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我們已經馬上啟動調查我們一個禮拜內會有調查 這個莊署長剛剛已經有我請部長要加快啦 因為我認識部長也沒有多久我希望你能夠留下來好不好"},{"start":150.832,"end":174.839,"text":"我們一定不容許有職場霸凌的現象這不是個人的問題是說整個國家就應該要這樣子我們才是一個幸福安康的社會回到今天的主要的議題昨天本土小牙醫聯盟跟海外牙醫的家長在高等法院外面為了你吵架你知道嗎"},{"start":177.011,"end":181.46,"text":"報告委員跟我應該我只是代表對我們在前期在把過去長期的爭議"},{"start":186.834,"end":192.761,"text":"臺灣社會對於撥撥醫生不只是牙醫的部分直接一點就是說拿錢去波蘭醫學店洗學歷之後回來考照的醫生大家普遍都會覺得害怕"},{"start":206.897,"end":224.135,"text":"那部長你認為臺灣人民的健康守護者還是波波醫生的你認為你是臺灣人民健康的守護者還是波波醫生的守門員你的立場跟態度是?我必須要再重申我完全沒有特定的對哪一個"},{"start":224.996,"end":240.812,"text":"群組的一個部長那你可不同意啊中間有非常非常多的我也不曉得為什麼包括111年6月我們在這邊用心的來通過一個議事法的修法那個是我前程在這邊讓他那個法通過"},{"start":241.733,"end":247.956,"text":"我也沒有提任何一個互貸結議那好部長我請問你一個問題我有提互貸結議我知道我知道然後這個計畫也是幾年來也是在我們就任之前核定的對啦反而我上任的時候就覺得有問題你現在不要講啦我請問你啦好的醫療品質"},{"start":265.163,"end":276.822,"text":"有嚴格的教育養成我相信部長也認同吧那台灣的醫生的養成跟波蘭醫生的養成哪一個更嚴謹你覺得雖然我們有修法的沒有錯"},{"start":279.963,"end":308.489,"text":"那你覺得臺灣的臺灣的比較嚴謹還是國外的比較嚴謹我們所有讓他在臺灣行醫的醫師不管他從哪個醫學院畢業我們基本要求都要讓他有有品質能夠照顧人民的健康這是基本要求那至於說要比較良因為我家裡的第二代那個很多人當醫師年輕了一輩有11個當念醫學系通通是本土醫"},{"start":310.341,"end":328.733,"text":"所以我沒有立場去特別要支持我們來討論一下啦就是醫生的考試我一個臺大的醫學院的老師我當然覺得我們臺灣的品質非常的嚴謹我們的教育品質非常的嚴謹那我們來討論一下醫生的考試111年你剛剛講的修了醫師法第四之一條從112年開始用國外學歷參加考試"},{"start":336.778,"end":362.636,"text":"要先經過教育部學歷徵試通過才能參加醫師考試那國內要念醫學院門檻本來就比較高一點通常念到大三大四就會參加第一階段的國考那經過實習之後畢業後再考第二階段的國考才有考試及格證書號申請到衛福部的醫師證書之後才能夠算一個合格的醫師這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":366.79,"end":389.356,"text":"但是現在的問題裡面就是事之一裡面也有說兩個條件不用經過教育部學歷增試通過第一個就是在當地取得合法資格且實際執行臨床業務5年以上第二個112年12月31日前入學的也不用現在的問題是怎麼確認他在當地實際這個臨床服務這個業務5年以上"},{"start":395.899,"end":411.103,"text":"還有一千多名的波波醫生不用不適用心法你們準備讓這些一千多位這個波波醫生快速通關嗎好我想這個醫事師師長很清楚是可不可以請他回報告跟大家報告"},{"start":411.721,"end":439.491,"text":"委員好對於就是說在這個考試制度的把關的部分的話過去在還沒修法之前是一個裁認的原則所以其實對於就是說我們把裁認原則修在議事法實行細則這也近日快要將要公佈所以才會是說在把關的部分其實不裡面這邊我們的方向程度之前部長就對外宣誓的是說其實我們本來就是採取嚴格的方式來做處理"},{"start":440.491,"end":467.637,"text":"對我覺得這樣子啦就是舊法不是用學歷來徵是不用學歷來徵試那他們就應該用106年頒布的學歷認證去共識去認證我覺得是這樣不管用新法還是舊法都應該有兩道門檻我覺得應該這樣子會比較嚴謹那我也看到我們這個在當初我們修醫師法的時候民進黨委員一共通過七個附帶決議"},{"start":468.937,"end":477.173,"text":"那其中有5個部長都是連署人有一個提案其中有一個提案就是我們波波媽的委員部長還記得連署什麼嗎"},{"start":479.563,"end":504.844,"text":"報告委員因為我前程在嘛那有多互待結議是提供多元化的一個意見嘛我想大家委員都很清楚那我當然就是要三個委員才能成案所以我們當然是說如果有意見就提出來會議討論要到成案我只是連署讓他這個意見可以來討論而已我並沒有去提案"},{"start":506.105,"end":516.795,"text":"我發現我們現在有一個優化偏鄉醫療的計畫我怎麼看都感覺到你這個跟這個就是為了撥撥牙醫開的一個很順暢因為這個優化偏鄉其實是長久的事情"},{"start":524.341,"end":539.51,"text":"那委員可能看到就是有關於牙醫這個部分其實他其他部分是非常多要做的包括醫療轉後送等加強量能那這個部分我們政府經過這一段時間的討論已經在這裡面上禮拜重申我想總統有提到每年不會超過50名第一個每年50名那個結論不會提高"},{"start":553.058,"end":578.258,"text":"第二個我們一定按照112年6月通過的藝師法的修法去嚴格執行那第三個就是有關於偏鄉計畫的話我們只在牙醫這邊只限於55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮因為他們那個地方的確真的是需要你現在提到我們預算是不是要調整那個因為預算來處理這個"},{"start":579.878,"end":582.12,"text":"我希望我要講的就是說這些偏鄉本來醫療資源就比較少"},{"start":606.641,"end":627.972,"text":"那我不希望我們部裡面拿這些偏鄉的我們的這個國人來當實驗的一個地方讓我們這些伯伯牙醫能夠順利的拿到這個醫師執照我希望衛福部能夠更嚴謹的來看守這樣可以嗎我們這個計畫會做調整那另外我們苗栗這個九個衛生所也非常缺醫生"},{"start":629.033,"end":638.666,"text":"那真的這個醫生也非常的不足非常需要部裡面的資源請部長多多協助也希望我們會跟縣政府這邊來一起來討論看怎麼一起來解決好的謝謝謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時18分）主席好，還是有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。有關勞動部勞動力發展署北分署霸凌的事情，昨天何佩珊部長辭職負責，但今天又傳出，我剛剛看很多委員也在提這個案子，就是疾管署某組長也有霸凌同仁的情形，情況與謝宜容的狀況非常相同，你知道這件事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為最近都有一些……"],["邱委員鎮軍：來，我們先聽一段錄音檔，好不好？","（播放錄音）"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您聽一下，這聲音你認得嗎？你看他的作法是目的良善的溝通嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然我覺得語氣太……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你會不會比照勞動部來處理？"],["邱部長泰源：一定會啊，我們已經馬上啟動調查。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你剛剛講這兩天就會有報告，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一個禮拜內會有調查，莊署長剛剛已經有把整個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請部長要加快啦，我認識部長也沒有多久，我希望你能夠留下來，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定不容許有職場霸凌的現象，這不是個人的問題，而是說整個國家就應該要這樣子，才是一個幸福安康的社會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，我們就回到今天的主要議題，昨天本土小牙醫聯盟跟海外牙醫的家長在高等法院外面為了你吵架，你知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，跟我應該……"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們就是想知道你……"],["邱部長泰源：我只是代表衛福部在承襲，把過去長期的爭議，剛好到我這個階段，我當然是用最大的誠意、最大的努力來解決過去長期的爭議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道一直以來我們臺灣社會對於波波醫生，不只是牙醫的部分，直接一點就是說拿錢去波蘭醫學院學店洗學歷之後，回來考照的醫生，大家普遍都會覺得害怕。部長，你認為你是臺灣人民健康的守護者還是波波醫生的守門員？你的立場跟態度是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我必須要再重申，我完全沒有特定對哪個群組支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，那你同不同意……"],["邱部長泰源：這中間有非常、非常多的……我也不曉得為什麼，包括111年6月我們在這邊用心地在通過醫師法的修法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我有看到。"],["邱部長泰源：那是我全程在這邊讓這個法通過，我也沒有提任何一個附帶決議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，部長，我請問你一個問題……"],["邱部長泰源：為什麼一直講我有提附帶決議呢？"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道、我知道，你聽我……"],["邱部長泰源：然後這個計畫也是幾年來一直……"],["邱委員鎮軍：111年修醫師法第四十一條嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：也是在我們就任之前核定的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦，這個我知道啦。"],["邱部長泰源：反而我上任的時候就覺得有問題，所以就一直……"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，我請問部長，部長，你先不要講，我請問你，好的醫療品質有嚴格的教育養成，我相信部長也認同吧，那你覺得臺灣的醫生養成跟波蘭的醫生養成哪一個更嚴謹呢？雖然我們有修法了沒有錯，但你覺得臺灣的比較嚴謹還是國外的比較嚴謹？"],["邱部長泰源：所有在臺灣行醫的醫師，不管他是從哪一個醫學院畢業，我們基本要求就是要讓他有品質，能夠照顧人民的健康，這是基本要求。至於說要比較兩個國家，因為我家裡的第二代有很多人當醫生，年輕一輩有11、12個念醫學系，通通是本土醫，所以我沒有立場特別要支持誰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們來討論一下，就是醫生的考試……"],["邱部長泰源：但是以我是一個臺大醫學院的老師……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個我知道，我知道你的立場。"],["邱部長泰源：我當然覺得我們臺灣的教育品質非常地嚴謹。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣子，好，我們來討論一下醫生的考試。就像你剛剛講的，111年修了醫師法第四條之一，從112年開始，用國外學歷參加考試，要先經過教育部學歷甄試通過才能參加醫師考試，國內要念醫學院，門檻本來就比較高一點，通常念到大三、大四就會參加第一階段的國考，經過實習之後，畢業後再考第二階段的國考，才有考試及格證書，申請到衛福部的醫師證書之後，才能夠算一個合格的醫師，這樣沒錯吧？對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是現在的問題就是，第四條之一裡面也有說兩個條件不用經過教育部學歷甄試通過，第一個，在當地取得合法資格且實際執行臨床業務5年以上；第二個，112年12月31日前入學的也不用。現在的問題是，怎麼確認他在當地有實際臨床業務5年以上，還有一千多名的波波醫生不適用新法，你們準備讓這一千多位波波醫生快速通關嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個事情醫事司長很清楚，可不可以請他跟大家報告？"],["劉司長越萍：委員好，對於這個考試制度把關的部分，過去在還沒修法之前，是基於一個採認的原則，所以我們會就採認原則修在醫事法施行細則，近日就會公布，所以在把關的部分，部裡面的方向誠如之前部長對外宣示的，其實我們本來就是會採取嚴格的方式來處理，以上。"],["邱委員鎮軍：舊法是不用學歷來甄試，他們就應該用106年頒布的學歷認證共識去認證，我覺得不管用新法還是舊法，都應該有兩道門檻，這樣子才會比較嚴謹。","而我也看到當初修醫師法的時候，民進黨委員一共通過了7個附帶決議，其中5個部長都是連署人，而且其中有一個提案就是我們波波媽委員所提的，部長還記得是連署什麼嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為我全程都在，附帶決議是提供多元化的意見，我想委員都很清楚，而且要3個委員才能成案，所以我們當然是基於，如果有意見就提出來會議討論，而我只是連署讓他的這個意見可以成案、可以拿來討論而已，但我並沒有去提案。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我發現我們現在有一個優化偏鄉醫療計畫，但我怎麼看都感覺到你這是為了波波牙醫所開的一個……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，釐清一下，這個優化偏鄉計畫是一個長久的事情，委員看到的可能就是有關於牙醫的部分，但是它其他部分是有非常多要做的，包括醫療轉後送、加強量能等等，這個部分我們政府經過這一段時間的討論，已經在上禮拜有所重申，我想總統也有提到。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！總統有提到每年不會超過50名，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：第一個，原來每年50名的那個，絕對不會提高。第二個，我們一定按照112年6月通過的醫療法修法內容嚴格執行。第三個，有關於偏鄉計畫，在牙醫部分，只限55個沒有牙醫師的鄉鎮，因為他們那些地方的確真的是需要牙醫師……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我們的預算是不是又要調整？"],["邱部長泰源：用預算來處理、來鼓勵這55個，其實也是很需要的，因為我們會鼓勵他到衛生所，而衛生所一定沒有牙科設備，所以就必須買牙科設備給他，此外，還要給他保障薪水……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我知道，現在我的時間也到了，所以我的立場是……"],["邱部長泰源：請放心，偏鄉這55個完全是有醫師執照的，而且是本國優先，就是這樣子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要講的是，這些偏鄉本來醫療資源就比較少，我不希望我們部裡面拿這些偏鄉的國人來當實驗的對象，讓我們這些波波牙醫能夠順利地拿到醫師執照，我希望衛福部能夠更嚴謹地來看守，這樣可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們這個計畫會做調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們苗栗9個衛生所也非常缺醫生，非常需要部裡面的支援，請部長多多協助。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會跟縣政府一起來討論，看怎麼樣一起來解決。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好的，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。報告委員會，我們在蘇清泉委員質詢完之後休息10分鐘。"],["主席（邱委員鎮軍代）：接下來我們請蘇清泉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}