見解全部都已經出來了，還有法官做這樣的限縮解釋，導致被害人欲哭無淚，這不是我們制定這些法律以保障被害人權益的初衷。廳長，可以嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用謝謝我指教，我剛剛拜託你做的事情……"],["李廳長釱任：我們會把這個問題帶回去……"],["黃委員國昌：我幫被害者發聲……"],["李廳長釱任：是，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：幫他們說的話，請您帶回去給司法院，然後依照這些法官的建議，建請最高法院趕快統一法令見解，如果法令見解統一的話，也趕快讓地方法院的法官知道，否則這樣的情況會不斷的發生，可以嗎？"],["李廳長釱任：可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請謝龍介委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":312,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-15","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","謝龍介","林思銘","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","徐巧芯","羅智強","陳培瑜","林淑芬","翁曉玲","洪孟楷","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","沈發惠","傅崐萁"],"page_start":215,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院、法務部部長、內政部部長、內政部警政署署長、內政部移民署署長、勞動部、數位\n發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會、行政院打擊詐欺指揮中心、金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位\n列席就「如何遏止移工及青少年淪為詐騙集團工具，及打詐四法施行後相關子法及配套措施進度\n與具體成效之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"11310401_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}