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謝謝前委員部長還有醫事司長還有口腔師司長部長辛苦了我看你在回答問題非常小心非常好我昨天問那個勞動部部長他昨天 你們昨天就任滿半年"},{"start":30.38,"end":33.064,"text":"昨天11月20號520你自己打幾分我從來不會為自己打分數我只知道要繼續努力這樣子"},{"start":46.69,"end":71.805,"text":"你也知道衛福部很沒用的沒用到沒命沒錢衛福部加大越大又那麼多部立醫院就只有所屬就怕死人很多所以不會出事我才奇怪出事才剛剛好而已所以我還是跟大家一起戰戰兢兢那我現在今天要跟你延續講這個"},{"start":73.946,"end":99.638,"text":"國外醫師我們不要講波波講波波有點鄙視還有看不起人家我深深的不以為然我今天在這邊很震動的講我不偏袒本土的牙醫還有波波回來的牙醫講這樣是很難聽這個問題是從馬英九時代到現在都一直延續那我現在請問你一個問題你們去年修改"},{"start":100.938,"end":108.763,"text":"醫療法之後那今年出去念書的念醫學跟牙醫他們要報備嗎有沒有減少不用報備"},{"start":112.939,"end":133.828,"text":"請補充一下因為就學是個人自由所以這個地方是不用報備是回來考試的時候申請這邊會從那個考選部跟教育部這邊學歷認證這邊到底有沒有問題可不可以考試是從那邊開始有資料以上所以你沒有在關你要去立法院不關就對了"},{"start":134.648,"end":156.749,"text":"但是從今年入學的我跟大家報告從今年入學到國安院醫生回來都必須要考鑑定考試鑑定考試及格力鑑定不管你是從九大地區從美國英國回來都要嘛那我是覺得台灣有點開倒車啦"},{"start":158.615,"end":177.775,"text":"以前在馬英九時代是九大地區回來的不用考Pretest直接可以考第一階段Part 1嘛對不對啊Part 1考過之後就可以當實習實習一年之後再臨床醫學考過OSCE考過就可以考Part 2嘛"},{"start":178.636,"end":188.98,"text":"趴住之後就拿到醫師證書就進入PGY現在兩年以後做過全年醫師全年律師診保定也做過管道要比較廣全世界養育這麼多以前九大地區的時候是包括歐盟"},{"start":203.874,"end":230.635,"text":"包括歐盟那舊的歐盟是有15個國家後來有新的歐盟加進去像波蘭、匈牙利、羅馬尼亞、保加利亞那些加進去捷克等等有10個國家所以現在才有15加10有25個國家那我們不能認定什麼舊歐盟跟新歐盟歐盟是一體的所以才搞成現在這個問題嘛不然這樣就對了喔稍微非常清澈"},{"start":234.624,"end":256.458,"text":"中華民國的國民只要他中華民國籍他就要受憲法的保障他因為婚姻遷徙或者是父母親譬如我認識的很多外交官很多那個外貿協會的他們父母親派入在國外啊 孩子就一定在那裡讀書啊啊 帶他回來他如果有讀什麼的 他回來"},{"start":261.201,"end":264.383,"text":"他要怎麼規定幾關幾輪一直一直你層層關卡也OK但是他只要考得過一關一關考得過又有實習又有什麼他就是一個合格的醫師嘛"},{"start":285.441,"end":296.198,"text":"那臺灣的本土的醫生畢業的當然很強啊 因為大家都這樣走過來喔 很累的但是有沒有那樣你就洗個底面 不是餒"},{"start":300.185,"end":316.821,"text":"我在考選部那邊也當過委員那個國外像美國紐約大學回來的牙醫系的他想回來我看他的學歷他成績非常好啊這種不能讓他回來也現在不能實習胡說八道所以我們講事情要講大家聽得下去"},{"start":321.909,"end":329.897,"text":"你也只剝剝剝剝,一天到晚都剝剝,這樣在人家鄙視,獵巫,說到不值一提,禮拜天又要來遊行,然後我們黨團一直表演表示意見,我們,我也沒有在這邊,也沒有在那邊,可能比較公正,我們酒酸冷酸嘛,對不對,那你回來的,"},{"start":344.601,"end":362.857,"text":"從今年在國外不管你在美國在英國在哪裡你念醫學院醫學系回來台灣都要考鑑定考試嘛PRETEST是很難過的及格率我看還沒有到10%喔有一年我給他查才6%啊牙醫師6%嘛牙醫師6%嘛那很夭壽 我跟你講齁"},{"start":367.728,"end":380.191,"text":"好啦那今天這樣也是唸了然後回來趴萬也考過了然後現在在那邊等待實習然後你就說我一定要一年只能50個我前幾天到離港有一個在賣牛肉麵的阿嬤桑 她的祖母就是去波蘭塔亞裔回來結果也趴萬課過了"},{"start":393.968,"end":397.471,"text":"所以說那個柏蘭特赤都好惹人,好笑,錯啦,不一定是這樣那小孩子有意願,媽媽就站在那裡去託,這樣考過囉我說你現在在幹嘛?他說現在在賣化妝品我說怎麼了?他說在等啊,等實習啊我說你要等多久?他說他算什麼要等八年啊"},{"start":421.489,"end":436.889,"text":"請你備名所以這個也沒道理所以這個是人家考過在那邊等待實習的那你把他踐踏把他汙名化然後讓他不能實習部長你要怎麼做"},{"start":438.767,"end":453.9,"text":"你也很小心在回答我想這個都有歷史的一個演變我想剛剛莊委真的非常瞭解到整個脈動那我們都是在解決這些長期的爭議當然以大家的"},{"start":455.714,"end":466.918,"text":"我想國際牙醫這邊當然是不滿意50名非常的限額我們的本土牙醫這邊當然是希望降低我想這個一直多年來一直在爭議這個問題我講兩個例子"},{"start":470.598,"end":485.463,"text":"我們馬來西亞的臺灣人喔欸 華僑回來臺灣念書念高雄醫學院念完在我們醫院在長庚然後到長衛科專科醫師然後帶娶臺灣老婆回到馬來西亞"},{"start":487.183,"end":496.427,"text":"當然這在台灣唸書也是國外嘛馬來西亞就承認台灣的儀式執照 免課但是這條路你要去偏鄉給他六年所以他就乖乖的從某處走去東馬"},{"start":503.45,"end":507.872,"text":"所以各國的不一樣的平和制度﹐考試制度或者是認定制度﹐我們都尊重"},{"start":528.258,"end":543.937,"text":"所以不同的國家的認定方式我們自己有自己的方法這個在當市長的時候你們都通過了嘛市長的時候另外一個我講更嚴肅的我們的中醫市長以前中醫"},{"start":549.376,"end":570.34,"text":"中醫師沒考的時候中醫師是用特考捏特考是什麼意思我們年輕人可能都忘光了搞不好你們要出生啦中醫師可以去考檢定考試考完檢定考試就等於是高等檢定考試考過之後你就有資格去考中醫師特考結果呢會念書都考得上欸 那種的有幾個中醫特考考的有幾個幾千個"},{"start":582.403,"end":591.168,"text":"中醫特稿過的人數目前大概是佔整個中醫職業人數的4成多4成多 聽好 以前更多還要扣到都什麼種的 書磚比較不會還是軍裝比較不會 因為那些要背 要托 背到要死 中醫的東西 要我拖下來 這樣扣過"},{"start":607.897,"end":618.462,"text":"課過後他課高等檢定考試課過後他就課中醫特考課過後他就中醫書了喔對不對那十尊比較的老師都教他讀書喔這樣他真的要做中醫書請問他的醫學的訓練夠嗎"},{"start":624.761,"end":652.696,"text":"所以我們中醫中醫衛生部才把他們一個一個都找去中國醫藥大學去專門做醫師養成教育基礎醫學上面直接去補兼這個就是時代的產物那現在呢要考沒有中醫特考了對不起現在只有中醫系政科的才可以考對不對這樣對不對是是是所以中藥三也一樣頂頂所以我是覺得這一件事情"},{"start":653.616,"end":662.826,"text":"既然他們禮拜天又要上街頭我想衛福部你要好好的來處理啦阿也不可以這個事變成這樣不可以頭瞞在沙子裡面齁這些人300多個人過了嘛齁你說月科科會趴萬欸國際牙醫這個喔"},{"start":675.578,"end":676.339,"text":"賴總統本身是好意識的"},{"start":693.851,"end":698.076,"text":"臺灣的護衛醫系還是臺灣的護衛醫系獲得到國外訓因為婚姻遷徙什麼什麼一大堆因素我不知道"},{"start":715.134,"end":727.296,"text":"反正只要他們有學歷回來我們就要面對啦不然一昧著說這樣就全部排斥我不為誰啦但是我們還是要解決問題啦"},{"start":728.24,"end":735.347,"text":"我們會勇於面對 勇於面對這樣的長久下來的一個 這是我們政府跟專業團體的責任因為希望真的在提供民眾最好的一個醫療品質跟環境以外 怎麼樣解決長期的紛爭"},{"start":751.844,"end":774.697,"text":"如果舊的問題,我們是不是用更好的方法、更新的方法來解決?那,也,其實這一段期間我們也跟本土小孩也做了最公開、坦誠的一個互動也修改了一個,也修改了它的內容所以譬如說偏鄉者現在就不會去做任何實習的這個部分這個有一點違反剛剛蘇昭偉所提的"},{"start":775.58,"end":791.732,"text":"一個那個但是沒辦法因為這個這個我們為了減少爭議趕快大家好好的去洗衣去行衣那個不要讓讓社會更加的平和民眾需要的是我們大家的照顧偏鄉需要的是好的醫師願意下去照顧他們"},{"start":792.938,"end":808.265,"text":"我最後講一個就是你今年開始全世界不管先進國家中等國家或怎麼樣這些醫學院的學生要來台灣畢業要來考台灣的證照都必須要考鑑定考"},{"start":809.105,"end":823,"text":"而且鑑定考試很難考我不曉得臺灣接下來這樣是會進步還是會退步你只有全部都是本土的本土的美國的也回不來英國的也回不來這樣不好進行結婚"},{"start":827.726,"end":855.208,"text":"報告委員其實像我們仿照美國好了美國的那種國際學程很多有名的大學也是有國際學程但是他們的訓練是蠻扎實我們台灣的醫學院畢業也是要進入國際學程經過一個安格的訓練然後也可以考照那這個percentage大概也差不多是我們現在8%左右8到10%所以這個50個名額其實是看起來是以國際比較起來是還算合理"},{"start":856.088,"end":870.352,"text":"因為國際像美國的名大學也都是大概這個percentage最後我跟大家報告這個因為我有去研究美國的本土的美國人要簽他們的議案他也沒有在外面簽議約的簽不到了喔有退後喔"},{"start":875.646,"end":878.187,"text":"全無料他就去加拿大請議員或是美國的屬地波多利哥、格羅納達因美國的議員會去他設婚校美國人就直接跑到那邊去念那念是不是比照美國的學歷當然啊"},{"start":896.317,"end":912.219,"text":"因為他有一段時間實習是回美國那是美國的屬地再申請不到的就跑到波蘭東歐去那所以他們也會開一個英文班的專班那是要迎合美國、加拿大的學生要去的"},{"start":913.72,"end":930.711,"text":"臺灣人去那裡是在教育的隨班互讀的全程英文教學所以你說那些人到西班牙到哪裡去念的醫生去那邊受訓很差很差很差不要這樣講啦"},{"start":932.612,"end":932.752,"text":"蘇清泉委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":462,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時29分）謝謝邱委員，請部長還有醫事司司長，還有口腔司司長。部長，辛苦了。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你在回答問題時非常小心，非常好，我昨天問勞動部部長，從520就任，昨天11月20日你們就任滿半年，所以你給自己打了幾分，一樣的問題來問你一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我從來不會為自己打分數，我只知道要繼續努力，你也知道衛福部很忙的，忙到沒日沒夜的。"],["蘇委員清泉：衛福部家大業大，人又那麼多，部立醫院所屬的單位就嚇死人的多了，所以不出事才奇怪啦！出事是剛好而已，所以我還是跟大家一起戰戰兢兢啦！我今天要跟你延續地談國外醫師，我們不要講波波，講波波似乎有點鄙視，還有看不起人家，我深深的不以為然，我今天在這邊很鄭重的講，我不偏袒本土的牙醫或是波波牙醫，這樣講很難聽。","這個問題從馬英九時代到現在都一直在延續，我現在請問你一個問題，你們去年修改醫療法之後，今年出去唸醫學跟牙醫的，他們是要報備的，請問人數有沒有減少？"],["劉司長越萍：不用報備。"],["蘇委員清泉：不用報備？"],["劉司長越萍：補充一下，因為就學是個人自由，所以這個地方是不用報備的，至於要回來考試的時候，相關的申請會從考選部跟教育部這邊來進行學歷認證，看看到底有沒有問題、可不可以考試，所以是從那邊開始有資料的，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你沒有在管去哪裡讀就對了，我跟大家報告，從今年入學的、到國外唸醫學院的，回來後都必須考鑑定考試。"],["邱部長泰源：對，學歷鑑定。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個鑑定就是pretest，不管你是從美國或英國回來，只要從九大地區回來的都要。"],["邱部長泰源：是！是！是！"],["蘇委員清泉：我是覺得臺灣有點開倒車，以前在馬英九時代是九大地區回來的不用考pretest，直接可以考第一階段（Part 1），對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：Part1考過之後就可以實習，實習一年之後，再臨床醫學考過、OSCE考過，就可以考Part2，Part2後就拿到醫師證書，就進入PGY，現在是兩年，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：是！"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我做過醫師全聯會理事長，部長也做過。"],["邱部長泰源：很辛苦的。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以高度要高一點啦！全世界的醫學院這麼多，卻只有抓波波，以前九大地區的時候，是包括歐盟的，舊的歐盟有15個國家，後來有新的國家加入歐盟，像波蘭、匈牙利、羅馬尼亞、保加利亞、捷克等等有10個國家，所以現在才有15加10，有25個國家，但我們不能認定有什麼舊歐盟跟新歐盟，歐盟是一體的，所以才搞成現在這個問題，部長，這樣說對吧？"],["邱部長泰源：召委非常的清楚。"],["蘇委員清泉：中華民國的國民，只要他是中華民國籍，就要受憲法的保障，他因為婚姻、遷徒或者是父母親的緣故，像我認識很多外交官、很多外貿協會的，就是父母親派駐在國外，孩子當然一定會在那邊讀書，譬如說，他在當地讀法律系然後回來要考律師，你可以不讓他考嗎？沒有道理嘛！他讀牙醫、讀醫學，他回來考試，你要規定需經過幾關、幾輪，就算層層關卡也OK，但是他只要一關一關考得過，然後又有實習，又有什麼的，他就是一個合格的醫師。臺灣本土醫學院畢業的，當然很強啊！因為大家都是這樣熬過來的，十分辛苦，但你就真的是世界第一名嗎？不是！我在考選部那邊也曾當過委員，像國外美國紐約大學牙醫系的想回來，我看他的學歷、成績非常好，這種的不讓他回來，也限制他不能實習？胡說八道！所以講話要讓大家聽得下去，你們一天到晚講波波、波波，這樣鄙視、獵巫，講到不值一提。禮拜天人家要來遊行，黨團一直要我們表示意見，我不為這邊，也不為那邊，我們比較公正，我們就事論事，對不對？從今年不管是在美國、在英國或在哪裡，只要在國外念醫學院、醫學系，回來臺灣都要考鑑定考試，pretest這種考試很難，及格率不到10%！我查了，有一年才6%！"],["邱部長泰源：牙醫師6%。"],["蘇委員清泉：牙醫師6%？真的很「夭壽」！人家也是念了，回來後Part 1也考過了，現在在等待實習，結果你說一年只能50個。我前幾天到里港，一個賣牛肉麵的歐巴桑，他女兒去波蘭讀牙醫回來，Part 1考過了，媽媽賣牛肉麵。有人說去波蘭讀書的都是有錢人？騙人的！錯！不一定是這樣！其實是小孩子有意願，所以媽媽就省吃儉用讓孩子去讀書，這孩子考過了，我問他現在在幹什麼？他說現在在賣化妝品。我說怎麼了？他說等實習啊。我說要等多久？他算一算要等八年，等八年乾脆不要做了！這樣實在沒道理。人家是考試通過在等實習，結果你踐踏他，還把他污名化，讓他不能實習？部長，你要怎麼辦？我知道你很小心在回答。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這是有歷史演變的，召委非常了解整個脈絡，讓我很敬佩，我們的目的都是為了解決這些長期的爭議。我想國際牙醫這邊當然是不滿意，畢竟有50名的限額；至於本土小牙醫這邊當然是希望能降低，這是多年來一直在爭議的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：我講兩個例子做說明。一名馬來西亞華僑來臺灣在高雄醫學院念書，念完在我們醫院服務，然後再到長庚擔任腸胃科專科醫師，娶臺灣老婆回到馬來西亞，對他來說在臺灣念書也算國外。不過馬來西亞承認臺灣的醫師執照，不用考試，但有一個條件，要去偏鄉服務六年。所以他乖乖的帶著妻女到東馬砂拉越當醫生，到現在第三年了。他寧願放棄待遇不錯的臺灣腸胃科專科醫師之職，他認為回去那邊更有前途，更有發展。所以各國不一樣的評核制度、考試制度或認定制度，我們都尊重。不同的國家有不同的認定方式，我們也有自己的方法，而且這是你們通過的嘛！","另外我要講一個更嚴肅的，就是中醫。司長，以前中醫師人數不足時採用的是特考，特考是什麼意思？我想年輕人可能都忘光了，搞不好你們根本還沒出生。中醫師可以參加檢定考試，考完檢定考試等於通過高等檢定考試，之後就有資格考中醫師特考，結果會唸書的都考上，請問通過中醫特考的有幾個？幾千個！"],["邱部長泰源：請司長。"],["蘇司長奕彰：通過中醫特考的人數目前大概占中醫執業人數的四成多。"],["蘇委員清泉：四成多？聽好了，其實以前更多！結果考上的都是些什麼人？師專畢業或軍校畢業的，因為要死背、要讀，真的要死背，所以中醫的東西我沒辦法讀。考試通過後，也就是高等檢定考試通過後，再考中醫特考，通過就是中醫師了，對不對？師專畢業的老師都很會念書，這樣可以當中醫師，請問他醫學訓練夠嗎？就因為這樣，衛福部才把他們一個個找去中國醫藥大學做醫師養成教育，補強基礎醫學之類的，這就是時代的產物，但現在沒有中醫特考了！對不起，現在只有中醫系、正科的才可以考，對不對？是這樣吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：中藥商也一樣。我覺得這件事……既然他們禮拜天又要上街頭，那麼衛福部就要好好處理，總不能把頭埋在沙子裡當作沒事，這三百多人，考過牙科Part 1的……"],["邱部長泰源：國際牙醫嗎？在排隊的有645人。"],["蘇委員清泉：六百多個？"],["邱部長泰源：645。"],["蘇委員清泉：這六百多個要怎麼解決？總不能擺爛吧？這是高難度的問題，連總統也怕得要死。賴總統是後醫系的，從臺大復健系畢業後才去讀成大學士後醫學系，現在人家有意願要念臺灣的後醫系或臺灣的後牙醫系，或者到國外去念，因為婚姻、遷徙等一大堆因素，我不知道。只要他有學歷回來我們就要面對，不能一味排斥。老實說我不為誰，但我們還是要解決問題，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會勇於面對。"],["蘇委員清泉：勇於認罪？"],["邱部長泰源：勇於面對！"],["蘇委員清泉：勇於面對，嚇死我了。"],["邱部長泰源：勇於面對這個長久以來的問題，這是政府跟專業團體的責任，希望除了能提供民眾最好的醫療品質與環境以外，看怎麼樣解決長期紛爭。如果是舊的問題，我們是不是用更好的方法、更新的方法來解決？其實這段期間我們也跟本土小牙醫做了最公開坦誠的互動，也修改了內容，譬如偏鄉現在就不做任何的實習，但這有點違反剛剛蘇召委的意見，不過沒辦法，我們為了減少爭議，希望大家趕快好好的去習醫、去行醫，讓社會更加平和。民眾需要的是大家的照顧，偏鄉需要的是好醫師願意下去照顧他們。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後講一點，今年開始，全世界不管先進國家、中等國家或怎麼樣，這些醫學院學生畢業後要來臺灣考證照的，都必須先考鑑定考，但鑑定考很難考的，所以我不曉得臺灣接下來是會進步還是會退步。如果全部都是本土的，美國的回不來，英國的也回不來，這樣好嗎？只能近親結婚嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們仿照美國，美國有國際學程，很多有名的大學也有設國際學程，但他們的訓練滿紮實的。我們臺灣醫學院學生畢業後也要進入國際學程，經過嚴格的訓練後才可以考照。這部分的percentage差不多是現在的8%到10%，因此與國際比較，50個名額還算合理，美國名大學大概也是這個percentage。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後我跟大家報告，因為我有去研究。本土美國人若要申請讀醫學院醫學系，其實也不容易；若申請不到，就到加拿大申請讀醫學院，或美國屬地波多黎各、格瑞那達，美國醫學院會在那裡設分校，美國人就直接到那邊念。既然念了是不是比照美國學歷？當然，因為實習是回美國，況且那是美國屬地。若再申請不到，就跑到波蘭、東歐去，所以他們會開英文班專班，好迎合美國、加拿大學生，我們臺灣人去那邊讀是在「佮貨」，「佮貨」你聽得懂嗎？就是隨班附讀的，人家全程都英文教學，所以你說那些人到西班牙、到哪裡去唸個醫生，去那邊受訓很差、很差、很差，不要這樣講，人家……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，不過站在我們一起維護人民的醫療品質上，我們還是會從嚴來審查他的學歷以及相關的考試。"],["蘇委員清泉：當然。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定是從嚴來保障品質，當然也謝謝委員很多寶貴的指教。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長加油，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","接下來休息10分鐘。","休息（10時45分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：繼續開會。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":140,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-10","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","盧縣一","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","黃國昌","賴士葆","邱議瑩","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","涂權吉","吳春城","羅智強","張雅琳","羅廷瑋","楊瓊瓔","楊曜","王正旭","陳培瑜","劉建國","陳瑩"],"page_start":55,"meetingDate":["2024-11-21"],"gazette_id":"11310501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11310501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查中華民國 114 年度中央政府總預算案關於衛生福利部主管預算（公務預算及基金）（僅詢\n答）","agenda_id":"11310501_00008"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}