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機關署署長請回沒問題你們再進行部長某個FB的匿名粉專公開貼文提到貴部的他用市長某市長霸凌所屬的無良長官不分平假日下屬要安扣我也收到類似的檢舉"},{"start":95.612,"end":115.29,"text":"部長你要不要查這件事情我等一下把這張給你就是在捲舉衛福部的我們立即來瞭解你要不要來處理這件事情當然要處理麻煩劉玉娟主秘請上台謝謝玉娟主秘"},{"start":123.225,"end":140.599,"text":"請問是不是真有此事你有沒有自己早早下班讓下屬幫你看門要求下屬24小時安扣以及跟類似這個霸凌下屬的行為請您自己說明我沒有請過同人要加班或是假日要來上班沒有一次都沒有過"},{"start":142.489,"end":145.812,"text":"報告委員因為我裡面有看一下他好像是說最近才調來的司長我們的司長沒有新任的"},{"start":162.129,"end":180.858,"text":"我們的司長,現在有一間司長已經...部長,坦護是不會有好結果不是坦護,就是說我們想瞭解一下,可能...我想說部長,那您就回去調查,但是我想聽主秘,您說您完全沒有這個類似的...他說此人空降司長數月"},{"start":184.484,"end":200.076,"text":"我收到的檢舉是這樣的我收到檢舉立委這兩天每個立委都收到一堆檢舉每個立委都收的太多檢舉了因為咪兔事件延燒了那請你說明一下沒關係只要有任何的信息我會交人事處"},{"start":203.379,"end":221.619,"text":"主席不能講話嗎你就是說沒有對不對你就是一句話就是沒有提到執政黨空降愛將你覺得你自己有沒有讓部主被霸凌的感覺我沒有請同仁過來你沒有覺得你有被讓屬下有被你霸凌的感覺我瞭解"},{"start":222.92,"end":236.232,"text":"我們的這些主管其實都是長久的部長這個是兩回事部長請讓公務員你會去調查請讓公務員願意講真話的方式去調查你有智慧來了解我們在調查的程序有這樣的一個匿名"},{"start":242.594,"end":272.174,"text":"那我當然覺得說不只是衛福部啦我希望所有的行政機關都能夠這個主管都沒有在職場類似霸凌的行為讓員工們能夠好好的做事安心有專業的為國家付出嘛部長那就是請你記得這件事部長我們來談百億癌藥基金現在預注了50億元到健保基金叫做癌症心要暫時性支付款項專款專用部長您知道請您回答這個基金這個專款的目的是什麼"},{"start":272.754,"end":298.7,"text":"目的其實就是希望這個部份我們希望能夠來我意思是說專管的目的就是加速嘛加速是該用的藥嘛那這樣的話但是我要我了解現在新藥的審查方式就是先過專家會議然後再共鳴會嘛那這當中還有很多要處理的事來來回的意見跟意見"},{"start":300.16,"end":316.629,"text":"是那要不少時間那據我瞭解本週一提出的這個作業在癌症性要暫時性支付款的過程審查過程跟現在一模一樣現在是要審查一模一樣那這樣真的能加快嗎部長這樣真的能加速嗎你如果步驟跟以前都一樣真的能加速嗎"},{"start":317.674,"end":332.656,"text":"怎麼加速步驟一模一樣啊經過的過程這個關卡都一模一樣啊那如果沒有辦法加速那這個專款就是虛晃一招啊委員可不可以我請那個署署長跟你說明一下"},{"start":333.613,"end":358.974,"text":"跟委員報告這裡面有幾個加速的關鍵第一個就是說我們就啟動了這個平行審查機制就是他可以在那個申請我知道你瞭解但是我們現在要等著看他的結果啦好不好就是說我有一些建議因為這個是公務特別預算嘛部長是不是特別編出來的嘛特別目的嘛那他一定要經過共你會討論嗎"},{"start":361.478,"end":381.526,"text":"跟委員報告當然這一關卡很麻煩的對但是呢因為這個預算的本身還是在健保基金裡面那我們當然是還是尊重啦不過我們可以加速因為他的預算比較多了那主長您進來回答那我們可不可能把它當報告案報告過去就好了因為這是特別的"},{"start":382.006,"end":382.167,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":397.546,"end":418.917,"text":"我們覺得是應該考慮要直播現在是片片斷斷剪來剪去不是真相這是第一個就是請你們快速研議夠你會直播的可能性讓大家每個人為他自己講話負責任真的有困難就讓大家知道這個都是大家都可以做還有病人練習的部分可不可能成為正式代表就是病人代表的部分那一次是這樣做的"},{"start":419.697,"end":430.254,"text":"我們現在有徵詢這個請健保會推薦屬於這個非醫療服務提供者的代表來加入到這個共理會議正式代表部長你還記得這本書嗎健康達人125"},{"start":434.961,"end":440.846,"text":"我們兩個是第一第二作者這本書當時出版的目的就是回歸健保只是要不給付當時侯署長是先把維他命類的跟這個胃藥民眾說胃藥我們說致酸劑先排除但是要處理一些一般感冒藥的時候遇到一些障礙"},{"start":459.361,"end":476.12,"text":"當時侯書長交代說我們要先做民眾的教育自我健康的照顧所以要先有一本類似這樣的書所以我們是這樣做出來的自我用的部分那四個月前我們的附帶決議當中有這個部分只是要這個就是推出健保給付等等"},{"start":477.561,"end":495.395,"text":"那時候我們講好3個月,現在4個月過去了,怎麼樣進度?有研議你一定執懲,因為這個要盡量我們是站在保護民眾健康的一個,這是最高原則之下,我們去爭取大家的意見,類似執懲"},{"start":496.796,"end":496.836,"text":"陳昭姿議員"},{"start":517.684,"end":532.286,"text":"其實我們要全面讓大家說就是說都回到立刻回到這個社區但是如果每個人每年少一次看病你們自己說的啊可以少300億啊這個錢就拿來處理心要處理重大疾病真的大缺口部分都可以處理啊"},{"start":533.247,"end":550.921,"text":"所以是不是說這個有關在附帶決議的部分那再請你處理一下主席再給我一點時間因為現在很多這個我們衛福部努力在推動這個居家安寧照護計畫居家安寧照護計畫那透過疼痛的控制減緩身體不適可以讓末期的病人的生命品質"},{"start":551.661,"end":552.001,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":574.204,"end":600.355,"text":"我想我一個安寧的老兵這三十年來就是在處理這件事情他是透過社區健保特約藥局來做的很感謝藥局來協助但是他們做準備跟交付藥品才能順利做但是這個現在有一些問題我簡單跟部長講部長現在這個特約藥局大概有7600家您可以猜想嗎有多少家加入了這個這麼重要的計畫呢"},{"start":602.705,"end":613.693,"text":"大概有多少家?7600家當中有多少家加入的呢?大概有100家左右啦!不然這有57間而已啦!連1%都沒有啦!這麼低的原因跟很多的問題有關啦!大概就幾個問題!健保給付的點數是有改進空間的!第二個這個因為這個管制藥品管理非常嚴格嘛!違反這個銷毀程序!罰額很高喔!在15到75萬!那要是在回收的過程當中如果不小心破損了"},{"start":631.946,"end":659.927,"text":"他至少也要罰15萬以上不合比例啊而且那個食藥署的管制藥品管制工廠轉嫁成本到藥局導致藥局在執行這個成本過高譬如說藥局跟這個製藥工廠訂定這個這個管制藥品的時候油費手續費匯費廢片記錄管理管制藥品廢棄物清潔費過期報銷費等等都有藥局來承擔啊你這樣叫他們你做功德就算了你還讓他額外付出"},{"start":660.447,"end":666.433,"text":"所以這個部分是不是可以一個月內做一個檢討因為你要鼓勵居家安寧照護那你要讓社區藥局能夠配合你又管這麼嚴讓他嚇死了對不對疼痛的共識對居家安寧的病人是非常重要的這個社區藥局不斷的來跟我澄清這件事一定有一段時間我們管制藥品當然要嚴格怎麼樣嚴格之下"},{"start":684.051,"end":684.211,"text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":74,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時16分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。你有關注昨天在衛環委員會的質詢嗎？有？沒有？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我昨天在財政委員會，全程在……"],["陳委員昭姿：就疾管署，報紙的報導已經是沸沸揚揚，疾管署也傳出有土皇帝組長霸凌組員，這件事您知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有這樣的新聞出來。我們也立即在處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。請問部長，除了疾管署之外，衛福部內有沒有其他單位有類似的情形？"],["邱部長泰源：只要有任何的訊息，我們一定去查。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果你收到檢舉，你會不會處理？"],["邱部長泰源：當然會處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為卓院長昨天說了要徹查喔！那部長你要怎麼查？"],["邱部長泰源：我們就會啟動……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要被動嗎？還是要先主動去了解？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有訊息，我們一定先去了解它的來源，以及我們會用最嚴格的規定來進行，基本上都會……像疾管署這個我們會用……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，疾管署署長請回，沒問題，你們在進行……","部長，某個FB的匿名粉專公開貼文，提到貴部的某司長是「霸凌所屬的無良長官、不分平假日下屬要on call」，我也收到類似的檢舉。部長要不要查這件事情？我等一下把這張給您。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：就是在檢舉衛福部的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：我們立即來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要不要來處理這件事情？"],["邱部長泰源：當然要處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。那麻煩劉玉娟主秘請上臺，謝謝。玉娟主秘，請問是不是真有此事，你有沒有自己早早下班，讓下屬幫你看門、要求下屬24小時on call，以及類似霸凌下屬的行為？請您自己說明。"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：我沒有請過同仁要加班，或是假日要來上班，沒有，一次都沒有過。"],["陳委員昭姿：你都沒有這樣子做過？"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這個放在FB上的檢舉文，還有我收到的部分，我會交給部長。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為我有看一下裡面，他好像是說最近才調來的司長，我們的司長沒有新任的啊！像劉玉娟司長已經不曉得……"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：我已經……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長、部長，袒護是不會有好結果的。"],["邱部長泰源：不是袒護啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：昨天我們已經都示範過了。"],["邱部長泰源：就是說我們想了解一下，可能……"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：這好像不是我的司，不是我的……"],["陳委員昭姿：我想部長，那您就回去調查。但是我想聽主秘說，您說您完全沒有類似的行為……"],["邱部長泰源：他說「此人空降司長數月」……"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：這個好像不是我。"],["陳委員昭姿：我收到的檢舉是這樣的。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們……"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：不是我，對，我確定，不是……"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，我收到檢舉。這兩天大家、每個立委都收到一堆檢舉，每個立委都收到太多檢舉了，像MeToo事件延燒了。"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：這是之前的一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：那請你說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，只要有任何的訊息，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：你讓主秘講一下，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我也會叫人事處馬上去處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：主秘不能講話嗎？你就是說沒有，對不對？你就是一句話，就是沒有？"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：是，因為他有提到執政黨空降的愛將，這應該不是我。"],["陳委員昭姿：你覺得你自己有沒有過讓部屬有被霸凌的感覺……"],["劉主任秘書玉娟：我沒有請同仁過來假日加班或幹嘛，對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你沒有覺得你讓屬下有被你霸凌的感覺。好，我了解。請回座。"],["邱部長泰源：我們的這些主管其實都是長久以來擔任……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長你要……這是兩回事。好，部長，你願意去調查，你讓公務員用願意講真話的方式去調查，你有智慧來了解，就是你看要怎麼去調查真相。"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們在調查的程序有這樣一個匿名的……"],["陳委員昭姿：然後吹哨者保護法已經箭在弦上了。當然我覺得不只是衛福部，我希望所有行政機關的主管都沒有在職場有類似霸凌的行為，讓員工們能夠好好做事，安心有尊嚴地為國家付出。"],["邱部長泰源：這也是我們追求的目標，跟委員一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，那就是請你記得這件事。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們來談百億癌藥基金，現在挹注了50億元到健保基金，叫做「癌症新藥暫時性支付專款」，專款專用。請您回答，這個專款的目的是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：目的其實就是希望……"],["陳委員昭姿：一句話。"],["邱部長泰源：unmet medical need這個部分，我們希望能夠來……"],["陳委員昭姿：我的意思是，專款的目的就是加速……"],["邱部長泰源：加速。"],["陳委員昭姿：該用的藥嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：嗯。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，這樣子的話，但是我要了解，現在新藥的審查方式就是經過專家會議，然後再經共擬會議，這當中還有很多要處理的事情、來來回回的意見和議價。"],["邱部長泰源：委員是這方面的專家。"],["陳委員昭姿：那要不少時間。據我了解，本週一提出的作業，「癌症新藥暫時性支付專款」的審查過程，跟現在的新藥審查一模一樣，這樣真的能加快嗎？部長，這樣真的能加速嗎？你如果步驟跟以前都一樣，真的能加速嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想我們不只步驟，我們有成立更多的……"],["陳委員昭姿：怎麼加速？步驟一模一樣啊！經過的過程、關卡都一模一樣。如果沒有辦法加速，這個專款就是虛晃一招、應付了事！"],["邱部長泰源：委員，可不可以容許我請石署長跟你說明一下？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這裡面有幾個加速的關鍵，第一個，我們啟動了平行審查機制，就是它可以在申請……"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，不好意思，我知道您了解，但是我們現在要等著看它的結果，好不好？"],["石署長崇良：是。好，我們會努力調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：我有一些建議，因為這個是公務特別預算，部長，是不是？特別編出來的，有特別目的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：那它一定要經過共擬會討論嗎？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，當然這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：這一個關卡很麻煩的。"],["石署長崇良：對，但因為這個預算本身還是在健保基金裡面，那我們當然是……"],["陳委員昭姿：您認為還……"],["石署長崇良：還是尊重，不過我們可以加速，因為它的預算比較多了，可以加速。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，署長您既然回答了，那我們可不可能把它當報告案，報告過去就好了？"],["石署長崇良：可以、可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為這是特別的。"],["石署長崇良：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：就不需要再討論了。"],["石署長崇良：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：另外我想就這個時間，剛好也跟兩位署長建議，我認為共擬會應該要直播，是不是從衛福部開始，因為先進國家任何重要的會議，攸關人民權益的會議，其實包括疫苗審查的時候，我們覺得是應該考慮要直播，現在是片片斷斷剪來剪去，不是真相，這是第一個，就是請你們快速研議共擬會直播的可能性，讓大家、每個人為他自己講的話負責任，真的有困難就讓大家知道，這個都是可以做的。","還有病人列席的部分，可不可能成為正式代表？就是病人代表的部分，NICE是這樣做的啊！"],["石署長崇良：我們現在有徵詢，請健保會推薦屬於非醫療服務提供者的代表加入共擬會議，有。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，正式代表。"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。部長，你還記得這本書嗎？「健康達人125」，我們兩個……"],["邱部長泰源：有啊！謝謝陳委員過去一直對這本……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們兩個是第一、第二作者。"],["邱部長泰源：國民健康宣導。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們兩個是第一、第二作者。這本書當時出版的目的就是為了回歸健保的指示藥不給付，當時侯署長是先把維他命類的和胃藥……我們說制酸劑，先排除。但是要處理一些一般感冒藥的時候，遇到一些障礙，所以當時侯署長交代我們要先做好民眾的教育，做好自我健康的照護，要先有一本類似這樣的書，所以我們是這樣做出來的，「自我用藥」的部分。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：4個月前，我們的附帶決議當中有這個部分，指示藥退出健保給付等等，那時候我們講好是3個月。部長，現在4個月過去了，有沒有進度？"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們擬訂……"],["陳委員昭姿：有沒有進度啊？"],["邱部長泰源：有研議、擬訂時程，因為這個要儘量……我們是站在保護民眾健康的一個……這是最高原則之下，我們去爭取大家的意見及列出時程。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我現在看到這個公文，公文上面寫「取消指示藥給付時程」，這是違法給付，不是取消啦！是要回歸、要回歸啦！部長，我再講一下，指示藥看起來只有一、二十億，但是現在每人每年看病是17到18次，你們之前都說過大家減少看一次，其實我沒有要全面讓大家立刻回到社區，但是如果每人每年少一次看病，你們自己說的，可以少300億啊！這個錢就拿來處理新藥、處理重大疾病，現在大缺口的部分都可以處理，是不是有關在附帶決議的部分，再請您處理一下？","主席，再給我一點時間，因為現在衛福部努力在推動居家安寧照護計畫，透過疼痛的控制減緩身體不適，讓末期病人的生命品質提升，還有家屬照顧得很辛苦，生活品質也可以改善，我們兩個的背景都知道一、二級管制藥品在安寧照護中的重要性，很重要的止痛藥嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，您知道現在病人或家屬要取得管制藥品有多困難嗎？是怎麼取得的嗎？就是居家安寧照護計畫，您知道他怎麼取得這個藥品嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想以一個安寧的老兵，這三十年來就是在處理這件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，好，他是透過社區健保特約藥局來做的。"],["邱部長泰源：很感謝藥局來協助，很感謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：對，但是他們做準備跟交付藥品才能順利做好，但是現在有一些問題，我簡單跟部長講，部長，現在特約藥局大概有7,600家，您可以猜想有多少家加入這個重要的計畫呢？大概有多少家？7,600家當中有多少家加入呢？"],["邱部長泰源：大概有一百家左右。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，才57家而已，連百分之一都沒有啦！這麼低的原因跟很多問題有關，就幾個問題，健保給付的點數是有改進空間的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：第二個，因為管制藥品管理非常嚴格，違反銷燬程序罰額很高，在15到75萬元；如果在回收的過程當中不小心破損了，至少也要罰15萬元以上，不合比例啊！而且食藥署的藥品管制工廠轉嫁成本到藥局，導致藥局在執行這個成本過高，譬如藥局跟製藥工廠訂購管制藥品的時候，郵費、手續費、匯費、廢片記錄管理、管制藥品廢棄物清潔費、過期報銷費等等都由藥局來承擔，你做功德就算了，你還讓他額外付出，所以這個部分是不是可以一個月內做一個檢討？"],["邱部長泰源：好、好。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為你要鼓勵這個居家安寧照護……"],["邱部長泰源：了解、了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要讓社區藥局能夠配合，你管這麼嚴，讓他嚇死了對不對，怎麼來支援？"],["邱部長泰源：對，疼痛的控制對居家安寧的病人是非常重要的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個社區藥局不斷的來跟我陳情這件事，已經有一段時間了，我希望……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，管制藥品當然要嚴格，怎麼樣嚴格之下……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是要怎麼樣做？"],["邱部長泰源：比較合理的。"],["陳委員昭姿：比較符合比例的給付。"],["邱部長泰源：讓民眾能夠得到最好的照顧。"],["陳委員昭姿：也不應該都轉嫁到社區藥局嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：既然這是配合國家計畫來處理。好，謝謝部長，我把這張交給您，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員，謝謝部長。","部長，那個疫苗的施打也是一樣啊！都叫醫院、診所自己負擔所有管銷，冷氣、空調壞掉都要自己賠，一起來研議，昭姿委員都替藥局講話，我也要幫診所講些話。","接續請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}