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"},{"start":1957.011,"end":1980.786,"text":"再來第8位是續聯資安公司的郭崇信總經理歡迎您第9位再來是法務部司法官學院我們的蔡碧玉前院長歡迎您再來是簽信法律事務所的李怡光律師歡迎您"},{"start":1983.395,"end":2008.501,"text":"再來是來自於與和聯合法律事務所的蔡學怡律師歡迎您剛剛到場是我們時代法律事務所的張君倫律師歡迎您目前上有邀請的學者專家代表尚未到的我們到了後會來補充介紹接下來依次來介紹"},{"start":2010.649,"end":2039.967,"text":"委員目前就是我到場了那接下來陸續委員到場之後我們再安排有委員穿插來發言接下來介紹列席的政府機關代表目前我就依照我們的名單上的順序首先介紹是法務部常務次長黃謀信次長歡迎您再來是司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信齊副廳長那再來介紹我們行政院打擊詐欺辦公室李憲明主任歡迎您"},{"start":2041.345,"end":2066.313,"text":"另外來自經濟部商業發展署 劉雅娟副署長 歡迎您來自數位發展部數位產業署 呂振華署長 歡迎您來自金融監督管理委員會銀行局侯立揚主任秘書 歡迎您以及證券期貨局上光祺主任秘書"},{"start":2068.697,"end":2085.347,"text":"另外介紹國家通訊傳播委員會基礎設施處處長陳春木處長歡迎您以及法律事務處的陳昭盧科長歡迎您以及平台事業管理處的廖敏全科長歡迎您"},{"start":2086.448,"end":2113.477,"text":"以及北區監理處的王志遠檢任濟政謝謝接下來我們介紹個人資料保護委員會籌備處李仕德李主任歡迎您以及內政部警政署刑事警察局黃仁聰副局長歡迎您那內政部移民署移民事務組的副組長曹固齡副組長歡迎您"},{"start":2116.806,"end":2117.226,"text":"請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱"},{"start":2144.956,"end":2169.146,"text":"討論提綱一新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版執行至今對打詐是否具有成效目前議政擬定打詐專法草案應在納入哪些方向二盤點各部會現行打詐相關法令與實務運作上有何礙處如以證券投資信託及顧問法為例即應社群平台無主動協助責任致使警政機關"},{"start":2170.026,"end":2170.306,"text":"好那今天"},{"start":2200.049,"end":2210.76,"text":"本院司法法制委員會特別召開此公聽會目的就是回應社會各界國人對於詐欺犯行的嚴重關切"},{"start":2212.236,"end":2237.378,"text":"也造成我們臺灣社會相當大的集體不安因此特別邀集各界的學者專家代表希望能夠提供意見供目前行政院正在推動的打詐專法的研擬作為參考未來本委員會也會在審理相關法案的時候將各位學者專家業界代表的意見納入審查慎著"},{"start":2239.582,"end":2239.642,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2256.916,"end":2273.583,"text":"在邀請各位發言之前首先請學者專家先發言發言順序依照先到先後順序目前看起來在第5位發言完畢應該在10點前如果需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況著與調整"},{"start":2274.904,"end":2302.612,"text":"本會議委員：按照登記先後順序發言：如果陸續到場本席會安排請委員發言：最後再請政府機關代表發言：針對學者專家以及委員的意見加以回應與會者請至發言臺發言：在主席右手邊的為學者專家列席機關代表的發言臺我左手邊的就為委員的發言臺由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界意見"},{"start":2303.332,"end":2303.572,"text":"許華福教授"},{"start":2342.949,"end":2363.646,"text":"主席還有我們與會的政府代表還有民間代表還有很多專家學者大家早我很榮幸可以來參加這個詐欺犯罪的一個立法跟各部會打詐的一個盤點的公聽會我想我是國立中正大學犯罪防制學系許華福許教授"},{"start":2364.546,"end":2381.643,"text":"我沒有做PPT但是我有把我的書面資料都放在這樣的一個書面資料檔裡面我想第一個議題是有關於新世代打擊詐欺的行動綱領1.5版是否具有成效 是不是要擬定專法 有哪些方向"},{"start":2382.344,"end":2385.426,"text":"在去年頒布新世代打擊的行動綱領1.5版以市詐、堵詐、防詐、懲詐為面向以三檢的目標全面降低詐欺犯罪是非常重要的議題"},{"start":2402.677,"end":2403.057,"text":"中正大學犯罪防治學系﹚"},{"start":2430.502,"end":2447.062,"text":"做一些統計 有關於我們在整個刑事偵辦的部分我們的竊盜犯罪是下降 暴力犯罪也是下降毒品犯罪是持平 但是有來看這10年的發展裡頭"},{"start":2448.844,"end":2455.83,"text":"我們的詐欺犯罪大概成長從2013到2023這十年間我們大概成長了大概一成五左右嫌疑犯的話來到三成左右這都是雙雙來到我們近十年的新高點那顯見我們的詐欺犯罪是相當的一個嚴重"},{"start":2469.561,"end":2471.083,"text":"詐欺犯罪前五名 投資詐騙 解除分歧付款詐騙"},{"start":2491.204,"end":2492.865,"text":"網拍、購物詐騙、愛情詐騙這是我們做的一個比例如果看資料的話可以看出這樣的一個數據從這邊來看的話我們打詐的專法涵蓋的面向其實是相當的好"},{"start":2508.813,"end":2512.278,"text":"詐欺犯罪加重詐欺犯罪及首謀"},{"start":2525.075,"end":2541.882,"text":"我們除了將人物跟犯罪類型進行分類以外我們是不是應該要將犯罪的金額我這邊建議是將金額納入我們考量量刑的依據如果分這四個層面來看的話我們在像我自己有出版跨境詐騙的專書"},{"start":2543.724,"end":2559.126,"text":"在整個跨境裡面的這樣一個詐欺犯罪的組織的流程還有這個角色裡面有分金主聯絡負責任還有化物、機房、系統商還有金流商那這金流商裡面還有分車手還有洗錢"},{"start":2560.027,"end":2586.598,"text":"還有這些地下會隊等等的那我不曉得我們如果分這四個等級的話那這個組織犯罪裡面的這些角色是不是也要做一個區分如果去定義它是首謀還是一般的這樣一個部分那第二個就是說在第六條所陳列有關於嫌疑犯罪嫌疑人除了依證據保護的第四條規範以外可以追回他犯罪所得免除起刑"},{"start":2587.598,"end":2614.78,"text":"但是我們必須要考量免除期刑的刑者是否能夠大於他的犯罪守得我們以犯罪學的理性選擇理論來看的話那如果判的罪無法大於他犯罪利益的話我們很難將整個組織背後的這些守謀或者是這些運作的人揪出來所以我建議在量刑部分的第3條跟第4條的量刑應該給予適當的一個嚇阻的量刑的基準我們的第6條才能夠發揮功能"},{"start":2616.821,"end":2621.483,"text":"第8條規範數位中立服務提供者來協助詐欺組織犯罪防制義務的責任是我們打詐的一個進步的亮點在法條當中規範中介服務者應該立即提供服務"},{"start":2633.267,"end":2661.922,"text":"我們可以發現說其實在網路世界我們現在是一個資訊的世界那數位中介服務的重點就在即時性和利民性那我們必須要對於這些中介的服務者要刻意相關的義務和責任那對於這個中介服務者是不是要透過這個還有提供這個服務金融業者我想應該要把這個包容進來在背後的這種金融服務者我想也是考量的一個重點"},{"start":2662.742,"end":2663.943,"text":"金融、投資證券、投信、顧問法等平台上,在犯罪偵查階段,數位通訊軟體的監聽相當難以突破"},{"start":2680.614,"end":2703.87,"text":"科技偵查工具的使用沒有法源依據我們很容易因為非正當程序取得的資料而失去證據力這是第一個部分再來我們向上溯源的偵查起源在犯罪組織斷點的設置斷點的設置通常都是用通訊軟體為主通訊軟體的法律沒有具體法源依據我們再配合警察在第一個時間偵辦的話也會錯失所謂的上溯源的時機"},{"start":2711.415,"end":2734.204,"text":"金融查緝的困難與由於層層的轉匯,我們難以追查金融的一個動向加上金融單位配合時效會來不及,那如果跨境轉匯的話,其實會有一些困難就包含說我們現在有虛擬貨幣跟第三支付管理沒有落實,還有相關規範不完整那這種金融會對很容易成為犯罪的一個工具,這是第一個部分"},{"start":2735.004,"end":2736.365,"text":"金融詐賭 被詐騙人頭警示護書 先撥165 金融反罪 詐騙協調金融機構執行組織會議"},{"start":2752.657,"end":2773.27,"text":"到人頭賬戶裡頭的這些通報警示那這個資料如果在金融機構執行過慢的話這個人頭賬戶錢其實都已經匯出去了那這是第二點那還有所謂的第三支付跟電子行動支付的崛起那第一個就是我們不判不明的情況下也容易成為這個詐欺犯罪的利用的一個工具"},{"start":2774.35,"end":2776.272,"text":"現在我們在監獄裡我自己是假設委員會我發現有一個很有趣的數據一直前科前面的第一個犯罪是所謂的販毒有時候都判20幾年"},{"start":2790.627,"end":2817.521,"text":"後來這些人出獄之後現在都不做毒品的這些販毒的工作因為真的花費的成本太高所以我們在這個過程中遇到就是說前面是販毒判20幾年然後第二個犯罪類型是詐欺詐欺裁判1年到2年所以對他們在爭取假釋的時間其實是相當的快我現在發現有這種一直前科的這個現象所以我覺得說建議裡面我們要進行而且詐欺犯大概"},{"start":2818.001,"end":2818.141,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2847.222,"end":2874.983,"text":"那我覺得說現在我們鹹井合作已經辨識建立了30多種共通性的一個風水風險太陽那我們也會進行臨櫃關懷等等的但是如果我們將來可以引進所謂的AI辨識可疑的賬戶的話那我覺得這個部分其實是將來一個很重要我們必須要去做的一個工作那還有所謂對於這個平台業者的苛責性也相當的一個重要"},{"start":2876.464,"end":2902.016,"text":"對於我們所謂最後一點科技偵查工具需要哪些法源的依據然後又要保障所謂我們的隱私權那我國在實務新興科技偵查項目裡面有網路電話監聽通訊軟體有LINE、Skype、WeChat、空拍機、熱顯相儀、高倍還有M化車那這些都是我們所謂的新興的這種法源偵測但是目前我們看的偵查方式的法源"},{"start":2902.476,"end":2902.837,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2917.688,"end":2940.179,"text":"詠勳議員"},{"start":2940.899,"end":2953.168,"text":"好 謝謝首位發言的許教授那接下來馬上補充介紹到場的委員就是我們吳昭基委員中線到場 歡迎您好 那剛剛吳教授提到"},{"start":2958.819,"end":2984.346,"text":"許教授提到的幾個部分目前跟大家報告一下目前我看到最新的行政院今天的院會正在審查由金管會提出的重新擬具的證券投資信託及顧問法的部分條文修正草案所以呢這個我們看看今天行政院如果通過之後配合上今天公聽會的內容是不是在投顧投信這邊平台業者上是"},{"start":2985.046,"end":2992.917,"text":"如許教授所說有哪些應該要加強的部分接下來我們就有請第二位發言的邱憲明檢察官請"},{"start":3007.928,"end":3034.722,"text":"主席還有各位與會的長官還有就是與會的教授學者還有各位老師大家好好 那我是私營基建署檢察官邱信明那我今天來的主要的目的當然就是以就是基建檢察官的一個角度來去看目前我們就是針對一些犯罪集團尤其是詐欺的那個犯罪的部分那跟各位做一個簡單的報告那其實這是那個行政院核定的新世代打詐詐欺策略行動綱領的1.5版那我想"},{"start":3036.323,"end":3036.483,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3062.566,"end":3062.586,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":3082.711,"end":3082.731,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3105.254,"end":3105.274,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3122.259,"end":3122.599,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3138.847,"end":3164.518,"text":"目的基本上就是要騙錢但是要有一批人去負責把這些張款做一個類似Money Laundry的一個動作所以他們會有一批人負責去處理這個張款的部分但是因為他們現在的分工非常的細尤其是各位可以稍微想像一下他們是不是都會集中在一個地方依照我之前的一個辦案經驗其實他們都會分散在各地"},{"start":3164.978,"end":3165.138,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3184.671,"end":3184.691,"text":"網絡銀行轉匯"},{"start":3208.861,"end":3231.897,"text":"現在他們只要在家裡甚至只要有手機甚至是現在只要能夠有Wi-Fi連線他們就可以開始做一些洗錢的一些動作那速度其實是非常的快的那包含水房的收水其實就是第一線跟就是剛剛教授提到的投資詐欺的現在第一名的部分那其實他們都會直接跟被害人接觸然後直接去拿錢然後直接交給後面的水房幹部去做一個洗錢的動作"},{"start":3233.438,"end":3234.439,"text":"車手集團車手集團"},{"start":3253.795,"end":3253.815,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3270.092,"end":3270.212,"text":"詐欺犯罪"},{"start":3288.803,"end":3289.243,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":3311.101,"end":3315.345,"text":"提供給基層檢察官要去審核的資料即使即便是人頭賬戶的案件其實在檢察官在偵辦的過程當中其實要看到的證據資料量其實是非常的大的"},{"start":3330.097,"end":3330.117,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3345.88,"end":3345.9,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3363.557,"end":3364.418,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法院第11會議"},{"start":3379.994,"end":3402.73,"text":"因為現在各種的賬片類型非常的多所以除了剛剛所講的這些基礎的這些證據資料之外包含這些不管是交付門號的提供實體帳戶或是提供電子支付帳戶的或是虛擬通貨的這些提供的帳戶的這些人包含現在也比較新興的現在蠻常見的就是Apple的禮物卡"},{"start":3404.651,"end":3405.472,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":3428.192,"end":3448.376,"text":"當然這過程當中的速度的部分能不能及時的去發現這些人及時的去主張這個就是我們要去思考的一個重點這邊以下就跟各位實際的一個方案有這個是已經結束了一個案子其實各位可以稍微看一下這是一個投資詐騙的一個案件這一個被害人總共被騙的一個人被騙了551萬他總共裡面用到的人頭賬戶總共有24個"},{"start":3452.637,"end":3454.578,"text":"這是一個投資詐欺的一個案件這24個代表裡面是有24個被告的24個人頭當然這些人頭賬戶當然就是經過警方的銀行單位凍結之後"},{"start":3470.242,"end":3470.382,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":3498.459,"end":3519.065,"text":"民眾他們為什麼會去賣帳戶的一個主要的原因當然是他們可能就是一個經濟上面的弱勢也許他今天被查獲也許輕判了之後那是不是他們又因為栗子所趨而且那個帳戶的收購的那個對價越來越高他們一樣又繼續再去申請再去賣"},{"start":3520.925,"end":3544.218,"text":"甚至現在有觀察到他們甚至是成為人頭公司的負責用人頭就是人頭公司用公司戶的方式去做一個開戶再做後續再配合詐騙集團一個洗錢的動作就蹲進去讓銀行很難去及時發現他們背後隱身其實詐騙集團的的的一個一份子這個是各位要去可以提供給這樣的資訊給大家做一個觀察OK好"},{"start":3546.02,"end":3557.771,"text":"這是有關於第1縣的懲判的員警在第1縣接受民眾被害人所報案之後所要做的聯訪通報機制這些資訊量是非常非常大的也是提供給各位做個參考"},{"start":3565.959,"end":3585.735,"text":"基本上 搜集大量被害人的資訊 基本上它是有一定的一個基本的效益的但是我們要著重的是在後續處理的部分可不可以繼續去追查共犯集團那贓款是不是可以追回 以及可不可以繼續詛咒當然我們現在真省有一些困境 包含就是因為現在的社群軟體APP都是一些境外的一些公司 取證其實蠻不容易的"},{"start":3586.155,"end":3586.235,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":3602.422,"end":3622.031,"text":"官方結構大,所以在法院審理上面的時程基本上也是很長的以及最後當然教授剛剛有提到有關我們的科技正常立法的部分也希望將來這邊大院這邊可以做個支持因為詐騙集團的分工非常的細希望我們可以大家一起努力然後讓詐騙集團可以斷絕謝謝"},{"start":3625.097,"end":3648.505,"text":"好 謝謝我們邱檢察官其實剛剛聆聽邱檢察官的說明發現有一個社會大眾會關心的我們積極地打詐抓這些提供賬戶的人頭是誰受到侵害這些人頭都是經濟大多是經濟弱勢者跟大家以為貪圖輕鬆賺錢的樣態未必相符"},{"start":3652.918,"end":3659.365,"text":"然而為什麼這些經濟弱勢者他有辦法從銀行取得可公為作為詐騙洗錢的帳戶關鍵在哪裡"},{"start":3665.374,"end":3690.164,"text":"請問信用卡發卡銀行會隨便給一個無業者一個額度上百萬的信用額度讓他刷卡嗎不會因為如果收不到錢發卡銀行會損失但是銀行為什麼會輕易的給一些看起來不像是在從事商業經營者給他一個可以任意做無限多次的轉帳金額規模也不設限的一個帳戶"},{"start":3692.186,"end":3714.633,"text":"這個其實就是我們今天社會要去正視的金融機構平台是不是共同有其他的責任應該要來加入協助打詐跟阻詐我想謝謝邱檢察官提供的這樣的一個觀點那接下來我們就請因為時間有正的同意我們由序號3由林志傑教授來發言請"},{"start":3724.907,"end":3743.514,"text":"主席 召集人 各位先進以及在場的立法院同仁 大家早安 大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑老師首先感謝我們主席能夠關注到這個詐騙橫行的狀況那麼也要感謝政府各部位在過去幾年來也很積極地努力地在防詐打詐"},{"start":3744.754,"end":3771.935,"text":"但是我必須講說詐騙集團的推陳出新是非常快的那總括來講今天因為時間有限我很快的把這幾年的觀察跟分享尤其是過去三年我曾經擔任金融消費評議中心的董事長處理過非常多金融消費者跟金融機構之間因為詐騙衍生的金融糾紛各位可想見他沒有辦法找到詐騙集團的時候就會把這個責任放到金融業者身上"},{"start":3772.555,"end":3781.502,"text":"我必須說,詐騙的橫行造成金融業很大一個典範跟身份的挫制過去金融業它最主要的是把客戶服務好"},{"start":3782.443,"end":3805.172,"text":"也就是說客戶來開戶我們是客戶至上但突然之間金融業要變成剪掉機關手足的延伸其實這個對過去幾年來整個金融業的典範移轉造成非常大的衝擊我必須要講就是今晚會在這個部分也相當的努力但他的這個角色身份移轉跟他的mindset我覺得要改變不是有辦法一下子之間做好的"},{"start":3805.592,"end":3828.027,"text":"同類型的狀況也發生在電信詐騙電信業者跟金融業者也是一樣的作為特許行業他們過去的想法都是客戶至上絕對要到客戶滿意為止可是突然之間這個客戶可能是詐騙集團的共犯可能是車手可能是潛在的洗錢者這個使得電信業者跟金融業者目前到底他們應該用怎樣的身份來自處"},{"start":3829.048,"end":3850.637,"text":"我覺得在整個規範上要給他們更清楚的方向因為他們本身也有一定的使命那這個跟他作為檢調手足的延伸完全是兩種衝突的角色第二個是在詐騙的類型上面有一種是真正的詐騙根本就不存在類似的金融商品比如說他跟你講魷魚筆根本就沒有這種東西可是他卻打著這樣子的稱號來詐騙"},{"start":3852.498,"end":3869.651,"text":"有一些是真的有這樣子的狀況但它的風險非常的高險不相當做了錯誤的投資那很明顯我們今天的公聽會主要是針對我們講的完全不存在的從頭到尾就是騙子他可能根本就是以後手來給付前手的錢"},{"start":3870.171,"end":3893.833,"text":"不存在這樣的金融商品的狀況那前面一種狀況我覺得他最要負責的當然就是金管會因為他介紹了這個不相當的商品造成很多金融消費者在投資上風險評估的錯誤但是後面的這個部分我覺得他就需要所有的部會一起來聯動簡單講我自己觀察這幾年的漏洞有下列幾個第一個剛剛我們檢察官也提到的"},{"start":3893.953,"end":3921.75,"text":"也是我自己觀察到最大一個漏洞就是公司人頭賬戶也就是過往我們把非法的活動行為人都以自然人來處理這是台灣整體刑事犯罪防範一個很大的缺漏就是當他今天以組織體的身份來犯罪的時候我們的規制是少的所以如果我今天開個人的人頭賬戶可能會受到很多的管制可是公司的部分我們沒有非常清楚的規定我覺得這是第一個"},{"start":3922.35,"end":3948.077,"text":"第二是臺灣有75萬的移工這些移工他本身在防詐上面的宣導跟他能夠接受到的保護我覺得也是一個非常大的漏洞因為我們自己在評議中心也有接到移工打電話來要求或者是請問相關的這個問題我覺得就移工的部分也是我們必要注意的第三個當然是網路平台還有各種比如說在LINE群組或者是FB群組"},{"start":3948.917,"end":3964.238,"text":"所做的不管是炒股或者是推薦違法金融商品要如何的解散社團讓他極速可以下架預防後手不斷的進來再來就是個資的洩漏各位可以看到所有的詐騙集團他一定是先從取得個資開始"},{"start":3965.339,"end":3989.105,"text":"他拿到你的個資才有辦法跟你套交情進而一步一步誘使被詐騙者落入詐騙的陷阱然而目前我們企業雖然經濟部在1月已經要求各個企業或者是零售會員你要好好保護我們不是每到一個地方都問你要不要加入會員嗎各位想想看這些你加入會員的資訊如果對方的公司跟企業沒有保管好"},{"start":3989.485,"end":4011.82,"text":"不管是軟硬體遭害或遭到破壞或遭到個資的竊取或者是洩漏他就成為詐騙集團最好的工具因為有了這些個資他可以假扮檢察官假扮業者告訴你你重複付款然後要你來取消或者是你哪一筆錢出了錯誤他們要更正然後慢慢的就做詐騙所以個資才是最大的源頭"},{"start":4012.58,"end":4031.268,"text":"如何要求收集別人各資的公司必須要負起各資保管的責任我覺得這也是詐騙源頭阻斷非常重要的原因那所以如果就修法的部分第一個當然是洗錢管道多元化所以我們相對應的洗錢管道監管也必須多元化所以虛擬資產的納管"},{"start":4033.069,"end":4054.96,"text":"或者是分級管理一定是我們必須要做的第二個是科技偵查的部分以過去因為詐騙集團的這個偵查來破獲用這個M化車的方式當然我們可以了解科技偵查法就人權跟隱私部分某一些部分我們還需要更多的周密的思考但是針對特定的犯罪事項"},{"start":4055.74,"end":4084.281,"text":"使用M化車恐怕是不可避免的情形那最高法院已經講了他就是認為這是一個違法偵查所以你必須要把它納入所以如果我們新的詐騙防制的這個組織犯罪的辦法可以把新興的科技偵查手段把它納入就是只有在特定的某些犯罪狀況下做這個使用我個人認為是合於比例原則的所以這一點也要請與會先進跟我們的立法委員們可以斟酌"},{"start":4086.363,"end":4104.121,"text":"罪犯狀況對高齡者是非常危險的事,因為高齡者已經沒有主動收入的能力一旦今天發生詐騙,他幾乎後半生是毫無所依那又因為高齡者擁有最多的資產,所以可以成為詐騙集團被鎖定的一個目標"},{"start":4107.945,"end":4130.213,"text":"這個情況也發生在日本這一本我非常推薦各位看叫做《詐欺老人》他詳細分析了為什麼日本會有這麼多優秀的年輕人加入詐騙集團去詐騙老人因為他基本上已經把年輕人洗腦成一種毫無希望看不見未來的日本新世代要能從底層翻身的唯一方法"},{"start":4130.573,"end":4158.442,"text":"就是把壟斷財富的老人當作獵物所以他是一個極端的挑起對立然後去洗腦而且培訓非常優秀的年輕人所以日本現在面臨的危機是他的年輕人不務正業很多人是加入這種非法組織各位看到有沒有覺得跟台灣的狀況也有他的類似性所以對於脆弱處境或者是心智障礙缺陷或者是高齡失智的長者他所做的某些詐欺行為"},{"start":4159.062,"end":4182.942,"text":"有沒有可能用某些特殊的情境在刑度上予以加重也就是說像我們在性侵害我們有規定針對7歲以下的幼童為之有沒有可能針對某一些情況特殊脆弱的處境來去科與比較重的刑罰我覺得這一點也是可以考慮的最後要講的就是如果在一些處分上面除了罰則"},{"start":4184.043,"end":4199.686,"text":"有沒有可能堅於考慮其他處分的方式比如說要求他從此不可以申請手機號碼比如說要求他一段時間不得使用金融帳戶當然我們可以理解說金融普惠"},{"start":4200.146,"end":4226.811,"text":"但是這個就跟你可以去買車但因為你酒駕我就把你吊銷或者是不讓你開車一段時間在金融的世界裡金融帳戶是你在金融世界裡的憑證同樣的在網路世界裡手機是你的license但是你既然abuse你的這個權利我就暫停你或者讓你一段時間是不能夠使用不能夠申請的我個人認為這個對於自由權的侵害也是合於比例原則的因為"},{"start":4227.691,"end":4256.952,"text":"我並沒有說你不能買但是我可以讓你一段時間不能用那最後就是針對潛在的被害人比如說目前我們的青年非常有可能因為目前民法18歲就可以開戶了所以過去20歲以上才可以成為完全行為能力人在過去一年已經變成18所以像這樣如果他的金融素養不足的年輕人或是心智比較有退化那沒有主動收入的老人家潛在的被害人"},{"start":4257.392,"end":4280.305,"text":"前在的犯罪人像我們剛剛講的他可能是社會的弱勢他要出賣帳戶或者是他容易為利用這兩個群體如何在教育端來給予更多的賠利也是我認為可以防制犯罪非常重要的幾個原因那以上簡短報告希望我們這一次的修法能夠成功那來保障人民的財務安全謝謝"},{"start":4282.16,"end":4295.564,"text":"非常謝謝林教授非常精闢有力的內容我們現在補充介紹到場的委員是莊瑞雄委員歡迎待會要請莊委員來代理一下主席那其實剛剛我"},{"start":4297.705,"end":4320.985,"text":"林教授所提到的幾個部分與我們心有戚戚焉年輕人自己家裡的長輩不好騙在日本去騙人家家裡的長輩這個是弱勢詐騙另外提到移工的部分過去移工因為在我們的普惠金融上不把它視為一個對象所以移工他有需要的轉匯的需求不是在正規銀行取得可以轉帳的帳戶都是在一些地下"},{"start":4321.485,"end":4321.585,"text":"賴詠蓮教授"},{"start":4348.716,"end":4375.236,"text":"主席還有在場的立法委員還有我們與會的學者專家各位部會還有我們民間團體的代表大家早安大家好那很高興有這機會來參加今天我們司法法制委員會所舉辦的有關詐欺犯罪防制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點的這樣的一個公聽會那倍感榮幸那我是國立中正大學犯罪防制學系賴永蓮教授"},{"start":4381.991,"end":4409.942,"text":"很多人會去質疑說我們臺灣好像是一個特別刑法肥大政特別刑法非常多的一個國家我記得我們的之前老師林三田教授曾經講過我們法治具有這個特別刑法肥大政的這樣的問題那長期存在跌床駕屋捨棄普通法的畸形現象甚至他也講出這個好像違反了法治國原則當然我們今天不是來上課"},{"start":4410.962,"end":4430.576,"text":"我是認為今天我們立法院要提出來的打詐專法是有它的一個必要性的那為什麼呢第一個我們在犯罪學裡面我們常常強調的是治本策略的重要性可是目前以台灣的現象來講你要從治本策略包含家庭學校社區等這方面的一個犯罪的預防"},{"start":4431.357,"end":4431.557,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":4451.682,"end":4469.807,"text":"主持犯罪防治條例、毒品無害防治條例、性侵犯罪防治條例等等,他們都是所謂的特別刑法更重要的就是在這個特別刑法當中,我們可以把偵查、預防、剿制甚至處遇的這些作為都納入到這個專法當中而這個部分是普通刑法比較難以匹配的"},{"start":4476.953,"end":4488.364,"text":"民眾對司法犯罪防制滿意度的調查裡面在政府打詐犯罪防制的表現當中有五成三的民眾表達不滿意的態度所以這樣的民眾或許"},{"start":4489.125,"end":4490.006,"text":"從這幾個角度我認為專法有它的必要性"},{"start":4507.014,"end":4524.651,"text":"在刑事局上個月公布的幾個數據剛剛有幾位兩位老師也有提到過我們再回想一下第一個我們的詐騙的金額各位去年已經達到將近89億跟前年同一個時期比起來73億已經成長了百分之二十一點多"},{"start":4525.936,"end":4541.816,"text":"那詐騙的這個前幾名的部分剛剛主席也有提到了像假投資假的網路拍賣還有解除分期付款這是前三名的那還有特別是假投資的這個部分他的財損一直是高居第一位"},{"start":4542.737,"end":4568.712,"text":"然後呢整個詐騙案件呢從前人的23000件成長到35000多件這個成長已經進了50%所以是這麼嚴峻但是你說我們成立了打詐辦公室我們各部會特別是在執法單位沒有努力嗎我特別秀出了這一張叫做冰山一角很努力但是下面的我們講這種隱性的潛在的沒有曝光的黑數多不多可能更多"},{"start":4569.713,"end":4581.655,"text":"所以你追的越多我們派的人力越多所以看到的就是案件量查獲增加那麼主詐的這些金額也增加查獲的金額也增加但下面呢你根本就不知道他有多大"},{"start":4582.905,"end":4611.359,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們今天覺得說民眾認為政府呢我們很努力在打詐投注了很多的人力包含檢查系統我們的檢察官已經他的這個案件量爆量我們的警察打詐中心成立了我們呢打詐的這個小組設在這個我們的這個刑事局裡面各基層的警察也都投入了但是呢各位可以發現為什麼民眾他的感受還是非常的無感為什麼因為下面的母體太大下面母體太大所以"},{"start":4612.321,"end":4636.778,"text":"陳如我們剛剛許教授所講的這一些人就是一種理性選擇嘛那為什麼會去選擇包含你像現在的組織犯罪包含我們現在的毒品犯罪他們不再去從事相同的債犯而去從事打詐包含日本也是這樣子的一個情形因為他就符合了低成本、低刑罰的威嚇、高獲利嘛所以這就是我們講的理性選擇的一種詮釋"},{"start":4638.831,"end":4655.597,"text":"好 那所以呢回應到我們今天的這個公聽會的一些主題裡面所提到的我們的打詐專法那些面向當中要包含哪一些我們的一個思維就是第一個我們要墊高犯罪的成本第二個呢 要降低標定物被鎖定的一個風險"},{"start":4656.697,"end":4679.91,"text":"被害的風險那墊高成本的部分呢包含了提升偵辦犯罪的能力跟條件提高我們的刑度附加呢我記得我們在去年做一個研究的時候有退休的檢察官現在從事律師他在辦案的時候他跟我們講過一個很重要的利器就是被我們大法官在4至第812號解釋所宣告違憲的就是強制工作"},{"start":4680.874,"end":4708.526,"text":"這一些的詐騙犯他的平均刑度只有多少一年到一年半但是他又附加一個強制工作一次三年各位就是很高的一個賀祖的功效但是這個已經被宣告違憲了所以這一些的成本還有假設門檻剛剛我們先進有提到的假設的門檻當中我們的審查除了他的刑事要件二分之一或三分之二之外你還要去考慮到說他的這些上課的時數還有"},{"start":4709.747,"end":4709.767,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4725.566,"end":4743.658,"text":"這個附加他的保護管束有沒有可能委由勞動部來執行他的一些所謂的技能訓練的一個工作也就是說我們相對的變相的或者是說附加一些額外的負擔讓他們去認為把他的這個餘力去投注在這種所謂的詐騙這個是不值得選擇的一個行為所以這個部分我們在考慮的時候就是要從這幾個方方面面來讓他墊高他的犯罪成本"},{"start":4754.284,"end":4781.854,"text":"那麼降低被害的這個風險的這個區塊當中我們去年的研究裡面 包含剛剛我們說這個林志傑老師有提到的為什麼老人容易被鎖定為什麼哪一些族群容易被鎖定所以這個犯罪預防不能全面性的就是一般普羅大眾來做這樣子我們應該要達到分類分群分年齡層分族群甚至移工可能也被詐騙都要分這些分齡分群分類來做這個犯罪預防的宣導"},{"start":4782.674,"end":4798.615,"text":"那麼對於有創傷症候群的 去年我們的研究發現我們有30%的受訪的民眾已經有重複被害的問題他們也表達出了有所謂的創傷症候的問題所以這個部分我們是不是在專法當中要把他納進來"},{"start":4799.716,"end":4825.719,"text":"拉到哪裡?把我們的被害人保護法權益的這個保護的這個區塊呢也連結在一起針對這些被害人政府可以提供什麼樣的一個資源什麼樣的一個協助的部分那麼以納入當中所以我們的目標就是降低新生被詐騙的人口各位不要以為不可行我們在實施毒品的這個新世代反毒第一一點零然後到第二點零的時候我們可能下個月要實施三點零"},{"start":4826.44,"end":4854.56,"text":"那這個2.0的時候我們的論述裡面就提到我們的毒品的新生人口確實下降所以呢我們一定要把這些被詐騙的人口這個人口新生的這個被詐騙人口的這個數量要把它下降做我們這個很重要的一個目標然後提高我們的執法跟追溯的效能然後呢最重要的就是加重刑罰的嚇阻的威嚇讓他們認為詐騙犯罪不再是一個值回票價的選擇這個是我們很重要的那"},{"start":4860.427,"end":4861.428,"text":"林智傑教授"},{"start":4875.166,"end":4896.228,"text":"包含金流、資通訊、金管會、通傳會、速發部的工作因為這些工作 其實我們的執法部門沒有這樣的源頭沒有辦法去有效的 相對的把一些打詐的不法的帳戶也好 金流也好甚至這些平台也好 給它下架"},{"start":4896.989,"end":4912.61,"text":"所以這一個專法當中一定要把相關的金流跟資通訊的部會也好全部納進來以降低這些人從事投資詐騙案件的源頭的管理那最後剛剛也有提到的就是說我們在犯罪"},{"start":4913.431,"end":4931.87,"text":"我們的像數位中介法還有科技偵查法等都沒有辦法通過所以剛剛林志傑老師也提到像N化車等等那這個區塊針對特殊的犯罪案件我們也有像類似的就是組織犯罪防制條例針對組織犯罪的部分我們也把N化車也放進去了所以今天針對打詐的這個區塊當中我們也建議"},{"start":4934.372,"end":4934.392,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4950.194,"end":4950.495,"text":"報告完畢 以上請指正 謝謝"},{"start":4969.943,"end":4983.01,"text":"謝謝賴教授我想今天在代理中委員主席的位置有幾句話想跟大家感謝一下立法院我們這麼多年來我們每天都在聽"},{"start":4984.091,"end":4997.968,"text":"我們一直在聽這聽了這麼多專家學者的一個意見那最主要的原因就是這個整個打詐我們這個政府投下這麼多的人力物力財力可是這個績效啊"},{"start":4999.87,"end":5020.65,"text":"民眾是不滿意的啦我相信各位啊好多都是我們的前輩啊各位也都是不滿意的但問題就是因為不滿意才會有今天這個公聽會這個公聽會那大家都是希望說啊這個這個財產犯罪啊可以再一直把它加重立法院其實這幾年啊我只要各位來社會上我要求的"},{"start":5021.531,"end":5050.51,"text":"好像是唯一的法寶就剩下刑責把它加重加重到整個法律的體系有時候幾個學法的在這邊我們都嘩嘩叫因為整個體系都幾乎快顛覆掉但是我們都求助於各位各界看有沒有辦法讓這個在整個打詐的部分這個詐騙的部分在台灣可以降低那大家大概好像就是今天刑事警察局那邊也有來內政部刑事警察局也有來"},{"start":5051.411,"end":5069.809,"text":"到最後大家都會客語的就是檢察官警察不然立法院把刑度弄高立法院第一個不是審你把它弄高以後又怎麼樣第二個你說檢察官檢察官大家都會想到就是說他案子已經增加了那麼多檢察官也不是審"},{"start":5071.795,"end":5100.157,"text":"打詐犯罪裡面政治檢察官也是那個要整個團隊大家去把它共同合作檢察官也不是每個領域都懂還有監管會 刑事警察局太多太多太多了所以我今天我們立法院這邊我今天要從頭把它做到尾要很謙虛的再來聽聽看有沒有辦法大家的意見來逐攻立法院來大家最後大家集思廣益我們全力來做一個支持"},{"start":5100.937,"end":5108.109,"text":"讓它有成效出來我看這才是重點接下來我要來請我們這個也在法界有法界背景的我們吳仲憲吳委員"},{"start":5116.704,"end":5144.896,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想就是我這邊先簡單做因為這邊在場有很多都是我以前司法官訓練所的指導老師還有以前一起辦案的戰友們我想說問題在哪裡我們都很清楚我今天想提一個東西就是說公欲善其事必先利其器我非常的清楚現在打詐遇到一個很大的問題就是"},{"start":5146.981,"end":5165.933,"text":"我們的那個數位偵查法還是要趕快給它過必須在這邊呼籲我們自己立法院的同仁或是所有相關的人如果沒有過的一天我們今天對打詐就是使不上力這一點必須 因為我自己做了很久"},{"start":5166.974,"end":5190.362,"text":"在偵查方面的工作那也辦了很多詐騙集團的案件所以我很清楚一件事情沒有這些偵查的方式我們走不下去到現在連M化車的證據能力連GPS的證據能力都還在討論的時候我們其實在世界上像是石器時代的國家在面對一個高科技的業者這是我們現在會面臨的問題所以請大家"},{"start":5193.243,"end":5199.341,"text":"了解一件事 法定型的加重再怎麼加重你很難遏止他們不做壞事"},{"start":5200.589,"end":5200.889,"text":"秀卿銘警察官"},{"start":5231.056,"end":5236.322,"text":"目前法務部對於基層檢察官有沒有提供足夠的辦案資源還有職職上的協助"},{"start":5252.619,"end":5252.78,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5270.074,"end":5270.634,"text":"現在面臨最大的問題目前有沒有提供實質上的協助"},{"start":5283.049,"end":5284.65,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5300.864,"end":5300.884,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5320.857,"end":5340.901,"text":"在去年的部分,法務部又要了一筆預算,有增加所謂的檢察官助理現在有100位檢察官的助理,現在正在地檢署幫檢察官做有關於一些打詐的業務的部分尤其是有關一些資料整理的部分,就正如我剛剛所講的案子,例子為例"},{"start":5343.402,"end":5343.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5369.475,"end":5391.63,"text":"人力之外 數位財政室目前成效好不好有關於數位財政室的部分其實設置的部分因為這樣人頭的案子進來之後當然我們會請尤其有些被告會提供一些手機的部分我們當然會請地檢署因為地檢署現在都有設置數位財政室除了我們所知道的像"},{"start":5393.051,"end":5413.912,"text":"行事局及電話局採證之外 為了紓解他們的業務部分 地檢署可以直接做採證的部分 速度可以加快的 包含第一線所知道的手機的情資 能夠再去pass給友軍單位 大家可以進行分進合集的一個方案"},{"start":5415.513,"end":5441.056,"text":"那我請教一下那個黃副局長就是目前這個因為外交上面的問題然後還有就是沒有兩岸共打那這一塊我們將來怎麼有沒有補位的因為我想今天雖然是公聽會但是我希望聽到因為大家講的東西不一定是我們認為真正的核心問題那我想說我請教您一件事情就是你可不可以跟我們大家講一下"},{"start":5442.177,"end":5454.575,"text":"兩岸公島現在沒有繼續了嘛那也沒有外交的問題那現在有一些有沒有什麼補位的方式還有另外就是錢會出去國外IP在國外有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":5456.348,"end":5483.676,"text":"跟委員報告前會出去國外目前確實是比較困難的地方因為歹徒用跳板用VPN去做這個隱匿身份確實是比較難以追查不過我們現在已經在科技偵查法也好通訊保障型偵查法也好一直在想辦法把一些相關的紀錄跟流量可以做一定的處理那未來我們是有信心可以去增加這個查到的機率那當然是"},{"start":5484.436,"end":5492.001,"text":"司法互助及兩岸共打這都是我們要持續努力的目標也是我們政府應該努力的目標今天不是質詢我想說點出幾個因為我看了大家的報告還有"},{"start":5501.146,"end":5501.467,"text":"民眾在乎的雖然說"},{"start":5519.9,"end":5547.083,"text":"現在IP在國外我們就拿他沒辦法錢匯出國外我們也拿他沒辦法但是被害人他不是在乎他的主要在乎不是這個人被判多久而是我的錢拿不拿得回來但是我們一直著重在我們要怎麼樣加這些人的刑度大家忘了一件事這些辛苦的人民他的錢拿不回來所以我剛剛請教大家的問題其實中國一個最核心的問題就在這裡"},{"start":5548.652,"end":5548.672,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5571.887,"end":5592.427,"text":"盡量多簽一點司法互助找一些多一點國家因為這不涉及什麼政治司法互助我們能夠跟他們要一些資料我們才能把錢追回來還給這些辛苦的台灣人民我的今天我的意思是在這裡我一直不覺得硬爆主義是最棒的事情不是把這些人抓去關對國家就是好事"},{"start":5593.288,"end":5619.658,"text":"真的對這些被害人好的事幫他們把錢找回來我的想 核心的問題就在這裡好 謝謝大家 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳昭偉在這裡也謝謝剛剛莊委員的代理主持也跟委員會和公聽會與會的學者專家代表和列席的政府機關官說明那麼其實公聽會在立法院職權行使過程當中"},{"start":5621.118,"end":5621.479,"text":"公聽會．事由．"},{"start":5636.44,"end":5636.6,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5656.981,"end":5657.101,"text":"臺灣電信產業發展協會"},{"start":5697.731,"end":5725.866,"text":"主席在座各位先進還有後面所有的部會的長官還有與會的所有的專家學者還有各位朋友大家好今天能夠參加這個公聽會我必須誠實說從我的內心受邀開始我是用驚喜兩個字來看待這件事因為過往類似的公聽會或者是助團會或相關的會議很少會從配合的產業的角度"},{"start":5726.366,"end":5726.566,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5743.023,"end":5758.541,"text":"電信業者長期就是我們的兩個主管機關NCC和數位部的打詐的協力夥伴其實包含不論是國際來話的警示宣告或者是主角國際來話甚至於數位部提出了111的簡訊"},{"start":5760.183,"end":5760.203,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5782.049,"end":5804.448,"text":"修法其實我提了兩個部分一個其實是大院提出來的這個打詐專法的部分跟我自己實務上有關的其實是有兩個條文一個是在第7條一個在第8條那我就很實務的就實務上就第7條的部分因為在條文裡面希望電信業者可以依電信法第22條去做"},{"start":5806.99,"end":5807.27,"text":"主席"},{"start":5825.7,"end":5848.067,"text":"包含司法機關只要能夠通知我們有犯罪嫌疑的話呢我們就拒絕相關的電信服務的申辦就像剛才林智傑老師所提的如果今天人民有這個申請通訊的自由或者是申請這個我們在電信管理法無正當理由不得拒絕電信服務的前提之下但你有犯罪經通告的話"},{"start":5848.567,"end":5877.83,"text":"你應該就被褫奪部分的通訊的權利那麼這個部分應該由主管機關或有權單位來宣告並通知我們到底要限制它的申辦服務多久的期間那麼這個部分也是一個懲戒的部分我們是願意配合也希望把它明文在法規上那第8條的部分其實對我們來看應該是數位中介服務的提供者部分它涵蓋的範圍很廣其實剛才私底下其實有老師也問像Meta 像Line"},{"start":5879.031,"end":5893.486,"text":"最多的所謂的詐騙的管道的來源或許可以從第8條可以來看但問題是或許第8條到底這些境外的OTT平台在為落地管理的時候能不能透過第8條去"},{"start":5895.427,"end":5915.356,"text":"執行,我覺得這是另外一個要討論的,但是在原始條文我們也可以看到說是要服務提供者用服務條款自願性的針對詐欺犯罪的違法內容採取調查偵測辨識移除限制的措施,那我也必須說現行的數位中介服務者"},{"start":5916.581,"end":5932.963,"text":"很多其實是小型的業者或者是境外的業者更百分之百是民間業者科語或賦語民間業者這樣類似司法調查權的條文我擔心會落入原先數位中介法裡面"},{"start":5934.385,"end":5950.239,"text":"全民言論監控及隱私權益侵害的部分所以我們認為數五位中介服務提供者的確應該成為協力的夥伴甚至於像剛才林智傑老師說的如果今天你有違法之餘就應該限制或阻絕你"},{"start":5951.901,"end":5970.402,"text":"實用或得到相應的服務所以我也建議比照第7條是接獲主管機關或司法機關有關的通知之後就停止他的相關的服務如果停止相關的服務應該後續還搭配什麼我覺得可以往西部的討論但是我覺得這條最大的問題在於很多境外的服務提供者"},{"start":5970.802,"end":5971.262,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5986.687,"end":5986.747,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6003.684,"end":6004.105,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6021.981,"end":6048.223,"text":"應該在電信管理法第5條裏面不論他是不是辦理電信的登記他應該就被視為電信事業被視為電信事業他就應該按電信管理法的角度去提供相關的包含所謂的剛才的人頭戶的問題人頭門號的問題都可以得到解決因為凡電信事業就必須透過KYC的整個流程去確認你的申辦者是否為本人所以呢凡"},{"start":6048.803,"end":6048.944,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":6059.833,"end":6070.539,"text":"在第5條的部分,就所謂的電信事業有1234之外,現行最多的也是最多破口的包含了經營虛擬行動網路或者是轉售虛擬的號碼還有其他用電信事業提供的無線電頻率這些都是屬於電信服務的行為,就應該直接納入電信事業"},{"start":6080.525,"end":6108.186,"text":"並且可予他要去做消費者的KYC也就是說必須要確實確認你的用戶身份的事情如果這兩個條文能夠被修改的話我覺得剛才這個警察官所提的人頭賬戶的問題或許可以得到一個比較直接的解決那另外在這個新興偵辦新興科技的部分其實我是非常非常Echo林志傑老師所提到的因為"},{"start":6109.246,"end":6134.846,"text":"現在的新興科技偵查的部分對於電信業者而言我必須感謝就是一個民間業者老實說不是專業的犯罪偵查者另外一個民間業者他有他的法徵議題要遵守我們現在的困擾在於很多的實務上沒有法徵可做以及科技偵查過程當中需要我們配合的部分舉例而言好了"},{"start":6136.246,"end":6157.935,"text":"目前網路上的連線紀錄流量你造訪哪一個網站目前他其實是一個動態性的用戶的隱私或者是個資的訊息在電信管理法的範圍裡面我們是不可以去追蹤監管監控或者是窺看"},{"start":6159.275,"end":6182.311,"text":"保留這些資訊的所以在過往討論的時候希望電信業者無差別式的保留所有消費者或用戶在網路上所所行的軌跡跟跟他的訊息事實上他有危害憲法侵害憲法的疑慮那這個部分我Echo林智傑老師說的應該是按照現行通報法裡面"},{"start":6184.793,"end":6199.671,"text":"特定個案或特別案例被視為應該偵查對象的時候﹐透過法官保留的方式提出申請﹐就法官保留申請之後﹐往後未來做特定個案的留存"},{"start":6200.071,"end":6200.211,"text":"主席"},{"start":6218.646,"end":6244.017,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉副秘書長我們當然很歡迎您後續的補充在聆聽完其他學者專家代表及機關的回應之後接下來我們有請鄭善信教授發言主席還有我們的議會的各先進們以及機關"},{"start":6246.203,"end":6270.773,"text":"我們的代表們大家好我是開南大學的教師我的發言有以下幾點第一個就是我們看了這麼多的詐騙我認為應該把它區分開來第一個區分這個吸金案跟詐欺不一樣吸金案比如說IMB這種很典型的吸金案"},{"start":6273.45,"end":6295.704,"text":"法規 它的主辦機關 調查局 你要把它割開來 剪掉剪緊 你要割開來 割開來以後才能夠克責 這個是應該要做的我看檢察機關好像 欸 通通混在一起 這個不好 這樣子的話無從克責 所以 吸盡案應該誰辦"},{"start":6298.002,"end":6312.715,"text":"現在已經有法規了 就這樣辦 不應該扯在一起全民最在意的詐騙 我認為用工具可以分成三類第一個是用電信來詐騙"},{"start":6324.221,"end":6337.525,"text":"主管的機關也做了很多努力發佈了很多行政命令但我跟他看的結果有一個共通點就是看起來沒有百分之百的落實"},{"start":6340.308,"end":6364.085,"text":"並且他的這個 申請這些門號 帳戶的這個門檻太低了 幾乎完全沒有審核 這個我能夠理解一張人頭門號 無論如何被詐騙集團使用 最後的獲利者當然是我電信公司嘛 我怎麼會有"},{"start":6365.219,"end":6367.88,"text":"金融機關也是一樣,你錢轉來轉去,每轉一筆,我就轉一筆。金融普惠,電信普惠,這個是當然的,這個是大棋子,拿一個人權大棋就..."},{"start":6390.134,"end":6403.838,"text":"其實裡面包含了很多我們看不到的東西因此我認為真正的重點應該是要在把這三種管道的人頭抓清楚也就是人頭門號人頭帳戶人頭公司各位你還記得吧幾十年前還有"},{"start":6413.132,"end":6430.298,"text":"銀行的這個支票 支票人頭我用我的人頭去弄100張 就去賣給這些惡劣的公司那個支票人頭 所以我認為人頭才是真正的問題點應該要控管好 那好 我也非常贊成"},{"start":6434.71,"end":6454.223,"text":"用裝法的方式執政黨到目前為止的這些做法也就是打詐1.5這些我認為都在甘霖上面在基礎上面我認為都應該繼續下去那麼倘若可以的話弄一個裝法我認為這個裝法應該有以下幾個重點第一個就是他應該是"},{"start":6463.635,"end":6485.267,"text":"犯罪預防法不是那個犯罪偵查法不是那個犯罪執行法應該是犯罪預防法什麼意思呢他只有預防那些人頭如何擴散如何把它壓制下來的功能而已那為什麼這樣講呢我們來看一下訂這種專法在我們臺灣"},{"start":6491.001,"end":6502.819,"text":"大概有兩類一個叫做基本法我們台灣有類似的基本法有10個這樣子的基本法它最重要的目的是讓政黨輪替的時候"},{"start":6504.721,"end":6528.972,"text":"他的政策不至於斷絕上一次的政黨定下來的法條都在啊你下一任的這個政府你一定要接下去不能夠方案啊這個冰凍啊不行不行一定要持續下來所以基本法有這樣子的這個功能因此他沒有任何的作用法沒有任何的偵查沒有任何的處罰的這種條文沒有"},{"start":6531.022,"end":6554.531,"text":"這是我們10個基本法的特色但還有另外一種基本法譬如性侵害犯罪反制基本法這樣子的性侵害犯罪反制法雖然它沒有基本法這個名稱但是它有它的實質它的實質在哪裡呢第一個有一個中央主管機關以及各"},{"start":6555.131,"end":6569.974,"text":"目的事業的主管機關接下來他們成立了一個網路的這個制度網路能夠連線能夠共管同樣一件事情這樣子的性侵害犯罪防治法是從美國引進來的20年前從美國引進來的原本都沒有我們原本的這個法律都是走"},{"start":6581.684,"end":6607.065,"text":"德國路線 都走德國路線 也就是 個別個別的剛剛那個賴先生 賴永年老師講 這個我們的 這個什麼 特別法肥大政 我跟你講各國不一樣 各國不一樣 德國是很不喜歡 沒有錯 沒有錯美國不一樣喔 日本也不一樣喔 我們台灣也引進了這個性侵害犯罪防治法 20年下來 各位你給他看一下"},{"start":6608.311,"end":6625.843,"text":"做得好不好我認為非常有效尤其在兩性貧權在性騷擾在性侵害這一部分我認為做得非常有效一定我們看成效的話一定會比日本韓國中國大陸或者我們鄰近的國家做得多好"},{"start":6627.64,"end":6649.785,"text":"這一點是我們很值得驕傲的 倘若貴會能夠再重新看一次《性侵害犯罪防制法》認為它做得好的話 成效很不錯的話我認為這個是已經有的東西 可以反照一下反照一下的話 我們一定要很清楚的把它割開來"},{"start":6653.041,"end":6675.174,"text":"絕大部分都是犯罪預防法不是犯罪偵查法因為犯罪的偵查檢察官跟實體的刑罰都有了你假如再把它定下去的話會重複定定那個法條的這個經合非常麻煩你怎麼定呢所以我認為應該把它限定在"},{"start":6676.769,"end":6687.738,"text":"犯罪以防法連科技偵查也不要進去你說AIM化車定在這裡面別的案件不要了嘛我們警察辦別的案件不要了嘛更何況AIM化車"},{"start":6691.425,"end":6692.945,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6718.834,"end":6720.375,"text":"我舉一個例子他們去年6月吧"},{"start":6749.662,"end":6776.138,"text":"在163163G那個地方也訂了一個就是啊車牌辨識資料庫的規定在刑事訴訟法裡面喔刑事訴訟法裡面喔那麼他們的這個立法已經訂了我們有沒有辦法他這個法律保留他這個立法的速度跟這個這麼快這麼好效率這麼高"},{"start":6777.56,"end":6796.754,"text":"是德國的法文化你一再講要跟德國學我跟你講現況的這些警察所做的事情像車牌辨識通通會被方案通通會被方案這個我們是要特別注意這個我認為不宜通通用他們的那麼我認為在"},{"start":6802.486,"end":6829.114,"text":"我們的性侵害犯罪法裡面有幾個大特色第一個就是有中央主管機關還有目的事業主管機關並且各機關做什麼事很清楚還有一個他用的大概都是行政處罰行政處罰就是剛剛我們副秘書長講的我給你限制你的使用給你剝奪你的使用權這些都用行政處罰的方式而不是用刑法我認為這個很重要"},{"start":6830.967,"end":6857.99,"text":"因為新法部分已經定在各個各培法規裡面了你何必再定呢那麼當然科技政法也不要定在那裡面還有如何賠償 不要在裡面國培 日本有國培喔 不要啦 不要啦假如通通加進去裡面的話恐怕越定越亂你沒有辦法抓一個主軸我認為主軸應該就是在如何控制人頭"},{"start":6859.229,"end":6861.15,"text":"謝謝鄭教授的發言 接下來有請黃總召國昌發言"},{"start":6900.957,"end":6917.086,"text":"首先我非常感謝這麼多的專家學者來針對本委員會針對國人痛恨詐騙的問題來提供寶貴的意見我相信今天各位專家學者針對提綱所提出來的一些看法"},{"start":6917.586,"end":6938.832,"text":"都可以成為博物委會接下來修正相關法令的時候重要的參考那我自己是大概有四個面向是不斷在思考的問題那也想藉由這個機會來救教各位專家學者第一個是事前管制的成效與作為等到詐騙發生了以後其實一切都太晚了"},{"start":6939.332,"end":6967.793,"text":"不管是後來的刑事追溯或者是財產能夠不乏所得能夠追回來在實務上都面臨相當大的困難第二個部分是科技偵查的必要與規範第三個部分是有效打詐的量能與資源最後一個是刑事制裁的陰暴跟預防在這四個主題上面其實國人一直看到的是我們的行政部門投入大量的資源不管是成立了打詐辦公室"},{"start":6968.553,"end":6985.183,"text":"那還是有新的打詐的綱領覺得大家在意的不是這些大官的剪綵大家在意的是在檢討剪綵完以後具體的作為到底是什麼那只不過說最近這段時間這兩年大家看詐騙的數字"},{"start":6986.744,"end":7013.298,"text":"不管是案件一路的攀升還是詐欺財損的金額不斷的增加這個都是整個社會付出的慘痛的代價每一個受害的民眾我接觸到非常多受到詐騙的被害人每一個被害人背後就是一個家庭當一個人被詐騙就是一整個家庭全部都被拖垮了已經形成越來越嚴重的社會問題"},{"start":7014.358,"end":7034.193,"text":"那當然在目前的狀況下對我們的檢察機關所造成的挑戰跟負擔也是相當的可怕因為對我們的檢察機關來講當詐騙案件不斷的攀升其他類型犯罪的數字沒有降低的時候檢查的人力到底要怎麼分配"},{"start":7035.214,"end":7063.528,"text":"你調右隊的檢察官去偵辦詐騙的案件那其他的殺人的組織犯罪的搶奪強盜的毒品的那這些案件怎麼樣來去應付犯罪所需要偵查能量所以對於整個檢查體系的挑戰已經到了非常嚴峻的程度了也正是因為這個樣子基層檢察官團體他們在去年的時候才會開了一個研討會"},{"start":7064.588,"end":7091.976,"text":"那當然這位檢察官他們可以說是恨鐵不成鋼坎坷之言說打詐國家隊1.5已經是國家級的詐騙那當然這樣子的形容聽在爪位權力的人手上絕對是不舒服的但是他反映出了第一線基層的同仁他們最沉痛的呼聲也正是因為這個樣子在去年的時候他們針對一個最基本的概念當你要打詐"},{"start":7092.816,"end":7110.058,"text":"那你第一個要有效的打詐就要先處理詐騙的犯罪工具所以從個資到人頭帳戶到電信號碼這些事情他們都希望能夠強化前端的行政監理強化前端的行政監理"},{"start":7110.959,"end":7127.11,"text":"避免讓這一些其實已經具有高度屬人性的犯罪工具什麼叫做具有高度屬人性的犯罪工具我們現在大家手上幾乎每一個人都有一支手機大部分正常的人也就一支手機那支手機我們去辦號碼的時候是要開雙證件"},{"start":7131.073,"end":7153.194,"text":"審核非常嚴格如果手機裡面有你所有的個資甚至有一些電子支付的工具全部都在手機裡那第二個部分是銀行的帳號當手機跟銀行帳號在21世紀的生活當中已經具有高度屬人性的事情的時候這些詐騙集團如何大量的取得大量的取得手機門號"},{"start":7154.375,"end":7181.751,"text":"如何大量的取得人和賬戶這個就會挑戰行政監理他實際上面的效果那因此在去年當檢察官團體提出了這麼沉痛的呼籲跟具體的建議以後也看起來我們的行政部門終於開始動起來了那只不過說動起來以後最後實際上面的成效是怎麼樣有待檢驗我為什麼這樣子說呢大概在"},{"start":7183.77,"end":7212.549,"text":"這個禮拜我們NCC的主委針對這件事情交換了意見問大家期待的是什麼大家期待的是譬如像第二類電信你不能讓門號這麼腐爛到處亂發甚至有企業社成立了人頭公司大量的第二類電信的帳號可以這樣子轉售非常的腐爛大家希望他做好事前的管制但是那個NCC我看到荒謬的狀況那天跟他交換意見是"},{"start":7214.854,"end":7217.643,"text":"檢察官已經查到了而且已經貞節起訴了"},{"start":7219.517,"end":7247.291,"text":"然後我說那針對這些第二類被查到第二類徵信的業者那請問NCC採取了什麼措施他們說他們現在正在進行行政調查當中其實說老實講我那天聽陳耀祥這樣講我一定有快要休克大家期待的是你前端就要做好了結果你前端沒有做好是檢察官幫你找出來犯罪事實都調查完了也起訴了然後請問你現在NCC要有怎麼作為他說我現在正在進行行政調查"},{"start":7248.251,"end":7265.937,"text":"那個已經lag非常非常久了前端沒有發生管制的效果到後端的時候結果等到人家起訴NCC還在進行行政調查這到底是一個什麼荒謬的現狀這也是為什麼這麼多基層的檢察官累到爆肝的基層檢察官他們對於現狀這麼不滿"},{"start":7268.078,"end":7287.571,"text":"對不起啊 因為時間的關係所以我接下來會講得非常的快第二個重要的科技偵查的必要性我相信第一線辦案的檢警大家心裡都非常有感但是當這件事情是檢警他們辦案所需要的時候但我們就因為沒有法律的授權使得"},{"start":7288.451,"end":7302.497,"text":"這一個偵辦犯罪的必要手段竟然可以讓第一線的檢體自己誤觸法網甚至所收集到的證據在法庭上被認為沒有證據能力到最後白忙一場現在最關鍵的問題就是說"},{"start":7304.758,"end":7329.195,"text":"針對有關於這些科技偵查所得證據的證據能力我們到底是要回到刑事訴訟法裡面做一般性的規定還是在科技偵查法裡面做一個特別法的規定那我個人是絕對反對只把這些科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面因為你如果把科技偵查的手段放在詐欺專法裡面會形成一個非常荒謬的狀況"},{"start":7331.54,"end":7345.845,"text":"偵辦電信詐欺的時候可以用GPS可以用M化車可以用各式各樣科技偵查手段但是辦國安案件的時候就不行了辦組織犯罪的時候就不行了辦毒品案件的時候就不行了所以我"},{"start":7347.478,"end":7375.789,"text":"對於詐欺專法有沒有制定的必要性大家可以討論但是科技偵查的手段這件事情在符合正當法律程序必要的時候採取法官保留原則之下我認為應該要有一個具有比較普遍性通則適用性的規範方式放在刑事訴訟法還是要立一個特別法立法的形式我們大家通通都可以討論最後一個主席最後只用30秒就好了就是讓"},{"start":7377.165,"end":7401.098,"text":"第一線的警察也好調查員也好大家都覺得非常痛苦的事情他們投入大量的資源投入了大量的資源好不容易破獲了好不容易抓到人了他詐欺的對象也很多他所造成的時害也很高但是到最後法院端的時候輕輕的判完刑就放人了"},{"start":7404.827,"end":7431.514,"text":"那這個是在台版柬埔寨裡面的首腦藍道當他被抓的時候我去看他似乎不像是出犯我把過去的判決系統全部調完了以後發現31個加重詐欺罪你如果看法定本刑刑法339條之下他犯了31個結果最後的結論我們用非法律人的角度來講叫做不用坐牢"},{"start":7432.871,"end":7456.212,"text":"當非法律人來問法律人的時候為什麼這樣可以不用坐牢我們要非常耗費唇舌的去解釋第一個先想像淨核他是以組織犯罪來加重詐欺組織犯罪的罪名被想像淨核掉了所以我們只用加重詐欺加重詐欺是一年以上7年以下那但是法官認為他嫌可免訴所以判6個月"},{"start":7457.313,"end":7477.57,"text":"那一個詐欺判6個月11個詐欺宣告刑事6年6個月結果我們還有一個訴罪併罰的制度一個訴罪併罰以後馬上急遽縮減成剩10個月最後10個月還可以一服牢獄那些非法律人聽完法律人解釋完了以後即使他"},{"start":7479.315,"end":7499.948,"text":"理解原來你們是這樣子玩的玩到最後出來的結果我必須要老實的講違反人民一般的法感情他是31個架動詐欺罪前面的一個10個月一服牢役後面的那個更誇張宣告刑已經21年了最後法官給他兩年還什麼緩刑"},{"start":7504.128,"end":7530.126,"text":"三次大量詐欺罪在我國的法律系統當中最後的結論是一天的牢都不用做今天我們對於刑法知道他有最後手段性最後他有殘酷性所有上過大一刑法的法律學生都知道但我們回到他本身的制度功能不管你採取的是硬暴論一般預防特別預防"},{"start":7531.414,"end":7555.971,"text":"我們必須要非常謙卑的反省法律人必須要非常謙卑的反省包括我個人在裡面這樣的結果到底達到了什麼樣子的功能這樣的結果到底保護了誰如果我們讓這樣子的現狀繼續繼續下去的話只會造成越來越多人受害人民對司法的信任也會以上 謝謝謝謝黃總召"},{"start":7559.987,"end":7580.481,"text":"講到最後這個案例真的讓社會大眾有非常的驚訝好那接下來我們就有請吳耀宗教授進行發言請稍後在莊瑞雄委員發言完畢後呢我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":7590.007,"end":7602.418,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進、各位貴賓大家好其實今天的議題涉及的面向非常廣剛剛前面已經有好幾個委員講到的問題"},{"start":7608.263,"end":7609.004,"text":"黃國昌委員 鄭善逸 鄭老師"},{"start":7630.897,"end":7631.098,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7650.94,"end":7670.324,"text":"我也非常贊同就是應該去處理的目標是在電信管理法我個人反而不太贊成在這個組織犯罪防制條例因為就體力上來講其實是他不是組織犯罪的問題因為其實也有可能有個體問題我覺得就事務的本質來講應該是跟他比較相近好那"},{"start":7678.99,"end":7684.389,"text":"有開啊好那其實我剛剛講說這個面向其實非常廣齁那我簡單review一下"},{"start":7686.088,"end":7713.07,"text":"這所謂打極詐欺行動案1.5版到底有沒有效呢老實講我如果沒有去問別人我也不確定有沒有效那剛好因為我在警大教書我上學期剛好講了一學期的詐騙犯罪的問題所以我有好幾個學生來自刑事局所以這些資訊是他們跟我講的所以我們這裡有刑事局的這個長官我想也許我講的還不夠全面不夠深入不過基本上比如說"},{"start":7714.911,"end":7725.118,"text":"Meta、Line這些所謂綠色通道、藍色通道還有Google打的還有依依政府專屬的平台他們跟我講說沒什麼用了為什麼沒什麼用我等一下會稍微講一下"},{"start":7729.636,"end":7738.066,"text":"好 那他覺得有效打詐 就剛剛那個劉副院長也講到齁比如境外篡改來電規則的擴大管制還有攔阻國際詐騙電話白名單還有要求檢訊大公司審核檢訊內容說這個有效"},{"start":7745.575,"end":7745.976,"text":"那至於 呃"},{"start":7761.172,"end":7790.341,"text":"各部會相關法令所謂打詐無法我覺得不夠就是其實在呼應剛剛那個林委員 我也認為電信管理法有待修正人頭門號的氾濫就是電信管理法根本沒有作用根本沒有作用 剛剛那個黃委員還有都提到我們對這件事是沒有管制的其實我們不知道為什麼不管 殊難想像好那再來呢 這個虛擬資產平台比如我們講說虛擬貨幣啦其實管制平台根本"},{"start":7791.101,"end":7819.106,"text":"沒什麼用 為什麼因為我聽說詐騙集團自己都設平台了有一家叫廢風他自己就是詐騙集團了所以而且現在虛擬貨幣他可以有個人所以我覺得當然技術上怎麼做我不知道但是我認為虛擬貨幣要直接納管直接納管好 那科技偵查當然大家都知道科技偵查保障法現在還在行政院還沒有出門所以我想很多科技手段根本現在都是違法的"},{"start":7820.995,"end":7847.042,"text":"另外因為我上禮拜有參加那個民眾黨他們辦的也是打詐的公聽會那裡面有很多議題我想也是打詐相關的我就簡略一下因為這上面資料就是那個網路銀行就是我們對於交易場的帳戶銀行的管控很不好了包含說這個帳戶已經被停用了停用之後其實當然他一定有匯資金來的人的資訊資料"},{"start":7848.755,"end":7875.801,"text":"你可以去告知對方說你會到詐騙機團的帳戶了還有第三方支付的問題那人道問號其實剛剛都有提到那當然個資外洩 個資外洩也是一個大問題啦因為為什麼人家可以掌握那個資外洩是普遍兩方面一個就是什麼 內鬼就像很多公司或者政府機關裡面的人他把資料拿出去賣了比如說之前衛福部也是有人這樣做那駭客侵辱"},{"start":7876.781,"end":7878.082,"text":"詐騙廣告到處衝刺﹑下架不易"},{"start":7898.388,"end":7920.027,"text":"不用個人資料就可以去用就用的人他不用提供那個資料跟我們個人的申請那個什麼那個門號完全不一樣那我就不知道為什麼會對這些人這個什麼大開方便之門那因為那個門號他有很多他有一些特徵隱匿性易取得性易替換性還有短期使用所以當然造成偵查上的斷點"},{"start":7922.062,"end":7923.063,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法院第1會議"},{"start":7936.96,"end":7937.62,"text":"簡訊﹚發送釣魚簡訊﹚最後水防彰款轉匯﹚"},{"start":7962.998,"end":7963.659,"text":"人頭門號管理在條例上看不出來"},{"start":7982.796,"end":7983.537,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8001.059,"end":8018.99,"text":"受理、申辦、電信服務、風險管理、機制、指引這指引沒有任何規範效力只是指導而已 企業不照這麼做他裡面精神說自主啦規勸啦 不然就是跟他解約啦 沒收押金啦"},{"start":8019.95,"end":8046.262,"text":"我想這種力道有用就好了所以我覺得這質疑完全沒有用那剛剛鄭老師他在對不起這個人頭門號目前在實務上其實能夠處罰也很有限有的實務上做法不一有時候是詐欺幫助詐欺罪幫助案洗錢罪幫助案但是也有無罪那對於創設人頭門號目前其實沒有看到相關判決但是我猜可能也許也可以用偽造文書"},{"start":8047.458,"end":8073.499,"text":"那剛剛鄭老師其實在他的書面資料裡面他有講到日本行動不正利用防制法那日本當然也遇到這個問題他在2005年的時候就訂立這個然後在2008年把信訪納管那我覺得日本這東西呢這個什麼我想剛剛像林志偉老師他有提到說其實日本的戰爭問題也很嚴重我想這是全球性問題所以他們要求電信業者要實名制"},{"start":8075.361,"end":8083.583,"text":"實名之後對象當然治安人那如果法人公司呢就要確認他事務所所在地而且呢在"},{"start":8085.694,"end":8104.801,"text":"轉讓行動電話的時候等等他必須要求他去做查核那如果違反當然就會處罰而且是刑罰的制裁那還有針對企業對象就是就申請這個門號的人他也有要求你如果用人頭也會處刑罰包括手機的轉讓SIM卡的轉讓這個其實他也有規範"},{"start":8114.434,"end":8141.256,"text":"那這個因為剩下一分多我就直接講到這個各位在講在那個會議資料裡面有我不講了齁我講一下詐騙廣告到處充斥齁這是昨天我還看到了齁謝金鵝還用被閃褲在詐騙謝金鵝已經講那都跟我無關喔我就不知道為什麼YouTube還讓他出來啦齁你看我因為證明說我是昨天看的齁3月13號下午一點多然後他就這樣投出"},{"start":8143.463,"end":8147.044,"text":"網路通訊服務公司復取法律責任、法律義務LINE下架最麻煩"},{"start":8167.133,"end":8185.014,"text":"前傳的保保但是下降很困難比如說他民眾報案以後他要做筆錄提供ID而且要在上面按檢舉兩個都具備了那如果是廣告連結詐騙呢要提供廣告上的這個網址還有畫面還有截圖而且只能跟刑事局報案其他機關不行他不接受而且要匯報"},{"start":8186.57,"end":8186.75,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8205.947,"end":8230.185,"text":"好 那最後我要跟各位講前兩天英國召開全球這個詐騙會議啦我覺得它裡面講到很多觀點第一個 要跨部會 要公私協力我想打詐目前就這樣做你靠後端的警察檢警法院會累死大家所以源頭的管理我覺得重一切只有管理源頭 斷源頭才有效其實你後面講的那些 剛剛黃委員提到"},{"start":8230.945,"end":8232.826,"text":"網路平台治理有問題網路通訊要審核廣告"},{"start":8252.52,"end":8252.54,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8282.8,"end":8309.004,"text":"好 謝謝吳教授的發言剛剛吳教授特別提到了對於網路平台業者要求我們要求他下架詐騙廣告現在的程序非常繁瑣而且會造成特定機關的一個業務負擔那當然在這裡也聽到有一些質疑就是說如果各大網路平台社群軟體這些公司Meta等等他們可以對網路上他們自己用戶的政治言論進行審查"},{"start":8310.365,"end":8310.686,"text":"郭重信總經理發言"},{"start":8340.887,"end":8355.992,"text":"蔣委、各位長官、委員、大家早很榮幸能參加這個會議因為我是一個禮拜...三個禮拜我被邀請那我當時也沒有接受我是說我能幫上...我很樂意因為這是公益"},{"start":8356.972,"end":8378.049,"text":"如果說我沒有幫忙我就不願意來後來我禮拜一答應來當然我就稍微了解一下剛剛有幾個問題我先聽到了先講一下就是我們如何能增加詐騙集團的成本比如說其實大家問題都把它點出來了問題在ISPA者"},{"start":8380.267,"end":8396.833,"text":"等下我後面再講所以比如說你IPS如果能把詐騙的IP跟他的那個自製意義的網你讓他多跳幾次他的成本增加你看他還會不會騙這是第一個再來就是說我緊跟著我跟預計我們提報大綱那個討論提綱來說明一下"},{"start":8401.596,"end":8401.896,"text":"國際實施國際來話阻攔及警示"},{"start":8415.359,"end":8439.938,"text":"降最多的是886那這886它為什麼能降得這麼快問題是電信業者的配合而且也是電信業者才知道怎麼樣來阻詐所以你看這個數據啊大量下降下來所以我們的問題就知道了我們應該賦予電信業者ISP業者很多的責任在這裡等一下我後面有講到我們這個是分成三階段這些"},{"start":8440.939,"end":8456.523,"text":"亂言 再加上這些平台 平台有政府的 有這些SP業者 電信業者 電商等等等等這些都是那最後 我們是受害者的 是使用者所以我們大概把它這個分成三個層面來探討問題啦所以這個電信業者 我們從剛剛這個看從886可以從1642萬通降到84萬那我問你 IP呢 網址呢"},{"start":8467.665,"end":8494.285,"text":"沒有所以這裡面我們就可以要求ISPA者去做很多的事情如果這個流量這個是大量源頭的下降的快速的技術是在這個地方那在這裡跟各位報告一下那第二個就是我要說明的就是那個銀行金融機構KYC他去年那個12年主詐8170件主詐金額是54.9"},{"start":8496.306,"end":8496.586,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":8515.344,"end":8536.376,"text":"這個有效的就是這個銀行或金融企業這邊主詐那主詐呢就是應該我們第一我們主詐的要提升他們的效力就教育信念也是一個很重要新的詐騙手法應該要第一天第二天就要到每一個前線的那個哨兵手上這個是我這樣子來那再來就是要售錢讓他們"},{"start":8537.958,"end":8539.3,"text":"銀行業者主詐與刑事警察主詐有沒有獎勵"},{"start":8553.683,"end":8570.463,"text":"防制人頭的詐騙90%下降是有效的所以這個我們應該繼續鼓勵繼續那總結他就是很簡單他就多了一些限制因素所以如果我們這些限制因素你要增加不應該"},{"start":8572.164,"end":8573.145,"text":"做得不好的地方,像平台網路廣告下架"},{"start":8595.424,"end":8610.204,"text":"平台網路廣告下架這個績效很差網路廣告那麼多為什麼下架才那麼少那我可以舉兩個例子舉兩個例子是什麼呢美國的那個ROBOT CODE就是"},{"start":8612.2,"end":8639.974,"text":"他知道誰在ROBOT CODE但是他不管他所以美國正起來就毛起來罰他他消極不復者為什麼因為你ROBOT CODE我有電話費可收嘛我有盈利嘛所以我就不願意去阻攬這件事情那我不願意去阻攬這件事情呢好美國就毛起來罰所以罰到最後讓罰款大於電信費電信業者乖乖的把它砍掉"},{"start":8641.041,"end":8660.571,"text":"第一項要乖乖的把它砍掉這個是 第二個就是美國政府對金融機構他有一個規定規定什麼呢你對客戶聯繫 以客戶聯繫必須留下保留完整的紀錄結果有十幾家銀行他不理美國政府他用FastAPP來跟客戶來聯繫客戶來聯繫的話美國政府24個月對十幾家銀行總共罰了3億美金問題沒了"},{"start":8669.895,"end":8690.913,"text":"也就是說我剛剛談到的是我們這些問題裡面的源頭亂言跟受害者中間整個平台有政府有如果你這個地方我們對那些業者我的那個剛剛我原先不知道亂言在哪裡原來是第二類我們是一個善良的老百姓我們善良的老百姓我們是申請門號要雙證件三證件"},{"start":8692.955,"end":8701.975,"text":"結果第二類第三類大放水所以我們的IP從來源到末端沒有辦法完全掌控那我們的那個"},{"start":8705.06,"end":8712.503,"text":"這個是我到後面再講,因為這個我想說依據我的程序來報才會比較密集再來就是我看到了防詐雷達或者是檢訊防詐雷達有一點點效,這科技的效用只要有一點點我們就應該做"},{"start":8726.38,"end":8750.185,"text":"能足足百分之十、百分之二十我們都應該做那簡信這個關鍵字這個也有效這個繼續做但是我認為有一個就是比如說我們那個防詐APP政府應該開花你以前有Who's Call就告訴我這是詐騙集團來電話我就會不理他那如果說你這個是海外來的我就不理他你做二類轉一類從"},{"start":8751.865,"end":8775.62,"text":"從那個一類到二類到國外再從二類轉一類回來我根本就直接那個我有這個防詐APP的話我就直接就掛斷了就不理他了嘛所以這個是大概我認為就是說在成效上還要再加強的部分我再稍微說明一下至於哪些需要強化的部分我大概是從認識敵人瞭解問題找出問題面對問題解決問題這個方向來講首先我們要認識"},{"start":8780.123,"end":8780.143,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8806.414,"end":8807.415,"text":"網路業者﹑電信業者﹑網路業者﹑"},{"start":8831.4,"end":8850.716,"text":"所以我們的敵人是這樣子他組成的這個成員那他的詐騙這個劇情都是有前述這些專家人員利用人性的漏點包括你恐懼你怕違法等等所以有檢察官有說舅舅你請救我我前兩天才接到舅舅我是某某的我說你叫什麼名字掛斷了"},{"start":8852.197,"end":8872.455,"text":"所以他都利用人性弱點 這個劇情都是經過推演的喔他們也不是說你這樣的推演然後有問題他才那個齁所以我們這個簡訊大概就是這樣所以我們的敵人是一個非常高科技的一個手法你不要把他當成他是很low的齁"},{"start":8873.596,"end":8873.816,"text":"主要的問題有三簡信"},{"start":8899.845,"end":8915.299,"text":"詐騙簡訊、釣魚簡訊都如牛毛平台、廣告、下架、牛部化、還有輕罪化這剛剛都已經有講到了結束了那我們找出問題剛剛我已經講到了就是內容加害者這個平台我們大概是這樣子"},{"start":8922.259,"end":8947.856,"text":"我直接講到解決問題好啦因為資料請參閱啦因為我第一個我們科技偵查的速度要這個一定要開放齁你不要用到講各自這個一定要把它開放你不開放啦這個它的受害啊受限啦就我們的敵人已經那麼強大結果我們自己不用條繩子把我們自己這些檢調單位把它綁起來因為無法施展武功齁"},{"start":8948.897,"end":8977.194,"text":"再來就是我們所有的東西啊因為我們受騙都是那些硬體的電信硬體那些硬體很死很很舊比如中華電信那些都是抵不過那個他那個對犯罪的那些他都直接擺PASS所以這個以硬體為主軟體為輔那目標是要護端點斷金流斬源頭護端點就是剛我講的像我們如果有"},{"start":8978.812,"end":9005.093,"text":"報警的協助系統的話我這樣子拿國際合作然後好這個才真正的源頭就DNS的功能要精進精進的東西把DNS的功能精進到有管理有控制有比對有認證有查詢甚至於我可以找到他的歸屬注意機跟實體位置這個我想這個那個秘書長他聽的應該很知道在IP數位"},{"start":9006.324,"end":9031.634,"text":"以究責實體強綁定且雙證件認定這個就可以找到我們IP的位置那建立一個反詐情緒庫偵查工具工具庫還有就是AI的資料庫擬出這些反制的一些目標比如說我們平常就這些資料庫建好我就去海撈比如說都是白天call in比call out那個多再來是通話時間"},{"start":9034.284,"end":9057.869,"text":"兩極要嘛就講話講很久要嘛講很短講很久就釣魚釣到了講很短就騙不到的還有就是這個電話筒長時間逮逮圖握住的而且是在白天為什麼因為我晚上詐騙會騷擾到你嘛你一定不會理我嘛再來就DNS你裡面的URL你一個"},{"start":9059.585,"end":9088.193,"text":"一個IP有多個URL或一個URL有多個IP還有我們IP跟DNS連線要錢解析這些東西內這些上述問題都是我們那個誰最清楚ISP業者最清楚服務你不能只賺錢不負責任你造成的垃圾錢沒負擔政府只要比較另外就是政府比較金融機關弄一個金管會來管理這些金融的那我們這些ISP業者有沒有人在管"},{"start":9089.073,"end":9089.314,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9104.446,"end":9105.806,"text":"謝謝郭總經理 接下來有請莊委員瑞雄"},{"start":9140.728,"end":9165.242,"text":"謝謝趙偉我們在場所有這麼多的學者專家各位好朋友我剛很用心的去聆聽各位的寶貴的一個意見但是我一直會覺得說一個公聽會完以後我們到底要達到什麼樣的一個目的有沒有辦法達到這樣的一個目的我一直都認為說我們其實現在整個法制是夠的"},{"start":9166.71,"end":9190.638,"text":"法律是夠的那重點是說有時候你說基層的檢警檢察官起訴了那起訴完以後那你碰到法官他對詐欺犯他的評價到底是什麼那有時候如果說你又他沒有被騙過的或者他認為這個是惡性這很抽象如果是把他輕判那我相信這個實在是很難去遏制"},{"start":9196.203,"end":9201.209,"text":"我們現在要做一個大家都很清楚的回想,以前的時代,因為大陸的山頂,比較上四季的,大家不怕雨,在外面走,去山頂拿水果,吃吃就飽,回家睡覺"},{"start":9214.805,"end":9214.825,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9234.571,"end":9248.666,"text":"為了搶錢然後到最後用那樣來一個方式發展到現在大家聰明了用騙的也不用去搶銀行了行責也不用那麼重了那現在我們為什麼在先進國家裡面我們碰到很大的一個問題就是管轄權的問題我們這個整個台灣我們這個國際上的一個處境讓我們很困難"},{"start":9257.266,"end":9263.308,"text":"我剛聽了那個委員一直講說 啊是不是啊 那個詐騙人要怎麼追回 你要怎麼追回有時候你很偵查 黃社長也在這 有時候你要偵查 人家不一定要跟你配合啊尤其是我們在先進國家裡面 我們為什麼會變這麼嚴重"},{"start":9275.592,"end":9290.197,"text":"每一個先進國家詐騙都很多啦這台灣就特別嚴重我們的國際地位的問題啊為什麼很多人要跑到中國去為什麼很多人要跑到東南亞去就很簡單啦我就讓你政府拿我沒辦法啊我犯就哪怕被你追到以後"},{"start":9290.817,"end":9299.828,"text":"抓到以後你要把那個錢追回來我看都非常不容易啊所以啊 司法的互助啊這部份喔 法務部部長 黃市長 你知道在想想辦法啦我們政府這個部分如果司法互助的部分沒有跟其他的國家再多簽幾個"},{"start":9307.637,"end":9308.037,"text":"公聽會８詐欺犯罪防制立法院第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":9328.326,"end":9328.927,"text":"現代社會已經走入教育型所以我也只能從這個地方幾個部分"},{"start":9349.545,"end":9349.985,"text":"本國籍或外國籍人士"},{"start":9366.44,"end":9370.562,"text":"可以把它降低下來就很夠了那所以呢最近大家看到的就是移民的部分移工的部分不管是婚姻的移民的拘留代辦詐騙這也是還有啊我們整個也是很多被收取高額的代辦費其實很多很多那個因為都是因為法規不熟悉的問題那這些在社會上也一直在發生那像很多人在社群裡面去做一個聯繫然後利用移工對這個整個親友的思念跟關心"},{"start":9396.115,"end":9400.979,"text":"發出偽造：求救的訊息每天都會上當所以這些我反而會覺得說我們檢教機關也該多用點心了人頭賬戶這個部分剛剛大家有提到也不要忘記人頭賬戶你只要看東南亞漁工去台灣100萬萬"},{"start":9419.995,"end":9436.606,"text":"立法院這一部分其實大部分都是黑素我們目前針對詐騙的統計調查裡面我看我們現在好像也沒有納入東南亞這個部分你們也無從去把它做一個納入這個移工的一個族群所以這個部分我認為政府既然來到我們這個地方那一塊會很大的問題那我想"},{"start":9447.659,"end":9460.726,"text":"很多政府可以去做的部分 我們很輕易可以做 但是沒有做好的啦比如警政署你也在這 衛務部你也在這 勞動部你也在這你只要針對這塊 你都會在那裡廣告啊你那個就是虛硬故事而已嘛 在我看來就是虛硬故事而已嘛 為什麼你這個泰國人 你不就要讓人看得懂的語言"},{"start":9473.829,"end":9479.264,"text":"你針對東南亞的這些移工的你要用他們懂的語言你要用我們的語言在那邊講他們哪會聽得懂"},{"start":9482.072,"end":9482.172,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":9508.138,"end":9517.161,"text":"我們確實是缺乏快速跟簡易舉報的APP或者一個網頁1955跟1656先作為舉報的一個機制而已那怎麼樣去確保他們個人的一個資訊的隱私或者保護這個部分讓他們可以快速來做一個舉報我認為我們也該設計讓他們提供他們一個管道所以我今天就"},{"start":9533.464,"end":9550.313,"text":"拉哩拉扎的這樣子聽完各位的我很怕說這個公聽會完以後啊大家各言而治以後又沒有達到真正的一個目的看到我們那個1.5版本那個被批評為說國家最大是一個國家最大的一個詐騙我都為你們而暴驅啦我講一句實在啦但問題就是說確實是氾濫啦確實是這麼多啊"},{"start":9558.837,"end":9558.997,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":9580.029,"end":9580.109,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9604.505,"end":9609.627,"text":"他哪會讓你這麼容易他會要求你這個國家全部都給他凍結你如果中邪當然我們要求他理都不理我們所以這個司法付諸的部分我覺得那個黃市長你們有責任在整個國家加強去跟其他國家不管用什麼樣的一個方式加強去把它建立起來那對我們國人對你們的期待要不然你們要什麼日本人今天都給你們擠氣了"},{"start":9632.421,"end":9632.801,"text":"謝謝專委員 現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":9660.785,"end":9663.258,"text":"休息後我們繼續請蔡前院長發言"},{"start":10014.353,"end":10014.793,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10039.838,"end":10045.398,"text":"好我們繼續開會那接下來有請蔡院長發言請"},{"start":10061.838,"end":10071.307,"text":"主席還有在座的委員政府官員還有各位學者專家大家好首先非常感謝委員會邀請我這個已經退休的司法人員來這邊還有機會可以表達對這個重要議題的意見那我以下呢就僅就是依照我們委員會列的這個討論提綱依序來表達我個人的意見"},{"start":10086.04,"end":10095.148,"text":"第一個提綱關於是不是要原定打詐專法的問題剛才已經有非常多的專家都有表達意見許多專家有贊成的我聽起來比較多我個人對這個部分我想表達一點我的看法"},{"start":10108.178,"end":10113.841,"text":"行政院頒的新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版從去年6月頒訂執行到現在才8個月左右還不到一年"},{"start":10122.765,"end":10125.327,"text":"而且在那個同時,行政院為了強化打擊這個詐騙也同時修訂了打詐五法所謂的打詐五法是刑法、洗錢防治法、證券投資信託及顧問法還有個人資料保護法跟人口販運防治法這幾個法也才公布施行8個月左右"},{"start":10146.764,"end":10171.061,"text":"也就是說這個新的行動綱領跟新的法都實施還不到一年那它的成效到底如何其實我今天來開會才在桌上看到各政府機關的一些書面報告但是呢最新的關於這個新的這個執行績效不是非常具體所以呢我是認為說應該還要再檢視這個行動綱領跟上面的這個打詐無法的執行成效"},{"start":10177.065,"end":10188.991,"text":"來檢討它有沒有落實﹚或者是有沒有什麼執行院的缺失﹚而不是馬上就說要再修法﹚或者是另外訂一個專法﹚因為訂一個專法前提是我們要知道我們要補強什麼﹚就是我們去年剛修的法律還有漏洞嗎﹚或者是還有不足之處嗎﹚那有了這個前提我們才能去討論說我們現在要修專法﹚然後專法呢﹚要有哪一些補強的方向﹚"},{"start":10205.76,"end":10215.448,"text":"所謂的打詐無法 剛才講的以外 去年也同時修訂了組織犯罪防制條例 為了柬埔寨把一些台灣人弄到柬埔寨具"},{"start":10221.593,"end":10223.214,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":10238.523,"end":10241.685,"text":"因此根據上面的各個專法﹐不但是出借或買賣人頭賬戶﹐網路投資詐騙廣告的限制及禁止﹐都已經有了明文的規定﹐而且還有加重罰則﹐在刑法已經徵定了加重妨礙自由及加重詐欺罪﹐同時也修正了各自法﹐"},{"start":10263.556,"end":10268.718,"text":"那去年修的各支法又新設了一個個人資料保護委員會將來會由這個委員會來專責主管這個各支保護的政策以及執行所以呢從以上的這一些立法的內容來看那不管是從這個行動綱領1.5的這個版本從行政面或者是刑事處罰面呢我都認為說"},{"start":10288.965,"end":10303.373,"text":"基本上已經有建立必要的法制規範所以我滿認同剛才莊委員所講的就是法制面的部分我覺得目前就是並沒有明顯的缺漏那如果有還必須要再仔細的檢討才行"},{"start":10305.595,"end":10319.209,"text":"現在必須要觀察的就是說執行面有沒有落實有沒有自愛難行之處我目前因為看不出在法制面有哪一些必須要再補強的地方所以我個人目前對於現在這個時間點要訂定專法我是持比較保留的態度而且"},{"start":10326.195,"end":10338.122,"text":"以我過去是一個檢察官的立場因為立法院除了剛才的這些基本的法以外如果在另外長出一個專法將來恐怕是跌闖架務而且會造成執法人執法機關在適用法律的困難與混淆那再來呢剛才有幾位不管是委員或者是專家都有提到兩型的問題"},{"start":10353.691,"end":10367.019,"text":"這也牽涉到說我們訂定專法的目的是不是也是為了要再提高相關的詐欺犯罪的刑度那如果是這樣的話呢那我就比較質疑這是不是對症下藥的良策"},{"start":10368.6,"end":10396.877,"text":"高檢署才在上個月 今年的2月1號才發布一個新聞稿這個新聞稿特別指出說詐欺案件外界典有批評是刑度過輕所以高檢署為了要促進妥適良行已經在去年年底還有今年年初陸續召開多次的會議那也就是組成良行小組來彙整一二審檢察官的意見那同時也邀集了"},{"start":10397.958,"end":10413.836,"text":"就是相關的警察機關調查局來討論新的良形因子希望能夠加強良形的就是收集資料那能夠在案件徵結的時候妥適求刑那也希望能夠讓法院妥適良形"},{"start":10414.797,"end":10416.879,"text":"有以上高檢署發布的新聞資料,也可以了解目前有關於網路電信詐騙的刑罰並沒有過輕的狀況而是法院良心有可能部分沒有辦法符合社會的期待"},{"start":10431.349,"end":10450.229,"text":"所以如果說修法的目的是為了要提高刑督那我認為這也不是解決問題的方法那詐騙犯罪不但要抓得到還要判得重而且要關得到才能夠發揮刑法的嚇阻效果那這個部分也是這個刑事司法執行面的問題而不是立法面的問題"},{"start":10452.804,"end":10480.215,"text":"有關於社群平臺有沒有主動協助下架詐騙廣告的責任我看去年5月底修正通過的《證券投資信託及顧問法》已經有新增一個條文70條之一其中第二項已經有明文規定就是網際網路平臺的提供者還有網際網路應用服務"},{"start":10481.115,"end":10497.566,"text":"提供者等等這些就是網路傳播媒體業者不得刊登或播送詐騙廣告那如果刊登或播送以後才知道的呢那應該要主動或是受到司法警察機關的通知在期限內移除"},{"start":10498.467,"end":10501.03,"text":"限制瀏覽或停止播送等其他必要處置依照這個規定社群平台不但有事前審查投資廣告的責任也有主動或被動下架不法投資廣告的義務"},{"start":10516.894,"end":10542.448,"text":"那他若有違反那有就是高額的行政處裁法那如果他不改善還可以連續處罰所以我覺得這個在法制面也是有依據的那只是不知道說這個規定實施以來到底執行了成效怎麼樣恐怕也需要主管機關給大家一個比較就是說明確的執行成效報告才可以作為這個將來政策改善評估的基礎"},{"start":10543.749,"end":10548.314,"text":"金融機構及虛擬資產平台管制措施要不要改進?目前基層遇到困難據我瞭解目前基層檢察官對於網路電信詐騙案件氾濫"},{"start":10564.791,"end":10586.611,"text":"他們最大的抱怨不是什麼刑罰不足的問題而是網路交易的金融監理跟個資遭到洩漏以及濫用的問題那譬如說金融帳戶尤其是數位帳戶開戶很容易查核不實導致人頭帳戶氾濫第三方支付平台腐爛欠缺有效監管等等"},{"start":10587.432,"end":10602.299,"text":"那麼人頭帳戶的問題呢去年因為有修改洗錢防治法那第15條之一之二都可以規範但是因為這個法實施也不到一年了就是到底有沒有落實執行成效如何例如說警察呢"},{"start":10602.899,"end":10626.971,"text":"依照洗錢防治法對於人頭賬戶﹐發出警告的件數有多少?銀行對於遭到警告的這些人頭賬戶﹐他們在申請開戶有沒有拒絕﹐或者是更嚴格的查核措施?這個我都沒有辦法從現有的手邊資料了解所以這個部分必須要再做進一步的評估各自遭洩漏及濫用的問題﹐這也涉及到不同事業單位的"},{"start":10630.273,"end":10630.533,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整"},{"start":10651.957,"end":10656.578,"text":"那法務部剛剛在這個上個月底已經定班了一個重要的行政的規定就是關於這個人頭帳戶的暫停限制功能或經與關閉的管理辦法那如果根據這個辦法對於曾經提供人頭帳戶的高風險者可以進行全面的管制那新申請開戶必須要嚴加查核舊帳戶轉帳額度也會受到限制"},{"start":10677.725,"end":10682.169,"text":"讓詐團難以再向這些高風險的人索取使用新制裁剛剛實行沒有幾天3月1號才上路所以如果各金融機構能夠確實落實這個辦法的規定我相信從源頭解堵詐團來利用人頭賬戶"},{"start":10695.382,"end":10724.009,"text":"作為詐騙工具應該也可以發揮一定的成效那最後就是科技偵查的問題那我也支持說法務部過去幾年花很多時間研擬的科技偵查法草案建議就是大院可以儘速的進入審議雖然它一直有人權的爭議可是如果不進入審議的階段就沒有辦法進行治安跟人權的對話那我覺得希望就是說大院可以重視這件事情因為它是偵查的工具最重要的工具謝謝"},{"start":10726.442,"end":10731.637,"text":"感謝蔡前院長接下來由李怡光律師發言"},{"start":10740.531,"end":10769.951,"text":"主席各位先進大家好非常感謝委員會的邀請讓我能夠來這邊做把個人的潛見為各位做一個簡要的一個說明那首先針對今天的這個討論的這個提綱我個人是就是按照這提綱的這個順序來逐一加以說明第一個就是針對這個我們所謂的這個打詐的這個行動綱領1.5版執行到現在那對打詐是否有這個成效那我想這個是應該是有一定的成效"},{"start":10770.051,"end":10770.151,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10794.324,"end":10816.895,"text":"所以他不只是身上的錢被詐騙完,連賴以維生居住的房子都被設定抵押權了所以我想政府所做的對於人民的需求來講是永遠是不夠的啦是政府應該做的這個職責,應該要更加的努力那對於說打詐的方式我想今天大家都討論很多那我們政府在去年也提出了一個打詐的行動綱理1.5版"},{"start":10818.436,"end":10844.876,"text":"那我還特別有去看了一下 有大概76頁 非常多 各個部門都有提供他們的建議那我要想的是說 那為什麼這麼多優秀的部門 這麼多的菁英大家提出來的這個意見 那做出來之後 那怎麼效果都還沒有那麼顯著我想不是這個方法有問題 是執行有問題 是執行的問題我覺得今天打詐的問題 今天我們在一直在立法立法"},{"start":10845.316,"end":10845.456,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10864.964,"end":10865.224,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10882.437,"end":10902.423,"text":"對這綱頂的內容呢應該最主要是說倍多利分說起來看起來目前來講確實去執行打詐機關我認為說我們的政府沒有一個中央的一個組織機構沒有一個中央組織機構我認為說其實今天打詐要分兩個層面第一個中央要事權統一要有一個統一的機制"},{"start":10903.973,"end":10923.102,"text":"另外一個就是要去中心化是什麼打詐一定要去中心化也就是中央跟中央要有一個集中的事權的統一的組織統合各個部會各個部會集中所有力量才能夠去共同去打詐同樣另外一個問題是在於說打詐以外你要同時要去做的是什麼問責"},{"start":10924.883,"end":10933.848,"text":"問責你做不好才有問責的單位那你今天每個單位都負責每個人都有自己的業務那每個人做個人的業務那因為你現在所做打詐的業務都是"},{"start":10934.913,"end":10961.45,"text":"業外的工作都不是你本業的工作所以當然就沒有辦法去看出它的成效那如果有一個專責機構的話那就有問責的單位所以我個人認為說第一個中央要集中要有一個長設的一個專責的一個委員會來負責這個打詐的業務那第二個就是說真正在地方來看在執行上來講要去中心化去中心化也就是說今天打詐絕對不會是政府機關的事情"},{"start":10962.17,"end":10990.948,"text":"打詐其實應該就像垃圾分類一樣垃圾分類如果是所有的民眾都把垃圾丟到焚化爐丟到焚化爐之後才做分類我想大家都做到累死也做不完這個分類工作但是如果說打詐在做打詐各個方面的這個合作方面由公司合作由公民來合作的話那在最每一個每一個角落每一個人民都是一個打詐的一個守衛者"},{"start":10991.408,"end":10991.428,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11015.106,"end":11034.424,"text":"明示一個窩裡反條款以外我個人是建議說應該還另外一個設置一個檢舉的破案獎金檢舉破案獎金因為我們從詐欺的案件來看他基本上來講他們是一個計畫性智慧型的犯罪你要破獲他的首腦是非常不容易你只能透過窩裡反的方式才比較有可能抓到首謀"},{"start":11035.365,"end":11058.224,"text":"那現在我們的刑法大家一直在定就越定越重越定越重那請問一下像古人所講的明不畏死奈何以死畏之既然連死都不怕了那他還有什麼好怕的你刑法已經定到這樣的一個程度已經接近快要跟殺人罪的程度都差不多了但是詐欺案件還是不斷的發生可見重刑不是唯一的方法"},{"start":11058.644,"end":11083.797,"text":"我覺得就像一所預言裡面的北風跟太陽的故事你用北風加重刑罰以外我們同時用利誘的方式就是以高額的這個檢舉獎金來利誘他們來做一個窩裡反做一個窩裡反之後這些詐欺犯罪的人基本上來講他就是缺金錢缺金錢那金錢來講對他是有個誘因因此你如果我們可以除了這個準用正能保護法來"},{"start":11085.325,"end":11110.787,"text":"剪清他們的刑責以外那也可以用這個破案的這個檢舉獎金來讓他們內部的窩裡反那當然各位也會再問那他詐欺我們還給他錢幹什麼我認為說詐欺給錢目的是要破案犯罪那詐欺所給予的獎金的來源可以從查獲到的犯罪所得當然除了返還給被害人以外除了這個剩餘的這個犯罪所得或者是沒收的"},{"start":11111.488,"end":11111.849,"text":"公聽會員：完整會議"},{"start":11129.811,"end":11133.415,"text":"公務機關與民間合作以外我認為電信機關與金融機關責無旁貸該負應負的責任特別是在利益衡量上來看假設繼續"},{"start":11145.926,"end":11151.214,"text":"大肆發放電信卡或金融帳戶給詐欺集團還獲得利益但是政府對於求償或處罰並不足夠的時候沒有誘因讓他們積極改善你要達到"},{"start":11161.007,"end":11188.371,"text":"公民合作的目的也就是說打詐不是政府的事情是公務機關跟民間共同合作的目的的話我認為應該科與這些特許機關特別是金融機關跟電信機關一定的賠償責任跟一定的罰則這樣子才有比較有可能達到公民合作的目的也就是說今天他基於利益考量的時候認為今天被處罰的這個罰金高於他所獲得的利潤的時候他才會真正的去重視去防止"},{"start":11188.891,"end":11189.892,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11212.592,"end":11233.752,"text":"主持操縱只會詐欺組織犯罪可以處3年以上10年以下有期徒刑那加重規定是處5年以上有期徒刑其他的規定5年以上最高是15年也就是說縱然依照這個規定最高刑度是15年他的立法可能還是有問題為什麼因為他是用組織犯罪的方式來處理組織犯罪的話假設一個詐欺集團犯了100個罪"},{"start":11234.833,"end":11235.234,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11249.415,"end":11252.277,"text":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11268.266,"end":11283.336,"text":"那至於說有關那個查追查贓物的部分我個人是認為說像虛擬貨幣的部分確實是一個洗錢非常重要的一個工具我自己承辦案件裡面就是詐欺集團基本上來講就是用虛擬貨幣而且他們很喜歡用的就是泰達幣"},{"start":11284.196,"end":11309.266,"text":"因為泰達幣基本上它是跟美元是1比1而且沒有像那個比特幣一樣有重大的這個通膨的問題的話價格會上下波動所以我個人認為說應該要把虛擬貨幣把它納入到監管裡面這當然就是說有一個中央一個主管機關能夠加以統合來處理那至於說新興科技偵查工具的部分我個人跟前面幾位先進的看法倒不是那麼一樣從律師的這個角度來看我認為說"},{"start":11310.546,"end":11310.566,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11325.563,"end":11325.723,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":11349.995,"end":11366.824,"text":"另外第二點必須要符合法律保留原則也是一定要有法律授權最後我個人認為說應該要符合這個法官保留原則也就是最後的這個核准權限應該要回歸到法官裡面結論一句話就是不能夠亂世用重罰反而在亂世要冷靜的立法謝謝好謝謝那麼那個幫我拿給張律師謝謝我們"},{"start":11377.591,"end":11377.691,"text":"請交給張委員"},{"start":11414.227,"end":11430.622,"text":"今天討論的這個議題主要是源自於有本院李昆城委員對於詐欺組織犯罪防制條例的草案提出所以本委員會來進行 那我以下就很快的來進行那麼詐團上派工 檢調殺豬工 AI騙人眾"},{"start":11432.324,"end":11459.852,"text":"人手定不夠那我們來看一下目前面對詐欺國人最在意的排序經過剛剛國人討論很清楚是希望能夠做回賬款然後呢將集團的首腦繩之一環記住是集團的首腦不是車手抓一些車手民眾覺得並沒有打擊到詐團第三呢當然是希望減少被騷擾的次數這大概是指沒有上當的人而言但是緊要面臨哪些問題呢首先也提到了首腦窩藏在境外難以溯源"},{"start":11460.652,"end":11461.372,"text":"網絡科技犯罪的匿名性高"},{"start":11480.297,"end":11504.047,"text":"這些轉接呢 我們就很難追查那其次呢 還有提到 詐欺網路廣告無法即時下架那在這當中啊 我們有聽到了在未來行政院正在擬定的投信投顧法 就是今天在制定的呢 有要求啊在經過政府有關機關要求之後 詐騙廣告大概24小時下架但是面對這樣的一個修法方向"},{"start":11504.887,"end":11504.907,"text":"詐騙廣告"},{"start":11528.832,"end":11530.935,"text":"民營業者：中信營：台北富邦：各自與行政警察合作："},{"start":11549.676,"end":11549.976,"text":"虛擬資產犯難無專法可管"},{"start":11567.941,"end":11586.272,"text":"南非幣這種實體的貨幣投資那算是投資的一種風險高風險高利率那這種消費者自己可能要去找經銷銷經評議委員會去討公道那比特幣這種虛幣呢它的交易怎麼管理更何況那種完全不存在的有餘幣這些都是"},{"start":11587.673,"end":11603.753,"text":"當這種情況之下我們看看詐團的犯罪的他的工具有AI可以自動製造詐騙廣告同時他透過科技的層層移轉快速起錢另外也製造了網路斷點隱匿自身可是相對的我們檢調他的偵查防制工具是傳統的有限的"},{"start":11604.513,"end":11605.674,"text":"詐欺犯罪防制立法及各部會打詐機制盤點"},{"start":11628.853,"end":11657.219,"text":"針對詐欺的源頭進行管理並且希望能夠完整的做回賬款但是相對的我們還有其他的專法之外還有其他的配合比如說科技偵查法剛剛有學者專家提到那麼科技委員也提到科技偵查法應該不限定是偵查網路詐欺應該提供給警方新興的科技偵查工具具備有證據能力這裡面圖了說的M花車還有GPS定位"},{"start":11657.739,"end":11657.879,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11679.213,"end":11679.433,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":11700.359,"end":11700.499,"text":"公聽會．事由．"},{"start":11717.688,"end":11730.459,"text":"主卻詐欺犯罪的防制條例能在本院來進出通過那謝謝我們的李委員昆城到場今天委員會就是就你提出的草案來做一個標的來廣徵各隊的意見 謝謝大家 謝謝好 那麼接下來我們請蔡學儀 蔡律師發言"},{"start":11762.058,"end":11775.451,"text":"委員：各位與會的先進：各位法學的先進：各位專家學者大家好我是與合聯合法律事務所的所長蔡學蔡律師我同時也是司法改革基金會的常務執行委員今天很榮幸來參加這個公聽會"},{"start":11780.296,"end":11803.224,"text":"我想大家都知道這幾年詐騙集團的猖獗已經到了這個人神共憤的程度不只是我們自己隨身使用的手機門號會被詐騙集團用這個電話來騷擾甚至連過去我曾經擔任過檢察官跟法官的這個時期自己在辦公室就是法官跟檢察官的辦公室裡面的公務電話都曾經接到詐騙集團打電話來要來詐騙"},{"start":11807.285,"end":11830.849,"text":"在這樣的情況來說這幾年的詐騙案件成長這麼的快速已經成為所有刑事案件的之冠了那民眾被詐騙的金額也是越來越高那檢警調單位為了偵辦這些詐騙的案件已經讓各單位的人力捉襟見肘有很明顯不足的地方我們可以說這個詐騙案件幾乎是癱瘓了我們的這個檢警調的量能"},{"start":11835.05,"end":11847.317,"text":"而在政府單位投入這麼多的檢體要人員的時候為什麼民眾仍然卻是無感甚至還稱台灣是詐騙之島這中間到底是出了什麼樣的問題我想確實是有必要來檢討那當然從新聞報導"},{"start":11850.239,"end":11859.369,"text":"我們可以有看到一些新聞提到說NCC有聯合電信業者來阻絕這個境外的詐騙電話封鎖這個加886開頭的電話播布臺灣這樣的措施我們聽到是說確實是有效的降低許多這個詐騙的電話打給民眾但民眾仍然無感"},{"start":11871.301,"end":11896.688,"text":"這是因為我個人認為啦就是上有政策下有對策所謂的道高一尺磨高一丈那老人家也常講這些詐騙集團的成員其實他們都非常的智慧型是屬於智慧型的反而非常聰明他都知道該怎麼樣去因應所有政府機關的一些防制措施因此我認為說"},{"start":11898.598,"end":11910.994,"text":"在這樣的情況之下政府機關在提出相關的防堵、詐騙、打詐的情況這些措施也應該要隨時能夠加以因應跟調整那我們今天要"},{"start":11912.663,"end":11933.563,"text":"雖然說討論詐騙案件很多,我們執法單位都抓不完或許我們也要換位思考一下為什麼這麼多人去從事這個詐騙的行為為什麼這麼多年輕人願意加入詐騙集團去從事詐騙行為人家都常講殺頭的生意有人做,但是虧本的生意不會有人做"},{"start":11934.818,"end":11954.856,"text":"所以如果說這個犯罪的利益非常的高﹐被抓的風險又比較低一點﹐甚至說被抓到之後﹐被處罰的程度也是可以接受﹐可以接受的範圍之內的話﹐我相信未來從事詐騙集團的年輕人一定是越來越多"},{"start":11958.539,"end":11985.74,"text":"我們從這邊也可以知道,詐騙這一個案件,就是因為我們定的刑度雖然很高,但是法院判的結果,刑度顯然是跟民眾預期起來是有點落差的,是比較偏低的。但是我們來盤點目前法制面的情況,不管是刑事實體法,組織犯罪條例,洗錢防治法等等,其實都是重型化處理。"},{"start":11986.661,"end":12000.617,"text":"那為什麼重刑化他們還是不怕因為他們就是覺得不容易被抓到幕後的這些主謀、主使他們可以躲在這個科技的後面讓你找不到他人那他們所"},{"start":12001.578,"end":12001.598,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12032.659,"end":12054.529,"text":"如果我們要去阻絕這些詐騙集團從事詐騙行為我想應該不只是從源頭裡面去阻止說民眾不要被騙更重要的是更提早讓詐騙集團的成本去提高剛剛前面已經有很多前輩都有提到了我們應該要去監管他們的金融帳戶還有電信門號"},{"start":12057.791,"end":12072.759,"text":"這些人頭帳戶人頭門號其實取得的成本以前不高而且非常容易現在還是取得容易只是說他們成本增加了如果各位有興趣的話可以去像臨書這種社團裡面去參加找尋一下叫偏門交易的社團裡面有"},{"start":12079.643,"end":12097.157,"text":"每天都有很多的貼文在跟你講說而且是明示暗示說他要的就是人頭的帳戶人頭的電信門號而且還會告訴你說我們會教你事後如果被警方抓到了如何去做答辯你所需要的一些答辯的證據資料比如說對話軟體裡面的這些對話紀錄"},{"start":12102.361,"end":12125.438,"text":"他也可以事先幫你做好讓你可以不用過於擔心未來被檢警追查的時候的行者那這些東西都是未來不管是檢察官在調查的時候或是法院在審理的階段要有辦法去識別我想都有一定程度的困難點那講這個只是要提說詐騙集團確實他們的應變能力非常快那我們要去"},{"start":12133.996,"end":12158.588,"text":"像這次的公聽會有提到像是李昆仁委員所提出來這些專法的部分要加重刑責事實上我認為現行專法以外就已經有足夠的法律來規範這樣的犯罪行為只是說當檢警要抓到之後如何讓他們被定罪這個才更重要的那要定罪不外乎就是要有證據來註意證明說他的犯罪"},{"start":12158.948,"end":12173.144,"text":"那證據在刑事訴訟法規定裡面 證據要有證據能力那現在警察官警察所提用這個科技偵查所收集到的證據又被最高法院認為說絕大部分是沒有經過法院授權"},{"start":12173.985,"end":12200.563,"text":"那這樣的情況不能使用這樣的證據那自然有很多的犯罪是沒有辦法在審理的階段讓法院有足夠的資料來判定說他是有犯罪的情況那所以我認為說我們要通過這些專法以外可能還要先考慮說先將檢察官手上能夠去調查證據取得證據的這些工具這些武器能夠趕快交到檢察官的手上"},{"start":12201.483,"end":12230.011,"text":"尤其就是我們可能之前剛剛前面很多前輩所提到的數位偵查法或是科技偵查法這些裡面有很多很多的項目是要給警察以及假官一個有利的武器來打擊這些犯罪的如果沒有這些武器我們的實體法規定的再高縱使全部判全部讓他們規定成是唯一死刑好了你沒有足夠證據沒辦法定罪這些人通通還是會用無罪的方式走出法院"},{"start":12230.791,"end":12239.525,"text":"所以這部分可能還是要請大院能夠競速的就這部分來演你說 看要怎麼樣去解決各界的分歧"},{"start":12241.308,"end":12262.118,"text":"另外我這邊還要提出一點就是說剛剛那個黃國昌委員有提到所以我們刑事案件不是只有詐欺罪一樣而已每一個警察還有檢察官法官手上案件都不是只有詐欺犯罪還有其他各式各樣的犯罪有待需要去調查去審理那我們當然"},{"start":12263.419,"end":12282.426,"text":"不斷地加重這些詐騙集團的刑責不斷地給予檢察官還有警察工具手段去偵查犯罪但是我們要想一下當我們的檢警人員我們的司法人員已經被各式各樣大量的案件壓得喘不過氣來的時候就算他眼前有一把衝鋒"},{"start":12283.306,"end":12283.466,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":12299.865,"end":12319.761,"text":"我在司法改革基金會裡面我們有一個小組叫做減輕司法負擔我們不希望外界誤解就是說減輕司法負擔為的是說將一些對於人民的法律侵害較小的一些犯罪或是一些爛數的情形盡量排除在司法機關以外讓司法人員能夠騰出手來擁有足夠的時間還有體力去針對"},{"start":12324.104,"end":12324.644,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12348.352,"end":12348.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12368.186,"end":12368.386,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12388.561,"end":12397.349,"text":"好 謝謝蔡律師先做公聽會程序的處理上午的會議時間繼續進行到所有發言經結束為止接續請黃珊珊委員發言"},{"start":12411.601,"end":12412.161,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12442.621,"end":12467.148,"text":"從整個國家的體制都不斷的在打詐但是台灣的詐騙反而越來越猖獗我想第一個當然是國內很多的民眾他們從他們現在增加的所謂的投資詐騙交友詐騙都可以看出來民眾對於所謂的被詐騙的這種狀況的警覺性還是不足那對於相關的投資可能也沒有相關的概念所以我們認為"},{"start":12468.248,"end":12494.836,"text":"金融財經素養可能是一個非常重要的前置作業也就是我們希望在高中階段就能夠讓一般的民眾對於將來的投資將來你可以得到什麼樣的合法的投資管道而不是隨便就在LINE裡面在臉書上面參與所謂的投資然後去買了很多根本沒有真正去買到的東西然後就被投資詐騙第二部分的電信詐騙的增加"},{"start":12496.616,"end":12508.822,"text":"當然NCC也對電信詐騙、電信單位尤其是我們的幾大電信業者做了很強制的規定但是事實上規定都有但是落實的不足比如說很簡單"},{"start":12510.615,"end":12534.646,"text":"要求銀行不得用簡訊傳給客戶之後然後讓客戶連結之後再去key入所謂的個人資料但是到現在為止還是非常多的銀行包括我個人都收到銀行的通知說你今天有一筆錢轉出去了請你連結去看你還是要求我再打一次相關的個人資料像這種中央單位都已經做好完整的規範的"},{"start":12536.327,"end":12559.828,"text":"內容厚,但是執行面﹑包括電信業者﹑或者是銀行﹑還是一樣沒有按照所有的SOP來執行也就是還是會讓很多的民眾﹑因為收到這些簡訊﹑可能連結到假的廣站﹑然後留下了個人資料所以重點不是還要立更多的法﹑重點是把現行的法規要怎麼樣子落實"},{"start":12560.785,"end":12587.227,"text":"所以接下去的是這些刑罰不管是在法院定罪也好就剛剛很多先進所說其實後端的執行面讓所謂的詐騙集團、詐騙者他因為受到的刑罰的代價跟他所獲得的利益不成正比的時候他當然會選擇繼續詐騙所以我們要做的是讓他很難得逞很難得逞非常重要的是前端怎麼預防"},{"start":12588.468,"end":12609.768,"text":"預防的機制除了人民的財經素養之外我們認為現在抓到的都是徹首都是人土賬戶其實真正詐騙集團的主腦或者是詐騙集團的這些相關真正拿到錢跟獲益的人他並沒有付出代價所以建構一個通報的平台"},{"start":12610.308,"end":12621.238,"text":"建構一個可以即使阻止他的錢金流流到詐騙集團的這樣的一個機制才是將來真正能夠懲治這些所謂的詐騙詐騙者為什麼因為當他拿不到錢"},{"start":12626.463,"end":12641.852,"text":"當被詐騙者將來告人頭拿得到錢才是最重要的也就是讓他的錢不至於這麼快的就被詐騙集團流出去所以我們要做的是比詐騙集團更快速的擋住金流"},{"start":12642.592,"end":12647.898,"text":"銀行業者、虛擬資產業者都希望建構一個完整的平台,而這個平台應該由政府來主導。蘇法阿普絕對有相關的能力來協助金融業者和虛擬資產業者。"},{"start":12664.116,"end":12678.176,"text":"因為有這個平台目前為止大概都在165或者是相關法務部調查局或者是警察局身上可是現在的這些平台業者可能都還是要統一的通報到不管是這些個別聯絡的單位"},{"start":12679.838,"end":12707.372,"text":"我比較意外的是還有發生虛擬資產業者他們發現賬戶異常他們必須用傳真機傳到165也就是說我們一個數位大國我們在目前為止在數位通報平台上面竟然如此的落後當你的錢不能即時的立刻的反映把它扣存或凍結即使抓到了車手抓到了相關的人頭賬戶又有什麼用"},{"start":12708.012,"end":12708.172,"text":"人頭賬戶的證明"},{"start":12718.362,"end":12745.084,"text":"出賣幾千塊就賣掉存摺的小朋友變成唯一的被告所以對於我們相關的修法立場來說就是希望第一個建構一個通報平臺而這個通報平臺應該由金管會﹐法務部還有訴發部大家一起來建置讓金融機構甚至包括我們的農會信用合作社都要納進來而不是單單只有銀行另外虛擬資產業者也必須要在這個平臺上面"},{"start":12745.825,"end":12747.046,"text":"謝謝黃委員 接下來有請張君倫律師發言"},{"start":12778.816,"end":12798.151,"text":"主席 各位委員以及與會的這個初期的列席的長官以及在座的法學先進後面發言有些好處就是有些就是已經前面已經講的寶貴意見我就不用重複了那我在這邊只要強調說臺灣在這個開發中國家來講的話是詐騙來講是世界第一"},{"start":12805.456,"end":12823.149,"text":"其他的在台灣前面排名之前的那都是未開發國家另外就是當然就查扣的這個金額來講的話最近幾年是暴增的這個事實上在去年11月的天下雜誌都有講過所以我今天只是把這個就稍微提一下"},{"start":12823.849,"end":12824.549,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":12847.737,"end":12870.907,"text":"特別是人頭帳戶的問題因為人頭帳戶他們因為例如說人頭帳戶事實上他有一種特色因為現在人頭帳戶已經不太會放的他放他們到外頭去跑了他們都會把他集中在一個地方去監控就是所謂的強控車跟弱控車的問題現在基本上已經沒有弱控車了就都是在強控車那強控車他們那個人頭上"},{"start":12873.308,"end":12894.607,"text":"人頭賬戶被解救出來以後呢他們可能還是一個受害人身份但事實上他們事實上是一個是幫助犯所以我不曉得說我們的這個有關機關到底在處理這個被救出來的人頭的時候到底是用什麼態度去處理的那再過來就是因為這個詐騙集團的那個分工已經越來越細了以後呢"},{"start":12894.867,"end":12910.434,"text":"事實上已經加入了一些新的成員就例如工程師還有銀行行員我特別銀行行員是很嚴重的那當然還有協力廠商就例如說律師那還有就菜商販賣個資的這些人因為我發現是說這些販賣個資確實他們長期經營的結果他們會掌握到很多很多的這個我們的個人資訊"},{"start":12920.518,"end":12942.931,"text":"那我待會還會再去就這個第二部分再繼續加強那但是我們先前已經講過說我們平台業者事實上就例如說Meta或者是Line事實上是應該刻以責任的至少就應該加強這個平台業者說停止解析這樣的一個行為因為停止解析的話至少就能夠讓這些網站不能夠觸及到一般的民眾以免上當然後呢"},{"start":12944.932,"end":12966.442,"text":"這邊這個是詐騙集團的一些分工我先跳過然後再繼續講因為目前這樣來講目前證券投資及信託及顧問法來講社群平台已經有說24小時之內下架了當然我覺得說如果今天你希望他能夠更快下架的話光是罰則恐怕是不夠的"},{"start":12967.162,"end":12967.762,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12988.391,"end":13003.724,"text":"事實上這些平台 就是說這些金融資產或者說金融機構 他們事實上就是透過賣很多的這些例如說你今天開戶了 然後就有交易 所以他就可以收手續費所以他事實上在這個詐騙的產業鏈裡面 事實上他們是有賺到錢的"},{"start":13010.41,"end":13035.971,"text":"事實上他們並不是所謂的完全無辜所以尤其是如果這個已經有銀行業者參與其中以後事實上KYC的機制如果不夠嚴格的話事實上他們會造成說這個很嚴重的這個就是說應該說是金融機構內控的一個問題那我們在目前打詐無法這個事實上這個條文都已經是不夠事實上都還是強度不太夠那我是認為說因為在這個"},{"start":13039.014,"end":13053.835,"text":"以歐盟來講2020年的時候推行數位出服務法的時候英國就為了制裁這個盜版遊戲網站就已經採取新做法就是用就傳統是說做傳統做法是找到網域登記在登記所國去讓他下架"},{"start":13054.896,"end":13073.294,"text":"法院直接命令國內六大電信業者不能再接到盜版的網站上去英國民眾才連不上盜版的網站最近英國還在考慮一個問題將社交媒體在詐騙案件中所應對受害者所負的"},{"start":13074.235,"end":13074.275,"text":"補償措施"},{"start":13093.338,"end":13115.279,"text":"而且這樣的話可以強迫社交媒體去積極的去防止積極防止他的社交媒體變成詐騙的工具不然的話你今天只是一個就是說如果只是一個行政法老闆我覺得還不夠還可能必須要讓他能夠領民事的責任因為例如說萬事打卡這個我就不講了因為"},{"start":13120.031,"end":13134.49,"text":"我就拿美國使用的信用卡的一個經驗來看因為美國的信用卡是比歐洲來的不進步一些歐洲的信用卡很快就進入到晶片的信用卡但美國為什麼還要死條"},{"start":13137.313,"end":13137.473,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13158.498,"end":13158.518,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13179.36,"end":13183.021,"text":"社交媒體和金融業者都應該對被害人負起責任才行目前"},{"start":13200.107,"end":13222.881,"text":"這個裡面這個框框的地方就是說第一個框框是那個所謂的菜商那是等於販賣個人資料那再過來這個第二個框框是所謂的機房那機房大概就是除了發話所以外是工程師還有電信門號的這個業務及數位行銷還有投資社群兼助理還有協力供應商那這個"},{"start":13223.721,"end":13233.707,"text":"特別是在去年曾經抓到有一個就是有一個業者他做了一個貓池他一台主機可以同時操控一千零九百零四個定卡"},{"start":13237.995,"end":13238.435,"text":"立法院第11會議"},{"start":13258.03,"end":13285.136,"text":"用一台電腦就控制1900多張信訊卡集體的打出電話來所以是第二類第三類的電信業者事實上我們必須要加以限制因為事實上這已經變成一個犯罪的昏床了然後再過來就是水房因為水房事實上是比較容易被抓到因為水房它必須要跟所謂的車房以及控房"},{"start":13285.836,"end":13286.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13305.696,"end":13327.046,"text":"一個詐騙案來講的話機房可能會分到89%的利潤然後是至於車房的話在射手或者是這個射手以及就是後面車房控房來講的話大致上來講他就是差不多只能拿到11%所以我們事實上大部分的這個大部分的利潤都是被機房拿走都是被境外機房拿走了所以我覺得說只能夠從境外機房"},{"start":13330.087,"end":13352.852,"text":"盡量的去製造他所謂的就是說詐騙詐騙被害人的時候的這個成本那成本越高他就他就比較不容易不容易去就是說比較不容易去進行詐騙那因為這個詐騙事實上怎麼講因為例如說我們第三方支付來講網購就會出現這樣一個問題你今天在網路上網購的時候"},{"start":13359.313,"end":13377.287,"text":"東西氣來了然後你看你才會你經過驗貨後才讓他付款那事實上我們應該可以把這個這個機制用在就是說這些境外的這個就是說至少境外的這個虛擬貨幣的平台上面就不能夠讓他馬上交易那這個當然是當然是"},{"start":13379.248,"end":13380.008,"text":"謝謝我們張俊仁大律師方便的話"},{"start":13401.138,"end":13401.298,"text":"何浩元律師"},{"start":13419.525,"end":13445.202,"text":"謝謝主席各位與會的專家學者各位長官各位先進大家好我是永恆法律事務所的何浩遠律師因為在轉任律師前曾經在新北電服務了大概10年多所以針對今天的這個議題雖然現在已經是律師的身份主要還是希望能夠盡量從基層檢方偵辦的一個地位來給大家一些意見作為思考"},{"start":13445.882,"end":13472.465,"text":"因為今天是最後一個專家學者發言所以其實相關的重點前面的前輩們都已經很詳細的提出了各種討論所以說如果要就這個提綱一一來做回應的話可能會有相當多的重複所以因為時間關係也有限所以我就是就個人在實務工作經驗上的觀察來點出其中幾個我認為是現在比較迫切或者重要的地方"},{"start":13473.186,"end":13488.318,"text":"那第一點我認為就是回應前面各位先進各位前輩的說法現在在偵查詐騙犯罪的困境的突破上我和他們有一致的想法就是認為在這個科技偵查的立法上應該是首重的一個部分"},{"start":13489.119,"end":13511.512,"text":"因為這個部分在現在的詐騙案件的案件類型的分布我們來做觀察的話可以發現最常查到還是人頭賬戶車手或者是取部手甚至收水這種比較下方比較外層的角色那往上的像是機房水房洗錢的這些人在偵辦上就還是會有一些查緝的困難"},{"start":13512.692,"end":13537.635,"text":"更遑論大家現在一直想要民眾現在剛剛的那個是調查也顯示民眾現在就希望這些首腦、主謀能夠被繩之以法但是目前在看起來是在比例上是很少的那這之間的差距我認為就是檢警調的偵查武器其實是跟詐騙集團現在越來越專業越來越分工細緻的這個對比之下武器是非常的不夠的"},{"start":13538.757,"end":13548.315,"text":"無法突破這些詐騙機關他們預設的這些在後續偵辦上的一些斷點然後在查到守蒙的這個部分就會有所一個一個障礙"},{"start":13550.057,"end":13572.81,"text":"那我們後續現在針對這個打詐專法我們當然是希望提高刑責來提高嚇阻力可是這個提高刑責的部分呢主要會是針對呢這個犯罪集團的階級去做一些區分那區分了之後當然就是守謀守腦或者是組織操縱的這些部分他的刑責會提高假設我們不能在偵辦上查到這些人那這樣的一個提高刑度"},{"start":13573.65,"end":13587.806,"text":"就形同是一個不常去使用的立法那相對上嚇阻效果一定也會比較少更沒有辦法去使這些後續大家要一窩蜂加入這些詐欺犯罪的人他們會有一個警惕的作用"},{"start":13588.567,"end":13604.454,"text":"當然這個部分是會在科技偵查立法上是會基於一個基本人權以及犯罪偵查效率他會有一個強力的拉扯這部分可能就會有待大家專家學者或是立法這邊的一些努力去做一個橫評的部分"},{"start":13605.274,"end":13623.667,"text":"第2個我想要提到的是因為之前在檢方服務所以跟檢方前面的同事都還是會有一些接觸就是聽到他們關於近期關於偵查輔助人力的提供譬如說有設置了一定員額的甲官助理的部分"},{"start":13624.828,"end":13649.668,"text":"還有另外像剛剛資料裡面有提到就是針對新興的科技犯罪或者是虛擬貨幣這些的查緝分析的部分也都有專責人員的建置那我認為說這個部分在方向上是值得肯定的但是應該也要持續觀察這個後效比方說助理的部分他能夠提供給檢察官的助力到底是針對哪部分有沒有有效的使檢察官能夠把他的時間精力"},{"start":13651.089,"end":13669.174,"text":"發揮在一些比較重大的案件那去減低檢察官花時間在一些繁瑣的工作這個就可以持續觀察的那再來就是現在專責像是虛擬貨幣這樣的分析追查的人員他的專業度到底夠不夠他在實際案件偵辦上會不會有不足那如果我們觀察後效的"},{"start":13670.507,"end":13697.533,"text":"過程中發現有注意的部分我們就應該把它繼續維持甚至是擴大建置這部分的人力那或者在無效的部分就是要來積極來檢討說有沒有其他補強人員的做法因為在這樣有限的人力下和辦案量能下如果案件增加導致檢察官沒有辦法把他的最主要精力發揮在這些應該關注的重大經濟甚至詐騙這些犯罪上那無形中不只這些犯罪無法被遏止受害的一定是我們人民"},{"start":13698.493,"end":13715.539,"text":"第三點我想要提出來討論的主要會是針對在這個追回不罰所得返還給被害人的部分這個部分呢因為先前這個自己在實務上的經驗以及理解還有後期在擔任律師部分處理案件的經驗"},{"start":13716.579,"end":13731.554,"text":"我發現在近年內比較大規模的詐欺或經濟犯罪基層的檢察官他在第一時間偵辦案件的同時也都會注重到去查扣一些不法所得或者是這些嫌疑人被告的財產那這個部分的"},{"start":13732.555,"end":13750.69,"text":"封棄的這個造成也是值得肯定的但是對於一般被害人的角度來看即使前面查扣了這麼多財產這麼多所得這麼多資金他們能不能夠在最後這個案件確定的時候去拿回他們應有的賠償這個可能在"},{"start":13754.674,"end":13776.452,"text":"實務上以我的之前因為擔任檢察官的時候曾經待過執行科那先前擔任律師的時候也有協助被害人就是去提告甚至是後去去請求賠償的這個案件我認為被害人在比例上能夠在最後案件確定的階段拿回他們應該得到的賠償從這個不法所得裡面來拿這個情形是比例是非常少的那因為這個被害人他會有什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":13780.902,"end":13796.79,"text":"他有可能因為這個程序的冗長他在中間不知道他該在什麼時間點切入去爭取他的權利或者說因為法律觀念他的認知上會有一個落差或者是不具備的情形那他們有意願要拿回他們的賠償卻"},{"start":13798.231,"end":13826.923,"text":"遭遇到重重的阻礙那譬如說呢我們政府能不能在這個時候透過一定的機制的建立上去給他們一點在專業能力上的輔助或者是協助讓他們能夠更積極的去保護自己的權益因為我們都常常聽說法律是不保護權益睡著的人但是當這個權益睡著的人他可能是因為自己的這些專業能力的落差或者是資訊上的落差他沒有辦法或困難去"},{"start":13828.143,"end":13853.257,"text":"去爭取他這樣的權益上那我認為在這個時候政府機關應該就有介入的空間譬如說可以提供法律專業協助啊簡化他們球場的程序或者是適時給予他們通知或者是告知能夠得到這個發動球場的這個機會還有強化一些能有效觸及的宣導這些我認為都是可以去考慮思考和設計的方向"},{"start":13855.756,"end":13874.134,"text":"針對我們專法的部分那剛剛也有提到就是說我是比較贊成那個像蔡院長或是幾位學者的意見認為說現在我們一直著重於提高刑度那要去針對這個首腦主謀或是這些控制操縱組織的人去給他們一些"},{"start":13876.056,"end":13903.801,"text":"民眾想要看到的教訓但是如果我們同時又不增加我們查緝到他們的可能性或者是最後定罪的機率那這樣的重罪的提高其實是對整體的這個詐騙的賀止是沒有幫助的那可是在專法裡面提出來這個下架機制我個人反倒會認為說或許是在前端就去做一個阻止或者是擴大損害的是一個有效的手段"},{"start":13904.622,"end":13930.155,"text":"那再來就是說在裡面也有一個部分他是要提供這些犯罪組織的參與者如果他們能夠在檢警偵查的時候或者是後續司法審判程序中提供有效資訊來幫助追回這些主要犯罪所得的話那能夠適用這個規定來做免除舉行就是這個是在政人保護法以外之外再給他們額外的優惠"},{"start":13930.995,"end":13953.451,"text":"這個部分我也是覺得說在方向上是值得肯定但是實際上最後要適用這個規定的時候在認定上會不會有一個困難是需要去思考就是說怎麼樣去認定他提供的資訊是追回了主要的犯罪所得那因為這是一個不確定的法律概念所以說後續可能就有賴法院這邊或者是更高"},{"start":13954.452,"end":13979.682,"text":"省籍的這些實務的見解來做一個確認那當然這個規定它的適用上如果真的有產生一些真的追回了這些不法所得效果那再搭配我剛剛提到的說就是後端這邊政府這邊協助這些被害人在有效查扣的不法所得又去取回他們應得的酋長的話那我覺得在人民對於我們打詐的公信力以及後續這個去"},{"start":13981.223,"end":13982.084,"text":"李坤誠委員發言"},{"start":14003.552,"end":14015.729,"text":"謝謝主席也非常謝謝有很多的學者、法律專家先進剛剛的一些說法還有一些解釋的部分當然還有列席的政府官員"},{"start":14016.721,"end":14034.475,"text":"那這個本席是有先來提出來這一個詐欺組織犯罪防制條例草案那當然是有鑒於說目前雖然政府有打詐無法那但是打詐無法這個效果是有但是還不明顯那所以我們是希望說那至少在有一些還不足的地方"},{"start":14034.735,"end":14034.955,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14058.477,"end":14059.238,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會"},{"start":14072.671,"end":14075.413,"text":"被判刑6個月以上的法務部資料大概佔了4成多法官的量刑的部分"},{"start":14097.888,"end":14098.65,"text":"在本席提出的詐欺組織犯罪條例"},{"start":14110.236,"end":14139.327,"text":"那其實也有針對這個納入這個量刑的準則可以供這個法官的參考那也針對這個電信業者還有數位仲介服務提供者那強制給予他們這個協助詐欺組織犯罪的這個防制義務跟責任那尤其現在這個所謂新興的犯罪在這個電信業者還有數位仲介服務提供者這方面這個他們的手法是日新月異那當然相關的部會也都有相關的做法那其實我們不管是在"},{"start":14139.968,"end":14140.048,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":14154.946,"end":14172.813,"text":"電信面這方面 賦予電信業者 如果知道使用的號碼是有疑似從事詐欺犯罪的話那是不是要有停止服務的相關法源依據第二個在網路面 那就是剛剛提到"},{"start":14174.033,"end":14174.053,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14189.984,"end":14214.716,"text":"責任但是因為他們沒有落地管理那所以其實我們在在管理這上面其實還是非常的被動那所以說在這方面那如何這一個綠定這個網路業者這個未來能夠落地管理的問題然後在金融這方面就是除了這傳統的這個銀行之外我們對於這個貨幣虛擬貨幣資產也要進行管理那尤其對於很多這個"},{"start":14215.623,"end":14215.803,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14233.869,"end":14260.612,"text":"這個新興的偵查工具剛剛相信有很多的學者專家還有委員也都有提到所以這個新興的偵查工具那我們是不是要有一些法源上面依據那我們希望這一個能夠抓到罪犯但是又要保障基本的人權那所以在這個有關於這個科技偵查法這方面我們也希望說是不是有相關的法源依據能夠提出來那所以說在未來在偵查的時候"},{"start":14261.152,"end":14261.512,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14282.031,"end":14282.571,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":14303.166,"end":14303.447,"text":"羅委員致強發言"},{"start":14333.484,"end":14338.442,"text":"主席還有我們所有的與會的專家學者還有我們的委員同仁"},{"start":14339.697,"end":14365.487,"text":"首先今天真的非常高興可以來這邊參加今天的公聽會事實上我有一個很深刻的感觸就是我們的詐騙集團已經上太空但我們的政府執法還在殺豬公真的是坦白講我覺得有三個地方都要加強一個是我們的執法的法制另外執法的科技當然還有執法的決心"},{"start":14367.328,"end":14378.656,"text":"今天來這裡其實就是希望能夠善盡我們去優化我們的執法法制的這樣一個工作跟任務那我們知道其實過去近年來這個詐騙的問題真的是越來越嚴重"},{"start":14382.419,"end":14407.795,"text":"我相信所有的委員在選區大概經常都會遇到選民來反映詐騙的問題我們陳情案裡面有很高的比重是有關於詐騙的問題我之前看到一個數字就是全台灣人民大概有94%的人都接過詐騙的訊息我非常懷疑那6%的人根本不住在台灣"},{"start":14409.396,"end":14431.377,"text":"我實在是很難想像有誰沒接過詐騙訊息而且近年來真的是詐騙的狀況的嚴重已經是非常有感了我就講我自己個人這些年來我不是講我自己我身邊的朋友就有非常多人被詐騙我的辦公室也有同仁被詐騙只是他後來覺得他被騙他覺得自己很丟臉他還沒報案"},{"start":14433.886,"end":14453.964,"text":"沒報案 他自己覺得那個損失不大兩三萬塊錢 他沒有報案可是我身邊也有一些朋友基本上一被詐騙的金額數十萬甚至上百萬都有那這是在以前其實坦白講是都沒有發生的事情以前就是我們聽到詐騙也是很嚴重以前電話詐騙對不對"},{"start":14455.385,"end":14476.309,"text":"但是你真的要身邊聽到很具體被詐騙的個案的這種情況現在真的是嚴重的非常非常多所以因此這種情況之下我覺得真的是不管是政府還有我們包括我們的所有的社會各界以及包括我們立法院其實都要到痛定思痛來面對詐騙這個既是國恥我都覺得已經是國安問題了"},{"start":14480.29,"end":14503.422,"text":"他詐騙的演變的狀況甚至演變到之前包括清普跟淡海那邊還發生集團式的這個所謂的把人拘禁然後施虐甚至還虐死這種非常令人髮指的事情那這些都是在顯示說我們今天有關於詐騙的那個法制有很多的缺口"},{"start":14503.902,"end":14510.525,"text":"所以最近我也跟這個很多我們的立法院的同仁也在思考就從不管是從我們講說法的那個針防程序上包括說我們的刑事法上法制上要做什麼樣的一個改變然後最近我就在"},{"start":14523.25,"end":14542.097,"text":"關切一個問題 剛有跟莊惠璇委員就私下有聊到說我們台灣其實有很多的在處境上的一些困難所以我們當我們在詐騙犯跑到海外之後實際上我們就經常沒有辦法是我們的這個法律的力量能夠所觸及的"},{"start":14543.118,"end":14560.636,"text":"這個情況之下我們怎麼樣去強化我們的政府 包括說怎麼樣在我們的國境之外能夠把這些詐騙的犯罪也能夠有相當的一個管制跟約束所以我們也在朝你包括棄逃遣逃罪"},{"start":14562.558,"end":14581.665,"text":"也包括甚至有關於說我們怎麼樣去透過我們的護照的一個制度注銷還是怎麼樣的制度然後能夠去增加這些所謂的外逃出境的一些詐騙犯他基本上他可能他會被抓到的一個機率把它增加"},{"start":14582.165,"end":14595.098,"text":"那當然我事實上也在透過質詢也希望我們的政府機關有除了說在執法上以外那麼也能夠去精確化包括說因為現在你看很多詐騙犯都是到海外去我們一邊是我們的詐騙犯是到海外"},{"start":14600.003,"end":14600.223,"text":"政府機關﹚司法單位﹚掌握資訊﹚"},{"start":14623.024,"end":14623.164,"text":"國民黨 民進黨 民眾黨"},{"start":14653.171,"end":14656.695,"text":"學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢政府機關代表請就書面資料以外的部分"},{"start":14673.995,"end":14702.627,"text":"在座補充說明那麼由於過去的經驗通常大家都很客氣所以我就按照大家提供書面資料的內容的多寡我就依序來詢問有沒有要做補充首先請教個人資訊保護委員會籌備處有沒有補充沒有 謝謝那麼財經公司有沒有補充財經公司沒有 謝謝那麼行政院打擊詐欺辦公室有沒有補充沒有"},{"start":14704.138,"end":14724.674,"text":"經濟部有沒有要補充?也沒有因為他們提供的資料只有一頁兩頁所以要先問國家通訊傳播委員會有沒有要補充?請時間三分鐘在場還有幾位學者專家跟委員如果要做第二輪登記的先在旁邊先登記"},{"start":14730.149,"end":14743.281,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位學者專家還有在場的各政府的官員通常要補充說明的就是在打詐綱領底下有一個三個很重要的三檢策略是減少"},{"start":14745.115,"end":14772.558,"text":"減少接觸減少誤信減少損害那通常會在這個原則下推行的一些措施那希望說能夠減少接觸減少誤信減少損害所以在剛剛協助專家所提過的裡面的電信門號的阻斷跟警示的部分通常會在去年開始實施就是境外來話的部分如果是偽冒的部分就加以攔阻那"},{"start":14773.098,"end":14774.46,"text":"有關於門號限制的部分,目前"},{"start":14789.242,"end":14811.615,"text":"在去年實施KYC的指引之後﹐那確實有產生一些效果﹐但是這些效果﹐剛剛學長剛才提到﹐它只是一個指引的方式﹐並不具備比較強制的力道﹐所以通常會目前也在訂電信事業用戶號碼﹐使用管理辦法﹐那目前這個草案要預告到3月25號﹐"},{"start":14814.336,"end":14832.595,"text":"今天也辦理了一個公開說明會今天學者大家所提的相關的意見比如日本的手機號碼不當使用法的部分所提的相關意見通常會帶回去在我們這個草案裡面加以延期另外對於電信服務剛剛我們電信產業發展協會"},{"start":14836.618,"end":14859.691,"text":"副秘長所發言的那個部分呢那在電信管理法有沒有需要再做一個更進一步的調修因為電信管理法在109年其實要施行了那也施行了3年多了那有沒有在執行這段過程裡面就如學者專家所提的電信服務的部分有沒有需要在精進的部分通常也會待會去研究那另外就"},{"start":14861.596,"end":14876.892,"text":"另外對於剛剛提的二列以及門號限制的部分,通常會有辦理的一個宣導跟行政檢查的部分,那我們會來持續辦理,讓這些門號的部分能夠有效的管制,以上"},{"start":14878.888,"end":14880.49,"text":"請問金融監督管理委員會有沒有補充"},{"start":14902.011,"end":14910.177,"text":"那再來是司法院有沒有要再補充沒有請問法務部有沒有要書面以外的補充有請次長"},{"start":14920.271,"end":14940.885,"text":"主席各位專家學者各位機關代表大家好關於今天幾個發言的重點跟本部有關的懲詐面向部分不外乎整理四個重點第一個就是提高我們刑罰的威嚇性的部分第二部分是如何制定偵查工具法制化的部分第三個部分是有關於被害人"},{"start":14941.725,"end":14965.641,"text":"被害金額的返還機制以及這個司法互助這個領域的部分第4個部分當然是有關於人頭賬戶的監理跟制裁性的部分那有關於這4個部分我簡單的回應如下提高刑罰威嚇性的部分這有兩個面向第一個當然是一個良性的問題這良性的問題是法官的核心領域就講了關於立場我們只可以就這個良性科型辯論跟科型事實調查"},{"start":14966.542,"end":14991.562,"text":"作負一個舉證責任：而且監督法官的判決那至於提高刑責的部分：很多學者專家都提到甚至有專家提到不應該要提高那這部分呢當然這是一個整個一個大方向那就我們法務部就整個這一個打詐專法提高刑法威嚇性的部分不外乎幾個面向包括這個刑法的分責的部分目前的這個相關的法律"},{"start":14992.443,"end":15009.241,"text":"打詐它現在是一年以上七年以下我們要不要提高到三年以上十年以下有部分的立法委員有做這樣的倡議另外要不要有一些犯罪我們把獨立刑責化把它提高刑罰這也是一個面向至於刑罰總則的部分很多些的專家都提到加重是有減輕是有"},{"start":15010.282,"end":15027.637,"text":"例如加重他是不是因為犯罪手段的殘忍性或者他是被告的守模或者是什麼樣的身份共犯的結構的不同給他不同的刑責甚至因為詐騙的所得提高一個刑責甚至剛剛我們林志源林教授也提到是不是因為他的脆弱處境的被害人"},{"start":15028.097,"end":15028.397,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15050.629,"end":15050.849,"text":"詐欺的門檻提高"},{"start":15065.966,"end":15087.385,"text":"科技偵查工具設計到通保法修正及科偵法修正這兩部法目前都已在行政院審議當中通保法就網路的流量紀錄我們把它訂進去了科偵法部分各位關心所關心的M化車GPS5我們都把它入法化至於有誰提到這到底要訂刑訴還是要訂打詐專法還是像我們目前的立法策略上訂一個科偵法"},{"start":15092.629,"end":15113.063,"text":"這我們都可以來討論但目前我們整個法部的這個初步立場是定在科徵法裡面不像德國定在刑事訴訟法去做這個科技徵法的法制化第三個有關於被害人經常金額返還的部分在偵審中檢察官如果能夠就這扣押的金額他已經能夠認定其實法律規定他能夠馬上進行返還"},{"start":15114.764,"end":15130.805,"text":"那如果說已經到達那一個確定之後我們目前法制上有緩緩的機制但重點困難是在哪裡?是在查扣查扣就涉及到我們目前的查扣法制其實是完備的只是因為到檢察官階段他查扣的已經緩不及急了"},{"start":15131.826,"end":15152.604,"text":"所以剛剛有委員就提到是不是我們司法互助要強化我這邊跟各位報告事實上我們現在司法互助我們近幾年簽了非常多的司法互助但是我要跟各位委員或專家學者報告司法互助去查購犯罪所得其實也是緩不及急重點是現在有很多的金融機關也好相關政府部門也好"},{"start":15153.384,"end":15172.237,"text":"國外簽訂相關行政政策上的MOU透過行政上的MOU即時做一些行政上的扣押或行政上阻斷金流這樣比起司法互助的後端請求其實會來得更快最後有關人頭賬戶管理的部分我們也非常同意"},{"start":15172.657,"end":15192.332,"text":"大部分委員的意見人頭賬戶其實在監理面重於制裁面在制裁面的部分當然我們大院在去年我們的這個洗方法已經就這個人頭賬戶已經訂了15條之一15條之二甚至在洗錢防治法15條之二的第6項也授權了訂了一個管理辦法就這個提供人頭賬戶他未來的賬戶的使用"},{"start":15194.514,"end":15194.714,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15210.399,"end":15215.363,"text":"未來在人頭賬戶的制裁方面﹐可以﹐達到一個立竿見影的效果﹐以上4點回應 謝謝"},{"start":15246.236,"end":15262.413,"text":"謝謝主席讓我有機會第二輪發言那也謝謝剛才NCC的長官有提到關於電信管理法跟電信法之間轉軌產生的問題那也跟各位報告按照電信 過往的二類電信在電信法裡面是許可制"},{"start":15262.933,"end":15290.535,"text":"是必須要經過主管機關NCC的審核才可以執行相關的電信服務但到電信法的之後呢他直接將它鬆綁完全不列入電信管理法的規管的範圍使得在去年6月30號之後也就是電信法跟電信管理法要做轉軌之後的三年落日之後呢所有的二類電信其實就不被強制要去做登記跟審查"},{"start":15291.215,"end":15318.386,"text":"那甚至於在這個電信管理法的精神上面也使得主管機關認為似乎不需要讓二類電信業者進行登記這也是剛才我提到的在電信管理法裡面因為所有從事電信服務的人都必須經過主管機關的審查確認他是否正當從事相關的電信服務但在電信管理法卻鬆綁了但是這也造成現在詐騙的破口所以"},{"start":15318.806,"end":15342.566,"text":"在電信管理法裡面很明確的對於任何從事電信服務者都有一般義務跟特殊義務如果你握有號碼或者是評估你要從一般義務增加到特殊義務但即使不握有號碼你如果要做電信服務的話仍舊有相關的一般義務要遵守譬如說確認你的消費者跟你的客戶的樣貌這就是我們說的KYC"},{"start":15343.787,"end":15368.929,"text":"所以因為現在的電信管理法並沒有將二類放進去這個所謂的規管的範圍極度強烈的期待就是主席這邊可以將電信法進入列入修法的範圍這是我的第一項的補充那還有一點點時間我就做剛才有些先進有提到說是不是可以乾脆用連帶賠償的方式要求金融機構或相關的電信業者"},{"start":15369.649,"end":15386.918,"text":"或者是任何的有接觸到詐騙訊息的人都負連帶賠償我只能說目前在國際上有類似討論的是新加坡叫共同責任框架但是新加坡他很特別會做這樣的討論目前並沒有入法但會做這樣的討論是因為他們決定將簡訊的發送來源做統一的規管換句話說"},{"start":15394.662,"end":15412.92,"text":"任何在新加坡境內要發送簡訊的人必須去他們政府許可的一個法人去做身份登記而做了身份登記之後呢你再做簡訊的發送那麼如果金融業者或者電信業者"},{"start":15414.478,"end":15425.963,"text":"願意或者是沒有去做他們所謂的官方單位的登記而幫他去傳送簡訊的時候有責任在上面必須要誇呼此發送來源"},{"start":15430.004,"end":15430.184,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15445.157,"end":15445.457,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15466.258,"end":15466.298,"text":"負連帶責任"},{"start":15486.536,"end":15486.796,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15503.322,"end":15520.405,"text":"好,非常謝謝劉副秘書長有請您剛剛提到希望本院對於電信管理法是不是要進行必要的修正因為它在從電信法到電信管理法轉軌期間二類電信的部分它的業者的義務可能就放鬆了"},{"start":15521.286,"end":15549.005,"text":"那剛剛你也提到了新加坡開始在研議要有一個連帶賠償責任要有一個共同責任框架那誠如大家一般常識所知新加坡當局他在金融業的自由度是相當高的跟世界接軌但是在言論自由上是不如金融業那麼自由所以這種情況之下他對於電信業者的規管跟刻意金融業者的責任是不是值得我們台灣來參考這也是一個不錯的因為每次金管會都會跟我們說"},{"start":15549.885,"end":15553.067,"text":"約定帳號次日生效改為次二日生效到底要什麼樣的基礎之下我們能夠去修改不去影響到國際金融的流通"},{"start":15569.758,"end":15593.413,"text":"但又能有效地遏止一般消費者在消費詐騙的過程當中損失金錢這些都值得金管會再進一步去研議的我想未來我們本院的委員會針對今天各學者專家的意見我們會充分地去做審視那麼適度地來對各相關業務主管機關或法令主管機關提出修法或質詢"},{"start":15595.295,"end":15609.366,"text":"今天公聽會的發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天所有的發言內容書面資料以及在現場印發給各位的有一份南洋台灣姊妹會"},{"start":15611.027,"end":15635.7,"text":"針對東南亞移工移民防詐政策的建言一份以及省委員發會所提的書面資料我們均列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員會及本日初列席人員參考那麼本次公聽會就到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":15640.575,"end":15642.106,"text":"趕快來跟劉秘書長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}